Family Secrets, Church Hurt & Trauma: Why You Still Feel Stuck

Y'all, I'm so excited about today's conversation. I'm really grateful to have Pastor Jerry Flowers Jr. joining me on the podcast today. Y'all know how I feel about connecting real conversations, um, in life with spiritual things. And I feel like if you have one without the other, you've only got half or less than half of the story. And so when I run across somebody who is willing to have real conversations that has solid spiritual and theological underpinnings, but they are not stepping back from the conversations that we need to have so that we can all be healthy and whole all the way, like God made us. I'm super excited to have that conversation. So would you please help me welcome Pastor Jerry Flowers Jr. to the podcast today? Thank you for joining me.

Yeah, thank you for having me, and I'm honored to be here, and let's see what happens. I'm excited.

Well, you know, I'm, I'm gonna approach this conversation like I told you, like we're all just getting to know each other. I know that that's not true, Um, I've heard about you for a while from Jonathan, and then of course you came to our church to preach, and I've been drinking the Kool-Aid a little bit ever since. But, um, I'm just curious, how is therapy talk and spiritual talk merging? Why are they merging for you? Why have they merged? Why is that even the thing that you've been doing for so long the way you've been doing it?

So for myself, um, It actually happened where I had an epiphany. I was having a counseling session with a couple and they were asking questions that we were like currently in a whole series about. And I'm thinking like, you didn't hear Sunday? That there's a whole— like we broke down the steps. And as they were just conversing, I had this epiphany, man, trauma is eclipsing their ability to hear sermons. So like, there are biblical principles that they're struggling to carry out because trauma is so loud, dysfunction is so loud. And so then what came to my mind was a passage of scripture, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." Well, I'm speaking to people who constantly despise themselves. So then I'm like, man, it's going to be difficult for them to do that. It's going to be difficult for them to love their neighbor. It's going to be difficult for them to be generous because trauma is so loud. So then that is when Therapy Thursday was birthed because I recognized that there's certain things they're not even hearing because of trauma, because of pain, because of betrayal. Um, and that's really kind of like the, the groundwork of how it all started for me.

How long have you been doing Therapy Thursday?

Since 2021. 2021 is when we first started, uh, Therapy Thursday, and it's been amazing.

So, so now you're doing that and preaching sermons every week?

Now I have a crew. When we first started, I was doing Therapy Thursday every Thursday, uh, with a brother of mine. Now I have a team, so we— every Thursday we, we tackle a Therapy Thursday topic. But I only do it like once or twice a month with my other ministers.

But still, on those weeks that you're doing it, you're doing that and preaching a sermon? Like, you got two services? Because these are not like 10-minute tips, like, you know what I mean? Like This is like we're going in and we're going in deep. I guess I'm curious, the content, the topic that you choose to tackle on Therapy Thursday, kind of what is the process that makes that topic rise to the surface of the thing that you're gonna, you know, 'cause you could connect it to the sermon series, you could connect it to pain points that you're seeing as you pastor, you could be connecting that to the content plan that you had at the beginning of the year. But when you have got two trains running like that, right? Sunday sermon, and then you've got once or twice a month that you're doing that. Kind of what is the process that helps you to decide this is the topic I'm going to tackle?

So for me, um, I firmly believe there's a great difference between being a great preacher and a great pastor. Um, if you can get up and exegete scripture and teach people the principles of God, that's great. But to fully know where people are battling and struggling and warring, that's shepherding. So what I've noticed through Wednesday nights, we have small groups, we have discipleship constant things are brought up. What about my last church? Or what about false teachers? Or what about what my mom did? And so that usually gives me like really a temperature check of what's going on in our local assembly, which I've discovered is not just localized to the house. It's something that's happening throughout the world. So when somebody was speaking about like, how do I grieve over somebody who's still alive? That's a great Therapy Thursday topic. So that's usually how we get the content is just wherever I sense there's a struggle that is congruent and consistent, then that's something that we tackle. Yeah.

Now I'm curious, how do you hear the questions? People just walking up to you after church? Or, you know, is there a staff meeting where people are saying, these are where people are struggling? How do you keep, especially with your life and the number of things that are a demand on your time and the things that you're called to, keep that pulse while you are ministering to a growing, uh, congregation?

