Pivot Into Purpose with Emmanuel Acho

And those years, of course, Steffie, Chi-Chi, both, uh, Steffie definitely, uh, had decided she wasn't going to go the Chi-Chi route, so she wasn't doing the college prep school and all of that. But I remember all of these discussions because your parents, of course, are extremely pro-high education about what y'all were going to do, where you were going to go, the dreams that your dad had for you, um, that both your parents worked really hard to make sure that you all could be where you needed to be, to have the experiences that you needed to have. But you're the baby of 4, and I want to know, with siblings that were going off to college, getting these great degrees, having these big dreams, how did that feel to you being the youngest child? Um, were you motivated by it? Intimidated by it? Oh my goodness, how am I going to live up to this? What am I going to do? Determined to show them what you had? Like, what, what did that do? This is something Jonathan and I have talked about before, him watching me, Priscilla, Anthony, and all of us doing their thing with him then trying to figure out his thing. What was that like for you?

I love that question. Um, for me, I think it was motivating because I got to see their successes, but more importantly, I got to see their failures. And I think they say, uh, a wise man— a fool learns from his own mistakes, a wise man learns from the mistakes of others. And thankfully, Chrystal, I really got to learn from the mistakes, if you will, of my siblings. My older brother Sam, he played football at the University of Texas. I obviously go on to play football at the University of Texas one year after him. And so I really got to learn from watching everybody else, what to do, what not to do. Chi Chi, she might write a family history paper 7 years before me. Family history ain't changed. So when it was time for me to write a family history paper, you better believe they was going to get that same paper. So no, um, and Chi Chi being my oldest sister, for those that will listen to this and are listening. So, um, yeah, I think I benefited more than anything.

Well, I know that, um, you know, one of the things that, that you definitely have seen as you talk about your family and share sometimes on social media pictures or instances with your family— family is obviously very important to to you. I know that. I think the rest of the world can learn by watching you. I had a special kind of joy when you bought your dad the car, like, just to watch him kind of just— it's very hard to catch Dr. Acho where he's just totally like, are you serious right now? I mean, you definitely got him in that moment. That was fun to watch. You honor them, your mom going with me, future, the award shows. So that's been fun. But obviously, um, your upbringing, your background, um, is a part of the story, but the story that you have created for yourself is definitely your own. And we all got to know you with Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man and just the idea, you just kind of went with it and being your own person and having your own conversation. We've had the chance to watch you continue to do your own thing. I think my first question for you is, of all of the conversations that were uncomfortable, which of them was the most uncomfortable for you?

The most uncomfortable for me may have been when I sat down with a group of police officers. I sat down in Petaluma, California, right outside of Oakland, population of 60,000, less than 2% Black, and I sat down with a group of all-white police officers. Now, so many people might ask, Well, Emmanuel, why did you choose to sit down with all white police officers? I didn't choose. All the police officers just happened to be white because that area is predominantly white. That was uncomfortable only because we're trained subconsciously to fear the police. Who is we?

Who is we?

Well, we, I think Black people, obviously. And then I think society at large. I don't know. I can only speak for me because I can only speak from the frame of reference of a 6'2", 240-pound Black man. And we are subconsciously kind of told to fear the police. I can't speak for my white brothers and sisters and their fears or lack thereof. So as I entered into this room with everybody, bulletproof vests, guns holstered, all of these different ranking officials, that was probably the most uncomfortable, if you will, I had been over the course of the dialogue. Only because naturally your body's anxiety raises, the cortisol levels, they shift. You get a little more tense, if you will, just by the nature of your surroundings. But as soon as the conversations popped into being, they ended up being uncomfortable because now I'm in the driver's seat. I'm the one running the dialogue.

