Gay Girl, Good God with Jackie Hill Perry

And, um, welcome to another Sister Circle Live with me chatting with friends that are not in person. So welcome and thanks for joining me. I'm here with Miss Jackie Hill Perry. Many of you will already know who she is. If you don't, you're in for a treat. Now listen, me and Jackie have been here trying to get things right. She got babies crying in the background. I'm sitting here trying to figure out why the setting sun is messing up my lighting situation. But y'all, we are here. Kids are threatened to watch Boomerang, not interrupt, or at football practice. You were in your car, you changed locations.

So what I did, where is the sun? The sun is going down and I knew my melanin wasn't gonna be able to stand, stand up to that kind of assault.

Okay, so y'all hear babies crying in the background. This is it. Yeah, life. Okay, so we are excited to be with you. I've had, um, Jackie on with me before on the podcast, and so I'll be sure to put that in the notes for this video after we're done. So if you didn't listen to that podcast, then you can catch our conversation, uh, the conversation that we had before there. So since that conversation, um, Jackie, you've released a, a book. Yes, Gay Girl Good God, which I told you when I saw it, I was just like, go title.

I had to pray they was gonna let that one go.

Listen, did anybody— did you have any back anything about that title?

No, no, it was just a lot of fears. It was, it was, it was some like, all right. And so they had to go, you know, B&H had to go and check with their, their folks to see if it was good to go. And I was just praying that they, they they would see the heart and the marketing behind it.

Listen, so this was your idea. Like, this is your title that came from your gut.

Yeah, just randomly.

It just came to you because sometimes it works like that.

Yeah, so because we was in the titling meeting and they were coming up with— and I love the team. No title— well, no, no idea is a bad idea. Some of the titles just were bad, you know, and they weren't fitting to me. It sounded like devotionals. You know.

And you're not— you don't read like a devotion. There's nothing—

I don't like a devotion. Yeah, I didn't want no flowers on my cover with coffee cups.

You didn't want pink or purple either, did you?

I sure didn't.

No, I'm with you on that. Okay, so I, you know, I asked you so many, um, questions that were, you know, kind of out of my own curiosity or what I thought people were asking about on the podcast, but I kind of want to take a little bit of a different angle before we swing back around to some specifics about your journey and the book. So I'm just, I'm just going to take a little bit of an angle. First of all, you are a tell-it-like-it-is kind of person, um, and I mean, you, you're good to give a clap back. I saw you give a clap back the other day on, um, Twitter.

What'd I say?

I don't know what they said, but you were just— it was maybe, it was like they were gonna unfollow, maybe. Oh yeah, okay, see you later. Like, you know, glory be to God. Bless you.

I love you.

Okay, so here's what I want to ask you about that, because even the title, uh, Gay Girl Good God, kind of is you in the sense that you're like, I just want to— this is what it is, this is what it is, it's my journey. But that's just how you are, period, right? Speaking, when you're, um, chatting online, when you're giving an occasional clapback, um, you're just like, you're kind but, but clear. And so one of the things that I think makes you unique, um, which if I can just say so, which is one of the reasons why I think you're a little on fire, just in— you've been on fire even before the book came out. People are attracted to real, people are attracted to authentic, and people are attracted to straight talk. But we live in a very carefully bred Christian— we got to be careful. Don't want to offend kind of culture.

Yeah.

Um, how have you found it difficult or not at all difficult to maintain you in a scene of, you know, just in a Christian environment where everybody's trying to be so care— everybody's trying to be careful?

Yeah.

Talk to me about that.

That's a great question. Um, I don't know. I, I, I, I, I think I try to— so when I first got saved, I was very much zealous and with not an ounce of wisdom, and just learned— I thought that my zeal and my truth, I thought it was love, irregardless of how it was presented or how it was said. And so I think as I've grown and just kind of been around people, uh, older than me in the faith, in ministry, I've learned how to be honest and truthful while at the same time being very gracious and careful because I know language really does matter. And so I guess I say all that to say I think I've learned how to flesh stuff out through the lens of love. You know, am I saying what I'm saying out of love, out of mercy, am I— have I thought through through how it could be perceived. Because even that, I've learned so much through Twitter and social media and just being on stages that you could say something that you genuinely think is okay and people will come back and they've heard it a completely different way. And so I've learned to—

They heard the clip.

Huh?

They heard the clip.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's like, for some people, it's just not their fault. That's just how they heard it. And so for me, I'm always considering so many different angles before I say anything. Um, so yeah, but at the same time, it's like I don't, I don't have time to not be myself, if that makes sense. And that's not to say I'm in the flesh. I'm saying as far as my personality is concerned, if it's funny, I'ma say it, you know. If it's true, I'ma say it. If it's a lot of stuff I don't say because I, I have a strong, strong spirit of sarcasm. That will just not be all right, you know. So I don't know, I don't even know if that answers your question, but just fleshing it all out through, through love and stuff like that, I think that is the best way to be honest and careful in myself all at the same time.

Okay, so you just said something I think is important. You said, um, you, you've learned how to be yourself, not in the flesh, but yourself. We're trying to explain that to somebody What's the, what's the difference? Yeah, well, I think the flesh and themselves confused.

Yeah, because the flesh Jackie doesn't care what anybody has to say. The flesh Jackie is just gonna say what she feels. This, how the spirit works through Jackie is, no, let's, let's dissect what you want to say. So let's say I'm, I wanna, I wanna tell, um For example, I had a guy on Twitter the other day who responded to a post I made about Tamar being raped by her brother. And what he said I thought was very offensive. What Jackie wants to say is, "You trippin', you bogus." He was trippin' and he was being bogus. But instead of that, I was like, "No, love will say, 'Do you think that that was the most helpful thing that you could present in light of this conversation?'" You get what I'm saying? And so I'm still honest, and I've still went to the heart of the issue, which is he's saying something that he shouldn't be saying. But I've thought about him before I responded out of the flesh. And so that's still me. I'm still being honest, but I thought about him in my honesty. And I think that's what love does.

