Healing After Abandonment: Trusting God With What You Didn’t Choose

So welcome back to another episode of the Sister Circle Podcast. Sometimes I am interviewing people that you already know. You already know them before I ever cut the camera to their face or say their name. But sometimes and often, I love to bring on the podcast someone who you don't know, but who you should and who you definitely should learn from. So I'm glad to welcome my friend, Ms. Michelle Smith, to the podcast today. Thank you.

I'm so glad to be here.

Okay. So I know you, Michelle, for a variety of reasons. Currently and in the past, but currently, I'm always tugging on you and pulling you to come and teach at Women's Stuff. So Life on Life. We're going to do something for Wednesday nights, hopefully this spring. And I know we've talked a couple of times where you— first of all, let me start. Let me start. Let me back up. There are moments in my life, and I want to know, have you ever had this moment where when you're talking to someone and you realize that things have shifted? Because you are my mother's friend.

Yeah.

And then we went to lunch one time.

Yeah.

And I was like, oh my gosh, I'm talking to my mother's friend. Has that ever happened to you?

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, wait, how did you— how did this happen?

Yes. Well, then I was like, I'm old enough and she's talking to me like I'm grown. That's how I felt.

Yeah, yeah. But now she's, now, yeah, it's transitioned.

Yes, I mean, you've always been my friend, but you were my mother's friend first, I guess is what I should say. And so not only do you have a lot of wisdom that I love to hear from you personally and make sure that you are in the position to share with other people, but you also have been a source of wisdom and Chrystal, I'm your friend, but let me put on my hat and tell you what you need to be doing, honey. Go home to your husband and do XYZ.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, but you did, uh, come to me by way first of our church and by way of my mom, right? And I don't— I'm curious to know, actually, how did you all connect initially?

Initially, you know, she was doing the First Ladies Conference, and, well, your dad was doing the Pastor's Wives Conference, and I was married to a pastor. And so we decided we were going to come down to the Pastor's Wives Conference, but I had just given birth to Winston. And so I was nursing.

And you have 4?

4.

And so he is your—

He was the 4th. So he was the baby. And so I was there at the Pastor's Wife, and it's when the Pastor's Wife and First Ladies Conference met together. Right. And we had separated for our little section and I needed to nurse Winston. So I asked one of the ladies, one of the ushers, you know, is there somewhere I can go nurse? And she didn't know where we could have a breastfeeding room or anything. And Lois happened to walk by and she said, Sister Evans, do we have somewhere, you know? And so she said, here, come here. And she took me into this room and sat down for a minute. And, and I started nursing Winston. She asked me about my family and I told her I had 4 and she had 4, but they were older. And just in those few minutes, I just I felt like I could be her friend. I like her, you know. And she was just so gracious to me. And I was just kind of a stick out of the mud because I was a young pastor's wife and had this new baby and all of them were old and established and, you know, in their churches. And so she was gracious to me. And fast forward, probably 10 years. Was it 10 years? No, no, no. Fast forward 2 years because Winston was a baby. So this happened at 2 years. My husband was living a dual lifestyle, and so he was involved in, um, pastoring the church. The church was growing, but then he was living a life of homosexuality, and so, um, he had to step down from our church and he left our family. And I was just— the rug had been pulled from under me. And so, um, I didn't know what my next steps would be. And, but I always knew I needed to be under a good spiritual umbrella. And in Oklahoma, it was just too thick. The air was too thick. And everywhere I went, it seemed like people were, you know, well, actually, one time I went to the grocery store and I saw a lady from our church. So I was kind of avoiding her, right? And going on the other aisle.

You stay on aisle 8, I'm on aisle 5. Right. But then she saw me.

She caught me and she said, oh no, you and him were like the Twin Towers. You just came crumbling down.

Oh my gosh.

And you know, you think that you're healing until that— Yeah, something like that is said. And I just told the Lord, I can't stay here. I can't heal here. And so I remember calling Lois and saying, you know, I'm thinking of moving to Dallas. I'm thinking of moving to D.C. or New York. I know that's a big difference, but do you think there'd be a place for me at Oak Cliff? And of course, just like she was then, she said, if the Lord is leading you there, there is a place for you. And so, or if the Lord is leading you here. And I didn't move here then. I went and lived in New Mexico for a year, prayed and thought, and I, I just, I knew no one here. Not one person, but your mom, and barely knew her. But I knew I'd be under a good spiritual umbrella. You know, I trusted the teaching of your dad, and I was like, I just need to go somewhere where I can be fed and healed, and I need to go somewhere where my kids can be fed the Word while I'm healing, you know. And so we came here, and when I got here, I said, well, let's go to lunch. I went, you know, told her I'm here, you know. And so we just put a lunch every 3 months on the books and we would just go to lunch. And after 2 years of that, she said, hey, I want you to come to a women's ministry meeting and just kind of sit in. So that's how it started. Yeah.

Well, I remember— well, if my memory serves me correctly, that A part of the struggle in the journey, apart from the obvious change in your family and being a single mom and having 4 kids, and— right— is having a heart for the Lord and a heart for ministry, and then going apart from just me and my family, like, is there a place for me for ministry?

Right.

And so, you know, when you got invited into that space? I mean, was that even on your mind? Were you thinking about—

No, I, I was so hurt and so damaged. I felt, um, I felt like I just had like this huge, you know, D, red D on my forehead, and I, I just felt like I was damaged goods. And, um, and, you know, I guess when we would talk, you know, she heard my heart, you know, that I just love being with women. I just love encouraging women. And, and so that night when she asked me to come, they were revamping women's ministry. I think we had Desperate for Jesus, but nothing else at that time. And she was telling all the things that she wanted to happen. And then she said, there's this women's ministry coordinator position. And, and she would kind of be, you know, with, with the men and, you know, the person that would coordinate the events for the women with the men. And, and so, you know, this is, this is the job description. And she was going through this job description and there was a girl that had just graduated from DTS and she was across from me. And I thought, and she was young and vibrant, you know, and I was thinking, That's who it needs to be. But I was thinking, Lord, I'd love to do it, you know, but that's who it needs to be. And after that meeting, she said, Michelle, would you hang back? You know? And she said, I would like you to prayerfully consider being that women's coordinator. And Chrystal Hurst, I cried all the way home because she saw that ministry wasn't over for me. She saw what the Lord saw, that the whole ministry that he had for me was just then really opening up, you know. And then I remember talking to another women's ministry leader, and she took me to the word and said, God's call is irrevocable, you know. God put that passion in your heart and put that love for women in your heart, and that's not tied to another person. That's what he has for you, you know. And up until that point, I thought my ministry was always tied to, to his ministry.

