Christine Caine on The Beauty of Interruption

Y'all, one of my favorite people in the world, um, Christine Caine. She's been on the podcast more than a few times. She has a million books out. I've got one beautiful one in my hand here, How Did I Get Here? Um, she is the freedom girl. That's how I like to think of her anyway. Christine talks about a lot of things, but it's always very clear that she wants people through the power of Jesus Christ to live free, and she preaches and teaches accordingly. And I'm so grateful that you're joining me today. Okay, so one of the questions that I have for you is your insatiable desire to learn and grow. As you, so we all know, many of us already know, if not all of us, the books, the speaking, the traveling, the touring, the around the world. I remember, I don't know if I saw a picture from you or if Priscilla told me, but I have a visual memory of you taking your babies with you in like the Moses basket, little carrying thing through the airport because your kids just came with you. Like this is, long-term. I didn't just decide to be a preacher of the gospel. I've been doing this, um, small and large. But you, in a lot of people's eyes, um, you know, have arrived at whatever that means. But then you went back to school, you know. And so a lot of times people are going to school because they're trying to get somewhere. If I can show that I have this education or show that I have this knowledge or that I've done a certain amount of work, then that gives me access or interest Um, but you in your late 40s, right? Is that when you started that journey? Late 40s. You decided, I'm gonna go back to school and grow. Um, not only do I think that that's a message to so many women who may be in a season of their life thinking, I'm— it's too late for that, or thinking, um, you know, why does this even matter? I would love for you to share, like, what made— what built up in your heart, what grew in your heart and mind that said, I'm doing this and I'm doing this now?

Yeah, it's good. I started actually at 51 and finished at 55, so that's— that was my master's. And I'll be starting my DMin at 56 and finishing at 60. So there you go, that'll be like, like 10 years of, uh, study in my— between 50 and 60.

I love it.

So for me, it's really— obviously, I think around 2016, you know, so much of the world changed. And for what I do, and a lot of what I do is so tied into evangelism mission, you know, like really trying to take the gospel into different cultures and people. And I realized my daughter's world is really different to my world. So, you know, if I was going to continue to be able to minister, and especially, especially in areas of where you're talking evangelism and understanding cultures and understanding leadership— and A21 is, you know, 19 offices in 16 countries, hundreds of staff I needed leadership development. I mean, you know, because this thing, if we were gonna continue to go forward and I was going to continue to be an effective leader, either I had to hand everything over because it was growing bigger than I was. And then you get one of two things happen. Either you put a ceiling on it or you hang onto things way too long and it ends up destroying it. You know, and you see that time and time again. And I want fruitful ministry to the end. And part of fruitfulness is choosing what do I need to let go of at this point and on, as much as good, uh, what do I do. And so, you know, people might have me in a box— this is what Chris Caine does— um, but I've never put myself in those boxes. Other people do. So to me, it's always been an ongoing following of Jesus. And so I, I got to this point where I thought, okay, the world has shifted. Um, there are some things that I really need to understand theologically about culture, the shifts that are happening in culture, morality, you know, things that if I'm going to speak into it, in it, with any clout, um, I, I have to know theologically. And large shifts were happening. And, you know, when the internet is the primary discipler of people and Christian influencers are the primary disciples, I'm like, maybe we really— I need to model the need for some great theological understanding as well and having a strong theological basis if you're going to be doing things like teaching people the Bible and teaching, you know, like in that sense, because the world's just shifting so massively. And that's what caused me to go back. So I thought, I'm going to go to grad school and do evangelism and leadership. And of course, I don't like to do anything alone. I'm like, how can I model this best for the next generation of young women, um, who— I didn't have those kind of platforms in my 20s, no matter what. There was no internet when I was growing up in ministry. There was no social media. So a lot of the character formation, a lot of the deep spiritual formation, that was happening offline, um, before God thrust me into any public ministry. People see the public ministry because this is the world we now live in. So they're like, oh, we've had, you know, the internet for the last 20 years, and we all, you know, the last 15 years in any meaningful way, and, um, social media, and then the internet for about 20, 30 years. Well, all my first 20 years of ministry where a lot of stuff got dealt with on the inside of me and where some of the mistakes that I made, thank God there was no internet, there was no social media, so they went to be with Jesus. Thank you, they're under the blood. You just go, awesome. I had that opportunity to be formed and to grow and to have my character developed. Well, nowadays everything's happening in real time. And so there's nowhere where you go So if you're going to make a mistake, everybody is going to know about it, and quite likely you're going to be cancelled very quickly. So, um, I thought one way I can help maybe young women is say it is good to go to school if you can and if you want to and if you feel the Lord's calling you. Of course, that's not everyone's journey. I work in plenty of countries in the world that's not even an option for a woman. That's not even a possibility. But for where it is, and, um, You know, and particularly part of the stream of the church I sort of was raised in probably looked down a little bit at educational, looked down at seminary. It was like, don't go to, you know, the seminary, you're going to die, you're going to lose your passion for God. And I wanted to go, you know what, you can have spirit and truth. You can be full of the spirit and life and zeal and deeply rooted and grounded in orthodox theology and understand why you believe what you believe and understand where the scripture fits into all of that. So That's why I went back. And then so we started these cohorts. I had no idea that it would go like it is. Like currently there's 145 women in cohorts at Wheaton. So I've gone through my program. I got, you know, my Master of Arts. And so 145 women. So there's 7 cohorts happening now and that will continue to go. And then we're gonna start a D-Min cohort now. So who knows? By the time I finish, how many women are gonna have gone through that? And that'll be ongoing. But what it does is it gives, it validates theological education for women. It validates a learning experience that is us all doing it together. And then, you know, so that to me is awesome. And then I've learned, because what better way to learn how to communicate to another generation than to be in a cohort? With women that are half my age at times. So I'm hearing, oh wow, these are the questions they've got. This is how they're processing this stuff. I would, if I was just with women that are my age in my 50s, I already know how we think. I already know how we were formed. There's nothing quite, it's an equalizer because it's like going, I'm coming into this. Yes, I've had more experience in life, but that doesn't mean, and I might know more things about some things, but I don't know more about how your generation is thinking or processing than you do. So therefore, I'm a student to you here. And so I think it has a great way of reminding me my job is to serve the church. Because you know, when you have a certain platform, when you have a certain amount of people listening to you, you can forget that your primary job is still to listen if you're going to serve, because you're so used to talking. And you're so used to everyone's coming to you for advice that you go, wow. Um, there's a lot I don't know a lot about, and so it keeps me on the edge with Jesus as well.

