Kia Stephens on Overcoming Father Wounds

Y'all, Kia Stevens is a force. First, that's what you need to know. She is a force. She, yes, is an author, and yes, she has been given the specific, um, message about helping people overcome father wounds. That's what her first and most recent book is all about. But apart from that, she is about helping other people get their messages into the world, helping, um, other people who have been entrusted with a message to share it, to speak it, to teach it, to write it, and making sure not that just in general people are able to get into those spaces, but that women of color are able to get into those spaces. And she is, um, not only plowing a path for herself, but she makes it her business to plow a path for other people. I've known Kia for a while. We met years ago at She Speaks, I believe. Is that where we met?

Yeah.

And so when I was fangirling hard, when you were fangirling, which was amazing to me because I still don't understand that. I still be, I be going to these events like, oh my God, I get to meet so-and-so.

So Chrystal, it's because there were so few women of color on that platform. Yeah, at that time a lot has changed, but So, you know, for another person of color, you go to the conference, you are looking like the biggest Christian celebrity that there could be, you know, because of what you've done in your own right. But then also because you're the only— you're the only one here. You're the only one that looks like me.

Yeah, you—

I'm gonna fangirl you, and you're doing what I desire to do.

You know, here's the thing, you have your own thing. It's very, very clear. And I mean, I can call Kia, y'all, and say, hey, I need a woman who can write. I need a woman who can speak. Who do you know that I should know? Who needs to be on the podcast that maybe is not on my radar, but they're on your radar? Like, she is so very well connected, but she is so about helping other women get the opportunities that they need to be heard. So I want to start out by saying, if you don't know who Kia is, then you should know. We'll make sure that all the links to all the things you need to know are in the show notes for this episode. And, um, Entrusted Women, first of all, is where you want to get engaged with her, especially if you are a person that feels like you've been entrusted with a message. But we'll put all that in the show notes. Here's the deal. I want to talk to you, Kia, about FatherWoods. We've talked about it before, and I'm going to make sure we link to that initial podcast that you and I did. Um, in the show notes as well, but the book is out and we are here right before Father's Day. And really, let's just jump right into it. I want you to first define what a father wound is. And then, um, I want to, I want to, I want to lead with that because I think that the first thing is, is that's a dividing line for many people. Like, it's like a, it's almost like a scarlet letter, a like my daddy, I didn't have one, or I was abused by one. But it could mean so many things. The spectrum is so broad as far as what a father wound is and how you get one. So define that for us.

Sure. And you know, Chrystal, I spent so much time describing it and unpacking it in my book that when it came time to start promoting this book, I realized, oh, I didn't define it. So I went back and just did a Google search. And you all that are listening, you could do it too. But a father wound is synonymous with father absenteeism. And so a father could be absent in, in a myriad of ways— by way of divorce, abandonment, abuse, incarceration, drug addiction, alcoholism, as it was in my case, um, premature death, an affair, or a physically present father but an emotionally absent one. And so any one of those circumstances, not limited to those circumstances, has the potential to leave leaves a woman wounded, um, in her soul, and it can linger for a lifetime, the ramifications of that.

That's so good. So, you know, one of the things I think people want to do— we all are seeking definitions for who we are, how we operate, how we hurt. And like you said, it's father absenteeism, and the assumption is my father wasn't there, or he wasn't— did something bad. But you mentioned emotional absenteeism. And so for the girl who's listening, who may— or watching— and may consider herself even to be a daddy's girl, what is emotional absenteeism, even if you had a good father?

