Jackie Hill Perry on Bearing Much Fruit

Hey y'all, you all know who Jackie Hill Perry is. She basically doesn't need an introduction, but I just want to say, I want you to understand if you didn't realize it already, that you are watching and listening to one of the greatest voices of our time. Not because she's articulate, which she is. Not because she's an amazing teacher, which she is. Not because she's hilarious, which she also is. Come on, saints and aints. But because she values holiness, because she values obedience, because she prioritizes time with the Lord, and because real time, as she learns, she shares. Even when she makes a mistake, she apologizes. I'm not putting her on a pedestal for you to worship her or admire her in an unhealthy way. However, I do want you to understand that when someone prioritizes holiness And when they are willing to walk in obedience, often bringing areas of difficulty in their life that you will never know about or see, that produces fruit. And if you are listening and watching her, wherever you are listening and watching to her, know that that fruit, as you watch and ingest, can bless your life. So I want you to listen very carefully to this interview with Jackie. She's got a new devotional out. It's called Upon Waking. If you haven't already gotten it, get it. I believe it will change your life. But I also want you to know that when you look at her life and you're like, Jackie Hill Perry's on fire, she's on fire because she values holiness. She's on fire because she values obedience. She's on fire because as she learns, she teaches, and as she needs to correct, she apologizes. And she is first and foremost serving her Savior. So if you want to experience the kind of fire that you see in her life, it may look different for you. But if you want to know that you are aligned with what God wants to do in your life, prioritize holiness, prioritize obedience, prioritize walking in the knowledge that you receive, repenting when necessary, and then getting back on track and continuing to move forward. That's the most important lesson I think you'll learn from watching her life. But there are other lessons we want to talk about. So let's jump into the conversation that I had with Jackie today. You have now put out into the world this new devotional, Upon Waking. And, uh, listen, chapters— 10 chapters is hard because you got to think about, in a regular traditional book, 10 stories to open and close with, maybe 20 if you want that to be different, maybe one in the middle to keep people reading. That's 10 chapters. When I wrote She's Still There, that was 30 chapters. It was the hardest part. I had to come up with 30 different stories because, wow, you have to start and end, keep people interested. But yet you came up with 60 different days to have something to say, you know. And people think, oh, it's just a devotional, it's short, it'll be easy. So you now done this, but I want to know why you even— you write deep things. Not that devotionals aren't deep, but people tend to think they're easier. Because they're shorter, cut and dry. And you've written other things that have been much deeper, much more personal to your story specifically. Um, and while this may be personal and while it may be deep, devotionals are different. So why a devotional in this season for you right now with all the things you already have going on? Why was this important?

Yeah, yeah, frankly, the publisher asked me to do it and I was a bit skeptical or cynical at first. One, because books take a lot of time, a lot of energy, right? They, they, they just, they just take a hold of your calendar and hold it hostage. And I've been trying to slow down my pace a lot, and I have, you know, so I can not only be present for my children, but also I'm in school, right? So I'm, I'm trying not to be in school till I'm 52, and so I need to focus on that. So when they said devotional, I was like, okay, that gives me an opportunity to communicate, to write, to help the body, but in a way that feels succinct and simple. I was dece— I was deceived because I thought that a devotional would be easy, but it's not easy because it's 60 different ideas that you have to expound upon in a way that actually serves people and is edifying. Um, but it felt like a challenge because I've seen and read so many devotionals that are easy that are simple, that are, dare I say, shallow. And so I was like, oh, why don't I write what I want to see? Which is just because you only have 200 words or 300 words per page, it doesn't mean that it has to be weak. It can still be meaningful. It can still be impactful. Jesus was not talking these long discourses all the time. He was giving you parables that were short, sweet, but powerful. And so that's what I wanted to create.

So now that you've done it, uh-huh, you think you do it again in your own economy?

About 15 years, yeah.

Okay, so I need to give—

I need to give people 90 days next time.

