DawnChere Wilkerson on Leading Others Well

Thanks so much for joining me for another episode of the Sister Circle Podcast. I'm your host, Chrystal Evans Hurst. And once a week you get me by myself solo, and another time during the week you get me and a friend. So today I am talking to someone who's been on our podcast before. Her name is DawnCherie Wilkerson, DC for short. Her and her husband Rich are pastoring in Florida. And the last time I talked to her, we talked a lot about family and we talked a lot about ministry and children and motherhood. Creativity, because she also is a creator of music and so many things. But one thing that we touched on that I wanted to dive into a much deeper well about was this idea of leadership. She and her husband Rich are pastoring their church together, and they've served in ministry together. They dated as teenagers and then got married and have been in ministry, but now are pastoring.. And she has such a meek and gentle spirit, um, such a soft-spoken way about her, so much grace. And I wanted to talk about what it is like, what it has been like to grow in leadership. What has she learned? How to manage people, how to communicate with people when hard conversations need to be had, how to handle doing what you did last year, being different than what you have to do this year, how to handle elevation, how to handle Glory to Glory. What does it look like to do what you need to do in this season that's different than last season? Like maybe you have to delegate more this season, or maybe you have to, um, embrace new talents and skills you didn't even know you had. I mean, I ask her all the questions, and what you need to know is this is not her normal lane of conversation, at least not that I know of. I just felt led— that led to ask her questions that would pour into something I had a hunch she would talk about. Well, listen, the Holy Spirit does not lie, because my hunch was more than a hunch. This woman has gold to share regarding leadership, regarding ministry, regarding growth, regarding people, regarding the difficulties of leadership and the glories of the same. And all of this laced with what it looks like to have God lead you, to offer him what you have and to not let what you don't have— yes, I know that was a double negative— to not let what you don't have get in the way of you putting your feet firmly planted where he's placed you. So if you deal with people in any way, shape, or form, do you work with them? Do you parent them? Do you lead them? Do you manage them? If you have people, the best of the worst of the glory and the tension, man, this podcast is for you. If you want to know more about DawnCherie Wilkerson, feel free to find her on Instagram, social media. We've linked all of that in the show notes, but also the church VOUS Church. That's V-O-U-S. Voo Church. You can find out more, particularly if you're in the Florida area, about their ministry also by visiting their church's website, which we've also linked in the show notes. All right, y'all want to hear it? Here it goes. Y'all, sometimes I need to have somebody back. That's the bottom line. Sometimes I just enjoy so much the conversation and think that beyond my enjoyment that there is so much from our first conversation that we just didn't get to. And every now and then that'll happen at the end of a conversation, at the end of an interview, you'll hear me say, I'm going to have to have you back because there's so many things I still want to ask you. Well, my guest today, DawnCherie Wilkerson, is one of those people. DawnCherie, DC, she gave me permission to call her. Um, and not only I think is she a wealth of wisdom, but she also has a very unique opportunity that God has given in her life to love her family, to love her children, to love God's church, and to lead in God's church. And I think that that unique position, as well as her unique story— I will make sure that if you didn't hear the first episode, that it's linked in the show notes for today. So be sure and just click through to get to the show notes in the next episode. If you want to find out about more of our first conversation. But the reality is that when you have the opportunity to love people in a very 360 multidimensional way, your children, your husband, your family, your friends, but also lead in loving people in God's church, in ministry, leading up and leading down. It gives you this really, I think, really neat opportunity to learn what it was like to really walk in Jesus' experience because he did everything that I just said in a 360 way too. He came, he served, he suffered, he led, he discipled, he mentored. And so many of these things are involved in that journey. So there are a few things that I want to talk to DC about today, but I'm excited to have her here back today and to get another dimension of getting to know her too. So welcome, DawnCherie.

Thank you. I'm so glad to be with you. I've been looking forward to it. I, I loved our last convo, and this morning I was getting ready for work and I was just thinking about the last time we spoke, and I was so— my heart was just really expectant. It's been expectant all day just to get to have some time to talk, talk from the heart. So thank you for having me again.

Oh, you're so welcome. I think that one of the things I was most delighted, uh, to experience in our last conversation, honestly, is just how multi-dimensional you are as a person, um, how multi-dimensional you are being in this season of your life, um, because, you know, babies are a thing, little kids are a thing, it's a whole thing.

And when you marry that—

yeah, and when you marry that with Um, not just growing kids, but growing ministry. Um, of course, continuing to grow in marriage and growing your own capacity as a leader. You're a creative, you are a music maker. And so you're, um, in that realm as well, growing in your craft. Um, so many things I think to learn from you. And in our last conversation, I just feel like we skimmed the surface in what you had to share. And I wanted to have you back to share a little bit more. So before we started officially with our official recording, you told me that you have recently given Jesus 6 months.

That's it.

So you're homeschooling your 5-year-old. You're— why are we homeschooling the 5-year-old? Why is this even happening?

