Coming Up for Air with Angie Smith

Angie Smith, y'all. You should know who she is. I feel like she doesn't really even need an introduction because she's Angie Smith. She's all things reality, walking us through grief and loss and family and hilarity and raising girls. And then if you look at her, listen to her, watch her, follow her, read her stuff long enough, she'll be in your head because she has this psychoanalytical background. And I have been in Angie's presence a couple of times. Both of those times I just felt her gazing into the depths of my soul and I was very uncomfortable. So there's that. Welcome, Angie.

That's one of the best introductions I've ever gotten. Although I have to say, before we started recording, at one point you said, because how did you say it? And you're like, because you're a psycho and all that. Like, do you mean like psychoanalytical?

Yeah, I did fix it. Psychoanalytical. I threw that on there. Because what is it technically?

Probably—

what do you technically have?

Technically, my master's degree is in developmental psychology. So, okay, yeah.

And you got that because you wanted to do what?

I really wanted to be at first a psychologist, like sitting down with kids, talking to them, doing more of a counseling sort of thing. But I went to Vandy here, and the program was super heavy on research. So I just got kind of through it and I was like, I don't think I can sit in a room with— I love the research, but not all day long working with numbers. It would probably— I'd go crazy. So anyway, so I basically didn't end up using my degree at all.

Yeah. Oh sure you did. You're raising children. So I'm curious, do your, do your children ever, knowing that you— since the girls are older, knowing that you have that background, ever feel like you're Like one of my friends who's a counselor counselor, her daughter literally says, "You're counseling me. Don't counsel me." Like she knows when she slips into that mode. Do your kids notice that at all about you?

They do. But I think what's hilarious is that they, my oldest two, would make me look like I'm the best mother who ever lived. So then I became convinced I was. And then God was like, "That's adorable." Here's your third. But my oldest two, she's— we are always saying, we're like, you know, there's a good chance she's gonna have a prison ministry from the inside. Girl, just her own little thing. She's actually absolutely incredible. And then my youngest. But my oldest two, um, they actually are really interested in it and really appreciate it. And so all the time they'll be like, there's this guy at school, I'm gonna bring him home.

Basically like, you do your thing on him, can you work your magic, sprinkle your magic dust?

But yeah, I think what happens is I do— I've realized that I do that with people. I think what it is, and you would understand this, is there's something about even going through grief and going through just getting older in life where I'm like I'm not being so careful to like offend. Like, how are you? I'm more like, it sounds like you're, you're really struggling. What's going on? Tell me what's happening. You know what I mean? Like, just there's like a bluntness that I feel like people respond to instead of trying to dance around it.

Oh yeah, the dance. We're done with the dance. Plus, you know, um, how old are you? I'm over 40. I'm well over 40. Are you in your 40s? You're in your 40s, right? Yes.

Okay.

Yeah, I think also as we just as moms, the mom juice, the mom skill, the mom development, just the on the job, on the on-the-job training. And just being a woman over 40, I feel like you reach a point where you're like, ain't nobody got time to, you know, to be pansying around these things. It's like, we just gotta hit it.

Exactly right. No, that's right. And I think that's a big part of it, is just like, in psychology or anything, you're like, what is the best way for me to assess the situation, enter into it? And like, we don't have the time for, you know, like, let's just do it. And I, I actually love that. I mean, I think even talking about hard things like we were before, you know, we officially started recording. At this point, I'm just sort of like, I, I think sometimes we're so careful that we're really delicate and we don't actually get to the thing that we were trying to talk about, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, um, it's a, it's a season of life for sure where I'm so sensitive about time and what needs to be said so that you're not— you're not clear. You don't lack clarity, or what I'm trying to say, that you don't have a lack of clarity. And, you know, just saying it like it is. I mean, I just— yeah, it's just a whole season for that. One of the things I admire the most about you is how you let us into your life through the variety of seasons. And let us walk through. I mean, you, you know, your blog started when you were talking about— what was the name of it? The rain? What was the name of the blog?

Yeah, well, it was Bring the Rain.

Bring the Rain.

Do you like how I had to think about it? I was like, yeah, it was rain.

