Dr. Jackie Greene on Living Fully Free

Y'all, every morning of the week— maybe not every, but I'd say 80% of the mornings of my life— I turn on my Bose soundbar in my living room. I have a little app for it on my phone, and I look down the list of music artists that I want to play. And I would say 80% of the mornings I hit my Travis Greene radio station. So I know a lot about Travis Greene, and I've heard him talk about his testimony when he does his music, and heard him talk about his own story, um, his children. But today I have a special treat because I get to know, uh, the beauty and I'm sure some of the power behind the ministry that Travis Greene has. Apart from the ministry of her husband, Dr. Jackie Greene is a woman of power in her own right. She of course is co-pastoring at Forward City Church with her husband Travis Greene. She's a Bible teacher, she's a women's ministry leader, she used to be a dentist. You'll learn more about that. But I also want you to know that she has learned what it is to be comfortable in her own skin and is excited about sharing that message with others as well. Welcome, Dr. Jackie, to the show.

Thank you so much for having me. It means everything.

Well, listen, I want to know, what do people call you? Is it a Dr. Jackie? Is it a Pastor Jackie? Is it a pastor? What are we doing?

When I tell you, they do everything in between. They do Pastor, Doctor, they do PJ. They call me Jackie. They call me Dr. Jackie. So literally, whatever comes comfortable to you, I'm fine with. Jackie is fine with me, totally. So I'm good.

Okay, was a book on your list? That's what I want to know. Was a book on your list of things you wanted to do in your life?

I'm not that girl. I'm not the girl that like writes out like, oh, I gotta— I am very much the girl that's like, I want to be in the face of the Lord in a way that I'm always pursuing him and asking him like, God, what do you want for this season? And if a book is what you want, that's what you get. And he said like out of the blue, it was not something that I was aspiring toward, You need to finally tell this story. There are a lot of other women that are dealing with the thing that you've dealt with, and you have a responsibility. With the same comfort, with the same level of freedom that I have given you, you need to go back and give that freedom. And so that's really, I think, the heart passion behind how Permission to Live Free came to be. I felt like I had to tell the story that helped liberate me so that other women wouldn't have to live through the same level of bondage and paralysis that I did.

And you said, you know, dealing with bondage, dealing with paralysis, dealing with the struggle. What was the struggle?

Uh, I was not comfortable with who— I was not comfortable with who God made me to be and how God made me to be. I think that I was always aware that there was something special about me. I was always aware, um, that I had a difference. But for instance, I felt like I always had a gift of love, and I love deeply. From a little girl, I was a girl that would ride in a grocery cart with my mom, and I'm looking at the lady in line behind us like, hi, you're so pretty, I love you. It was just always natural. And I would be in a car with people beside us and at a traffic light, and I'm like, Mommy, they seem like they're sad. I always have felt deeply. But as I grew older, I always felt like— I mean, loving people is not really a gift. Like, I thought it wasn't good enough. So it was so many things that I recognized about myself. But all of it, I always felt like this isn't enough or this is just weird. And I would push it away. And it was a journey of me coming to know that through the abandonment of my father leaving and going back to Ghana, West Africa to serve his homeland, that that abandonment and that rejection did not have to be the label that I wore for the rest of my life, that I could step over that hurdle to get to know that there was an Abba that still loved me, that would also heal me enough to love my real father through where he was. And so I think that was a part of it. It was just identity issues at large, a lot to do with some of the trauma I dealt with as a child, but also with me just wanting to— fighting really hard against the God creation, the beautiful masterpiece that God made in Jackie Green.

So give me an example of a time when you realized, or is there a time, is there, you know, as one of our friends would say, an aha moment where you were like, this is ridiculous? Because I think that's the, for me, and I've had multiple points like that where I'm thinking, this is ridiculous, my behavior or my out of control emotions or my response.— or what someone is saying, or my unwillingness to move forward in something because I'm doubting myself. And I'm like, this is stupid, you know? Like, I mean, not that the pain isn't real, and not that the experiences or the trauma didn't happen, but that it's getting in the way of me doing what I'm supposed to do in this world. Do you have an experience like that, or a time when you remember feeling that way? Like, girl, you're going to get through or over this.

Yeah, I feel like, if I'm honest, it was a lot of moments.

Yeah.

It was a lot of moments. I would say if I had to just, like, culminate it into one big moment, I can recall a time my hair had played a really big role. So, like, literally, funny story, this is the first time I've had on a wig in maybe 7, 8 years. Literally, today was the first time I've ever put on a wig.

That's a good wig. I just want to say this. Now, some people are going to watch us and some people are going to listen to us. And if I can just pause your story right here, right quick, to tell you, you, you making me want to go back. I went to the store one time, and I know, I know that there are a lot of places to get wigs from, but I went one time and my hair wasn't wig ready. You know, you gotta— it has to be laid down, it has to fit under the cap. And it was, you know, it had something lumpy going on. So I'm putting on the wig and I'm sitting and looking at myself in the mirror. And you know, somebody was like, is that Chrystal Hurst? You go to Dr. Everett's church? And I'm like, oh Lord, now I'm in here looking like I got a mop on the top of my head. But I just sometimes don't want to fool with hair, and I just need to put it on. And some wigs don't look right, and some wigs can look right. Yours looks right. That's all I want to say. It looks— yours looks great. But anyway, go ahead. It's the first wig in a long time, and you were talking about getting comfortable in your own skin.

