Havilah Cunnington on Standing in Authenticity and Authority

So y'all, you know, I get excited about people that I have been wanting to talk to or not talk to, but share with you on the podcast. I get really excited when I get a chance to have them on. And Havilah Cunnington is one of the people I have been waiting and excited about and anticipating sharing with you. And Havilah is joining us today. Welcome, Havilah.

Thank you, Chrystal Hurst. Yes. It's— I've been waiting for this moment too. I feel like the first time we met you, I met you. I'm like, we are going to do something together. And I'm so excited. I'm excited to be here.

Listen, I want to tell you, I, um, I don't know why I stalked you a little bit. I don't know why. And I don't know if I was even stalking you on purpose. It may have been, maybe I was searching Bethel stuff or I don't know, but I stumbled upon on YouTube, there was a very old video of you on YouTube. Um, you had short hair. Uh, you were super, super young. And it may have been because I listened to you talk. Maybe I watched one of your webinars and you were talking about how long you've been doing what you're you're doing, how early you started. And maybe that's where I went. I was like, I wonder if I can find— and like, you have been a powerhouse, a very confident, um, no-holds-barred kind of speaker and sharer of truth for a long time. And you started doing this early. I mean, just being in, um, Bethel at the church in Redding and just embracing very early your calling in life to share God's word and to encourage people, particularly women, in the, in the call of for their lives. So obviously that's taken loads of shape as you've moved forward, and I'll let you tell everybody about what you do, what you steward, both in the church and outside of the church. But, um, I, I first want to ask you this before we get into what you do. I want to ask you, were you always just on fire and like, whatever God calls me to do, I'm gonna do? Has that always been a part of your persona, your personality? Because when you see someone that's that that who they are that early? You know, it's like, was that come because something broke in your life? Did that come because you knew from a very young age you were called? Did that come because someone discipled you and called it out of you? Like, what did that look like for you to start so early in your calling in life in the gospel of Christ?

That's such a great question. I, I've been like, had a lot of conversations. I've never been asked that. I think that's really amazing question. I would say It's interesting. I grew up in a very interesting home. My dad was an immigrant's son who turned congressman, who was an atheist, womanizing man. But he was raised in a Catholic school. And when he became— when he went to Catholic school, he said, "God, if you're involved in any of this, I don't want anything to do with you." So he became an atheist for 7 years. Meanwhile, my mom was raised on a California farm and married her high school sweetheart, got saved watching a Billy Graham TV in a hotel room, watched Billy Graham, got saved, gave her life to Christ watching that. And so these two get into the Jesus movement. My dad gets radically saved after being suicidal. He had been chanting to Krishna and Buddha. He walked up to a field one day and said, Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, I don't know which one of you is real, but please reveal yourself to me. And that looked like a month and a half later walking into a little church in a town called— in California called Timbuktu. Yes, there's a town called Timbuktu in California where 3 old ladies had been praying for revival. And when it came in looking like Jesus hippies, 2 of them walked out and said, we don't want to be a part of this. He got radically saved. So I was raised in an environment with two parents because my mom's husband actually was killed in a plane crash and she came to Christ in the middle of all that, her first husband. I was raised in a home where my parents were very in touch with the salvation of a Savior. I was raised by an evangelist. I was raised by a dad who was into cutting down cultural idols and just Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. So I was raised around someone who didn't prop up faith but actually lived it out and was very integrous to the point where I think people might have said he was a little bit wild in that. But for me, that began a very early journey of watching an authentic faith, right? Like a healthy, authentic faith. And my parents, from a little girl, they would pray over my sister and I and say— I remember this. As a 2, 3, 4, 5-year-old, they would say— they would make us repeat, "I'm a leader." And so they would have us repeat, "I'm a leader." And then they would pray over us every night, "Lord, I pray that you would make them to be leaders in their generation." Wow. And so there was this narrative around it that we would pray for our spouse, we would pray for our future. So, but fast forward, I, at the age of— in 3rd grade, was tested by my school and found out I had learning disabilities. I was dyslexic. I had reading and comprehension attention issues. I was not academic at all and was pretty illiterate for the majority of my grade school. And then by the time I hit high— junior high and high school, I was very lost and, and terrified that somebody would find out how lost I was in my academics. Like, I, I barely graduated high school. I mean, it was like a point away from failing entirely. So I didn't, I didn't come out with this success moment. But God radically got a hold of my heart at 17. And I told Him, "I'm not much. I'm young. I'm 17. I'm a girl. And I don't have any gifts. In fact, I'm a little broken. But if You can use me, You know, use me." And I think that at that moment, I had no idea God would do what He did. But it's been a long time. And Chrystal, I know you are the same way. It's not, you know, someone said, "What does overnight success look like? It takes 10 years." And I feel like that's, you know, people go, Oh, how— look at you, write books and you travel and you all go over. And I'm like, I've been doing this since I was 18 years old. You know, I have not given up. And I think that's the difference between being in it for 25 years of ministry at the age of 45. It just tells you that's, that's what it looks like. So yes, I was— my dad used to say I was the strong-willed child. Um, he called me the lion, my sister was the lamb, and During my entire childhood years, there was a book on our coffee table called The Strong-Willed Child by my parents.

I had that at my parents' house, and I own that at my house because I got one of those children.

I just had the realization recently that my intensity and my strong-willed, you're not going to tell me what to do, almost to a fault. Now I go all around the world by myself. And so that strength was there that was connected to the call. I just didn't probably know it at the time.