That's so good. There's so many things. Um, the first thing is the cohort being filled with many younger women. Did that just happen, you feel like, because generationally they had the bandwidth to do it? Was there a specific aim in the communication and the marketing for a younger generation, or it just happened that way?

It just happened. I love it that we had a couple of 60 and 70-year-olds in it. I think we had a 70-year-old and we had 60s. Um, so I wanted that. I want all the generations. I want women my age to know it's not too late. Like, I started in my 50s, you know, to go, it is not too late. God's not finished with— if you feel called, if that's part of what you feel called to do. Um, I think with some of the younger ones, it is just the season of life they are in, perhaps access to resources, you know, that when you're up now, definitely we've got plenty of married women with children as well, but it is a little bit more difficult. But the way we set the cohorts up, and you don't have to work with Wheaton to go, you're used to having cohorts with men, not women, or married women with children that work full-time, that are— so it is one thing to say we want to create all these opportunities with women, but then having to frame the pipeline for how those opportunities are going to happen mean you have to rethink when we meet, how we meet, how we gather, how it goes. Because it's not like a woman just can't drop 4 kids and go, here it is, you know, on a whim. It's not— it's— there's a lot of planning, there's a lot of involvement. And, um, so I think by me stepping forth, modeling it, and going, no, no, this is how we need to design this, this is when we can get away, this is— we can do all our hours but it has to be done like this. I know historically it was done like, well, you're going to get no women if that's the case because that's just not going to work. So, you know, it's one thing to say it, to write about it, another thing to say I am going to rearrange my life. And I think, I think one of the best ways I can serve the body is to model this and go first. And which is the same thing with the Propel Ecclesia cohorts that we've just launched.

Yes.

Um, and again, that's going to be open to much more women that would would not, don't wanna go to grad school, perhaps don't have the academic prerequisites to go to grad school in that way. And yet the caliber of what's being taught is truly world-class. And yet it's done in a way that women can come together and encourage one another in these cohorts over a 6-month period. It's gonna be psychological, emotional, spiritual, but tailor-made for women in ministry that are working together. So I think if I go, I'll go first, let's work this out together. And because I kind of get it, but in most places where I've been in the last 30 years, I am the only woman at the table. So part of what I'm spending this next season, and while I'm still at a point where at this point people still want to listen, people still, you know, it's not, not like when I've gone over and everyone's like, you know, it's like right now in the midst of where both the younger and the older generations are kind of still leaning into the ministry. I think I can help influence it most effectively now to say, okay, this is the stuff that matters. Internal spiritual formation matters. Supporting one another matters. Creating pipelines and pathways in churches to help pastors navigate the role for, you know, it doesn't matter where you are. You could be a hyper conservative or not, like on the spectrum. There's a place for, I'm not out to try to shift anyone's theology in that. It's just how can we help you create pipelines within your, framework of releasing and creating opportunities for women to be at a table. So in 10 years from now or 20 years from now, it's not like I always laugh. I take pictures. Even last week I did this. I took a picture at a conference. I go, Chris and the boys. This is the story of my life. It's Chris and the boys. There'll be many more women. Now, not only women. That's not what I'm looking for. But at this moment, what I can best do is do that. So And it's a learning thing and it's a growing thing. I'm not that interested in my own voice, contrary to what people think. I don't— I'm not interested in listening to myself talk. I am a student and always have been, way before I would consider myself a teacher.

