Emily Freeman on How to Make Difficult Decisions

Hey there. Welcome to another episode of the Sister Circle Podcast. I'm Chrystal Evans Hurst, and sometimes I invite a sister or a brother to join me for the show. Sometimes there's just some stuff I want to tell you, and it would be better if I had a friend to help me tell you. Today, my friend Emily P. Freeman is joining me, but here's what you need to understand. If you've ever been in a situation where you're trying to figure out, do I stay or do I go? Do I go in or is it time to leave? What's the next right decision? Is it time to continue or should I quit? We've all been there. We've all tried to figure out how to move forward and we've all felt the consternation from not being sure that we know the answer. If you're trying to figure out whether to go to this church or go to that church, start the business, fold the business, every single one of those decisions and so many more have this feeling right when you're on the edge of what is the right thing. Well, Emily P. Freeman is renowned as saying, just do the next right thing. But when the next right thing determines whether you go in or out of a room, that can feel like a big decision. You're on the cusp of making a big decision in your life. This podcast, man, it's gonna be what it needs to be for your life. I wanna make sure on the front end that I tell you where to find her, just emilypfreeman.com. And I'll tell you more at the end of our conversation about what she has waiting for you on her site that you should take advantage of. But for now, let's jump into my conversation with Ms. Emily P. Freeman. Y'all, I am so delighted to have Emily P. Freeman back with me on the podcast. First of all, if you've never heard of her, which I know many of you have, um, you're in for a treat because everything she says, everything that comes out of her mouth is soothing and calming and peaceful. You just feel like somebody's rubbing your back, serving you a cup of tea and giving you some solid hard-earned truth. I'm grateful to have Emily back on the podcast. She's been with me before, but today she's back because not only does she have a more recent book to talk about, how to walk into a room, but also because the topic of this book, which is basically like, when do you go? When do you stay? When is it over? When do you persevere? And I know if you're like me, that is a question that you're asking all the time, maybe with family relationships, maybe with business connections, maybe it is with a church or ministry opportunity, maybe it is with your kids. When do you say I'm walking in and when do you say it's time to walk out? Emily, thanks so much for joining me today. I'm glad to have you.

I'm thrilled to be here.

Well, I am, which by the way, congratulations on a New York Times bestseller. That's amazing.

Thank you.

I am so excited to talk to you about, and I literally always feel like while there are so many requests for the podcast that I get. Um, we have recently cut back on the number of podcasts that we're doing. Um, last year we did one a week for me and one a week for a guest. And, um, this year we're going back to one a week, which means mine are half and my guests are half. So I'm getting really choosy about who I want to talk to. And when, of course, you're someone I want to talk to, but when I saw the content of your most recent book, I thought, oh no, I personally need to talk to her. So that's kind of become my choosing mechanism is what do I need? What do I, what do I need to talk about? And I think that, um, one of the biggest things, if I could just kind of launch out with the pain point for me and then extrapolate that into the pain point for so many people, um, there are so many good things that happen in our lives that we're grateful for that maybe we work hard for, maybe they're unexpected. And then at some point, it may be a few months down the line or a few years down the line, some of the things that came with it, we didn't anticipate, or we loved it one time and we, and we no longer do it, no longer fits. And figuring that out can, can be hard because it's confusing. It's like, wait, this was a blessing, but wait, uh, you know, I remember thanking God for this opportunity, or wait, I remember working hard for this. But why do I feel this dis-ease? Why do I feel this discomfort? Is this just me being tired? Is this me, you know, running outta steam? Do I need a break? Do I need respite or is it over? And that whole process of just trying to identify and decide what it is, is crazy because you just, there's so much self-doubt in that process. So I wanna start out by just asking you that question. What you're sharing in this book, I'm assuming, has come out of some process where you've learned to identify how to look at the pain points and the information that you're getting and how to segment that. How long do you think this process of getting clarity to write it for us has taken you?