Well, not necessarily, you know, 30 days of work, people can be successful multiple months during the year. Um, the So the thing is, you are— I perceive you, let me not talk in generalities, I perceive you to be a very, uh, a person of deep water, um, deep thought. And honestly, can I just say, I was surprised to see you produce a devotional. Not because I think devotionals are bad or because I don't think you should write one. It didn't strike me, um, for Jackie Hill Perry to give me what I need in 15 minutes. Jackie wants me to go deep. She wants me— I mean, you, you have told me before we're recording that when you guys get into your rhythm later in this year with homeschooling, you— one of your subjects is theology. See, most mothers who say, I'm gonna do certain subjects with my kids, they don't use theology. They use the word Bible, Bible, character development. You said theology. So yes, ma'am. So I'm like, oh, devotional. Because my assumption would be if somebody had asked me, which no one did, my assumption would be, oh, Jackie O'Perry wouldn't do a devotional because she doesn't want you to just do a quick, uh, digestion of her pre-digested devotions that she spent longer to give to you. She wants you to get into the word, create the space and the time. And so here you are producing this devotional to give people something meaty that they can digest fairly quickly. Are you concerned at all about what you and I both know people do with devotionals, shallow or deep, that they take that as the main thing, the main meal? I'm gonna do this in 10, 15 minutes before I go to work. And that's really all they're doing. Are you concerned about creating a tool that does give people, even if it's deep, bite-sized entry?

Hmm, not necessarily. And maybe because I already spoke to that concern in the book. You know, I begin the book by saying that this is an appetizer. This is not the main course. You know, you can make guacamole and chips the main course if you want, but you're going to be real skeletal by the end of the week. You know, you need protein. Hello, you need steak, you need chicken or the vegan steaks or whatever mushrooms. And so I think for me, I think there's a sense in which some people don't know where to start. They don't know when they open the book where to go. Do I go to Genesis? Do I go to Revelation? Do I go to Lamentations? Do I go to John? And so I think one, it takes away, uh, perhaps the intimidation that comes with spending time with God in his word. Um, I also think it can cultivate a measure of discipline. So to say that, okay, I have a book that has 60 days worth of content, let me dedicate 60 days— like, it's like the Daniel Fast. There's something about it being 30 days that that measure of time allows you to stick to it. And so I think, I think it will be more positive than negative teaching people the discipline of getting with God, but also kind of— what's the word— making it just an approachable way to get with God, to see that all the scriptures God breathed. And so even though it's 60 days of different content, it shows you that wherever you go in the Bible, all of it is useful for you. So I have high hopes.

You should. Uh, you say each devotional is a shovel. Once the COVID is closed, it's your turn to dig, to open the scriptures, using my observations of them as a resource, not a conclusion. My heart for you is that by seeing him, then and only then will you discover yourself, primarily that you need him. I know from the time of me being a teenager. Um, Streams in the Desert, I still have 2 copies on my shelf. One of them is hardback and marked in, dated from the time I was a teenager. Daily Bread, we could pick it up in the church bookstore or on the back table on the way out. Um, My Utmost for His Highest, I still get an inbox email of that every day in 2 different versions. Um, there have been many times where even though that wasn't, wasn't the author's intent, explicitly stated intent, I took it that way. Maybe that scripture I would read that they digested for me, but I would take it and read the whole chapter so I could then understand the context. I, I knew, um, to do that. So I want to affirm what you're saying is true. For the person who hungers for the word, it's a, it's a diving board. It's not the end, um, end result. I'm—

I—

for you, I'm curious about what devotionals have fed you. Um, have there been seasons where you have relied on devotionals either as a supplement to what you're doing, or, uh— because one of the biggest questions, frankly, you got 4 kids, you got a busy life, uh, you're multi-talented, multi-passionate, and everybody wants you to do everything and they want you to do it right now. And you still on social media dropping little things all the time, which, you know, you do that too. You basically giving mini devotionals as you write mini devotionals.

For sure.

But people in your stage of the game are often moms of young children. I don't even have— I mean, I want to go deep. I don't have time. I don't. So I'm curious about a couple things like what role have devotionals played in your life? Did they? Have they? Um, where you're taking shorter sprints in order to connect with the Lord? And the second of all is, what do your sprints look like now? Because I know you got to teach to study, or study to teach. I know you have to study to write. I know you have to study as a part of your work, but you also got 4 kids running around. So what does devotional quiet time— where is that fitting in? So where do devotionals fit for you? And where does quiet time fit for you in your life right now?