Yes, because I mean, you know, now it's all official. Angie Smith Ministries and all the things. I mean, but I remember, you know, walking through that and you have morphed and grown and developed your ministry and just your motherhood and what you're sharing through the years. It's like as you've walked through seasons of life, because of the immediacy and the importance of— I just want, even if I'm not telling you, that I'm showing you, this is what this looks like for me to go through this. You're not alone. You're not the only one. Like, you're not weird. Like, this is the ebb and the flow of life. And I think that the gifting that allowed you, I mean, frankly, the anointing, because everybody goes through it but doesn't know how to go through it and talk about it. Or, you know, and also the gifting and the talent to write. For you to start with, "This is my journey with my child." And for that to go into, "This is the journey with my parents." And for this to go into, "This is the journey with me through God's word." I mean, the whole way through, you're doing the same thing over and over again. Let me show you. Let me show you. Yeah, what is—

of course there was— did you happen to hear that call coming in and all the kids screaming in my house?

I sure did, and that's fine because you know what, this is how we do it. It's the summer, the kids are here.

Turn off my notifications, girl, please.

And I will leave that all right in because this is—

you're like, you really let us into your life. The kids are screaming.

Cue on cue.

I don't know how to not.

This is it. This is it. So, so this is my, this is my question for you. Okay. So I watched you as you were walking through your dad's passing, you know, and the picture forever is etched on my mind of you kneeling at the bed. You kneeling at the bed, forever etched. Yeah. How are you today? Where are you today?

I'm still really struggling, to be honest. And I think that's one of the answers that people maybe who are in the midst of it don't exactly want to hear. So I'm not saying it isn't better. But I will say it's, it's okay to have it sort of ebb and flow. I think there are times right now where And I felt this way after Audrey too. When you get a little bit farther out, you sort of prime yourself for like, Christmas is going to be hard.

Yeah.

His birthday is going to be hard. Father's Day is going to be hard. And so there's something about you that's sort of like bracing for the things that are obviously going to be coming. But there's no way to brace yourself for the things that sneak up. And I think that's the season where I am, which is just, I'll walk into a department store and see a shirt that I know he would have loved, or, you know, just these small things that I never would have even noticed before. I wouldn't have picked up on them. And so I don't know, do you— I can't remember exactly like that long ago what I was feeling like, because you're a little bit closer.

Yeah, I think, I think struggling is a good word. I think I was thinking today, I don't even remember what the small thing was today, But I remember thinking, how do I define this? Like, I know grief can be defined with all types of emotions and feelings and words. But I think I just, I just feel sorry that she's not here. It's like, like, and I also project out my personal emotions sometimes. So my way of doing that is to say, Mom, I'm sorry, you're not here for this. Like, even though I know she's Heavenlies and all the things. I got it. But yeah, I'm still like, not I wish you could be here to see this for me. Like, I wish my biggest thing with my mom, and I don't care what anybody says about Jesus because I love Jesus, but my mother very clearly was not in a season of life where she was like, you know, yeah, I've lived a great life and this is— she was like, I'm just getting to the good part. And she was really looking forward to the time in my— in her life with my dad, where they were just going to be more free. Looking forward to the time in her life when she wasn't cooking, she was coming to our house when we were cooking because we're more settled. And the house that I'm in now, my brother said to my dad when we were looking at it, Dad, this, this is her house. He said, what do you mean? What do you say? Because this is Mom's house. Mom would have loved this house. And I'm sorry she didn't get to see this house. She would have so enjoyed. So it's that feeling. It's like a sadness for her, even though I know that that's not a thing. That's my way of feeling sad. I'm not sad that she's not here. I'm sad for her that she's not here. Is that weird? Does that make sense?

That's a great— no, I actually think that's a really good perspective because you can land on a place where you're not sorry you know, she's not sorry for where she is, right? So at least you can— like, mine is more selfish. You could— so you can get to a place where it's like, I'm sorry, I didn't— you know, she didn't get to experience this, but she wouldn't come back and experience it if she had the choice right now, you know? Mine is like— mine, I think, is just more of a— like, I, you know, and it's like graduations or whatever it is, like events that are happening right now.

I want him here.

Yes. And it's just a strange thing, especially right now because there's so much going on. I always feel like there are seasons in my life where I felt like I was drowning, and even in those seasons I was like, I've got to come up for air.

Yes.

