Alicia Britt Chole on Finding Faith that Works

Every now and then there is someone who strikes me. I hear a message that they share, or I discover them on social media. Maybe it's a YouTube video, maybe it's Instagram, and I'm struck by them. Dr. Alicia Britt Sholey is one of those people. I bumped into her because we, I'm sure, have some connection of friends or peers online, and she showed up in my feed. And I felt her heart palpably listening to her talk. So she ended up on my list of people I wanted to interview. Don't know her, never read any of her books. I just was marked by her. And as she would show up in my feed continually, I continued to be marked by her. She did not disappoint in our podcast together. You need to know that not only did we record a podcast together, but within 2 weeks of that podcast recording, she ended up visiting my city. I live in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. And she texted me and said, "Hey, do you want to meet me for a meal and to get to know one another better?" I did. I drove 45 minutes to meet her because she'd marked me. And we sat for 3 hours and shared food, shared fellowship, and swapped stories. I wish I could tell you that this interview would be a sum total of all the things that I'd want you to know about her. It's not. It's a great start. I'm sure I'll have her back. What I can tell you is based on my interview and also my conversation with her face to face. This woman is someone worth knowing. Her rivers run ridiculously deep. I'm so glad to be able to share her with you today. Your faith is enough. And while life is going to throw some rocks your way and some mountains you actually don't want to climb, holding on to your faith is enough. And one of the things that I want you to know is that even when you don't have clear instructions for life and you feel like you're fumbling your way through it Just know that most of us are fumbling our way through it, doing the best we can with what we have. How you fumble through it though is your choice. Choosing to fumble through it, choosing faith, even if you have to acknowledge your doubt, is still a better way to fumble through it. Choosing to continually come to your Creator and ask for guidance, to continually come on your knees and ask for help, to come seeking construction, um, even sharing your anger and disappointment because he can handle it. Walking with faith is the way to go, and I want you to know that you can navigate your life steadfast, unmovable, even when the ground of life is moving underneath you. Your faith is not just a feeling, it's a muscle. It's something you can develop, and I want you to choose to develop your faith. When can you develop your faith? Anytime. But do you know when the muscle gets mostly developed? When you're lifting heavy things. Dr. Alicia has had her share of lifting heavy things. Maybe that's why we seem to have a heart connection. I've had my share too, and I agree with her when she says Building the muscle of faith, even when you lift hard things in life, is worth it. It's a journey and an adventure worth taking. And the ride is even better when you felt butterflies floating in your stomach, because at the end of the ride, what you know is that your faith will hold you. And after you get over the butterflies and the anxiety and bring your worry to the cross, You have confidence to tell the next person, "Oh, you should get on that ride. It may make you feel some kind of way, but it's the ride of a lifetime." I'm happy to share Dr. Alicia with you, and I'm happier to share her message with you. I hope you enjoy getting to know her as much as I did, and that you continue to get to know her. Follow her on social media, pick up her books, go to her website, because some people are just worth knowing. All right, y'all, here we go. Where were you in your journey when you met Jesus?

Yes, well, um, Jesus interrupted my life weeks before I was about to begin my university studies. I was in a program called Plan II Pre-Law, which is kind of an intensive liberal arts, um, emphasis. Always planned on being a lawyer ever since I was itty-bitty. I wanted to go into computer law and eventually run for office, and the dream was Secretary of State. So I had this trajectory that was in my mind. Um, honestly, Jesus interrupting my life was a combination of more things than I could probably count. He truly found me because I absolutely was certain that he didn't exist. I was convinced that there was no God, and my interaction with people of faith only seemed to cement that conviction. There were two young women who were really just determined to be my friend, uh, my last few years of high school. And again, we moved every year, every year to a different place. And so my last few years, uh, by that time, pain had seasoned my atheism enough that, like I said before, it had an edge. And I was extremely argumentative, just annoyed with anyone who had the audacity to proclaim the existence of a god or gods— make it plural, didn't matter to me— that, quote, held all power. But when I took a realistic look around the planet, it was very clear that he or she or they were not using their power to prevent pain. So if you wanted to believe, fine, but do not proclaim. But do not offer your belief as some kind of placebo to the masses. It's just cruel. And so when I met people who were vocal about their faith, whether it was my Hindu English professor or these two Christian friends, I was— man, I was debating and arguing and expressing my indignation. So these two girls, though, they gave me what I really needed, which wasn't an answer. I think sometimes we think the power of asking questions is getting answers, and I disagree. I think that the power of asking questions is building relationship and growing trust, both with humans and with God. And so I would ask them these questions, and they had no answers. But from the midst of their— and I do mean tears, like real crocodile tears— they would say, "I don't know. I don't know." But Alicia, I know that God loves you and I know that Jesus lives. And I don't know is a really smart answer when it's true. And we need to not be afraid to offer that phrase to people who ask us questions about what we believe and why we believe. I don't know built trust in our friendship, which kept us close. So here's what they really gave me. They gave me the present of presence. They gave me the present of Jesus's presence within them, Christ in them, the hope of glory. And so when they were with me, I was near their Jesus, and something in me started to thaw. Now, they couldn't see it, and I couldn't perceive it, but it was happening nonetheless. Graduated, still an absolutely adamant atheist, wasn't even a question on the table. And a friend's mom invited me to come visit them. And she invited me to church over and over and over the entire couple of weeks I was there. So finally, Chrystal Hurst, I just decided to say yes to get her off my back. I said, listen, I'll go once if you never ask me again. And we walked into this— I mean this with no disrespect— it was a pitiful church. It was just this little itty-bitty rundown on its last legs, literally. It was one of the last few weeks that the place was going to be open. They'd had a horrible split. And just the elder saints were present. The organ was out of tune, which I didn't know was possible. And I sat in the back row in my, you know, best purple miniskirt cuz I didn't, you know, I wanted to dress up for the occasion. So atheist on the back row is just thinking, you've got 2 hours and you're home free, Alicia. Your mama taught you right. Don't be disrespectful. Don't be caught rolling your eyes. You've got 2 hours and you're free. And so these dear older saints, maybe a couple dozen, stood up to sing. And when they lifted their brokenhearted voices, the atheist on the back row had an encounter with Jesus Christ.