Just in case they didn't know, then it was my show. Well, I think that's really interesting that you bring about this idea of this body language. There is so much that you do with your body. And what I mean by that is, of course, you played football. Of course, you're an athlete. You know, you run around on social media making sure we know that shirt on, shirt off. But the point is this. There is definitely, for lack of a better word to say it, there is a swag that you bring to the table., that you just have. Where did you pick that up? Is it because you played football? Is it the football player swag? Is it the truly sourced out of innate original confidence? Um, but it is everywhere that you come. Your body language when you talk, the way you move your hands when you talk. And it's not so much, uh, it is not a broadcaster's body language because there is a broadcaster's body language. It's not quite a football player's body language because I know that body language well. It is something that you truly kind of bring with you, and I notice it because it's so high. The confidence level is so high, and it— but it's not, um, I mean, I don't— I can't say it's ego or not. I'm just gonna say it doesn't come across as stupid prideful. It just is this clear body language of however you carry yourself wherever you go. And don't let you have on some you know, high swagger suit before you go to some kind of show, then you really— then you really— but seriously, um, you know, one of the things I think that can happen, uh, that is a negative— and negative side of this, and you see this happen with football players all the time, especially, um, people that maybe not— maybe don't come from high means. Not that you did, just everything is fresh, everything is new. And so, um It's too far. Does that make sense? It, it goes too far. It is, it's like wearing new shoes that are totally uncomfortable and you can tell some people just don't know what to do with that. So that's kind of why it strikes me differently. And I just wanted to ask you, what do you think the source of that confidence is, the translation of that in your body language, no matter where you are, or what did you have to do to work on that to build it?

Great. So I think that confidence comes from preparation and a belief in one's ability. And I think that everybody can be confident, but they have to have something to have confidence in. And now as a speaker, I have incredible confidence because I found that is where I am most talented and that is where I can add the most value to society. And so I think confidence is to some degree innate, but in all honesty, you throw me on a golf course, your boy ain't gonna have no confidence. 'cause I'm not good at golf. But if you threw me, throw me in a room with some of the best orators of our modern day, I will feel right at home because I have realized that is where I am most gifted. And I encourage everybody to just try to figure out where are you most gifted, 'cause that's where the confidence comes from. The confidence comes from knowing I have this ability to execute at this task. I can sit in, a room with a whole bunch of police officers. Now, when it comes down to fighting crime, they gonna feel confident. If they need to walk into a room and they gotta apprehend somebody, that's on them. But when it comes to sitting and knowing that I can put every word exactly together, exactly how I want to, um, that's where that truly stems from. So not a sports thing, uh, maybe to some degree an innate thing, watching my father speak for a living. Yeah, uh, as you did and as you do. But I think truly it just comes from finding and figuring out my calling and living out my calling.

Well, let's talk about that a little bit more because, you know, calling is a big word, purpose is a big word. And, uh, when you start throwing that out, people are like, you know, the question is then, how do I? So for you, speaking, you just one day were asked to do something and it was like, oh, I'm good at this accidentally. Do you feel like it wasn't— you weren't good at it at first and you worked at it? I mean, like you said, there is the watching, there is the sitting. I actually had someone say that to me once. It was in 2007 and I went to work on a— it was kind of this little retreat for speakers and writers, and we had to all give a 3-minute talk. And I gave my 3-minute talk, and she pulled me to the side and she said, "Listen, I'm not even exactly sure why you're here. I don't think you have given credit to the fact that you've been sitting watching a master speaker for," at that time, "35, 40 years. And you just innately, you have it. The introduction, the conclusion, the 3 points, you know how to put a talk together." But I had not ever paid attention to that. So I walked into that scenario thinking, not that I don't need work or can't improve, but I walked in thinking, let me come in like everybody else. Like I have nothing and need you to start me from ground zero. I wasn't registering that. So I'm curious how it registered or has registered for you over time that that's your thing. I mean, we all know it is now, but where did you begin with that?

That's so, that's great. Um, because so many people do wonder how can they figure out their callings? I said this when I was very first asked that question. I said this: your calling will call you, just pick up.

Yeah.

And so now people are like, wait, what the heck do you mean? What do you mean? So what people don't realize, after Uncomfortable Conversations, the first episode, I got a call 5 days later, Chrystal Hurst. No caller ID number. True story. I pick it up. Acho, McConaughey speaking. I want to have a conversation. I'm like, what the heck? McConaughey? Like, Matthew McConaughey? He's like, yeah, man, I want to have a conversation. So Matthew McConaughey and I sit down, we record that conversation. That was episode 2. 5 days later, I get another no-caller ID call. Hi, Emmanuel, Oprah Winfrey speaking. I was like, Oprah? Like, Oprah? We sit down. 2 weeks, maybe 2 months later, I get a call, another no-caller ID number. It's Commissioner of the National Football League, one of the most powerful men in sports. Sports, which literally own one day of the week, and it's, hey, Emmanuel Roger Gadel here. I, uh, just wanted to sit down with you and have a conversation. Love what you've been doing. My calling literally called me. I just had to pick up. So how did I figure out what my calling was? It's by understanding what do I naturally gravitate towards. Um, I naturally gravitate towards communicating with different people. I naturally gravitate towards trying to take something that one group doesn't understand and make it digestible and palpable for another group to understand, trying to act as a bridge, trying to act as a mediator. So how do people find their callings? What are you naturally gifted at and what are you naturally passionate about? And then you just from there sharpen that sword, I believe. But it's just a matter of finding out what are you naturally gifted at, naturally passionate about, and you work from that ground and you build upwards.