Oh gosh, what a question. Well, first of all, I agree with you. When we are carrying those kinds of questions. And I'm glad you started here, particularly with spaces that we wanted, prayed for, and were a blessing. It can be so confusing when we start to question those spaces and all those things you said. Am I just tired? Do I need a rest? Have I changed? Or here's one that I hear a lot. I must just be spoiled rotten because how could I possibly question this wonderful gift when, and here's the kicker, so many people would want to be here or so many other people tried this and didn't make it and I got it and here I am. So that means, I guess in our minds, we, when I say this out loud, we're going to say, I don't think that, but what we really are thinking is it means I have to stay here and love it forever. Which really implies nothing can ever change. And we all know in our lives as grown humans, and even as young people, we know that most things change. There are very few things in our lives, commitments or otherwise, that remain so forever. And so really, it should come as no surprise to us when we start to sense the, the season to begin to change. I mean, creation all around us. That happens all the time. And it's part of the healthy human rhythm of living things. But somehow when it comes to us, we begin and we begin to question, we think that maybe there's something wrong with me. And so to answer your actual question, which is how long, you know, has this process taken me, it has depended on the room that I've been in. Um, but I will say to answer it more specifically, I did a podcast episode in February of 2022. Called How to Walk Out of a Room. And so that's been 2 years ago now. And that was really the beginning of this book, How to Walk Into a Room. But the How to Walk Out kind of came first. And you'll see that in the outline of the book. We talk first about leaving because that's where the angst is. That's where when we're questioning something, it's, it's not so much like, how do I walk into the room? Nobody's really asking that question. What we're asking is, how do I know if it's time to walk out? And so that podcast episode was just like a short little 12-minute episode. But it started a conversation in me and in with my listeners to recognize like, oh, there's a lot more we could say about this.

Yeah, that's good. That's so good. And kudos to you for noticing the conversation, you know, and realizing there's more work to be done here. Um, when you talk about the walking in, cause you're right, the angst is many times in walking out. We're talking about walking in. Um, I actually think the point of gratitude, the thing that we're grateful for, uh, the thing that we've prayed for, the thing that we worked hard for, there's an angst related to that too. It's like, is it mine? You know, can I do this? Do I have what it takes? Will people let me in? Can I finance it? Uh, do I have the connections? And so I'd love to talk to you about that for a minute. You've done so many things. I mean, of course, being an author, um, founding Hope Writers, um, with your family, and I've seen you in so many places, the podcast. Um, when you look back on the things that you've done and the things that you've walked into, I'd love to hear a little from you about what it took for you to walk into some of those rooms and maybe some of the struggle that you had in doing so.

Well, the first word that comes to mind is when it comes to walking into some of those rooms has been courage, has been having to find maybe a belief in myself and in God with me that I didn't always fully believe or embody, but I sort of had to act as though it was real, which is sometimes what faith looks like is acting as though I believe this, even if I don't feel like it's true. And I think too, you know, I don't say this kind of in a cliché way, but doing the next right thing has really saved my life so often. That's why I talk about it so much. It's a borrowed phrase that I have now hijacked and talk about it here every everywhere. But really, there is something really powerful about, I mean, because if you would have asked me, you know, even in 2011, when my first book released, I thought that was the only book I'd ever, I would ever write. I walked into the room of being an author and, and I thought, this will be fun for a minute. And then I'm going to go back to my real life. If you would have told me in 2011, how many more books I would have to write, what would be required of me, things I would have to do that feel scary. Conversations that I would have to have that were, would have been intimidating to me at the time. I would have been like, I'm not walking in that room. I don't belong there. Um, but that's why just doing the next right thing was such a kind companion for me because I only knew the next thing to do. I didn't know what it was going to lead to. So I think that's the next right thing posture when it comes to walking into rooms can be a really good friend to us, especially when. We are starting something new and having to embody being a beginner, which is something we don't always love to do.

Yeah, I think the faith that you mentioned is sometimes a part of the problem because faithfulness, consistency, discipline, um, courage, bravery, all those things are the attributes that We are applauded to not only have to walk in the room, but to keep having to stay in the room, which is why walking out of the room becomes a problem. Because am I not being faithful? Am I quitting? Is the issue my own source of discipline? Am I just not willing to go through hard seasons? And so I'd love to ask you about that. Um, some of the messaging that we receive about the right way to be or the right character to have. The stick-to-it-ness and the stories that we hear about people who accomplish great things because they stuck with it. You know, they were consistent for 10 years or 20 or 30 years, or like this was their life work. How do you deal with, or how have you dealt with, um, the questions of your own character for a season ending? The, the, you know, is it me factor?

You bring up such a perfect and wonderful point because What you are asking kind of beneath the question is what are the stories we tell ourselves about what it means to be faithful? And the one that you brought forward is faithfulness always looks like staying. But the reality is sometimes faithfulness looks like having the courage to say the time has come. I have done what I can. I stewarded it well. And I'm going to end this season so that maybe I'm making room for someone else to step in. I'm going to end this season because I'm being a friend to myself and my family and need to move forward to the next right thing. That's faithfulness too. And so before we can make these big decisions about staying or leaving, I think we need to confront and be honest about what are the narratives I have about what it means to stay, not just to make the decision to stay, but to be a stayer. And what does it mean to not just make the decision to leave, but to be what we might say, like a quitter or leaver. What are the narratives I have about those? Because I think the more neutral we can make the choice of staying or leaving, what if both are okay? And there's some, listen, I'm assuming we are all on the same page when we talk about, I'm not talking about leaving your children, right?

We're gonna stay with our children.