Yeah. It's so amazing how, if you will stick with God and just do the next thing, stay connected and do the next thing, he has a way of showing you, oh, that's why you gave that to me. And I think the gift that you received, and I received this too, is having parents who called it out. Um, you know, my, my mother, well, here's how I I figured how— here's how I realized a couple things. First of all, my granddaughter, uh, is 6 now. And my mother would say, when she was 2 or 3, she would say, she's very perseverant. And we would all talk about Ellie and say how strong-willed she was. We're like, she's going to change the world. But when my mother would say she's very perseverant, that kind of was like, wait a minute, because I remember my mother telling me, you're very perseverant. And when I saw Ellie and what perseverance looked like, I thought, no, that's a strong-willed child. Like, that's a child that's not listening. That's a child who wants to do it her way. And I asked my mother, I said, wait a minute, you're using the same word. Is that how I was? And she just said, I mean, maybe. But I— but she would always say, and that's why it was negative, never a negative connotation for me. She would say, you're very perseverant. And I don't know what God is going to want to use that for. What I know is he gave that to you for for a reason. So in my 20s, when life was difficult, I got pregnant as a teen mom. I got pregnant as a teen. So I was a teen mom.

Yeah.

And then working through my 20s, getting a job, being successful, you know, kind of, you know, still getting a degree, graduating on time. And she would say, I told you, God built you this way for a reason, because there are so many things that you need now. Like, you need that bullheadedness, you need that stubbornness, you need these things. And so, I know that a part of your ministry, and we'll get into that in just a moment, but a part of that is encouraging women to understand who they are, how they're built, what God has put in them, because so many women did not have that. Even if they had good parents, nobody looked at their wiring and said, "Ooh, I see what God has built you for. Let me call that out of you." And so, I'd love for you to just start with, if you can talk a little bit about Truth to Table, talk a little bit about your ministry there, even your ministry at Bethel. Like, what do you do? How do you even— even from both church and para-church ministry, want to call women up and then just dovetail in why it's okay to not have gotten it. Yeah, but why it's okay for you now to go get it, like to go get what you need in order to be who God called you to be. So what do you do, and how does that translate into how women can help themselves if they didn't have people like you and I to call this out of them?

Gosh, that should be a book. Like, it should be— it's okay that you call it out, and why it's okay. It's time you can do it.

That's the subtitle. That's the subtitle. Your title is Call It Out.

Yeah, let's go. I like it. I'm like, why is it— why is it—

look, it's your next book, Havilah. It's not mine, it's yours.

No, I have enough work. I, I'm trying to finish the two books I already committed to. It's like someone said, are you gonna have a baby girl? And for your viewers that don't know who I am, I have four boys, and everyone's like, let's pray for that baby girl. I'm like, I rebuke you in Jesus' name. Like, I'm trying to raise the kids I have. I don't need a miracle baby. Like, I'm okay. So basically, I run a nonprofit ministry called Truth to Table, and it started— it did not start with some amazing, you know, promotion or me having a platform for it. It actually started with an idea to host a Bible study on Facebook, and it was with my friends. And back in the day, you were allowed to invite as many friends as you wanted. You'd have to actually be friends with them on Facebook, so you could be the weirdo That was just inviting hundreds of people to your event. And so that's what I did. And we did our first Bible study and I thought 50 women would join us. And we had about 6,000 women that joined us. And the Bible study was okay. It wasn't groundbreaking and that was it. But what happened was I began— what happened is the reason I started something like that was because I was this young mom. I had 4 kids in 5 years. I was a teaching pastor at a church. I just newly married. I had, you know, we'd gotten pregnant 3 months in, and then 4 kids into it, we're on our 5th wedding anniversary. And so I was looking for a Bible study that was tangible for women, for myself, that was really straight to the point, only took about 7 to 10 minutes because that's how long my kids could live without my interaction. Um, it needed no homework because I didn't— I always felt behind. In life with laundry and dishes and all the things. I didn't want to feel behind in my spiritual life. And I was looking for something that had a complete thought because as a young mom, you can't connect two thoughts.

That's right.

That's right. You know what I mean? Like, when someone goes, "Remember what we talked about yesterday?" You're like, "I don't even remember my third child's name. Like, I'm not going to remember what verse you talked about." So I was looking for Bible studies that would help me in that space. And there was— and I was a visual learner because you guys know I have disabilities. So I couldn't just grab a book and read it and get a lot out of it. So I need a visual experience. And so that's how I came out of a need that I had that actually ended up becoming really the call of God in my life. So I always say, don't ignore the things that bug you. Don't ignore the things that you wish somebody would do. Maybe it's because God has made space for you to do it yourself. And so I started that. That was kind of a side gig to me running another ministry called More Revolution. And I was traveling and teaching with that ministry. And finally, both of them grew to a point where I had to decide, and Ben and I took the risk about, I wanna say 5 years ago, we went full-time with Truth to Table, and I travel a couple times a month around the world and teach and all the things. But I just took a role recently for a church called Bethel. And for those of you that don't know who Bethel is, Bethel's a church in Northern California, and most people know Bethel by our music. Our music goes around the world and hits the top of the charts on a lot of things. I have absolutely nothing to do with that other than to say, That's where I go. And so I took the role of being the women's pastor there. So I'm a women's pastor at my local church, and I get to, on my weekdays, write Bible studies, leadership lessons, teach people how to write books, all the things. And then I travel on the weekends along with soccer games and football and laundry and cleaning and cooking and all the things.