Yeah, it's all of it. It's like a case study, you know. Uh, we have a sample group. What's the number one topic that was brought up in men's group, crisis group, premarital counseling, and discipleship development? The questions that were submitted, how many counts, um, our overseers and people who are holding people accountable, what was the constant theme of that? And usually they're always surfacing around similar topics. So that's kind of how I guess I debrief or I evaluate what is every area kind of speaking about and just being honest. It's really like spiritual— being a spiritual janitor. I really believe like anybody who really kind of has their ear to heaven, especially like maybe a millennial pastor, you want people to be aware of false teaching. You want people to heal. And you want to clean up a lot of this mess that is not in the Bible. So it's, it's— I find myself like being a janitor. I'm serious. And it's crazy how God orchestrated it, because before I was a lead pastor, I worked on staff with my parents, but I was like a janitor. I cleaned bathrooms, toilets, and changed ceiling tile and vacuumed the sanctuary. So it's like God was almost preparing me to usher in like a new season of pastoring, you're used to cleaning up behind people. And so that's honestly how I feel, like I'm cleaning up behind a lot of stuff. I know it went viral, but that's not in the Bible. I know they're popular, but that's not biblical. So it's just a lot of that.

Yeah. No, I love that. And I love the imagery there because, you know, a janitor is normally doing the work after hours, you know, everybody was busy, everybody left the building. Now I'm here just noticing. And, um, because I think, you know, a big part of our ability to minister, not just in a church structural setting, but just one person to another, means you have to have your ear to the ground. Like you had to notice, like you said, in that couple session, we're teaching on this, they're not getting it, and I'm trying to notice what's left on the table. I'm noticing what other people aren't noticing, you know, and I think that's a level of attentiveness that In order for us to even be there for each other, we have to actually be able to see what someone's not saying and to pick up on something that they may not be explaining clearly, to see the actual, to see the actual need. So you got Heart Rehab: Finding the You God Created You to Be. And, you know, when I was looking through this, this concept of It's not personal, it's spiritual. The combination of spiritual with mental and emotional well-being sometimes gets tricky. And in a spiritual space, people can get offended if you start talking to them about their mental health because it's all about Jesus. And then in the mental and emotional space, people get offended if you want to pray about it because I really just need this to be dealt with. And so I'd love to know, how do you navigate those and keep them balanced? Because I think a lot of our unwillingness, frankly, at church, in church, to marry the two is people have experienced them out of balance. So you're coming to me because you really care for my heart, but it feels personal. You know, I'm not sensing that because there's no love in that. How do you keep the balance between the two in a way where people can hear you on both sides, the super spiritual people and the super, you know, millennials? Mental health, because we're all culturally therapized at this point, but to keep the conversation open to the spiritual?

Yeah, well, I think the first thing is to recognize that if you actually study the Gospels, Jesus trafficked highly in healing. Healing, miracles, casting out. He was teaching as well, but also a critical framework of his ministry was healing. Now, When I think about just the power of the Word, I do understand that the Word and renewing your mind with the Word and studying the Word and meditating on the Word can heal many issues as well. However, there are practical things that— yes, I'm reading my Bible. Yes, I'm praying, but I was molested. Yes, I'm reading my Bible. Yes, I'm praying, but I got violated by somebody who was a friend of the family. And so there are real issues that we need the Word to cleanse, we need the Word to wash. But there's some steps that's going to have to happen for you to take what you have gone through, to not confuse it as your personality. I remember so vividly, I told one person, you're not an introvert, you're into hurt. Because this is not how you were before the divorce. I remember the joy that you had. I remember how jubilant you were. After the divorce, that changed. So you're praying, you come into prayer, you come into intercessory prayer, you come to small groups, but your joy has been evaporated. So now we have to go back to the place of, how do I discover the joy I had in the Lord before that betrayal? And so for myself, um, any person who is just hyper, like, oh, it got to be this, it got to be that, I'm like, okay, you obviously don't deal with people. You probably have a perspective of not touching hands. You don't clean up, you don't interact, you're not knee to knee with people, you're not life on life. And so most of the time, people who are critics of any ministry that's trying to introduce healing and wholeness within and biblical, they're not really one-on-one people because it takes a doctor to know the state of patients for him to recognize a prescription is not working. Somebody who just drops by a doctor every now and then, every now and again, they don't know. But I'm dealing with patients every week. And so I think that's one of the differences in myself. But I discovered that it is an untapped or uncharted waters in the body. And I think that's what made Therapy Thursday really grow so much is Um, people need both. I need healing and I need the word of God.

That's really good. I know in this chapter you talked about just the impact of people and how leaning your ear to someone— and you specifically titled the section, leasing your ear to someone is licensing them to operate on you— and the impact of being able to tell, you know, is this me or is this God? Is this, you know, um, someone's ability and willingness to marry spiritual and emotional and mental health also has a lot to do with who we're listening to. And, you know, and I'd love for you to talk about that a little bit because I think our willingness often to hear is impacted by maybe who we heard before and the beliefs and truths that got inserted into our psyche that we haven't been able to release. And so can you talk a little bit more about that and how that impacts our willingness and ability to move forward.