That's what love does. I was just with Bob Goff when that hit me. Okay, so I think that one of the things I've been talking about is being comfortable in your own skin. And I want to ask you this because I think this will segue into some of the specifics about your story in your book. Um, you are a person, period. Christian. Yeah, non-Christian. It's very obvious that you're a girl who is com— you just— I'm good with, with me. Not that there has— not that there have never been insecurities, never been things that you've wrestled with, but You're pretty comfortable, as comfortable in your skin goes. Why do you think that is? Is it just strictly your personality? Is it something about your upbringing? Is it something about your experience? Because again, I think this goes back to why people want to hear what you have to say. Yeah, they know when you speak, they're getting you. Why do you think that is?

I think it's a really a collaboration of a lot of things. I think genetics. I think if you met my mother, my mother is the most— she, she is the most "it is what it is" woman that you will ever meet in your life. Um, and so I think that's what I observed my life, my whole life, was a woman who was very much herself, um, and very much unapologetic about it. I also— but I also think a lot of that has come with being secure or becoming more secure in what— how God has made me and what God has called me to do. Because in high school and middle school, I was bullied, I was talked about, I was very insecure, full of anxiety, extremely introverted, very— not shy per se, but super emotional, super sensitive. And so who I am now really doesn't make any sense to who I was, who I used to be. But I think as I've grown, it's just like, no, like, Lord, you gave me this voice, you gave me these weird quirks, you gave me, um, this mind that thinks about things differently, and I shouldn't be afraid to, to walk in that and, and, and be that way. Um, and I'm not old—

well, yeah, that gets weird when you say I'm still bitter about you calling me mother in the DMs, by the way, just FYI. Y'all, you are. DM, she called me mother.

I was like, talking to mothers. Are mothers in the church? Historically, they're given to honor.

Whatever. That did not feel honoring. That felt like you were calling me old. That's what it felt like. So, baby, I'm sorry to where I can receive that, but okay. I was like, wait a minute, I'll just stick to sis.

I do sis. Okay, but I'm only— I'm 29, so I'm still very young.

But as I—

as I'm growing, um, I just— I don't know, I, I think that's just a part of maturity. Um, and so when I'm 50, I, I'm excited to see how much more comfortable I'll be.

That's good. That's good stuff. Okay, so turning this corner to talk about your story, um, I One of the main— and I know there's no blanket answer for this, I want your answer— but one of the main questions that a lot of people in the Christian faith— let's just— and I'm, I'm saying this because this is in my world, this is what I hear people talking about, okay? So if, if you're going to say, uh, if you're going to make the statement of your belief that, um, you know, that God created Adam and Eve and, you know, all the things people say and You have to deal with the reality that there are people that, whether you call it gender confusion, whether you call it, um, you know, just a, a different identity, whether there's been a struggle their whole lives, you have to admit that there is a struggle for people, whether they've, um, you know, adopted a lifestyle, uh, you know, change the way they identify for other people, what— whatever it looks like, there is, there is something that's going on on the inside. And you just mentioned bullying, if you were going to say in bullet point form what you think were things that lined up in your past, in your history, on the inside or outside of you that led you to identify as a gay woman, what would you say those things are? And again, I want to state this is Jackie talking about Jackie, y'all. This is not Free this whole world, but just for you.

Yeah, definitely not a generalization or something to be applied to everybody. I think first sin, uh, sexual abuse, fatherlessness, um, yeah, confusion, identity. I, I think those would be some things that I would, I would think.

Yeah, well, let me pick on fatherlessness for a second. Um, if somebody's a believer, um, and on— honestly, uh, where we are right now, depending on where they, where they are in their belief as a believer. But, um, so let's just, let's just, let's just make sin an assumption, okay? Um, but you mentioned fatherlessness. I think that was the third thing that you mentioned. Talk about why fatherlessness would be a contributing factor in your situation?

Yeah, I think for me personally, it— I think the fatherlessness and the abuse honestly kind of go hand in hand. Because, uh, one thing my counselor walked me through is we were talking about, um, just my relationship with my dad and, you know, the abuse and all that type of stuff. And she was like, do you remember your dad? Do you remember the first time? Or do you remember your father hugging you when you were 5? 6, kissing you, telling you I love you. I was like, nah, I don't, I don't remember that at all. And she was like, but you remember the abuse when you were 5 or 6? I said, yeah. She was like, so it seems as if the first time you remember being, uh, touched by a man was when he was abusing you. And so I think in light of when you connect that also to the absence of my dad and what felt like the lack of protection and safety that, that existed, while at the same time I have a mother who is very present, very comforting, very nurturing, it can— I think it can formulate in my mind that men are not safe but women are, you know. And I think that latches on to the pre-existing sin that already is there.

So I know that fatherlessness is a topic that, you know, uh, many, many have broached to give a foundation for the explanation of many issues, um, in our, in our culture. What— and when people talk about God as a father, you know, this song, He's a Good, Good Father.

Yeah.

You know, I've had women say to me, or people say to me, it's really hard to sing that song because I want to believe that he is, but good and father don't go together for me. Um, what has been some practical and tangible Um, what are some practical and tangible thoughts that you can share for how you have been able to embrace God as a good father when it wasn't necessarily the case with your earthly father?

Yeah, um, to me, I've always known that they weren't the same, um, that God wasn't created, so he wasn't born, uh, and Jesus was born obviously, but he was still eternal, um, and pre-existent. And so he didn't even come into the earth with the same issues that my dad had, you know what I'm saying? And so there's a sense of me understanding that who God is is not to be compared to what my father was, um, that God really is all that he— if he is holy, then the way he loves me has to be the most perfect kind of love that exists. And if he is holy, then he can't lie to me. And if he is holy, then he's going to be very much consistent and faithful and steadfast. And so I guess for me it's always been, I just have to take God's word for it, and I have to— I can't project onto God, what other people have done. I just have to allow God to say, no, this is who I am, and this is what is to be believed. And I know for many that's a very difficult thing, but I think faith is hard, um, and I don't think anybody could ever get to a point where they're like, I believe everything about God. But I do think there's a kind of, um, willingness to believe even if it doesn't feel true, you know, that we have to have.