Well, he— okay, this has been the craziest adventure ever. In January, I started homeschooling Wyatt, my 5-year-old, and he, uh, has since he was 3, been kind of what you would call a homeschool pod with another family. And my friend who is the other mom has been teaching him, and it's been such a cool thing. And they still get together like 2 days a week for— to go to the park or to the museum. But I just started like kind of feeling a stirring in my heart last fall, and so really took some time to ask God, okay, what, what are you trying to say? And I felt I felt like I was supposed to just try it, just January to June homeschooling him, uh, and been so encouraged by so many other moms, uh, just how to lean into the moment. And so this is what I said. I said, if I can't fail, if, if he— if, if it doesn't go well and I, I just completely flop in teaching, he's 5, at least like we got time together. You know, he, he's still in K4. He's not even starting kindergarten. I know I can get the alphabet and the basics into him, and then if it works, then maybe it blazes a trail for the future. But I'm giving God these 6 months. Already it's been insane. But I, I do like having something positive to do with him where I feel like I can see his gaps, the areas that he's really winning in, and try to shore up the other areas. So it's has given me more knowledge as to like where he's at. That's the really good thing.

Yeah.

The not good thing is that our lives are insane, but that's what homeschool is supposed to be for, is, is, you know, here one week, here another place the next. And so I'm just, I'm along for the ride. I definitely feel like I'm learning more than he is. There's no question. I'm grateful that he is the kind teacher.

So when you say insane, are we talking about just homeschooling or not, that you just have a lot going on in your life. So adding homeschool to that, just— yeah.

Well, and another change for me is last fall I was really feeling like I needed to make space. I've been in ministry now for 15 years with my husband. We've been married for 16 years. We've been together for 21 years. And I just felt like now I've got 3 kids, 5 years old, 3 years old, 1. And while we've had a certain pace for the last 15 years in ministry, and about 8 years ago we planted a church. I kind of felt like this year was going to have a new pace, and so I really created space in my calendar because I was like, God, I want new. Like, I— not just new for new's sake, but I'm ready to grow and to be stretched and just make room for what you want. And so with that, it's not that it's chaotic, it's just, um from a practical standpoint, I usually try to homeschool Wyatt. He's only 5, he's just in kindergarten. It takes no more than an hour and then he goes to his other activities. So I do it before I go to work. But like, for instance, Monday morning we had a funeral that we were leading for, um, a family in our community. And so we left the house at 8. And then yesterday we were hosting like the local pastors for South Florida Pastors in our space of breakfast, so I left at 8. So So it's just some weeks look really— some weeks are well-paced in the mornings, others change it up, and I have to be flexible to go, okay, well then I'm going to come back in the afternoon, or I'm going to figure out space where I can carve that out with him. That's what I mean. It's just a lot of flexibility, but I'm one of 7, so come on, this has got to be in my blood. I'm here. I'm not going to sweat it. We'll just— we'll figure it out as we go.

Well, I want to confirm for you, uh, years ago, um, because I have 5 and I accidentally homeschooled them all. I'm at the last one and I'm trying to figure out, is he going to stay? Um, he's in the 8th grade going into 9th grade. So I'm trying to figure out, is he gonna, like, we gonna do this all the way or what? I think he needs to go to school. I think, yeah, he's the last one. He's the most extroverted one. My life is in a different season. I think he's got to go. But the thing is, is just, I, when I was homeschooling at the beginning, I was in a homeschool co-op and all these women, you know, just sucking. Like, how do you do that? How do you, it wasn't even about school. It was about how do you schedule your day? What do you do if you, it was all these things. And so, um, one woman who had 6 kids told me that there was a year when there was a tornado that, that took their home and she had these 6 kids she was homeschooling. So for a year. More than a year, homeschool looked like whatever books there were at the library, because they didn't have any. They didn't have a home. They didn't have any place. They, they went to the library and she said, for a year, my kids read, or I read to them. And occasionally they would either, if they were little, they would tell me about the book they read, or they would, if they were older, they would write a book report on what they read. And that's all we did for a year and all 6. She said, so we lost a whole year. Of kids at multiple levels. And, um, and she said, of course, now all of my kids are grown. They've all been to college or trade school. They all are successful. They're all married. That one year did not make a difference. Yeah, I remember when my oldest— when I started homeschooling her, she was in the 6th grade. That was a 6-month commitment. And then we just kind of continued on after that. When my children, the second set, when they were in kindergarten, I was more afraid of teaching them to read than I was of teaching algebra. Because I was like, if I screw up the alphabet in teaching them to read, I've screwed them up for their whole life, you know?

Yeah, I feel the same.

So I've, I've been there, and, um, you're— no matter how bad it is, he'll be fine. I can tell you with 100% confidence.

No, but I'm like, sounds for the alphabet, and I'm like second-guessing myself. I'm like, how are you second-guessing the sounds for the alphabet?

You're like, do I know how to read?

How did I know how to read? I need to go watch that video. Yeah.

