How Inclusive Leadership Drives Growth & Belonging 🌍 | Isabel Gebien | Changemaker Insights Ep. 15

Hi, Isabelle. I'm really, really excited to have you here today and to learn about yourself and to really look into what is your mission, how you became the person you are today, and to also ask you my favorite question at the end of the conversation. But with that said, I would directly love to get started and ask you, like, who is Isabelle? Yeah, tell me about it.

Yes, thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm very excited to talk to you today. Yeah, my name is Isabelle Dubigne. I'm the founder of Equality 365 and Podcast Goals. I've developed an inclusive leadership masterclass. I'm a mother. I'm a DEIB consultant. I am a systemic coach. I have— I'm a keynote speaker and a moderator. And who am I? I think I'm, I'm a very bold, loud person, um, so to say. Um, I'm a very genuine person. I like to help people and I like to pay attention to people and I like to understand, um, who people are. And therefore I do like to ask a lot of questions.

I love it. And how did you become the person you are today?

I think by heartache and pain, to be honest. And I know that sounds quite dramatic and very serious. I don't mean it that serious, but I genuinely believe that people become who they are due to crisis and due to obstacles in life. And that's exactly how I became myself and how I became the person that I am today. I've endured a lot of lack of belonging in my life. I've felt a lot of the times due to certain times of my life that I don't belong for whichever reason. And I think that's such a core, basic thing that all human beings need and want. So if you don't feel belonged, you cannot Fold out your full potential. And this is something that, um, yeah, that, that made me become the person that I am today.

And I love that you mentioned belonging because I also really believe that it's such a crucial part of really becoming the best versions of ourselves. And I would love to dig a little deeper here and, um, look at how you found then the belonging. it's not that easy to really find it.

No, it's not. It's not. Well, first of all, I think it's a process. I don't believe that you find belonging like right now and then that's it and then you're good to go for the rest of your life. I don't think that's happening. But I do believe that belonging, you find belonging when you look inside of yourself, when you really try to be your whole self, when you try to be honest to yourself and when you try to be whole from in a way. And I found belonging actually in my latest crisis. And that was when I became a mother because it changed my life like 180 degrees. I was all of a sudden, I found myself basically headstanding and wondering where I actually belong in this life because, yeah, I tried to apply to companies during that time and I wanted to go into a part-time position and literally no companies in Germany offered me a part-time position. And on top of that, I got asked, by HR, experts, specialists, managers, whatever. If I'm in my 30s right now, starting the 30s, and I had my son, and they were asking, okay, so you just got your first son, so can we expect another, a second child? And this kind of, I mean, how are you going to answer these questions? Am I going to be honest or am I going to lie? And whether or not they're going to not take me anyways, because they are believing, they are having unconscious biases and believing that I could have a second child and this could diminish me being a good leader for their company. So I didn't get the job. And this, yeah, and this situation basically made me realize that I want to fight for people in this society and also in working environments that have a feeling of lacking belonging and that feel like they don't know where to belong because I believe everyone belongs somewhere, that 100% everyone belongs somewhere. But I do think you can only find it if you are honest with yourself, if you're honest with your values, if you're honest with your morals, and if you live by that. And if you do that 100% and you're authentic, you will win and you will find your belonging and it will show up. And this is how it happened to me. So after this whole crisis and enduring this pain and heartache and not knowing where to go, I asked myself a lot of questions and I positioned myself in this life very well. And then this whole fighting for the right in the society and fighting for inclusive working environments found me.

You're doing many things right now, and I would also love to go in here. You're doing many things and how did it from like having, like having those, those feelings, not feeling the belonging, being rejected. How did you then, you know, decided to become a speaker, to, to build your personal brand, to build your own, um, business while being a mom? How, how, how did you, you know, approach that, the journey then?

Um, I didn't approach it. I literally, I literally just Did it like like I just said it found me because I I felt like I need to say what I believe you know like I I need to speak my tongue I don't know if that's in Germany no you know that in Germany you say ich spreche oder ich habe das Herz auf der Zunge so I speak my tongue I I talk what I believe in and I think this is what I started doing I um felt like LinkedIn at that time was the right surrounding for me to talk about things that I noticed about obstacles, about challenges, about unfairness. And I started writing about it in a very, very open, but also in a very hurtful way, I would say. And that got a lot of attention. And I realized, okay, there's more people out there that feel that way and that have noticed these challenges. So we need to change something. Let's find solutions for that. And that's how I started. And then I figured, okay, so people do want to talk about, about it a lot. So where can I build a platform where I open that space for people to open up about it, to talk about it, but also talk about possible solutions? So I started my podcast. And then when I started the podcast, I got all that information of different experts and marginalized groups. And I realized, okay, wait, What does it actually need? Oh, it needs knowledge.

