Hosanna Wong on Rhythms for Reconnecting with Jesus

Hosanna Wong is one of the most unique, direct, confident, courageous, creative, encouraging voices I've ever heard. I've heard her speak, um, like deliver a message. I've also heard her speak and deliver a spoken word piece, and then I've seen her in person more than a few times, and the presence that you command, the power that you bring, Hosanna, to any conversation, um, is always present, whether you intend to bring it, if it's— you're wired to bring it, or if you can't help but bring it. It's just who you are. Um, I'm so happy to have you on the podcast today. Thanks for joining me, Fred.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm blessed. I've been looking forward to this.

I know, I know. So we— I had Hosanna— I always keep this list of people who I want to to. And Hosanna, you've been on the list for a while, but then, uh, we, we attempted to do it one day, we had some technical difficulties, so we're re-recording today. The reason why this is so cool though is because originally my reason was I just wanted to talk to you. Now it's like I just want to talk to you and you've got a book coming out, and so, um, I'm excited to make sure we include You Are More Than You've Been Told as a part of our conversation today. Um, I think it's so important that when we hear the message, affirming messages that tell us to walk as though we're worthy, to walk as though we're loved, to, um, be comfortable in the skin that we're in, to, um, to, to love our souls, to love our bodies, to, to take care of our mental health, all these things that say like value you. And I think our culture is rife with those messages right now. Um, the problem is sometimes the people that are delivering those messages, it seems like it comes naturally to them. So if somebody who is beautiful and tall and thin and well-known and high following and well-connected tells me, you just have to believe in your worth, it's very easy for someone else looking in to say, that's easy for you to say. Like, you don't have my background, you don't have my story, you don't have my history, you don't have the challenges that I'm facing. So I know that for you, a, a big part of your messaging, yes, you believe in God and yes, you believe in the messaging and the power that comes to us when we believe what God says about us, but you're spinning that power out of your mouth in the variety of places that I've seen you in because of your own, wrestling with, reckoning with activating that power in your own life. Can you talk just a minute about just, you know, going back a little bit in your life, why you had, um, seeds of inferiority sown in your life and what it has looked like, just so we can get to know you a little bit for those who don't already know you. What did it look like for you to agree with power?

Hmm. Yeah, that's a great question. I've battled with knowing who I am and living the life God's created me to live for most of my life, struggling with knowing who I really am. And I think it started in my childhood. I think for most of us it does. Maybe lies that we heard growing up. And my background is, you know, I grew up on the streets of San Francisco. My dad battled with a heroin addiction. He fought in a gang. He had bullet holes alongside his calves from the last time he ran from the police, from the last time he robbed someplace. And someone introduced him to Jesus, and Jesus changed his whole life. And my dad ended up starting an outreach to those living without homes and battling with addiction on the streets of San Francisco. And that's how I grew up. And people brought their alcohol bottles and people brought their needles. That's how I learned church. I learned later in life when other people said they were also raised in church, we were not talking about the exact same thing. The same thing. But that's where I learned that Jesus could save anyone's soul and redeem anyone's story and would use anyone who would say yes. And that's where I learned the art of spoken word poetry. You know, all my friends on the streets did it. It was not unique. It was not different. It was actually a thing all my friends had in common. But then when my dad got cancer and passed away when I was 18 years old, I really, I think that's the first time I remember really losing who I was. Who was I without him? Who was I without this ministry? So as I was searching for a way to share about Jesus, the only thing I knew how to do was spoken word poetry. And I think at the time I would have thought that it was less than, that this method was not good enough, uh, to be used by God to share about him. But I think as I've gotten older, I've started to realize the power of commonality, how important it is the things that we have in common with the people in our lives, the things we have in common in our real relationships, how God often wants to use those exact things as a gateway, as a catalyst to share about who He really is. And so now I see how, because we had art in common, it was the thing that bonded us. It was how when I started performing spoken word poetry in the underground slam poetry scene in San Francisco, my friends might not have been Jesus followers, but we all had this art in common. We respect each other's art, and that's how I got to share about Jesus with people. But as I got older, I just, I had this, I believed this lie that I was not enough, that my background was not enough, that my story was not enough, that my family was not enough, that my heritage was not enough. As I started performing spoken word poetry in churches and recovery ministries and prisons and conferences, I quickly noticed that No one else on the bill looked like me. I did not hear other people with my story because of whatever environment I was in. I did not hear people with my kind of background. And now I know that there were many people that were raw and real about their backgrounds and maybe shared in some of the things I felt, but I had not seen them. And so I believed this lie that I had to water down who I was. In order to fit into what I presumed was the mold. I see it as a kid being the only Chinese girl in my class and learning early how to do my eye makeup in such a way to make my eyes look bigger or look the same as my friends. I see it as I am hiding my leftovers from dinner at school because I don't want people to see this food that's a little different that I secretly love, but I don't want to be made fun of for. I see the ways in my childhood that I tried to water down who I was to be accepted. But as I got older, I see, even as I was sharing about Jesus in my everyday life, personally, professionally, how I also was trying to water down who I was to be effective, and how I thought that maybe the details of my life would be walls. And I watered down my story, didn't want to share about my background, my, my, my family's ministry to people on the streets, um, the sins I dealt with, the questions I had, the struggles I had. I think many people can relate to feeling like you have to water down a little bit about yourself, change a little bit about who you are to fit into the places that were supposed to be the most safe for you. And even early on in my spoken word ministry, um, I did not go by Hosanna Wong. There were a handful of leaders who I actually believe loved me and supported me and wanted to me succeed, who said to me that they thought my heritage would stand in the way of me being effective in the places and spaces I felt called to.

Like, they suggested that out loud? Like, what did they say?