Sure. You know, I liken it to what your father said or did not say, what he, um, where you needed him to be emotionally available and he was not able to either because he was busy or he just didn't have the tools. I remember one service my mom and I were sitting in and the minister said, "How many of you never heard your biological father say, 'I love you'?" And Chrystal Hurst said, "They're like, that's a little forward. That's a little personal," and skeptical to raise my hand among these strangers. But I go ahead, I raise my hand only to look up and like hands are up. All over the building. And then I look to my left and my mom's hand is raised as well. And I didn't know that about my grandfather, which that opened up a whole host of conversation with my mom. You know, she's approaching 80, so she's a product of the '60s. And we all know in the '60s we were not doing therapy and Jesus and coffee. You know, we, we were just keeping everything looking picture perfect, looking like the Beavers. I may be dating myself. Leave It to Beaver. And I said the Beavers, the Cleavers, the Cleavers. I'm sorry, you know, but just having this picture-perfect image and not acknowledging that there's an ache here, there's a desire for you to just talk to me, for you to teach me about what it is to be feminine, to be beautiful, to be lovely. And so as it relates to emotionally absent, I would venture to say there's a lot of women that were longing to hear their father say something or do something, just express his interest in them as a human being, and they were left wanting. And that would be an example of a physically present father but emotionally absent.

And we know you can— you know, you mentioned therapy and Jesus. We know you can be deeply hurt when there has been abuse or when there has been communication intentionally or unintentionally, but in a violent way, that someone says they're going to come get you and they don't. Absenteeism hurts, but if there is expectation or raised hope, or if there's trauma associated with it, marked by a moment in time, we, we know therapy is for that. Like, we know go get help for that. But I think sometimes we may not recognize our wounds. So my question is, how does a person know? What, what are the symptoms of a father wound that's still festering?

Mm-hmm. I always say when I do these interviews, there's no possible way that you can listen to anything that's coming out of my mouth and not have an indicator first in your body. You know, I'm saying words like divorce, abandonment, abuse. If I say rejection, if I say emotionally— emotionally available, if I say sexual abuse or physical abuse, or if I say things your father didn't say Or even when I said, never heard your father say I love you. For women who are listening, if that is their reality, if they experience that, your body will give you the initial indicator, whether you tense up, sweat comes from your underarms, you feel a lump in your chest or in your stomach, or you are moved to tears. I remember one time I was looking at This guy is an influencer. It was so crazy. He's an influencer connecting with his daughter, very innocent. She looked over at him and, and laughed. They were sharing an inside joke. Next thing I know, I'm boo-hoo-hooing because what I saw on screen was something I didn't experience. That was an indicator for me. So that's I'll start there. But then another huge indicator, uh, is our relationships with the opposite sex, you know. Oh my God, relationships. When we begin to evaluate the men that we accept, uh, the men that we choose to be in relationship with, the behaviors that we choose to tolerate or accept. There is a huge correlation between what our father taught us in terms of the type of treatment we should receive that's acceptable from a man and that's not acceptable. There's a huge correlation there. Um, you know, on my early— my first blog, I had a running survey, had over 940-something respondents And a lot of women said they had father wounds, their mother had father wounds, their father had father wounds, and now they're raising kids who have father wounds. Uh, and so if, if women are not able to heal, there's the potential that they will date a man that is like their father in a negative sense and then replicate the cycle of the father wounds in their children. I will also say, in terms of how we view ourselves, um, do we feel validated? Have we been affirmed? Do we feel loved or unloved? Wanted? Chosen? All of these things are questions that we can vacillate with. Whether it's true or not true. Women are going to vacillate in to some degree with that, uh, anyway. Some women will. But a father provides, uh, security. A father provides affirmation. A father does affirm the femininity of a woman. You look beautiful. You, um, you can. You're intelligent. You're smart. These are things that a father provides for a daughter. And if he's not there, then she's left to grapple with those questions on her own. So those are a few indicators that I've identified in my own life. I've seen in the lives, unfortunately, of other women too.