That's great. That's great. Well, definitely you are, you know, you've got multi, multiple seasons going on with multiple commitments and obviously we don't do everything at the same level every day. Um, but we have to navigate and negotiate. What gets our time, who gets our time, how much time, what we do do, what we don't do, what we don't have to do. And, you know, just as you navigate these seasons, I'd love to ask you about, um, what it has looked like for you to embrace leadership. And what I mean by that is, um, I know having been in ministry for all of my life, that there's a certain level of leadership that I've learned that just comes with the territory. Even, even though my dad would say to us, you know, don't worry about the expectations of the church. You don't worry about the expectations of the church. You worry about our expectations for you, which would be the same whether we were pastoring or not. And that expectation is, yes, that you do lead by example. But we, we would have that if I was not a pastor of this church. My expectations are that you live above live above reproach. My expectations are that you maximize who you are in any space that you're in. And so if leadership is what you're supposed to do in that youth group, then lead. Like, we were always called up to, um, living well, which then put us in— whenever you live well, you're going to find yourself in some level of leadership. But as I've gotten older though, the additional leadership responsibilities that have come with it, I'll be honest, I've had For lack of a better word, it's the same thing I felt when I was working and when I got a promotion. And so all of the people that I had like come on the job with, and then I got a promotion, I was, I was like one of you, but I had different responsibilities or maybe some of them were now reporting to me. And that leveling up of leadership was a little uncomfortable. It was like, we all served together. We all ministered together, but now. I'm leading this ministry. And so I'm curious, how has— you know, the Bible tells us that God takes us from glory to glory. How has the going from glory to glory, or the new levels of leadership, um, responsibility— when you get new responsibilities, you can't do things the same way in this season that you did them in the last season, you know. And so has that been easy for you? Have you been able to just go, this is the new thing and this is what I'm gonna do and I'm not gonna do that? Or I don't have as much time for that because I have to make time for this. How has that transition over the years been for you?

Yeah, it's a great question because I moved here 15 years ago with Rich. We'd been married for 9 months and we served for 8 years with Rich's parents on their staff. And Rich served as the executive pastor, so he oversaw everything. That's just how his mind works, from, from kids to next gen to to worship. I mean, he was in it all. And then I started out, his parents asked me to take a role as the marketing director. And, you know, I didn't really even know what I was going to be doing. I was just, I was here for it. And over the years, my role changed so many times depending on what the need in the house was. And so, you know, I built out the cafe and built out the bookstore and was the buyer for the bookstore. Store, and I hate trinkets. I hate all the stuff that I'm picking out, trinkets, and like, you know, um, creating a team for it. And then, uh, I pastored young adults with Rich, and then I was asked to step in as the worship pastor and let the choir and the worship teams at the locations. And so my roles have always changed. Um, started the women's conference with my mother-in-law, just a precious season together. Um, And what I've learned about it is when you say glory to glory, for me the glory to glory means trust to trust. You're just always in the trust zone with God. And I think the most important thing for me, whether I'm starting a new season or whether I'm stewarding something that I've had for a very long time, is that both of my feet are on the ground and that I'm looking forward at what God has called me to do, not looking around. I, I feel, you know, I teach a class with our college students every week, and I think this, this generation— I'm sorry if I sound really old saying that— but I think especially teenagers and 20-somethings, there's so much to look at and to absorb in culture today that I think for a lot of them they're— instead of being able to put both feet down and really just dig and serve and just work with all your heart and trust God with the outcome, they're just plagued with what-ifs. Well, what if I went and did this? What if I went over there and did that? What if I went a full different direction? And for me, that's never been a position of strength for my heart or for my calling. Like, when we moved to Miami, Rich and I, we made a decision. We were like, we are we're gonna put our heads down for the next 5 years. We're not going to deliberate. We may have other jobs come our way, but they might pay more, they may have a bigger staff, they may be in cooler cities or whatever, but we're gonna put our heads down and work because we feel like God's called us here, and we don't want to take up one minute of brain space deliberating something that we've already decided. And so I think when it comes to fleshing out your calling, it's like be where you are. And it may be small, but man, I just think limitations are the perfect setup for beautiful innovation, for miracles. I think that when you're limited, it's— it's— at least I've seen it in my life, you know, that when you don't have the money, when you don't have the budget, when there's no extra dollar to create this or that, that God gives you ideas to create things that you could have never dreamed up. And he brings resources and the right people. And sometimes, you know, when people have all the resources and they're trying to create and do— man, I just know that the seasons in my life where I've had limitations have been the moments that we've created the most beautiful things partnered with God. Because I think he loves that. I think he loves that full surrender, that trust, that camaraderie. And I remember, like, I went back for the 10-year anniversary for my mother-in-law's conference. She had all of her daughters in, and we were all speaking, and we were reminiscing over how we started it. And we were looking at all the different photos from all the campaigns, and, you know, we were laughing in the back with one of my dear friends who was a pastor on staff too, because we had creative directed everything, you know. These pictures are beautiful., but we're like, I shot that on my camera that I bought in college, and we did that in the pool, or we went to the beach, and, you know, we just pulled all the clothes from our closets and put them together and created a photo shoot. And like, those are the— that's the gold when you're united and you're working together. Not like, oh, I need this much money to do this or that. And I'm just grateful for the opportunity to trust God because he proves time and time again how faithful he is. And at that conference at the 10-year anniversary— and I'm about to wrap this up because we've got other stuff to talk about— but I saw one of the musicians who was in the choir with me. She was 13 when she came to serve with us at Trinity Church, my in-law's church. She's 13, she played the violin. She would come after school, she'd bring her violin, and she was part of the worship team. And when I got to see her, I hadn't seen her in years because she moved away, she said, "Don't worry, I'm worship pastor now." And she said, "I remember when we would go to the Fillmore for conference, Vu Conference every year, that you'd bring all your clothes in a suitcase and you would dress all of us." And she said, "I didn't know at the time that it was because we didn't have a budget. I just thought it was because you were being intentional." And it so spoke to me because the challenges in church, they don't change. You think you're going to grow past it, but here we are with new young students. And new ministries that we're launching. And the temptation is that you grow beyond using what God has already given you.