Yeah, like they said out loud, "Have you thought about not going by Hosanna Wong? Because I think that might stand in the way." But they didn't say it in a mean way. They didn't say it in a hurtful way. It felt like it was, "Help me." Like, "I don't know this." Yeah. And I don't know this for sure, but I've thought a lot about this, and there's a big part of me that wonders if if maybe they had believed that own lie in their own life, that they also had felt like they had to water down some of their story or details to do what they felt God called them to do. If maybe it was something they really believed or something they had believed in themselves that they were giving to me, not meant to be hurtful, but meant to be almost strategic. Like, you know what, if you water down this part of your life, maybe God would use you more. I have every reason to believe that they supported me and thought that it was smart and wise and godly. And they directly told me, "Have you thought about going by something else besides Hosanna Wong?" 'What else could you go by? Could you go by just Hosanna? Could you go by— what else could you do? I think some of your background might stand in the way of doing what you feel called to do and what we think God is calling you to do.' And I think that they were misinformed in their own lives, perhaps. But I believed them, and I owned that, and I thought that was smart too. So if you would have known my spoken word ministry 12 years ago, you wouldn't have known me by Hosanna Wong. I went by the pen name Hosanna Poetry. I thought in many ways that if I watered down my background heritage, my upbringing, and what I had really been through, the insecurities in my real life, if I could shape-shift myself into what I presumed was the mold, maybe then I'd be enough to be accepted and effective. Maybe then I'd be better to be used by God. And I can see now how that is a lie that the enemy hopes that we believe. He hopes that we believe the lie that we have to look like someone else or have someone else's story or have someone else's background in order to be enough to be loved by Him or used by Him. And I think the enemy knows what he does not want us to know, which he knows that if we found out how loved we were and how chosen we were and how made for this specific moment in time we were, if we knew that God actually wants to use our background and our stories to show the real hope of Jesus, He doesn't want us to find out that God wants to use who we really are in our specific details to show the real love of God. So he wants us to doubt who we are and try to look like other people or be like other people. And it's been years of my life going through a healing journey of realizing, um, some of the lies I've believed and what some of God's truths are to those lies. You know what I mean?

You know, I think it's so interesting. I mean, I do agree when I said, did they say that out loud? I was thinking about the part like, your heritage might be a problem. And that part, I can totally see how that's not what's directly, boldly said, but that's just kind of the unintentional, later on you can see that. But what is said is, we want you to be successful. We don't want something to get in the way. I mean, then this is not abnormal. Like people that are, um, musical, in any kind of form of the arts, often, you know, you write a book by a pen name or, um, you know, you're an actor and you have a stage name. Like, it's not that far of a cry, but for you, um, because it's tied to your last name, which indicates heritage, it can sow a seed of, okay, but what's wrong with that? You know? Um, I think what's so interesting is that we, we know, again, I think in this season, this cultural season, we know that even on social media, which tells us a lot of lies, one of the things that is truth, sometimes to a negative degree, be the fullness of who you are. And so everybody's out here in these streets being the whole fullness. But when you, but when you, but when you look at the context of that spiritually, God is inviting us to, to bring our unique story and bring our unique heritage. Heritage and bring all these things. But we do get feedback, um, sometimes that, yeah, who we fully are— so whether that's your history, your story, culture, race, language, vernacular, um, you know, experience— we can get feedback from the church, from people who love Jesus, that that's not welcome here. So I'm just curious, have you run into that? And, and by that I mean whether we're talking about heritage, whether we're talking about your story, whether we're talking about your background, your, your family's, um, history with the Lord and upbringing and ministry. Have you ever brought in any way the fullness of who you are to a space, invited and feeling invited by the Lord to do that? And felt like there was a part of you that wasn't welcome?

Yes, often. I think there's a part of— yes, I think I'm in environments a lot where there are— it's a mix, it's a mixed bag. There are people, um, who maybe are part of why I believe this lie that I have to fit into some kind of mold, and then there's people who are empowering me, who want to see very, uh, who want to see different voices talk about Jesus so more people can know about who God is and, and see themselves represented. So I think often it's a mixed bag. I think I feel both in every room I'm in, even now. Yes.

What happened?

Does that surprise you?

No, no. Oh, I was like, yes. But I mean, I wanna— no, I wanna clearly say that because people will listen and think, okay, she's a— she's, she's arrived.

Oh, you know what I mean?

Like, so, so someone who speaks with power, someone who has a gift, like you have a gift, someone who is on a plane, you know, 40 weeks a year or doing whatever you do to get to an event. And they hear you speak with power or they listen to your spoken word or they follow you on social and they see what you bring. The assumption is, oh, she figured it out. Like it's a done deal. Like she's locked in.

And so right now everybody loves me and everyone's applauding me all the time for being who I am.

And it's like, no, but you're right.

People's opinions— like, people's opinions maybe did not change, or people's, you know, the, the volume of people's, uh, opposition maybe did not change, but how it controls me and how it affects me and how it changes how I obey God, that has changed.

And that's why I wanted to clarify, is it still now? Because my next question is, yeah, so when you're in the rooms where you feel the applause and you feel a little of aversion maybe, um, what is happening? What happens in your head or in your heart so that the negative input doesn't control you? What do you do with that when you feel it? Because I don't know about you, but for me, it's not just what's happening in my head, it's what's happening in my body. Like, I physically can find myself shrinking back, sitting down, occupying less space because I don't feel the welcome mad. And so it doesn't stop me from doing what I have to do. I can still, you know, have the conversation, get out on the stage, whatever. But how I operate in that space can easily change if I'm not aware of what's happening and if I don't make a conscious decision to agree with what God says about me. So I'm just curious, when you feel that happening, what do you do in that moment when you have both dynamics happening in the same room?