So yeah, so you were a part of the launching and development of our daytime Bible study at church, which is called Life on Life. And I know that you've, um, you know, life— you've raised kids and had to move and do other things, and you're now remarried. But I know you've had the opportunity in recent years to come back to Life on Life. Yeah, uh, to teach there. And I've heard talk a little bit about kind of seeing that happen even and continue even past her passing?

Yeah, yeah, it's unbelievable to see, you know. I mean, I remember it was just a thought. I mean, when we would go to lunch, you know, we would talk about what if, you know, women could get together and encourage each other, you know. What if in a laid-back situation they would learn the word, but they would learn from each other, you know. And I remember sharing with her, you know, my grandmother talked about they used to wash clothes and the younger women would go with the older women and wash clothes. And I thought, washboard women, you know, that's what we want. We want them as they're doing their chores, you know, because it used to be after life on life they could do scrapbooking, they could do, you know, making quilts, you know. But as they're living life, sharing stories or giving advice, you know, and teaching each other how to live. So it was, let me pour my life on top of your life, you know, and learn. You don't have to make all the mistakes I made, you know. And, um, but to come back and see now it's like a well-oiled machine, you know, there's teams for everything. And I remember we used to come in and decorate and, you know, um, register the people and, you know, put them in groups and teach.

And now there's a QR code and you sign in when you arrive and all that kind of stuff.

All that, all the things. Yeah. So it's—

well, I think it's very important to have the, um, the benefit of hindsight and being able to look at— like, you can see, I thought this was over, right? I can see that it wasn't. Someone agreed with God about what God had put in me. And then even over the passing of time, look at what I was a part of that was just a thought, you know? And now here I am, um, in coming back and teaching, but I'm here and saying like, here's the history, here's where we started, here's the heart of the founder, the visionary of all of this. I think that's important. But what I love about your ministry, the way I've been able to experience it, yes, you teach the word, and yes, there is the grow alongside you Michelle Smith that I know, and then there is the let me teach you something Michelle Smith that I know. And most recently, when you were teaching at Life on Life, I heard you talk about forgiveness, and it was very powerful. And I know that you've had a lot of opportunity, like we all do, but to practice forgiveness. But I'd love for you just to talk a little bit too about the story that I heard you sharing there. And it was about your dad and just about learning how to forgive and the importance of forgiveness. So, yeah, um, and I'd like to circle back around to the marriage part later, 'cause I'd like to talk about that some more. But can you talk about why in your relationship with your family, your father, you needed to have forgiveness and what the Lord has been teaching you or taught you about that?

Right. Well, my, I'm adopted, and so you have to go back to that. So I, my mother and my father, had an affair. And, um, my mother, she was a nurse and he was a doctor in Chicago. And so she came back to Oklahoma and had me. And, you know, the Lord's hand, I feel like, was just like on Moses, you know. Um, his hand was on my life. Um, she wanted to— I was My father was Black, my mother was white. And so in 1964, having a biracial baby, you know, do you know anyone that wants to take this child? And just so happens that the doctor had a maid that went to church with my mother and father, my adoptive mother and father. And he was biracial and she was Black. And so they were so thrilled because they had been trying to have a baby. Fast forward, they adopted me. And he ended up having an affair. So he left our home between 1 and a half and 2. And so I never really knew him. And I probably saw him 5 times in my 18 years. And, you know, there's that just yearning that you want that daddy, you know. And I remember in college thinking— and that's when I came to a saving knowledge of the Lord in college. And so when the Lord saved me, he showed me my heart, you know, or he started to reveal pieces of my heart. And I was very angry, you know, very hurt and bitter about— and jealous, you know. I would look at girls that grew up with a daddy and a mom, and, you know, and I would think, why didn't I have that? Right. And but the Lord showed me that's unforgiveness. And you're letting that root of bitterness start in you. And that's going to ruin you if you don't let it go. And so I didn't know how to forgive, you know, I, I just had become a Christian. I was raised in the church.

Yeah.

You know, knew how to walk and talk, knew scripture, but, you know, didn't have a relationship with Christ.

And so how old were you or what season were you in in life when you realized bitterness, that when did you realize anger?

Very quickly after I got saved. So I got saved at 19, and I was in college during that time. I just remember it was in my college years, so probably 18 to 22, you know. Um, and I remember being in a Bible study, and I went to talk to the Bible study leader, and she told me, go to Matthew, you know. And so I read the story about the king and how he forgave, you know, greatly, right? And then the same man that got all of that forgiveness went and said, okay, now you're in my debt, right? And I thought, I know I need to forgive him. You know, I know you've forgiven me and now I'm saved. But what does that look like? How do I— how do I do that? You know, I mean, I don't even know where to start with that. And I just kept researching that story, and you know what occurred to me is they had a decree when, when you got forgiven, you know, they wrote it down, and you know, the, the king signed it, and you know, the person that was being forgiven signed it, and, and the court clerk, or whoever was called that in that time, had that record, right? And so I'm, I'm a writer. I journal, you know, and I decided I'd write a letter to him. And so I wrote the letter and I started out, I forgive you, but I felt a need to tell him, what am I forgiving you for? You know, you need to understand all of the things that caused me hurt over the years. And so it was, it was a determination to forgive him. It was a decision. It was just a decision that this is something that has to be done in order for me to be free, you know. And so I wrote the letter, but then I thought, now, how is this going to play out? You know, I mean, if I send the letter, I don't know if he's going to get the letter, right? So, and I'm still kind of tied to it. So my grandmother passed during this time and she left some money and he was calling me about, you know, providing some of the money for her funeral. And so I thought, ah, that's what I'll do. I'll put the check of what I'm gonna give him in with the letter. So if he cashes the check, I know he got the letter, which, you know, which made no, you know, it didn't matter to him.