So the first question that somebody wants to ask you right now before we get into You know, how does a woman, woman call herself up? Basically, we're going to, we're going to write your book on our podcast. You know, is how do you balance all that? And that's a lot. I mean, you know, it is a lot because your 4 boys right now, the age range of your boys.

15, 14, 11, and 10.

Okay. So you're right there in the middle of not only—

it's terrible. Yeah.

Because when they're little, when they're little, you think it's terrible. Yeah, they're cute, you're exhausted, but when they get older, yeah, they all individually have lives. And so now exactly, you're like flipping drives.

I am the— I drive everybody. I'm, I'm just as tired, and now I'm broke. Like, it's just like I was tired, and now I'm— I mean, I said at first it was when they were little, you wipe and swipe, you know, you wipe everything and you haul everything. And now I feel like all I do is swipe the card And I'm just driving. I drive everywhere and they love it, but it's intense. And I don't know about you, Chrystal Hurst, but, you know, we had the pandemic and COVID and that really slowed our life down and it really allowed— it was fantastic. It was terrible when you have littles at home and you're trying to navigate that. But then it was really good because you didn't have to do the things you didn't want to do. And it was a great excuse to not do the things you want to do. So our life is amped up. But I was just talking to somebody recently, and I— even for your listeners, I think it's interesting. I asked— there's a woman who ministers to leaders around the States that are pastors and leaders of business. And she said, "What's right now, what's happening is there's a low-level anxiety that people are dealing with right now that they never had to deal with before. And that low-level anxiety is actually changing their capacity." So we as women are going back into the trenches to do work, school, all the things that we have to get done. And I'm noticing even in myself, my capacity has shifted. And the only way I can relate it, and I don't know if this makes sense, I hope it does, but I have my phone here. And if you ever charged your phone, like, you know, you wake up and you're like, "Yes, I plug my phone in. I'm going to have a full, fully juiced up phone all day." And then halfway through the day, you look at your phone and it's depleted to like 20%. And you're like, "Wait a minute. I wasn't even on my phone." And then you realize that there was something running, whether it was your Maps or something was running behind the scenes that was depleting the battery. And I don't think we as women are understanding that we have apps that are running underneath this regular quote unquote life that we're going back to. We have some underlying anxiety and narratives that have changed the way we see our world. And so we have to have a different plan. So for me, I would say, and I, I'm getting back to your question, The only way I've been able to navigate my life up into this point was something called boundaries. And I know boundaries is a hot word, but I wrote a book called I Do Boundaries. And that book came from a season when I was diagnosed with postpartum depression. I was an ordained minister. I loved God, but I was, I was at a low, low place. I walked into a counselor's office. I'd never been in a counselor's office. And she said, you have postpartum depression and I'm going to help you. And so I met with her every week for 6 months. At the end of the 6-month thing, I'm like, "Okay, I'm good. I'm healthy. I'm ready to go back to my call, my purpose." And I said, "But, you know, before I leave, what do you think about my life? What do you think?" And I had asked her and she said something that made me want to punch her in the face. She said, "Well, Havilah, you would have been here eventually. The babies just got you here sooner." Wow. And I was like, "What do you mean by that?" Wow. And she said, "You have no structure for longevity in your life." And you are so— you're so— you have no idea what is yours and what is other people's. And you are so connected to being the good girl or the girl that accomplishes things, but you have no ability to know what God holds you responsible for and what He does not hold you responsible for. And so she said, if you're willing, you can meet with me once a week. I'm going to meet with 6 other women. They're anonymous. You're not allowed to ask each other's last names or where their life is. Where all of you are in influential roles in your lives. And I'll teach you healthy boundaries. And that year turned into a year and a half. And I sat there for an hour and a half every Friday and I paid $35 every week. And I sat and began to learn how to structure my life. And then in 2008, when the whole world blew up and we lost our job and we lost everything, I packed up our— packed up our U-Haul. We drove to a little town called Redding, California to take a job.. And my world, yes, my world blew up, but also my life was now on a platform I wasn't— I had never been on. And I had invitations to places I'd never had. And I would have— I honestly, Chrystal Hurst, would have died under the weight of that if I hadn't learned the boundaries and the health systems. And so when I talk about how do you do what God's called you or rise up to that, I'm like, "If you don't know what God holds you responsible for, you will be overwhelmed, overworked, or underutilized." And it's not about what we can or can't do. It's about being obedient to what God has called us to be and do on the earth. And that took a lot, and I had to learn it. And I have to revisit my boundaries every single day to make sure that I'm living a healthy life.

That's so, so very good. And I love the fact that you being led to learn about boundaries came because you were crashing and burning. And even though I know that you wanted to punch her in the face, because listen, I'm not trying to have anybody tell me what's wrong with me or what will be wrong with me. It's like, I don't want to hear that. Like, but, but I think the reality is, the reality is you were able to receive that at that time, not understanding or not realizing that it was preparation, not just for your current life, but for future life. And it was a tool that God was enabling your deficit at the moment to create space for you to learn or to pick up a tool that you would need in the future.