We need to give wisdom into the society for people to learn about it.

And yeah, so that's the whole ride and it's still going and it's going up and down. You know, sometimes it's very easy. For example, you just mentioned the keynote speaking and the moderation. That's very tough for me because I have also a very introverted side inside of me. And sometimes I don't feel like standing on a big stage talking to people. You know, I'm very insecure in that way as well. And I think this is something we need to understand too. People are not what you believe what they are. Like, they have, all of us have different parts inside of us and we need to, um, yeah, respect that, I guess.

Yeah, I think both, both of us has like, all of us have like different side in us. And I personally also like, I get energy from, from people and like going, going out and, and talking to them. But I also need that space of, you know, being with myself and not having 20, 50 people around me. Therefore, um, I also love to understand how you, um, how you became, uh, how you got to the point where you're right now. And I'm a big believer, and we talked about it before we, before we, um, recorded the podcast, in meeting people and they show you sides of you you're not aware of yet, or they—

Yeah.

provided you with opportunities you would have never, um, gotten when you didn't meet them. And like, who are people in your life that you met that really influenced you and that really shaped you?

Um, I think honestly, and this might sound a little bit corny, but I have to say it anyways. Um, the, the one person that has shaped me the most is my husband. Because honestly, when I met him, I was so in awe of him because he's such a smart head. But besides that, also such a genuine and helpful person. And he would always put himself to the side for others. And that by leading people as well, you know, like he's not just— it's crazy to me. He's a very, very unique individual. And I like that when I get to know people and I feel like, I wish I was like you, you know, I mean, when you look at someone, you're like, I want to be like you. You are really in all matters, you are so in a way perfect, even though we know perfect doesn't exist. And he has shaped me a lot because he has allowed me to be in pain, to feel pain, you know, to be hurtful, to show weaknesses and to not be perfect, but also He made me realize that all people mean something and whatever we do, if we stand by our own side and if we believe in ourselves and if we just go our way, we will succeed. It's a fact. And I kind of had to learn it by his pep talks, you know, and this is something I will not forget. This is something, this is really important to me that, yeah, that there is people out there that believe in us more than we actually believe in ourselves. And I think we can start doing that. So yeah, he is, he's this one person that has shaped me a lot.

Love it. And you just mentioned like people believe more in us than we believe in ourselves. And I strongly believe every one of us has at least one person like that that really influenced us. And Isabelle, we love to talk about mission at Tomorrow University. It's a huge part of of who we are, of what the community is about, of what our programs are about. And I always look for, you know, more inspirations of like different missions and how people then live into the mission. And with that said, I would love to learn from you, what's your personal mission and how have you found it? I mean, we talked already of how you found it.

Yeah.

But maybe you also give a little glimpse into when you really felt like, hey, you have found it, you really knew, okay, that's what I want to go for now?

Yeah, I'm working towards, okay, my mission is I'm working towards inclusive leadership basically, but also and above all, I'm working towards just societies. I want societies to be fair and I want equal opportunities for everyone. And Like I said, I started my podcast realizing there's a lot of need. People want to talk about challenges, you know, that they're facing, especially when you are from a marginalized group, when you— when people try to tell you you don't fit in this society, even though you do, because everyone fits, you know. And structures are built a certain way, especially for white people, white privileged people in general. And I'm trying to kind of break that open and make people understand, no, a society should build for all types of people, no matter what. And if it's not possible that certain people can reach and connect with important resources, then it's definitely not fair. So yeah, this is my mission. And I found it, like I said, it found me. And due to the podcast, due to starting the podcast and talking to so many interesting personalities and opening my horizon, you know, opening my mind, But also I found my mission due to all these conversations, like I said, but also due to building my inclusive leadership masterclass and understanding what it actually needs. Like, what does someone who is totally defensive against what I do, how can I convince this person that inclusive leadership is necessary in our working environments, but also in our society? And, um, yeah, this, this opened up so many different levels again that, um, I think it, it, I can just like, I can just go on from here and I could do so many more things and I don't even know where to start and to stop, but this is basically how I'm going forward. And I think I forgot your question a little bit, but you said, what's your mission? I said my mission and how did I find it? I literally found myself, oh, One more thing, actually, I can add one more thing.