So let's use a, um, popular statement that you probably heard as well, and you could probably finish it for me. What goes on in this house, what stays in this house. Boom! That's not in the Bible. That's not in the Bible at all. Uh, in fact, we're supposed to expose the unfruitful works of darkness. In fact, we're supposed to confess our faults one to another so that we might be healed. So It's possible for us to hear these statements growing up here, "What goes on in this house stays in this house." And I'm like, based on counseling, family secrets don't keep you safe, they keep you sick. And so it's learning that there are a lot of cultural colloquialisms that people say that are not biblical, but we treat them like they're gospel. But that's why you're so bound. That's why you're struggling, bro. I don't know when you're battling, man. So you, you have secret warfares, and warfares turn into wardrobes. You're wearing depression, you're wearing defeat, and I could see it on you, but you're not talking. But I was taught what goes on in this house stays in this house. So that's a very small practical example of how there's something that personal, um, that I grew up learning that I have to unlearn, but it's affecting my spiritual growth. Does that make sense?

Completely, completely. Are you a natural people person?

Um, I am, but it's changing.

What do you mean?

Yeah, so I've always— you put me in the room, by the time we leave, I know everybody. Uh, growing up, I have 500 friends. That's why I used to tell my parents, um, interacting with people now, especially as a pastor, I've learned that I have to have boundaries. So I have this, this, this relational management that I live by, and I have it in the book. Jesus spoke to thousands, sent out 72, selected 12, but was vulnerable with 3. So as a pastor, I think like Sundays, that's thousands. Social media, that's thousands. Ministry serving the city, that's 72. Deacons, leadership, that's 12. But there are certain people— Peter, James, and John, my 3— that I could bleed in front of. I could cry in front of. So when I say it's changed a little bit is I was ignorant of how wounded you could be by treating everybody like the 3 when God has entrusted you to serve and wash the feet of thousands. And so to keep my heart from getting hard or wounded from the betrayals that I've experienced, I don't know if I would say I'm a people person. I would say I'm a people manager. I try to figure out where you fit so that I could continue to serve. Because after I got hurt, I didn't want to deal with nobody anymore. I'm done. I'm good. I'm good. But that wasn't going to, um, have me be an effective minister. And one of the things that the Lord has put in my heart was, you will never be an effective pastor or spiritual doctor if you keep catching the virus of everybody you're treating. I have to build up my spiritual immunity. So that's why I said that.

Okay, why therapy? Like, why is this your natural way of thinking? Have you had tons of it yourself? Did you read a bunch of therapy books? Apart from you were counseling a couple and they had a need, has everything just been because you were trying to serve that need and it's exploded from there? Like, what is the environment or the weather system that has been around you that has kind of produced this ministry for you?

Yeah, it really was my heart. Like, I don't want you to hear good sermons. I don't want you to just take points and not change. I don't want that. Like, I've been surrounded by trained Christians, but not transformed ones. Like, you are trained to say the language, you are trained to say the songs, but you're not transformed. Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind. So what I strive to do is like, all that churchy stuff that's eclipsing real love for Jesus, let's deal with that. And most of it deals with— it starts right here. There's been no transformation here, no healing here, no flooding the word in here. So that's really kind of how it is around me, is I want people to get it. I don't want to just be spending hours of studying and studying. Out of obedience, I do it. However, I do want to know that you are surrendering your life to the Lord and you are changing. And so if this is a means that will help people hear better, so be it. So that's really kind of my heart with it.

But in terms of like the ability with it, so there's a heart with it and then there's a capacity for it because there is, you know, there is a language, there is, of course, the spiritual reality of that, but there is the emotional reality of that. And then you've got people spend their, you know, decades of their life training to talk about therapy. And so in terms of the capacity that you've grown in to have these conversations from a spiritual and biblical perspective, what do you feel has supported you in that?

So I think it's 3 layers to it. I think the first layer is practical education. Being like taking classes of psychology, which I did. Then there is understanding what is a healing perspective that complements scripture versus what's contradictory. And then it's recognizing like, okay, you're a team player. You're not a star player. Okay, so if you ever approach I do have somebody who is battling to a degree that I feel like, hey, I need some assistance. I do have Christian therapists to pass the ball to. Hey, we go here. But for the most part, I don't just— kind of like our upbringing, if we were dealing with grief, somebody would take you to, oh, look how Mary and Martha handled it when Lazarus grieved. No, I actually will study the steps of grief and what phase are you at? Hey, you're probably at anger right now. You're still at denial right now. I think you're at acceptance right now so that you could fully diagnose the person. I think you do have to do your diligence with study. And then I think sometimes, especially pastors have to be careful just because we're pastors does not always equate I'm qualified to give you counseling. I think you have to be aware of yourself and your passion. So I think if you could tackle those three layers, like, hey, have I gotten the skills, education, the degree, the license in this? Is this something that is being forced because I want to go viral? Or is this something I've experienced and I've actually studied techniques and content that complements and cooperates with Scripture that I could extend to my brothers and sisters? Or if I just don't have the skills with this, pass the ball to somebody else. So I think that's kind of like a well-rounded approach of trying to help people.