So good.

But what do you have? Like, what do you have? And it doesn't even have to be conveyed. And that's not to make me the hero. It convicted me because that mentality, I needed to revitalize that mentality in my life. Like, what do I have? Let's use that. Instead of going, "I need this, I need this," what do we have? Because God can use it. So I'm grateful for the trust factor. Wherever you are, God's used me creating the bookstore. He's used me leading the choir. He used me being the marketing director and figuring out how to do ads and going and picking up postcards on South Beach in somebody's borrowed truck and going to the printing agency and figuring out like all the deadlines with the daycare ad. And he's used it all. He taught me and he's still teaching me in all, all the little day-to-day stuff.

That is so good. So very rich. Um, I wrote down for sure, um, don't spend time deliberating something you've already decided. Oh, that right there. So when you find personally that you're in those spaces, um, as you seem like a fairly positive, can-do person. But when you are met at each level with something that you've never done before, that, you know, no one mentored you in necessarily, or you didn't have a 9-month training for, it was like, just get in here and figure it out. Like, you're just going to figure it out. And with hindsight, you can look back and say, knowing what I know now, I can't believe that even worked. What mindset do you bring with you to the, I've never done this before. So we, you know, you talked about trust, you talked about offering God what you have, but what is the mindset when you actually don't know, or when it's discouraging trying to figure it out, um, or you run into something you don't have the budget for? That's where mindset becomes a problem because that's where people will beat themselves down with, I don't know, or I couldn't figure it out. So whether it's natural to you or whether it's learned, What mindset would you encourage people to have as God is bringing them through glory-to-glory scenarios or trust-to-trust, trust-to-new-trust levels?

Yeah, I think that those moments, they come up in every season of life. I was in a meeting yesterday and we deliberated making decisions, you know, and we didn't come to a conclusion. It's something we've been talking about for weeks. It's blessing management. God, how do we do the best with what you've entrusted to us? But sometimes the answer just really isn't clear, and it's frustrating, and you don't see a solution anywhere. And I think that it's key to use the time that you're given. It's so easy to jump into a new role and then 3 months in make a decision that it's not for you, when really, to me, anytime someone's stepping into a new role, they need to get 12 months under their belt before they even fully understand what they've taken on. Because especially in church ministry, it's like this in many other areas, but specifically in church, every month is different. There's different pushes, there's different focuses. There's not one month of the year that looks like the other. So I always encourage new staff, like, give yourself a year before you make any, uh, summary of what you think about this role. Because you really don't understand it until you've walked through the full 12-month cycle. And then the other thing I would say is like schedule times of growth and intense focus. So this has helped me a lot because sometimes we look at our daily calendar and we're like, I'm reading that book, The 5 AM Club, right now, and I want to be a part of the 5 AM club, but I'm not. But like, I can look at that and say, I want to wake up at 5 AM every day. Instead of feeling defeated that I'm not doing that every day, how can I make other gains while I'm growing into the 5 AM girl that I want to be? So what I've learned with writing, what I've learned with conference preparation, what I've learned with ministry expansion is if I can get the crew of people that are all going to shape whatever I'm trying to shape, and go, let's schedule a 2 to 3 day intensive instead of trying to stretch this thing out over 3 to 4 months. I don't know what I'm building, I don't fully understand it. So instead of just going in slow, one foot at a time, let's dive in the deep end and really get our hands dirty and really get a grasp and an outline as far as what we're going for and what the next this year looks like. Then you have a lay of the land. And so if someone's feeling overwhelmed right now, um, I would say maybe, maybe take a day or two and, and block your calendar. It's going to take some extra hours, but it's worth it. I'm not for being burned out and, and not being home for your children. I'm not for, um, not having margin in your life. I have all of those things. I love it. It renews me. Sleep matters. But what I am for is going, what could I do in 2 days that would normally take me 8 weeks? What could I do with 2 really intensely focused days? And so that's what we do. Like, we write songs that way, we work on, um, collections. My husband and I are preaching a, a relationship collection right now. It's not easy for us to work.

Is that the new word for sermon series?

We call it collection. Yeah.

So, but see, y'all are name people, you know, like VCon, Voo Church. Collection. I like that.

Yeah, we call it collection. And so for Rich and I, we're like, we got to get our heads together on this. And so it's a lot easier than trying to get an hour here, an hour there. Like, let's just bust through the wall and get something done this year. So I'd encourage somebody to do that and then also have people, the right people in your ear. Too often we go to the wrong people who give us reasons why we should walk away, why we should make excuses, why we should have a bad attitude or feel entitled or familiar. I need people that hold me to the line that I want to walk and help me keep my heart pure, you know. Instead of bringing dirt, they bring like a sponge, like, let's clean this up, that attitude and that perspective. Let's get a clearer lens to look at your life. I need those people.