So, you know, I've seen— if I can skip forward a little bit, I, I know that one of the biggest things that I have seen with women who have difficult, challenging um, almost non-existent relationships with their fathers that are still physically with them is, what do you do on Father's Day? So, you know, we're assuming here that, that, um, again, he's still living, and we're assuming that this woman, either because she's good, kind, nice, um, or all of those, uh, or at least a believer, is thinking Okay. Uh, he still gave me life. Um, how do I honor? And I know that this is, it's hard to give a singular answer because it depends on why he's not there. Where, where is he? What did he do? And sometimes boundaries and separation is healthy, but assuming for a second that the biggest danger here is your own wellbeing, your own, you mentioned your physicality and how you physically have to engage with that person. Let's assume for a second that they're not dangerous, that, you know, that being around them or being in contact with them isn't going to spiral another traumatic event, but he hasn't been around. It was hurtful. There was divorce or he made promises he didn't keep. You know, whatever, he cheated on your mom. Like whatever the case is, there's pain there. What do you say to the woman who's trying to figure out, but I know I shouldn't be cold. I know in this world we're, we're all collectively therapized. Like even if you don't individually go to therapy, there's so much therapy language that is at work in our culture. We are all aware that we know what, we know what trauma is, or at least we think we do. And we all are aware that unforgiveness is bad for your soul, it's bad for your spirit, it's bad for your body. So the woman who's like, I know I'm not supposed to live here, I'm gonna be mad, I'm struggling, I'm not, I'm not supposed to just, you know, cut him off, uh, but I don't want to have anything to do with him. I don't, um, but I don't want to walk, live, operate in unforgiveness. What do I do when Father's Day rolls around? What do you say to that girl?

Oh, I would say I'm so sorry, and I totally get you. I cannot tell you how many years I spent like that in the Walmart aisle, knowing I need to get a card for my dad, scanning all the list of titles and, and all the the head headings on the front cover of the card, looking for one that was applicable, looking for one that fit my unique circumstance in terms of, okay, a father that wasn't in your life but you are trying to work on it. There's no card. Let me just get a blank card. So I totally understand. Um, I don't think that God wants us to force something. I think for years we've looked at the scripture that says honor your father and your mother, and then we formed in our head what we think honor looks like. And so then we've tried to do what maybe we saw other people do. And oh, if I'm honorable, I'll go out to dinner. And if I'm honorable, then I'll spend a lot of time with him. Or if I'm honorable— you just may not be able to do that. And so my suggestion is to bring all of your frustration and all of your angst and all of your questions to the foot of the cross and say, God, this is what I know I should do. I don't feel like doing it. And if you want me to do that, I'm gonna need some help. I'm gonna need some help. Those are the types of honest conversations I have with God. Uh, even times where I was just completely angry on Father's Day, just angry from, from the top when I woke up to when I went to bed, you know, just wrestling with that. Um, I think God can handle our emotions, and I think it would be better for you to be genuine and honest with the Lord than to try and fake it. That's not really a good offering, uh, you know, if you're trying to fake it. But I would also say do the work. I would also say do the work if your heart's posture is that I don't want to remain in this place. And there are tons of practical tools, Chrystal, like you were just saying. We're so therapized. Is that— I made it up.

I made it up.

Okay, okay, let's go with it. We're so therapized. Uh, there's tons of tools out there. In my book, I have a forgiveness letter. That forgiveness letter has been clutch because I needed a tool to help me process even stuff that I didn't know was lurking just beneath the surface. I needed something to help me process the absence, or process the anger, or process what he did when I was whatever, whatever. And so that was helpful for me. Reading books was helpful for me because in my heart I longed to be whole. I longed to be healthy. So I kept pursuing it even when it looked like I would never not be angry. I would never not be bitter. It looked like that for many years. Many, many years. I had many, many frustrating Father's Days. Father's Day, Father's Day, Father's Day. Anyway, I had many of them. I had so many. And the beauty is going through the hard times, feeling like there will never be anything different, and getting to the other side and, and realizing, oh my gosh, I'm, I'm not angry. Anymore. I have peace. I have peace. I, I told the story in my book that we had just gone out to, um, a breakfast spot for brunch for my husband, and it was a good breakfast. I was full, just kind of casually looking out the window, and I thought about my father, and there was, there was no residue, no, no bitter residue on me. There was nothing that was angry. And I remember being like, oh my gosh, I cannot believe this. I cannot believe that I'm okay, that I'm not bothered. But I was. But I was. And so I would tell that to any woman. If you desire to— if you desire not to remain where you are, then do the work while simultaneously inviting the Holy Spirit because forgiveness is two parts. There's a practical part that we have to do. We have to be willing to relinquish our right to hold our fathers hostage and, and at fault for the wrong that they've done to us. We have to do that. But then there's a supernatural component where the Holy Spirit has to help our heart and our mind to get on board, you know. And we can will it, will it, will it, will it, will it But we— let me say, I, in my experience, I have needed the power of the Holy Spirit to help my heart and my mind to follow suit.