Yeah, so devotionals have never been a thing for me. Um, I tried to get into it by reading, uh, uh, Oswald Chambers' Four Seasons. Um, and that was probably earlier in my walk because the woman that discipled me would read Oswald. So she would read them, I would read them, and we would discuss. And I think that discussion part was actually what fueled me more than what I read. Um, because we were able to really talk about it, go deep in it, but also apply it and see like the practical implications of what was being said. For me now, one, I think intimacy with God shifts all the time, but especially season to season. So when my babies were babies, it was, it was so hard for me to even fathom waking up early to meet with God when I woke up 17 times last night to give somebody a bottle, right? And there was, there was, there was this comfort, and I think this grace from God where he said like, meet me, meet with me when you can. That's not an excuse not to meet with him, is to say invite me into all of those moments, you know. When, when you— I would, I would be feeding the baby the bottle and listening to the Bible or listening to worship, you know. When I, when I had opportunities to sleep, that's worship too. I would go to bed so that when I woke up I can serve my children. Now I'm in a season where the Lord was like, all right, your babies ain't babies no more. All of them sleeping through the night, ma'am. So, so you do have time, you do have space, you do have margin to get up early. It's just a choice that you have to make. And so I try to get up earlier to pray and talk to the Lord, and I will read something. And so I'll try to read through a book. So now I've been going through 2 Peter, and I might read a chapter of it, I might read another, a couple chapters of it. I won't write nothing I won't circle nothing. I won't look at no Greek or no Hebrew. I won't look at no commentaries. I'm just reading. I'm just delighting in the word. But there's other times where I don't read, I just pray. But then when I get in my car, I listen to 2 Peter while I'm driving. I listen to 2 Peter while I'm walking. I'm— I, I've been on Stairmasters the other day. I told somebody, I said I was on the Stairmaster, I was like, I should probably listen to Judges.

You know what I'm saying?

Which is so— it's weird, but it's like, what does it mean to meditate on your law day and night? It means in my daily rhythms and practices, how can I bring God's word into it? And so it's not as exciting as listening to a rap song, it's not as entertaining as watching YouTube, but I think my heart needs it. Yeah. So I do it. Yeah, that's what it looks like.

So there's a lot of guilt wrapped up for a lot of people. And I think you just spoke to some of that. Like, I mean, even the title of the devotional, Upon Waking, comes with an assumption. I'm supposed to do this when I wake up. And you got all kind of people coming out of the woodwork, like, first of all, I'm not a morning person. I can't even see straight until I have my third cup of coffee at work. Um, you mentioned the Lord said, okay, you're getting a full night's sleep, now get up. And you've got some people who say, I tried that, I don't— that's not— I don't know, honestly, if I can put down the idea of meeting with God first thing in the day for a couple of reasons. One is because I grew up trained that way, that that's a part of giving him your first, first part of your day. Um, and two is just the concept of first, just whatever first is, um, that I've learned. But I know that devotionals for me work in the morning, quick something. And then if I want to go deeper, I want to go deeper where I don't get cut off. So I like doing it when the kids are napping, or when they were younger, or in the evening now, now that the kids are older, so I can keep going until I'm done. Um, what do you tell people about when— I know that you just said throughout your day, but you did say God convicted you of getting up. Yeah, in the morning. So is there something to this idea of first fruits of your day, whatever you do, study, devotion, pray, whatever? Do you believe in that?

I do think when is important, um, because how you start your day, it doesn't necessarily determine how the day goes, but it has a large influence on it. Um, for, for me, I've really had to wrestle with this idea of self-sufficiency. When I get up and don't speak with God or talk to him or petition him or even say thank you. There's, there's something in my heart that's like governing the conversation, or the lack thereof. So what I mean is, I, I— it's, it's too much. It's too many things coming my way. It's temptations, it's devils, it's ministry, it's money. You got people in traffic, and there's things— there's people that's gonna require something from me. They're gonna ask me for prayer or for insight or for wisdom. I got my husband. I need to— so there's, there's a neediness that, that, that literally requires me to ask God for help when I wake up. It just— and so to me, when I move on, I know like, oh, you must think you good. Like, you, you just, you just left the house and you just, you just, you think you all right. Like, I just, I don't, I don't, I don't, I, I can't trust myself to live that way. And so it doesn't mean that I have to like get on my face for an hour and a half unless necessary, but it does mean that if I need him, if I need him for real, I'm gonna ask him for help. I'm gonna say hello. I'm gonna say, God, thank you for waking— like, there's going to be some type of conversation by virtue of the fact that I'm aware of myself.