Right. Well, good news is I do this perfectly every time. So, so I'm the one to guide you. But, um, I will, I will say this, sometimes You know, I used to take it so personally, and so I would be in a spiral of self-defeat. And because I believed the lie that I was not enough or unwanted or unworthy of love, I lived so many years of my life trying to prove myself, prove myself to people. And that was the wrong battle. And I think there are times when I still take it personal because I— and, and I get sad and I get hurt. But more times than not, now in the spaces I'm in, I just feel a sense of this isn't about me. Um, I don't take it personal as if they're against me, but I'm, I'm a child of God and handmade by God and placed by God in this position. And so instead of me feeling like they're fighting against me and I want to fight against them, instead of feeling like I'm not enough and I have to prove myself to them, instead it makes me maybe sad of the broken lens they have of the world and wanting to be a part of the solution and hoping that I represent something to people, you know, that maybe they haven't seen before. Like for me, it used to be, they're fighting against me, I'm fighting against them. But now I have a— I've refocused what my battle is. And I'm fighting for people far from God to know him. I'm fighting for people in the room who don't feel seen to feel seen. I'm fighting for a generation to know they can be who God has called them to be and do what God has called them to do. So instead, I'm sad. About their lens, and I'm bummed out. But on my best days, I don't let it affect me personally. I just try to remember what I am here to do, and which is not to represent myself or my feelings, but to do what God's called me to do and fight the right battle. Um, but I will be honest, every now and then, every now and then, I'm, I'm sad personally, and it gets me personally, and I have to kind of just bring that before God and let him heal that again.

I love that, um, idea of refocusing. You know, you hear about, uh, I've heard many people talk about humility and it's not about, um, thinking less of yourself in a negative way. It is just thinking less about yourself and thinking more about something that's bigger than you. And the refocusing, um, helps you not to get snowballed by all the things that really have nothing to do with you. Um, when you talked about refocusing, it made me think of a conversation I recently had with, um, Donsheree Wilkerson, um, DC, about having her head down in ministry. And she said for, for 5 years when her and her husband were, um, uh, entering the ministry with her in-laws and he was, I believe, working as a youth pastor, she said they made the decision for 5 years they were just going to be head down. They weren't gonna move if they got other offers. They weren't gonna let anything take them away from focusing on the church. They weren't gonna let hurt and other people's opinions distract them from what they do. They were there to do, and they just put their head down. And she's said that numerous times. That has resonated with me, this idea of being head down. And if you look up just enough to know, am I where I'm supposed to be? It's kind of like driving a car. You do look in your side, you know, your side mirrors. You do look in your rearview mirrors, but you gotta stay focused on what's in front of you. And that kind of keeps you grounded. Um, and that's what I kind of hear you saying. You've decided where you're gonna focus. And so if you get a little off task or off kilter because there's something else happening in a room, the answer for you is just to refocus. Why am I here? What am I doing? Who am I here for? Don't get distracted by the things that wanna pull me, um, off my course. And I think that that's really, that's really important. So in the middle of this, in the middle of how I got to feel inferior, what happened that made me think that all of me is not welcome and okay, I don't do it perfectly, but I refocus. In between that, you had to learn something. You had to learn, um, or revisit what God said about you. Um, I know that when we answer to names like victim or being abandoned or being worthless, that can become a habit. And we have to remember instead that God calls us his friend, that we're his children, that we can operate as his messenger, that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. But what did it look like for you to learn what God said about you? Rehearse what God said about you and to operate that you believed, like, what he said about you? What did you do to attach yourself to different definitions that serve you now when you're in those spaces where you have to— we have to call them into being, call them back to memory?

Yeah, I think this journey of healing really started for me in 2017. Uh, it was a season of immense loss for me and my husband, one of the hardest seasons we'd ever been in, loss physically, financially, relationally, and I lost who I was. And up until that point, I had lived, um, lived to please people, lived defined by what other people said about me. And I— it all came to a head, and I lost who I was when the people who I thought would stay didn't, when the people who I thought would defend me didn't. All of a sudden, all the people who I defined myself by, when their opinions changed, I completely lost who I was. And I really had a reckoning, a line-in-the-sand moment when I realized I needed to choose to fight to know who I really was. Lisa Bevere, another mutual friend of ours, said this to me. She said, "Trials have the power to transform you from who you are into who you long to be. But somewhere along the way, you learned the lie that you could be a hero without engaging in a battle." And it changed my life. Lisa Bevere, filled with truth and zero chill.

Zero, zero chill. She's like, if you don't want the truth, don't ask me to come.

She loved me too much to let me stay that way. And she was right that I wanted to be a hero because I'm a good person. You use the word victim. 100%. I, I should be a hero because I'm entitled to have some goodness in my life. I should be a hero because I've known God most of my life. I should be a hero because healing and wholeness should just fell into my lap, but I did not want to engage in the battle for my life. I just wanted to lay on my couch and watch TV and just wallow in my wounds and self-defeat. But she was right. I was not going to be a hero without engaging in battle. So I had to fight to spend real time with God. It looked like me going out of my way to really talk to Him and get real with Him and honest with Him and confess to Him and repent from things, to really bring Him into wounds, um, let Him heal things I never thought could be healed, and a fight to spend time with God and to fight to read what He said about me. I just was so mad at him and I was so mad at how— I was so mad at the circumstances around me that I just didn't want to talk to him. I didn't want to open up His Word because I was mad. And I was growing more and more disconnected from Him and from myself the more that I put Him at bay. And I needed to fight for who I really was. So it looked like practically fighting to spend time with God, fighting to be in his word, not just reading it but engaging with what he said about me, fighting to talk to him and, and be real and get very honest about what I was feeling and going through. And then I started memorizing names that God gave me, trying to make his voice the loudest voice in my life. I knew all the other things people thought about me really well. I did not know what God said about me more than what perhaps other people's opinions had been about me. And we something more stable than what we're feeling. We need something more stable than what is trending. Like you were even saying earlier about some of us, you know, the world tells us, you know, be the fullness of yourself, you're all that. It's like we need to have something more stable than the days when we feel like we're nothing and we're worthless and defeated, and something more stable than the days when we feel like we're all that, we're better than everybody else, and we've got it all together. We need something certain, stable, and true that is beyond how you might be feeling today. Day, what God really says about you. And I learned something that I hope to show everyone, which is that you deserve to stop seeing yourself through the broken lens of other people and to start seeing yourself through the lens of God. And when you see how God sees you, you will discover who you really are and who you've always been. And so I went on a journey trying to see myself through God's lens. And the things he said about me might have been a little different from what other people said about me, but in that fight, I started to get reconnected to God and then reconnected to who I really was.