So with the cohort at Wheaton, did they come to you and say, hey, Chris, we want to do a thing and tell us how you want us to build it? Is that how that started?

Okay, so I went to Ed Stetzer because so much was happening and in the world. I mean, it was like kind of 2016, lots was happening in the world, and I felt like the pace of everything was going so quick and sort of I was asked to comment on a whole lot of stuff and I thought, uh, this is above my pay grade. And I think it's a big thing to say that sometimes people think either if you've got a following or you should have something to say about everything, and I'm like Y'all, I've got a lane. I'm good in my lane. But there's a lot of other things that there's really a lot of smarter people than me to do that. But I thought, okay, there are some things that if I'm gonna keep doing what I'm doing and speaking into people's lives and spiritually, I need to know more information. And so because when I found out then that Ed had moved from Lifeway to the Billy Graham Center, and because we were friends, We were at the same conference. And as we're sitting down, I said, you know, I would love to do some sort of program somewhere. I wasn't even thinking there because I need, I just need to go deeper. I need, if I'm gonna navigate this world that my daughters are growing up in, I just don't know enough. I just, I don't have enough strong theology to speak into culture with the rapid changes in culture.

I'm like, it's fast.

And so, You know, other people would think like, you're 50 and look what you do and look what you've done, as if somehow that's going to mean the next 20 years I'm going to know what to say about anything. So, uh, he said, you know, of course, well, Christine, I've got the program for you. And, um, it was like I said, I want to do something with women, and he's like, cohorts are great. And we just started to talk about the cohort learning experience because you learn as much from each other, you truly do, as from the lecturers. Because, you know, you're assigned books, we can all do the reading, the lecturer is going to go through the books, which is great. But it's the discussions in class and the discussions online that for me were profoundly helpful because it really is like you're in a room going, wow, that's what you think about that and that's how you've interpreted that. And I picked up so much. So that's, that's really how it started. And I thought, I love learning I probably would have stayed an eternal student. Like, the Lord plucked me out in my 20s. God really did this with my life. Like, you know, no matter what, I know and God knows that he did this. What has happened in my life is not natural, it is supernatural. The favor and the opportunities that the Lord's given me. Um, but I have, even in all of that over these last few decades, have been a prolific reader. Like, a prolific reader. It's just this time it was like, okay, let's go down I need to go deeper.

Yeah. So talk to me about, because, you know, again, Christine Kane is around. We love you. We're looking, the Instagram, all that. So cohort, you've got Wheaton, and then you mentioned just as you were talking cohorts, uh, Ecclesia. So these are just launched. So describe, like, if somebody says, okay, the Propel cohort at Wheaton, that's for this, and then the Ecclesia cohorts are for that.

Right, so here it goes, which is a great question. So, the Wheaton is, I mean, obviously you've gotta have an undergraduate degree and you've gotta apply to Wheaton to get into the grad school program. It's just Propel has an understanding that we have cohorts that are women only and you can go through that together with other women. But from the academic side of that, of course that's all Wheaton, not Propel. So, you have to have a certain, you have to pass the requirements that Wheaton has to get into grad school to do that. To do that. Now, that's going to be okay for a certain amount of women, that if that's what they want to do, you know, with that you've got to pay your fees to Wheaton. I mean, there's that, that cost, a grad school education cost that goes with that. There is the academic requirements that and the prerequisites to go with that. So that is for those women that want to study evangelism and leadership with other women at Wheaton, but you have to fulfill the Wheaton criteria academically and financially. Be able to do that. What you will get from Propel is the support of the cohort, the women, and the stuff that goes with that. Propel Ekklesia, a cohort— this has just been launched, um, for women in ministry. So you have to be, um, either in a local church ministry set— that could be anything from a, a children's worker to an executive administrative role, um, to a pastoral role, depending on what roles the church has for women, or a, uh, a not-for-profit for-profit, but you're, um, involved in a form of ministry. Now for that too, though, it's not— that one isn't just open. There is a, um, you have to— there's some requirements like pastoral references, there is an essay to be written about why you would want to, uh, do this, and then there is a cost involved with that. What you get is unbelievable. Like, truly, the people that put the program together, all are, um, you know, have got PhDs or a minimum of— they're in terms of coaching, um, there's a theological component, spiritual formation component, a mental health component, a, uh, coaching in terms of ministry.