So for when I was 2 or 4, one of them, I mean, very, very young, my dad is Ghanaian. He's from West Africa. And so, you know, before curls were cute, before we were like doing the natural hair journey, my mom was trying to tame my curls, had put 2 chemicals in my hair. She put a texturizer and a relaxer in, and my hair fell out subsequently. And so although— and me and my mom have to walk through this story because the trauma of it happening when I was so young, I carried for all of my life. Even when my hair grew back, I still always felt like— I can remember being the girl that would have to be in the back room at the hairdresser because they're trying to cover up the bald spot and nobody knows. And it was just like a lot of history of like, something's wrong with you. It wasn't just that my hair was broken, it actually ended up translating into I'm broken or something is wrong with Jackie the person. And that followed me throughout my life. And Wanted this leaked into this moment where I'm at my house and I can recall like going to the hairdresser and trying to do something finally with my real hair for the first time. I got to the place where I'm not going to drive 5 hours and have to have the weave laid to feel as if I'm good enough. I'm going to take the weave out. I'm trying to do something with my hair and I'm literally running up my stairs in the house with people that I love, my husband, people that are family, friends, because I don't want anybody to see me without my security blanket of weave.

Mm-hmm.

Place where I'm standing in the mirror and God said, do you like it? And I can't just— or like, I had never even asked myself, Chrystal Hurst, does Jackie like this? Because I was so used to making sure that the whole world liked how I look. Okay, if they think it's beautiful, then I think it's beautiful. I wasn't even aware anymore of what I like. And it translated to more than just do I like my hair. It was like, do I like the way I speak? Do I like the way I dress? All of kind of fell into this trauma bond with it all breaking, with my hair being messed up. And I had to get to the place after God asked me that question, like, I gotta get back to the God intention, like, God original Jackie. What made me beautiful? What does he say about me? What does he love about me? And going on a journey to finally say, I'm gonna stop allowing everyone else to give me permission to be who I am, to wear my hair the way I want it, and finally say, like, are you gonna finally say I have permission to be who God created me to be and love her. That was a really hard journey. And although I can say it now without tears, that was 26, 27 years of a struggle of always questioning, like, if I said it right, or do they think it's good enough? Uh, it was a hard journey, really hard journey.

Do you mind if I ask what decade of life that you're in? Are you in your 30s?

And I always forget how old I am. I'm 35. I turned 36 in December. So all the way up until about 26, 27, I was still fighting that journey hard.

Well, I was looking down at your Instagram, and I— this is what I will say. I will say you do whatever the heck you want to with your hair. That's what I would say. Like, every third picture, it's different. Every third picture, you got something else going on. In this journey of being comfortable in your own skin, one of the things I find is that people, women specifically, but people feel like once you decide what you like, that's it, like, and that you should commit. And I think what's beautiful about your journey is you're saying, what I like is change.

Yes.

I like having it this way one day, and just because I feel like it, I like having it this way another day. And they are totally different, you know, totally different looks. Um, did you have— did you know that, that you— there was no one thing necessarily that you liked, or did you have to find your way to that as well?

I think a part of that was I have a real strong stance about what freedom means. And for me, freedom means that I don't have to have one thing. That's, to me, is what freedom is. So for a long time, I was like, okay, I had to go on a journey where I was like abstinent from weed because I had to get over that I had to have it in order to look beautiful. So for a long period, I would not put weave in my hair. And then I got to the place Like, okay, I've not done weave, but if I get to the point where I have to not have weave, then I can also be in bundles then. I want to be at the place where neither is bad. I don't want to be bound to like, I gotta be natural, or I gotta be the girl that love weave. I want to be free enough to do whatever I want to do, and I don't want to be bound to either version. So for me, I think the big thing is not even the look, it's freedom. I just want freedom. And if I want to do a wig, if I want to do it cut off on the side, I want to be free to do that.

So how has the freedom journey been impacted by your husband? I know that a lot of women struggle with what they want to do because they're also trying to please their husband. If my husband doesn't like it, then am I actually free to be me? And we're not talking just about hair. It's like, I've had friends that say, I actually want to go on this trip, or let's just bring it even down a thousand, I want to go see that movie., he don't want to go see that movie, you know. Am I free enough to go see that movie by myself or with my friends? Um, you know, he likes me in these clothes, and we're supposed to honor our husband, but where is the freedom, you know, inside of what he likes for me to do the things that I like? And women really struggling with that, particularly, I think, in the first 5 to 10 years of marriage, working out what submission looks like and what glorifying your husband looks like, you know, being his glory, being a— like all of those things. Because what you find is that if a woman doesn't figure that out, she will— well, let me just say, every woman I know at some point figures that out. The question is when. It's when. How long will she be married before she goes, "I know you like this, but I gotta," like, you know, or, "Can we negotiate this?" And you find that a lot of women, it'll be— they've been married 30 or 40 years, and then they just start breaking ties. You're like, "Wait, wait, wait, what happened?" I'll never forget someone that we both know. I'm music artist as well. We were in it, we went to dinner with them, and I just noticed a shift in his wife, just some things that she was saying or whatever. I said, girl, you kind of spicy. You've always been like super, super calm, super quiet, super whatever. And he said, oh yeah, something happened when she turned 40. And he said, he said, I'm not mad at it. She just decided, I, I owe it to myself and to you to, to be who God created me to be, to speak up for myself, to say what I like and don't like, and to still be here to be supportive, but to be me as I do it. And I think a lot of women struggle to do that. So what has this journey looked like for you as you learn what it— what is needed for you to be free and for that freedom to overflow, uh, into your relationship for you with your husband, and for him to learn what it— what he needed, what you needed from him, or where you needed him to give you release to walk in freedom for yourself?