It made sense to you then.

It made sense to me, you know. And it makes sense to me now because all I needed to know is you got it.

You got it. Yeah.

You know, because it wasn't a conversation.

Yeah.

It wasn't anything I needed to hear from him. You know, like some people, ladies come to me and say, but they haven't asked for forgiveness yet, so I'm not going to forgive them until they ask. But then you're holding yourself hostage, you know? And so I just needed to know he got it. And then I was free. And it was crazy because me writing the letter, tears were just streaming down. And it was like a therapy session. I mean, I was just getting out all of the hurt, all of the bitterness that was starting to root in me and sent the letter and he cashed the check. And but it was, you know, it sounds like 1, 2, 3, you know, it's a decision. I was deliberate, you know, but, but it didn't just go away, you know, because I think that's the big problem, right?

Forgiveness. When, we discuss it. I think in this day and age, people get the message, you gotta forgive, it's not for them, it's for you so you can walk free. But then you say, okay, I'm gonna say out of my mouth, I forgive them, but everything attached to that is still there. The feeling is still there, the anger might rise, the hurt might still come. So it doesn't feel like freedom. The decision doesn't feel like freedom. And so What did it look like for you to actually walk in forgiveness when the decision didn't necessarily change the feeling?

I had to keep reminding myself, you know, I go back to that decree, you know, if they came back and said, you know, now we decided we need that money that we, you know, we said you're not in our debt, but now we need that money. You know, there were times that, you know, I'm reminded you know, that because you did— you made the decision to do what you did, now I'm lacking in some areas, right? You know, I don't know what it's like to have a daddy. I don't know what it's like to have a man in the home, you know. And so I had to tell myself, but the Lord has been with us, you know. He's been my daddy. He's been here for me. And I have to learn it now. I have to— I have to go to God's word and see what is it— what is it like when it says, um, wives submit to husbands? Because I saw that. So I had to lean heavy on what God's word says because I didn't have an example that I lived with. And a lot of people don't, even if the mother and dad are in the home, they don't have a good example. You know, I've had people tell me, you know, I know what not to do, right, because of what I lived with. So, but it's a constant reminder. It's like being intentional again. You know, you're intentional about getting up and, and getting in God's word, when those, when those thoughts come, you know, it's like, um, take every thought captive. It's like that baseball. When that thought comes, am I going to let it hit my chest, or am I going to catch it and say, no, no, that's, that's not going to be good for me? Yes, he did that. Yes, I'm going to have to learn some things and relearn some things, but, but the Lord planned these days out for me. And, you know, I had to kind of realize that, well, early in life, my life verse was Hebrews 13:5-6, and it's, 'Never will I leave you, never will I forsake you. I will not, I will not, I will not leave you without comfort.' Because I felt alone a lot of times, you know, didn't feel covered a lot of times. And so, um, the Lord had to show me in his word, 'I am what you need,' you know, early in life. I had to learn that and, and still learning that, you know, I think we just learned to trust him more. We learn to trust him differently, you know, but it's, it's being deliberate and intentional about reminding yourself that I forgive them when all those feelings pop up and you're angry all over again because it doesn't go away. But when he passed, I realized Wow, I really did forgive him. But this is, you know, 40 years later, you know, I sat in his funeral and I was okay. And it's funny because a lot of my friends, a lot of my family were like, are you okay? They didn't mention a lot about you, you know. But I was okay. I was okay. You know, the Lord allowed me to forgive him and And so it took 40 years to be really free, you know? But it's just walking it out and being intentional every single time. And sometimes, you know, you're not intentional.

And so you go in that hole and you're like, "Ugh." But it doesn't mean you didn't make a decision that you can come back to.

Right.

Hey y'all, it's almost that time. Coffee with Chrystal Hurst at night is coming. It's the opportunity for you to join me in the room with thousands of other women. Where I talk about the word for the year and kick off the year with you together. Now, here's the thing. It's at night, 7 PM. It is free, but you do have to register. So go to ChrystalEvansHurst.com/coffee. Now, why do you need to be in the room, do you ask? Well, there are 3 reasons. Number 1, you need to be in the room so you can chair dance. Y'all, we're going to play music and have a good time. Number 2, you want to be in the chat. It's all about the chat. And number 3, you want to make sure you are receiving a word of encouragement to kick off your year strong. So after the holidays, after the New Year, after you put up your tree, or maybe it's still up, it doesn't matter. Come join me in the room January 8th, 7 p.m. I'll see you there.

It's like a decision was made with him over those 40 years at all. We did start, you know, I tried to reach out And we went to Christmases every once in a while when my kids were little, but they would introduce me as one of the, you know, one of the four. And I— and it just, it seemed inauthentic to me, you know. I was like, you know, I was raised an only child. I'm not one of four. Um, yeah. So I told him, I'm not going to come to the Christmases anymore, you know, but if you want a relationship with me you can meet with me and we can build a relationship. But really, at this point, I don't know you any more than someone I work with, you know. And so that didn't happen. And that was okay because I offered, you know. And then when he was a lot older, he had a stroke. And, and so I went to, to see him. And I would go about once every 3 months to see him. And, and that was good. You know, I remember when he had the stroke and the first time he was out of it, but the second time I went, a tear just came down his eye and I got to touch him and say, you know, I love you. It's okay. You know, and it is. It's okay. You know, it's all because, you know, I trust my father that is higher than him. And he let this happen, you know, he allowed this to happen. And, um, and there are ladies that I wouldn't be able to talk to and tell them about forgiveness if the Lord didn't allow that to happen. So then that came— the second life verse is, he's comforted me in all ways so I can comfort others. And anyway, that wasn't what I wanted for my testimony.