The—

it was like waters opened up above me. I wasn't drunk, I wasn't high, I wasn't in the pit of despair, I wasn't depressed. The music obviously hadn't swept me away. They hadn't even given the sermon. Uh, there was nothing to woo me. In the culture of that room but God. And so for the next hour and a half, I sat under this waterfall of a presence. And I'd studied different world religions. I mean, I didn't want to just pick on Christians. They were more accessible, but that was rude, you know. So I had studied Buddhism and Hinduism and Islam, and I, I would have been intellectually open to any name But there was one that sounded, and I knew that this pursuing presence, I knew that his name was Jesus and that he wanted me. Had no idea what he was saying, but I knew that God's existence had to change everything. And so I just whispered, I don't know what the question is, but if you want me, my answer is yes. And I was carried into faith. A faith that has captivated me. Well, captivated me for over 35 years. So that's how Jesus found me. I didn't remotely find him. I didn't think there was any God to find.

You have, um, a doctorate degree.

Yes, ma'am.

In what?

Leadership and spiritual formation.

When did you get this?

I think I started in— I was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2013, and I was right in the middle of my program. So I think it was 2012 to 2015, those 3 years.

Because this is how life happens. We're right in the middle of dealing with major health situations. At the same time, we committed to challenge our mind to the fullest.

Yes. Yes. Oh, wow. Yeah, it was a beautiful experience for me. I was out at George Fox Seminary, and they've renamed themselves the Portland Seminary now. But I tell you what, Chrystal Hurst, I— studying for me, it's like eating dessert and only growing muscle.

I—

it just tastes so good. And I, I love it. I absolutely love learning.

So before this, what were you doing with your life? I know that you have the MA in education, so from— for the, the life before— and I know that there's, there's always a mix-in because God is always leading us to where he wants us to go, and then you look back and all these things were building to the thing, but what would you have said occupied the major 20-year decade, 25-year decade.

Yes.

Of your life, apart from what you're doing now.

Yes. Well, I, I think I've almost always been doing what I do now.

Yeah.

I think I'm a people grower. I, I absolutely love coming alongside of people and caring for their soul, helping them whether it's an individual, which I love, small groups, or a big group, helping people realize that God never wanted to use them. He always wanted to love them, and that their first ministry is loving him in return. But I love seeing what happens when people realize that Jesus loves them and that they need to agree with him that they're lovable. Um, and so mentoring, I think, is my primary calling, Chrystal, and its manifestations have been writing, speaking, small groups, one-on-ones. But I think I'm a people grower and The things didn't stack up for me like, you know, nice little blocks. I just knew what was next. And when Jesus interrupted my life, I knew I was still supposed to do this plan to pre-law program.

Yeah.

When I graduated, I didn't know I would never return to law school, but I knew I was supposed to go overseas. I knew I was supposed to get a master's, um, knew that the doctorate was there, but it was more about this is where follow is taking me, then this is what I know it's gonna help me do.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

If, if it pleases Jesus, then, well, hey, let's do it. I, I don't have to know, I don't have to know the outcome to determine the value. The value is, I think this is where follow is leading, so that means I'm gonna be close to him in this fire. Wind, rain, mountain, valley, uh, that the value is in being near him, and I'm going to let him worry about the outcome.

So I'm assuming that you live a fairly, um, contemplative life based on what you said about who you are and how you like to operate, based on the pacing and the tone of your voice, based on the fact that when I I see you on social media, I'm gonna see some nature in the background. Like, yes, your whole, your whole vibe is like, I'm gonna set things up in my life so that I can, you know, live it the way that I want to, that I desire, that I could get the most out of it, whatever I think God has for me. And so I think someone could look at your life, hear your voice, listen to your story, and excuse themselves from the possibility of what they are attracted to in you. They could excuse themselves from that possibility because so much of your aesthetic— is another word that I loved that has been used to describe you— um, internal, uh, hardwiring, external environment, um, nomenclature, when we talk about the degrees you have and what you've studied, and say, well, then that doesn't apply to me. You know, I live in the middle of the city, or I am a fast talker, you know, or I am the person who brings the party into the room and give me more people to talk to. Or, you know, I, I did sit in the back of the church and nothing ever happened.