I love this question because what you're saying is so real to the heart of so many women. One thing that I'll say, Chrystal Hurst, that I would have to be honest about, and I would say this to any single woman watching, please do yourself the favor of waiting on the Lord and who you marry, because God is omni-everything, right? Like, he's omniscient. He knows all things before we do. Um, and I really believe that the Lord knew the journey that I would go on in terms of me owning my own, uh, authenticity, individuality. And my husband was so well suited for it. I'll say, in the journey where I was trying to detach from wanting to be Beyoncé and have the long weave— hey, he actually, he actually loved my naturalness. And he was the one that's like, girl, you don't have to wear heels if you don't like heels. You can take that weave off. And I actually like your natural hair. Yes, it's fine, but I love it.

It's you.

And And so he was a huge champion and a huge, I would say, even catalyst for me going toward me finding out who I was outside of having to add to make or to feel beautiful. And so I would say that part. But I will also say he was really, really loud about how he didn't like wigs. And this is actually the first time I wore one since I let it go a long time ago. And I just did it. And he was here when I started it. And I was like, baby, do you like it? I don't even know if he knows it's a wig. I actually think it's a mental thing that he tells himself that he doesn't like. Saw, he's like, oh, that's pretty. So I didn't go to him asking for permission to do it. At the same time, if he was just like, I hate it, I would probably try to tweak it, at least get to the point where he liked it. But I was at least willing to try it. That's kind of where I stand in terms of the balance of submission and wanting to honor him. I would love that he love it, but I'ma at least try it if I want to.

How long have y'all been married?

We'll be 12 in December.

And when did your freedom journey start not the— when you started waking up to the, the day you look in the mirror, do I like me? And you started doing the work to move towards, uh, a higher level of Jackie freedom. How long ago, how many years ago was that?

That was in 2017. And so we had been married about 6 years at that time.

Okay, so halfway through the marriage. How has your freedom impacted your marriage?

Ooh. I really feel like Travis is a champion for freedom just naturally. He's all— I mean, like, with his music, like, one of them hallmarks is freedom. What I have seen, though, is the more authentic— I'm a heart girl. Like, I am one that's going to be natural. I lay it all out there. I'm vulnerable. I'm not one that's going to hold it back. Although he's a little more church than me. Like, he was the drug baby, like, drug to church every Sunday.

Yeah, yeah.

And although I definitely had a church upbringing, I wasn't, like, in there 7 times a week like he was. So— I think that my authenticity kind of, um, brushed off some of the Christian needs and the— yeah, uh, it gotta be perfect and everything done right. Uh, I think I brought out another real side to him where he was able to even— I see in his ministry, his preaching, where he'll like uncover himself more, like, I had a bad day. He wasn't that person very often, um, before I feel like my freedom journey began.

Yeah, if freedom is, um it transfers. It does. You can't be in the presence of somebody who's free and either not want it for yourself or not see what it looks like. You know, it's just like, if you can taste it, then you want to repeat it. It's like you Dorito, you can't just eat one chip. Once I've had some, I want more of that. You know, I want more of that. Um, you talk about permission, um, but permission to— one of the things is to shake off fear. Um, how— what does fear look like in your life? What, what were you— what, what were you afraid of, or who were you afraid of? What was fear based in?

That's a loaded question and a real potent one for my actual journey, Chrystal. Um, I feel like— and I will tell women this often when I'm mentoring them— like, that girl that you see in your dreams, like, sometimes you'll dream something or you'll have a vision and you'll see her and you're like, oh, that's too much. Like, don't be afraid of her. Because that was my story. I think that I would see a free version of myself where it wasn't just at the prayer retreat when I've had like a lot of Jesus, where I'm leaning in, um, where I, I would get glimpses of her. It was like, you are that girl, and stop, you know, telling yourself that this is like an alter ego or this is someone, you know, like they do that whole, um, I forgot, like, what's the word? Oh yeah, imposter syndrome. Like, I would do that whole idea like No, this is not who I really am. And I think the more and more I got used to, like, you don't have to be afraid to actually authentically speak the way you speak, be from where you are, dress the way you dress, talk the way you talk, love the way you love, and allow your gifting to be enough. I think I used to feel like, well, if I could prophesy a little more clear, like a little sharper, a little more precise like Travis, or if I could, I could sing like him, then I would be better or I would be more well suited. When God was saying that I put together your unique characteristics on purpose for your particular call. And you being able to own that would allow you to go forward in freedom, I believe. Because for so long I felt like if I could just have a little bit of that, if I could communicate a little bit better, it would make me shy away from showing authentically who I was and I would hesitate. And a prophet prophesied over me, and I feel like it's the best thing to articulate the fullness of my journey, that I suffer from the paralysis of analysis. I was naturally trained in professiondom, so it was cross every T, dot every I. And if you can't do it perfect, you don't do it., and I was afraid to fail. And so there was a lot of fear there in trying anything. And so if I didn't know for sure I could do it well, I wasn't going to do it. So that was probably, I guess, like a synopsis of my journey. Like, I can give you a real practical example. My husband asked our very first service at our church, it was like a Monday night worship and word, only like 40 people there. He was like very cavalier in his approach. He's like, oh yeah, you're gonna do the welcome tonight. I literally like, Chrystal, I'm not I'm not exaggerating. This is not hyperbole. I literally went to the back, found my mother, and I wept crying because I was like, I don't know if I'm ready for this. Travis does the spontaneous speaking. Like, I haven't prepared to do the welcome. She's like, Jackie, you talk to people all the time. You love people. Just go out there and say whatever's on your heart. And I just— I felt like because Travis was so well suited for ministry that there was something I was missing. And I think for so long I kept telling myself, there's something you don't have. And I just had to get over it. And so I was so afraid to not— I felt so much of a novice in ministry, so to speak, outside of the context of one-on-one in a corporate setting that I was really afraid to go forward and naturally being who I am.