Is it ever? Do we ever want—

no, no, you know, I wanted my grandmother's life. I wanted to be married 50-plus chairs and have all these kids. And, you know, she lived on an acreage and, you know, grew vegetables and had a store. You know, just, you know, that's the life I wanted, but that's not the life he chose for me. And part of that is trusting the life he chooses for you. And that's what's so sweet about Life Online, because I don't think many people get to see the impact that something they did— you know, we do all of this and we know in eternity this will matter, or when we're gone it will matter. But to get to see some of the fruit of something you've done when you were younger is, is just a real sweet blessing from the Lord. You know, he didn't have to do that, but he, he gave me that. And I, I'm grateful for that.

So, you know, even we talked about life on life, but, and there's, as you're talking, I'm thinking, oh, but this season and this season, like one of the things is You also went on, I know that your kids, and based on where they went to school and what they were involved in, you were starting to attend, you attended another church and then you were over, what was your title? Were you women's director?

Women's ministry leader of Prosper at one.

At one church. So even to see how God continued to build on that, like something that—

Isn't that crazy?

You didn't even, you were just trying to find a place where you could be.

Right.

And God had all these steps ordered for you in the very place that you'd always wanted to Right. So let me go back. My personal memories of you involve seeing you on Wednesday nights, bringing your kids to church. And you had 4 kids, 2 natural born, 2 adopted, because that's a whole journey. You wanted to have all these kids and live on a farm.

And then you—

and part of the story too is just wrestling with adoption or not adoption, but just the road to that adoption process. But my main memory of you is as a single parent. So you were a single parent for how long?

18 years.

Okay, so you, you get married into one life, right? Get catapulted into another, right? And now you're, you're married, and God has been gracious in this season of your life to give you that companionship. But the bulk of your life, the hard part, right? The hard part, you know, raising the kids, working, single parenting, you know. So it's not like You just came and nursed a baby. Lois Evans said, "Hey, you know, come on in." And then you moved, and then you joined the women's ministry. It was over 2 decades of raising kids by yourself. So, apart from the decision to forgive and reminding yourself to forgive, you talked about your dad and living without covering, but you were living without covering as a woman, as a mom to kids. And I didn't have covering when I was growing up the way I wanted to. Now I'm mothering these kids, and I don't have covering the way that I want it to be.

Right, right.

So, slogging through the reality of this is not supposed to be my life, and I'm living this life because this person first, and then this person second, made decisions that put me in a position I never planned to be in. So it's not like you just had one day where you remembered your dad and thought, I mean, this is like life ongoing. This life is hard because of decisions other people have made. How did you keep from living underneath that? I get that question a lot. People will say to me, Chrystal, that's one of the reasons why She's Still There is even a book. 'Cause people would say, so you were pregnant at 19? Like, how did you end up here? But there was a lot of stuff in between there.

Right.

But I'm sure one of the questions that you've gotten is, so how did you make it? Like, how did you not allow that to take you under?

Take you over, yeah.

'Cause I've met women who will say, and they say it with tears, makes me so sad. They're hearing things that ought to give them hope. They're hearing principles that ought to ring true. And then they'll come to me and they'll just have tears going down their face and they'll say, but this is what happened to me. Like, I can't, I haven't been able to ever since. Like this one thing, happened in my life and I could never get past it.

And that's the event that has just—

It defined the rest of their lives.

Right, right.

How did you not allow, and you know, hindsight is 20/20, those two situations in your life that put you in places you never wanted to be in keep you from going under? 'Cause these women that say that, they come to church, they love Jesus.

Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. But I think that's where community comes in too. You know, and transparency and being vulnerable, you know, not that I wanted to and not that I did with everybody. I mean, but I, I was kind of put in that situation, um, and my whole— I mean, you know, now it's on Law Order, right? You know, I mean, my, my life is, you know, everybody sees it, you know, but then it was me. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so every— I felt like everybody knew, you know what I mean, of what was going on. And part of it is I had to, I had to move and start new for, for the kids, making those practical decisions about I'm so grateful. I, I don't know how— I don't really know how the Lord guided me here, you know what I mean? I mean, I was praying and asking him for guidance. I, I was thinking of New York or DC or Dallas.

What's in New York or DC?

Friends. Oh, just one though, in each place. Just one. I just need one.

I just need one.

I got one friend there. And it finally hit me What if you move there and they leave? And you move there and they leave, you know? But in here, I had none.

But you were driving distance from Oklahoma, right?

Exactly. I was close to family.

Yeah.

And I was under a good spiritual umbrella. And I think just staying close to, to women that love the Lord. And that's, I think, part of why I'm in women's ministry and I love women, because from youth group, I used to talk to my youth group leader and I just thought, wow, she really, she really helps me make good decisions that are going to— and I wouldn't even say then, you know, that was in high school, but I wanted to, I wanted to do the right thing. I wanted to live for the Lord, but didn't know quite what that looked like. And so I think wanting to trust him, wanting to serve him, but then, you know, that hurts. Still comes in and, and owning it, you know. And because it wasn't always like, you know, oh, I'm reading my Bible today and I'm doing my Bible study and I'm good. No, there were lots of days when it was just all I could do to get out of the bed and, and get them to school. And depression was heavy, you know, because it wasn't the life I wanted. I remember one day my, my best friend, college roommate, I called her to tell her something that had happened, and she said, have you put the Christmas tree up? And I said, no, I— but I need you to hear me, I'm hurting. And she said, I'm going to talk to you when you put the Christmas tree up. I love you. Click. And I was like, you're supposed to be my friend, you just hung up on me. But she needed me to come back to life, live, to live. Yeah, she needed me to take my life back. And, um, And I remember the thing is, is that, yes, you can reach out to godly women, but when you're down, you should be in community enough where godly women come and grab you and they know that you're down. I remember when all of this fell apart, my spiritual mother knocked on the door and, and she said, hey, you know, we talked for a while and she said, I want you to go to this women's conference. This lady's coming from New York. You're going to love her. And I was like, no, I'm not going. You know, because I was at the point where if you hugged me, I might just fall apart. You know, I was just holding it together. Yeah. You know, and I didn't need— I didn't need that. She said, okay, how about this? We'll go late and we'll leave early. And I said, okay. And I went and this woman talked about her life, had nothing to do with my life, but just all of the hardships in her life and how the Lord was still there. And at the end of her speech, I went up and grabbed her and talked to her. I was desperate. I was desperate. I didn't want to be where I was. I didn't want to stay where I was. I wanted to live again, but I wasn't living, you know? And I call it like we were on the Titanic and everything was great. The church was going great and the kids were growing and the family was growing. But then all of a sudden the crash, you know, iceberg. Yeah. And then I was in a— in the water, not even on a lifeboat, trying to stay afloat for them. And, you know, I believe one of my mentors, and she's gone on with the Lord now, but I remember going to her and getting on my knees and just putting my head in her chest. And I said, Mom Malone, I don't think I could do this, you know. And she said, you can't, but God can. And we're going to hold you till you can again, you know. And she lost her husband at 40. He passed away and she had 10 children. And so she knew what she was talking about.