But before Uncomfortable Conversations, where did your comfort with speaking— when do you remember ever having a time where you were uncomfortable either speaking or asking questions to other people? Or is it as long as you can remember, this has been a thing?

No. In college, I go back and watch me speaking in college and I was like, gosh, I was terrible. Like doing— I had to do interviews, obviously, as a team spokesperson at the University of Texas when I was playing ball there. Every Monday we had media availability and like Oh gosh, watching now makes me cringe. Now, in retrospect, for a 19-year-old with no media training, I was probably decent, but compared to me now, I look at myself like, uh, um, I didn't always have the ability I would say I have now, but I think it's a matter of I always had a natural proficiency.

That's a good word, natural proficiency. I like that.

For me, it's helping people, and I just encourage people figure out like, what are you naturally proficient at? Like, what are you naturally better at than everybody else? I was naturally better at speaking than most people. I ain't naturally the best at math. I ain't naturally the best at science, but I'm naturally good at communicating. After finding that out, now, Chrystal Hurst, I just had to sharpen and sharpen and sharpen and sharpen. So no, I did not always have it, but I will say Uncomfortable Conversations was now like the cherry on top. It cemented me as I could do it. And really, I'll leave you with this story and leave this question with this story. It was the call that changed my life was June 9th. It was now like the third time I had spoken to Oprah. We had just finished a conversation, the Oprah conversation for Apple TV. It meant Uncomfortable Conversations. I sat down with her. She calls me right after that. I missed the call. Terrible idea, missing Oprah's call. So I call her back, I'm like, you know, little call her back, and she says this, she says, "Emmanuel, you have the thing, my friend, you have the thing." And coming from someone who had the thing and has the thing, "You, my friend, you have the thing." And essentially she was saying, "You have a gift at communicating difficult messages and people want to continue to hear." It was Oprah kind of stamping my ability that has now allowed me to walk and even more confidence.

That's good. I know that your newest book, Illogical, you say my illogical path led me straight to my truest calling. Um, can you give us some examples? And I know that there are plenty in the book of what— what— because everything that you've said so far is kind of logical. Okay, I'm a preacher's son. I watch somebody speak every Sunday. I have had a great education. I went to a great school in Dallas. I went to a great college, even though, like you said, without media training we were available to the media on Monday. I had practiced speaking. I've had the opportunity to make a lot of great connections just because of who you are, family, but also football and just the availability through college and also through your professional career to make connections that may have opened doors for you that otherwise may not have opened naturally. But I would love to hear maybe another one or two examples about how things have been illogical in your life, because it's very easy for me, and I know I hear it all the time, whether it's from people responding to the podcast or watching, um, what I'm talking on, um, YouTube or whatever I'm sharing. And people always will go, well, it was easier for you than for me. Like, they, they look at the path and they say, well, you had this and you had this. And so I think it would be helpful just to hear about a little bit of the zigzag. What are some of the things, at least one or two, that might be interesting for people to know or help them to go, oh, Well, maybe if for him, then for me too.