That's so good. Um, I want to start somewhere and then work backwards, and I know again we have that whole other episode where we talk to— but I love the phrase no residue. Unbothered. Because a lot of times people will say, how do I know? Like, you can tell somebody I've forgiven them, or you can write a letter, but how do you know that forgiveness is actually not just something that you've placed in the ground, in the soil of your heart, but something that's actually sprouted and is breaking through the surface? Well, I think that's how you know. There's no residue. You're unbothered. Um, What does, what does homeostasis for you in your relationship with your father, being even keeled internally, what does, what does arrival look like in terms of where y'all's relationship is now? And if you can, you know, briefly just kind of share what started this whole thing, where, why, why was there an issue to begin with? Um, and cause I know, and then we can dive into some of the specific things that you've done. You listed them out, but I want to get in. To those more specifically. So how are you now and where did you start?

Sure. So I mentioned a little bit earlier, my father was not in my life because he wrestled with alcoholism. Uh, I did not know that until I became an adult, uh, how bad it was. And so the decisions and the choices that he made caused him to be absent for much of my— all of all of— well, I don't want to say all, a little, a little bit he was there, but much of my growing up years he wasn't there. And so I desperately wanted this relationship, Chrystal Hurst, with my father, and I thought that I was enough. I'm a go-getter, I'm a— I'm driven, and I kind of approach problems like, oh, I'll just do this, this, and this, and I'm gonna fix it, and I'm gonna get exactly what I want. And that's how I approached my relationship with my father. Once I realized that I was missing that, I was missing this relationship in college. I tell this story so many times, but just being in the dorm room with a friend and she said, "Oh, I made this bookshelf with my dad." And it was essentially like ripping the bandage off of the wound for me my freshman year of college. And I just had all these tears coming down. I did my best to get out of the dorm room because I didn't want her to see me crying. You look crazy. You're trying to build relationships here. And it was my first admittance of saying, I'm not okay. I'm not okay. And I remember talking to someone who was a mentor, and she was like, oh, well, my father was absent too. And so I detailed a letter for him and told him all the events of my life that he missed, and I invited him back into my life so we can start from here. So I was like, okay. Okay, I could do that. And that's what I did. And in my head, because I'm also a dreamer, I was thinking, we are—

this is all it's gonna take.

We are about to have the best father-daughter relationship that there ever was, and everything that I ever wanted to experience with my father is about to happen. And that was met with reality. We did begin to connect when I was home from college. We would go out to eat. But having a conversation with my dad who didn't know me, I didn't know him— my father is Haitian, so there's also a language barrier. He's a different gender, uh, there's an age barrier here, there's a lifestyle barrier because my father lived a life that I don't know anything about. You know, we, we're very different in that regards. He struggled with alcoholism. I hate the taste of alcohol, you know. So there was a lot of just life experiences that, that were different for us. And so I had to learn that. I learned that the hard way, in all honesty, because every time I met with my dad, I had all these expectations I had— oh, I, I was like, this, this is, this is gonna be the moment. This is— we're gonna connect, it's gonna be amazing. And my expectations were met with some of the places in his life that were not healed. Uh, there were times I found myself in an adult— in adulthood rescuing my father from some of the circumstances that he was involved in trying to become a savior for my dad. Um, I did that well into my late 30s, early 40s, and I'm in my 40s. You see what I'm saying? I, I am 40-something, you know. I, I just was trying— I was just like, if I just, if I just do this And so God had to teach me that you can't change people. You can't change people. And that, uh, I don't know why I'm feeling teary, but if you're going to make a decision to be in your father's life, you gotta accept him as is. You gotta accept them as is. And so that was a, a huge adjustment for me, but it was also beautiful in the sense that I learned how to love like Jesus, you know, because he loves us like that. He says, y'all come on, y'all come to me. Oh, I know you, you're still sleeping around, and I know that you lie, and I know that you steal, and I know that you're strung out, But y'all, come on, I want to spend time with you. And so I continue to love my father in that way. Uh, he's been sober that I know, I think maybe for about 3, 4 years. Um, he is one of the most tender people because to him who has been forgiven much, he who has been forgiven much, they love much.