You mentioned being hurt yourself and you said, you know, you know, you didn't want to deal with anybody. And I think, um, I, I was recently talking to Eric Mason and he mentioned Pastor Jenkins because I said, you know, I've bumped into some things, um, over the years just about the hurt that pastors have. People don't really talk about that. People are coming and leaving your church. When they leave, it's because you didn't do X, Y, and Z and the other, you know. But, or they served and served well and God moved them on. It's a constant receiving and accepting, receiving and accepting, and that can wear on a soul. And so he, uh, he asked Pastor Jenkins, when will I get over this? And Pastor Jenkins was like, never, never. I, I don't think people really realize when someone is in service to others, uh, the way people in full-time ministry are, the wear and tear on the heart. And of course, I don't know what you were referring to, if that was even related to church, but my question is Um, can you describe beyond— you knew God was inviting you to not sit with that— what your process of healing from that looked like? Because I think we also assume that if somebody's in ministry, they serve the Lord, they got to show up on Sunday and give the sermon. We may not see the— we may not see the hurt, see the struggle, and the assumption is they don't. So what did it look like for God to work with you in that?

So let me hit that two-fold. I think that's dangerous. I think it's dangerous for you to get hurt and start a podcast. I think it's dangerous for you to get hurt and use that as sermon content and try to somehow make that correlate to Judas and Jesus. I think that's very lethal, uh, and actually can be poisonous, um, to the body because you're spewing pain. And see, this is why I believe this conversation is so needed, because those of us who are speaking into people can be speaking pain into them from our pain and don't even know it, and using the Bible to do it. So it's, for me, my betrayal happened in 2018. I had a team at the house feeding them. I paid rent for many of them, was there when they gave birth to the children, all the stuff pastors normally do. And they just left. They left. Formed their own, like, posse. They left and was, uh, indirectly saying things about me that people were bringing back to me. I was like, after I didn't pay they rent, after I didn't baptize they child, I was there when they mother died. Oh, that's how people do? I don't want to be no pastor anyway. Bet, Tanisha, it's just me and you. I don't— we don't need nobody. This is why. And so that was, that was my heart, but I was just done with people, especially a brother that I helped get through college, helping pay tuition and all that stuff. And when they turn on you like that, it's like, first, what did I do to deserve that? And then I don't want to interact with any people. But I knew based on my calling that I'm going to be crippled. I might have like, like Mephibosheth type vibes. Like, I'm not going to be able to get to certain places because I'm injured because of who dropped me. And I didn't want to be like that. I didn't want to be like that. That's the last chapter in the book. I don't want to be like this. I don't want to be bitter. I don't want to view every time a person joins a church, "Oh, they're going to leave again. It just takes the right sermon." I don't want to be like that. I want to have a soft, tender heart. So I began to practically pray for everybody who hurt me, mention their name. I pray for blessings on them. And I would do this daily. I didn't mean none of the stuff I was praying about them. I didn't mean any blessings. I didn't want any good thing to happen to them. I was going through the motions. I'm telling the truth. I was going through the motions, but I wanted my heart soft. That was it. I wanted my heart soft because there were people there who wanted to glean from the ministry, but I was not giving them the access to me. Because of what happened. And so, uh, that's when I kind of got the revelation that you're gonna have to heal and get some tough skin. And so that, that model that I, that I gave you, that 1,072-12-3, it's my safeguard. It's my safeguard. I don't have to bleed in front of thousands. I don't. That's Peter, James, and John. So going through that process of identifying Jerry, you misplaced them. You thought that that was Christ-like though, you see. You thought that that was being godly though, but you gave them information that they use as ammunition. If you don't have discernment, you'll be venting to a wolf. You'll be venting to people who are going to stab you in the back. Where, where are they placed? Look at Jesus. He said, I've chosen all of you, but one of you, one of you is a devil. He knew. So it's like, he knew. Mount of Transfiguration. 3 go, 9 y'all stay. So he had wisdom. Garden of Gethsemane, y'all all stay here. Peter, James, and John, come here. Y'all gonna see me cry. Y'all gonna see me pray till like sweat's coming out my brow. He had that wisdom. And when I noticed that and tracked that, that's okay, Jared. Just adapt from the Savior. Know who's your Peter, James, and John. And so that's kind of my method of how I stay whole. And then if I'm hurt for real, I sit down. I'm like, hey, I need 2 or 3 weeks. I ain't preaching, I'm just gleaning.