So good. Mindset includes using your time and giving yourself time. Give yourself blocks of time for deep work and then make sure you have the right people in your ear. Such, such wisdom. One of the things I think that, you know, leadership at its core involves people. The reason why you can lead it is because there are people or projects that involve people or people that are working on the projects. Yeah, um, one time I sat in my dad's, uh, I was in his office working, in my mom's office. I was sitting in her office actually, and he walked by and I don't know what I was working on. I don't know what it was, something I'm sure for women's ministry, but whatever I was trying to do, I'm a pretty fast mover and, um, and I like being able to give things to people and they can get it done and Whatever it was is the church is probably a lot larger than what I would do personally. And so I'm working through systems and, you know, submit your marketing request form and like those kinds of things.

Yes.

Um, and I also was working through people that, um, you know, church is awesome. Um, sometimes I've found the challenge with church can be we're so grateful for people's ministry and service that we excuse. Maybe their lack of excellence. And so something that could be done in 2 weeks takes 2 months because we're just, we're working through people with good hearts, but not necessarily the skill of hand. And so at this moment of frustration, I'm trying to get it through faster and the systems won't let me. I'm trying to get it through faster. And at that time, maybe the people that were helping me were great, but not fast. And I said, I, he just said, you seem irritated. What's going on? I said, I could get this done. If I didn't have to work with these people. And he said, he said, but you do realize it is all about the people, right? There is no church if there is, if there are no people.

You're like, I don't want to hear that right now.

I don't want to hear that right now. I don't at all. But you know, I never forget that because it is always about the people, but navigating The leadership of people, especially when conversations are hard and have to be had, or when there are, there's friction or tension on a team because we are all uniquely made, but we don't always initially fit together like puzzle, puzzle pieces. Um, there is sin. That's the reality of the world. So leading period, but leading in church, um, because there is an expectation that can come with you. Pastor DawnCherie, Pastor DC, and what, you know, what does shepherding look like when there is an organization to run and there are deadlines to meet and these kinds of things? So I'd love to ask you about what you've learned about, um, leading people, particularly when— excuse me— particularly when the conversations are difficult. Um, when there is correction that needs to happen? Is that part of leadership naturally easy for you? I know you have to do it. Is it naturally easy for you? And if so, what makes it that way? If it's not, what have you learned that's helped you to grow in that area? Because it is about the people. But we are moving towards, you know, a purpose. We do have a finish line. And when there are hiccups, when our gait is messed up or our pace isn't right, or we're limp, you know, there's, there's actual injury. What have you learned about navigating in leadership with people during those seasons?

Well, I feel like this is the journey of following Jesus, of building his church, just walking together and trusting the process. And asking for the Holy Spirit's guidance on a person-by-person basis. I think that when we study the life of Jesus, like, he dealt with people on an individual basis, you know, and he, he showed so much grace, but he spoke so much truth, and he always called them to the life that he had created for them. And for me, stepping into ministry I was not comfortable with difficult conversations. I think that I feel deeply and I definitely know what I want to say, but I think it's very hard to even start that conversation. I have a dear friend who's a mentor in my life and they have like something, it's like a giant Snickers bar. I don't know what it is, but it's like when you have an awkward conversation with someone in the office, you just come in holding it. So they already know, like, hey, you just put it on the desk. It's like, I'm here to have an awkward conversation. And it's like, just kind of breaks through the ice so that you don't have to dance around it. And I love that thought because really what you want to do is you want to have honest conversations that are uplifting but challenging enough so that people are comfortable and familiar with growth, with being called up higher. And if you wait too long, it stifles growth. But it also stifles the individual, and then it makes those conversations so much heavier than they ever should have been. So I've noticed that, you know, they say creativity has an expiration date, and that's true. Like, if there's a song that pops up in my heart, I need to get near a piano or a guitar or a friend who's, uh, you know, a singer or a musician quickly, because I want to flesh this out while it's— while it's here. I don't want to lose the moment or what I'm feeling. I think the same could be said about confrontation. It does have an expiration date. And I, you know, I could tell you too many stories about how I've done it wrong, particularly in my marriage. Like, I would shove things down and then I would wait. And I mean, it would be 2 to 3 months later until I brought it up. And that's just not really fair to the person. You know, it totally sideswipes Rich.

You're my husband.

What are you talking about? You know, like, what are you talking about? I'm like, well, I was just waiting for the words. To like know how I wanted to say it, to not act out of emotion. But I think we got to do it a little bit quicker. You know, the Bible says be slow to speak, but not that slow. Like, you gotta get, you gotta get moving a little bit faster. And so what I've learned is I want to make sure that I'm not angry when I speak. So if that means taking one night to like really allow the peace of God to be mine and then having the conversation the next day Things happen all the time at work. The things that I think when you lead particularly, you know, you feel very passionately about everything because you've just poured your life into it. And you can't blame people for not understanding. They haven't been along the entire journey. I think having kids really given me a deeper grace and, and revealed to me how deeply I need God's grace. But you said something really important, and that's what you when you said like that we have a responsibility. And I think that's where we have to toe the line, is am I willing to speak the truth in love? And that's a good question for all of us to think about today, because what I've learned in pastoring is that, you know, we would be a lot better off as a community if everyone would speak the truth in love to each other instead of waiting for the head person to say the really difficult stuff. We would be a lot better off if the younger— really everybody would just be willing to have those one-on-one conversations in their small group, with their girlfriends, with their guy friends, with their children, with the people that they lead and serve with, the people that they're on staff with. It's so— first of all, I think it comes across so much better when a peer someone says something in love than having to wait for the boss to step in and say what needs to be said.