It's great.

So my father loves much. Um, I'm grateful to know that, to see that. Um, he's not a, a public person, so my publisher recommended that I get his permission to share his story with the world, which my book is probably 99.9% me and that 0.1% my dad. I'm mostly talking about me and my wounds. But I went home to Texas, to Fort Worth, Texas, where I was born and raised, and picked my dad up and went to a Mexican restaurant, pulled out my little laptop and said, "Dad, I want to read this book to you, the part that pertains to you." Chips and salsa in the middle. My dad loves Mexican food. I read a little bit, Chrystal Hurst, and I said, "Dad, are you okay with that?" And he said, "Yep." "Sure do. That's the way it happened." And I said, "Okay, let me—" That's how he said it. I said, "Okay, let me read a little bit more." I read a little bit more and I said, "You okay with that?" Chip in mouth, "Yep, sure do." And when I got to the last thing where I was reading about because of my dad's alcoholism, he missed every first and last day of school. He wasn't there to tuck me in at night. He wasn't there to interrogate my dates. He wasn't there for this. He wasn't there for that. I look up. And my father has tears streaming down his face and he says, I owe you and your mother an apology because alcoholism has robbed me of my entire life. And Chrystal Hurst, when he said that, I was like, you know, whoa, I wasn't expecting that. I wasn't anticipating that you were going to say that. Um, and I'm so grateful that God had done a work in my heart that there was no, well, it's about time, you know, and you, you should have said that, you should have been said that. I've been waiting about— oh God, 19 years I've been waiting, you know. I'm so glad that that was not in me. What was in me was a revelation that I need Jesus just as much, if not more, as you, Dad. Yeah. And so my response was, it's okay, it's okay, Dad, we all have things that we struggle with. Which is true, it's true. And so is my relationship with my father perfect? By no means. Is my dad doing everything I want him to do? By no means. Is our relationship a portrait of how God can take a broken relationship and, and make it better? Yeah, most definitely. Um, have I seen God work in our conversation? Yes. Is it perfect? No. So I think that's what peace is for me. I can accept that and, and, and be okay. I'm okay with where we are. I'm not looking for my father to provide me with anything. I know I'm loved by God. I know I'm wanted by God. I know I'm chosen by God. I know I'm special and I'm unique. And if my father never has the words to say those specific words to me, I'm okay, I'm okay. You know, my dad, uh, he doesn't live in the best neighborhood, and he was saying to me, he said, you know, they, they cut the screen out of my window. And I have something for you, and I don't want them to steal it. So can you see if your mama let me drop this thing off at her house? And I was talking to God, Chrystal Hurst, just today, because I know what he's saying is that you're valuable to me. You're so valuable to me that I don't want these people in this neighborhood to steal this thing that I have for you. So can you see if your mom will let me store it there just in case they break in? And I'm so grateful to God that I can hear him say those words and translate what he means, you know. So that's where I am. I, I have an understanding that people don't always have the tools. They don't always have the tools. My father was not fathered. My father grew up in poverty. My father, he didn't have the family unit the way that God intended. So with that awareness, I don't justify, dismiss, deny, or condone his actions, but I have a perspective that helps me continue to engage with him in, in a way that has no resentment or bitterness or anger for what happened, what transpired. That's taken me years though, because I can hear the listener saying, you don't know my story, right? You don't know what he did to me. Nothing will justify that. That's not acceptable. He should have— he shouldn't have did the act if he wasn't going to be a father. I hear you. I hear you. Um, But I think that it's something God allowed. God allowed it. And, and I'm gonna have a— I'm gonna have a sit down with God about the things he's allowed, you know. But for whatever reason, he allowed it, and he enables us to live through it, to live through it. For his good purposes. That Romans 8:28 is about what God is working for God's good, the overall global good. Not to dismiss the pain, not to dismiss the pain, um, but to just provide perspective. And if we are in a place where we feel paralyzed in the pain God is right there with us. God is right there with us. If we feel like we've been paralyzed in the pain for year after year after year, he's right there. If we want to leave the pain, he has provided tools and resources in addition to the word of God to help us process through it.