You know, I think that one of the truths we have to just accept— and if we would just accept it, we would be so much further ahead— everybody Everybody has a broken lens. Everybody. And the problem is, is we don't think people do. So that's why we get disappointed. That's why we have expectations people can't meet. That's why we're surprised when somebody says something about us and we're like, do you not know me? Like, because we assumed that if they knew us, that they actually saw us clearly. It's because we don't walk into every situation, not assuming that people, uh, are incapable of loving us well. But we don't assume that no matter how good they are at loving us well, no matter how much they love God, no matter how much they love his word, no matter how much they are for us, they still have a broken lens. We have a broken lens. And the only lens, the only one that sees us clearly and that calls us into the truth of who we were designed and created to be is God's. Anybody else, anybody else's lens, anybody else's eye, that we are looking into seeking ultimate worth and value, the lens is broken. It's just at some point you'll realize that. And so I love that idea, that picture of the lens and God's lens for us. Um, you mentioned, you know, not wanting to read the Bible, not wanting to pray, and I'm just, you know, I, I'm assuming that because of your trip to where you are now and just the people that you've had the wonderful opportunity to engage with because of your art, because of your talent and your gifting, that there's a lot of people you run into who are just like, I don't get it. You know what I mean? Like, I don't necessarily want to call myself an atheist. I don't know that I like church. I definitely don't get the Bible. If I pray, I don't know if he hears me. Um, what do you typically tell people people who are not churched, not— or churched, because there's a lot of church people who are good about listening to a sermon but will never crack the word for themselves, um, who don't get it. I pray, I don't think that God hears me, you know. I don't think he answers my prayers. I pray, it doesn't feel like anybody's listening. I open the Bible, it doesn't make sense to me. Um, so the assumption is church, religion, the way it works for other people, it doesn't work for me. Where do you encourage them to start? Where do you— what is the first step when you run into people who are not going to don the doors of the church and, you know, crack open the word every Sunday?

This is such a great question. How many days do we have to unpack this together? How many days do people want to hear us talk to each other? Um, I have, I have two thoughts. Um, one is I think that we aren't crazy if we feel that way. If we feel like, I've been reading the Word of God, but I get nothing out of it. I've been trying to pray to God, but I don't, I don't get anything out of it. Like, I don't think we're crazy because for some of us there has been such an emphasis on the spiritual disciplines as the way to be saved, or as these, you know, uh, religious practices as the whole point, as opposed to them being a means to an end, as opposed to them being the way that you connect with God and get closer to Jesus. And so, of course, then we're exhausted and depleted, and these aren't really connecting us to God if we see them in that way. And I think one of the first things I want to tell people in that, um, that have that lens is your relationship with Jesus doesn't have to look like anyone else's relationship with Jesus. It just has to be real and honest and authentic. An ongoing one-on-one relationship is what Jesus wants to have with you. And you don't have to live in the pressure of reading the Bible like your mama did, or praying to God at the time of day your grandma did, or reading through— that's 5 AM.

You know, the holy hour is 5 AM. It's 5 AM. It's before the light of day comes up.

On Fridays it's at 4 because of all the sinning.

Yeah.

Or like, this is the translation my pastor said I have to read. Yes. Like, I think some of us have so many expectations of the right way to read the Bible or the right way to pray or the right way to be in community. And we think if we cannot do it that way, then we are not going to do it at all. And I think that that is one of the enemy's favorite ways to disconnect us from God is by making us believe the lie that there is only one way to have rhythms that connect you with Jesus, one time of day, one day of the week. I hope to help people release the expectation they have on their time with God and be rid of the assumptions they have of what a relationship with Jesus looks like so that they can have a real one-on-one relationship with Jesus for real. And so that's one of the first things I try to tell people, people who are new to Jesus or people who have known God a long time and they are ready for a fresh way to connect with Jesus, is that you need to start looking at really your life style and your learning style, the time of day you wake up or the time of day that's best for you to engage in your rhythms and find a real way for you to connect with Jesus yourself. Because the answer to, "I don't understand the Bible and I'm reading it as much as I can and as fast as I can, but I'm getting nothing out of it," is not, "Well, keep reading that translation longer and faster and harder." Like, the answer is not keep doing it the way that doesn't connect you with God. Let's find a way for you to really engage with what God says about you, to talk to God, and to get real with God. Let's have a self-audit of our time and our rhythms and really find how you will have a real relationship with Jesus. So that's one thought I have. But I have another thought about how I've learned how to reconnect with Jesus in a fresh way. What do you think?