Yeah.

When you're peer-to-peer with someone and you love them and you go, hey dude, like, you know, we should be doing this, let's, let's work on this, or you're not really using that the way that you should be, you're misrepresenting that. It's just so much easier. It brings health and vitality and accountability beyond just waiting for the one person who, who has to have the— I don't even want to say heavy hand, but who stays true to what they know they've got to protect. So that's what I've learned over time, is that I've got to speak quicker and make sure that I'm asking questions first. You know, it's been said a million times, but don't just come in accusing. Ask why. Give plenty of time to speak. Have grace and allow the Holy Spirit to show you what's needed at that junction. Like, I think that sometimes something has— a line has really been crossed, you know, and I'm going, okay, well, we're gonna try this again. Other times this line has been crossed multiple times, uh, you know, people show you who they are. Believe them when they tell you who they are.

You talked about talking more. And you gave some very specific, like, when we, we should have more truthful conversations that are honest and loving. We should just be more open to having them peer-to-peer. They don't have to wait until things blow up, go to the top. Talking for you is obviously one of the things. As you look over the landscape of time with your growth in leadership, besides talking, Is there something else that comes to mind? I've had to learn too. So for example, one of mine is delegate. I'm not a good delegator.

Yes.

And there's a lot of reasons for that, but I'm not. Another thing that I'm still very much so having to learn, it's what you said. I've got to say the thing. And honestly, I'll say it eventually. I'll just put all these flowers around it. So by the time I actually say what needed to be said, they're not even clear. They don't know what I said. I just, because I didn't want to hurt their feelings. I didn't want to leave them, you know? And so I put all this padding around it. Um, and so I'm, yeah, I'm just curious, is there any other lesson that you're like, okay, after this many years in leadership, I have learned to, or I'm currently learning to?

In leadership, I have learned to believe in how much people can grow because I've seen, first of all, how, how much I've grown. I've needed grace all along the way, but I've been amazed how people who just stay committed, they grow in ways you could have never dreamed. If you speak life over them, it's just like your marriage, you know, it— you're not committing to forever, but while they're here, I love that saying, like You say, what if, what if I teach them and they leave? And it's like, well, what if you don't teach them and they stay? Why don't you take the time?

That's amazing. That's amazing.

Take the time to shape and love and nurture them. The other thing I've learned is Proverbs says, um, a fool gives full vent to their soul. And I have to be really careful that I am not just even spewing to my husband or spewing to my parents or whoever has my ear at that moment. I don't talk to a lot of people, but man, I can work myself up into anger that I really didn't have to, rehashing something. And so some things aren't meant to be vented. Some things are meant to be pondered. Some things are meant to be just put in the hands of the Holy Spirit, and I don't know how this is going to work out. I don't know the answer, but God, I know that me just talking about it constantly is only going to upset me more. And I want to be wise in the way that I handle situations. I want to walk with people through more than just one season, and whether they work on our staff or not, I want them to know that I am for them. I want them to know I am so for them. Even, even just the, the large arc of people coming in and out of church. We, we studied statistically, like, with our kids, like, I think 67% of the kids who come on a Sunday, they only come one time a month. So it— a very large part of our kids outreach, we're only seeing these kids one time a month. Well, this is kind of the normal pattern for America right now, but I would never want the words that come out of my mouth to be things that people have to crawl over to come come back through the doors of church. I would never want to create a barrier with my one lens of what I think it should look like. I want the doors to stay open so that when people do get hungry, when they do have a need in their life, whether they leave badmouthing us, whether they leave with a bad taste in their mouth, still angry about something, I just want to leave the door open because life is long and God's been patient with me and he's changed me, and I believe that he can do the same for them. It doesn't mean that come back and we're best friends, but it just means that let's continue to believe that God can change all of our hearts. And so I guess I would say that— keep your heart soft. I took my son to jiu-jitsu a couple weeks ago and I have a 5-year-old and a 3-year-old boy. Wild is 3 years old, and Wild screams every time we go into jiu-jitsu, and he just goes crazy, and I can't get him to go on the mat. And so I end up holding him the whole time. Well, this big— this— the, the oldest coach, which they're so regimented, I'm like, why can't I get this kind of like response in my home? I'm their mom, like, this is amazing. So I'm so inspired by these coaches. But the oldest coach, he always comes in and he grabs my son Wild, who's 3, and Wild will be screaming, and he'll grab him and he'll go to the corner of the mats, and he will just— before he can say anything, he'll just start tossing them around and rolling with them and doing cartwheels. And he'll literally be crying, but I'm letting him do it because I know he's going to win him over. What blows my mind is he works— he will often play with him one-on-one while the other 30 kids are with the other coaches. He'll often play with him for 20, 25 minutes until he gets wild to a place where he's not thinking about anything and he's so engaged. And he'll tap him on the butt and say, "Go get in line!" And he'll just, you know, he's like a little elf, he'll just dance right over to the line and he doesn't even realize what's just transpired. And it's because this coach is so patient with him and took the time to love him and to encourage him to the point where he was willing to participate. And it really convicted me because I think sometimes when you're leading an organization, when you're leading people, you can kind of be like, hey, get in line, or like, leave. Hey, come on, the way this works, like, we don't have time. And I really want to be that person who's like, no, come on, if he did it for my son, I want to do that for other people. Hey, come on, let's work. I believe you got it in you. You just need a little more time. I don't know your story. I don't know what's transpired in your life or what your upbringing was like or the pain you've walked through. Like, I want to be patient with you, and I'm believing as we work together and as I love on you and celebrate you, that there can be a moment where you joyfully step in to what God's prepared for you. So I see— I'm learning a lot as I raise my kids. The heart of God.