Like, I've got to have something where I can just feel like it's normal and I can laugh. And so for me, it, it's always been that combination where I'm comfortable. So this is the kind of interview I prefer to do. Thank you for your grace.

So how do you write these books? Like, like, I literally have had moments where I thought, I know what I believe is true. I know what I have faith is true. Right now, I'm just not feeling it. And how do I— I mean, when your job his ministry and talking about Jesus and writing books about— I mean, this is what this says: helping you tie together. I'm reading the back cover copy of Woven. How do you tie together all the loose disconnected threads you find in the Bible, weaving them into a beautifully crafted storyline when you're like, God, you are the author of that story and you're not making any sense in mine? Like, How do you deal with the reality of who you are and what you do, and the reality of who you are and where you are?

Yeah, that's a question I've asked myself a whole lot, especially in the last few years. And I think the truth is that one of the things that happened was after I lost my dad, which was— I mean, he was the hero of my entire life. Like, I Even now, it, it's really hard for me to think about him not being here. Um, yeah. And 2 months after he passed away, my grandmother passed away. She was 100. She had an amazing life, but there's just a lot that, you know, family dynamics my mom has had some pretty severe mental illness. There's a miracle story in there as well, but I think it— I could have walked away from Jesus. I think there was a point where my heart was so broken and he was so— he felt so quiet and so distant that I, I know that I never would have, but it's the closest that I've been to just saying, how, how could you be this God that I've believed in and let this happen? And the irony is, um, that while LifeWay was extremely gracious as far as my deadlines when my dad was sick, there were still things that had to be written. Yep. I mean, I had a deadline.

Yep.

And so basically the Lord said, get back get back in your Bible. You don't have a choice, you got a deadline. And it— so it was one of those like sweet— and I, I was still able to pour my emotion into it. And I was writing about Jesus, and I'm writing about the cross and about loss and all of these things. And I think it was infused with the season of life that I was in. But what I love about it is this, you know, Jesus is like Do you really think I'm not going to find a workaround to this? You know, like, because I'm such a learner, I love— I'm such an academic that that was, that was the transition that I needed to just sort of get back in. And then, yeah, I feel like that— I say this and it sounds like a— it sounds kind of cheesy, but I would describe that season as the season where I lost my dad and found my father. I think that's like the summary of what that felt like. Um, but I miss him so much, and I know you, I know you understand that. Um, but I think it's okay to say that, you know. I think there's— it's just one of those things where I've never shied away from talking about doubt and struggle. And the irony is there are people who do, and the Bible doesn't, you know. I'm like, God gave us all these examples of these amazing people who betrayed him, who doubted him, you know. And so for me, I just think I couldn't live in a Christian bubble where we never had permission to say that. And so anyway, that's how I write them. It's my own therapy session.

Well, and isn't that the truth? Which is why sometimes writing can be so hard because sometimes therapy sessions are hard. The wrestling of who you are, where you are, what you think, whether or not it's true, how you feel, it's hard. I love the tone of how you talk and how you— I've made up a word— therapize yourself. You therapize yourself.

Oh, I like that. That's what psychos do, Chrystal Hurst.

Therapize, I know. I know. You were talking in Woven about David. This is the tone, and then you land on something that I think is pertinent for what we're talking about right now. You say, "And though David was understandably disappointed at hearing from Nathan that the temple would not be his own personal legacy project to undertake, he was reverent about it. He deferred to God's decisions without arguing or complaining." And then you say, "I just love David." and his heart so much, don't you? I mean, even there, it's very clear. I'm telling you this, I'm using very common language. I'm having you look at this from David's perspective, and I'm looking at this from David's perspective, but from my perspective as well. This is what I love about this. And the reason why I was looking at this and connecting this as well here is because I think this is the journey for David. He was okay in his honesty. And when the Bible says in Acts that David was a man after God's own heart, why is that? Because he sure did screw up royally. I mean, multiple times.

Yes.

So what made that the case? And I think him being willing to be naked and unashamed, which is how we were created to be, his willingness to be so naked and so unashamed consistently and ongoingly throughout his life. Because ultimately, what does God want anyway? He just wants us to give him our whole heart, all of it, right? Even the parts that are not pretty.

That's right.