Go, go. The conversation that I'm having with Hosanna is super refreshing. And the reason why is because we all connect with God differently. You know, there are some people that are going to connect with God in song. They're going to connect with God because they're creating something, exploring their own creativity. Many of us connect with God as we have devotions with a study help, or crack open the Bible, or, you know, do that as the sun comes up with our cup of tea. Um, some people enjoy creating with God by being in creation, being with God, and enjoy connecting with God by being amongst the things he made. There's no right way, but there is an important principle of making room to connect with God. What's important for you to know is that you were created— you were created with connection in mind. God did not create you— no matter how much you enjoy being by yourself, to be a solo act for the entirety of your existence. You were created first to connect with him and then to connect with others. And when you ignore your connection with God, when you ignore the importance of connecting with people, you are not living as abundantly as you should be. Not only that, but you don't even really know who you are. You were designed to connect with God so that the pieces that are missing, the things you don't even know about yourself, the things you have questions about, questions about your life. You were designed for connection so that you actually could not live your best life without him. And so important that you connect with God to know more about yourself, because there are simply some things he knows about you that you don't know yet. And that doesn't matter if you're— it doesn't matter if you're 25 or 45 or 65. There are some keys that only get unlocked when you're intimate with the one who actually created Connection matters, and making time to connect with God and to connect with others, that matters too. This is one of the reasons why I'm hosting the Sister Circle Retreat in October in California, up in the hills and around some water, because I realize that making space for deep, long connectivity with God and unique connectivity with other people gets hard to do when you're ripping and running from work and picking up kids. And listen, I know, I know that you only have so many days for vacation left. And I know that you got to figure out who has to watch your kids. I know that you have to decide to shut down other things in your life or not show up for the things that you volunteer for. I know that putting a pause on your life, whether that's 15 minutes in the morning or whether that's a few days far away, it takes intentionality. And I want you to know that that's why we're doing the retreat. I want to invite you to come with me. And if you're interested in learning more, or you've heard me talk about it before and you're like, you know what, Chrystal, you're right. Let me make the space. All you have to do is go to thesistercircle.com/retreat. All the information you need will be there. And if you're so led, you can sign up at that link too. Listen, Hosanna Wong, not only is she amazing, but there's a book that she's written that I want you to pick up, uh, as well. If you're enjoying this conversation as much as I am, it's called You Are More Than You've Been Told. And why this is so important for you to know is because we spend so much of our life trying to figure out who we are based on what other people have said, based on what our parents said, based on what our teacher said, based on what our husband has said, or maybe it was that boyfriend, or maybe it was that first husband. We spend so much time trying to figure out who we are. Not only is my podcast with Hosanna a great resource for you, but her book, You Are More Than You've Been Told, is a great resource too. And that's why I do the podcasts. This is why I'm here. I bring friends on. This is why I write books, and this is why I hold retreats. Because for the entirety of your life, you will be listening to what someone says about who you are and what you're supposed to do. And for the entirety of your life, it is the enemy's intention to get in the way, to have you listen to other voices, to have you doubt your own power, to have you not believe that you are who God says you are. So all of the things we do, from a listen to a podcast or retreat away in, in the mountains, they're all designed for you to pay attention, for you to listen to the one who created you and what he is saying about your life, who you are, and what you're supposed to do with it. And listen, I cannot wait to get back to the conversation. So I want you to think about this, okay? Who are you, and who are you believing when people or circumstances speak to that answer. If you can't answer that with 100% certainty, that I am who God says I am and I can do what he says I can do, and you know what that is because you know what the gifts are that God has put into you, then you need to do some work. And if you need to do some work, that's okay. For you to talk to a friend, talk to your spouse, study the word, go see your therapist, come to the mountains me or finish this here podcast right now. So let's jump back into my conversation with Hosanna.

Are you sure?

Okay, I'm sure.