But she says you can do it. Exactly.

And so I was like, okay, okay, we, you know, Mama Long says I can do it. We're going to, we're going to do this, you know. And, you know, she's like, it's not what we hoped or planned, but it is what it is. And, and, you know, so we just walked through it. I remember coming to Oak Cliff and your Aunt Elizabeth, I remember her calling me because I was kind of down one Wednesday night bringing the kids and, and, and that night I couldn't sleep and the Lord just woke me up. And I remember going into the den and Twyla Paris's song, Do You Trust Me? Do I Trust You, Lord? came to mind. And the Lord was just— he was allowing events to happen in my life to bring me to him. And sometimes the scars, sometimes the pain, it's what brings you running to his throne, you know. And I remember that night singing that song saying, do I trust you? Do, do you know it? Do I trust you? I mean, even though you allowed this to happen, you, you allowed this. So can I trust you with my future? And, and I had to just trust him. My grandmother used to say, I don't have any more sense than to just trust him. You know, it's that simple. You know, it's not rocket science. And so it's not a Bible study. It's not a 1, 2, 3. It's just, I, I'm just going to trust you today and trust that he's good and trust that he He has a plan for you, and it's going to be a good plan, you know. Even though you can't see it, it's going to be a good plan. And you know, like with Frank, my new husband, I'm like, I— that's the plan that I never thought that he would truly have, you know.

Like, I'm an only child, I was a single mother, my kids are all raised and gone, right? Finally it's back about me, right? And the Lord says, surprise!

Right. I never got that time by myself because when Winston went to college, my mother came to live with us. Then I met Frank. So I've never been alone. I guess that wasn't his plan for me. But, you know, I remember at solemn assembly one time, the pastor saying, I want you to pray for that thing that, you know, the Lord could do, but you really don't think he can do. You know, you know he can, but you really don't think that's something that will ever happen. And I would always write mate because I never— I wanted a mate. I wanted that covering, but I never, never, never thought that it would happen for me. But at 55, it did. That's kind of crazy, isn't it?

You have said multiple times Well, you haven't said it, but you have mentioned this idea of setting boundaries because you were at Christmas and you were one of the four and you were like, I'm not coming anymore.

Right.

Is that difficult for you? Yes. Or are you a good boundary setter? Because the way it rolled off your tongue, you were like, Yeah, and I said, I'm not doing that anymore.

Oh.

Or I knew I wasn't going to heal. I had to leave. Right. And me hearing it, it sounds like, oh, that's— you're the kind that goes, okay, this is what needs to happen, so this is what I'm going to do.

No, no. I'm very thoughtful, very meticulous, very deliberate. And so my husband says, you're in your head. I am very much a planner, so things outside of my control make me twitch, right? I'm a planner. And so—

Try not to say control freak.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So no. So if I have a conversation with someone and I say something like, I'm not comfortable in this setting, it's because I have thought about it long and hard. I've journaled about it. I've thought about what I'm going to say. And that's why interviews like this are kind of hard for me, because I didn't give you the 10 questions.

Exactly, exactly.

And I don't have my little lesson, you know. I was telling everybody, oh Lord, you know. But I can talk one-on-one, but I— yeah, so, um, I planned— I had to plan it out, and then I had to 1, 2, 3 Okay, and tell him, you know, moving was very hard for my mother because it was just me and her against the world, you know, like the Helen Reddy song, All My Life. And so when I decided to leave and go to New Mexico and I knew I was just going to be there for a year to pray and think, it was hard for all 4 kids. Mm-hmm. I did. But what's so crazy is my birth mother, I found— or the Lord allowed me to find her the same year that everything collapsed.

Wow.

So I feel like I had like two mothers holding my arms, you know, during that time. And I didn't really know her and wanted to get to know her a little more. And so I decided I'll move to New Mexico close to them so I can, you know, spend some time with her, get to know her. But I knew I wouldn't settle there. I just needed to be somewhere else. Yeah. Yeah. I needed to take a step out of life for a minute and So that's what I did. So that was, that was very intentional too, you know, because I was thinking of the three places, talked to your mom, you know, prayed about it. But, you know, just felt like I'm not ready to make a decision now. Even came to Dallas before moving to New Mexico.

It just wasn't the right time.

It wasn't the right time. And so, no, confrontation doesn't come easy for me at all because I'm an exhorter. I like to encourage, you know, I like almost peace at any price, but I, but I can only take so much and then I have to speak up because forgiveness often does involve setting some boundaries. Right.

And sometimes people confuse, you know, forgiveness with continued allowance of, yeah, um, you know, behavior, uh, communication, actions, right, that aren't productive, right? Um, how for you, or would you counsel someone with forgiving and giving the person another chance versus forgiving and drawing a line? Are there any guiding principles when someone's trying to decide? I mean, we could— this could go the route of, um, you know, infidelity. He cheated on me. Do I, do I take him back? And I know that there's no right rule book for it, but just in terms of guidelines, or, you know, an adult child. It's like, I keep bailing them out and they say they're sorry, but here we are again. Or a girlfriend, you talked about vulnerability and community, but some women go the other way because their experience is, these women don't hold my confidence. You know, they said they were sorry, they never meant to hurt me. Do I continue to confide? You know, and so there's that, because the alter, The alternate reaction is that because forgiving and leaving myself open to the possibility of your repentance, correction, change behavior can hurt me again.