I think that that's what makes you easy to follow, easy to believe, easy to understand, and easy to learn from, is because you're willing to be, you know, in appropriate ways, kind, naked and unashamed with us. Um, How has your vulnerability and transparency been a problem? Like, it's a good thing. We know we need to be authentic. We got to do it. And, and I think for you and I, we're built that way. Like, there are some people who really struggle to do it, and it's just— yeah, it just flows out. But has it ever been problematic? Were you exposed too much? Were that gave people permission that they really didn't have. Like, how has that been something for you to hold in tandem and to work through the positive benefits of that for us and then negative maybe benefits for you? Are there any?

That's a good question.

I—

the first thing I thought of when you were saying that though is I feel like, and I just recently was able to kind of put this into words with a friend of mine, but I said since the beginning of my ministry, I have felt like a fraud. I have felt like people are going to find out that they, you know, credit me for all of these things. And, you know, you'll stand in signing lines, so you do whatever, and you meet people. And I just kept praying like, Lord, why do I feel like a fraud? And I think I was finally able to put it together. And what it is, is people are always complimenting me, right, for being vulnerable and for being honest and real, as if it's something that, you know, everyone would say, "You're so brave to do that. You're so whatever," when the truth is I'm more comfortable doing that. So it doesn't feel like I'm doing this thing that's so hard and that I should get credit for it. It's like, no, it's— that's just how I do things. And so there's this part of me that's not really known how to balance it as we, you know, admire this about you, or how do you do this? And like, you know, does that make sense? And so like, sort of in my head, I'm like, I don't know that you understand, this is how I would do it anyway. I didn't— I, you know, and so it's just a weird thing that I was finally able to sort of say, I'm not lying about anything I believe, but I feel like I get these compliments that I don't feel like I should receive. And I think the reason is because I'm like, it's who you are. I'd rather do it this way. Like, it's so— it's more comfortable for me to be vulnerable, whether I'm in a group of 10 or a group of 10 million. It's just— it's how I'm wired. It isn't something that I like every day fight through to be vulnerable, you know what I mean? And so Anyway, so I think there's that. That's something that I've been sort of processing lately. I would say one of the only times— I don't know why this is the thing that came to mind, but you know what's fun for a writer?

Whoo!

One-star reviews. I love those. I love those one-star reviews.

You're not supposed to read them, Angie. You're not even supposed to look.

No, I have a 2. I am an Enneagram 2, so let me tell you. Do I read my 5 stars?

No.

Why would I? I just want to know who hates me. I want to know who thinks I'm doing a terrible job. You want to be mean to me? Let me tattoo that on my person. I mean, it's so bad. But there were a couple that I read, one in particular, and I will tell you what it said, as horrific as it is, because I still remember it. It was after Audrey, my daughter, had passed away the day she was born. And someone wrote, I'm glad that baby kicked the bucket. She looked like an alien. And I remember thinking, my God in heaven, I have exposed my daughter to this. Come after me, come after me all you want, but that baby is off limits. And I just thought, have I opened up something that now she is exposed? And And I will tell you, to their credit, Amazon took it down. Um, but it was that— there was that moment. The moments where I feel that way are when I'm being vulnerable about my experience but includes other people.

Yes.

So I'm very cautious of that with my family, with, you know— but in that situation, she wasn't here to be a part of it. And so that season was hard. In the vulnerability aspect because I felt like I was exposing her, um, and telling my story, and it just was really raw.

When you say come after me all you want, I'm sure that that probably has happened here and there. So do you really just not care? And I'm asking this question because I think, yeah, you know, in our conversations about grief and loss and vulnerability and sharing and how that is a great thing because it helps me read you as a teacher of the Bible. It helps me read you and know you, which is why, you know, I'm sorry, sidebar. That's why reading the Bible is one thing, but knowing God by reading his word relationally, it's another thing. The words come off the page because you know the author. In this same way, I can read your stuff and connect with it because you're a good writer, but I can also connect with it when I know the author. So there's, there's this part of it that us getting to know you has this benefit, but it also means because you're doing this that you are exposed. And one of the things that people who want relationship connection, sisterhood, friendship, and they'll say to me, I struggle with being known. One of the things they're afraid of is people seeing the chink in the armor and coming after it. So while it's natural for you, how do you deal with that? Because there are people who want connection and want to broach authentic, you know, living to do that. And they're afraid of that. So how do you deal with that?