That's great. How do you know when you're healed?

I go from myself and then I go from definition. When I don't feel the pain when I see them, like, I don't want to get you back. It almost switches from anger to sorrow. Like, I'm not angry at those people. I'm not even bitter. I feel sorry for him. I feel sorry that you have people surrounding you that love you, that given to you, and you're so broken that you don't know how to receive it. Man, I hope they heal. From the definition of that is it's when I could now maybe not do everything that I used to do the same, but I know how to run now and not feel pain. Does that make sense?

Yes.

I could have torn something And it hurt. And I had to go through this whole process. But now when I run, I don't feel it.

So that makes me think about grief because, you know, one of the things people will say about grief is it never really goes away. You kind of just learn how to live with it.

Is—

is— and you said, I don't feel anger, but I feel sorrow. So there's a feeling there. It's just not destructive, would you say? Like, I'm thinking about people who are like, okay, I need to strive for healing. How do I even know if I'm not healed? And if I think I'm doing all these things to be healed, how do I know when I get there? Um, so you don't want to get people back, but is it something that even healed you're, you're carrying with you in a way where it's impactful but not destructively so?

Yeah, it— that is all relative due to the situation. So let's, let's use betrayal. You won't be able to tell that I've been betrayed if you meet me, right? But there's certain people like, man, they're highly offended, they're real distant, they're still wounded. So I, I think it's, it's also tied to how you see individuals. Are they victims, possibly an offender, or do I treat everybody like until further evidence It's neutral, blank canvas. I think that's kind of like when it comes to betrayal. But when it comes to like losing a loved one or things like that, it'll always be with you. Uh, just like you said, I've heard that quote before too. It's like an amputation. You just learn to live with it. Uh, I miss my grandparents. It's something that I wish that my grandparents were still here, but I'm not crying anymore over it. I'm not losing joy in the day because my mind is meditating on it. I could think about my grandmother and my grandfather for an hour and I won't cry. But 4 years ago, I probably would. So it all depends on the situation.

I think a part of the situation is, um, sometimes we can read the room ourselves, and sometimes we need other people around us. And you've talked a couple times about the importance of people around you. I've heard it said in many different ways, God designed us for community, and often the healing that we seek doesn't happen if we seek to do it on our own. Can you talk about the importance of input and feedback and having people around you that have the right and ability to speak into your life and how important that is for the healing process.

So, um, I'm an analogy guy. Uh, I started boxing. I always thought I could fight. Um, I think every man does, right? I started boxing right before the pandemic, and as I was hitting a heavy bag A coach came up to me and said, if we were to spar right now, I'd knock you out. That was kind of aggressive, and it kicked like the— like, you want to go? But then he broke— he broke down. You don't protect your jab. Every single time you jab, you leave your whole left side wide open. I want to teach you how to stand right, because how you're standing right now— and he kind of pushed me and I was falling. He said, all it takes is for somebody to push you off guard and you're off. You got to stand with your feet like this when you jab, keep your hand up so that you can hit your target. And so then it went from an attack, correction, reception. That's the beauty of community. I thought I could do it on my own, but somebody who was professionally training Olympians was like, if you were to go to war, you would lose. And I think that's the beauty of community. You're a lone wolf right now. You're a lone soldier. And if you try to fight right now, you'll lose. And you're already injured. You're fighting out of anger. So you're definitely not going to have any strategy. So the coach was able to give me a strategy, technique, and train me to unlearn street fighting, because there's a difference in street fighting and professional fighting. And I think people who do not do community, you only know how to street fight. That's what you learn from the street. But when you're fighting a spiritual fight, when you're fighting warfare, when you're fighting for your family, when you're fighting for your purity, you need community for that. And that was a coach. So I think from that metaphor, that was a, um, critical step for my life to recognize that community will strengthen what you already have. But let me give you some skill with it. Let me give you some wisdom with it.

We girls just need time. Time to get away, time for a little quiet, time to be still, time to quiet the noise. And this is why I put on any event that I do to give the girls, including me, time. 2026, that time looks like being on a cruise for a long period of time so you can actually inhale long enough to hear the heartbeat of your soul and laugh and have a good time in the sun. I want you to join me on the Sister Circle cruise. It's April 26th through May 3rd, and you can find out more by going to thesistercircle.com/cruise. I hope you make space for you and join me there. I love the concept relational autopsy. Can you explain what that is and why that helps you to stop repeating, uh, toxic cycles.