When you say faith is hard, so you're, you know, and I've got a couple of things I want to ask you about on this topic. You're, you know, you talk about, um, not being saved, getting saved, uh, not just being saved but actually being discipled. Yeah, I love how you said in our last conversation that a lot of people want mentors or they want to be discipled, but they want to pick what the person who disciples them, what they look like. They may be missing out on what God is trying to give them because the picture of that person may not look like what they have in their head. So you went through this process not only of shifting, um, your lifestyle but shifting your walk with the Lord. So there is a before Jesus Jackie, and then there's an after Jesus Jackie, and a becoming with Jesus Jackie.

Amen.

But a lot of people don't have that story. There are a lot of people that, um, would agree with you that their, um, lifestyle, homosexuality, is sin, but as after Jesus it's still a struggle. They're still in it. And so when they, they hear your story, they're thinking, okay, that's great, so Jesus came in and stuff changed. Well, Jesus is in me. It's something I want victory over, victory in, and it's not happening. And, and really, this is a bigger thing because I think it doesn't matter what the issue is. I think one of— I remember being in a Christian school and I would always hear the major stories, you know, it was like it was rough and da da da, and then Jesus came in and voilà, you know. Yeah, I think so, you know. I got saved about 30 times because I had to make sure it took all the other times. So, so what do you say to people who that's not their story? They don't have this, you know, this mark, this, you know, before Christ, after, you know, ADBC kind of situation. Um, you know, they're working through it. What is your encouragement to them?

Well, one, I would, I would, I would tell them to not to assume that there is no struggle, not to assume that post-Jesus, the old Jackie ain't still popping up every day. You know, um, and so I just, I just wouldn't assume that, um, because that's just not true. Um, is there victory over sin? Absolutely. But that victory is hard. And for there to be some type of victory, that means there got to be some type of fight. And so that means I'm fighting constantly in many ways. Um, so there's that. I think too, I would, I would want them to ask themselves, why isn't there victory? Because there might be many reasons. Is there unbelief? Is there no community? Is there a lack of discipleship? Is there a lack of time with God? Does there need to be some fasting that needs to happen? Does there need to be just a, a commitment to believe that God is all that he says he is and really believe that the resurrection is that powerful? Um, I think there's a lot of questions that somebody has to ask themselves, um, but I think the best thing also is to ask them Ask yourself that question within other people that know you and love you, because we don't even know why we tripping half of the time. But we have friends or pastors or elders or leaders that will be able to pinpoint and identify. It's like, you might just be burnt out. That's why you ain't got no victory. You know, you're a ministry doing, doing, doing, doing, doing, but you have no time with the Lord to even pour into you. So that, that's why you're struggling and why you falling like you crazy. So I think there's a lot.

There's a lot. Okay, I watched, and I wish I knew the name of it. As you're talking, it's coming to me. This wasn't a planned question, but it was a, it was a documentary.

The Heart of Man? No, no, look at me.

I don't know. I know, but that's good. The Heart of Man, really good. Okay, um, no, no, no, it was a documentary, but the, but one of the statements was made, a person who you know, had a couple of attempts at suicide and, um, uh, just really, really struggling with their belief in God and what they felt like that belief in God demanded in terms of a shift in their lifestyle. He just said, I don't know how else to pray the gay away, and I've done all the things. So, right, all the things you just listed I'm doing the fasting, I'm trying to— I'm doing all these things, and it's just— and that's, you know, honestly, I mean, just being honest, for me, um, one of the struggles that I have, um, in this climate where this is the discussion and honestly a debate amongst Christians in terms of what the Bible says and what it means, my heart, you know, I'm just being real, my heart says it hurts me to think about people for whatever reason, you know, this is just one of many reasons. Yeah, let me back away from this topic for a minute. If a woman tells me that she's, um, in a marriage and it's— she's miserable, and, you know, she believes in biblical reasons for divorce, and, and, you know, he hasn't cheated on her, there's, there's no abuse to speak of, it's just— he's just mean, and she's just miserable. It's just miserable. It's really hard for me to look her straight in the face um, when, when it's— when there is a painful situation, right? Um, and, and offer truth, because my heart— I want to fix it, you understand what I'm saying? And I want, I want you to feel better. So that's to take that and sit that on top of the issue of homosexuality. When someone has said that, and I'm sure you've heard that, there's a genuine desire, and they've done the things, and they're like, it's not it's not taken. Like, I'm doing the things. What, what are you then saying to them?

Well, one, uh, the whole idea of praying the gay away is, is, is in essence you're saying, God, please remove my capacity for temptation, take away the flesh. I think when we think— when we look at Jesus, Jesus was God in the flesh. Yet Jesus lived 33 years of his life being tempted, yet without sin. And so the prayer has to be different. I don't think the prayer should be, God, take the gay away, or God, please don't allow me to be tempted, but rather, God, please give me the power to endure this. Please give me the power to be holy. Please give me the power to flee sexual immorality. Please give me the power to take up my cross. Daily. I think I talk about this in my book, how we look at Jesus's command to take up our cross daily, and we forget, one, that the crucifixion was long. And so I think we separate the fact that God is saying, no, you got to do this every day. So there's something that we have to die to every day, and that even on the cross, it took him a minute before he died. And so how much more so will it take us a minute sometimes to feel victory or to see victory in our lives. And so the prayers, they just have to be— they have to change. It can't be that. It can't be even— uh, I'm sorry for rambling, but there was this, this guy I saw, and he left his wife because for 23 years he, um, he I guess was trying to be heterosexual, saw that it didn't work, if you will, um, and said, you know what, I'm just gonna be out here gay. That was what he, what he believed. And my thought, what I thought to myself is, I wonder if for 23 years he was trying to be straight instead of trying to love God. That's the— that's a— those are two different things. Um, because for some of us, there is not a legitimate attraction for the opposite sex, and I think that is okay. Trying to be married to be straight is not going to make you right with God, nor is it going to change your heart. What changes our heart is faith. I didn't say change our orientation, nor did I say change our attractions. But changing how we live happens when we believe that God is able to do exceedingly and abundantly above. And so you might very well be tempted for the rest of your life, but is God not able to help you endure that? Absolutely.