Yes.

And so your words are wooing words that, um, God doesn't just want to use me, he wants to love me. And I don't know of anyone that would hear that and not be attracted to that. But if they find themselves attracted to that principle and those words from that principle lead back to the words that came from your mouth, and they say, oh well, of course Jesus met her You know, she's, she's wired for that, to, to sit and soak and all these different things.

So when—

and I know in all of the work that you've done, um, with the spiritual formation and mentoring, that you've met and led and prayed for and talked to people with all kinds of wiring.

Yes.

What does a life where there's room to hear from him so you can follow him, room to know what's going on in your soul, know what following looks like. What does it look like when my life doesn't look like yours?

Yes, excellent question. To me, one of the most beautiful things about intimacy with God is that it's not a function of personality. And it's not a function of circumstance or scenery. When I read books that I want to read twice, uh, most of these people have walked through incredible pain, uh, their lives are filled with challenges and responsibilities. And so one of the beauties of mentoring is getting to mentor people who are drastically unlike me. People that are the absolute antithesis of my Myers-Briggs, or— because intimacy with God doesn't require us to find our utopia visually. It's not waiting for an aromatic space. It's a matter of intentionality in our minds. And so this is what I mean by that. I'm going to sound a bit like a broken record. Whether I was in the midst of— we have 3 children through the miracle of adoption, so, you know, we've got gorgeous trees, but if you were to come inside our house the first 10 years of our parenting, you would think we had 12. We— our eldest is on the autistic spectrum. Our, our kids were exposed in utero to cocaine and meth and just about every drug on the planet, and If we only had 8 to 10 meltdowns a day, it was a banner day. So I need you to picture this formation of intimacy with God. It's growing, it's, it's greatest years. We're in the midst of absolute chaos. And so if intimacy with God isn't waiting for the sun to set and the birds to begin, in the city to become quiet and somehow my schedule to clear. What is it then? Uh, I think it was Frank Laubach talked about the gentle pressure of our minds to be with God. When I mentor people, especially people in large cities and really chaotic lives, I encourage them to think about applying the gentle pressure to be with God in the small spaces of your life, not the, not the large spaces. Let's start with the small spaces in between this call and your next call and my next responsibility. Are you and I going to grab our phones and scroll through Insta? Are we going to try to shoot off that one email, or might we take one minute to simply breathe and say, Jesus, thanks so much for the opportunity to do what I just did. What are you thinking about? What are you feeling about this meeting I have coming up? Is there anything you want to bring to my mind for it? Let's go get some tea in between. It's the pluralness of our minds The, the fact that faith is not a solo. So why do we live it like a solo in our minds? If we change our conversation internally from I to we, it does not matter what the scenery is. It does not matter whether in the middle of 8 to 10 meltdowns or we're in the middle of a doctor telling us that the mass was Cancerous. Whatever the context, wherever we are, we can be with Jesus in this moment, which means we can be intimate with him, we can be near him. And that to me is where deep-rooted, sturdy intimacy with God grows, not through the vacations, It's through the real life choices to not live alone in my mind, but to live with him. So the middle of the meltdowns, I'm like, Jesus, I have no idea what to do, but I know you're with me. Do you have any thoughts? You know, Jesus, please help my child. You're his peace. Uh, Jesus, I'm drawing a blank. Let's do this together. Uh, in the Plural life to me is where it is regardless of personality.

What are the signals to me or to someone who's listening that I'm not living in the Plural? Like you gave examples of what you can do to ensure that you're using those opportunities to live in the Plural. What might be physical, emotional, uh, mental? Indicators that, oh wait, trigger. This, this wouldn't be happening if you were living in the Plural. How can I notice?

Yes. Yeah. Great. Cruel self-talk. You know, when you're living in the Plural, uh, you can't wake up in the morning and look in the mirror and say, Jesus, we are ugly today. You just can't do it. Jesus, we're such idiots. Jesus, we're such losers. Why do we keep failing over and over?

It—

when you live in the plural, it has to change how you talk to yourself about yourself, because now you've got to agree with Jesus. Yeah, we have this fallacy in our culture that we think we can grow in intimacy with God while growing in hatred toward ourselves. I love that. It's just simply unsustainable. If your love for God is hitting a ceiling, it might be good to look and see whether how you're treating yourself is in agreement with God's thoughts towards you. So we agree with God not as a spiritualized form of narcissism, but we agree with him to walk with him. I am human, and human is not a synonym for sin. It means that I'm growing, and Jesus didn't die for my growth curve. I am learning, I'm expanding, I'm stumbling. It's part of being human. And so I can agree with God and say, well, it looks like I'm growing, looks like I have more to learn. So, uh, cruel self-talk to me is one of the immediate indicators personally. Wait a minute, Alicia. You've slipped from faith as a duet to faith as a solo. Go back to the duet. It's more theologically accurate. So good.