Right.

A lot of people take that sometimes healthy boundary, and it turns into jail, right? Because now I have no friends because I trust no one, right? Now this means I can't be in a relationship with any guy because the last two guys hurt me, you know. I don't want to be involved in church because the last pastor had— I mean, it can turn on you. So it's like boundaries can go too far, right? And forgiveness and doors left open can go too far, right?

So you have to find that healthy—

yes. And so what guiding principles, like, if somebody's listening and they're going Okay, well, this is great, but she talking about vulnerability, not doing it. You know what I mean? Right, right, right. Or boundaries and over— just some guiding principles for anybody who's trying to figure out, what do I do? I'm gonna forgive, I'm gonna make the decision. Oh my gosh, I'm gonna wait for God to make it real.

Right.

But in the meantime, what do I do?

Well, you know, the first thing I think is, how important is the person to you? You know, there are, there are some relationships, there are friendships that you're in, uh, people do things, um, you forgive them, you know. And it's really not even— I guess they're not close enough to really impact you, but you, you know, they did something that was offensive, let's say, but it really doesn't bother you. So it's easy just to, okay, I forgive you. And you can choose very quickly that that person isn't someone that I'm going to hold in my confidence or I'm going to spend my time with, you know? I mean, that if they're not that close to you.

I think that's important because we need to know we can choose, right?

Like, and you don't have to feel in the same step or guideline for everybody.

Do I want this relationship? And if you don't, then don't worry about it.

Right. Right. I mean, but some relationships you're stuck with, right?

Parents, siblings.

Yes. Yes, yes. You know, so it depends on how important that person is to you to make it work. And it may be they're important because of someone else in your life. So you, you make the choice of how important this relationship is. And then, but then you still can set boundaries. If it's a spouse, then you want your marriage to work, right? And so you would probably be more apt to forgive more because, I mean, and hopefully he's going to forgive more. You're going to forgive more because y'all are trying to build a life, two people coming as one, and you're so different. So there's going to be lots of opportunity to forgive in marriage, right? And you're going to do it because you want the outcome, right? Because that relationship is really important to you. Siblings, you know, you may live far away. And I think it's proximity to how often do you have to see them? How, how much do you have to forgive them? Yeah, you know, but I think the relationships that are really important, you have to choose to forgive. And, you know, I was thinking about this this morning. Forgiving the people that you really love, you know, I think that's the hardest, you know, because they can hurt you the most. Well, that. But to really forgive them and really have an open heart to them again, you know, after— if you've really been hurt and to, to be vulnerable to them again is tough, you know, but because you love them so much, you, you want to try again, right? Um, I think we have expectations way up here because of— it may be something that you would never do, right?

Right.

But that person did that, and so you're like, how could you ever do that?

Yeah, you're judging them by the standards of your own behavior and personality.

And right, I remember one of my kids said one time, um, she was, you know, uh, talking about someone had, had they done the best that they could do, you know, and she said And you know, I kept talking to her, kept talking to her, and finally I said, her level of excellence isn't my level of excellence. And then she was okay. And so it was like, I can't put my level of excellence on everybody, you know. And, and, you know, the Lord has given me convictions and maybe the Lord hadn't given some other people. Not, not sounding, uh, judgmental or Pharisaical, but some things I can't do. The Lord's not going to let me do it, you know, and I know it's wrong and he's going to beat me up if I do it, you know. But I have to communicate. And so sometimes I have lowered expectations of people, you know, and I don't, I don't know where that's biblical. I don't think that's biblical. It's just, it's just life, practical way of, you know, Well, I think it is.

I think if you look at, not explicitly, but the way Jesus was with his disciples, he was very patient in them understanding and in them learning. I mean, even he said one time, "Have y'all been with me all this time and you still don't get it?" It's like, I— but he kept showing up doing what he was supposed to do and allowing for the fact that these were human beings who were learning.

And he didn't lower the expectation.

No, but he didn't drive them in an unforgiving, judgmental way to do it like him yesterday.

Exactly.

Yeah, there was grace.

It was great in there.

Yeah, there was grace in there.

And I think the love, you know, the fact that you love your family and you want, um, and you know, one thing that the Lord has shown me, and this is the third life verse, is if your gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. You know, there, there might be people that don't know the Lord, but then also you've walked longer with the Lord, so you should be more of an example. You know, and sometimes the way I act is I'm not the example, right? You know, and I'm like, you know, the Lord is showing me, you've got to be the example. You know, they're looking at you even though you think they're not looking at you. They're looking at you, you know. So you, you trust me. You do the right thing. You do just the next right thing. Just, just do the next right thing. And whether they're doing it or not, You do it because I'm, I'm going to hold you accountable.

Hey there. I hope you are enjoying this podcast. I'm breaking in because I want to make sure that, you know, in the Inner Circle in 2026, we are focused on remembering you. That's what we're doing to kick off the year. Why? Because the whole year is about abundance and overflow. And before we can get to what's available, we have to figure out where you are, where you are with what you hold in your hand, your gifts, the opportunities and the things that God has put in your heart and in your life to do. So if you want to do that work with us to excavate what's actually available in your life that you can offer to God for what he wants to do in the future, come join me in the Inner Circle where we can remember you. You can go to thesistercircle.com/innercircle to find out more about supporting the content that I put out there while you also put yourself in a situation where you can grow. I hope to see you in inside of the inner circle in 2026. You are— when you talk about that, you know, there's a responsibility for you as an individual to forgive, to keep going back to the Lord, to be the example. It's making me think about— I keep going back to what this looks like in reverse. So, um, and I just want to pause and thank you for being willing to share your testimony because so many people who've had these experiences feel like they can't.

Yeah.

But then that leaves so many women who have those experiences feeling alone.