The first is a little more unrelatable, but it is an oh moment. The second is relatable. After 4 years in the National Football League, I decided to call it quits. I was 25 years of age. I had just finished a season in which literally within 1 year, I had been ranked one of the top linebackers, et cetera. I decided to call it quits because in the National Football League, after 4 years, you have your vested pension. You have annuity. So I retire at 25. I literally— the oldest text message on my phone, August 4th, 2016, I still keep it. It is from the Buffalo Bills. Hey Emmanuel, this is so-and-so with the Buffalo Bills. Can you give me your date of birth and your Social Security? I want to get you a flight for a workout. I was a free agent at the time. I didn't respond, Chrystal Hurst. He texted me again. Hey Emmanuel, need your date of birth, kind of get you a flight for a tryout tomorrow. I don't respond. At that point in time, I said, you know what, I'm going to say no to the National Football League. That was my first, if you will, illogical decision. Why in the world at 25 would you give up on what so many people call a dream? Because I dreamed bigger for myself. I knew, you know what, there's gonna be a greater life for me outside of sports. In the NFL, unless I was gonna be a Hall of Famer or a Pro Bowl type of player, I was like, you know what, it's time to move on. Illogical move one. Illogical move two, obviously the biggest thing I've done in my life is uncomfortable conversations with a Black man. Here's what people don't realize. Episode 1, I decided to rent an all-white studio in Austin, Texas. I was supposed to do it with a dear white friend of mine, but at the last moment, she got cold feet. Well, last moment, literally an hour, 4 minutes before call time, she had a change of heart. So she didn't do it with me. For those that haven't seen the first episode, I'm sitting in an all-white room talking directly to camera for 9 minutes, 16 seconds. I am asking myself questions, and I am answering the questions. It is a monologue. But remember, it's titled "Uncomfortable Conversations." with a Black man. Not uncomfortable, monologue with a Black man. It was only a monologue because my dear friend at the last second changed the part. Great. So I rent this studio, I hire a wedding videographer to shoot it. There was no high-level production team, listeners. There was no high-level dedicated staff. I hired a wedding videographer and his wife to shoot it. I called my best friend who's an Olympic gold medalist at the Rio Olympics in 2016, and I asked her to stand in as my producer. There were 4 people in the room on the day that I shot Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man. Within 5 days, it had 25 million views. For context, I only had 31,000 Instagram followers at the time. I remember. Only had maybe 20,000 Twitter followers at the time. So for those that go look at Emmanuel Acho now with, you know, 900 or whatever Instagram followers, 900,000 or whatever I have, this was not that and that was not this. I was just a, NFL washup who sat in an all-white room that he paid for, hired a wedding videographer, called his best friend who runs at the Olympics, sat in a chair, talked for 9 minutes, and before you know it, my world changed. All because of really not only that illogical thought, but a logical execution that you could sit in a room by yourself, talk to a camera, and people would listen. Um, that would be the second piece.

I think that, you know, what I love about all of that— and I know that there have been different points where you've recounted parts of that story— what I love about all of that is that, um, it's not illogical to us, but it made sense to you. It was also, in some regard, at least the conversation piece, illogical to you. You know, I'm sure at the moment your friend bails out, you're like, okay, I'll do it, but ugh, and I've rented the studio, so I'm not I mean, I'm here now. Like, I have to, you know, I have to make good on that. I do want to take it back, though, a little bit to the football decision. What the decision that you made, though, is actually a fairly mature decision for many players who after 4 years, who whatever, they love the game or they're still looking for a certain experience or they want to max out the time that they have. You see a lot of players keep playing. Um, for a variety of reasons. And so I think for you to calculate and say, all right, I'm vested here. Um, I've done my homework here. I know what's possible and not possible or likely. And maybe as much as I love the game, this is not how I want to spend the rest of my time. That's still a fairly mature decision. Is that a decision that you came to on your own? Is that the decision, a decision that you had input with that kind of was helping you to measure? Like, that's still pretty young to count all that stuff up. And then land the plane at no, like you said to the people.

Well, the hard part is landing the plane, Chrystal Hurst. See, we have hindsight bias in society.

True.

So retroactively, I can say, yeah, it was a brilliant decision at the time, though, y'all. Yo, it was the scariest decision of life. Every Saturday for 18 years, every Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, From August to January, I was on a football field, period. Every Saturday without fail. Then all of a sudden I made a decision to bring that to an end just because, like, physically could still do it. Athletically, they say men hit their peak at 26. So like, physically, I ain't even hit my prime yet. In hindsight, it appears to have been a great and a mature decision because of how it worked out. But I always tell people, It'll work out if you work it out. And so I just had to figure out, Chrystal Hurst, how to work it out. The problem is so many people hang on to this dream and this, this goal and this ambition. But I was like, yeah, there's got to be more. There's got to be more than this. And the stress and anxiety and the fear and trepidation that comes with playing in the National Football League is something I never want again, and I didn't even want at the time. And that's why it was a mature decision, but I had to make it.

