In this interview segment, Candace Payne (the "Chewbacca Mom") discusses the importance of fully feeling and expressing emotions, describing how she uses art, journaling, and body tattoos as tangible reminders of her inner state. She explains the meaning behind her new tattoos—a Swahili word "Faraha" (joy) inspired by a Tanzanian encounter, a bubble symbol representing God's safety, a pause icon urging mindfulness, and an iCloud motif that she interprets as a divine reminder of her uploaded identity and the presence of heaven. Payne introduces the concept of "defiant joy," a confidence‑based joy that persists even when circumstances suggest otherwise, likening it to defying gravity. She ties this joy to a solid understanding of personal identity in Christ, arguing that true, pure joy is a fruit of the Spirit that differs from ordinary happiness. Throughout, she emphasizes that emotional authenticity—crying, laughing, feeling—should be embraced rather than suppressed, and that these practices sustain her faith‑centered resilience.
Chapters
I saw the movie Trolls and bawled my eyes out with my kids because these people don't know how to be happy. A whole people don't know how to be happy. And there's one person that she is the hope bearer for bringing happiness to them. And so I'm like, this is my life right now, Trolls! You know, crying. And my kids are like, "Mom," you know. But that, I drew that troll in the passage that was talking about, "Restore to me the joy of my salvation." Because I wanted to remember that experience of how I felt deeply. I don't think people identify their emotions just on a base level. I think most people are trying to do this to their emotions. And I don't know when that started, but we would all do a lot better to stop that mess. You don't need to let them be the driver, but you need to sit with them and hang, and that's everything. You need to cry when you need when you need to cry, you need to laugh when you need to laugh, you need to feel. That's what we are meant for, is to actually feel. So when I actually do art, it is to transfer a feeling that I've had accompanied with the word.
Have you always been a good emoter?
Yeah.
You've always been a good emoter?
Yeah, you can't stop it, it's just gonna happen.
It's just gonna happen. I'm looking at the art on your arms now, how does it—
Oh, some of it's new, so it's like—
How does a good church girl end up with art like that on her arms?
I was a good church girl. Who said I was a good church girl?
At a Christian college. Yeah, that went to a Christian university.
Nobody said I was a good church girl.
I was a worship leader.
No, seriously.
But you know, again, North, it doesn't seem to be as big of a deal. Down here it's still like, we're like, you shouldn't mark up your arms.
I know, right? This is actually, I just got this made.
I know, that is fresh.
That is fresh.
What does it say?
It's the Swahili word for joy.
Okay, 'cause you saw me over here trying to read that.
I know, everybody will do that with my arm and I kinda, I don't care.
It's still sore?
It looks still a little sore. It's a little sore. But Faraha, it means joy in Swahili. And when I was in Tanzania in May, I had a connection with a lady there that she just kept on saying, "Faraha, Faraha." And I was like, "What is she saying?" Finally, the translator said this incredible statement about how that we have made her joy complete. And I'm looking at this lady thinking, she is the essence of defiant joy. Everything around her shouldn't be joyful, but she can't even get that word off of her tongue. Tongue. And so I just felt like that was a good reminder that I needed to always walk into this, this next season especially, with joy.
Well, you talked about art, even your journaling process, being something that helps you to remember.
Yeah.
So that's kind of what this is. That's what it exactly is.
It's like, this is my biggest reminder right now.
That's what— what is the biggest reminder?
I got this Monday as well. I got two.
Um, you're bold.
I am bold. I don't know what I was thinking. It's obviously on my right hand, which right hand is always the favor of God and and the extension of friendship. So I wanted to remember how good God is. But there is a bubble, and God's just reminded me that I'm safe. I'm always safe, no matter if I'm being interviewed in a church setting, which I'm comfortable with, or a worldly setting where I don't know what they're gonna wanna accuse me of thinking or feeling or pegging me as in judgment because I am a Christian. We've been painted with this really broad paint stroke for so long. And so it's just a reminder I'm always safe with him. If I just stay in His presence. The pause symbol is to remind me to slow down, take in every moment. And then this is the iCloud symbol from iPhone. What is it? The iCloud symbol. Oh yeah. So here's the meaning behind that.
I thought it was a cloud.
I thought it was a heart.
So you made this up?
Yeah. Okay. The iCloud symbol is simply this. During a worship service a couple weeks ago, I just kept on seeing that symbol in my mind. And I felt like God was telling me, "Baby girl, who you are when I purchased you has already been uploaded here where I'm at. Your response to me is just downloading the presence of heaven everywhere you go." And I felt like this is just a reminder every time I look at it to know that I'm safe, that I need to pause and always ask for his wisdom and just release an atmosphere of heaven wherever I go.