Well, this has really been life-changing for me, as you know, on my journey of healing since 2017, after that I had that really painful season. You know, I wrote this spoken word piece called "I Have a New Name" that was declaring all these names that God gives us, all this scripture, what God says about us. And God used it and God breathed on it, but I still wasn't done being healed from some of the wounds in my life. And I still had not invited God into some of the deepest places in my heart. And there were some things I just resigned I could never be healed from. And I have been on a journey of trying to figure out how to actually reconnect with God and reconnect with who I really am. And this, um, This one picture has really changed my life. And I was in this season in a spiral of self-defeat, disconnect from myself, disconnected from God. And I was trying to think of like, how do I know who I am and live like it every single day, right? Not just know that I'm loved, wanted, chosen, masterpiece, but how do I actually live like this is true? How does this actually change my life? And I knew growing up in church, people would say, You know, your identity is in Christ, and the way to know who you are is to abide. And I'm like, I'm down. Yes, abide. Can someone please show me how? Like, since someone explained this to me, I'm a hopes-up, hands-raised person, but more than anything, I'm a hands-on kind of girl. Can someone please give me the tools? So when I realized I was so disconnected from God, I wondered, what is the practical way that I can reconnect with him, abide? To understand what it means that my identity is in Christ. Does that make sense? Sometimes we hear some terms so much that maybe we have not tried to dig into what they mean or how they can transform our lives. So I called one of my friends who works in vineyards. She's worked in vineyards for the better part of her adult life in New Zealand, Oregon— like real vineyards, like growing grapes, like metaphorical No, no, like soils, like weather patterns. Like, she has worked deep in the dirt, and she has worked in vineyards for years, and she's not even a Jesus follower yet. She's not a Jesus person. She's one of my best friends. And, um, when I called her, I just knew she wouldn't just give me the churchy answer, but she would give me like an agricultural answer, right? And so I called her and I said, hey, can you help me with something? She knew the season I was in, and said, "There's this verse in the Bible. Jesus says He's like a vine and we're like branches, and we just have to stay connected to Him, abide in Him. We'll bear great fruit, but apart from Him, we can accomplish nothing. I'm really having trouble understanding it. Could you tell me anything about the relationship between branches and vines? Do all the branches need to live is to be connected to the vine? What about when storms come? What about unexpected weather patterns? What then?" And she said to me this, she said, Yes, technically all the branches need to live is to be connected to the vine, but really they need a trellis. They need a structure so that they can get even sunlight, so they won't rot or mold, so they can flourish to their full potential. They really need a structure. And I said, okay, but all that the branches need to live is just to be connected to the vine, right? Even without a structure. And she said, Yes, all they need to live is to be connected to the vine, but without a trellis, without a structure, they will live their lives constantly weighed down, and they will fight an uphill battle they do not have to fight. Eventually, that weight will weigh them down so much to the point where they will grow disconnected from the vine. And in that moment, I understood something I had never understood before, because I've already I've chosen Jesus, and I love Jesus, and I'm a follower of Jesus, but I feel so weighed down that I am growing disconnected from myself and disconnected from God. I promise you, I am fighting an uphill battle that I do not have to fight. And I realized that in order to abide, to connect and stay connected, I really needed a structure. I needed a trellis. I needed to reclaim some rhythms in my life. Some spiritual disciplines to help me be connected and stay connected to Jesus. And so I could share with you 4 that have transformed my life, that have helped me connect with God in a way these past few years that I did not know was possible. But I also want to say this: I think so many of us did grow up in— perhaps grew up in a Christian context or religious setting that maybe did put the emphasis on the spiritual disciplines. As the way to salvation. But spiritual disciplines are not the point. They're a means to an end. The whole point is to be close to Jesus. The whole point is to stay connected to Jesus. There's no life in the structure. There's only life in the source, in the vine, in Jesus himself. A structure is not where you get your salvation. Salvation only comes from the source. But we might need a structure to help us carry weights we were not meant to carry and keep us connected to Jesus. So the whole point is staying connected to Jesus. And we could dive into any of them that you think might resonate with you or resonate with your listeners. But in context to your greater question about how to help people that might have expectations on these rhythms, the 4 rhythms that I've been reframed in my life and have helped me reconnect with Jesus is a rhythm of scripture, a new way to engage with God's Word God's words, finding the time of day and the way to engage that maybe is different from my husband or from my mom, but the way that I actually engage with God's words every day, finding a way that actually helps you connect with Jesus. The second one was a rhythm of prayer, me learning disciplines within prayer, like solitude, like praying specific prayers over specific wounds and saying thanks, learning gratitude. A rhythm of prayer has probably been one of the most transformative things in my life these the past few years. And, um, third was a, a rhythm of rest, learning what Sabbath actually looks like in my real life, what Jesus actually said about Sabbath. And I think for me, I've seen how so many other people practice it, or maybe I was taught it wrong or I assumed wrong, but I missed living a life of rest for so many years because I did not get what Jesus actually said about rest and freedom and Sabbath. So a rhythm of rest has transformed my marriage, uh, in ways that I did not know it could be transformed these past few years, reclaiming Sabbath in our lives. And the fourth is the rhythm of real community. Within that, I've learned a rhythm of confession, um, getting honest and real, vocally confessing to people in my life. The Word of God says that when you confess to one another, you'll be healed and whole. There are some things in our lives we won't be healed from if we do not vocally confess them. And then the next one is celebration, uh, reclaiming that celebration is something that God wants us to partake in. It's something Jesus exemplified in His life, in His rhythms, that, um, celebration is a spiritual discipline. And so these four things, a rhythm of scripture, rhythm of prayer, rhythm of rest, and a rhythm of real community. Underneath that, within real community, is confession and celebration. By having a structure in my life of how I practice these things monthly, weekly, daily, it's helped me not put an emphasis on the structure, but has truly helped me stay connected to Jesus. And what I've learned for anyone else who might resonate with me about struggling with your identity, is that you will know more of who you really are when you spend real time with the one who knows you best. So the answer to our identity questions really is a real intentional ongoing relationship with Jesus.

That is so good. Um, and you, you ended right where I wanted to ask my next question, particularly about the rhythm of rest. Um, before we started recording, you told me that 42 out of 52 weeks a year you're busy on the weekends speaking, doing spoken word. Um, I have a sense that based on how your family did street ministry, um, and when people are passionate about something, um, about anything, but particularly when the passion for their love for Um, the Lord comes out of their own story of, um, hurt and being lost, and they just so passionately want other people to know Jesus. Um, the amount of work and commitment and, um, willingness to show up, be the first there and the last to leave. I have a feeling that you come from a background of of whatever it takes, however long I have to be here, souls are at stake, you know. And so even if it's not like a workaholic situation, it's like passionate. I passionately want people to come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. And so because of that, we do all the things all the time. Um, yeah, and I'm making an assumption there, you can tell me if I'm wrong. My question is, assuming that part of your background upbringing or maybe your own design because of your, um, you know, you talked about pleasing people. My assumption here is that rest is not your normal rhythm. So when you talk about rhythms and that being one of the key rhythms, spiritual disciplines, I would love to you— for you to tell me two things. One is, why has rest, or functioning with rest as a spiritual discipline, been a problem for Like, why is it an issue for you? And then what do you now do? And I, I know that what I heard, what you said before, everybody has to find their own rhythms. We can't do it to everybody else, but I think it'd be very helpful for people, even if they don't do it like you, to know what it looks like for you to have a picture in their mind of what is working for you right now for rest. So why is it a problem?

Yes.

And what have you done to put rest in there in a rhythmic way?