But I know your book is littered with and full of so many of the practical tools that you've used. For the person who's, um, you know, here for this episode right now, they're in their car, they're driving, they're doing dishes, they're out for their morning walk. Um, if you had to name the top 2 or 3 things that, I mean, the benefit, you know, Revelation says we will overcome by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of our testimony. Not only does someone else's testimony encourage you to know that you can make it too, that someone else's story says, okay, I've been there. Um, but also they get to say, okay, how they, I mean, you know, as the old people say, how I made it over. Like, let me not just tell you that I made it over. Let me tell you how it worked. Um, and I know that different tools can be used by different people in different seasons and different amounts and all that. But for the person who's listening, who is feeling it in their body. They, they are feeling— they were tense when we started the topic, and now they're really tense because they're like, oh God, do I have to listen? You reach a point where you have made peace with you out. Like, I— you know what I mean? Like, there is a, there's a hard casing that you can develop that keeps your tender spots protected, but it actually doesn't— exactly what it's keeping out is also not letting the good stuff in. And people get comfortable with the hard cases. Um, and so right now there's a tension. I can feel it where someone's listening because they don't want— they don't want— they don't want to have nothing to do with him even if he's no longer living. They don't want to deal with forgiving him. They've become so comfortable with the anger, disappointment, and unforgiveness. It's become like a friend. So for the person who is weeping with us today, and the person whose body is all tense. And even as they walk down the street, they're like, oh no, no, no, no, I'm not doing, I'm not doing that. What are, what are 2 or 3 things that you're like, if you're open to really and truly knowing what it is to be unbothered and have no residue, if you're open to being able to connect with God in new ways because you understand the heart of God, if you're open regardless of relationship with your father, to know what it is for forgiveness to free you. What are the 2 or 3 tools that you think give you the most mileage for your investment of time, energy, effort, or tears?