Yeah.

And I realized along the way, and that's the important part, I realized along the way that along my whole career when I was working for other companies, I've actually done the exact same thing. I was always this middle person. Like, I was basically always a consultant somewhere for big industrial companies. I worked for Porsche, for VW. I worked for Siemens Healthineers and Biotronik. And then I realized that I was not only a consultant in that matter that I was employed for, but I was also always the person that spoke to CEOs, that spoke to the HR, and that spoke to all the other employees because I was very good in connecting with people and understanding their needs, understanding the challenges. So I was like the middleman. Since I knew the challenges of the employees, I was able to talk to the CEOs or to the HR to change things. And when I realized that I can't necessarily change structures inside of companies, I realized it is time for me to step out of it and do it myself from the outside. And this is basically how I developed this whole career of mine right now.

Yeah. And what I hear out of it a lot is curiosity, like being curious how things can be different, starting a podcast, like getting to know a lot of other people, understanding how they understand it.

Yes.

And curiosity is a huge, huge part of that. And I mean, your mission is, it's a challenge, right? To get there and to make it happen. And it's great to know it and to have it. It gives a lot of energy. There's a lot of drive in it, but we need a community, like people who's around, like who are with us to make it happen. Who are the people on your side that partnered up with you, that partner up with you to really make it happen and to come closer to your vision and yeah, to build the society and to build also the workplaces and leadership that we need?

I think people connect with you when you are, and I'm coming back to the starting point of our conversation, when you are 100% you, when you are authentic. And then people start identifying with you. And once they identify with you, they start connecting with you. And when they connect with you, they are basically already like, you're already building a fundament, like a basis that will start something great if you intend to do so. And I think I believe in that, you know, it's, it's, it's, in Germany you say Gesetz der Anziehung. I don't know how you say that in English.

It's a certain attraction.

Attraction, exactly.

You show up as the best yourself and that attracts people who just love that you're not a version of yourself.

And that's it. That's it. It's that simple. If you are 100% you and you don't play someone, then people will automatically identify and connect with you. And this is how a network basically starts and how people will support you because they believe 100% in the same stuff that you believe in. And it starts with understanding your own values. This is something, sorry, the systemic coach in me will tell you now. Like, if you understand your values and what you actually need in life, then you will open up for others to connect with you.

And yeah, I could also ask many questions about that one, but yeah. And I mean, values, I think it's a huge part. It's also something as part of the mission challenge, which is the first challenge. Everyone starts by defining the values there, but it also very much speaks to me because I think we can only really have clarity on what we want to do with our lives when we have those values in place. But having that clarity is one thing, but living it is another one. And how do you really make sure that like, your day-to-day, um, your year really brings you closer to your mission? How do you constantly connect to it? How do you make sure that you do the right things, that you have the right priorities?

Yeah. Um, I think living what I preach. Um, I constantly keep connecting with people. I constantly keep my curiosity high. I constantly ask questions. I constantly try to listen and I constantly try to respect people by understanding that I cannot talk about them, but with them. And in my case, those particular examples are very important for my goal, inclusive leadership and also inclusivity in general in societies, to reach my goal. Yeah, that's it.

Definitely what I hear out of it is a lot Like really following curiosity, like really showing up as, as, as you're like really fully authentically, um, not playing somebody else, like really being you to really attract the right people that really let you live into your curiosity and live into your mission. And then also on a day-to-day connecting to it, connecting to their curiosity. Um, and really staying on track with that. I think that especially matters when you have like other huge commitments, like having a young son, having a family is a huge commitment in itself. And especially then it matters to constantly connect it.

And also, can I, I would like to add one more. And I think always being, you know, in a, in a sense, fearless or courageous to do and say certain things that might might hit the critics, you know, I think that's important too. And also follow your structure in a way, because it obviously, I mean, being a full-time mom and being a full-time founder needs a lot of structure as well and planning. And I do have a lot of planning, you know, like my list goes on and on and on and it doesn't stop basically. So I think that is very important too on a very technical side of it.

Yeah. I think you really need to bridge the systems. It's great to have goals, but you need to bridge the systems to make it work in the end. And to, yeah, not burn out, which is also hard when your passion is great, having a mission is great, but you need to make sure that you can do it over the long term.

Yeah.

We are already kind of at the finish line of the podcast, and I always have some favorite questions that I love to ask. Um, at the end, and one of them is, what's the best advice you have ever received? And I'm very curious to, to learn about that one.