For sure. So, um, in the book I addressed that relationships don't die from natural causes. Uh, either this was purified, something that the Lord ended, it's done, the season served its purpose, it's over, or it was a homicide. I killed this, they killed this, or we killed this together. And so to do a relational autopsy is really to discern the cause of death, because everybody always thinks everybody else is the counterfeit. Everybody always kind of concludes they're the red flag. What if the biggest red flag is when you can't see if you're one? So the whole point of doing a relational autopsy is recognizing what killed this, what killed the marriage, what killed the relationship, what killed my, um, friendship that I had. Was it me? Was it them? Is this something that the Lord is pruning? You need that so that you can have a perspective on your next. If you don't know why this died, you can keep killing people. If you don't know why this died, you can take your virus to somebody else. Or if you don't know why this died, you'll keep on entertaining a counterfeit who will keep killing things in you. So that's really the whole concept of relational autopsy.

And is a relational autopsy something that you can do by yourself, or does that take us back to community and input?

So it all depends on a person's awareness. If they're a person that could tell when something is off, they might be able to recognize, you know, yeah, I cheated. I was a liar. Um, I was jealous. I was narcissistic. And then they could recognize themselves. Other people who can't tell if they're tone deaf or not, you need somebody to point out, you're standing wrong, bro. You, you're doing this or you're getting jabbed. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I think, you know, one of the things I hear all the time, uh, cause I'm always talking about the importance of community and all the different reasons why that is, um, is people say they struggle to find it. They are wanting it, they understand the importance of it. Maybe they've even tried to initiate it. People don't reciprocate. They invite people to come over, they don't come, or they don't stay, they don't keep coming. And a lot of people, I feel like whether they are healthy or not, but definitely if they're not, they're nursing things and trying to have community for input, for awareness, for safe place, for, for building relationships. And maybe they end up with the 2 or the 3. The big struggle is 'that doesn't work for me,' you know what I mean? I've heard women say, 'Women are difficult,' you know, 'too many catfights.' I've had, uh, you know, I, I— and so when it comes to the part that community plays in the development of our wellness, soulful and full wellness, when someone is struggling with that, um, and they want it for all the right reasons, what counsel would you or do you normally give?

It goes back to that awareness thing because everybody's not off, you know. If I'm talking to— everybody's off. Every church is fake. No community serves you right. Every woman likes to fight. Every woman is catty. So it goes back to that awareness thing. Um, are you aware that community offends you because you're walking around looking at everybody in the lens of offense. So it's not, it's not always, I can't find it. It's, it's gonna make you uncomfortable. And you have an expectation of community. And if it doesn't come at the— come at you the way that you think it should, ah, it's not healthy for me. Maybe it's different for you. It's amazing to me how many people call things toxic and unhealthy And I'm like, this is a question I always ask: is it toxic or did it expose your toxins? See, because there are a lot of sisters I've met, I don't like to sweat, but sweating is releasing toxins. So sometimes if you're in a community and it makes you sweat, I'm uncomfortable. Yeah, but toxins getting out. So I think you just really have to be aware Is it me? Like, is this me that I just don't know how to handle community yet because I'm not healed? Or is it I'm really searching and I haven't discovered it yet? On the other side of that, I think that if it's something that is truly needed for your spiritual growth, the Lord will provide it. I mean, he's not like, oh, you need community, you need to heal, but I'm going to make it hard for you to find it. He will provide our needs. He supplyeth all of our needs. And so I think it's just, it goes back to that awareness piece as well.

But you know, it's a culture. I mean, we just, again, I just, you know, and I'm a Gen Xer, so we're feral and we're just like, what is all of this mental health stuff? But I do think there is a lot of language out there that surrounds mental health and emotional health, healthiness, a lot of therapy. I had an elder in our church tell me one time, he was just talking about one of his kids and he just said, "I just, like, I think I've had a good life and I think we've done okay," he said, "but the amount of therapy my kid needs for all of this stuff," he said, "I'm just kind of overwhelmed with that." But I think we have just generationally speaking, culturally speaking, on social media, all the podcasts, there's a lot of therapy language out there that people start tossing around without actually And we just will label using what you said about toxicity. If I don't like it, it's toxic. The definitions are off. How can I know if I'm being, if I'm drawing healthy boundaries around things that with all of the therapy language that I have, you know, this person is toxic. Just what we have done to put so many things under these humongous banners. And then we quickly apply exit doors. How can we? Be healthier in doing that and not overstretching, over-accommodating, have the pendulum swinging so far that we're not actually developing toughness, resilience, the ability to weather hard things because everything has a label, so I have a backdoor.