You know, like I'm gonna be a mom. Like that's, that is my responsibility. I'm talking about those areas in life where we have choice, where we, where it is possible to make a choice. Um, And so starting there of, oh, what do I think about what it means? And what are my family stories? What are the things that I might not even be aware of that I think about myself? Because those questions are identity questions and those are coming into play when we make these external decisions. And so I think we wish we could come to all of our decisions kind of with a blank slate, but we don't. We bring every story we have about our character. Into the room. And so the more neutral we can make the choice itself, I think the better we're able to hear the movement of God, our season of life, the desire of ourselves and our families as we make our decisions.

So good. Um, this idea of hearing is important. And I know that that's a big deal because people are always trying to get the right answer. And they're like, but how do I know? How do I know if this is God or if this is This is my own fear, or this is my own mind convincing me of something I should not do. Um, and so I know that, you know, one of the things that you like talking about is spiritual practices and even some unconventional ones. And so for someone who wants to get it right and wants to hear, hear what's truly happening inside, cuz sometimes like you said, there are stories we tell ourselves, but really being honest about what do I need? Um, how can I serve? And also adding to that, what does God require of me? Um, how can I hear? What are those spiritual practices, conventional or otherwise, that put us in the place where we can hear and then have confidence about what we're hearing?

The easiest way I have found to talk about this very important question is to lean on a four-part movement or a four-part framework. Um, and it uses the word Pray, P-R-A-Y, and I'll walk through it briefly because I think it does answer the question thoroughly when it comes to hearing and listening. And this is for deciding about leaving or staying, or really just hearing God, hearing myself, and what are some practices I can engage. The first is point and call, which comes from the Japanese railway system, which is the safest in the world, where they embody, um, every job that they have of what the train does, they do, they embody it with their body and with their mouth. So for example, if the train comes into the station, the train worker whose job it is to stand on the platform will point to the signal and say, they'll point to the signal and say, signal is green. And it is, it is like almost like a really elementary thing to do. Like, yeah, we all see that, but there's something in that to embody it, to point and to say it out loud. This is what's true right now. And it has helped. Things move more smoothly. In fact, it's reduced workplace errors by 85%. If you apply that to our inner life, is that is a practice of paying attention. And so what are some things I can do? What are some questions I can ask about what's happening right now? And this is part of hearing is paying attention to what is true. And so that's a practice of pointing and calling. The second movement is to remember your path. So many times when we want to know. Am I hearing God? Um, what should I do next? What decision should I make? The 10, the temptation is to lean forward and try to look into the future. I don't know about you, but I can never see anything when I try to look into the future.

And I do try.

I can try. And often when I do try, things usually look terrible because I tend to predict terrible outcomes. But what I do have and where I can look is look back. I can look back and see where have I come from? Where has God been faithful? When do I know that I know that I know that I was hearing from my friend Jesus and I did my next right thing? When were times when I listened to my, that still small voice within me and I moved in a direction that was healing and whole? What were those times? And can I keep record of them? Can I engage in a regular practice of reflection in my life? Not just in December at the end of the year, but a regular, sometimes daily or weekly, or even just monthly practice of reflection. Action so that when the moment of decision comes, I have a lot of data to draw from because I'm a reflector on my life and I know how God has spoken to me in the past and how it's turned out. So that's remember your path. I'll stop there since it's the middle. Any words you want to say before we move on?

No, please keep going. It is, this is great. Amazing. Because of course I was like, pray, it's an acronym. I know where she's going with this. And I was like, no, I don't. I don't know where she's going.

No, I don't. No, I don't. The third movement is to acknowledge presence. Anytime we have a decision to make, there can be a fear that we have to make it alone. And the reality is we don't ever have to make our decisions alone. If nothing else, um, we are, we can always believe that God has been with us, that God is with us now. And no matter the decision we make, God will be with us in our next right thing. And so that's obviously the presence of God, but also the presence of wise counselors, the presence of family and friends who we can lean on, not only, but to, and same goes for our own voice. One of the people that I often forget is myself. And people get really nervous, especially my, my faith friends, my friends in the church get really nervous when I say that.

When you start sounding kind of new agey, is that what happens?

When I say it, yes, they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, slow your roll. When I say, what if you could trust yourself? And everyone says, but I can't, my heart is deceitful above all things.

That's correct.

And I would just say to that, our friend Jesus performed a beautiful work on a cross that we all know well and, uh, brought new life to something that was dead.

Yeah.

If that is true, then there is new life within me that is not deceitful and wicked. And so there is something of ourselves. United with God that we can trust and believe.

It's so good, Emily.