Well said. I mean, all of us hate it, but the hardest times are when we learn the most, right? It's true. And so I think sometimes we think the most mundane is actually what God— like, I was a house cleaner before I was a traveling minister. So I cleaned houses for 6 years. And the money that I made from cleaning houses funded my ability to travel to youth groups and preach to them because they didn't have any money. And what I learned was I learned what it was like to serve people. I learned what it was like to do a good job when nobody was watching. I learned what it was like to see myself as valuable, even if the people that I was around didn't see my life as valuable. And that was critical. So I always say, like, I didn't go to Bible school. I went to life school. And that prepared me. So, you know, we can't— we don't know. Some of us get to go to Bible school, ministry school, and that's the call that God has on us. And others of us are in the trenches with the babies or, you know, as a single woman being the only breadwinner that we have. And that's what God will use, whatever it is, to prep us if we lean into it.

Well, I love that. And I want to— I want to— I'm going to stick a pin here because I just want to make sure I come back to, you know, what's a woman to do who didn't get it? And we keep kind of touching it. In different ways. But even what you just said about not going to seminary, not going to Bible school, but this is the calling that God had on your life. And I think so much of what women are seeing right now, ministry people, men and women, but particularly women, there is a, for lack of a better way to say it, like a glossiness. Like, if I'm going to be in ministry, and if I'm going to teach the Bible, not only do I have to have this certain following, not only do I have to be Instagram ready, not only do I have to have a wardrobe or stylist, not not only do I have to be able to, you know, have this online situation or that, like, I have to have this persona or this presentation in order to be a person who is leading other people. And if I can't do that, then— and so instead of aiming for the life lessons, we're aiming for the things that will help us with our persona or with our presentation.

Wow.

Yeah, you see it all the time. You see young women copying speakers, you know, the way they move across. I was, I was at an event the night. And literally, I was looking at this girl, sweet girl, beautiful voice. But all I saw was Jen Johnson. So for those of y'all who don't know, Jen Johnson is one of the voices for Bethel, a lot of— one of the voices, one of the main voices. But as she was walking across the stage, how she would move across the stage, you know, how she was pointing as she was singing. All I was thinking is, I just see Jen. And there's a couple of other girls that do that. They just walk across the screen and they're doing that. And I just thought, I know who she's been watching. And there's nothing wrong with it. But what I found is that we have a group of young women in particular who are just trying to copy what they view as ministry success. But what they don't realize, or not always willing to do, is copy the seasons of being unseen and the seasons of learning and the seasons of living life to let God teach you what it is like to serve, to be humble, and to be teachable and ready to know God's word before you have to speak God's word. And so, I would just love for you to share maybe some encouragement, um, wisdom with women who want to do what you're doing. They want to speak, they want to teach, they want to, want to lead. And it might be in the church, it might be in the world, but, you know, they're not willing to learn the hard lessons or to do the hard things.

Um, yeah.

What would you say? I'm sure you got to run into women who are having— I want to do what you do.

I do.

How can I do what you do? Yeah, yeah, a lot.

And it's the idea, right, when we see someone that looks successful or, or, you know, living in their God-given calling, we connect an emotion to that. So we go, oh, they look like they're in their full calling, so they must be fulfilled, their marriage must be amazing, they must have all the funding they need. Like, we make a lot of assumptions which either A, causes us to strive and try to become, or it actually gives us permission to check out, right? Like, if it's so easy for them, then I'm out. I don't— I'm never gonna really be that.

I can't do that.

So I can't do that, so I'm out. And what I think is really important is whatever you create, you have to sustain. So if you create a persona, then you have to sustain that persona. And we see this a lot in the, in community of faith, we see moral failures, people that are living double lives, or they are, you know, they're broken. Part of their story is being exposed. Why? Because they created a persona rather than being the authentic person that needed to get the work done and figure out how to live a healthy life. Doesn't mean that we're perfect. And you, Chrystal Hurst, you and I both know, like, there is not a perfect leader on the face of the earth. We are all flawed individuals. I promise, coming out with me for a day, you'd find that. But I think that the idea that I often have to ask ourselves, is it that we want the emotion that we assume that person has, or do we really want the job that they have? Because that's very different. You know, it's very different. And we don't know what it costs them. It could have cost them not being at their— with their littles. It could have cost them their marriage. It could have cost them a lot of other things. And we don't— it's like looking at somebody who looks super healthy and fit, and we're like, I want to be fit. And we're like, well, you don't understand. And how long that took them. They could be working out 2 to 3 hours a day. Is that what you want to do?

Like, is that—

because you're not going to look like that unless you work out 3 hours a day. So we're looking at this persona of what it's supposed to be. And so what I would say is, remember that movie? I think it was Notting Hill. But when she's looking at him, she's famous, he's not. I don't remember all this part. I promise I don't.

Just tell me, because I know that movie. I can tell you. Okay. Okay.

But she says, I'm looking— I'm just a girl.

Girl looking at a boy, asking him to love her. Yes.

To love her.

Yes.

And I see that as, as a— I'm a girl standing in front of a God asking Him to use her. And it's that simplicity. Like, every single time, no matter if the stage comes or goes or the numbers come and go, it doesn't really matter. I'm still the girl at 17 that said yes to Him. And it's that part that I think if we can humble ourselves— and here's something I want to say to those that are listening. I've been traveling in the United States during COVID after the pandemic, and I'm seeing this face of America and specifically the faith part of America change. And what I'm witnessing is that, yes, there are a lot of people that have left the faith or left the, the church itself, but those that have stayed and those that have engaged, they are so hungry, they are so ready for God to move. That if we don't bring it as leaders, we will be overshadowed by their hunger. And our false elevation of our spirituality or our faith or whatever it is, it's going to end up being overshadowed by their hunger. So we got to bring it. And so it's not like it was before. So if you're saying, I want to do this, I'm like, well, then you better be prepared because the people aren't playing and they're going to be able to point it out.