New and fresh the way Dr. Alicia delivered that concept. And I know that sometimes we look in the mirror and we talk to ourselves, but have you ever looked in the mirror and talked to yourself and Jesus? Because you realize that Jesus is always with you. Simple concept said in a very revolutionary way, and it's something that I will be taking from this conversation for sure. But the reality is getting a way to think about not just what's in your head, but literally talking to yourself and thinking about how that means you're also connecting with God as you talk to yourself about your life, like making room to process that. Is something I don't know that we always do. How am I talking to myself? And how am I including Jesus in those conversations? Am I consciously including him in those conversations? And if I was, would I say some of the things that I say to myself if I thought he was listening? God sees us, he is for us, and he wants us to live our lives in a way that glorifies him. And how we talk to ourselves with him listening is a part of that. As I was talking to Alicia, I just kept thinking about how God not only wants us to live in the plural inwardly, but he wants us to live in the plural outwardly as well, that we are talking about ourselves and our relationship with Christ in the context of community. Community is super important. And I know that you probably have your own community. It might be your sister, your sister friends, your sister cousins, your small group at church. Maybe it's the ladies you're on the PTA with, or the ladies you show up to run with every Saturday. I don't know. But my hope is that in some way, shape, or form in your life, you have community and that you include this pluralistic way of thinking about yourself and about your God when you're engaging with the people you engage with every day. But I realize that sometimes the people that we're engaging with every day aren't our people, or we want to do something that those people don't want to do. This is why I have and host the Inner Circle community, so that there are a group of women who are working on the same thing— homeschooling their kids, working on their books, communicating and building their podcast or their speaking platforms, working on losing weight, lurking, working on eating right, working on eating good books, eating good books, reading good books, working on developing good habits, setting their goals, going back to school, upping the level in their career, like finding your tribe and not just being encouraged, but being held accountable by people that you meet and grow to know. The Inner Circle is an awesome opportunity to connect with other women who want to think pluralistically. About themselves and about their God, but also who want to move the needle forward in their life. One of the benefits of the Inner Circle is getting the behind the scenes, so not just the conversations that I have via podcast, but the unedited versions of those, or the live recorded versions of those, as well as my Monday Live where I host my own morning radio show every Monday morning. But in addition to that, there are other benefits like being VIPs at events I host. In October of 2023, this year, I'm going to California. I want to invite you to come with me. But if you're in the Inner Circle, you can be my guest as a VIP. And if you're not in the Inner Circle, I would encourage you to not just join because of all the community and accountability benefits that we have, but also join and come to Cali. Join and meet me in person and meet other women in person who want to move their lives forward. If you are interested in either one of those things, I want to make sure you know how to connect. If you're interested in the Inner Circle, even if you can't come to California, go to thesistercircle.com/innercircle. You can join monthly, you can pay by the year, whatever you want to do. I would love to invite you in to meet other women who are moving their lives forward. If you're interested in coming to the retreat as an Inner Circle member, then join the Inner Circle and then register for the retreat, thesistercircle.com/retreat. If you want to come to the retreat, and you don't want to be in the inner circle, that's fine too. So thesistercircle.com/innercircle and/or /retreat. My goal is to help you live with the right mindset. Because if you believe every day when you get up, that you get to choose, there are a lot of things in life you don't get to choose, but there are a lot of things in life that you do. And one of those things you get to choose is living pluralistically first, Thinking about yourself and the God who's always with you. And then second, thinking about the people that you surround yourself with. And we all need cheerleaders. We all need somebody that's gonna notice when we say we have a win. We need women who are gonna pray for us, women who may not even know us, but they will pray because they say they would. And then they'll ask us, how did God answer? And sometimes you just need to get away and meet new friends. And I'm all about meeting you in digital online spaces and when possible in person. So I hope that you're enjoying this podcast so far. And I hope that if you want more, you take advantage of what more I'm offering to you all the time. And I look forward to meeting you here whenever the videos are released in the comments or every Monday live or in person in Cali for 2023. All right, y'all, I hope you're enjoying this. I know I am. Let's dig deeper with Dr. Alicia as we learn what it is to think healthy thoughts about our God and about how he wants us to live. You, um, do a lot of things, um, and, um, I know as a speaker and as a writer, as a wordsmith, as a woman who loves to lead other women, um, the mentoring that you do, that you have the opportunity to look at what God is doing in you and see what the truths are, the applicable truths are, that are, as you said, theologically accurate. And so they should be applicable even if someone has a different personality, a different background, a different, um, story. Have you ever been stumped? Oh, I mean, yes, this is true. I know this is true. This works for everybody else. This isn't working for you. Like, yes. And, and, and I'm curious when that happens, because I think if I'm not stumped about myself, and I'm thinking about myself, but I'm also thinking about everybody who's listening, if I'm stumped about someone else. What I feel in this moment is the person who's listening and they're thinking, oh, I wish this person could hear this. You know, like, they need to know. I mean, I had 2 or 3 people pop into my mind that I was thinking, oh man, there's a lot of negative self-talk there, you know, and this has to do with their view of God. And I would want them to hear this. And it's not that they maybe haven't heard it, you know what I'm saying? Like, to some degree, why isn't this clicking? Why, why isn't this message in its simplicity, and it's beautiful simplicity. I'm getting it. This is moving me. I want this to move them. I want them not to be in that space. I want them not to think low of themselves. I want them not to disassociate God's grace with the growth curve. I want them to, um, run to God as they are and to know that he made them worthy the day he loved them, and that they're not earning the love as they grow in their worth. I want them to get this. And so um, that disappointment when you receive truth. And this happens to all of us, right? We go to church and the sermon— the sermon— the pastor said this in the sermon, and we're like, this was good, and this person needed to hear it.