Yeah, that's so good. When, when you've, you've kind of touched on it a few times, but in, in different ways, um, you know, when you have a conversation with someone about one thing, but then if that one thing is not just one thing, it's multiple things, you know, and then that tells you something different. Or even talked about church and just the arc of church, people coming and going and there is, you know, whether you're talking about church, you're talking about business, you're talking about, um, volunteer service, there's this arc of people coming in and out of something. And you and I both know that long haulers are, you know, they're precious and not easy to find. And sometimes your long haulers are not even the ones that they thought they'd be. You know, they surprise you. We— I didn't think that this would be the person who's still going with us, you know. 5 years, 8 years, 10 years in. And the one I thought was going to be here for a long time, you know, left quicker for whatever reasons. One of the hardest parts of leadership, leading beyond those hard conversations, is when you realize that having somebody in the right place, whether it's the right place on the team, the right place at that level of service, the right place in that job, or maybe if this church is even a good fit for them, is coming to that realization. And so, um, apart from multiple conversations, kind of what are the things that you've seen, maybe that the Holy Spirit has revealed to you, when it's just not a right fit or it's just not working? Um, if they know it and tell you, or if you know it and tell them, then there's that. But a lot of times there's not a telling, there's a gradual knowing, you know, that—

yes.

And because you want to be for them, you realize that you're not for them if you keep trying to force the square peg into the round hole. And so I know that that answer could be very individualistic depending on the situation, but is there any overarching, you know, to someone else who's going— even if I'm not the leader, if I'm the person like trying to make this work, like I love this church, I love this ministry, I I love serving with this pastor, but I want to do this thing, and it's not— that's not my thing. That's not, you know, how do we come to the realization that, you know, this is not it, this is not working? What does that look like for you?

Well, the first thing is, is that we have mentors in our life who gave us wisdom when we started the church to pray for the right people, but also pray for the people who aren't the right fit. I don't want to say the wrong people Somebody said belong. They belong somewhere where they can grow and build and do what God's called them to be. But if someone's not the right fit for this community, that we also pray that God makes that clear as well. So it's, it's both, and that we should be praying and covering. And when I, when I sense that like someone isn't as engaged, or someone may be doing something that— or feeling a certain way I think what I've learned is just having that conversation, like you said, immediately and feeling it out and trying to hear their heart and discern where they're at. We don't get it right all the time. And the only way, like, the only way you can see if something works is if you try it. So we say things like that we want to experiment in church and that we're not tied to one thing for the next 50 years, but it's uncomfortable when you actually are experimenting and trying things out. So someone who has been like the best leader, volunteer, servant leader ever, and now they're coming on staff. Well, they might come on staff and within a couple weeks it's apparent that like it just isn't the right fit for them. Well, instead of dragging it out, if they already know in their heart that, hey, this— I, I loved what I was doing before and I thought this was a good fit, but I'm not feeling it now, well, why try to talk them into it? That never goes well. Like, you can't talk somebody into their calling. You can't— like, I don't want to be the one that called you. Like, either God called you, or, you know, you need to figure out where you're supposed to be. And so I think having those honest conversations up front has helped us a lot. Sometimes it's a weekend, sometimes it's a month in, and it's like just, just letting them know we're for them, you know. Let's, let's figure out a solution. We know God can help us find a solution. But not trying to force it. If someone's just having trouble acclimating, but they know they're supposed to be there, then I need to give them the tools. But I think that there's one conversation Rich and I always have on onboarding with our staff, and that's that, hey, please don't say that you're gonna be here forever, 'cause that's not what we're asking of you. So we don't ask that of anyone here on our team. That's not the language of our culture. But what we would ask for you to do is that while you're here, that you're fully here. If there ever comes a point while you're on staff here at this church, um, that your heart is more committed somewhere else or to something else, that you would respect and honor what God's building enough to come and tell us, because we want to help you with that next step. But while we're here, our hearts are all in. And so that's what we ask of you from the first day, like, please be honest with us if there's something else your your side thing is now your main thing, if your heart is thinking about that all day, if you've got some other things, let's, let's not do this anymore because we know why we're here and we know what we're united to do. And so I think just being very clear with that language, um, if you need to circle back to it, you've already said it.