Hey there, listen, God put you together just the way you are because he had an intended purpose for you. The faster, the sooner that you're able to agree with God about the gifts that he's put in you, and agree with God enough to partner with him in developing your gifts, the faster you get to your purpose, the faster you get to your calling, the faster you're able to bless people in this world with the gift of you. Now, I know that sometimes your gifting, your calling, your design, it's got to be called out of you. Like, somebody's got to look at you and say, listen, I see this in you. You've got to be challenged to agree with God about what he put in you. And I know that for me, the best way for that to happen is because people outside of me, my parents, my aunts and uncles, my teachers, my friends, they say, "Chrystal, girl, you're good at this. Listen, girl, you got to do more of this. You have to do more of this. Put more of this in the world." But I know how hard it is when you don't have that too, because I've had those seasons where people aren't around you to call out that gifting, how difficult it is to think that God can do anything with your life or do what— with your life, what you want to see happen in your life. And community is a key. This is why I created the Inner Circle, because I realized that sometimes you just need somebody else, somebody outside of your family, somebody outside of your, your church, somebody outside of your in-real-life group of friends to call you up to help you recognize who you are, what you're supposed to be and do in this world, and to agree with God about the good gifts he's put in you. He says in Philippians 1:6 that he's going to finish the work that he started in you. But you know what? We weren't supposed to walk this race alone. So if in your real life you don't have what you need, or even if you do and you want more, I want you to consider joining the Inner Circle. Why? Because there are an amazing group of women in there who are passionate about being intentional and living the life that God has for them. And also because I'm in there. And I am passionate about creating content that will support you on that journey. So if you want to find out more about the Inner Circle, simply go to thesisterscircle.com/innercircle. I'd love to have you draw a little closer, have greater access, and an amazing connective experience with women who love God and who believe that they are called according to his purposes. So listen, If you are feeling something stir up in your heart today, because Dr. Jackie is talking to us, well, maybe that's supposed to point you my way. I'm glad you're here. And I'd love to see you in there as well. Let's get back to it. One of the things I think is unique, I mean, everybody wants to be free. We all can sense it. We can smell it when we're around other people that are free in their own skin. Some of the ways that you sense it is your own sense of insecurity because you realize like one of these things don't look like the other, right? But the other thing I think that is specific and peculiar to women of color is that particularly professional women of color is that there has been a story told that in order for us to be professional, we have to lay down some of what actually brings us color. And I don't just mean the melanin in our skin, right? It is the way we talk. It is the vernacular. It is. And so whether it's north, south, east, west, whether it's your two country or your two, you know, whatever the word would be if somebody is from Michigan or Wisconsin, you know, or Missouri. Like, everybody has a little twang or of some kind, a little specificity to how they talk. Um, clear talking, what is that anyway? Everybody has a little something in there, and I don't even realize it until, um, I realize that I tend to mirror. Uh, we would go to Baltimore. My dad's family is from Baltimore. And so if I would go up there and say, "Hey, throw me the ball," my cousin would turn around and say, "Ball? What's a ball?" I'm like, "What are you talking about? It's a ball. You have to say ball." You know, or, you know, of course, no matter where I go, I'm from Texas, so everything is y'all, you know, everything is y'all. I just, it is what it is. But I do know that as a Black woman, I know how to tighten it up. I know how to get my professional tone in, tone down on some of the, the Southern Texan. I know how to clean it up. I know how to do that. And I, I think, you know, there are different schools of thought with, you know, are you being professional, are you laying yourself on the table? Without getting into that, I just want to know, um, for you as a professional woman, as a woman of color, as a woman that's from South Carolina with a very distinct accent. Um, from a professional aspect, like, was any of this, um, something you wrestled with in terms of your professional life? Like, before you started looking at what this looked like in your pastoral role, did you have this even in college? You know, when you're going to school to get your doctorate for, you know, your dentistry, for doing all that, um, did you feel any need to rein yourself in in that world?

It's funny that you bring that up, and I never thought about this, Chrystal Hurst. I don't really feel like a lot of my insecurities surfaced until ministry, like until this form of ministry, I should say.

That's where I'm going, that's where I'm going.

And that's interesting. Before I actually came into like, I'm married to a pastor and we're going this route with our life, I was actually just me. I didn't never think about it. I never felt like there was a certain way I had to do it. I No.

So what was it then about ministry that made you start feeling that way?