Um, this is going to be a not so special answer, but a very, very deep answer at the same time. Um, I would say the best advice is, um, believe in yourself, stay true to yourself. believe in your mission and hold onto it until you get there and be patient along the way. And it sounds so blunt and easy, but this has actually, looking back to the, like, looking back onto the, I don't know, past 10 years. I've heard this a lot. Like people said, oh, if you believe in your dreams, you know, like this is, this is like believing in your dreams and you're like, do you mean believe in my dreams? Like, that's so bullshit in a way. But actually, it's not. I believe that because I've always felt what I'm doing now, but I was never courageous enough to do it. And now I stepped into my lane and I started doing it and I'm successful with it. And it only is because, of course, I do have a supporting system, but also because I believe in my idea. I believe that inclusive leadership is a necessity for this society and for working environments. And I believe that if I work hard enough and if I put my whole into it on an authentic level and genuinely, then it will succeed. There's no other way. And it takes time. That's the only thing that I'm not good at also. I'm not very patient, but it takes time. But I think if people really believe in their missions, they will get where they want to be.

Yeah, I love it. I love that you really emphasize belief because I think It, that's like the, the, the one thing that you really need to get started, but to also push through when it's getting hard and it's getting hard at one point in time. There's saying, believe, conceive, achieve. To, to achieve it, you need to believe it. And love that you, that you emphasized that one.

Mm-hmm.

Um, my second question, it's always about lessons and learnings and what's one lesson and what's one learning you made along Along the journey?

One lesson I learned along the journey is definitely those who ask win. And you and I, we just spoke about networking, and I think this is a good example. Networking and visibility is key nowadays if you want to be successful on your own in a way. And even though we know we're never on our own successful, you know, there's a supporting system, as I said, but Yeah, I would go that far. Like, you can only be successful when you start asking questions and when your curiosity overrides you in a way, you know, when you are not shy to ask for help, for example, when you're not shy to ask for, I don't know, like something that you don't know or to open up doors for you, you know, and this is something we need more. We need more supporters. We need more mentors because this is actually something that I was lacking in my career when I was applied a lot. I didn't have good mentors. I didn't have good supporters. But I do have to say, I also didn't dare to ask. So, you know, and like taking the responsibility for your own life is something very, very important. Like understand that you are in charge of your own life and you can make a difference by, for example, asking more and being courageous in that sense. So this is something I would say that I learned along my journey. A lot.

Yeah, I think that that's a huge one. Like, because I love to say the number of opportunities we get depends on the number of times we ask for it, right? And yes, that's so crucial. And we often feel like, hey, somebody will say no, or somebody will, you know, reject us. But yeah, but there would be also somebody that says yes. And I think that's what we should, that's what we should have in mind when we do that.

Definitely.

One last question, and that's a very difficult one. I know, but it's about If you could create one law in the world that everyone needs to stick to and apply, what would that be?

That would be equal opportunity and representation for or in all organizations, meaning that every organization must implement policies in order to keep their worth.

So to speak.

And of course, in terms of like inclusivity, you know, like chances of opportunity, because, um, even though a lot of people think and say everyone has the opportunity to rise, we all know it's not true because certain people have different starting points than others. And I would like to change that. And I think it needs policies. and implementations such as that, um, in organizations to really, really have a big impact and change something.

Yeah, I think it even starts earlier, like in school or university.

Yes, of course.

Um, but there's a lot to do in organizations, um, itself. Love it. Isabel, thank you so much for our conversation. Um, what really stood out to me and what I want to emphasize is like turning negative experiences, events using them really to get to know yourself, to really find what you wanna do. I think that's something that really stood out. Then having the deep curiosity combined with like a strong belief in oneself and one's mission. And then also like really using the power of network, right? We mentioned it, um, using the power of like connecting with others, um, and learning from others, asking them to, to support, um, to really also move forward and to make progress and to also come closer to one's mission. If I really take that one, that's 3 learnings away. There are many more, but, um, I really enjoyed it. Thank you, Isabel. And I'm excited to dive into the topic of inclusive leadership, um, in one of our events with the community.

Yeah, I'm very much looking forward to it. Thanks for your great questions. I really enjoyed that because usually when I go into podcasts or conversations such as that, you always get asked about what you do, you know, like about your work basically. And I really like digging into my own self, like my identity. Who am I? This is, this was very cool. Thank you so much.

That's a good one. Thank you, Isabelle.

Thank you.