100%. Rest has been a lifelong struggle for me. You know, my dad was the first, you know, saved in our family. And so, um, while my dad was a good dad and a good parent, I do often think that maybe he struggled with being a child, a child of God, because he got saved from a life of addiction, and then he went straight into ministry. And I think rhythms such as rest were really foreign to him. Like you said, you know, he wanted to see souls saved. So we're there early in the morning, we're there late at night, and we get to do this, we get to do this, and we're killing ourselves trying to serve people. And rest was not something my dad valued. And we didn't have family vacations. We served all the time. And it wasn't until the end of my dad's life where he started to value being with his family and finding rhythms of rest. And in the end, he got that a little bit, um, he got that right. And I just think he was a good parent, but he didn't yet know how to be a child. But he was first-generation Christian, so he was, he was learning. Um, and for me, I adapted that, just feeling like my whole life is about working, and the more I do, the more successful I am, the more valuable I am, but also the more obedient to God I am. Like, the more I do, the holier I am. And I adapted this lifestyle of not resting, always doing, but then I started to find my identity in what I did. And I never felt loved or valued without doing one thing. I would feel lazy or worthless if I took an entire day off. And I really struggled. I've struggled with that for years. And when I married my husband, it was probably the first time I recognized that how much I worked was not a badge of honor. It was a problem. I was finding my identity in what I did. And serving God and serving His church is a good thing, but I was making it a God thing. I was placing that above my real one-on-one relationship with Jesus. And my husband said to me, um, early in our marriage, he said to me, um, Hosanna, you work really hard for God. 'And it's amazing.' And I was like, 'That's right, it is.' And he said, 'You work really hard for God and it's amazing, but I don't know if you enjoy God.' Mm. And it really convicted me. And I, I had not even considered, um, I had not even considered that God liked me or wanted to enjoy me or hang out with me. And also, if you think about it, my career started in broken word ministry, you know, really young. So also, so many of my relationships were transactional. So many of my friendships were because of things I did for people. Like, there was a reason why I believed that I was valuable based on what I gave people or what I produced. And yet, when my husband said those words to me, it really convicted me. And so I've been on this journey of trying to figure out, how do I obey God fully? And I used to think that resting took me away from the call of God. But now I see that rest is a part of what God calls us to do, resting in Him, to know we are loved by Him without doing one thing. How can I obey God fully? And so I've been on a journey of trying to have a structure of rest because I will not naturally rest. This is why— this is perhaps one of the best ones that's out there. It has to be planned. It has to be written down. People have to hold me accountable. It just will not happen unless I schedule for it. But I will tell you, you know, back to the analogy of the trellis, is that when I have felt the most disconnected from myself and the most disconnected from God, irritable, offendable, I can look at my structure or my month or the past couple months and see that I had not been resting, having actual rest. Um, really in God and doing things that bring my soul to life. And so that is why I think I struggle with it. Um, a lot of it is my own doing, but I will also say that we live in a culture that praises people who work hard, nonstop hustle. And we live in a culture that perhaps perpetuates this lie that the more you do, the more valuable you are. And so something that I've had to do to reclaim rest in my life, to actually live in the rhythm that God created for us and the rhythm that Jesus lived himself, is in my life's trellis, in the structure I have of monthly, weekly, and daily routines. Um, my husband and I practice Sabbath, which is 24 hours, right, one day a week when we're not doing or producing or getting ahead, but we're enjoying each other and God and the things we we already have, worshiping God and, and knowing we're loved without doing one thing. And I have daily rhythms and weekly rhythms and monthly rhythms of rest. But Sabbath specifically, I will tell you how we do in our real lives, because like you mentioned, we have a full schedule. And my husband and I don't have the same schedules every week, and we certainly don't have the same schedules every month. And so what it looks like for us is this. At the beginning of every month, we look at the calendar and we plan ahead for that month. Now, I know for many people, perhaps rest or Sabbath is a very specific day from a very specific time to another specific time. And I think that's awesome for people that can do that. And maybe there's a part of me that hopes to be like that. But I think because I believed the lie that was the only way to obey God's command of rest and the only way to practice rest of my life like Jesus did. I dismissed it altogether. And instead, we just had to look at our calendar beginning of every month, and we'll say, "This week I'm out of town Saturday and Sunday, so Friday we are sabbathing together. Okay, the next week I'm out of town these days. Okay, Tuesday is our Sabbath. Okay, the next 2 weeks it'll be Saturdays together. That's when we're having a Sabbath." And it's planning ahead. For rest, planning ahead to have a structure to stay connected with Jesus like my life depends on it, like my mind depends on it. This is worthy of having a self-audit and looking at your rhythms and looking at your time and scheduling for it. My hope would be that it would be so natural for me, or maybe I don't need that But because of my personality and who I am, planning ahead for it is how we've actually had rest and actually done it, you know what I mean? So we plan ahead and we plan for it, and that's actually how we have rest in our lives. We have rhythms, um, like that— daily, weekly, monthly— to make sure that we are not living on autopilot or just living, swimming with the stream of culture, but that we are abiding literally in Christ.

That is so great, and I, I appreciate you saying this is, this is how we do it. Um, one last question because somebody wants to know this. I feel the question running up my spine. So on your Sabbath day, what do you do? Are you sleeping all day? Are you going for a walk? Like, what, what do you do? Because somebody right now who is— I watched this thing on Instagram yesterday just flipping through. It was a reel. I think was on some channel that, you know, some account that's all about the whole boss girl boss thing. But anyway, this chick just said, I just want a job. I don't want a career. I don't want to move up. I don't want to feel good about what I've done for 30 years. I want something that pays my bills, helps me to keep a roof over my head, make sure I don't starve. And then when I leave, I want to be done. I don't want to think about it. She's like, I don't want the hustle. I don't want that. So I think, you know, there's something to be said for people who want the hustle and need the hustle, and people who are like, nope, just clock in and clock out. But either way, we struggle with empty space, even if we— even when we want it, we don't really know what to do with it. Um, so what do you do with that rest, the defined rest that you've set aside?