Yeah.

So when have you been— when are you— when you are stumped, what do you do with that? I mean, obviously, you know, we pray about it, but like, what do you do with the angst that you may feel because you so passionately want the person who is not accepting, understanding, receiving this beautiful simplicity of the truth that you're sharing, when they're not allowing it to sink in and you want their pain to abate, want their struggle to cease in the form that it's in, and you can't make that happen for them, what do you do with the angst you have, with the hope you have for that person that you're engaged with?

Yes. Yes. Wow, you ask great questions. Um, well, I think about this most immediately as a parent because that's, in a sense, that's a lot of the greatest heartache of parenting is this, uh, the stunning meal that God has prepared, but you gotta come to the table. You know, the stunning meal he's prepared, but you gotta pick up a fork. And the smells can come from the kitchen, it can come right from the heart of the home, but you can't make people eat. So I think that the reality of free will, this messy substance of free will, is a humbling reminder of who the Savior really is. I intercede, I pray, I speak the word, I scripture pray a lot, but at the end of the day, this God who died on the cross for us will not void the free will he has gifted to us. And so I walk through the doors that are open. If somebody— my eldest on the autistic spectrum— somebody once gave me an illustration. I apologize, I don't remember who it is, or else I'd quote them— of, uh, him being like a, a series of dominoes all set up in a line, and I keep wanting to rearrange them. Oh, surely we need to learn this before that, and this isn't that important. Let's put that further down the line. I want to rearrange those dominoes, uh, but they are how they are, and he's not going to get to number 10 until he's gotten past number 8 and number 9. And so I wait and I pray, and I remind myself that that person that I love so much who seems stuck, that person that I love so much, that they can smell what's cooking in the kitchen, they can see what's on the table. But they won't sit there yet, or they're sitting politely out of respect for those who are near, but they won't pick up a fork. I have to remind them that God loves them a billion times more than I do. Uh, a friend of mine said something once that applied to children, but is true for anybody we love. Uh, it was Dr. Anthony Skoma, and he said, we keep wanting to protect our children, but we can't protect them from their testimony. Ooh. Uh-huh. Dr. Anthony Skoma. We keep wanting to protect our children, but we can't protect them from their testimony. Well, the same is true for our siblings. The same is true for our families. Same is true for our coworkers. Uh, there is a story they're writing with their will, and I have to trust God uh, his love for them.

Wow. Well, you went right where I wanted to go, which was parenting. Um, because I think so much of— one, we— it— God can do anything, and he can interrupt anybody's life at any time. But so much of what we experience in our life, right, it comes from our experience with our parents. And so whether it's the transfer of faith or I don't want what you were doing, whether that was faith or not. Um, our acceptance of faith and the ease of that based on our upbringing, the hypocrisy that we experienced in our upbringing that makes it not easy. There's all these different things that go into it. But, um, I think I wanted to hear your thoughts and your wisdom because how old are your children now?

Yes, now they are 26, 20, and 16.

Okay, well, I've been following you long enough to watch a little bit of your launch of your, uh, daughter, your 20-year-old. Oh, just into that season, the time that you were spending with her and all that. Yeah, I would love to know, and this is just the sky's the limit, whatever comes to mind. It doesn't have to in any way be connected to anything we've talked about. Um, that's the season I'm in. I have a 14-year-old all the way up to 31, and so there's 5, 5 kids, and I have Wow. I talk a lot about this season of adult parenting. It is a very challenging season as you learn how to engage with them as independent people. And while you do this, you know, over time, they're constantly working their way out of your, you know, direct line of instruction. And we, you know, you know all the things. You move into the coaching role. And it's not— all these different things. But watching them live and crossing your fingers that while you can't protect them for your testimony, from their testimony, you don't want them to walk into any potholes that they could avoid if they would just listen to you.

Yes, yes.

You know, and the angst of that, like the angst of that. So, and, and also just, just learning how to engage because What you would say, the way you would say it to them when they're 12, definitely 2, and 16 is different than how you engage and how you talk, um, when they're 20, when they're 26, you know, the permission to add in certain things. And so anyway, I'm giving my own little whatever here. It doesn't have to be related to any of that. I would love to know any wisdom that you feel like you have grabbed stronghold of, strong clarity about whether it was easily understood or hard fought for, if you were speaking with all this grace that you've been talking about, the love and the worth and how some of that does connect to parenting. If you have parents of older children, teenagers, young adults, mm-hmm, 20-somethings, early 30s, and you were like, if you don't hear me say anything else, let me share this wisdom with you or give you this to consider.