I, I think a part of it had to do with, um, I felt like God didn't give me a runway in terms of, um, when I came into ministry, I came in with eyes on me. Like, I mean, all of Travis's celebrity friends were already watching. I remember my first time ever speaking, uh, Donnie McClurkin literally wrote us and was just like, this woman blessed me. And I'm just Whoa, that's a lot, God. Like, you could have prepared me more. And so I think it might have had to do with the level of notoriety I walked into just at the stardom of us just stepping out there. It made me feel very uncomfortable and like I had to get it together. And I was positioned beside someone who had been speaking in, I think, so to speak, like striking at who he was as a minister in prison ministry since he was 18. He was 30 at the time. So I felt like he had it all together in terms of like what is expected in the ministry standpoint.. And I didn't, I didn't, I didn't come from the, you know, I don't know. I just didn't have the same level of background with how it's supposed to be in church. And I think maybe a lot of that brought to, brought about a lot of my insecurity. I never thought about this sister right now.

Well, it sounds like you didn't feel you were equipped. Like, yeah, in order to be a dentist, there was a path. I'm going to go to school. I'm going to pass these tests. I'm going to get these certifications. I know these are the things that I have to do. This, this is how I become that, and I'm willing to do the work and willing to show up and check the boxes. But the minute you show up and don't feel qualified or equipped, with no opportunity to prepare, then how do I know how to do this well? How do I know how to do this right?

And I think that was all— I think it was his plan all along, because it forced dependency. To your point, Crystal, like, that's great. I met Travis, I got to the place— like I say all the time, I feel like dental school was my actual spiritual training grounds because that was kind of like the intersection of us starting that journey of ministry. And the Lord was like, no more you having all these checkboxes and you have it together in your own strength. You're gonna be forced to rely on me. And I actually really believe it was his gift to me because I don't believe that I would have come to know him the way I know him without it. So the thing that I hated was the thing that actually brought me the best gift, in that I came to rely on God in a way I never would have without not being able to be prepared.

How do you know you're free? I— people ask me that all the time. They'll say, well, how do I know if I'm free or not? You know, um, and I, I have an answer, but that's, you know, it's not a, an easy thing to quantify. You know, it's not easily quantifiable. It's— it is a knowing. But I would like to know, if someone tells you that I want to be free, I'm not sure if I'm free, how do I know if I'm free? What would you tell them? Or how do you know that you're free?

I feel like when I think of freedom, I think of when I'm at a place where I don't have anything to hide. I don't have, uh, out in my mind— like, when I'm on here with Chrystal Hurst, I'm not thinking like, I wonder what she thinks of me, or I wonder if it's good enough. Like, I'm not hiding anything. Like, I feel like if I could describe it, it is like naked and unashamed. I am open, I'm vulnerable. I'm back at the original intent of fully relying on the Lord, trusting him in his perfect creation of who I am. I'm wide open, I'm trusting, I'm liberated to show all of me. I don't have anything in reserve, and I'm not afraid. I think that's freedom.

So now, freedom, we know, you and I know, but I want to clarify, does not mean that just because you have nothing to hide or that you can be naked and unashamed, that everything is visible, everything is public, and everybody knows all your business.

That's so good.

So, one of the biggest questions that people ask, whether they're writing a book or whether they're speaking or whether they're sharing in a small group, is, "How do I know what to talk about?" And the assumption sometimes is, "If I'm free, I can talk about it." And so, that's where people bleed all over the stage, right? So, if they're an artist— and they start telling you all their business. If they're a speaker and you— and you know it as a listener because you're sitting in the audience as they talk and you're like, oh, we don't need to know all of that. Like, we don't need to know all of that. So if I'm free and I know I have nothing to hide and I know I'm naked and unashamed, where am I not hiding? Where am I unashamed if everything is not for everybody? So like, where are you able to be naked and ashamed and get that feeling if everything that you feel free about isn't supposed to be spoken from on a platform?

Yeah, how do you know that?

How do you know that?

I think that that, that level of freedom that we're describing, I think in absolute is totally reserved for you and the Lord first. Yeah, that is a personal relationship, a very vertical relationship with the Lord, um, and it is birthed out of prayer to me. Like, it's birthed in a devotion-centered prayer closet where he lets you take off shame and take off insecurities. But what he does is he equips you to have enough, uh, wherewithal where he's healed and he's worked on in your own private time enough stability to understand you can live a spirit-led life where I know that Holy Spirit in moments will say, you need to share this with Chrystal Hurst, and I've already worked out the kinks where I'm not afraid to share.

There you go.

Holding me. But it is a spirit-led life that lets you know that God is asking for this, not that I'm forcing this because I gotta prove that I'm free. That's also a level of not being free when you feel like you gotta prove that you're free. So yeah, yeah, I think the answer is a life of being spirit-led.

So what does it look like for the Lord to lead you? Like, obviously you've written a whole book, right? So there's a lot of this message that's in the book where you're talking about your story, you're talking about what God has taught you, talking about your hair, you're talking all these different things, the tennis shoes with the, you know, the beautiful dress. When the Lord has released you, and that's the only way I can— that's the only word I can think of— when he has released you, that because you've received a measure of freedom with him, that you can share the journey of freedom with others. And you talked about being Holy Spirit-led. What does it look like for the Lord to tell you, to lead you? How Can you give me some palpable physical words? What does it feel like? What does it sound like? What does it look like for the Lord to lead you in general, but specifically in this issue? You know what, Jackie, I know you and I have worked this out. Now I want you to put it on paper and talk about it. Now I want you to make that a part of a talk that you give on Sunday. Now I want this to be a part of your platform. How do you know when there is a shift from personal private freedom to sharing that freedom journey? What does it look like for the Lord as he leads you to release you to share publicly?