So, so, so one other question I'm asking, you know, a little beyond you, but I, I appreciate, you know, as I've said before, you just tell it like it is. And there are not a lot of people— let's mean, let's be honest, there are not a lot of people who have been willing to be honest enough about their own story, where people who really want to know, really want to understand, can ask. You know what I mean? It's just like, um, okay, so I've had someone say to me, but this is so much different because if I'm going to love God by being faithful in this area— because if there's a, like you said, there's a same-sex attraction, it is no different than You know, me and, uh, dark chocolate almonds, always got some in my fridge, always on. Okay, it's always okay, that's my thing. All right, and in addition to some other things. Okay, but, um, you know, his statement to me was, um, he said, but yes, if you say I'm gonna live a pure life and, uh, if that means I have to be single forever, then so be it. You still have the possibility of marriage. There's still hope for something. If I'm not attracted to someone of the opposite sex, I'm just not— like, not like I'm attracted to someone of the same sex, I'm not attracted at all to somebody of the opposite sex, then I basically am by myself forever. So where is the— if that is the story of a gay girl, where's the good God in that? I mean, that's the— yeah.

And, and, and I, I think that concern is so real, um, and I empathize deeply with it, or, um, because I can see how that can be heartbreaking. I see how that could be frustrating, um, and also I, I can, I can only empathize with it to a degree because obviously that's not the circumstance that I'm in, saying that I'm married and do have an attraction for my husband. And so I guess Sam Alberry, uh, and Christopher Yuan, I feel like they speak to this topic so much better than I can because it's something they live, being two men who are same-sex attracted and feel as if they are called to celibacy. And one thing Sam, uh, hits on a lot is that we, we in many ways in our culture have assumed that intimacy can only happen through, um, sexual relationships. And I don't mean sexual as in having sex, but intimate— I love you, you love me, let's hug, let's get married. We, we've centered intimacy around that when all that isn't just the kind of intimacy or community that God has called us to engage in. And so it sounds stupid, it sounds— it sounds— what's the word— foolish to say that no, we do have relationships and we do They may not be in our bed, but they are in our churches, they are in our families, they are in our friendships. And are they as deep as male and female or as a husband and wife? No, they're not. But can they sustain us? I do believe that they can. Um, will they sustain us as deeply as we prefer? No. But I think that's what heaven is for. Heaven is the primary place where we will be satisfied to the fullest. Um, and so until then, I think we do have a burden, um, and I think they do have a burden to carry, um, but God is able to, to help. So that's tough, it's difficult, but I think Sam Alberry and Christopher Yuan, they, they have a lot of resources about that.

Okay, I'll try to remember to put that in the notes too. Yeah, um, those of you who are here— did your husband just say be quiet?

He did, he sure did. Listen, hey Preston, you on YouTube, y'all.

Y'all need to understand, I just, you know, it— and I'm sure you get the whole, uh, thing about ministry and being on a stage and having a mic and this idea that it's this glamorous whatever.

Yeah.

And then you got kids in the background, you like, be quiet, be quiet.

They crying at the same time. I don't know if you can hear it.

I can hear him like faintly. I mean, it's not okay.

Yeah, it's both of them.

It's reality. Okay. So those of you who are watching, I do want you to know that I'm looking down every now and then because I'm looking at your comments. And if you have specific questions that you want me to ask Jackie, and if it fits in with where we are and what we're talking about, feel free, feel free to ask, feel free to ask. So I see your comments and I'm glad you're tracking along with our conversation. But listen, I want to make sure that if you have a question, you get it, you get it answered. Okay, so one of the things that I saw, and I don't remember where this was, I'm assuming maybe Instagram. So if somebody wants to figure out what I'm talking about, they can go back and look. But you were sitting across the table from a lady who has a decent platform who I was surprised, to be honest, because we often want to assume that we know who we can connect with and often that we connect with. Like us, um, you know, just look like we could hang out. And, um, you and— I mean, y'all are both beautiful, but you have two different expressions of, you know, hair and clothes and all that kind of stuff. So it made me think of this, um, when it comes to your journey as a woman, okay, your woman as a gay girl, your, your, your life as a woman, as a married woman, I mean, just all, all that in between. Have you had any struggle at all in your, uh, the choice in how you represent yourself, how you dress, how you wear your hair, and that being feminine or not feminine? Has that ever been a struggle at all? Because I know that that's one of the things that sometimes that I— and let me just say this, I have a friend, a very good friend, who just a couple days ago said to me she was so bothered that somebody at work walked up to her and said— I don't know what, how the conversation led up to it, but they said 'Girl, please, I thought you were— I thought you were gay.' She was offended, but it's her dress, it's, you know, and she's a real hip kind of person. But she was like, it was like they were accusing me of living a sinful lifestyle. I don't— I don't want to leave people that way, but why can't I be me?

Yeah.

So is that for you? And what—

it used to be, it used to be when I— when I first got saved, um, I just went extreme. I stopped I was wearing eyelashes, they were just mighty heavy on my lids, uh, lip gloss, nails, uh, just all types of things that didn't even feel comfortable. But it was me trying to fit into this mold of what I thought femininity and womanhood was. Um, but it, it was as I— I don't know what happened, it might be age, I don't know what happened, but I got to point where I— it might just come with me reading the Bible and seeing that these, these things that we call feminine a lot of times, or, or womanly, are cultural. We're saying that nails is what makes a woman a woman, or tight jeans, or wearing dresses often, or having makeup on your face. Is that really how we define womanhood? As if Eve wasn't called woman before she ever behaved like one? And so obviously my woman, or my version of woman, can't be defined, or shouldn't be defined by these things, but rather it's what God made me to be, it's what I am biologically, it's what I am emotionally, it's what I am mentally. That's what makes me a woman. Now I think the expression of that, should there be some type of clarity? Yes, I do believe that there are some ways that aren't necessarily sinful as it relates to what you wear, But I think there are some ways where if I am hiding who God has made me to be, then I need to dig into that. You know, if I'm walking around with my chest flattened, or if I'm sagging my pants, or sitting and behaving in certain ways, I'm not saying you're in sin, but I am saying, yeah, you should flesh that out and figure out the why. But to say that I have to wear dresses to be a woman, I think that's culture and not Christ.