Wow. I actually have two things come to mind, if that would be okay. Absolutely. And we'll see if I remember the second after the first with my jet lag. Okay, so the, the first thing that comes to my mind is something actually my daughter Keona taught me. So baby girl has always loved the kitchen. She just loved cooking. She thankfully got that from my mama. It skipped a generation. I love to eat, my mom loved to cook, and so it was a great combination. But my daughter inherited that from, from my mama. And so ever since she was little, she would want to make something. And so she would— her first big endeavors were soup. So I would get a pot, you know, boiling on the stove, and, you know, at a safe distance we would have like this little stool for Keona, and she would put in everything she thought I would think was pretty. So we are talking about quite an assortment. I mean, uh, like yellow cheese with green pickles and purple plums and yellow eggs. And she is dropping— I mean, all, all of this. Mama, I'd like some of this and some of this. And she would stir it up and season it, and then with gleaming eyes, you know, she would say, okay, it's done. Now, Chrystal Hurst, I made a commitment never to lie to my children.

Right?

I'm never gonna lie to my kids. So they never— like, anyway, so I put it in a little bowl, and every single time she would hand it to me, and, you know, her eyes are gleaming, and I take a sip, and I would always say, um, babe, that is, that is something special. I mean, it was, it was something special because what Keona was doing is she was making a loving guess about what would please me. And she succeeded. I was pleased. And I feel like that's really what God asks of us in life in general. Let's talk about parenting in particular. We're all just making loving guesses, aren't we?

We sure are.

We are. And, and it's enough. Uh, it's enough. I am immersing myself in the word of God. I'm staring at Jesus throughout the gospel, seeing how he interacted with people. How did he grow people? How did he let people make choices that weren't the ones that he had hoped for? I'm staring at the person of Jesus. I'm staring at Father God throughout the scriptures. So I don't want to de-emphasize the critical importance that the word has made in my parenting. I've been gazing at Father, Son, and Holy Spirit very specifically, cover to cover, for a long time. And I try to ask myself, what would Jesus do? What would the Father do? What would the Spirit do? And then I'm just making tons of loving guesses. And at the end of the day, I think God's pleased. And when I know my guess was wrong, I'm quick to ask forgiveness because I think that's an example my kids need too. Um, a loving guess is enough. So that comforts me. That comforts me. Uh, I don't think this was the second thing I was going to say, but it's coming to my mind now. I'm also— honestly, I pursue therapy because I have been experiencing more anxiety about parenting now than I did even in the midst of the meltdowns. There's something different about parenting adult children, as you mentioned. Than there is. And so I want somebody on deck who's helping me manage that. And there's a godly Christian therapist that I try to meet with once every month or two. I'm just like, okay, I'm waking up in the middle of the night at 3:30 worried about this choice that they're making. I, I can't seem to wind back down. Going through my mind, you know, be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer petition with thanksgiving present your request to God. The peace of God that transcends all understanding will guard your heart and your mind in Christ Jesus. But I still can't go to sleep, right? So I have support. I have godly moms on deck too that I call. I phone a friend. So the word of God, staring at my Father God, right? Jesus, Holy Spirit, friends on deck, good godly therapy. Uh, and every time I meet with this woman, I, I feel refreshed. I feel like I've got a tool that I can apply and permission to make loving guesses. One of the things my therapist said was, Alicia, nobody gets to be parented by perfect parents. I was like, shoot. I, I, I had hoped, but I'm nowhere near.

Oh, this is so good, so good. Um, I know that if there's no other time where you are painfully aware of what the world will become in the generation after you, it is when you're parenting. Um, and I know that while you have a concern for people to know the intimacy of God, that their is a special concern just for, um, the generation that we're in and the one behind us. I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that. Like, yeah, what is your concern and what do you think there is to be done about that concern? What can we take away from that conversation to be more present in the spaces and places that we are for our generation and the one behind us?