Two words come to mind for me. Um, one is peace. And my mom would also often say this to me as I was a young girl: Jackie, where peace stops, you stop. And I separate—

so good. Hold on a minute, hold on. That, that right there was good. Where peace stops, you I just want to call that one out. That is amazing. Go ahead, go ahead. That was good.

So I look for shalom of God. He is the God I look for when I am on a journey, or God, I feel like you're calling me to this opportunity. God, I feel like you're calling me to share about this. If I start to sense angst— not fear, not because— what's the difference?

What's the difference between fear, angst?

Uh, so to me, or for me in my personal walk with the Lord, angst is like where I feel unsettled, like I keep going back and forth, like I feel like I'm kind of forcing this. Like, I'll feel almost like I'm like going against the grain. Uh, that's then, uh, like the butterflies where like, oh, this like, God, you got me stepping out here. It almost feels like something beyond myself, but there's still this almost like peace underneath it. It's like almost like, uh, kind of like your heart palpitates, but you know, like, it's like almost there's this fire and fulfillment where you can sense it, like almost like the wind behind you or the the Father pressing something. Um, like, yeah, this is bigger than me and God. I'm leaning on you more, but this is you versus I feel like I'm forcing something. And that's when he's not there and he's saying stop. And I'm not leading you to say that. You might be trying to prove something here. Like, Jackie, why I start to feel like anxiety? I don't know if I'm supposed to go do that. I, for instance, we, me and my, uh, team were talking about doing a master class, and every time it would come up, I would just kind of feel like I just keep feeling this, like, I don't really know if God is asking for that. And I don't ever want to do something that he's not in, because if he's not in it, then I have to sustain it. I don't ever want to be in that place. So there'll be this consistent— I don't think so, uh, that'll keep coming up, this alarm where you don't feel the peace of God. Um, but then another word that comes to mind is following the breadcrumbs. Um, like, he will sometimes uncover these things in the scripture. Like, I'm like reading and he'll just keep bringing up Um, like right now I'm, uh, I'm in Exodus studying and he keeps talking about build according to the pattern, like build according to what I showed you on the mountain. And so he's highlighting this idea of vision, like, like, Jackie, vision isn't just something that I show you, it's so you're, you're able to build according to exactly what I want. And when you build, even if I'm saying build a tabernacle, if you don't build according to the pattern, you didn't build what I wanted. And so I'm coming to recognize how important vision is and how important margin is to get vision. Because when I get vision, this precise instruction of the Lord, and then I can build according to the pattern and I don't have to go guessing. And so it's like that was a breadcrumb. And so if he keeps highlighting this and he's saying it in Exodus 26 and 27 and 28, he's making that loud on purpose. And so that'll be a— y'all know the next thing that he's wanting me to share about, like I'm sharing right now. He just brought that up to me. Like, I was telling my best friend, we went on this little retreat yesterday, and I was telling her one way that I love the— I will make the Bible really alive is I'll talk about it like episodes. Like, I wonder what's going to be in Exodus 28, like episode 28 of the Bible. What is he going to be talking about right now? And although, you know, people can get bored, like, oh, he's just talking about how to build a tabernacle. You need to find out what he's saying loud over and over again. And he keeps saying, build according to the pattern. That for me is a breadcrumb and how he'll illuminate what he wants me to be focused in on. And that clearly might be what he's speaking to the Greens for this time. And so that's the thing that I'll be echoing as a wife to my husband, Daddy. Um, husband, like, God gives you vision. We got to build according to the pattern. We can't just go out there. If he's going to say strike the ground, we got to strike according to the pattern that he's asking us to strike. And so that's one way you know what God is leading you to in that season of your life. Practically.

Listen, I'm gonna have to put that back on replay, take notes on it, because, you know, that's one of the— I mean, think about it, how many people have asked you, how do I know if God is talking to me? How do I know if he said— how do I know if these are my thoughts or his thoughts? You know, I'm not that middle ground. And when people give the churchy answers— and there's nothing wrong with churchy— but if people give the church answers, you know, if you just walk with him, you learn how to hear his voice. That is true, but people want to sink their teeth into it. Like, what does it seem like when he's speaking? And I love some of the things that you were saying, like, um, just that you may have fear, but there's a deep knowing underneath it. There's something underneath it. I loved how you talked about going against the grain, um, in your own strength. So the church way to say it is, you know, you don't want to operate in your own strength. Well, what is that like? You know, what is that like? That is like there is clearly something flowing and I'm going in an alternate direction or in a cross direction or against the grain. Like, that was very, very clear. And I think that people who listen can under— can understand that. Um, you seem like a pretty bold person, and I know that one of the goals that you would have of women who get this message, get the book, listen to more from you, is that they're willing to show up and be bold as they were created to be. Um, you are a bold person, I can tell that. Um, how does this message translate for someone who does not have a bold personality? What does it look to show up if showing up doesn't look like, you know, front of the magazine cover with ballroom gown and with my tennis shoes on? Showing up on stage— this week my hair has a wig, this week I got braids, this week I got nothing. Showing them, like, what does it look like if I don't have a microphone in my hand? How does my freedom— what does it look like for me to show up if I'm not doing that in the kinds of ways that Dr. Jackie is?