Okay, so this is the Sister Circle Podcast, which means you are a brother that's come into the circle of sisters, right? But what you just talked about, those are things I know all people can struggle with, but we are talking about a lot— fear, trepidation, and anxiety. When you say that, what does that mean? What was the fear, trepidation, and anxiety that was coming along with playing in the league.

Tuesday, 3 PM Eastern Standard Time, the scariest time every week during the NFL season, because at 3 PM on Tuesday is when you get paid. What people do not realize, you do not have to play on Sunday. You do not have to be on the roster on Sunday. If you were on the team after Tuesday at 3 PM, you get paid for that week. So if the Dallas Cowboys employ me at Tuesday 3:01 PM, they can fire me on Wednesday, but they must still pay me for that week. Because if you were on the roster at Tuesday at 3:01, you get paid. What does that mean? You gonna get cut before 3 if they cut you. Cut means released in the National Football League. So as a person who was just a fringe NFL player, there are 53 people people on an NFL active roster. I was maybe the 49th to 53rd person just trying to stay afloat. As a person who is a borderline NFL player, you will get cut at a moment's notice. True story. I was, I think, at Tiffany's house. Tiffany lives in Philly. For those that are just now tuning in, we started this dialogue by talking about Chrystal and Tiffany. Miss Tiffany, I call her still, were my quote unquote babysitters. Tiffany currently lives in Philly. I played for the Philadelphia Eagles. I was at Tiffany's house, call it 2013. It would have been whatever holiday is in late August or September. I don't know.

Labor Day.

Memorial Day. President's Day.

Labor Day. Yes.

I get a call while at her house eating barbecue. She had thrown down. I get a call that I am going to get fired by the Philadelphia Eagles. While eating barbecue at Tiffany's house. I don't think I told her because I ain't gonna embarrass myself. So I, yo, I gotta go, I gotta go. Yeah, yeah, let me get some floss to get this little barbecue chicken out my teeth. And so it was just so anxiety-ridden never knowing if you will be employed from one week, one day, one moment, one minute to the next.

So that definitely resonates with a lot of people right now because of course the pandemic has thrown everybody out of whack. And even though there's the great resignation on one hand with people deciding what they want to do with their lives for a living, and companies are desperately looking for people that they can hire, the other side of that, it has definitely thrown a wrench in people's income. It is, you know, COVID, the whole situation has shifted industries where people have worked in a job or an industry for a certain amount a time and now the way that that industry or that corporation now works is differently. It just has thrown us all off. So you have people that because of the pandemic who feel like they're losing a sense of their expected life because of the shifts and changes. What would you say right now to a person who has not yet found their footing? Okay, we are, you know, 2 years in at this point. And even if they have found a job, even if they have changed careers, maybe the hit to their finances, they're still reeling from that. Maybe the hit to their heart, someone that they loved passed away, um, related to COVID or not. It's just been a hard 2 years and they haven't found their footing. Because what you just described is in the middle of eating barbecue, which we were all in the middle of living our lives, and things changed in a moment. And in a moment we all had to pivot. And some of us feel like we've recovered and some of us do not. What would you say to the person who's still in the middle of their pivot?

It's twofold. Um, the first thought is what you think is a door might be a wall. Stop knocking and keep moving. So, so many people sitting there knocking on what they think is a door in life. That's not a door, y'all. It's just a wall. It's not gonna open. Um, and for me, the NFL— and I'll use my story to bring this back— the NFL It was a wall. Like, I was knocking on it, staying on the roster one week to the next, but it was a wall. I had to move on in life to something greater. The second thing that I would genuinely say is, try to, at least in this time, identify the difference between your career and your calling. Try to, at least in this time, identify the difference. I believe that your career is what you're paid for, your calling is what you're made for. And every now and then those two things will intersect. And what hobby have you not been giving enough time to? What business have you always wanted to start, but you were a little too scared to? What city have you been trepidatious to move to because your family has always lived in small town X, Y, and/or Z? Um, what do you think is a business that you wanted to start, but you've just been too passive about it? I think that we are all in a very, very, very hard time But let's utilize this time to really find ourselves more. And you don't have to find yourself by looking elsewhere, just find yourself by looking within. That's what I would tell people. But they say the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. And too many people are functioning in a manner that we would classify as insane. Waking up, same thing, going to sleep, same thing, waking up, same thing, going to sleep, same thing. We have to start— stop doing the same things over and over. And then lastly, Chrystal, I think I would just say, just go for it. Right? Like, truth be told, when I started Uncomfortable Conversations, I had to come out of my pocket to rent the studio space. I had to hire the wedding videographer. I had to call my Olympic gold medalist friend. After my friend backed out on me, true story, which I left out, Chrystal, I called another friend, a dear white friend of mine, hey, can you just sit here, ask me these 4 questions, smile, look cute. I can't lie to you, I can't lie to you, nor will I, problem is she had a, like, I don't know, a year, a 1-year-old that was teething or something. So she was like, I can't, Emmanuel, my baby's sick. I was like, oh Lord Jesus. So I was like, so I'm really gonna have to do this by myself. And I always say it's okay to go alone so long as you go. And I think that would be my encouragement.