Yes. Well, this will be just from my perspective, which is why I love so many voices, because we all see different things that need to be seen. I am deeply concerned about two different things. I'm concerned that we have cultivated— and I can only speak for, I can only speak for this country. I, yeah, my daughter and I just traveled around Europe, and I wouldn't dare speak for another country's church. But perhaps I've had the opportunity to see enough here where I feel pretty confident in saying that we have encouraged people to confuse emotion for devotion and to mistake experience for a relationship. And I believe that this sets up the next generation to not know how to navigate the nights of faith, to not know how to walk through the wilderness. To not know that the silence of God purifies faith, because the second they stop feeling, it's easy for them to stop believing. So confusing emotion for devotion. I'll tell a story about my eldest. Now, obviously on the autistic spectrum, he's very high functioning now, but when he was first diagnosed, they didn't think he'd ever speak or interact or be able to have a conversation. When he graduated from college, uh, there's still many challenges that he's facing, but it's been beautiful to watch the miracle of his life unfold. When he was a teen, he went to one of those truly excellent events. Everything, everything top, just outstanding worship, light shows, excellent preaching. Everything was done just tremendously. A bunch of kids got saved. A bunch of people gave their life to Jesus, took that step. And Jonathan came home and he said, Mom— and I have his permission to tell this story— but he said, Mama, I'm not sure I know God. And I said, well, I'd love to hear more about that. Now, this is a parenting thing that I do feel strongly about. Our kids need to be— they need to have a safe space to be able to share what might be considered negative emotions in the church as much as positive emotions. We will sit around the dinner table and say, what was the worst part of today? What was the best part of today? What went well? What do you wish you could redo? With no reaction, that it's just a safe place. Because if I'm hoping that if they think I'm a safe place, my husband and I are safe places to share the negative, that they're gonna transfer that to God as well. That they know that honesty with God is a friend of intimacy with God. That's a sidebar. But Jonathan said, I'm not sure I know God. And he said, Mama, I see all these people. And they all feel God. They, they, they're crying, their arms are raised, they're jumping up and down, they see him, they feel him, they talk about how they're experiencing him and how they know him. And he said, I don't feel him, so doesn't that mean I don't know him? And there wasn't one leader in that place, Chrystal, that I think was trying to communicate that experience. Is a substitute for relationship. That one person in that place that was trying to communicate that emotion was a substitute for devotion. But that's what my son heard, and I think it's what a lot of people have accidentally or incidentally heard. But faith is not a feeling, it's more like a muscle, and muscles don't always feel good. And so I think that this setup is something that should be very alarming for us. What I told Jonathan is, I said, you know what, because you don't feel, you are actually poised for world-shaping faith. Because you don't feel anything, you are set up for being an incredible world changer for God. You are set up for Job-like faith. Faith that says, I believe. Faith that won't lie about God. Faith that's going to tell the truth to God. You are set up for Job-like faith that can be remembered for generations and generations. Because he is not in danger of mistaking emotion for devotion. He's going to have to choose to follow Jesus with or without the permission and affirmation of his feelings. Now, I love feelings. Oh my word, I love those worship events. I love feeling the presence of God. Every once in a while, my senses are smart enough to pick up on the always reality that God is near. But my feelings don't create his presence. So whether I feel nothing or I feel everything, it changes him not. Which means to the next generation that their greatest shout doesn't thicken God and their greatest doubt doesn't thin him. Okay, he is profoundly present. So part of the answer to this, the word mercy, the word of God. Uh, I was in a, a van coming down from an amazing retreat with the Next Gen, who I love. Oh my goodness, I could hang out with them all day long, even as an introvert. I could be there all day long. I love Next Gen. And they were asking me this very question, what are your greatest concerns for us? And I said, I'm really, really concerned about the, the absence of this deep root system in the word of God. And one of them said, Alicia, I've been told to read, but it's so boring. That's why I go listen to a podcast or I turn on worship music. And I said, hon, has anybody ever taught you how to study the word? She said, no one. Every single woman in that van, 20s, early 30s, late teens, No one had ever come alongside that they remembered and said anything other than, 'Be sure to read your Bible.' I said, 'Well, we can change that. We've got 40 minutes to the airport.' And so for the next 40 minutes, without an app, without a book, without a concordance, we just talked about developing a relationship with the Bible. So we use things that are dead and we relate to things that are living. So you and I are using the chairs we're sitting on, but we would never use each other. So do we use the Bible or do we relate to it? Our answer probably reflects whether we really believe it's alive or dead.

Wow.

So the Word of God is living. It's alive. Feel it or not, it changes it not. And we have got to help the next generation discover a sustainable way of developing a relationship with the scriptures.

So good. Yeah, everything, um, it's so easily pre-digested now. You don't have to study to feel like you're being fed, but that's like fast food. You can get full and it does absolutely nothing for you.

That's right. That's right. Yes.

You talked a little bit about the night. Um, I know that your next book that's going to be released soon after our conversation.

Yes.

Um, is called The Night Is Normal.

Yes.

And this is a big deal because you say it's your life message, the flow of 30 years of study. And, um, I know that you've had seasons of night. We haven't gone into more than a couple of them, but, um, your own health journey and walking with your son. But I just want to know, why is this your life message? And I feel like it kind of ties back to some of the things that you're saying, even what you were saying with the generations and, um, how emotion doesn't sustain you but devotion will. What is What is the night that you're talking about? Why do we need to know that it's normal?

Yes, another story. Sitting down with a pastor, and she and her husband lead an incredible ministry, and she said, Alicia, I know I'm just about to preach, but I'm not even sure I still believe in the Jesus I'm preaching. And I said, okay. She said, doesn't that make you nervous? And I said, sweetheart, it doesn't make God nervous, so why on earth should it make me nervous? Your honesty is what he needs. Um, and it, uh, that one, by God's grace, her, her realization that her questions didn't make him nervous really ushered her to a brand new place of nearness with him. You know, the Knight can be interpreted in a lot of different ways. I go back to the beginning. And so in the beginning, pre-fall, pre-sin, pre-drama, pre-curse, the Knight was one of the original residents of Eden, which means that walking with God in the beginning required both day faith and night faith. But now we just want day faith. We want to see clearly. We want to know fully. We shun the night. We do it physically, we do it spiritually. We try to keep shortening the night by turning on lights and lighting candles and staring at our screens. But the night is necessary physically. Thank goodness we've stumbled upon a whole bunch of research now as brilliant minds are discovering what sleep and the nighttime does for us physically, emotionally, intellectually, relationally. But we need to rediscover the power and the purpose of the night spiritually as well. So faith shines best in the sun, but it grows depth in the dark. In these seasons of night where we just can't see well, where we don't have the answer, where we don't have the feels these seasons of night where we can't act on the illusion of self-leadership— we know we can't self-lead because we can't see— it deepens our dependence, it grows our trust muscles. And when we avoid those spaces by trying to stack on experience upon experience upon experience, good spiritual feeling upon good spiritual feeling, podcast to the next podcast to the next retreat to the next worship song, all of which are wonderful things. They're wonderful things. But we also have to live the night so that our faith can have depth. And so we've got something to say to this world because they're drowning in the darkness. And if we keep avoiding the night, we have precious little other than platitudes to offer them.