Listen, this is what I always say to people. You— if I'm speaking, if I'm whatever, if you have— if you want to write me the nastiest letter you can think of, if you want to criticize me, If you want to call me every name in the book, write out the email, spend all your time doing it. I have an incredible assistant and I will literally never see any of those emails. I mean, the truth is they destroy me. I mean, I again, too, like, I, I've gotten thicker skin over the years. I've just gotten to the point where I have to understand that that is going to happen, but let me tell you, this one example will answer everything you could think of for how I respond to this. When my father was alive, our whole thing in my family is make sure everyone's happy. Don't, you know, everyone's gonna be good, don't leave the room unless I— don't upset anyone, don't— and so this is a true story, my dad went one of my Amazon reviews and he saw a 1, a 1-star review, read it, called me and said, Angela, I, I don't know if you have seen, there's a 1, 1-star review, um, her name is Becky 24.

I don't know if you could reach out to her and see if you could.

It has taken me a long time to not try and make things right with everyone. And I still wouldn't say I accept it in the way that it just like rolls off my back and I never think about it again. But it's gotten better. And the one thing, if you ever ask my kids what I say when anyone asks me for advice, when anyone, it's always the same: kindness wins. Kindness wins. And so for me, one of the things I've had to learn is that in my Italian spirit, my, my first 3 response emails do not ever need to be sent. Yeah, yeah. I need to work through what you just said to me and how much I want to come back after you. And I, I think I had to learn early on that with certain people who just have things they want to say there's no point in, you know, engaging in that. But that was hard for me because I come from a place that's like, you misunderstood me, here's where you're wrong, and now let's figure it out, you know. And you just— you can't do that. So that's terrible advice for anyone. Well, I say get an assistant.

Well, but let's bring that off of the platform, like in your— in your non- platform, yeah, life. Has your authenticity ever cost you anything?

Hmm.

Or is just everybody ever around you, family and friends, everybody's safe?

I wouldn't say everybody's safe. I think I've gotten better at eliminating people when I realize they're not safe. Um, And, and there I can think of a few instances where I knew that something I had said had been taken out of context and shared with other people. And so I always say, like, if you can't— if you're following an Instagram, if you're around someone, if you can't give the benefit of the doubt, that's not someone you need to continue, you know. And I just started seeing people who wouldn't give me the benefit of the doubt and try and understand, that I felt like I couldn't trust behind my back. And that, that's a really hard— that's a trigger for me, is, you know. So I have a lot of friends who are teaching me in the season to, um, when conflict comes up, to deal with it head-on, which is really incred— it's incredibly difficult for me. But what I found is that safe people are the ones who let me do that, and I know they're not going to run away. So I know they're going to come to me if something is wrong. I know I can go to them and it's not going to ruin our friendship. But that— I mean, I'm 45. It's taken that long for me to get to the point where— do you— what do you do?

Oh, I talk to people like you and process, because I'm trying to figure out, did I do something Yes, that's like, I'm trying to figure out my problem is, you know, I'm a 3, so, and I wing 2 when I'm working and I wing 4 when I'm creating. But my issue is I want to be right. So I don't have a problem cutting you out, but I just want to make sure I'm right. Like, am I missing something? Or I don't need to, I don't have a problem saying I'm sorry. But I need to make sure that's the right thing. Because what if I'm telling you sorry and really it wasn't me, it was you? Like, you know, so I just, I feel sometimes like I'm floating, trying to make the right decision. And sometimes I err too much to giving people the benefit of the doubt. And sometimes I err too much to cut them out quickly. And the angst of which one I'm supposed to do, that's my problem.

That's so interesting though, that you would say that I'm right. I would say that's a big part of mine. But it's trumped by being liked.

Yeah.

So I, I will, I'm, I will passive-aggressively let you know that I am right, but I will end it in a way where you like me. I'm not good at being blunt about that. If I know it's gonna hurt someone or they're gonna be mad at me, or could you do that?

Like if you knew someone was gonna be furious with you, you would still say, "If I knew I was right." So the thing is, I'm zero or 60. I'm either pandering and, "Oh my gosh, I'm not clear because I want to make sure I didn't hurt your feelings," or I'm absolutely positive I'm right and I don't feel the need to mince words. So trying to walk—

I love that.