So, okay, good, because yoga pants where it's at for me, for real.

They're great. And Adidas pants, I love them.

Okay, someone said, um, how long did it take you to, uh, to forgive your father? And just the other day, um, I had a whole, um, I jump on Instagram every now and then and do lives where I just ask a question for the night and sit there and chat. Being the big sister, not the mentor, not the mother, but the big sister. And, um, one of the things was forgiveness. And people really struggle to understand that forgiveness is not a feeling. But when I— when the feeling comes, what am I supposed to do with that?

Yeah.

So I do want you to answer the question, like, you know, what did forgiveness look like for you, your father? But also, um, what does it look like to forgive? Beyond the words, I forgive you. What does that mean? You do, especially if the feeling is still there.

You are such a good interviewer person. You should do this a lot.

I'm trying.

I think you do. But you need to be on—

I can only wrangle the kids to watch Boomerang, though, for so long. That's the problem.

You need to get paid for this, Chrystal Hurst. I'm trying to tell you, people will watch. We gonna pray. Um, I think, I think for me, forgiveness— this is for me personally— forgiveness has always looked like mercy. And I think when it came to my dad, I think when I became— so one, I think it's— it was easier for me to forgive him because he's gone. I, I think if he was still alive, my question— my answer might be the same, but I think it would be a lot different.

I think it would be because a lot of people struggle more when the person's dead, really, because there's no closure. They're like, they didn't get to—

like, yeah, I could see that. I think for me it's like, you can't— you, you gone and you can't hurt me anymore. And so to continue to hold on to it, it, it doesn't— it doesn't, in my mind, doesn't make sense. Uh, but I— so I think if he was alive, it would be a continual act of forgiving him because I, I I think he probably would have continued to behave the same way. But I think when I became a believer and I started to understand sin and trauma and just all that type of stuff, it— I felt like God was trying to show me, even though his— the way he loved me didn't feel like love, I really think he was doing the best that he could do, even though it sucked, even though it was hurtful and harmful and traumatic. I don't think he knew how not to love me that way. And so it felt— it, to me, it was like God was showing me that man was sinful. He was selfish, in many ways narcissistic. Um, he even struggled with depression and being bipolar. And so when I consider all of that, I feel a mercy because I see that he couldn't even help it. You get what I'm saying? And so I think for me it's, you just, you didn't know how not to be in the flesh. You didn't know how not to serve me. You didn't know how not to, to, to, to be how you were. And so I just, I had to chunk it up to his nature and, and all of that. And so I think some people might feel, well, I'm giving them a pass. You're right, you're right. And I, I think, I think, I think with Christ, it's not that he get— he didn't give— it's not that he gave us a free pass. He obviously paid the penalty. But in a sense, that's your nature. But I'm gonna be merciful anyway. I'ma forgive you even though I know you ain't good biblically. You, you have offended me, you have hurt me, you have broken promises, you have been inconsistent, but I am going to be kind and merciful and love you anyway. And so I think forgiveness is that. It's choice to be merciful. And it's hard though.

Yeah, it is hard. Okay, so, so it's so interesting what you're saying because in our current climate there are some things happening, and I don't know when people are going to watch this YouTube video, but I'll just say there's some things happening where what you just said to somebody is rubbing them the wrong way. Because all they heard you just say is that we just have to, like, we just have to say, well, it's their nature. So that's not what you're saying. So I want to clarify the difference between what you're saying, which is a choice to release someone from a debt they owe you that actually they cannot pay. Um, but that is, that is not the same as what may be rubbing someone the same way, which is people shouldn't be held accountable. Oh, for their actions?

Definitely not. Yeah, that's definitely not what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

No, no, go ahead.

Yeah, I think so. For people that are alive that I've had to forgive, so much of the forgiveness is— so it's weird, it— there has to be a conversation because I'm not going to forgive you. I'm not gonna say that. I'm going to forgive you because I've been commanded to, even if you don't change. But I think it's helpful for me to still discuss what has happened. As long as it depends on me, be at peace with all men. And so, hey, you hurt me. Um, I didn't like the way you said this. You've been doing this for the last decade, and I don't, I don't know what's up. Like, I think from my own spiritual health and heart and to get rid of bitterness, I gotta get that out. I gotta say, this is what you've done. Um, but I don't— I'm not— I can't hinge my forgiveness on their response, because if that happens, yeah, I'm never gonna forgive them.

You're never free.

No, I'm all— I have people in my life that have not changed after several conversations. And so for me, it's like, I'ma just obey God. At the end of the day. I can't wait on you to change. I can't wait on you to be more loving. I can't wait on you to stop being selfish. I'ma obey God and I'ma trust him with your heart, and that's that.

That's good.

So I let them know and I let them go.

I want to just let you do what you do for just a second. I'm going to ask you a question that I know you could just go on and on and on for a minute. I just want you to know, when you apologize just a second ago for rambling, like, this is around Okay, okay. God is good. You said gay girl, good God. He is good because—

because he is by nature. So I think intrinsically he's good, as in pure, holy, righteous. Um, he is not evil. Not able to sin. So that— but he's good and does good. And so he creates us in his image, and then we sin against him, and he has the audacity to say, well, you know what, I still love you, and I'm still going to send my son Christ Jesus to die for you. Because I mean, we could say, does God provide? Yeah, I'm— he's good because I ate today, I had some coffee. He's good because I can see he's good, because I have two children that are alive and well. He's good because I have, uh, you know, breath in my body, as the Saints say. But even if I didn't have all that, he would still be good. But I think the highest good that God has done for us is to forgive us and to give us his son so that we could live eternally with him when we don't deserve it. I don't know how much gooder That ain't a word, but it is today. I don't know how much gooder he can get, uh, when I consider that.