I love that.
So that's my biggest reminder. Yeah, I love that.
Well, it's in the right spot because every time you reach down to do anything or write anything— you keep talking about defiant joy. What is defiant joy?
Well, um, it's funny you asked that. We actually have a curriculum coming out with my book that they named it defiant joy because I say this phrase all the time, and, um, it, it's really Not defiant in a mean sense of the word. Like, we don't think of a kid when they do something and they're defiant.
It's not necessarily positive.
It's like gravity. When you defy gravity, it's a hold of what should be the norm that you go against. And when I look at joy, that is the joy that everybody wants, it's when you shouldn't have it. It's when the world sees you and you should be completely done in, done under, and yet you still hold your head high. And you still have this reserve of strength and whimsy and this laugh that happens.
There's a lot of people that have strength that don't have joy necessarily.
No.
So they'll be strong in the moment, but they're not smiling. They're in whimsy. I think you can use that word a lot of times too. Just the choice. It's, it's, it's more than showing up and still standing because you can still stand and not have joy.
Absolutely. Well, and I feel like you asked me a second ago, who are you? I feel like God's shown me that I am whimsical wisdom. Like, I really feel like it's okay to have both. It's okay. Some people may assume that I feel pressure being a joy bearer all the time or trying to remain up and positive, but the reality is nobody's like that 100% of the time.
So how do you keep from feeling that way?
I don't care.
So you don't—
do you have to work to keep it?
When you talk about defying joy, defying gravity, I don't have to work so hard to defy gravity here. You take me to the moon, I mean, there's no— it doesn't exist. In another place, it may be hard for me to lift my— we've been on that ride at Six Flags where it goes fast.
I know what you're talking about.
And you're—
it's a wall.
Yeah. Ever do it? You don't like rides?
No, I remember doing it, but it wasn't Six Flags because of East Coast, but I remember doing it, and now it just makes me sick to my stomach to even think about it.
Yeah, yeah.
That's because I'm 40.
Oh, I get you, I get you. I get you.
But when you're riding on that ride and your body is sucked to the back of the thing and then the floor drops out from under you.
Yeah.
You try to lift a finger.
Uh-huh.
You know, that is, that is more defying. So how does it keep from feeling strenuous when everything about your circumstances don't lift it? How do you defy it and not feel drained from?
Well, one of the things I talk about in my curriculum that I can share here is joy is definitely not arrogant, but it is confident. And I think—
what's the difference?
I think people— listen, when you know who you are, you can be in any room, any circumstance in life, and you can go through it with a smile on your face if you know who you are. But I think most people, when we are hit, it rocks our whole identity to the—
didn't know before.
Yeah, and it's like, am I gonna be this now? Am I gonna be known as this? Or am I just gonna be a victim now? Am I gonna be this now? It's almost like we wrap up everything that happens to us to become on us what we are. And really, there's something much deeper at the core of us that you can't take away. And that should make you happy in any room. And that's the kind of defiant joy that I saw in my friend in Tanzania.
I mean, so you're saying that the ability to have a confident joy is first and foremost rooted in a solid understanding of who you are?
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
So would you then also say that it's not possible to have joy if you don't know who you are?
Hmm.
I would say pure joy. I would say pure joy is, is this impossibility. Because listen, I do believe people find a payoff somewhere. They find a payoff of things that make them feel a certain way, so then they repeat that behavior again. It makes them feel a high, it makes them feel appreciated, it makes them feel valued. But I don't know if that's pure joy, and I think that's what people are searching for, is pure joy.
So I guess in my mind, this is when the growing up church and speaking Christianese comes, and I'm sure other people are thinking that, because it was always— so do you use joy and happy interchangeable? Or is it that happy is the emotion you feel when something is— when it's actually the way you want it to be, and joy is what you have no matter what is going on?
I know that those phrases are not interchangeable for me. They do bear some slight variations in color. But I do, when I look at pure joy, it is only one thing, and it is a fruit of the Spirit. It's a fruit of something external, but yet if you are a believer in Christ and you have him inside of you, that becomes very internal to your core. So therefore—
So anybody can experience happiness, but pure joy only comes from one place.
Pure joy comes from one. I mean, as a matter of fact, right now what I'm doing, when I study scripture is I'm replacing every time I see the word joy with the fruit of the Spirit. So if you would say the joy of the Lord is my strength, that passage, I, I say it like this: the fruit of the Spirit of the Lord is my strength. And it makes a complete difference because I'm like, oh, wait a minute, this doesn't have to have me wrapped in it, choosing it, trying to make it, force it. It looks at the ebb and flow of what Spirit does naturally, and then I go, oh hey, that doesn't depend on me.