I think I need to be in it.

Yeah, I think you would love it. Um, but when I say— I mean, I'm not throwing these words around when I go, it's world-class. It truly is. It really is. The people that have put it together and from across the stream of the church. Or, yeah, of course, um, you know, what we would all consider the kind of historical traditional Orthodox Church, but I mean everything from Pentecostal to Baptist, Methodist. So even in our collaborative team, which is extremely diverse, um, you have the full representation of the church as well, because women tend to love to work together and we want to be in cohorts. What you find is, because there's not an abundance of a whole lot of women in ministry everywhere. Uh, there's normally a woman in a church or 3 women in a church. So this way you can come into a cohort, a 6-month learning experience, very immersive. Uh, you're still in your job, you do whatever. So it's online and there's a— you come together in a retreat as well. But you are part— you are going through this together, same book, same coaching, um, and you develop this like-minded people, but really diverse, because everyone's going to come from different churches. But they'll be at the same level of ministry. So if you're in a senior executive role here, or you're in a role here, you'll be in with a group of women that otherwise you would never have had access to do. And most of the conferences, even women working in churches that'll go to sort of church leadership or pastoral conferences, it's mostly men. I mean, of course, which is, you know, that's awesome, except you feel— I know what it's like, 30 years of being that person. I'm going, okay, I think I can create this immersive experience, get minds that are much more brilliant than me to come together and put it together. So you would know, okay, some of my friends that are from more of the conservative part of the church than I am go, okay, this is going to be an issue for women here, here, and here, so, so let's cater to that. And I might have come from a bit more of a, a Pentecostal sort of, uh, I'm like, okay, this is where I think we need to do. And so suddenly you've got program. I'm like, I want to do this because this is what I wish there was for me. Because, and then there's something for pastors as well, um, that go, you know what, we would love to see more women come through, we just don't know how to do it or what to do it. And within our theological framework, you know, we can move this far. And I'm like, okay, we've got a whole bunch of guys and, and we've got some, some women like us that have the more seasoned and older have been around for decades. We can help you create pipelines and pathways in your churches. And I think that might be one of the best gifts I can give to the next generation of young women. Because, you know, for me, uh, Chrystal Hurst, the saddest scripture in the Bible is Judges chapter 2, verse 10. It says, when Joshua and his generation died, another generation arose that did not know the Lord nor the works that he had done for Israel. So when you think I mean, Joshua came out of Egypt, he saw the Red Sea part, he saw manna from heaven, he saw, you know, a cloud of— by day he followed the cloud, by day he had a pillar of fire, by night he saw the River Jordan push back, he saw the walls of Jericho come down. I mean, you know, he possessed the Promised Land. I mean, it was everything. We went from slavery in Egypt to— we, we did it all. And it's like, look what he did, look what his generation did, look what they achieved. To me though, That's awesome for them, but yeah, ultimately it's failure because it didn't get passed. It's another generation. So people may go, oh, Chris Caine, they're going to write books about what you've done with A21 and where you've preached and what you've done with Propel. And I'm like, ultimately though, if another generation arises after me that does not know the Lord nor the works that he's done for Israel, you know what, I haven't done my job at all. So I'm thinking in this season where by the grace of God I've still got fruitful ministry thus far, you know, by God's grace, um, From 50, really where it started with this kind of intentionality, I have always spoken and had the young generation coming through. I was a youth minister for 15 years. But, you know, so I've always had that, but with great intentionality going, how can I use any influence I have, any resources I have, any knowledge I have to right now in perhaps what would be my most fruitful ministry years. And they do say between 50 and 60 and 60 and 70 are your most fruitful, maybe not necessarily your most well-known, but definitely your most fruitful years. I think all the studies show if you can make it to then and, you know, stay the course, this should be my most fruitful time. And so why not use that to build pipelines and pathways to ensure that the baton is passed on to the next generation within what I'm called to do. So this is, you know, these are my strengths, these are the gifts that the Lord's given me, this is the influence that the Lord's given me in the church. So I— there's no point me doing something someone else can do. This is what I can do, and I, God willing, um, I should have a good maybe 10 to 15 years where I can help to, um, do that for another generation. And I think the fact that I've gone back to school and gone, okay, this is what's going on in the world today, and this is how everyone's navigating it, um, I still will have the opportunity to serve the church for the next 10 to 15 years.