This is the irony of this. When I was growing up, people made fun of you. We called it roasting or jabbing or whatever it may be. And my wife and I were talking about this, like, man, people are so soft now. Like, this, this, the stuff that they get so offended by it is so high. So I, I think there is a level, there is a level of hypersensitivity there, um, because the therapy language is, is so common. We could put a label on stuff quick. You're narcissist, you're narcissistic, you're a manipulator, you're an abuser. You're— truthfully, if we just be honest and keep it a buck, everybody has something wrong with them. Everybody has an area where they need to grow. And if you're looking for a perfect church, if you're looking for a perfect man, if you're looking for a perfect woman, you're going to be alone. And you're in denial because you can't even see that you're not perfect. So I, I think it's recognizing— going back to the, the, the toxic and toxins correlation— I'm uncomfortable I'm sweating, but I'm burning calories. You see, look, look at all of it. Don't just— oh, this is uncomfortable, so it's toxic. Oh, this is the devil because it makes me sweat. I'm uncomfortable, I'm sweating, I'm even sore, but I'm getting stronger. And I'm not talking about in a way that's gonna injure you or hurt you hard. I'm using workout Like, this is making you stronger. And if we go back to scripture, there are things that the Lord allowed that right now, oh, that's toxic. Joseph's brothers betrayed him. Oh, that's toxic. Uh, she tried to rape him and took his coat. Oh, that's toxic. Oh, he forgot about him. That's— you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. So I, I think we have to be, we have to be careful of just immediately labeling something difficult, uncomfortable, or different as demonic or demonizing it when we see in scripture that the Lord used affliction to help people get stronger and bring them closer to him. So I think that is— that's the part that's missing, that balance that you were talking about. Is this a Joseph-type teaching? Is this a Job-type season? Or is this something that I produce myself? And if we could be aware— I keep going back to that awareness because I firmly believe if you could trace it, you could unlearn it. If you can't trace it, you cannot learn it. If somebody robs your house today with no mask on, it's easy for you to— it's easier for them to get caught because you could trace them. It's when they're wearing masks that makes it harder for us to identify who burglarized my peace, who burglarized my joy. So yeah, that, that right there is a whole like You gotta have balance with all of it, 'cause you can't be a soft, wimpy Christian.

That's good. So the work that you're doing and that you have the team doing on Redefined TV, y'all can check it out on YouTube. You can just put it right after the address, be redefined. But is that a part of the work of helping me trace it? Like, this is what this looks like, this is how this presents, this is how you can see that. Is the goal to help people trace? Like, if you had to sum up The goal of the work that you do, particularly on the Therapy Thursdays, the goal would be to—

the goal is for you to heal so that you could be the man or the woman of God that you've been called to be, and you're not allowing your yesterdays to eclipse what God wants to do today and tomorrow, and so that you leave a legacy of healing versus trauma. That's, that's Therapy Thursday. Now let's use the word of God to complement or to just show you this was already in the Bible, period. And we just thought of a different term for it, but the Bible already had this centuries ago and we just named it something different. Oh, I'm detoxing. Scripture's been talking about fasting for years. So it's like, so like, let's just— certain times we'll use cultural language, but that's, that's, that's the Bible all day. Karma, that's the sowing and reaping. That's the Bible. So I, I, I, I don't always strive to um, make something fit, because I think that's how you get eisegesis, right?

Right.

What the word of God says, this medicates that. Now, Jerry, put it in a way where somebody who's wounded can hear you. That's Therapy Thursday.

That's good. I know that you talked about, um, this chapter, Your Mind Is Too Crowded. You said the only things you can control in the healing process are your effort and your attitude. And this is this idea of also renewing your mind. And we can quote that scripture. You also said in the same section, healing your mind requires clearing the clutter inside it. Can you walk me through? Because if I'm trying to be— I want to lean in, I want to lean into the word and I want to lean into the practical application of the word, but I come sometimes with a lack of ability to see my own awareness. I come not knowing that there were places that I've been robbed or that I've been impacted or hurt, and I can't even identify them because the masks are on. Like, I'm here kind of feeling my way in around in a room, knowing that there's got to be something better. But a big part of that is me renewing my mind. Practically speaking, starting with this concept, somebody says, "Okay, well, what does that look like I'm supposed to do? What am I supposed to do?" I mean, I can— you know, watch the videos on the YouTube channel and listen to the Therapy Thursdays, watch that. I can come to church, I'm reading my Bible, but if I'm actively participating in renewing my mind, what am I supposed to be doing?