So, um, I loved how you said— I just can say hello, because I think we overdo it as to what the morning has to look like. And sometimes it's just— that's it. Hey, it's just hello. Uh, you know, James 4:15 reminds us that we should say, if the Lord wills. Because I can't tell you— I mean, we used to get in the car, my dad would, he, you know, on the verge of forgetting, would back the car out of the driveway. And in order to back out of our driveway, we had to back into someone else's driveway. So we get in the car, put on our seat belts. We would have been at the kitchen table. We could have prayed then. We could have prayed in the car when we got in the car. But somehow it was the reminder where he backed into the driveway of our neighbor before he actually went into forward motion to leave. If we had not prayed before then, he always prayed then, and it was always the same prayer. And we late for school, you know, I got to go back in, I forgot my lunch. And I'm thinking, yeah, We can skip, like, let's go, like, you know. But there's a presumption about what God is willing for your day or what could be allowed in your day without you covering your day or putting him first in your day. And I love the idea of presumption, um, because it reminds me of how he just— he might have forgotten up until that point, but he never presumed to go into forward motion and drive Without showing a quick, a quick prayer about safety on the road and us being apart all day. I wrote a note to ask you about, um, delighting. Um, and you have some people who are out here who are rule followers, uh, and you know that beyond rule followers, you have been in an environment— good. Propagated by the LifeWay machine, which has been great for a lot of people because they've been able to be introduced to the word in a new and a fresh way as God has kind of revealed the word to be shared by you. But that system— and, and I'm saying LifeWay, but at my church, a women's Bible study, just, it's the system of the next Bible study, right? Where, um, We are addicted to the Bible study. It's like the turning in of the homework. I gotta have something to share. I'm meeting with my group. Nothing wrong with it.

Yeah.

But it's the system of the study and not the rhythm of the relationship. Yeah. And you have people who crack open the word and that doesn't really cross their mind to just crack it open and read it, much less to delight in it. The reason why they took a Bible study in the first place, because they didn't understand it. So when it comes to the ebb and flow of— for you, today I'm going to read, today I am going to study, I'm gonna break out the Greek and Hebrew, okay, but right now I'm going to do a devotional, but this morning I'm gonna say hello, uh, you know, that ebb and flow for you. If you were speaking to somebody who is faithfully doing their Bible studies and they're listening to you talk right now about this ebb and this flow of just connecting, uh, relationally delighting. But this is what they know. What would you say to that person to— it's not that it's bad, but to get out of that and to be invited into something else?

Yeah, I think— I would think— I'm sure there's a wiser answer to this, but why do you do it, you know? Uh, because even Jesus says, these people, they honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. And these were people who were very regimented, very disciplined, keepers of the law, so, uh, or so they thought, right? And so there was a sense in which they had a rhythm that looked godly but they were missing God. But then you have, I think, on the other extreme, the other side of the spectrum, is people who are so loose and so spontaneous that there is no discipline, there is no regiment, there is no— and, and I think both ends is, is the why. Who, what do we do? Who are we made for? What did he, what did he die for? What did he raise from the dead for? How do we meet him? How do we love him, honor him? Serve— like, the why is really important to me. Um, even the other day, I'll share this, this was probably 4 days ago, I got up and I, I had to hit the ground running. And so I just said this little raggedy prayer. I was like, Lord, thank you.

Is there such a thing as a raggedy prayer?

No, it was raggedy because he convicted me. I was like, Lord, thank you for, you know, waking me up and just be with me throughout the day. It was very casual., and I felt convicted, and I couldn't— I couldn't figure out why I was convicted. You know, it's like Paul said, pray without ceasing. I just woke up and gave you glory, right, upon waking. And I was at the gym, and the conviction was Isaiah 6, where he is standing before the throne of God, and he's like, woe is me, a man of unclean lips. And you got these angels all around him And I was like, Lord, that prayer I gave you did not consider your worth. It didn't consider your value. It was— I just threw up something as if you ain't King, as if you ain't Lord, as if you ain't Elohim, Alpha and Omega. And there are times when I might throw up a prayer like that, but it comes from a place of worship. But there are other times where I throw up prayers like that and it's coming from a place of laziness. And I guess at the end of the day, the why, the motive in the vision of God that we have while we're doing either the regiment or the spontaneous matters. So that's my response, is why we doing it and what is our vision of God when we do.