I would— this is not a tool, this is a task. And the first step is just acknowledging Just that, that admittance that I had my freshman year of college, being willing to say, "I'm not okay." That is ground zero. That's ground zero. It seems like something easy to do, but if we're in denial, if we are trying to build this tough exterior that won't let any emotion out or in, then that's going to be like climbing Mount Everest, uh, to, to acknowledge I am not okay. I jokingly say, I am not saying get a megaphone and announce this at Thanksgiving dinner. Hey, guess what? This is what Dad did. This is how I'm feeling about that. I don't recommend that anyways, but along with God with God who knows everything about you. He knows the words before they come out of our mouth. He knows the hairs on our head. Acknowledge God, you're sovereign, you're omnipotent, you're holy, you're righteous, you're compassionate, you care about the things that, uh, I'm concerned about. I am not okay with what my father did when I was 3, 15, 27, 36, 49, 77. Just recently held a 77-year-old woman in my arms, Chrystal Hurst. She was shaking and trembling because no one had ever given her the permission to say, I'm not okay, I'm not okay. That's the first step. And then the second step is an invitation. I love God. He is, is, he's everything. But what he will not do is force himself on us. He's not going to say, I'm gonna make you obey, I'm gonna make you get healed. No, he's not gonna do that. He waits and waits. Until we decide, uncle, uncle, I need you, God. I'm— I need to be dependent upon you. God will wait on you. And so for those of you who are listening, if you're in the car, if you're washing your dishes, if you're cleaning a poopy diaper, wherever you are right there, you can say, Holy Spirit, I want to invite you into my healing journey. That's really— that right there is kind of all that you need. I'm gonna be— I'm gonna be very honest, even though I want you to buy the book. I wrote the book. I'm trying to sell the book here, you know. But that's really all you— you know, that's really all you need, Chrystal, because God will direct you to what's next. Just as you mentioned, some people— you're feeling the tension, you're feeling the tension. And some people are listening right now. Nothing is happenstance with God. Nothing is like an oops, like, oh my gosh, I didn't know that was going to happen. No, God knew you were going to be listening to this podcast, knew you were going to be watching this YouTube video, knew you— how much you love Chrystal Hurst's podcast. You don't miss an episode. God knew. And so Chrystal Hurst, being used by God, had Kia Stevens to come on the podcast to start talking about father wounds. And now here we go, dealing with that thing that you swept under the rug, that you didn't want to talk about, that you've built up this protective outer shell. And God said, no, I'm gonna send Kia Stevens on that podcast because I know she always listens to that, and I'm gonna let Kia's Words bulldoze right through that tough exterior. And so here we are, here we are. Uh, God will use a podcast, he will use a friend, he will use a message, he will use a child. Jesus, help us. He could use a child, he will use whatever. The word of God says the earth is the Lord's. And they that dwell therein. If he want to use a donkey or a zebra or a giraffe, he can use that to penetrate the protective outer shell that we have built around our hearts. Because Jesus said, I have come that they might have life, and life to the full, abundant life. Abundant life is not encasing our heart in a protective covering so that we don't get hurt again, so that we don't have to process undealt with trauma and wounds and that thing that our father never said, or that thing that he never did, or that thing that he did, and that thing that he did say. We don't have to live like that. So that's 1 and 2. And you said 3, then I'd recommend the forgiveness letter. I gotta throw in the empty chair. So that's why I didn't say this, okay? That's 4. I'm sorry, y'all, 4 is a bonus. 4 is a bonus, keep that for free. But with the forgiveness letter, Chrystal Hurst, I sat down across from an empty chair. I did it in my bedroom and I imagined my father was sitting in that chair. I've never read this letter to my dad. And I sat there and I read it to him as if he were sitting in that chair. It was the hardest and the most wonderful thing that, that I could have done, uh, because I just cried and cried and cried. But after I cried, I felt a little better. It's kind of like that Disney movie Inside Out. Have you seen that? I'm a Disney nerd. So anyways, in the movie, it is— in the Inside Out movie, for those of y'all who haven't seen it, happiness— these emotions are, are personified in little bitty cartoons. And so the, the emotion that was— no, she wasn't happiness, she was joy. But she was trying to keep sadness from touching everything, like, no, no, no, we don't want to be sad, we don't want to be sad, we don't want to be— no sadness, no. You know, this whole thing is going on. And at the very end of the movie— and I'm sorry for spoiling it for you, but I still recommend you go see it— uh, at the very end of the movie, it turns out that what Riley needed was, was sadness. She needed to grieve. She needed to grieve everything that did not go the way that she wanted it to go. She needed to grieve her disappointment. She needed to grieve moving. She needed to grieve whatever happened. And for a lot of us, we're saying, oh no, in this Instagram, TikTok, Facebook Live world, I need to have joy. I need to be happy all the time. I need to smile all the time. My children need to be well-behaved. My house need to be clean. My husband and I need to like we're in love and at— in Aruba every single day of our lives. You know, that's what I need to project, that's who I need to be. But when in reality, when we allow ourselves to grieve the disappointment— and there's so many things in 2023 that we need to grieve collectively and individually— the reality is that when we allow ourselves and give ourselves permission to grieve, it ushers in a joy that Jesus said this joy been over here all along. I've been having this joy for you. It's been waiting on you, but you done put up all these barricades because you don't want to deal with what's really going on and what happened to you. You want to act like it is nothing and put up this facade. It's— that ain't even real. Jesus is like, that's not even real joy. You're not even really happy. You are faking it, and I have the real sitting over here on the side for you. If you want it, come and get it. Come and get it. Okay, I get spider webbed. Where am I? I'm, I'm giving you, I'm giving you 4 tips and a bonus. Acknowledge, uh, invite, invite the Holy Spirit, do the forgiveness letter, and the empty chair. Boom.