Yes, that's a great question. It doesn't look the same all the time, and it's ever evolving. I will say that too, that our structure this month doesn't look like how it will in 6 months or did 6 months ago. It's also ever evolving. But for us, some goals we have in our Sabbath day is to stop, to rest, and to delight. And so what do we need to stop doing? Something that perhaps I find my identity in, something that perhaps, um, like I want to get ahead, I want to get more ahead for the next week. Like, what do I need to stop doing to stop being a slave to what I produce So we stop. There is no work that, you know, is about, you know, producing and achieving. So we stop is one thing. The next thing is that we rest in what gives us rest. Now, this will be different for everyone, but I've had friends that have talked about how they frame rest in their Sabbaths. Jess Connolly said this awesome thing to me when we were talking about our Sabbaths and how we're evolving our Sabbaths. Sabbaths. And she said, I want people to think about what is a place of fatigue for them and not do that thing on that day. So for some people, if doing dishes is their greatest place of fatigue, then perhaps Sabbath is a day when your family uses paper plates. And I was like, oh my gosh, I love this! But what is this place of fatigue? And she would say, like, content creating might be a place of fatigue.

Fatigue.

So on that day, she does not create content. Does that make sense? Or, um, for me, this place of fatigue is, you know, but this gives me life, this gives me rest. So you will— I think you have to have an honest conversation with God, and if you're married, with your spouse, about what you guys want to— need to stop so you know you're valuable without producing one thing, and what actually gives you rest. Because there will be people who say, we go camping on our Sabbath. And praise God for that. It's not rest. That is not rest for me. That is not— I rebuke that in the name of Jesus. No, but for some people that is rest, and for us rest is different. And then delight. How can you enjoy what God has already given you? Remember what God has already done in your life and worship God and live in a posture of seeing God and, and what you already have. You know, it's a day to, to not need to get ahead or buy more or do more. But to stop, rest, and delight. So for me and my husband, practically, we will not be going outdoor camping. We will not be doing that. But we likely will sleep in and go out to brunch and go on a really long walk. Like, we are mildly outdoorsy, okay, mildly adventurous. We like to go on long walks. We like to go on medium hikes. And we'll do like a very long walk together, and in that we're catching up and, you know, sharing things on our hearts. And it's not usually that serious, you know, we live together.. But it is like a nice time together, a lot of times in silence. We might watch a basketball game. My husband and I love sports. One of the ways we bonded early on was through some of our fandoms for our sports teams. So for some people, that's not it. I know many people who turn off devices all for Sabbath. I honor that. I think it is something you might want to consider. Um, but my husband and I, we— there's, there's some We are committed to, let me tell you. And so we might watch a game, you know, and we might embrace community, go out to a meal with a group of, you know, another couple. We might cook at home and grill, but it typically is a slower day. And it is hard for me. There's so much I want to get done. There's a to-do list in my office that I want to check boxes to, but it's me trying to resist a culture that has told me I cannot rest, I'm not enough unless I finish everything or do everything. And it's been an act of resistance. It has not been natural. Um, so typically a Sabbath looks like that for us. It looks like sleeping in, it looks like a long walk, a brunch. It might look like us going to a live sporting event together if there's one in town, or watching one, and then maybe grilling together, doing, uh, watering our plants together. And for some people, they might say that's work, and for us it's really restful being out in nature together And then we'll be by the fire with some tea and hanging out at night. And sometimes we'll see people, like if our friends' kids have a soccer game, we'll go to that. Things that bring us rest and delight, but a day to think, you know, not just of like what I need, what else I need to get done or what else I need to get, but just seeing what we have and who God is. It's really just postured our lives in a new way. And then I feel it has helped me be more myself. And better at what God's called me to do throughout the week. Sabbath is not just a day, but it's a lifestyle. When God created the world, you know, He rested on a day and He calls us to depend on Him. And I think— and He commands us to have rest. And I think for so many of us, when we don't practice rest, we are telling God He thinks we only need 6 days, we think we need 7. We need to rely on our power, not His. So I really see it as an act of dependence. Confidence.

Yeah.

And trust, saying, God, I, I believe your word more than I believe in what I'm feeling.

So very good. Listen, I am so glad that we were finally able to have this conversation. You are such a trove of wisdom, and I love how multiple times during our conversation you've just said, listen, I'm working on it. Listen, I'm still there. Yes. And, you know, I mean, I think that that's the beauty of it, is that we get to, you know, Revelation tells us that we overcome by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of our testimony. And testimony does not just include the things we've overcome, it includes the things that we're working through. And that you can feel the love of God, understand worth, believe in value, even when you still have to wrestle with it. And the live wrestle, um, seeing that someone else is in the wrestle and still choosing to, um, walk in strong belief of what we believe God's word says and who he says we are. I think that's where the gold is, that I don't have to have arrived to get it, that I can be wrestling with it and still choose to believe it. And I want to thank you for your honesty and for your willingness to share out of your own struggle what you have come to know God says about you. Um, I'll make sure that we let everybody know how to catch that video that's gone viral, um, that just knowing what God says about you and that you have a new name and you can agree with that new name even when you don't always feel it. Because the power is in agreeing with God like we believe what he's saying is true, even if we don't feel it, and trusting that eventually our feelings will catch up with the fact of his love for us. Thanks so much for joining me, Hosanna. This has been great. I love that.

Thanks, friend.

Did you enjoy listening to this that podcast. Listen, let me tell you, I did. I did. I want you to think about a few things. Okay? I want you to think about these questions. Have you ever felt pressure to water down who you are? First of all, if you have, you're not the only one. I would love for you to tell me about when you felt called or pulled down to be less than who you actually are because of your story, your culture, your race, your language, your name. I want to know, how did it affect you to be pressured into being something you're not? I also want to ask you this. I want to ask you, have you been seeing your life through the lens of other people or a broken lens that you put on yourself? How do you see yourself when you look through God's lens? How does it change what you say about yourself? And I want to know how this message has changed or blessed you. If you're watching this, you can do that by telling me that right now in the comments. If you are listening to this, you can definitely go to the show notes that are a part of your podcast delivery and let me know that there. Either way, I look forward to hearing from you and I hope to see you next week. All right. Or I hope you're listening next week. We'll see you then.