What does it look like for you to— you mentioned experiencing God's conviction, because sometimes I think we're not experiencing God's conviction, we're holding ourselves to a checklist that somebody else gave us. Um, what you just mentioned, what does God's conviction look like for you, for you to know the difference between the raggedy prayer, you know, and a non-raggedy.

Yeah, this question is always— it's becoming more difficult because it's mystical for me.

Um, girl, you can't use that word. The believers can't handle that word. Go ahead, explain.

We worship in spirit, so there's a sense in which it feels— and even my explanation of it is subjective— there's this inner, this inner burden, this inner unrest, this inner I don't have peace, this inner something ain't right, this like it's just this it ain't right. And, and I experienced that, and then I asked God about it.

Yes.

Or what is this? Why am I, why am I feeling that way? And then what comes to my mind is scripture. Isaiah 6, right? And so I think it's the Spirit of God working together with the scriptures that he inspired to bring me to an awareness of why I was convicted and how I'm supposed to respond to that conviction. And so I, I think that that's what conviction is, because you have some people, they don't rightly discern what conviction is because they're not in the scriptures. Right? But you also have people who are always in the scriptures, but they always quench the spirit because they're afraid of even looking to themselves or like what the spirit is doing in their bodies as a means to communicate. And so I think both spirit and truth really have to work together for us to discern God's will.

Hey there, it's the Sister Circle team dropping in for a moment, but don't worry, we will get back to the interview in just a minute. Jackie is the best, isn't she? The holidays are approaching and we wanted to make sure you weren't heading into them alone. The good thing about the holidays, it's the best time if you're looking forward to getting connected with family and friends. On the flip side, it's a hard time if you're struggling with connection with family and friends. But here's why we paused the interview. This November in the Inner Circle, we're going to be learning how we can build our circles by pouring into new relationships and investing in existing ones so we experience the benefits and blessings of true connection. If you need to build your own circle, join us in the Inner Circle where Chrystal Hurst will be teaching about this topic and our community will be learning together. See you on the inside. Now let's get back to our interview.

I was just talking this morning, you know, I do the live thing every Monday, so I was talking to the girls about how we have become so afraid. So the world has borrowed so many things, they've taken so many things from us, and because it's been put under other banners, we say, oh, that doesn't belong to us. Um, so one of the biggest ways I know that God is giving me confidence about something and convincing me that it's his idea, not my idea, and I will say it out loud is I feel it down my spine. I mean, it— and every single time, that's— that don't— that ain't how he does it for everybody, but I literally feel a lightning bolt go down my spine. And every single time when I've been praying about it, when I've been asking him about it, when I've been seeking wisdom about it, when I have that, it's just a lightning bolt down my spine. That's how he talks to me, and that's how I all of a sudden can move forward, because he convinced me down deep in my soul but let me feel it in my body. And somehow in the world, because, you know, the body's corrupt and because, you know, what flows out of the heart ain't good and all that, we've said, well, when people start talking about feeling, we run away from that. But God didn't put us here floating around. We're in a physical body. Like, he— it's all attached. So I think it's really important that you said that because, um, listen, because if I say it They'll say, look at Tony Evans's fruit, it ain't like the root. But if Jackie Hill Perry says it, she's so godly and so attached to the word.

So I, I don't read the comments. Don't read the comments.

Pentecostal, Baptist, charismatic, reform, all of it, all of it, and growing every day, growing every day. You are, um, pouring out a lot, girl. You are, um, out here in these streets speaking and writing and events and traveling and mothering and wifing and learning, going to school, but also digesting. Because you can't do all that without— I mean, you could do all that without digesting, but it'll be flat, you know. It won't, it won't, it won't accomplish. How you doing? How is your, um, how's your cup?