And there's so many things that are good about what you're saying. One is, of course, starting in your 50s, and then you've got the master's degree and then the DMin that you'll be embarking upon. And what you just said about this being a season of fruitfulness, like, you know, you say, they say— I don't know who they is, but we'll go with they, because a lot of women need to know that this is not just a thought that Christine has. It's like something that has been discussed in other realms, that you've done the work, you've stayed the course, you've been faithful, you've learned lessons the hard way or the right way. But in this season of life, you've seen enough of life to have fruit if you're willing to still make yourself available. Um, but I guess my question would be— and I have so many, I'm having to pick and choose. You know, I like to ask questions. I'm really having to pick and choose here. For the woman who, um, is not necessarily, uh, that she doesn't have the baton or the mantle that you have to create pipelines and pathways for women to be able to grow in their ministries, grow in their leadership. But she's listening to you and thinking, okay, I can go back to school. She's thinking individually where she lives, at her church, in her neighborhood. I don't have Christine's mantle or necessarily her exposure or platform, but what does it look like for me to create pipelines and pathways for me to hand the baton well to other generations. You are so prolifically, um, availing yourself and attracted, uh, you're attracted to and they are attracted to you, people of the next generation. So they're just right there. One of the things I hear, there are two things I hear very frequently. I can't find someone to mentor me and I don't know if I'm qualified to mentor. I don't know how. I don't even know if I'm the person. So just at a very local individual, level? What would you say to the woman who's not going to necessarily create a program, not going to create a cohort at Wheaton, not going to necessarily build an organization, but she does want to pass the baton well? What would you say to her? Hey there, I hope you're enjoying this content. And I hope that you are learning and growing as you sit and watch or walk and watch or whatever it is that you're doing when this content comes out. I want to make sure that you know about 3 things. Count them. 1, 2, 3. 3 things. Number 1, mark your calendar for January the 5th and 6th. I'm hosting The Sister Circle Live. It's going to be a combo of worship and also live podcast recordings and also networking. It's going to be amazing. You can go right now to thesistercircle.com/live for more information or to register. Number 2, if you are trying to get your whole life together, did you know I created a planner? It is the Full Circle Planner, and it is a quarterly planner because I believe in 90-day sprints. You can buy one quarter, or you can buy all, all four quarters with— they're all different. We even have a set of yellow bound book special edition, limited edition, that's available for a bundle of four, but they're going fast, and I want to make sure you get yours. So if you are interested in actually moving the needle forward and having some built-in accountability Get my planner. Not only is it a planner, but it's a coaching journal as well. You have a lot of quotes and questions for me to get you to thinking. Here's the third thing I need you to know about. The Inner Circle is amazing and it is open, but it's not going to stay open. On January the 8th, the doors are going to close for our community coffee and connection level guests. So if you are interested in the Inner Circle or you want to know more about it, go to thesistercircle.com. Www.christalhurst.com/innercircle. I would love to have you in there because this year we're going to have a growth plan and a development plan where every month, you know what we're teaching. It's emotional health and getting rid of anxiety. It's relational health. It's financial freedom. It's spiritual growth. It is looking at the areas of your life and saying, how can I build a life that will last and that will be steady in the midst of chaos, because sometimes life is chaos. So I don't want you to forget about these 3 things: the event in January, the Sister Circle Live January 5th and 6th, the planner— get yours while they last— and then the 3rd thing is the Inner Circle. If you want to be committed to growth this year, then I want to be committed to you. You can go to thesistercircle.com/innercircle for more info. Well, anyway, I didn't want to take up too much of your time, but I wanted to make sure you knew what was happening. So now that you know what is happening, as Fred Sanford would say, let's get back to our regularly scheduled programming.

And I think you've got— everyone's got to look within their sphere of influence. I mean, this is what the Lord's given me, and, um, so I'm accountable for what I've been given. But everyone has a sphere of influence. Um, you know, if I wasn't doing this, well, I still do the other. My daughters have got friends. My house became the place they came. And, you know, even now in summer It's already, um, who's going to come over. I've constantly got my daughter's girlfriends that are over with them, and I see that as my opportunity to be able to mentor them. They're sitting around our table, we're just doing what— I'll drive. I will intentionally, uh, when I'm here, be the driver so you can listen. Oh, I've got them locked in the car. I can hear what they're saying. I can hear— so I see that as mentoring, like 100%. So it's not any less than what I'm doing. It's, it's, it's exactly equal. It's just different. And so every woman— and she might think, well, I haven't got children. Well, you, you can— we've got a sphere of influence. Or you could go and volunteer somewhere. Like, I remember when I was single and young, I would beg the mothers in the church or people in the church to go, could you come and volunteer in the youth ministry? Could you drive kids to you? Even now, case in point, I had someone call me and she's like, you know, she's got, uh, her son and she's away from faith, but she still wants her son to go to church. And she's like, Christine, now I travel most weekends, or I will do this personally, but it's like, I want my son to go to church. So I'm calling my friends from my church and going, this is the best missionary. You don't have to go to another country and be a missionary. All you have to do is on Sunday leave 30 minutes earlier and go past this house, pick up this kid, and drop this kid at youth. And then at the end of church, wait till he's finished talking to all of his friends, and then put him in the car and drop him back to his mother. Uh, it's that simple. Can I just tell you though, Chrystal Hurst, how hard it is to get that? I mean, it breaks my heart.