And so when you talk about him being good and he's good to you— yeah, uh, one of the things that I hear a lot of people talking about is the balance between receiving God's forgiveness and not feeling so low about yourself because you needed this good God to swoop in and save you from being such a bad person. Feeling okay about yourself. Not okay because you're righteous, but okay because you're loved and you're valued because he says so. Like, being able to accept his goodness and accept his forgiveness without that meaning that you have no confidence. Or, you know, it's kind of what I was saying earlier, like, you are who you are, and there's a, there's a, there's a confidence about you. And you don't walk around with your head held low like, God had to forgive me. And I'm— and a lot of people, and a lot of people So how do we juxtapose God's goodness with our not goodness without having to be feeling sorry and sucky all the time?

Well, that sounds like shame. Is that shame? It sounds like shame, probably. Um, well, I think we have— for me, I think you would have to move into now, out of this goodness, out of this forgiveness, Who does he say I am? Um, because if I'm walking around with a sense of pity or a sense of shame, maybe I haven't moved towards seeing myself in light of the newness that I've been given and provided out of that goodness. So if God says that I am forgiven, then I should not function as if I'm not. Or if God says that I am a new creation, I should not function as if I'm the same person. Or if God calls— God uses Paul and Peter and references the church as beloved, meaning I'm loved of God. I think seeing how God talks about me— that's a bright— is that the Lord in your room? He said, let there be light.

I'm trying to turn it down. I thought the sun would last, but it hadn't. You are a light on the hill in real life that shall not be hidden. Okay, keep going, keep going. I was trying to do it while you were talking because they can't see me, right?

But it just got bright, girl. You was— you look like you on Mount Sinai for a second. I didn't know the thunder and the trumpet was gonna sound. But, uh, yeah, I think, I think it's— yeah, I— his goodness has also given me a new name and a new identity and a new awareness of life and all that it is. And so there's no need to walk around with my head down when when he don't treat me like that. Does that make sense? Yes, it probably don't.

So hard. No, no, no, but, but women, women in particular, um, I mean, we all do, but I think women in particular, whether it's a struggle with homosexuality, where it's a struggle with promiscuity, whether it's a struggle with— I mean, listen, if I— let me go to Target looking crazy and run into somebody I went to high school with That's how I feel, you know what I mean? So I'm just saying, we have this struggle with not wanting people to see the stuff that we struggle with. So when you know God is good and you know what he says about you, but you're struggling to connect— did you struggle to connect God is good and I want to believe what a good God says about me, even working through your struggles? How did that— I mean, what did that look like for you? Because people struggle to put the two together, really. I think, honestly, no.

Honestly, and I really do mean— I'm not trying to sound like I got it together, but I, I didn't. I'll say the times I struggle with understanding and believing the goodness of God is when life isn't good. It's not when I'm struggling with sin. It's not when I'm dealing with temptation, it's usually when I'm praying for something and it's not happening, or some— or there's a death that I'm grieving, or that it's usually circumstances, not my inward issues, that cause me to question the goodness of God. Um, but I feel like— I, I feel like doubt for me drives me insane. Um, and I, I just, I don't like going through life with no peace and no joy. And so there have been many times in my short walk with the Lord where I just have had to choose to believe that he is doing something good in all of this turmoil. Um, but I've also had to have some really good friends around me because I often have seasons of depression where goodness is definitely absent, and I don't feel like fighting. I don't feel like believing. I don't feel like listening to Natan worship song. I don't feel like going to church. I don't feel like doing nothing spiritual to try to fight my way out. But I've had time. I've had friends that I can call, and my husband even, where I say, can you, can you, can you fight for me? Can you, can you be the one continually praying with me and for me? I don't even want to ask you to do this. This, but I feel like that's the only thing that's going to keep me sane. And so, um, yeah, yeah, we, we're working on memorizing, uh, James again.

We didn't make it all the way through. We made it to James chapter 3, so we back in chapter 1. We starting over. My kids— and I always say my first— the first place I ever give a message is at the kitchen table with my boys. And if I can hold them captive, I should be good. But just this whole doubt, this whole idea of the one who doubts being blown and tossed by the wind. I was like, listen, yeah, if you're gonna be half in and half out, it'll make you crazy. It'll make you crazy, and it will, it will steal, uh, your peace. So I like what you said about that. Okay, so I know in your book you talk about the gay community, and on page 93 you say the gay community is called that for a reason. It is a community, a collective of people with different names, social statuses, eating habits, upbringings, and more, but with one commonality shared among them that made all more alike than not their sexuality. This is your community. This was your community. What fears leaving your community or changing how you interacted with that community did you have? Or was there fear at all?

Yeah, there was. I think I primarily feared— I just didn't know what going into a church would be like. Like, um, just because my, my experiences with— not all Christians were trash, um, but a lot of my— not all of them, but a few of them were— the, the experiences, the experiences were so disheartening, um, where I really did feel like I just was so aware of my lesbianism around Christians. Because they were so aware of it. And so I was fearful of going into a space where I didn't know if they would treat me the same, if they would judge me, or, you know, "I don't want you around my daughter," or just center my entire personhood around my sexuality. But God was great where that wasn't the kind of church I found myself in. They really did truly love me for me. I think my fears of leaving my community were one that people wouldn't understand because my conversion was so abrupt. It wasn't like I was going to church randomly or listening to Marvin Sapp where they're like, oh, she finna get saved. It literally came out of nowhere.

You didn't post it on your grid, the Holy Nine. You didn't give none of that, none of that. Did you leave it out? Did you take it down? Y'all, she put—

oh yeah, I said that at 11 PM.