Yeah, man, it's so crazy. There's such a difference between this year and previous years, um, because me and you had a conversation a long time ago about saying yes to too much. You know, and that was around the time I had— I was on the edge of a panic attack. And earlier this year, my life shifted with God because I had a, I had a, I had a very visceral spiritual experience that made me very aware of how many doors I had opened, how much holiness I was not pursuing. And how I needed to take my life with God very seriously. And so everything changed. I cut things off, like whatever. If my eye was causing me to sin, I gouged that thing off. If my hand was causing me to sin, I cut that off. Uh, friendships changed, you know. My devotional life with God changed because there was this real neediness. It wasn't an intellectual neediness anymore. It wasn't, oh, I need him. It was— I knew, I knew that I needed him. And that has, that has made me, I feel so much more dependent and therefore I don't feel as empty as I used to feel. You know, I used to get burnt out so easy and I realized that I was being burnt out because I wasn't abiding. Like Jesus said, like, if you abide in me, you will bear much fruit, much fruit. And I feel like this has been one of the most fruitful years of my life and I'm not even tired. And I think that's because I just— I've been begging God for his power, his strength, his wisdom, his love, his grace, and he showed up. So I, I feel all right, honestly. My husband is here. He's on one accord with me, so I'm covered.

He's here.

No, that's a big deal because, because when we're disunited, I also experience the lack of, like, knowing that he's praying for me.

Yeah.

And he's loving on me and he's discerning for me, right? Like, when he's off, I can't even run right, and vice versa. And so the fact that we're, we're both on, it's, it's good.

I want to tell you that I think you have— I've seen more of You know, like I said before, multi-passionate, multi-all the things. And I've seen more, of course, of the focus on the spiritual in the lane of the Bible study, in the lane of the book writing, in the lane of the speaking.

Yeah.

And you've had the stints where y'all have done the, uh, you've gone back to your poetry, not gone back to it, but publicly gone on tour for it or whatever. Where are you creating space for that? Are you creating space for that? Is that still a part of what you're cultivating in this season of doing all these other things?

Poetry? No, because poetry was always a vehicle for teaching for me. What I do miss is avenues of creativity. I do miss that. And what replaced it for a season was when I was designing my house, painting and finding furniture and tables. And so I miss that. I, I have been too busy to express myself creatively, creatively. And so that's, that's something I, I lament a lot.

Lament in that you believe it's currently not the season, or you believe that it's just you got to figure out where it fits? Like, is it not the season for that? Does something have to go if you got— if you're in school and on tour and all that? Like or are you currently seeking ways to put it back in?

Yeah, I lament it because something does have to go for me to even have the mental space to focus on it, because I, I think there's a focus I have now when it comes to school, when it comes to ministry, that has— I can't explain it. It's like when I, when I zero in on something, I chase it and everything else falls to the side. And so it feels like to be creative feels like a waste of time, and it's not a waste of time. It's an avenue of rest. So maybe that's actually the problem, is that the creativity will offer me a chance to just rest my mind and my brain, you know, but I haven't created space for it.

What are you doing now that gives you rest? Like, literally just sleep? Anything?

Sleep, the movies, but ain't no good movies been out. You know what makes me happy? What makes me feel full is reading, playing games, and documentaries. So if I haven't been playing games— because don't nobody I know— I ain't around nobody to know how to play spades good. And then watching documentaries.

And you're probably one of them people that if somebody said, I'll play spades with you if you teach me, you're like, no, I don't have the patience for that. I need you to come in ready.

This is what you need to understand. This is what you need to understand. If we playing spades, Bible Teacher Jackie is not here. It's spades. I'm gonna hurt your feelings. Like, you better know your— you better count your books. It's important. It is so important to play well. Why are you here? Go play Uno. Go do that. I can't stand Uno.

I hate it so much because that's what people who don't know how to play spades play.

It's too random. It ain't no skill in that game. Oh, you gotta draw 4. I like that.

So, um, I don't know. So no, we're just talking about rest because I— because see, see, I think that all of this— the people who are like, thank God, Jackie, for giving me a devotional, are the people who are saying one of two things: I don't understand the Bible if I crack it open on my own, or I don't have time.

Yeah.