Cute, cute Christianity is over.

It's over.

It was on its way out, but the pandemic fast-forwarded that whole moment in an extraterrestrial way. And people are like, listen, if you're not going to tell me something that's going to change my life, don't inspire me. Don't motivate me. Don't convince me to try. You better tell me something that's going to have power and that's going to move the needle in my life. And if you can't do that, why am I listening to you? Because there's a million people out there that had voices and mics during the pandemic who encouraged me and who inspired me who don't know Jesus. So if you're not going to do more than they can do, then why am I here?

Why am I here?

Why am I here?

Right. And I think it's going back to we are sinners saved by grace. We're now saints. But it's going back to the reason we need saviors and the reason— a Savior, excuse me— and the reason we are here. I just think authenticity will always outweigh gift mix and talent. And I think you being who God's called you to be authentically and flawed, but you will inspire people. We want people to be themselves. And so, you know, if you're performing— and I've done it. I mean, I am guilty as the next person. Sure, when I was younger, you know, I was trying to, you know, I don't know, I wanted to make sure I was doing it right. Yeah. So I tended to mimic what other people were doing. Yes. But as you get older— and I always say this, like, you know this, But, you know, in your 20s, you're learning and you're grabbing things and you're adding friendships and ideas and theology and all things. And then in your 30s, you're editing, like, oh, I'm not marrying him and I'm not gonna have any more kids and I'm not gonna take that job. And in your 40s, you begin to master what you know is you, but you kind of go like, I'm never gonna do that and that's never gonna be me. And then in your 50s, you're just like in your prime, I think, because now you're like, I know who I am, I'm not confused. So I think we all have seasons and it's okay to be in a season where you didn't know. You know, if you're like, you're talking about the women that are listening today that are saying, you know, I'm just getting it. I mean, I'm in middle age or I may be past middle age and I'm just getting it. You know, I always think Joyce Meyer didn't start till she was 40. Like there's so many people that didn't even start, start until after their midway mark. And so I'd rather not have a one-hit wonder, like one-hit moment. I wanna have a longevity of being consistent. So that's— yeah, I, I don't know. I, I think it's very important. And to, to really challenge yourself: is this who God made me, or have I created what I think would make me feel a certain way? And I always said, if I wasn't at the church, I would be doing this anywhere. I'd be selling my faith anywhere because it's real, it's authentic, it's who I am. And so people often say to me, you know, Havilah, when I met you, you're just how you are on stage. And I go, yeah, I'm not smart enough to have two different people. I'm only one person and I can only be that. And if that's disappointing you, then I'm sorry, but this is who I am. And I think it gives people permission. So I don't know. I think there's a lot of space for a lot more voices. There's a lot of space for women, whatever season you're in. You know, you don't need to tap out. And I think that's really, really important. Like in all of our lives, there's this thing in the culture that says you have to be young and you have to be great and you have to be the best. And I'm like, no, you just have to be who God's called you to be in that space and with that confidence. It's funny, I was listening to— not to preach, but I was listening to how salesmen and women sell things. And they said this, which I thought was so profound. It said, statistically, you don't need the person who's buying what you're selling to believe in the product. They have to believe that you believe that your product will work for them. So it comes down to what we actually believe. It's the core belief of us believing that God can use us, the core belief that we are right on time, the core belief that we have everything we need to, to thrive. That belief will give other people who may not think you're right on time or have the right size or the right age or the right background or right education, that's secondary to them believing in you, is you believing in yourself. And I think that's pretty profound.

You know, I was thinking, you know, just as you're talking about what you have become to realize, there are two things that crossed my mind. One thing is silly and just fun, but you were talking about 20s, 30s, 40s. Well, I just turned 50 this year and I happened to be scrolling through Instagram today. And I don't even know what— it wasn't Tracee Ellis Ross. It wasn't her Instagram. It was some other show she was on, but they were asking her, she turns 50 in October. And they were asking you, asking her, how does she feel about getting older? And she said, well, I've always loved getting older. She said, but, and they were sitting down. She said, but I'll tell you, as I approach 50, It feels like this. And she just stands up. She said, it just feels like I have earned the right to stand here. Like, I get to stand up in myself. And I think there are some things that we try to backwards engineer. We can backwards engineer our worthiness. We can backwards engineer our place in God. We can backwards engineer sometimes our calling, because it's very clear at a young age. We can backwards engineer obedience and righteousness and holiness. You cannot backwards engineer time. Time.

Wow.

And there is something that— yeah, there's something that you only get with time. You just get— it's like a pair of shoes. Pair of shoes could be the greatest pair of shoes in the world, but it's not until you've worn them a few times that you break them in and they become your favorites. It just takes time. And so I want to encourage people who are listening, who are thinking about where they may or may not be in life, just keep going. Just be faithful to do what God has asked you to do. And just trust that, yes, he does call— cause— Romans 8:28, all things to work out for the good those who love him. So if you just stay faithful and do your part, then maybe some of the things you want God to do, or you want to see, just take time. But be ready when the opportunity meets your preparation, that those two things coincide. And so, um, that was one of the things I was thinking about as you were talking, like, just stand up. But the other thing—

yeah, just stand up. Really good.