Why? Why do you think that's—

I don't know why people just think somehow I'm willing to inconvenience myself to fly across the world to do a missions trip But I'm not willing to inconvenience myself for 30 minutes on a Sunday to go out of my way on a Sunday to rearrange my lunch plans with my friends from church on a Sunday so that I've got— this may be my next hobby horse that I'm about to jump on because I feel it.

I feel it coming.

It is because it's been so difficult and it shouldn't be difficult in, in the context that I'm speaking about. In the particular, I'm like, you got to be joking me. That in a church this size I can't find somebody that wants to go out of their way. And then you realize, oh my word, we have turned our own Sunday church experience into such a— this is what I do with either my family, or this is what I do, this is my routine. This is— and I'm like, there is a person whose family is away from faith, but they're like, we— our kid wants to go and we want our kid to go. And I'm like, wow, if I told you that I'm doing a missions trip to come and see the work of A21 in Greece, you'd probably come. But I can't get you on Sunday to go 30 minutes out of that. So I know I'm a bit— this would just turn the conversation a bit, but so when you're saying, Chris, how can it change? It's about that simple. It's like, are you willing to drive somewhere else? Are you willing maybe on a Friday— if the kids' youth group at church meets on a Friday night, are you willing? Because this is what it really means in our comfortable Christian culture thing to go, I'm gonna rearrange it, and I'll be the one that goes, okay, I'll drive kids to youth. And, you know, and wait. And 90% of the time I will feel like it's useless, and then 10% of the time I may get to speak one word, one sentence. Yeah, one thing that is going to be the difference between this kid making it or not making it, staying in faith or not staying in faith. Um, and if we really saw it like that, oh, there's opportunities for everyone to carry the baton to the next generation. You don't have to start a cohort at Wheaton. You could just be willing to rearrange your Friday night or your Sunday morning.

It's so good. That's so good. And it is, it is simple. And the question is simply, are you willing to do what's right in front of you?

And it's inconvenient, but everything— it sounds dramatic. Like, you go, you know, Chris Cain was interrupted when she was in Greece, and now there's A21. And I'm like, the degree to which— and it all sounds great because now A21 is like, wow, there's this global organization. Well, But I had to be willing, like, to be interrupted, to start at Wheaton because I'm so concerned about the next generation. I had to be interrupted to start these cohorts and go, I'm just not going to continue doing things that just I've always done, going here, speaking here, running here. I'm going to dig deep for a minute to dig a well for the next generation. I'm interrupted every time I get to this stage where you go, oh, you're 50 now, you could cruise here, or you're approaching 60, you could do this. It's like the Lord giving an invitation. Are you willing to be interrupted yet again? Because I've got a whole lot more for you. Um, and the degree— I truly believe the degree to which you're willing to be interrupted is the degree to which God will use you. It's got zero to do with your gift and talent and ability. It's the degree to which you're willing to be interrupted. And most of Christians are not willing to be interrupted. We would rather watch The Gilded Age and binge-watch the whole series than volunteer in the nursery. And, you know, basically— I'm sorry to be so blunt, but really—

No, no, no. I just want you to know, everything, the words, I feel all the syllables of all the words that you're saying up and down my spine. Like, it's very clear to me that not only are you passionate about this, but it hit a nerve.

Yeah.

For you. And my hope is that it's hitting a nerve for someone that's listening. I feel like the whole weight of the podcast just ended at that one point. Are you willing? Because the great things that you don't even know to aim for are on the other side. Great in your eyes or in someone else's eyes, but great in the kingdom. They're on the other side of you being willing to be interrupted by the thing you think is just bothersome. It actually is God knocking on the door saying, "I'm trying to use you and your spirit of influence to move a generation, and you won't stop your plans to do what I'm asking you to do." If you had heard me, if you were talking to me at 23 years old when nobody knew me, there's no internet, there's no—