And so I think You have a very full life. And when I talk to you about your children and you're traveling and you're writing and you're speaking, but we have watched you decorate your home, we have watched you plate a meal, we have watched you, um, deliver poetry, we have watched you host a worship night in your house, we've watched you— which is one of the beautiful things about your life is how you let us watch you. You've let us watch you doing all these things. The person who picks up the devotional is going, I don't have time. But yet the person who's written this devotional for them has been carving out the things that they've been watching while still making time to digest the word and offer something up to someone else as a part of it. So I think to see how you find ways to rest, to be, to create, to experience God in different modalities lends itself to the Oh, if you're telling me I can read this devotional and go deeper, oh, I can too. I can play spades too and rock a devotional in the morning. I mean, that's a part of the digestibility of it because who knows, you know, maybe 100 years from now there'll be people reading Upon Waking thinking about you like you were thinking about Oswald, which is like, can I really even understand this? The language was different, but it came from this lady who had 4 kids. Who was playing spades, writing poetry, and picking tables.

Yeah, because when you look at Jesus's life— I write about this in, in the book— when you look at his life, he was very busy.

Yes.

First of all, he couldn't even get nowhere quickly. He's walking, whole walk, everywhere. Oh my gosh, everywhere. City, city. He's everywhere he goes, people want his attention. They, they got sicknesses, they got demons, they got diseases. He's on his way to heal somebody, somebody else touches his garment, she healed, he got to talk to her real quick, then going on and help the other man whose daughter done died. Like he had a busy life, but his heart, his treasure was in heaven, and therefore he carved out space to meet with his Father. And so to me, I think Jesus's life gives me and others no excuse, but he also went to weddings. He also enjoyed himself. And even in the midst of the enjoyment, he still did a miracle. He still worked. He still did some ministry at the party. And so there's this— I think there's also this overlap where we don't have to live in these binaries where it's either rest or ministry. I think God also creates space for us to do both. And, um, we obviously need discernment and wisdom to how to discern where that— like, when that can happen, but it's possible.

People pick up devotionals because— for a lot of reasons, but one of them is they want to hear from God, um, and they want something that makes it possible for them to connect that doesn't feel above, beyond. But often that same person who comes picking up a devotional, they've got big questions, but they're just trying to start somewhere. They have big concerns. But they're just trying to make a basic connection. Um, what are the current questions that you're asking God?

You always be coming with the, like, the jab. You wanna— you'll make an excellent therapist.

Thank you.

Say that again. Say it again.

What are your questions for God right now?

Uh, where, like, how long do I have to be dependent on manna? Because I don't like, I don't like daily bread. I want bread that's gonna last. That's my question. I said, I said at dinner with Preston last night, I said I feel like the Lord wants me to be content with having just enough when I want more than enough. Because I got, I got a plan. I got a plan for to feed these kids. I got a plan to pay my team. I got a plan for this. I got a plan for that. And the way the plan is set up, it feel like something gonna run out. But that's, that's the whole dynamic of manna, is that do you trust me today? So that's the— that's, that's where I've been at, is I am struggling with trusting that what he gives me today is all I need to be worried about.

Well, thank you for spitting that out because, okay, that was great, um, for a lot of, for a lot of reasons. Do you have— you didn't tell me. I'm a therapist, I'm gonna keep going. Do you have— no, is it, is it frustrating for you anxiety-producing for you? Both?

Yeah, it's, it's, it gives me anxiety, which is just, it's this fear. I know it's a fear related to my whatever I believe about the nature of God. I think underlying is the fear is, will you take care of me? Yeah, I, I think I'm afraid that God won't take care of me. And I think what God is consistently reminding me is, I've always taken care of you. Yeah, the birds of the air, they don't sow or reap, and yet I've taken care of them. And are you of greater value? Absolutely. And so I think there's this assumption that abundance will make me feel safe, that that will make me feel secure, that that will make me feel okay. And I'm a very capable and competent person with many options by which I can have abundance, but I don't feel the freedom or even the freedom of conscience to pursue that either. And so I gotta stay back so I can be holy. And in being holy, I'm like, all right, now I could go through that door and we gonna be all right, but I can't go through that door because my heart gonna get hard. And so I need to— I, I— that's where I am. It's like All right, Jireh, we, we, we trust him. And so I don't think my heart has fully surrendered to the truth that he, he cares for me yet, yet, because this is a fresh thing as of last night.

You're talking about the bird and Jesus feeding the birds, and you know, you have this bird with this open mouth on the COVID of your devotional. Why is that the picture on the devotional? Does this have— is there a connection? Did you dictate that?

They— the publisher sent me a bunch of book covers.

Yeah.