I love that. I, um, could be pulling this out of a hat, but, um, as we wind up, I— there is something different about you. It could be just the day you're having. Um, it also could be because this book has baked a little bit. Um, when we first talked, a little bit of the passion that you just had as you explained Um, those 4 things was there, but in this chat you are more settled, resolved. It's true. For lack of a word, peaceful. Um, the first time we talked, just as good, but more didactic. And here's the answer and here's the the thing that, that this message is going to solve. This time it's, um, more of an invitation, more sensitive, more tender. Yeah, neither one of them is bad or good, it's just I notice it. Why the difference? Do you notice the difference? Do you know what I'm talking about? And if so, why do you think that difference exists in you?

Um, I always— when I start crying in the interview, I'm like, you doing an Oprah on me, Chrystal? You're doing an Oprah and a Barbara Walters. I think that, um, life, if you allow it life will give you a level of sobriety. It'll, it'll settle you in, you know. And I, I feel that happening for me. Um, there's a lot of changes that, you know, I had this book idea in 1997 when I was in high school. Of course, that's when we know everything. And we're God's gift to the universe. Um, and I thank God that no one discovered me, no one was thinking about me. Thank you for all 26 years of obscurity, because you are right in terms of saying the book has baked in me, life has baked in me. There are things that have transpired between my husband that had to come full circle. For me because I'm very vulnerable about, you know, relationships and stuff. And 3 and 4, chapters 3 and 4, there's things that had to bake in me in terms of my relationship with my father, with my mother, uh, and then just in walking with people. When you put a book like this out into the world, anybody that, that has been carrying the weight of their father wounds, if they have the courage, they will, they will find you. They will DM you on Facebook, on Instagram. They will message you in your inbox. They will stop you in the parking lot. They will say, hey, hey, can, can I talk to you? And so when you walk with women like that Um, some of the stories spoke to a woman whose husband committed suicide while she was pregnant with her daughters. They were sitting in a session at a conference. Um, you hear of women who were raped by their fathers. You hear women who never heard their father say, I love you. Women whose father said they were fat, or women who, you know, you just, you just hear all these stories, you know. And the scripture, I forget the reference, that says weep with those who weep, rejoice with those who rejoice, but weep, weep with those that are weeping. That will change you. It will change you. So you're, you're seeing the manifestation of of that, of, of, of, of all of that, what God did in the 26-year period. And I would not change a thing. I would change— I wouldn't change a thing. It's making me more like Christ, who— that's who I want to be like. That's who I want to be like. He was the best at it, you know, when, when he walked the face of the Earth. Weeping with those that weep, you know, holding the broken, uh, and bringing encouragement, being the balm for, for people's woundedness and their brokenness. Jesus did that, and he's calling us to be like him in the earth. So give all the credit to God, because if I wasn't responsible for my maturity level, you would be like, oh my God. No, please.

Oh my God. This is so good. It's so good and so needed. And I know that, you know, when you said the first step is acknowledgement and someone just saying, hey, like, I'm not okay. I know that that moment is happening, has happened, and is still happening for someone who's listening to this. And your yes, even though it was 20-some-odd years in the baking, is going to be a part of the making when it relates to the healing that someone needs. And it's always good for someone to go first, you know, someone to say, hey, this is my story, learn from me. Like I said earlier, we do overcome by the blood of the Lamb. There's no question about that. But that verse does not exclude the word of our testimony. So thank you for your word, your testimony, and the time you spent putting that testimony and the lessons learned in your book, Overcoming Father Wounds. And I hope that— in fact, I know that many of the people who listen today will know because of what they felt in their body that they needed to know the next steps for healing, and that your book will be a big part of that. Thanks so much for joining me, Kia. It's been great.

Yeah, it's been wonderful. Thanks for having me, Chrystal Hurst.