I was just thinking about you and how you were talking about you don't know what it's cost you. And I know that recently you've had a lot of fun in your life, Making adjustments personally. Um, there are stressful things. We were talking before y'all, we started recording about how we both recently in the last year or two, um, experienced some moves and those moves have been challenging and a little bit more than what we thought they would— they thought they would be. I think, you know, I would, I would love to learn because people think you've arrived. They do think they see you, they see you made up, they see you, you know, traveling the world and speaking. They see you. You know, at Truth to Table, ministering at Bethel, whatever. And they don't anticipate or assume that there's like every day, like, yes, my floors weren't right, and my paint wasn't right, and my children won't let me do my house or whatever. So, I would love to know, what have you learned in the last year of your life being a little flipped inside out or upside down? Just as you continued to be faithful with all the things that are in your hands to do, because You know, it's not easy. I don't know about you, but when there's chaos in my life, I don't feel— I have to fight to create. I have to fight to lead because I'm so very distracted by the things I need to be paying attention to. My kids, I should be distracted by my kids, you know, but it's in an extraterrestrial sense sometimes, or I should be distracted by caring for my home or caring for my husband. But if there's health issues or if there's major repairs or renovations, that's like an extraterrestrial kind of distraction. My job doesn't stop, you know what I'm saying? Like, I still have to do other things. So what have you learned about yourself in the last year with the things you know God has called you to do, but with the chaos that you also had to, um, manage in the last few months or the last couple of years?

Well, first of all, Chrystal, you may not know this, but I, I heard this, that in Texas you are not allowed to file for divorce 6 months, 6 months after any renovation, legally, in your house. I'm like, there's somebody out there that knew.

Listen, leave it to Texas. Leave it to Texas to have a rule like that.

Yeah, we did. We, you know, we have a lot of humans. We have 4 children, and we were living in a little 3-bedroom, 2-bath. We loved our house, but our children, you know, our our eldest is 6'2". I mean, they're getting big and we needed more space. And, um, God opened up this opportunity for us to get this specific house, and it had a little house on the property and then a bigger house that needed some significant renovation. So we moved our little family of 6 into this 2-bedroom, 1-bath little guest house that we lived in for— we thought would be 6 months. It was 6— I'm sorry, thought it'd be 6 weeks. It ended up being 6 months. And it was tough. It was tough. It got tough. I don't know if you were like this. It's funny, you know, you're talking about chaos and distraction. And I mean, you had 5 kids. I have 4. You would think that we— chaos would be no big deal. But the older I get, the more I can't do chaos. Like, I can't do noise. I can't do yelling. I can't. I just am like, can everyone just be quiet? I have to think, you know. It's like I'm gonna have to turn the radio down so I can know where I'm driving. That's how I feel. And so I felt I was just challenged. I was this way when I was pregnant. You know, I was great first trimester, second trimester, but by my third, I was like, "Get this baby out. I am done. I'm done being pregnant." And that's how it feels sometimes in seasons with God where He puts us in a moment and we're like, "Okay, I'm good. I'm responding good. Okay, good. Yeah, I passed the test." And He's like, "No, the test is like a couple more miles." You know, you're like, "Okay, I really passed the test, God. I really did." He's like, "No, you still have So I felt like at that— I think it was about May where I thought, I'm going to lose it. This is insane. Like, I'm done doing this. And I kept my— I did keep control and I kept my faith. But I think I've learned a few things. I think number one is not to be shocked that you're going to go through ups and downs, no matter how godly, no matter how devoted, no matter how old you are. Are. Ups and downs are part of being human. They're not part of life choices all the time. It's not part of a consequence. Ups and downs are life. That's what it looks like. And then also, I think I've learned the lesson, and I did not— I don't naturally think this way, but I've learned that there could be good and bad at the same time. And that was something I did not know in my 20s and 30s. And now in my 40s, I'm learning that, that there can be amazing incredible things happening, and the same time, things that I hate and don't want to do and don't like doing happen at the same time. And so instead of thinking it has to be either/or, it can be both. And it's okay to, you know, the Bible really talks about the emotions. There's no moral value on emotion. The Bible says you can be angry and sin not, which means my emotions give me information of what's happening on the inside of me, but they don't determine my choices. I get to choose what I'm going to do. And so for me, I would say, I mean, I'm just being fully transparent and vulnerable, Chrystal Hurst. Like, I'm in it right now. I'm in it. I'm in a season that's harder and longer than I thought. I don't like it. And I'm having a great time. I'm traveling every weekend. I'm ministering to thousands of people. I love all that. But there is a part of me that I have to surrender to the battle, the part that culture and life and a recession and inflation, and my kids are being raised in a crazy culture and all those things. I don't live in a Christian bubble. I'm around all of it, and I'm learning to let my faith rise to the surface in the middle of all of that. And so I tend to, at first, used to think I had to have it all together. And now I realize I have a bad day and I start again the next day. Okay, and I had a bad moment, but it's not that I'm bad, you know, or I didn't do that well, but it doesn't mean I don't do anything well. I actually do a lot of things well. So giving myself permission to be in that process and to not like it and not in faith claim that I like it, but just admit I don't like being in this season, but I'm not going to dismiss the things that God is doing and I'm not going to dismiss what I could be learning. And I always said this. You can be in pain and not have any purpose in it. You can just be in pain. But it's our responsibility to give pain a purpose. And that's why we do what we do, you guys. That's why we read the Bible and meet with each other and listen to podcasts like this. We're trying to give purpose to the pain, to the trials, the things that we're overcoming. That's why we're doing it. And whatever you've overcome, and I've realized this myself. Whatever I've overcome is now firsthand knowledge, which means I have authority in that area.