in the back of the suburbs of Sydney, Australia, as I was driving kids to youth group and my friends then, you know, were like, "What are you doing? Like, you're, you know, why are you not out with us on—" it was our youth was on Saturday night. And I was serving, you know, driving kids to discipleship group on Wednesday, and people would think, uh, why? And then on Thursday night, I was doing like youth outreach in the park with at-risk kids. Well, today everyone goes, well, wow, look what the Lord's done, and now you're running a global anti-trafficking, and then you were working with at-risk kids then. Well, I had to be totally interrupted. I wasn't doing what 23-year-olds were doing. I wasn't out with all my friends being out. Yeah, um, I was I, I felt left out and awkward then, and in a large degree I still do now. Because just when I'm at a place where I could be like partying with everyone and being— it's so funny how people would perceive it externally because of social media, I'm sure. But I'm like not in any clique because I'm out, I'm in Poland and running things in the Ukraine with refugees currently. And I'm like, like, when, when I could be sitting around and going I'm not. Like, it's just like, because it's, it's like, okay. And there is a sense— I'm not talking about striving, but just being obedient to the Lord. I rest, I take Sabbath, I'm very serious. I mean, you all know, I hike, I, I make sure that I do that. But, um, I've got to stay willing to be interrupted. Let me just sort of throw that in a little bit more. I talked about Joshua, but then even Caleb Remember when he was 85 in the book of Joshua chapter 14, and you know, he says effectively, the Christine version, he says to Joshua, I'm not cashing in my 401k. Joshua offers him, you know, yeah, he's part of the Promised Land. He says at 85 years old, he says to Joshua, I'm as young now, and meaning strong in that sense spiritually, as I was then. Um, the Lord's been very gracious. And of course, look what God had done for him. He says, but Moses promised me Hebron, and now give me this mountain that's my inheritance. And in that whole chapter, there were certain giants there that the children of Israel had not yet conquered, had not taken out. Um, but only a Caleb could take them out. Only an 85-year-old seasoned saint. Yeah, yeah. Not the awesome millennials and awesome Gen Z, but they did not have the spiritual weight to take this out. So there are some giants that only I can take out after 30-odd years of following Jesus. And there are some giants that, that if I take— if I can go to the end and be faithful, I could take these giants out so that the generation after me doesn't have to contend with— they'll have their own giants, but they won't have to contend with those giants. I think your father, um, is to me such a role model that just unflinching week in and week out. I mean, I listen to him, I watch him, I listen to the wisdom come out going through pain and suffering and trials, but just decade after decade after decade. And you kind of go, how on earth?

Well, I'll tell you, when you were just talking, I was thinking about him because I was thinking, we— I sit there sometimes on a Sunday morning and I would never ask him to change anything that he says or the way that he says it. However, I'm sitting there sometimes on the front row, Christine, and he'll say something, I'll be like, ooh, like, I hope you don't get dinged for that one. And the thing is, he doesn't care. He does not care, and he has nothing to lose. And there is something about, like you said, swinging that bat decade after decade after decade. Not only do you have that spiritual weight and authority, you have a lack of fear because of all the things that you lived with. When I think— and not to be negative, but I do see even in myself sometimes, I see care that we are taking because of social media, so that what we say and how we say it— and of course there's a way to— there's a where and a when to be appropriate. But sometimes I'm thinking, that's that weight that somebody who's been around, they're like, life or death hangs in the balance, and I can't afford to necessarily be couth or political. I just have to say what needs to be said because your life is hanging in the balance. And that's something that I think that weight that you're talking about. I see that in him totally. I was totally envisioning him as you were talking.

I, I think of him often, and it's like, of course we have to have wisdom and discretion and discernment. And there are things your dad could say and things that I can say that if someone in their 20s tried to say, it wouldn't carry the same weight. And I think, um, this is what we all have to understand, even with the platforms, um, that we have and the access to media You still have to know that God has given us a realm of authority. It's the Lord that either increases it. It doesn't matter. Honestly, you can have a lot of followers but not a lot of authority, spiritually speaking. Yeah, you can. So the fact is that from when I was young, people would say, man, your words carry weight. Like, the Lord gave me a disproportionate, um, amount of weight and authority in my words. So what that means though for someone like me is there are plenty of places I have to say nothing, because it's like, um, it's— if the minute I start thinking I can say anything I want about everything, the Lord's like, you know what, how about we just lift the, the weight? Then my words would have no weight. It just becomes— it adds to the noise. Um, why mind isn't just lost in the noise and it's just like clanging cymbal, lousy, like just there's so much noise out there right now. So much. Is because I have to have wisdom and discretion and discernment about what to say, when to say it, how to say it. Um, and is it what God wants me to say? You know, that, that's the whole thing that it comes down to. So the degree to which we could check our ego and the degree to which we could stay faithful to the realm of authority that God has given us. And God enlarges the borders of your tent, you don't. Marketing doesn't do that, God does that. And if you could understand the difference between, you know, being marked by God and being marketed by man, that would change everything that you do, because you have to know the difference spiritually. So good. And we're living in such a culture, you know, we all have to navigate it because we're all in it, you know, we're all in that world. So you have to be in it but not of it. Man, that's not easy. So to keep your spirit fresh and real, you go, okay, what's marketing? Which is not a bad thing, but what's marketing? What's being marked? Where is the anointing and the oil? Um, and where is just, you know, gift or talent? Because a gifting doesn't change anything. A gifting might entertain, a gifting might bless, but it's the anointing that breaks the and chains and bondage. To be anointed means you've got to be squeezed so that oil can come out. And if you've got nowhere where you're being squeezed, um, so that the oil of God can come through your life, then somewhere down the track your life will collapse. And wherever there is a cognitive dissonance between your internal and external world, your world will collapse. You can hide it and filter it and crop it and edit it for so long, but I've been in this thing long enough now whether it takes 10 years, 20 years, or 30 years, it will collapse inevitably.