And it is generative and it is whole and there is light there. And I am not saying trust yourself to the exclusion of everyone else. No, but what if we could trust ourselves too? And so acknowledging presence means the presence of God, the presence of others, and my own presence in the room. That's part of knowing. How do I, how am I know that I'm hearing God? Well, God is not, God is not out there, some invisible presence that we have to work hard to get to. God is in me. God is in you. God can work in circumstance. These are the things we're paying attention to. And when we do PRA, the Y is yield to the arrows. And this is really just another way of saying, okay, all of that into consideration, what is my next thing now today? And You know, this arrows, I've been talking about arrows for a while and sometimes I'll have readers or listeners be like, I don't get the arrows, Emily, say more words about it. And the easiest picture I've found to talk about it is if we, like I'm in North Carolina and if I was planning to drive to Arizona, the reality is if I get on the interstate and leave my little town of Greensboro, North Carolina, there will be no sign, Chrystal, that says this way to Arizona. It's not gonna happen. It's too far away, but it will say this way to Asheville. And so I'll get on the road and I'll head to Asheville. That's what an arrow is. An arrow might not be pointing direct exactly at your destination, but it's my next right thing for now, knowing there's a bigger picture at work here. And it could be that we think we're going to Arizona and actually we're going to end up someplace else. And that's kind of in God's hands as we move together, as we P-R-A-Y, um, and do our next right thing. But I have found that when I move through those, when, when that movement becomes not just something I do today, but a way of living my life, of paying attention, of remembering my path, of acknowledging presence, and then doing my next right thing, I have more confidence. I don't always know exactly what God's saying, or if it's God or if it's me. Um, but I have more confidence that we don't work so separately, that there is a union that's happening in my relationship with God and, and in my community. That I can trust.

That is amazing. That is, uh, amazing. And I love how— I mean, you have such a gift of simplifying what is very overwhelming, convoluted, um, and it can be frustrating when you're really trying to get the right answer, but, um, when the right answer may be the right destination, and really you just need Next right thing. And so all the things in the middle that trip us up and make us feel like we're failing because we don't have it all figured out. You just have a way of really simplifying that for me. And I'm glad, um, you are so peaceful, as I mentioned earlier, in your approach to communication, in your approach to solution sharing. Um, And some might say, well, this is probably easy for her because she, she naturally seems reflective, seems thoughtful, um, in a healthy, maybe pensive, but healthy way. I'm not wired like that. You know, I'm a ball of anxiety and I may be a bit impetuous and, um, spontaneous and. I don't know if I can make decisions that way, like take my time going through them. Um, and so I'd love for you to speak to design, how maybe design and how we are individually wired plays a role in how we approach the decisions we make of walking in or walking out of the room.

It's so fascinating to me how we and I do this too, assume that if we see something exhibited in someone, it must come naturally.

Yeah.

That, that is something that they were born with. And the reality is, I think that's true in many cases, personality-wise. I also think the point of spiritual formation is that we are being formed into the likeness of Christ. And so that means that we are people who believe in the power of change and transformation, which means that though I may be predisposed to anxiety or to, uh, acting before I think, that I am not destined to be anxious or to be impulsive, and that I can cultivate a practice of slowing myself down with my friend Jesus before I make a decision, not perfectly, but maybe in a whole, in a way that invites wholeness. So to answer your question, um, I am a more naturally reflective person that comes fairly naturally to me. I would not say I'm naturally a peaceful person. I come from a long line of anxious women, long line. Um, and that was the language of my childhood was the language of anxiety. That so much so that I thought mothering was like, to be a good mother meant to worry. That's what I thought it was. Cause that's what it was. That was what was modeled for me. And there comes a time when you either have to lean all the way into that and there's all these repercussions of that, or you just, uh, and, and I'm still in this process, right, of recognizing like my body can't, I don't want to live like that with all that anxiety in my body. And. I was just talking to someone yesterday and she was saying how our nervous system is designed to expand and contract to like be able to receive all of our nervous feelings, but then also calm back down. And I think for a lot of my life, I've tried to get rid of the anxious feelings, thinking that that's what it means to not be anxious is to not feel anxiety ever. And the reality is it just means to not get stuck there. And so some of these practices have helped me. Not get stuck in anxiety. For example, looking back in reflection, I can point to times when some of the most fear— fearful times in my life have happened in the last 4 years. And I can point to that though and say, but we didn't stay there. Here I am today. We, if I'm living, I've survived it. And that has helped me. That has helped bring some peace to my decision-making because at the time when you're in the midst of that scary time, it feels like it's going to go on forever and nothing's ever going to be okay.

Okay.

So I do think some of this is cultivated, but I also think that's the, that's the beauty of having a framework is that for those of us for whom our decision-making style or a way of moving through the world is maybe at a faster clip, that having a framework means you can actually look at something and say, okay, step 1, step 2, step 3. It's not perfect. And it's not really like 4 steps to perfect decisions, but it is a movement. It is something you can kind of hang your hat on. If it doesn't come naturally. So that is why I think it is helpful to have some, some movements or some steps there.