I wouldn't play with y'all. She put on her Instagram 9 of her favorite gospel albums, which, you know, you went back a minute. It was really good. And then— but I can't leave it up because it's gonna mess up my grid.

I don't like ugly grids. You know, people with grids, they got 18 flyers. It's like, that event was 6 months ago. Let it go. Let— just delete. But anyway, um, I was, I was, I was just afraid that they wouldn't understand, like, what is this? What— why you do that? You know what I'm saying? And that they wouldn't want to be my friend anymore. Um, that was a true thing for me.

Okay, that's a great place because I gotta, I gotta ask you this. Somebody in the comments here, basically it was the connection. It's the connection of me with either people from this, this, this, um, this era of my life or this community of my life. Um, this is me and how I figure out the connection with my family member who told me that they're gay and here's their partner. What do I do? Okay, so, or, you know, this is a question that I've heard recently. Okay, so I can see over there that I think that's a gay couple. So what do we do? Like, what do we— and really, people, I think a lot, you know, what people would say is, you know, homophobia, which is real. I think a lot of what's called homophobia isn't that at all. It's just, I actually don't know what to do. So I mean, like, in any case, so just kind of taking that step by step, I think first of all, the fact that you just said that would they still be your friend, that implies that with Jesus and all, you still wanted relationships with the people that you had been in community with.

Mm-hmm.

You all right? You got to plug up your phone? Is it—

Yes, I do, because it's about to—

listen. Real, some real stuff. So I can still hear you.

Yeah, I'm still— I'm still—

what is the landing page for that community relationship? Are those relationships you continued? How did they change? How did they morph, evolve? All right, I'm back.

Um, well, for me I can't see you now though.

I'm here.

Okay. Um, they, they had to change because I changed. And so I think, uh, for the sake of my own soul, um, I, I kind of distanced myself from most of my friends for a season because I knew that, uh, they were the same people and I was trying not to be. And so I felt like, man, if if I'm in their space, if I'm in their world, they're not gonna change what they do because of me, you know. They're not gonna stop smoking, they're not gonna stop, uh, drinking, uh, excessively. They're not gonna stop talking about girls. They're not gonna stop putting porn on in the living room when we hanging out. And so for me, it was just like, I, I know I can't be around y'all because I'ma become the old Jackie again, um. And but I think over time not all of those relationships were restored, but we've all had some touch points, um, in many years. And it's been encouraging because many of them, I think they thought it was a phase, which is expected. Everybody gets saved, you know, that one random time, and then they like, all right, I'm back, y'all, let's go. So for me, like, I think 7 years in, they were like, man, I just expected you to come back. And the fact that, like, you you're still a Christian and you're still loving Jesus, seemingly, um, there's like— that, that says a lot to me about God. And so, yeah, yeah, some of them bought my book. I was, I was happy about that. God is good.

Who, who is it your heart— who is it your heart to reach with this book? I'm gonna come back to the thing, but I gotta ask, who is it your heart to reach?

It's a few people. It's, um, main So 3 people. It's those in the church that want to love the LGBT+, uh, plus community well, that may not understand it, don't get it, got family members, uh, those in the church who are same-sex attracted yet living, trying to live righteous, trying to live holy. Um, I want to be able to encourage them to say that they're not alone, um, and then— or they're not alone. And then the last group would be those who— gay, lesbian, straight, whatever— but they're not necessarily believers, don't know how to believe, what to believe about what the scripture has to say about sexuality, and I just wanted to offer them a different perspective.

So getting back to this idea of community, as a believer, it's not my issue. It's not what you just said in terms of, you know, I can't be around certain people because it'll change me. But there's that whole debate about what it means to love someone well. Versus particularly what it means for someone who claims to be a believer but is choosing a lifestyle, how to interact with them. And I've, you know, I've heard the gamut on that, from, you know, what you just said about coming to the church and people saying, well, I don't want to be around my daughter, you know what I mean? Just, um, and often from a pure place, just, just trying to figure out what the right thing is to do. So what are, what is your thought on what it looks like to engage with friends, family members, neighbors, people at work, while trying to maintain your clarity and truth, but also loving, loving well, and being able to engage so that— yeah, I mean, I could go on and on trying to ask the question, but you get what I'm saying.

Yeah, man, I think for one, I think we overcomplicate it because, um, I call, I call it In the book, I say that for me, homosexuality was one of my loudest sins, but it wasn't my only sin. And so I think a lot of times, I don't think we're asking these questions about our aunties that got gambling problems, or, you know, our sister that just, you know, she just likes men a whole lot. We're not thinking through, how do I love my gambling uncle well?

We just, we just love them. We just hang out with them.

We just engage in conversation. We don't feel the pressure to talk about, you know, Proverbs and what it has to say about what we do with our money and our time, or about stewardship every time we meet with them. We just hang out with them. And so I think it's— I don't think it's any different than that. Um, I think we, in many ways, we just see the flashing red light of this person is gay, this person struggles with their sexuality, so I have to figure out how to navigate around that. No, I think we need to get back to— no, this person is an image bearer of the living God. They have a first name, they have loves, they have desires, they have friends, they have family, they like to— they have certain movies. And so I think when we relate to people on a human level, that takes away all of the stress to figure out how to, how to love you just love them as a human being, as an image bearer. But I think also, as things arise and doors are open for conversation, have the boldness to talk about it. So we can't just be loving people on friendship alone, or friendship evangelism, where it's like, "I ain't never gonna talk about the truth." But I think there's a way and a graciousness to talk about the truth that doesn't just sit around who they are attracted to, but rather, do you love God or not? Let's flesh that out together.

So that's good. If there's one takeaway that whoever reads your book, whether it's the 3 people that you mentioned that you have in mind when you're writing, or if it's just the people that are nosy and go— I mean, I'll just say that— who are gonna pick up your book because they're just like, what'd she say? What'd she say? If there's one takeaway, what do you want that takeaway to be?