So I'm gonna give you a perfect correlation of how this therapy and theology works, okay? So you, you, you want to renew your mind, what are your meditations? Let's focus there because your feelings are children and your parents are thoughts. Whatever you're thinking, you're gonna feel. That's why if I ask you, think about some day that you had a great time, you had a lot of fun, what were you thinking about? You'll probably struggle to tell me because when you're having a great time, you're not thinking as much. So understanding that a lot of this is here, and in that chapter I said it's possible that a word from God has to stand in the long line of your overthinking. So it's not that God isn't speaking, it's just behind all of this other stuff. Do you want to actually get the word up front where it's not standing in a long line? So now we're gonna have to start getting things out of line, all right? So when you are overthinking and processing and thinking of scenarios or what could happen if I do this or catastrophizing, your body's releasing cortisol. That's a stress hormone. So now your body has this alarm What's going on? What's going on? What's going on? And you want that to stop. So then scripture tells us whatever is true, whatever is just, whatever is noble, whatever is of good report— gives us a long list. Think slash meditate on these things. So let's start thinking of good reports. Write that down. What's true? Write that down. Meditate on that when those thoughts start coming up, because you have your Automatic thoughts, filtered thoughts, and core beliefs. If you don't have a core belief, when that automatic thought comes— I'm worthless— you can't filter it. So meditating on whatever's true, whatever is just, whatever is noble, those are your core beliefs. So when that automatic thought comes, you're not good enough, I can filter that with the word of God. I just showed you a whole process of how to— like, that's kind of how Therapy Thursday is. So I'm using practical therapy tactics with the word of God to show you how you could begin the journey of renewing your mind.

So good. Um, I love the illustration. I was thinking, this is why I love, and I know a lot of people love, uh, the movie Inside Out. They had Inside Out, the first one and the second one. Did you watch those?

Yes, second one had me crying. I know, I know.

Uh, you know, and the illustrations are helpful. We need, we need to see it. And especially with all this language out there that may not even have accurate meanings, being able to see it is important. Last question, you just said when you were talking you want to, you want to meditate on this, or you need to think about this, write it down. And you, you kind of mentioned writing it down. I'm a big proponent of writing things down because I think getting it out of your head and on paper kind of solidifies it, helps you to identify it. Uh, I'd love for you to talk about that, the importance of putting things on paper and, and why that matters in the, the development of your spiritual, mental, and emotional well-being.

It's just, it's the connection, writing it down, making it plain. So if, if I'm, if I'm battling with thinking the think the worst about me. And I write down, "What they think about me is not a receipt of my value. My value is in Christ." And then I come in the room and they look at me kind of funny. I could like, almost like my photographic memory will remember on my notes, my value is in Christ, not what they think about me. So I use, I call them Mark the Moments. I have a whole list in my phone. When I feel anxiety try to rise up, I go to my Mark the Moments and I go over— I'm telling you the honest to God truth. I will go over moments I marked to help me not allow anxiety at the microphone of my soul right now. Remember last time you felt like this? Just look, write it down. And I think when you write down God's faithfulness or write down your goals, it helps you track where you're going versus what's happening in the moment. So I'm a huge, huge advocate for writing stuff down— dreams down, things that the Lord has told you down, blessings that's happened. I write them down. Doctor said my son may not make it. He's 2 years old now. I wrote that down. So the next time they said, hey, we don't know if we're gonna get this bill or not, I go back and I remember when God was faithful then.

So yeah, you don't get me a whole nother tangent, but yeah, no, that, that's so great. I was in college, 19-year-old pregnant girl, writing down 'Cause everybody's looking at me, everybody has thoughts about me. Just trying to be able to hold my head up and just kept writing down these scriptures. I still have it folded up, beaten up piece of paper that I would put in my purse or my pocket and pull it out to read it when I needed to remember whose I was regardless of what was happening in my life. And writing those scriptures down, those affirmations down, the things that I know God was thinking about me kept me going. It kept me going. But if you got to go to the bottom of the pool every time and come up with new stuff, that's just a lot of extra work. Like, write it down so you can just pick up where you left off. This has been so great. I'm so honored that I got a chance to talk to you one-on-one for the first time. You know, you're Jonathan's friend, but you're our friend, my friend too. And so the ability to just talk with you again, congratulations on the release of your new book, Heart Rehab: Finding the You God Created You to Be. Many blessings to you on your continued journey of sharing the gospel, but also the good news of being emotionally and mentally and spiritually in a good place. Very grateful to you, and it's been my pleasure to host you today.

Well, thank you so much.