I love that question. Um, the first thing that came to mind, Chrystal, was meekness. Meekness is strength under control. And it was such a model of who Jesus was. He wasn't, you know, with flamboyant clothes on. He wasn't, you know, fighting to be at the front of the line. He was very clear in who he was in his call and very true to assignment. Boldness shows up in that you are true to the assignment of God for your life. And so if you are being called in this particular season to mommy, you might be at your, you know, getting ready to have your first baby. Being, uh, honest and authentic enough to say like, God wants me to, to, to mother this way, and being authentic to like, I feel like he wants me to homeschool, or I feel like he wants me to pull away from my job in this season, or I feel like he wants me to make the 3 meals a day That is a bold declaration to be honest about. This was the vision that God showed me for my particular life, and he wants me to do that particular thing. And me doing that is a bold declaration to be authentically who God made me to be. No different than the teacher who's been called to run a classroom of 20 kids. You actually showing up and maybe just laying your hand on a student, maybe never saying, "I'm praying for you," but just laying your hand on them to speak words of comfort and, uh, encouragement over that child. That is you authentically showing up how God made you and serving the assignment for which you have breath. And I don't think anything is more bold than that. You authentically being exactly the way God made you to be and not trying to alter it or fix it or tailor it to be anything other than that, to me, is boldness. It's not necessarily being loud in volume, it's being loud in obedience. And that to me is the boldness that God is after more than something that is so loud or boisterous, so to speak.

So, so very good. I mean, this is so good. Um, I think that showing up where we're supposed to be and ignoring, you know, all the stuff— we know we're not supposed to pay attention to social media, we know we're not supposed to pay attention to what Betty Sue is doing across the street. Um, but showing up where I'm supposed to be— there are so many people that are doing things every day and they don't feel like, "I'm supposed to be here." They are a teacher, and they just don't— they don't feel like they're supposed to be here. They are at home with their kids, and they're changing diapers. "Oh my gosh, I left a great job. I mean, I'm choosing this, or, you know, I'm not able to progress on my job as fast as I would like because of the responsibilities I have with my children." Man, this is great honoring, God-honoring stuff, but man, This is hard. I don't want to be here. I don't want to change these diapers. I don't want to be the teacher. I don't want to be the secretary. My boss is horrible. I don't feel free, and I also don't feel like I am where I'm supposed to be. And, um, being bold— how can I do that? How can I be free when I'm on the road to freedom? So I'm not there yet, and showing up where God has me right now also doesn't have me feeling free. You know, I'm in a season of going to school, I'm in a season of building my career, I'm in a season of raising kids, I'm in a season of trying to figure out what the heck I want to do with my life because I'm in college and I still don't know what to major on. Like, this sounds great if I can walk in freedom knowing what it is that I love, knowing the passions that I have, and moving forward. But if I don't know, like, I don't know, I, I don't Yeah, I want to be comfortable in my own skin, but I can't attach freedom to what I do every day because I don't like it. What would you say to that person who is wanting to grab onto what you're saying, but they don't yet know how or where they're supposed to show up in a way that is highly meaningful to them? It just feels like they're wasting or just, you know, spending their fucking time. Yeah. Uh-huh.

I would say, um, this one truth, um, is something that made me go hard after freedom when I was living in a season of some of those same things. I was changing the babies, I felt insignificant, I felt like no one cared if I didn't show back up to Fort City, nobody would—

it wouldn't matter, right?

I mean, all of it. Like, I'm sick of these kids, I'm sick of this marriage, I'm sick of this house, I'm sick of— all these are supposed to be blessings, it don't feel very blessed right now. I feel over it. Like, okay, I was like You know what? I'm deuced up on all of the showing up for everybody. I feel stuck. One of the things that kind of kept me as a promise that I had always held in my heart is that if God would send his son to die because he loved me so much, then I would have to think about why he sent his son. One of the things that he says on the other side of him sending his son is that he came that we might have life and life to the full, or life, life more abundantly, right? And so if he would do all of this to send his son, because he wanted me to have abundant life, then there had to be something he had in mind for each one of us as individuals. And that had to include Jackie. He didn't send his son without me in mind. So if that is true, and he says that before he formed me, he knew me, there was something that he had as a plan. And if I don't know the plan, because I am not Jesus Jr., and although I might have been functioning like Jesus Jr., choosing my own major, choosing my own boyfriend, choosing my own spouse, making the decisions for myself, and it's landed me in a stuck place or landed place where I have not found the fullness of the thing that I'm currently in, then maybe I might should slow down before I even try to find the thing, Chrystal Hurst, that fulfills me. Maybe I should just go back to the one that is fulfilling and find and start digging to find out who I am and what he has to say about me. Because what I do believe is that God is the God that will sing the song of the Lord over you. He gives affirmation as to who you are and what he wants for your life. I think even just pausing to go back to him and be honest God, I'm not fulfilled. God, I feel stuck. I feel paralyzed. I feel like fear is getting the best of me. It's a good starting place of just being vulnerable and being honest. What I love to tell people often that was so true for my story is that God will not heal what we hide, but he's so, so— he's so true to— he's so true to heal what we will be willing to reveal. And when I was honest enough to say that it wasn't everybody else's fault, I didn't need more support. I needed to get to a place where I was honest with myself. That I wasn't fulfilled and be willing to do something different, a lot start changing for me.

God will not heal what we hide. Wow.

He will not.

Wow.