Do you want to live a life you love? Do you need help doing that? Well, my name is Chrystal Hurst, and I've created a tool that will help you do just that. It takes the best of a planner and combines it with the best of your own personal coach and puts it in one place. This is the Full Circle Planner, and it will give you the right questions, the right time to help you get the right answers to own your life. Get your Full Circle Planner today. That's super helpful. Um, especially the long line, cuz I do think we think when we look at the people around us, particularly our family of origin or even our friends, it's like, how am I gonna run away from this? How am I gonna be different? When in reality we can be. Um, closure is one of the things that I know you wish people ask you about more often. And I think Uh, you believe that there's a myth surrounding closure and I'd love for you to talk about that.

When things end, man, all we, all we want is closure. And some of us spend our whole lives trying to force the ending to be something that it wasn't. And because it wasn't that, it's like we, we cannot move forward. And so I think that we, we always get endings. You know, we talked about that already, that endings almost always come in almost every area, not every area, but most areas. But closure is a luxury. Sometimes we get it. And when we do, that's when we have parties and that's when we toast. And I say, if you get closure in a situation, especially if it was hard, wrap your beautiful arms around it and enjoy it because that is a real gift. But mostly what we get are, uh, untied up endings. We get lack of communication. We get frustration. We get sadness, anger. Uh, we get um, conversations that happen when we're not in the room and we aren't there to explain ourselves. We get untold stories and reputations questioned and we get pain. And then we're expected to just kind of move on. And that's really hard. And so what I find though is while closure doesn't almost, almost never comes naturally, there is a way we can find the closure that we need when we don't get the endings that we wanted. And I think that comes for me, that comes from, um, even making a physical list. And I've done this in my journal. I have done this and I'm not, you know, you don't have to be a journal to do this. I'm talking bullet points, right? List. I've made lists of, okay, this ended and it did not end the way I wanted or hoped for. However, there are still gifts that I received from that room, from that community, from that space, from that job that I can now write down because there are people I wouldn't have met had I not been in that room. There are skills I acquired that I would not have. There are transferable skills that I'm going to bring with me. So here are the things I'm bringing with me. But then a next, a second really important list to find closure when it was an imperfect ending is to make a list of the things you have to leave behind, because there are some things that will not fit through the door. We just have to leave them behind.

Wow.

And one of those things I've already touched on is the story you will never get to tell. It is just too big. There are, as soon as you think you've got it under control, you hear about a whole nother conversation or a meeting after the meeting that happened and you weren't invited. And you're like, this is never, the closure is never going to come because I'm never going to be able to convince everyone of my side of the story. And my friend, I have so much compassion for that. I have been there and I'm here to say, I invite you to leave that in the room. You cannot take it with you. If you try to, you'll find yourself holding a box of like, it's like leaking and it's got like feathers in it. And it just, you try to fit through the door and it just won't, it won't, it won't come. And so you'll be stuck in that threshold for a really long time. So I think naming those types of things that you have to leave behind is really important for moving forward.

Wow. Wow. It won't fit through the door. That one right there is going to stick with me for sure. But you did say that when you have the opportunity to have closure, make sure you mark it. Why is that important to mark those endings?

I think that a lot of us, well, first of all, if you think back to the days of COVID there were so many things that ended that were unmarked. And I don't know about you, but there were funerals, there were weddings, there were babies born, there were relationships that ended, there were churches left, there were communities that just sort of fizzled out and we are all carrying carrying around a lot of unfinished endings in our bodies. Yeah, we're carrying them around in our hearts, and they have an impact even if they were really small. I mean, there were— there's a whole graduating class that didn't get to have a graduation, and this is the year they graduated from college. And I'll tell you what, I bet that's so sweet to them right now because they are getting to walk across stages and finally have a communal ending, a communal marking of a thing that they did not get when they left high school. This was the year, and that is a really beautiful. Um, there's some, we're made to mark endings. We're made to do that communally. And when that doesn't happen, so we've got those, like the graduation, the things that happen with others that are easy to mark when we're not in a pandemic, but there are other endings that often happen that are quieter. Like, you know, your kid's last game of Little League where you might think like, this is silly. I don't need to mark this for myself, but Actually, something's ending. A season of your life is ending, a season of parenting and their childhood is ending. And to just have, it could be the smallest way that I'm just gonna, I'm gonna write about that this morning. That's a way of marking. Or I'm going to light a candle for this, for the memory of this person that I didn't get to attend their funeral. I'm going to say a prayer for that. It's a way of marking. You could also throw a party. You could have a bonfire. Like there's lots of ways to mark, but I think it's important for us to be able to point to, yes, that was hard, or yes, that happened, or yes, it was beautiful. And that's where I acknowledged it. And now I'm moving forward from it. So it's something to, for the experience of marking it, but it's also a way of looking back and saying, and, and I, I gave that the attention that I needed to give it to say, this happened, it mattered, and I'm still here.