And I like that one because book cover art matters to me. I think, I think aesthetics are a big deal because—

why did you like that? Why did you like that one?

It had— I had a visceral response. I, I was excited in my body when I saw it. And the designer Googled it, and it's basically a, a bird that wakes up early and things. And so there is this connection of upon waking, you know, that the bird is kind of—

I don't think that that's all there is. I don't think that that's all there is. I think that's what you saw. But I think what you just said, what you have said multiple times in this conversation, what you just said was, if he takes care of the birds, why isn't he going to take care of me? And this bird, okay, is singing. That's what you thought originally. But another vision is that this bird has their mouth open because they're being fed. And also, you just said— you just were talking about dependence. So this bird gets up and expects, if I open my mouth, I will be fed. I'm sitting here on this branch waiting to be fed. So I think, yes, singing in the morning was the first response, but I think you had a visceral reaction because upon waking, me sitting here waiting to be fed, waiting to receive, waiting to have God show up and remind me of how I am totally dependent on him every day, every morning, for the feeding and provision. I think this was bigger, and you knew it in your soul when you picked it. That's what I think.

Prophecy!

What you told me today, based on what you told me today, because I thought you were going to tell me that's why you picked this cover, and you said something totally different, but it agreed with what you just told me in this interview, because I didn't see it that way, Prophet.

But now I do.

So maybe, maybe the message for you in writing the book in retrospect will be, yes, what I learned about the Lord when I wake up every morning freshly faced to meet him, but it will also be in hindsight what I learned about waking up every morning freshly awaiting him to feed me. Oh Lord, that's what I think.

That's what I was feeling, and it is so. I can't even—

what I can tell you is this, and I'm saying this because I'm supposed to say it. You have so far, so far What you learn, you share. When you make a mistake, you say so. Hmm. Where God is growing you, you set an example. You are committed to holiness, and you remind everybody, including me, where we have let the line slide. What he's handing you not perfectly, because none of us are perfect, but you make good use of it. And the widow was told by the prophet, just go get all the jars, and whatever you get, God will fill. So what I know is that if you keep showing up, independence— if you keep showing up and saying, listen, can I just get more manna? More than the metaphor today. In that season of the journey, all he's showing you is faithfulness that you'll talk about in the next, because he's never about just that part of the journey. He's always about the abundance that he's leading us to. But we learn so many things when we are in a season of dependence. We learn so many things when we bring him all the jars. We learn so many things when our hands are open-handed and when we're asking questions. There are things that I learned reading those devotionals as a teenager that I can go back now 40 years later and see what he was teaching me then that felt so hard to learn. And I just want to encourage you, even though the 60 devotionals were hard to write, um, that all of the things that you're doing and you're learning— and you know it, I just want to say it again— that every part of the journey, even the ones where your hands are wide open and your mouth is wide open, like, can you give me more? Can it be easier? Is a part of the building of the faith. And we're learning. Here's the thing, here's the beauty: we get to learn with you along the way, not when you're done and you're talking back about hindsight. It's like right now you got all these women who are in this season of life or shared seasons of life with you going, she's telling me what she's learning real time, and I wanna, I wanna learn this real time too. And they're sitting at your feet asking Q&A questions. You do the Q&A at your events. Can you feed me? Can you give me what you got? And that real-time passing down is, um, is a transference at warp speed, because normally people want a generation for that. Wow. So we don't have to wait for the Israelites to get into the Promised Land before we read the whole story. You're learning it while you're experiencing it and transferring it. And that is a warp speed kind of transference that is needed, as my mother would say, for such a time as this. So just the, the getting the lesson and passing it on and feeling like you don't yet have the abundance also results in warp speed transformation intergenerationally, in the same generation, not one generation removed. So I just want to encourage you, because it's hard But anything at warp speed is— anything at warp speed is hard. Yeah, but you get where you're going faster. So hang on, that's a great ride.

That's a, that's a good reminder, y'all.

Jackie Hill Perry, JHP. If you didn't know, you're under a rock. If you didn't know, now you know. And if you already knew, get connected, follow, listen, and get the book and get some little nuggets in the morning that'll help to hopefully get your digestive system going for the rest of the day with whatever Lord would have to deliver to you himself. Yeah, but amen. Let the devotional whet your appetite. Thanks for joining me, Jeff.

Thank you.