So good.

So whatever you've overcome, right? Like you said, I'm a teen mom who grew a family and now grandkids, and I have a beautiful life. So now you can talk to any girl that has found themself at that space that I can talk— I can talk as somebody with secondhand knowledge information, but you have firsthand conviction, which holds authority. And sometimes I feel like we just miss that, that we always wanted to divorce the things that we don't want people to know, or maybe things that were like, "Oh, it wasn't the highest moment of my life." But instead, using that. So postpartum depression isn't something I like talking about. I don't like saying depression. I don't like explaining that I had to go on medication for 6 months to get through. And I was an ordained minister and I love the Lord. And I mean, I don't like that. I don't like letting people know that. There's a part of me that would love nothing more than to never talk about it again. But it doesn't serve anyone if I hide it, and it doesn't serve me. And I divorce myself from it if I don't say, I can just have— I could just walk through postpartum depression. But I've used that pain now as a place of authority. So when I meet women on the road or in my life that are in a dark place after giving birth or just in depression in general, I have a compassion and empathy that I never had before I walked through it. So that's what I hope our listeners understand too. Like, if you're in it, and we've been in it, whatever you're in right now, fight for that freedom, that breakthrough, because on the other side of that is your authority and it's your call.

That's so good. And you don't even realize it, but there's like 3 things that you said as you were talking that confirmed, first of all, a point that I need to make in the teaching that I'm doing tonight for church. I was like, oh yeah, that's the point right there that I need to make. Um, the second thing is just walking in authority. It's not even— I think we've reached the point in Christendom where we realize like, okay, we can talk about the things that have happened to us, even if we don't want to, we can. Like the culture is kind of— we've moved in the direction of authenticity and all that. But I think I love how you're acknowledging that. You still don't like talking— like, it's still not your favorite thing to talk about. Like, it's still— just because you have accepted that it allows you to have authority doesn't mean you enjoy revisiting, "Yes, this was my story." So it costs me.

Yes, it costs us when we say it. Like, people don't— we don't just say— like, my dad had 2 abortions before he had my sister and I, and he told us that. And he wears a wristband with the names of his children on his brings risk, you know, every day that he believes he had two boys and he's named them. But he said, every time I talk about it, it's something I never want anyone to know. I don't want them to know I had abortions. I, as a man, I don't want them to, you know, I don't ever have to tell anybody, but it doesn't help anybody. And there's a lost generation of men that haven't been able to be— have a voice. So whatever we're giving voice to, it's cost us something, but in the long run, it's the only way to get purpose out of the pain.

It's so powerful. It's so powerful in so many different ways. And I, I think that people assume that if I have authority over it, or if I've walked through it, like, it's just easy. It's easy for me to talk about it. It's easy for me to acknowledge it. It's easy for me to own it. And what you're describing is so true that if, if I'm being authentic and truthful and sharing my life with you, every time I share share it, I might be feeling pain, but I'm going through it because I believe that sharing it with you is still more helpful to you than me just holding it and healing from it. That's my sacrifice. Yeah. Yeah.

That's my— and as a girl who didn't go through certain things as certain women did, when I hear it as a listener, I immediately trust you. There's something in me that when I hear a dark part, you have a Limp?

Yes.

Oh my gosh.

Yes.

Tell me about your limp. You know, and it's like, oh, I don't want to talk about my limp. Like, I'm walking now. I'm running now. Like, don't sit there and talk about my limp. But there's something that immediately says, oh, you're human? Okay, tell me about that.

That's so good. So for the woman who's listening, and you know where we started and where we've continued to just touch on who can you be, who should you be, who has God called you to be? She didn't have anybody call anything out of her. She didn't have anybody say, "You're a leader." Didn't have anybody pray over her. She didn't grow up hearing about the possibilities that God had for her. Um, just in all the things that we've talked about, if we had to tell that girl the one thing, like we've touched on so many things, but if we had to say, "Hey, if you're listening and you feel that you're You're, you're— there's a word I was looking for and it left me, but it starts with an F. Fun—

not fun.

It's not fondling. It's not fondling. It's not fondling. That's another thing that happens as you get older. It's like, what was the word? Yes. Fumbling. Fumbling.

It's so true.

If you're, if you're fumbling and just feeling like I I want this. I want to be able to set boundaries. I want to be able to know God's calling on my life. I want to be able to walk in power and confidence. I want to be able to walk in worth. I want to be able to acknowledge my pain and not let my pain, you know, rake me across the coals with trauma, but allow me to heal from that so that I can walk in power over that. But I don't know how. Nobody taught me. Nobody showed me. I don't have anyone in my life. I'm so overwhelmed. There's a million podcasts, a million preachers, a million books. I feel like I'm at a loss. I don't know where to start. And I didn't have the start that you all had. What would you say to her?