Right. And isolated.

And isolated.

Yeah.

But I can see, and I don't know if this was your case, but I can see how there's a whole cacophony of stuff related to you being adopted, you know, and you hear about men and women who are adopted. It's the thing, you know, did they not want me? You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Or am I, is there something about me?

Right.

That means I'm not wantable.

Right.

Too much responsibility. Right. Okay, same thing for marriage. "Okay, what about me caused my husband to feel like, you know, was I not satisfying enough? Was this about me?" You know, and so, the exact thing that God can use in this season of your life, "What are you calling me to do?" Regardless of what they do. That sense of responsibility can be damaging when you own that in spaces where it's not your fault. It has nothing to do with you.

That's true.

How did you take that off? How did you relieve yourself if that even was a struggle, of any responsibility or overly being concerned with your role in what was ultimately their decision?

I carried their, their decision a long time and blamed myself, you know, because I, I was a new Christian before I got married and And the Holy Spirit was speaking, but I didn't recognize it.

And so, meaning this is probably not the right situation, right?

And my mother, I mean, I'm going to say this, my mother was against that marriage. And she told me, you know, this is not— this, this isn't the one. I don't know.

I don't know.

And I was just I'm gonna prove to you. And that's why I stayed as long as I stayed, because y'all can't be right. We can't be right. I got to show you that this is, this is, this is different, you know. Um, but she was right. She was right. And, um, and just trusting that she loved me, and that's why, even though it hurt me to hear that, she was right. And And so because I had little hints, I blamed myself. I said, you know, you knew this, you just weren't listening. You know, the Lord was telling me— because I— because at first I was, um, kind of blaming the Lord.

Here I've tried to walk with you and you haven't made my life to ministry, right?

Um, but then when I was really honest, it was like You were, you were trying to tell me, and you are gracious and you are a gentleman. You know, the Lord just kind of— the Holy Spirit is a gentleman. He just whispers, you know. But, but I think I had quenched the Holy Spirit in that area. I just would not listen. And, and so I took that on, you know. And, and so, you know, I And it's hard to hear ahead of time, you know? I mean, and that's why we have guidelines. That's why we have the word. That's why we have people. And when you were talking about community, women that have been hurt by community, it doesn't mean that you have, you know, 10, 50 women, right? But choose wisely, you know? I mean, there's some good— we have some good ones out there. Yeah, right. And even if you like— like I sought out to meet with Lois. You know, I said, let's go to lunch. And for the first time, and we didn't go every week or every month, but, but every 3 months was enough because I could meet with someone that could, could share just enough, just enough golden nuggets to keep me going. And I had those women in place that if the bottom fell out, I knew I could go to some Godly women. Don't go to women that aren't going to point you to the Word, that aren't going to point you to who God's character really is. You know, they're going to help you when you can't see it yourself. You know? And that's why when I said Elizabeth called, you know, I told her, "Yeah, I was down, and the Lord was asking me, do I trust him?" She was like, "Yeah, when the Lord's talking to me, he won't let me sleep either." You know, but And just a funny tidbit, I didn't know Elizabeth was Lois's sister when I first came to Oakland.

Oh, really?

So Elizabeth was having us come in with Awana. She was always there when we'd check in, and she was so kind and everything. And after probably about 6 months, I was like, I wonder why she's sitting down there near Lois. But, you know, just not knowing anything. But, you know, she was another good one that I found. And so be selective in who you choose to spend your time with. You know, when people— when you— when you're with people and they constantly talking negative and, you know, racism, this or, you know, it's just— no, you know, you need people in your life that are going to point you to your relationship with with the Lord that are gonna challenge you to love him, gonna challenge you to love your children like you should, love your husband like you should. You know, just those old school rocks in the faith, that's what you need, you know. And those ladies are not going to let you down, you know. And so, yeah, I don't know if I answered the question. You didn't even go back to the question.

No, I am going to go back. Okay, because you did— you did that. I'm glad you touched on community. 'Cause I think that's so important and people understanding what you're trying to get out of it instead of being looking for something that you're not even supposed to have. But I wanna go back to the stuff that you were wearing that you felt responsible for.

Right, right.

So how did you—

That gold.

Take that off?

I don't know that I did, because I feel like part of it was my decision. Part of it was I, I saw some hints and didn't listen, and my mother was there telling me and I didn't listen. And so, um, part of it was part was my disobedience and the other part was his disobedience. So I had to own mine. And it, I mean, it's obvious he has to own his, but I was not, um—

You don't hear that every day. You do not hear that every day. When someone is clearly out of line, whether it's an extramarital affair or somebody is they are leaving a family destitute. They're not working. It's clear. And because we're so concerned with what he has done that allows me to be free, right? It is— it actually has become— and I'm specifically speaking about marriage— it actually has become, I think, a little taboo to even address a woman's role because we're so hell-bent on it can't be her that we've gone to the other degree where there's not an invitation for women to look at themselves.

Yeah.

Which I think is just interesting as you're doing this. Another person who talks about this well is Tisha.

You know Tisha?

She'll tell you, she'll tell you, these are the things that were not good in my marriage.

Yeah.

But here's how I contributed. Here's how I talked to him. Here's how I disrespected him. And here are all the reasons why I gave myself license to do so, which obviously is not your case, but I'm just saying, I respect that you own, I should not have ever even been in that situation.

Right, right. And you know, and like you said, sometimes we just don't listen 'cause we just want what we want. And so therefore I knew, where you are now, you just going to have to put on your big girl panties and walk it, you know? I mean, did you?

Do you? Did you? Probably. But what's wrong with me?

I did that about all of the abandonment, you know? My mother got pregnant and decided she didn't want me. She wrote a letter to my birth father, and he was already married, and actually his wife was pregnant with twins. So he, he had a life and, and went into this affair. So he didn't want to be part of that. Then to get adopted by a family and then that daddy leaving. And then my mother then married a man when I was in 6th grade, and, and he happened to be homosexual. And so it was just a lot because I never really saw a faithful man in, in until, um, when my mother was late in life, she met, um, her, her last husband, and he was a good man. But I felt like it was kind of too little too late for me. And, um, because even though I saw that he loved her and he, he was there and he was faithful, it was— it was— I had already experienced so much. So when Frank came into my life, it was hard to trust him.