That is like a whole script. Like, I should transcribe this interview and just take that one part and put it in my documents of things that I say, because that is amazing. Like, I'm serious. I mean, just because I think that's what we want, right? Whether we're leading in church or leading in business, or like even relationally, it's like, if we go down this road and we're dating and you realize that your heart's not here anymore, respect me enough, care for me enough to tell me, like, don't drag this out. It's just going to be more painful. But fully hear and engage. And what you said about noticing engagement decreasing, I wrote, I wrote an arrow going down and engagement, because that's just a concise way of saying it. Because you know when somebody just doesn't seem like they used to, you know, it's like Revelation, you've left your first love. I can sense that something isn't quite right. Um, but that's just a great word to put on it. And to say that up front in onboarding is amazing. That is like gold. So thank you for sharing that. Um, at church, we do have church hurt. This is my last question for you. And we all, if we've been in church for our lives, somebody has hurt us and we thought they loved Jesus and we thought they loved us and they may have, but they still hurt our feelings. But I think leadership is at a whole nother level because Like you said, it's, it's, it's something when, when you're building it and while church does not belong to us, we do know that some of us are called to hold that ministry in our hearts for the long haul. And so like an entrepreneurial spirit would, you eat it, you breathe it, you sleep it. It's culture, it's friends, it's family. And so when people do leave, whether they leave because it wasn't a good fit it for the church or they leave the staff or they leave as a volunteer. When there are hard conversations with, um, you know, unexpected, like I didn't even think I'd have to have this conversation with this person, or, you know, I realized that I thought they were for us really and they weren't. I mean, in leadership it's a different, it's, it's hurt, but it's a different kind of hurt. What have you learned or what tools have you picked up that have helped you personally? In your position of leadership, um, as a pastor, co-pastoring with your husband, in leading in all these different things, all these different things you've done, the bookstore and the marketing and the women's conference. Like, you've had so many touch points over the years to keep your heart soft and for the people, but keep your heart healthy when there's been hurt.

Yes, I don't have it down perfect, but I am I'm a PK, so while I don't have it perfect, I've experienced it. Uh, I went through a lot of church hurt, if that— and I don't even want to say church hurt. I, I went through a lot of pain as a kid with things that people said and did to my parents, like really tough stuff. Yeah, that, um, I saw up close. You know, sometimes we think that kids don't catch things. Kids catch everything. They're so much smarter than we are. And my parents kind of modeled for me, when you're going through the fire, you know, that you really guard your lips. My parents weren't at home bashing people. They weren't at home in a silo, no longer being with people from the church. They really fought to keep their heart connected to the people that we're in the church, you know. So often we can— I'll speak for myself— people leave and all of a sudden you can make and be making decisions based off of the people that left instead of the people that are still here. And that's a clear sign of that we need to let the Holy Spirit do some work in our hearts. And so I think that my, my dad would talk to me, and we went through some really tough stuff, and he'd say, don't you— when anger comes over you can come up every morning, but every morning you have the opportunity to give that to God. And I've preached that so many times through the years because sometimes when you're hurt and you hear people preach, you think that you're just supposed to have one time at the altar and then you're perfect moving forward. But sometimes healing is progressive, and it's every single day leaning into that mercy and giving it to him again and again and again. So I'd say if you're still hurt, you got to keep giving it to him. You know, cast your cares. It's like my dad's a football coach. You throw that ball and you just get rid of it and just keep passing it to him. And I've done that again and again, and it's always the best choice. I never feel better after rehashing it with Rich or rehashing it with, you know, my sister. Like, I'm grateful they're there, and sometimes we need that for a moment. But after you do it, you don't need to do it again and again and again. Don't keep tabs on people. Put your head down and care about the things that God's entrusted to you and keep your heart open. I don't want to create a silo. Are boundaries healthy? Yes, they are. But there's new people coming through the doors of your church every single day who you're gonna fall in love with and partner with and who you're gonna do life together and your kids are gonna be the same age and there's people that have stayed the course. Next, celebrate them, lean into them. Like, we're not promised how long people are going to be with us on the journey, but while they're here, I want to continue to get to know people and to do life with them. So I would just say, like, be careful of what you're speaking. We eat the fruit of our lips. We eat the fruit of our lips. So what is your diet like? You know, what is your diet like today. And then just let that— let the Holy Spirit just cleanse your heart. I, I don't know why Jesus tells us to pray for our enemies. I mean, I know that he— we've all been his— we've all been separated from him at some point, but I think it's so much deeper than that. I think there's something supernatural that transpires in us as we actually pray for the people that hurt us. I think it brings healing to us. It has to. Like, God is so detailed in the way he's created our physical and spiritual makeup. So I just encourage you to do what the scripture says. Keep your heart pure. Pray for the people that hurt you. Um, don't be spiteful. And keep, keep building the church. I'm grateful that Jesus is still building his church. I'm so grateful. So if he's, if he's doing it, that's where I want to be.

Thank you so much for letting me dig into this random area that you didn't tell me you wanted to talk about.

Anytime.