Well, first of all, I'm sad that you didn't have that because I think every girl, little girl deserved that. And that was— I just want to acknowledge that that was something that you deserved, period. Like, end of sentence. You deserved that. But I know in my own life, like, when I told my parents that I had postpartum depression, they told me, me, you can go to counseling, but don't tell anybody. We don't want people to know that— we don't want to give people permission. And definitely don't tell people you had medication because we don't want people to get on medication. So I remember that whole thing. And the reason I'm saying this is I realized that the team I had was not the team I needed for the purpose and direction I needed to go. So I always tell people, build your team. And what I mean by that is be really ruthless about building your team. My team was my counselor my husband, my doctor, who ended up being my— one of my best friends at that point, um, and a best friend that I'd walked through it. And that was my team. And those are the people that I let speak into my life about this. And even though I had a great team, and my parents or my sister or my family, they had the best intentions for me, that wasn't the team I needed for that moment. And so I would say, wherever you are, build your team. If it's a certain podcast, if it's a certain book, certain people you need— healing happens in community. But build your team. You need a cheerleader. You need a coach. You need somebody in your world. So that might be a support group that you attend every single week that you— or a Bible study. It might be a counselor or a pastor that you meet with. It might be a friend that's a few steps ahead of you. If you're a single mom who has kids in the house, then you meet with a woman who their kids made it and she was a single mom and you meet with her. Don't build your life with women that have husband and, you know, everything kind of worked out for them. Build it with people that understand where you're at today and can give you the next step for where you need to go. And so I would say build your team, get that narrative in you, and don't— don't allow that to be a sacred space. Sacred. You, you are on the earth is very important to God, and who speaks into that is— it's very critical and it's very sacred. And so guard that and find women that are for you, that love you, that are not competing with you, that are not lying or gossiping about you. There are really great women, um, and leaders and people around you that are, are waiting for it. May not— they may not be your age, they may not be your size, they may not look like you would assume that you need to have around you, but I promise you, if you look on the inside, they have the qualities that you need in your life. And that's what happened with me. None of the people that were on my team I would have ever thought were the people I would need on my team. It wasn't until I identified the need and realized that they had an expertise in that need that allowed me— and part of it was one of them introduced me to another, who introduced me to another. So you just need that one that says, come with me, and then you meet. Okay, well then that person knows this person, and that builds into your story. So not to overwhelm you, but find the one and then say, how do I go from here? And then protect it. Take 6 months and and treat it like a sacred space and build that narrative inside of you. Whether you need to go to counseling and unpack trauma or toxic thoughts or things that are limiting you, or you just need to go to school and get the training, or you just need to join a support group, it's up to you. But you got to build the team. And, you know, I hate to say it, but there was a moment when I realized, as I had 4 kids, we had lost our job, we're in the middle of a recession, I'm going back to work work. We moved in with a family that didn't have any money, so we moved in with a family to save some money to live in their two bedrooms upstairs. And I remember realizing the thought, no one's coming to rescue me. It wasn't that God wasn't going to rescue me, but it was almost like I was waiting for it all just to kind of work out. It's all just gonna work out, you know. I just have the right heart. It's all gonna work. My husband's gonna get it together. I'm gonna get it too. And I just felt this kind of part of me which was If you're going to really do this, you got to do it. No one's coming. You've got to build your team. And I'm not talking about a striving or like out of an orphan heart of like, I've got to just prove my worth, but more like you are worthy to go after the things you need in your life to build your story.

So powerful. That's so powerful. And, you know, I want to just say this. Listen, we started to talking at the beginning about Truth to Table and You all know if you're listening to this podcast, probably already, you know, about the Sister Circle. You don't have an excuse. Like, yeah, there are a million books, there are a million podcasts, there are a million churches, and then there are online communities like the ones that Havilah and I have where you can connect with practical information, but in a context of faith. So you are not studying the Bible absent of practical application, nor are you receiving practical help absent of faith, that the two can coexist, that you can take steps and know what you're supposed to do. Because God's word is practical. And, and Havilah and I, both of us have a heart to take God's word, which is powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, it pierces through to the bone and the marrow, and then say, okay, so now, how do I set boundaries? And how do I love the people in my life? And how do I learn God's word? And how do I, how do I, how do I? So, in this world in which we live, if you are saying to yourself, I just don't know how, and I can't do it, let me just call call that out as a lie from the enemy. Because he wants you to feel alone. He wants you to feel isolated. And he wants you to feel like you are incapable. But when you were talking, Havilah, and you said, okay, I'm worthy, like, to make it happen. You know, I think about Moses and how he didn't feel like he was worthy. And God said, what do you have in your hand? Yeah, like, what he needed was right there. So if you're listening, and you're thinking, I don't know how to fight for freedom, I don't know how to fight my way out of depression, I don't know how to fight my way, you know, back into Faith. What you need is right in front of you. So don't say a minute longer, I can't, I won't, I don't have. Decide today because we're telling you, we're both your big sisters. We're old enough to be your big sisters. We're telling you that you can, you just have to decide that you're going to.

Right.

And if you need help, there's plenty out there. And she and I both provide assistance for you. If you do not, if you did not before this podcast know who Havilah was, now you do. Go follow her, go check out Truth to Table, go check out her books. She's got a great website where not only is it easy to find resources and connection, um, and to learn more about her, she's got so many things we haven't even talked about. We didn't talk about her support for authors and speakers and all kinds of stuff. So if you are in need of connection, please check her out. Please go find her. If you need boundaries in your life, cuz we all do, check out her resource, I Do Boundaries. And then Havilah, thank you so much for joining and just being, you know, willing to be authentic and a truth teller and to share what you've learned and how you've learned it. It's really been helpful for me. And I know it's been helpful for our listeners.

It's been an honor to be here really. And I can just, just as you led this conversation, I just think it's such an amazing thing to have such a safe place for those that are listening. And I hope that they join you because I know it's a safe place.

Absolutely. Absolutely.