And so you, in some shape or form, all of this time, still wear the impact of that abandonment.

And I didn't think I did because there was no relationship for 18 years. So I thought, I am good until you're tested. Until you're tested. And so then he comes into my life and I'm questioning things, and he's like, I really love you. And I'm like, prove it, prove it again, right? And again and again and again and again, you know, bless his heart. And you know, and then when I— and I think that's part of the enemy, you know, because Oftentimes when I would start to settle in, then something else would happen, you know, right? And I would back up again. Um, and I think I told you this before, I'm learning how it feels to be loved at, at 55 and 60. I don't— I didn't know what it was like to be loved like a man loves a woman. Um, and And that's, that's, that's sad, but it's beautiful, you know, that the Lord has been so good to me that at this last stage of my life, he's, he's given me this, you know. And sometimes it's more than I know what to do with, right? Because I'm like, why you love me so much? You know, I'm gonna go over here. You know, I'm used to being by myself, you know. But, um, he— the Lord knows what we need. And I needed someone that loved me, loved me, loved me. And that's who he is. And he loves the warts and he loves the— he thinks the warts are cute. And I'm like, "Woof, you— I don't know what's going on with you." But yeah, so—

It sounds to me like whatever you put on from the experiences that you had in your life that you at some point even forgot or became unaware that you were wearing, the impact of abandonment.

Right.

Even in this season.

Right.

It's coming off layer by layer.

Yes.

Still uncomfortable.

Right, right.

But it goes back to what you said before that, you know, the Lord, like, he's, he's using— not causing, but using and orchestrating all of it still for your good.

That's right. And I can't help but trust him because he does it. He's done it over and over again, you know. And even the things that I thought he wouldn't do, he's doing for me now. And Um, it's pretty amazing, you know, that I get to enjoy this at this time in my life, you know. Um, and I need this now, you know. I need this now because my kids are gone, right? I devoted my whole life to raising them, you know, and I didn't date because I didn't have time, you know. I mean, I didn't I wasn't even in the headspace. I was just like, I got it. We— I have 4 of y'all. We have— I have to raise you. We have this and this to do. And now that I have the time and need a covering and need, you know, I'm not busy. I'm, you know, life— let me say it differently. Life is full, but it's not full with the busyness of raising children. And, you know, that's constant. It doesn't— I'm in a different season. And I— and, and your children grow, grow up and they start their own lives, right? And, and he's been so good to me that I now I have a partner, you know, somebody that, that we can go and travel together and we can, you know, go—

you can make a reservation on Valentine's Day.

Yeah. Or we can sit in the media room and not, you know, I mean, yeah. So it's just God's good graces at this stage. You know, he's been, he's been good.

What would you say to the woman? Just as we wrap up, to the woman who is maybe not where you are now, who maybe doesn't have this, this chapter in her life and is still wearing and feeling the impact of abandonment, maybe has not learned the art and the decision of forgiveness and is still triggered because her life did not turn out the way she wanted it to. The decisions that other people made impacted her for decades.

Mm-hmm.

And she's still looking in kind of bound up by all of that, just to kind of a first step word of encouragement? She's heard all that you said.

Yeah.

But what would you say to her right now?

I think don't believe the fairy tale, you know? And I think that's what I did for so long. This life is hard, but the Lord gives you peace in it. You know, if it's— I mean, you might not have gone through what I've gone through, but everybody's gone through some stuff, and, and we all carry baggage, and we all are making it through. But the Lord, he makes it sweet. And so trust me that he is your priority, you know, because that's the only way. I don't know how women get through if they didn't have a relationship with the Lord. And, and there are going to be times when you're not seeking him, you know, running after him, and you need to have those women that are encouraging you, go to the Lord, go to— don't come to me to try to fix your problem. You know, oftentimes when you have counseling, they want you to tell them, what do I do? Well, I can't tell you what to do, but you go and seek the Lord and he will give you a peace about what your next steps are going to be. And so don't, don't feel bad because you're down. Live through being down. Don't feel bad because you're guilty. Don't feel bad. What I'm saying is keep walking and trusting him through it. Yeah, through it. Just keep doing the next right thing. You know, Jack Graham says, you know, you don't know what your life plan is, okay, then just do the next right thing. Just do what you know what to do. Get up, do your devotion, have your devotion with your kids, love your husband. And it's, it's kind of like the house when you're building a house and, and, um, and it's— the structure is not there, so you put the, the frame in. Well, right now the structure isn't there for you to feel like you want to forgive or feel like you want to trust or feel like you're going to be happy, but just make the frame. Do what you know to do is right now. And eventually the house will be built, right? And then it'll be normal. It all of a sudden, the things that used to bother you, you know, my father, that doesn't bother me anymore. I can, I can talk about that marriage and it doesn't bother me anymore. I even was at a funeral and I could show him a picture of the grandbaby. I mean, it's okay. I'm okay. So, and it doesn't go away in a year or 5 years. I mean, there's no 1, 2, 3, fix it. You just have to walk through it.

But trust that illustration of the house, because if you stop at the framing just because you don't see a house, right, you abort too soon, right? You just have to keep doing things that you believe will build a house, trusting that God is building a house, right? If you'll just show up and give him the raw material to work with.

Exactly. And that's all he wants. He just wants us to surrender.. And for control freaks, that's kind of hard.

But I think most of what we learn in life is about releasing control.

That we don't have any.

It's an illusion. Right. We don't have any anyway. And so all of life is learning to release what you never had to begin with.

Right. Right. That's true.

And honestly, we forgive because we were first forgiven, because we actually never were holding on to the power to judge anybody else to begin with.

Right, right, right.

So good.

We only forgive because we've been forgiven. He is good. He is good. Love you more.

Thanks for your wisdom and your honesty and for being my friend.

Yes.

And for being my sister.

Isn't that crazy?

Yeah.