God is good. But honestly, I didn't want to write a memoir that left people, uh, impressed with me or more knowledgeable about me than they were about God. I really, really wanted and prayed for and tried to be intentional about making that book so God-saturated that anybody would would leave it wanting him. And so I, I think that's the takeaway, is that whether if they are unbelievers, I want them to walk away saying, wow, I never, I never knew that Jesus was that good and that much better than everything that I thought was worth my soul or my affections. Maybe I should consider trusting him. Or for the believer, man, I forgot that God was that good, man. There's so much more of him that I can know and believe and trust. And so I just wanted— I just want that, that people would just want the Lord after they done reading it.

That's really good. Okay, so I gotta end with my own curiosity question.

Come on.

Not really related exactly to the book. It's about you. So you put on, uh, something, probably Instagram, um, you were somewhere working. You were talking about being an Achiever Type 3 something. Now, Enneagram, girl, are you into it or is it just everybody else is into it?

No, I don't. I'm not reading all the like spiritual books.

No, I can't. I'm like, but I know what I am because everybody talks about it all the time. Okay, so, so you got a lot going on. Okay, so, you know, I've got— I've seen some comments on the feed with people wondering, you know, okay, how'd you get into speaking? And maybe they don't know that you were already speaking you know, you're just a poetry per— you're a word person. But, but when I look at that, and then you're on a plane, and then you're— and people probably wanted the same thing about me— but then you're speaking here, then you're speaking there, you know, then you got— then you're on a tour with your poetry. Oh, you had a baby, but now you're back on the road. In order— okay, so then, then the thing is, it's an A and a B. Answer it however you want to. Number one, how do you keep yourself doing what God asks you to do without being overly busy? Body, okay? Especially since you have the bend of being kind of that achiever, kind of go-getter, kind of, kind of gal. Yeah. Um, and how do you balance what God has put in you, which is to be a go-getter, with the need to rest in him? So how do you do it all, and how do you keep yourself in balance?

Honestly, I think I'm feeling at that. I really— I don't, I don't think I'm doing good, uh, with it. And I'm in— but I'm, I'm I'm trying to figure it out. Um, I just bought Kevin DeYoung's book called Busyness, and that's getting me together because I know I'm not doing good because my level of anxiety and stress is— it's overwhelming. And I know that's not healthy. And so I think what I'm realizing is, is that my planning isn't good. So I'll just be saying yes. It's just like, yes, I'll do that. Sure, I'll do that podcast. Oh, you want me to speak to the youth?

Sure.

Oh, my baby got a doctor's appointment? Yeah, we'll do it at that time too. It's just like, say yes too much. I don't— I don't— I— and I think to even today, I was like, okay, I have way too much to do. I need to be willing to look crazy by rescheduling something. So there's a humility. I don't like looking like somebody that breaks it. Even with y'all, I think I had to reschedule with y'all because I'm like, oh, I double booked. But I don't want to—

and when you said you needed to, I was like, I get it, let's put it— let's figure it out if I get— if I can get it in another time, because I get it.

Yeah. So I say I don't have— I don't— I'm not doing well with it. I'm just— but I'm trying to figure out why, and I'm wrestling through— I'm wrestling through that with friends. And, uh, I think for 2019, my 2019 is probably 50% booked But I, I felt like God was like, okay, take a step back, look at your months. Will you be in the same position next year that you are in now with the same level of anxiety and the same level of stress because you're not planning a year in advance? And so now I told my booking girl, I said, you know what, don't book no more for this month and this month, or, and take these weeks out. And because I didn't do that last year, I just I just let them do whatever they wanted to do. But now I see that that's not— that's just insanity, and I'm gonna crash really hard if I continue doing that. So that's just being honest.

So now I will be your big sister, not your mom, not your mentor, but I will be your big sister. I need it for a very wise woman to start figuring that out now. That no is a good word, that you have to block off time for yourself, because if you don't, people will block it off. They will block your time off from yourself. And you won't have any. And I just want to encourage you, and I mean, I get it, it's a struggle for me too, but I mean, I think I've just, um, I've been it, I've been there. So I just want to encourage you to keep working at that. Yeah, uh, because, because you don't want to be in a scattered place giving less of yourself to the thing that matters. And you, this is the thing for sure I want to say to you, you have too too much creativity that wells up out of you, whether that's poetry or book writing or whatever. When you're speaking, there's too much that has to come out of you for you to be dry. And the only way that you will stay full is if you have the bandwidth to be nurtured and nourished. And you do not have the bandwidth to be nurtured and nourished if you're always on the go.

That's real.

So pick—

speak to me.

One day on your calendar where you don't go nowhere. It's just always off. Just, this is my day off.

Yeah, I committed last week. I told my friend, I said, okay, I think I need to make Sunday an actual Sabbath, you know what I'm saying? Because I'll, I'll go to church, but as soon as I get in the car, I'm checking emails, I'm responding to stuff, I'm thinking, okay, I gotta work on this message, I gotta do this. But I was like, no, I think I just need to turn stuff off, eat some food, watch CBS, call it a day. And so I think I'm gonna start— I'm gonna start doing—

listen, and you know, you know how to reach me. So if I can ever be of any help, listen, I will. I would love to be a big sister in that because I'm— I mean, I'm not perfect, but I figured a few things out. So you're doing— you're doing good though. You're doing good. Tell your husband thank you for letting you join me tonight. I know he's back there with the baby.

Oh, he wrestling. It's bedtime now though, but he probably, he probably so busy he don't even see it.

Well, I want to applaud you again for your authenticity, for your transparency, for your willingness to, you know, in, in the words of She's Still There, for you to own your story, um, and to be willing to share your story, to be committed to community of believers that really need to understand that if we, that we do overcome by the blood, but we also overcome by our testimonies, and that your willingness to be honest about your own is freeing and chain-breaking for others. So thanks for being willing to share, y'all. If y'all have not heard of her book, you haven't bought your— bought her book, go look it up right now, Gay Girl Good God, and, um, be ministered to by, um, the words of Miss Jackie Hill Perry. Thanks for joining me.