You know, I think so many of the things that mark our lives and actually make us feel like we're living. Are the things we mark. Otherwise, there's so many things in our everyday that's just, it's the wheel of maintenance. You know, I cook breakfast, I cook lunch, I cook dinner, I go to work, I come home, I go to church. And all these things are important and they're all beautiful. But the marking, you know, that this was a church anniversary or that we celebrated a birthday at home or that, um, you know, we took a vacation or that I went out to meet with a friend. That's what can stand out in memory as I lived, you know what I'm saying? Because we're not going to remember sometimes the wheel of the everyday, but we can remember the things we celebrated because we take the pictures and we talk about it and we, you know, bring it up in conversation. Um, you know, one of the things that I know that can get in the way of not only closure, but also celebration of closure. Is not being sure of where I'm at. Um, like there are times for me and I'm in one of those right now where I'm like teetering between what I think is the right time and what I perceive might be my readiness. And so it kind of feels like it's over, but if I'm not really ready to do the next thing, am I at the end? Am I at the beginning? Sometimes I think. Closure is not clear. Um, and it's not until we have the benefit of hindsight that we can go, oh, that was the, that was the end.

Yeah.

Um, sometimes our official endings aren't when it ended, you know, it's when we acknowledge that it ended. Yes.

That's exactly right.

And so that, that teetering of, am I ready to move on? Is it time to move on? Or I know it's time to move on, but am I ready? Or I am ready, but is it time? I'm thinking about people who You know, like they have a job, they don't like their job, they know what they wanna do next. Um, you know, and they're ready to leave, but is it time? You know, is it, is it time? And the feeling of jumping ship, which some people have had, cuz I think since COVID there's been a lot of job jumping too. You know, people just try to figure it out and then you jump into the next thing and you're like, shoot, you know, I should have waited. This wasn't the right time. Mm-hmm. It's like trying to time the stock market. You can be ready to invest and have done all your homework, and then after the fact you go, dog it, that wasn't the right time. And so how do I reconcile closure when it's not clear? How do I reconcile my readiness or lack thereof with the right time and the tension that comes from trying to figure it out when the beginning and the ending isn't quite clear?

What a beautiful question. And I would first say what pressure we put on ourselves when we see our lives like the stock market. And I know that's not the analogy you were bringing, but I think sometimes that's real. I think sometimes we think the stakes are so high and sometimes they are that I cannot make the wrong move here or everything will fall apart.

Yeah.

And I would just say sometimes that's true. But I think it's less often than we think. I think we all, we think the stakes are always high and it's always my responsibility to get this decision exactly right, to have the timing exactly right. And, and that means there's an exactly wrong. If there's an exactly right, then that means there's one right and every other decision is wrong. And that's a lot of pressure to find that needle in the haystack.

A lot of pressure.

So to begin to instead frame it up when you are truly unsure, when you're like this, I've done the pointing and calling and I've acknowledged presence, I've remembered my path, and I'm trying to do my next right thing here. And I just can't discern, is this the right time or am I just ready? Or is this, this feels like the right time, but I'm not ready. And what do I do in that fog? And I think when you've done the practices and you've, you're standing at the threshold, there is a real grace in doing what you the thing you think best, the best decision you can make at the time, trusting God, trusting your own intuition, and making a move. And knowing that ultimately the success or failure of that decision may not be— the stakes may not be as high as you think, but in fact the real beauty and mysterious thing that's happening is you are becoming someone. That this decision-making process is forming you into a person who's learning to trust herself, who's learning to hear the voice of God. And hey, if you make a move and it was not— it did not turn out the way that you had hoped, or something goes wrong, it doesn't mean you made the wrong move. It means that you are a human person learning to move to the healthy human rhythm of doing your next right thing, of leaving rooms and finding new ones. And you're learning something along the way. Not that everything has to be a lesson in order to count. I don't think that's true. But I do think that nevertheless, here we are becoming someone, and no matter what, God's with us. And this is the final thing I'll say about that is I think this is what comes into play here is our narrative about how we picture God, that if we see God as someone who is holding, you know, one right answer behind his back in one hand and all the wrong answers behind his back in the other, and we imagine this cosmic game of pick a hand, any hand, and we think that like He's hiding it from us and we've got to figure it out. And this is all on us. That is a really cruel way to be God. And that's not the God that Jesus knows in my experience. Instead, I think we have a companioning God who is not necessarily sitting across from us, like, what you gonna pick? But is standing next to us and says, which way are we going to go? And, and in most decisions. Whichever way we choose, God is saying to us, all right, let's go, and I'm gonna go with you.