Trying to be 35 miles an hour and to do a little bit of both is so stressful for me. It takes so much energy.

That is so interesting.

Interesting, because I'd rather just tell you off or, yeah, pander until we don't even know what I said.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh, that's so funny. You're probably Justice. There's probably a lot of Justice in you though, like it's black and white.

This is— see how you just switched? You just switched to psychoanalytical situation. That's what happened.

I did not.

You're like, that's interesting.

Do you still like me?

I still like you. I still like you. Okay, so the one book I don't have, Angie, in front of me, I just realized it. That's why I was looking around I don't have Matchless, so I don't know if I didn't get it, but can you tell me what Matchless is? Because I've looked at the other two, the journal that you have for Bible reading, which is awesome, and then Woven. But what is Matchless about?

So Matchless is about the life and love of Jesus. And it, yeah, it was just like the Bible study that came out after Seamless. I wanted to focus just on the life of Jesus. And I just think there are so many things in scripture that we assume about Jesus or situations that we think happened a certain way that didn't really happen that way, or just stories about who he was as a man on earth. I think that he didn't, he didn't, he didn't just come to, you know, he wanted to be with us. He wanted to live a life with us. And I think it's easy. To separate. We kind of focus on the divinity sometimes without really thinking, you know, this was a man. Like, when we say he traveled with the disciples, even, it's like we say that, but we— I don't necessarily think I, for a long time, stopped to think these guys were best friends. Yeah, they knew which one snored, they knew which one someone flirted with every time they went to a town, they knew, you know. And so when you process that, you think of betrayal in a totally different way. It's not just Judas now. It's like, that was— but that was why—

your friend, your for-real friend.

Yeah. And I mean, for— from years and years going through all of these things. And so there's a part where I wrote, and I cried the whole time I wrote it, about Mary watching Jesus be crucified. And it's easy for us to take these, you know, markers in scripture that we know of but there's nowhere in there that talks about how, you know, she wiped his knees when he fell and, and, you know, he would run to his dad when he came home from work, or she would have to go in and tuck him in because he had nightmares, or, you know, that he was her son. And so it's— I just think it's easy to isolate certain events and forget the big picture of the fact that he came to live as a man, and he did. And it just, for me, has made me think of different stories in a way that I hadn't before. I mean, the part about Mary, just— I was just thinking about her watching this, the nails, and watching him be dragged, and thinking, he isn't just the Son of God, it's— it— this is her son she's looking at, and she can't separate You know, she is watching him as any of us would as a mother and just thinking about all the stories they have in their life and the things that made him laugh and what he would— you know, it's just a— I think I was undone by understanding the humanity of Christ and his life here on Earth. So I— yeah, but I wrote that in the midst of my dad after he passed away. So that was one where it, it was— it, you know, it was written from a perspective of sort of just being in the depth of wrestling and seeing him show up, which, you know, I'm grateful that he found a way to, to have me get back in to the word. And not just that, but to the place where I could see him in being related to me in a different way than this faraway God, which I had sort of started to like— I feel distant from you. And then I started reading, I'm like, he was a man, he lived this, he, you know, it isn't just this faraway God who can't relate and can't empathize. So as usual, God has really good timing. He's always good at that.

Well, the last question I wanted to ask you, you kind of hinted towards it. The basic question is, how did you end up teaching the Bible? You were blogging about losing your daughter, and then now you're teaching the Bible. The bridging of Angie the authentic one— even though I know this is not the thing that you're trying to do, it's who you are— and Angie the authentic one who is saying, I, I love God's word and I want to walk through it and show you what I see as I'm connecting with these truths and these facts in an authentic way. But I'm just curious, you're, you're the right person for this job. Show me, teach me, show me what you're learning. But how did you go from writing the books about— writing the blogs about this is what's happening with my life, right, to being the Bible teacher Angie?

And it's a weird—

wonderfully marrying the two because it's all you. It's— I mean, it's still all you, but still it is.