So beyond platitudes, um, someone who's listening says, okay, I, I agree with everything you're saying, and I want, I want to grow, and I want to embrace the night, and I want to engage with God's word for myself. But call me next generation, call me I didn't have parents who taught me, call me I went to church, but other than going to church, I didn't get anything out of it. I know God, but I'm not in relationship with God. Um, not as a salvation conversation, but as the plural living that we were talking about earlier. Again, you know, there's so many things to learn and glean from you, but if you had to whittle something down to the person who you have stoked the hunger, they are— they've been circling the table. They have had the aromas wafting out of the kitchen as our conversation, and they're interested in sitting at the table to eat. What practical guidance for spiritual growth, next steps from here, from this conversation? If I'm hungry and I want to eat, okay, Dr. Alicia, tell me, what do I do?

Yes. You know, I've written very few books, uh, Chrystal Hurst, really only a handful. I think 6 or 7, and most of those are out of print, um, especially the early ones. The last, uh, 4 books that I've written have been the answers to those questions as far as what I feel God has deposited in me. Other people have offered much more eloquent, meatier things, no doubt, but from what I have, um, I have been able to offer If somebody were to say, I want intimacy with God to be my everyday reality and not just a feeling that kind of I occasionally have, sort of like walking through a garden and smelling a lovely rose, I would direct them to a book I wrote called The Sacred Slow. It is the actual content that I take the leaders I mentor through, 52 weeks of content. Chapter by chapter, movement by movement, where we build, where we talk about a relationship with the Word, where we talk about God concept and self-concept, where we talk about how God designed you to soak up his love, where we talk about what it means to live in the Plural practically. Every chapter has a reading and then an exercise. So if you're really ready to roll up your sleeves The Sacred Slow is where I would direct you. There's 12 teaching videos that go along with it, but I mean, it's heart work. It's not hard work, but it's heart work. If someone were to say, I need a framework for navigating the night, I, I feel like it's smothering me, then this, this new book, The Night Is Normal. There are Let me try to add up real quick. I'm not going to get this right. There are almost 50 practical tools, to-dos, that I offer. The very first part of The Night Is Normal, it gives us a biblical theological framework for the night. By the time you get done with part 1, you're like, okay, so the next time I feel a night, I realize that I'm not just losing an illusion, I'm gaining a reality. And I am growing nearness with God. I got this. Um, it'll give you a theology for the night. Then part 2 gives you practical tools for navigating when you're disillusioned with God, when he's just not who you thought he was. He allowed something that you didn't think a good God could. The next part is disillusionment with yourself. I know what I'm supposed to do. Why aren't I just doing it? And then disillusionment with God's people, which has wiped a whole lot of people out of the church. Practical tools for navigating that, uh, and so the practices are all baked into the content. If somebody maybe didn't want to pick up a book, honestly, the one thing I would ask you to do is to pick up one of the Gospels. I— it doesn't matter. Let's see what Luke pops up first as I'm paging through my Bible with you, Chrystal. And here's what I'm going to ask you to do. I'm going to ask you to make a commitment. Anybody who might be listening who really wants to take a step, just make a commitment to take a small fragment of the scripture each day. So let's look at Where are we? I'll tell you where I'm at. I'm in Luke chapter 9. When Jesus had called the 12 together. That's it. I, I, I'm not asking you to read 3 chapters. Take this one phrase every day. When Jesus had called the 12 together and roll it over in your mind over and over. When Jesus had called The Twelve together. Let it dissolve into you like a great piece of chocolate dissolving in your mouth. And then ask yourself as it's dissolving into you, let me see myself in this. Let me hear it. And God, is there anything you want me to learn from it? Building a relationship with the living voice of Jesus. And thinking with him, even going back to this for the rest of the day, developing that muscle of living faith as a duet instead of a solo, absorbing the word, living in the plural. That would be my first step. If you hear nothing else that I say, this one step: let the word of God dissolve in you in small pieces and begin thinking with God, not just about him.

So good. This has been so great. Thank you for your wisdom and your, um, your stories and the sharing of your life and what you've learned in living life with Jesus.

Thank you for sharing that with us. Oh, I have loved it. You ask outstanding standing questions, Chrystal Hurst. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Thank you.