All right, let's go. So when you don't have a date, Emily, for picking a decision, and the only thing that would move you forward is making the decision, and because there's no external date, there's no, uh, imposed timeline, and you're teetering, what does it look like for you First of all, to pull the trigger, like, what does it feel like? What is your experience when without any kind of external influences for time to go, when you sense, feel, think, experience, go? I'm curious what that looks like for, for you or what it has. It probably look different ways, but well.

Right. We, we love it when there's a, in some ways we hate the deadline, but in other ways we need the deadline because it forces us, it forces us some of our hand. And, and I'll tell you this one little, a fun fact that, or a little trick that you can do with when you don't have a deadline, or even if you do, is to decide in your head that I am going to do it. I'm going to do this thing. Go ahead and pretend to decide it, but don't tell anyone and live with it for 24 hours and pay attention to your body. And your thoughts and your fears and your hesitations. And then, and then see how that goes and then do the opposite the next night. So this is a 2-day practice. You do the opposite, try the other thing. I'm gonna see how that, like, if I were going to say no to this opportunity, I'm saying no, I'm deciding, I'm saying no, pay attention immediately. Is there a slight rise in your body of excitement? Is there some relief? Is there like some disappointment? And noticing those nuances, you kind of have to trick yourself with a deadline.

Yeah.

And doing that the opposite way, I have found that to be really helpful. And when I do that, I usually don't need the 24 hours because I realize like, oh, I'm, I actually kind of know what to do. Um, but I have been kind of fooling myself because of all these other things I'm worried about because what it feels like when I know that I know it's a deep, it's a deep down untouchable, uh, inner peace that. Is unmoving. And it's, and sometimes it takes some time and some quiet to discern that. But I think we probably all know, like when we get really honest and quiet, we know what it feels like to have peace on the inside. Um, and we also know what it feels like to have unrest on the inside and kind of tapping into that for ourselves. There's a writer, her name is Dr. Hillary McBride, and she says that that understanding the difference between true peace and the faux peace that comes from just avoiding an uncomfortable thing, that nuance difference, that's a whole life's work. And I, and I think that's true.

So inquiring minds want to know, um, again, I know many of the things that you are aware of and that you share about, they come from your over time learned, adopted, decided. Principles and rhythms of living. And I know that you don't want to give— I would expect that you probably wouldn't want to give a prescriptive rhythm because rhythms are individual and it depends on the season of life we're in and all that. But I already know inquiring minds are going to want to know what are the rhythms that you have in place, even with some of the things that we've talked about, whether that's journaling or, um, you're the time you're spending with Jesus, rest. Uh, what are the rhythms that you feel like set yourself up for success in getting to those places of peace? Um, getting to those places where you know the yes and the no, even if you're kind of like, pick it, pick whatever it is today. Getting to the place where you have, uh, the ability to make solid decisions about walking in or leaving. The, all of the things that we've talked about, they're encased, I think, in these rhythms that you have in your life that that set you up for knowing, um, what you want to do and when you want to do it? What are some of those rhythms, um, that have served you well either in this current season or in previous seasons as you've moved through your life?

Anytime we talk about rhythms, I think it's so important to keep in mind your own spiritual personality. So how you connect with God and your own core values, what matters most. And so for me, when I consider those two things, rhythms that then make sense to me, because a lot of times we want to start with the rhythm with And then we, like you said, we were like, we're not considering the individual people. But for me personally, um, because I am aware of how I connect with God and because I'm, I know what, what makes me a person, what I value most, I need regular rhythms of, um, creativity, things that I'm doing to be creative with or without telling any, showing anyone. Sometimes it's work related because I do love my work, but sometimes it's just play, you know, it's, it's, it's creativity for creativity's sake. I also need rhythms of solitude. And for me lately, that has not been able to look like a quarterly solitude retreat, like might be nice, but that's just not been my current reality. But I can, but I do know that I need daily a little bit of time by myself. Um, and that sometimes I just, I get that through walking around the block. It takes 12 to 14 minutes walking around my block. And so I'll I'll do that alone. Oftentimes with— I don't listen to anything during that time. I just walk. Sometimes I pray. Sometimes I just listen to the rhythm of my own neighborhood. And that is just gets me in my body. Um, I also have sort of a morning, very loose morning liturgy of prayer that I kind of walk through. Some, it's a combination of borrowed prayers from other people that I read and kind of remind myself. And also, um, lately it's been a lot of reading Psalm 23, reciting Psalm 23. I like to write a page in my journal in the mornings. I do some reading from like a nonfiction, uh, usually like a spiritual life type book in the mornings. Those rhythms are, again, they're not rocket science, um, and they wouldn't be for everyone, but for me, I find those rhythms to be helpful in reminding me, here are the things that make me feel like me. Here are the rhythms that Um, if the house was on fire and everything's falling apart, some of these things are what I would grab because they help me feel like a person. And if I don't engage in some of these practices for a really long time, I start to feel like an imposter in my own life. Like I don't, I'm not really present to what's true, which makes decision-making, right? You see how it's all connected. It makes decision-making all the harder because I'm unaware of like, Who am I? What do I want? How do I connect with God? So that's why those rhythms are so important.