But I would say I think that, um, part of it was when I was in graduate school, and I would consider myself a pretty smart person. I'm very nerdy and I did very well in school, but I became a believer while I was in grad school and was invited to a Bible study. I don't know what that was. I mean, I, I brought my Precious Moments Bible because, like, this— to the second one, I didn't even know I was supposed to bring one to the first one. But, um, the irony— there's a lot of details about that make me laugh. But basically they would be talking about stuff and I'm like, I don't— so there are chapters in the Bible, like, and I could not for the life of me understand the overarching story of scripture. So I was like, okay, I know there's like a fish in Jonah. Okay, throw that there. I know there was this thing, throw that there. And it frustrated me so much that I went and sat on the floor in the children's section at Lifeway, pulled out all the kids' Bibles, like picture Bibles, then like graduate to a few words, you know. I'm sure I was such a creeper, like me and like the VeggieTales. The moms are like, ah, oh no, she's stranger danger. But I hope— for me, it's always getting back to the basic, like, start with the big, big, big picture, and then I can start going in. And so I think after the blog and after that experience, I think the blog was me kind of like you said, just like marrying what my story was and also how I was relating it to scripture. But my passion has always been the passion to figure out what I would hand to the girl who's sitting in the middle of a bookstore that just says like, okay, like, I love to make things simple because that's how I understand them.

Yes.

So I think there was something that people could connect with in that I'm not this brilliant scholar who, you know, I don't have like, I don't know, everyone in your family is gifted at everything. Okay, Chrystal Hurst, I don't have that. Girl, listen.

Tony Evans is the scholar. The rest of us are like, like he literally says to us, you know, you got that from me, right? We're like, yes, because we're not reading all that. We just, you said it. That's good enough. We will go with that. So we're really just all overflow carriers. That's basically it.

Oh my gosh. Meanwhile, I'm trying to figure out why Martha, mom of 3, is writing me negative reviews. That's what I learned. We all get something.

We all get something.

Yes, but no, I do. I think there's a lot to be said about being honest about the way that you want to understand, understand things about the Bible, and being honest about the fact that it's complicated. And yeah, but it doesn't mean we can't understand it. So yeah, that was— I think it was just that transition from blogging and connecting to trying to keep doing that, which I love the way you said that. That was a really kind— it's a really kind thing to say.

Well, here is the thing, and I'm gonna say it not to be kind but because it's true. You kind of said earlier you get applauded for being authentic and it's just who you are, and I know that you don't want to be applauded because that's who you are, but I need to. And, and the reason why is because There are people who, who, because that's how they're wired for a variety of reasons, they learned not to be. They allowed the one-star review to change the way they function. They allowed the lessons that they learned that were hard knocks of life to change, and they are not honest with themselves about who they really are and what they really want. And often that also gets in the way of them willing to be open, honest, full-faced, and full-hearted with God because they're walking in protection mode. They don't— they, they have not been able to, because of pain, to continue to, to be authentic, to be who they are, or choose authenticity, scared to death to do it. And I think you saying, hey, I, I've written books about God and what I've learned walking through pain and grief, and I'm sharing that. I have lost a daughter, and I did that early on in my writing career. That's who I was, and I was doing what I was designed to do. And to look at the blessing that that authenticity has continued to bring to you, for you to be who you are for that blessing to bless others as we watch your life and read your books and learn from you and how that encourage all— encourages all of us in the faith. So I know it's not a thing for you. It's who you are. But I know that for some people, they need to know that you need to know that you doing it, though, is still teaching us. It's, it's healing us. It is guiding us to what our relationship with our Father can be when we choose to walk openhearted. Even through the pain and the trouble and the difficulty that life brings. So you being you, as effortless as it might be, is still a gift. And I want you to receive that gift when people tell you that. Receive the gift. It's a gift. And you are choosing, even as effortless as it might be, to give that gift to us. So thank you so much for doing that.

My goodness, I love you.

And here comes the levity.

I mean, seriously, I'm listening and I'm like, I want to crawl in my shirt. But here's what I'll say about that. It is very hard for me to receive. But for the people who maybe have struggled with their vulnerability or maybe thought of themselves looking a certain way, and this may blow up in my face, but my first thought is if you've been listening to us talk this whole time, and you've been hearing me be vulnerable, do you think less of me because of it? I don't think many people do. And so, and you know, so you, you have to go into it thinking that, you know, you can see it modeled by other people and remember that if that's who you are made to be, then other people will respond the same way that you have to me.

That's so good. So very good. Angie, thank you so much. I'm grateful for you, girl.