So you are a strong person, personality. You're designed that way. You also love Jesus and have loved him for a very long time. So when someone's listening to this and they're thinking, well, this is great because this is Christine, you know, who's loved Jesus and drove the kids around in youth and has A21 and has started cohorts in Wheaton. And of course she's going to have influence wherever she is, but she's built this way. Um, you know, your book— I held it up when we started talking— How Did I Get Here, of course, details a season of your life where you didn't necessarily feel as strong as you do now. And I'll, I'll leave the messages of this where, you know, women can, or people can look at how they're drifting from the Lord and how to know how to look at their relationship with God and others and stay anchored in the truth, how to move from a what-if faith to an even-if faith. I'll leave that for the book. Here's what I want to ask you today. For the person who's listening and says, good for Christine, I'm glad this has worked out for her, but they are here, they're here in the space where they know of God, they have had seasons with God, seasons of strength in God, but right now for whatever reason they have drifted away and they feel like an outsider listening to this conversation simply because it doesn't seem to apply to them, right? What would you say to that person who sees it but is not attached to it and certainly doesn't feel like they're in the middle of it? For sure.

Yeah, the first thing I'd say is like, oh, you got to know that God loves you. And here's the good news: you actually cannot outdrift the love of God or the grace of God or the mercy of God or the kindness of God or the goodness of God. And we all have seasons where you kind of almost put your hands up and go, I give up. It's just like, you know. And the, the good news is that God is hanging on to you the whole time. And I think in that, um, instead of trying to get back or trying to grasp, honestly, in all of your honesty, just reach out, go, God, I can't, I don't know how, can you? And lean into his love and his grace and his mercy. Don't put any more requirements on yourself, like, okay, I've got to do— because this kind of conversation can sound exhausting. If it doesn't come from a place of rest and a place of resting in the love and the grace and the mercy of God. It's life-giving when you're in that place because it's like, oh my gosh, I'm in the plan and the purpose of God. But it can sound exhausting. And in fact, you could be listening to me and going, I don't want to be interrupted, exactly for that reason, because I'm like, who wants to be interrupted with all that comes with interruption? So I have just found, and still to, to this day, it would still be my thing, is, Lord, you're going to have to help me want to, because I don't even want to. So help my want. And, um, I would still pray that fairly regularly about different things in my life, where the one thing I don't do is pretend with God. So, and I can be like upfront, like honestly, and especially he's the worst. One of the bad things about getting older is you really understand the cost. So, you know, Jesus says, don't do anything without counting the cost. I'm like, oh my gosh, this cost is going to be massive. I'd rather go sit on Santorini and watch the sunset. Um, and so I literally have to say to the Lord, which is what I'm trying to tell someone to say if you're feeling drifting, is like, okay, help me to want to. A little bit like the dude that was like, help my unbelief. Really want to believe, help me to believe. I can't see it because I'm really enjoying binge-watching The Gilded Age right now. It's working for me. So, you know, it's like, you know, some people felt guilt and tingles down their spine, but a whole lot of others are like, you know what, I'm good. And so I'm like, you've got— it starts with asking God, I want to. I mean, you just gotta call it what it is. And at every point, it's like, okay, God, you're gonna have to help me.

I love that. And I love you. And I'm so grateful for your unashamed boldness. And it doesn't matter what you're talking about, really. I mean, it's— you bring that to the conversations that you're having about Jesus when you're preaching about the gospel, but you bring that to everything. That's why A21 is here. That's why the cohort is here. But even in that, the boldness that you say to the person who's listening that goes, how does any of this apply to me? Just saying, listen, just tell him you don't want to and ask him to help you want to. Like the boldness and simplicity, even in that statement is still an echo of who you are. So thank you so much for joining me. I'm glad we were able to make this work. We know we tried another day and it didn't. And even today we had an interruption, but I think this is because it was a conversation we needed to have. So thank you so much. Well, thank you.

I love you with all my heart.