That's so good. So good. So for the person who has been like me, ha, teetering on the edge of a decision, and there's enough of a knowing to know what comes next, but you're not really sure how to walk into that. You know, you walk into a room. And, you know, it's, it's the first step, but it's all the steps that put you fully in the room and you're, and I know that the answer to that question, if I can presuppose, is to do the next right thing. But for the person who's feeling all of the tension and the anxiety about what they think is the next right thing, and they've, they're teetering and because of the pressure or the emotion tied to that decision, or the questions that are tied to that decision. They've just been hanging in the balance. What would you say to that person who's listening right now?

I would say a little something about clarity. It sounds like this person is looking for confidence and clarity in what their next thing should be. Um, and there's two things that I will, I will pull from an entrepreneur named Marie Forleo, who she talks about, um, It sounds like two opposing messages, but I think it's two sides of one coin. She says that clarity cannot be rushed. And so the person you're talking about is someone who's standing in a hallway who wants more than anything to have confidence to walk into their next room, but they're not sure what it is. And I would say, um, thinking of the, you know, John Mark Comer and really Dallas Willard talk about Eliminate the ruthless elimination of hurry. But I think the pace of Jesus is, is not one that's in a hurry and knowing that I can't run. I can't force clarity here. I might just have to wait. And that's the beautiful thing about a hallway. A hallway is a place. It's liminal. It's a liminal space, but you are somewhere. You are in a waiting space. You might not know yet. And that's okay. But the other thing Marie Forleo says about clarity, which I'll pull out here, is that she also says. That clarity comes from engagement, not from thought. And that now encourages action. And I also find that to be true, that even though I may not be clear, there does come a time for, in many of our lives, in these decisions where we just have to make a move. And maybe don't take a huge leap if you're unsure, but take one step in a direction that you think you ought to go and see what happens, because that clarity is gonna come. Not through thinking about the thing, but from actually doing the thing. That's while keeping in mind that it can't be rushed. So you see how it's, it's almost like a stop and go, um, a trust and obey, you know, there's sort of like two sides to the same coin that I, I have found to be really helpful when I feel like I'm lacking clarity.

So good. So good. All, and all of that, I know, super helpful, um, for those who are hanging right there. And those would be me. So there we go. Those, all those, all of those would be me. It has been such a pleasure, y'all. Again, How to Walk Into a Room. Lots of people have already said it's a book worth reading by virtue of it being a New York Times bestseller. It is the art of knowing when to stay and when to walk away. If you, um, have never heard of Emily P. Freeman, or if you have, but you're not listening to her podcast, you're not reading her newsletter, or you're not reading her books, well, Listen, I done told you a few times now, she needs to be in your repertoire. So check her out. We'll make sure that everything you need to do so are in the notes for this podcast. Thank you so much, Emily, for being, um, with me today and for sharing your thoughtful wisdom. I'm really grateful. Hopefully that conversation blessed you just as much as it blessed me. But again, I wanna make sure you know where to find Emily P. Freeman. You can find her at emilypfreeman.com and right there on her website, you can find out more about her book. How to Walk Into a Room. But there's also something that I wanted to make sure you know about. Uh, not only if you grab the book is there a QR code in the back that gives you some audios, some blessings for hello and goodbye. So don't forget that when you get the book, get the QR code, listen to her voice encouraging you. But if you're not ready to get the book or you just wanna learn some more, you're like, how do I decide? Emily's made it easy for you. Simply go to emilypfreeman.com/audios. Decide. And she's got a whole little quiz there to help you think through the decisions you need to make. I know that she's doing what she's doing because she wants to help you move forward. The reason why I had Ms. Emily Freeman on the show today is because I feel the same way. Listen, life is too short not to keep moving. And it's not every day that every movement will feel like the right one, but you gotta keep going. And we can't stay stuck in indecisiveness forever. You may have heard me say this before. The problem with the squirrel flat in the middle of the road is simply this: he or she didn't decide. So here's to walking in or walking out, but either way, let's move this thing forward and decide. I hope this podcast was helpful to you. In fact, I know it was, and I will see you next time.