The more I was willing to uncover, he kind of started to step into those places and he started to reveal things about me, like, Jackie, you don't— you love to pour into women. And before you know it, it was like these breadcrumbs after next breadcrumbs started leading. One small yes would lead into another yes. And I didn't go after— I wasn't in pursuit of anything. I was just pursuit of him, in pursuit of learning to find fulfillment with him, it unlocked the doors of fulfillment in every other place. There wasn't a destination. He was my destination. Me getting to know him better and not just being after a thing, because all those things change, man. I found real life when I found Jesus, and that's just the truth. That's not a churchy cliché. The best and most satisfying feeling, even today with all the things that I've done, is still found in that little prayer room downstairs with me That's what I was gonna say.

You said he was your destination. I found Jesus. Now, you went to church, you knew the Lord, but in this season of your life, going deeper, chasing after him looked like— and you answered that at least partly by saying that little prayer room downstairs. Can you give me, can you give me some pictures of what chasing Jesus looked like? When were you prioritizing that time?

Time?

How long were you spending? What were you doing, um, to get on that chase?

So initially, and because it started at a time where I had a really young baby, and I want to say that for like, it won't always look the same from season to season. In one season, it was in a big orange chair rocking that baby up at 4 o'clock in the morning, 3 o'clock in the morning. And sometimes I would just pray in the spirit. I would sometimes just like turn on worship music. I would put my AirPods in and I would be rocking, and I would just pray. I would pray over that child, I would pray over my life, I would pray over all the things that I was frustrated about. That was a part of— that was a form of me chasing. It changed into my baby getting a little older and getting to go to daycare. And I would literally— and it's still to the day what I do— I go in my prayer room. I don't sit on the couch. I feel closer to God when I'm on the ground. I sit on the floor, I got a little pillow, I sit on it. Literally, I sit on my little pillow, I have my journal, and I grab my Bible. And And I think it was Priscilla who actually taught me this, saying that I read the word until the word reads me. I don't just read to say like, I read. I don't have a certain amount of scripture I gotta read today. If one word that I, one scripture, one verse grabs me, or one word in that verse, I'll pour over it. I will go look it up. I will get a commentary. I go to enduringword.com because I found that that was like a reputable commentary online. So I'll always have a book. I will write in my journal just where I am, Abba, thank you for today. Like, thank you for a new day. Thank you for new mercies. God, what do you want to do with today? God, I hang you my agenda. I'll hang you, uh, the things that are pressuring me. I'll tell him about the things that I'm afraid about, the transitions. I'll literally just write it all out. And sometimes as I'm writing, I'll hear him say something. I'll star that. Okay, God, you want me to rest. I'm moving too fast. Okay. So those will be things that I'll take out of that prayer room, and I'll say, hey, to my assistant, in my prayer time today, I felt like the Lord was saying I needed to add pause to my life. Can we build in some some more days of just Sabbath or time to myself so that I can create pause. I'll read my Bible. I'll sometimes have a book. Like, I love David Díaz Hernández. And so sometimes it's me and a book. I'll turn on my worship. All of these are forms of me chasing the Lord. And it's not the same every day. And I don't force it to be the same. I'll kind of be led. The same thing when peace stops, I'll stop. Like, I'll pick up— look, I have one of my books right here. I'll pick it up. I'm like, God, is it Victory Over Darkness today? And I'm like, eh. I don't really feel that, I put it down. My, my Devo book right now is, uh, Priscilla Shire. Literally, I'm literally studying, uh, and it's like, do we need to do this today? And he might say yeah, so we'll open it up and whatever day I'm on, I'll do that. Sometimes it's just me and my journal. I'll grab my journal and we'll start writing. Don't force it to be a thing. That's what keeps it beautiful and what keeps it alive and fresh. Um, I think when we start like, I gotta read a certain number a day, it just gets old and I like it to be fresh where I'm kind of trying to find him in this journey of like where he's leading me for today.

So beautiful, so real, so clear, so fresh. It is my pleasure to get to know you. My kind of people. I hope you feel that. I feel it. You feel it?

Yes.

Except, except, except I, I don't be coming to interviews with my face beat. I can't do all that. Apart from that, apart from that.

Oh my God, this is what I was gonna tell you, Chrystal Hurst. Your internals be like— you can tell that you spent real time with the Lord. It's in your posture, it's in the way that you make another woman feel. I feel safe with you, and all women can't do that for another woman. That takes your time with the Lord where you have beautified the internal man. And man, that's what I wanted to say more than anything. I feel safe with you, like I feel like my best self. I don't always feel the same way Like, other people bring out the best parts of you, and I feel like you do that for people. And I didn't want that to go without being said. Like, you're a gift to another woman. Like, I feel like this was beautiful because of what you brought out of me. In a way, I can't even really— I don't even feel like I have proper language to the gift that you are.

Wow, that is super, super encouraging to me. I'm so honored to have a chance to meet you, and I'm so excited about your book and about the level feel of freedom because you're bringing who you really are to the surface and saying, look, this is what I learned, this is what God is teaching me. And I think the biggest thing that's so important is that as I ask you the questions, you were like, I may not even have the fully developed words to say it, but let me describe to the best of my ability how this works for me. And, and as you went through that, you have given teeth— like, people can sink their teeth into what you're saying. Like, oh, I see what she's talking about, I can do that. Like, even when you were talking about the books. You just freed somebody from feeling like a failure that they don't finish, that they go from whatever is needed from book to book as on a needed basis, not because completion isn't the goal, transformation is. And so that was freeing. Just that one little thing is very clear, very, very clear and easy to implement. So thank you for being you. Thank you for joining me. And, uh, let's just call this the first time and look forward to the next.

Yes, ma'am. I appreciate Thank you so much.