That's good stuff. You made a decision to do something that was illogical, at least to a lot of people, they would have said that that was illogical. How did that affect, or did it, the expectations that other people, family, friends— your brother played a little bit longer, um, did, did they just go, yeah, yeah, Emmanuel, whatever you want to do, that's just fine, that's— we're, we're here, we support you 100%, we trust you to make the right decision, we think you have a good head on your shoulders? Is that what you got? From everybody? And I'm talking about people who are, you know, in your close circle, because we know everybody, certain concentric circles out, will have their own opinion. But in your close circle, did everybody get with you even if they couldn't understand? Or how did you have to manage the expectations of other people who had a little bit more logic, or expected you to have more logic than what you apparently did?

Oh, I love that question as well. Um, truth be told, one of the most difficult moments was when I took, um, Uncomfortable Conversations, the idea of it, to my team, and some people on my team said, Emmanuel, the market is too saturated for a book like this. Um, I, I reached out to them on a Wednesday to discuss this concept on Thursday, and they hit me up and were like, hey, we're too busy, can we talk about it on Monday? Man, by Monday, the whole world could have changed. I decided to drop Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man on Sunday. So those nearest to me, those who I literally pay to advise me, told me that The One Concept, which has now been a New York Times bestseller and won an Emmy, was not going to fit into the market because of the market saturation.

Yeah.

And I say that to say, your calling is your calling. It's not a conference call. All, right? So I say that to say I had to move off my conviction, not anybody else's. So the first— the answer to 1A of that question is sometimes people who you pay, trust, and love are going to doubt the destiny on your life, but you got to move according to your own convictions. Now, did expectations change? Absolutely. But I always say I don't fully think that money changes you. I think that money exposes you to who you truly are, and I think money changes the people around you, and thus you have to change as a result of that money along with fame, etc. So the expectations for me have drastically changed, um, but the support, I didn't fully have it at the time.

So what are the expectations that have changed?

Well, now the expectation I think is excellence, and it's always excellence. And I don't know if that's the expectation of the world around me or the expectation of the world within me, but it's excellence now. And I also think— I was sitting with a dear friend last night over dinner and she made a phenomenal point. She's in the industry, one of the top recording artists of all time, and she said, "One no will make people forget a thousand yeses." It's true. So now people, people ask me to do something and I say no, they forget all the yeses that I've given them historically because of this one no. And so I think the expectation is that I am just as available and free as I was then, and I think it's just a tough thing to wrestle with because I haven't really changed. My time has just changed, and now the expectation is Hey, Emmanuel, you're Mr. Uncomfortable Conversation, so you should always be nice and loving and empathetic. And I know you can't be human. You must always just be like Mr. Nice Guy. And it's a tough act to consistently follow.

So what is your way to say no? That's something that you can say no, and no is a complete sentence. But when you are dealing—

I wish it was. They say that, Chrystal Hurst. No ain't a complete sentence, man. I don't know who y'all dealing with. I remember you did an IG Live with your sister. It would have been maybe 16 months ago now. I don't know why I just hopped on and listened to it, you and Priscilla. And I think you were joking that Priscilla has a great spirit of—

anointing. She has the no anointing.

Um, and I vividly remember listening to that maybe 16 months ago now. It could have been longer. We've been in COVID for forever. And I marked that because I was like, like, yo, I wish I had that anointing. I'll be trying to package and massage my nose. I'll be trying to, you know, I just don't have the bandwidth right now for, um, such an activity. Uh, you know, uh, let me check, check back with me, uh, next Monday. Yeah, you know, I, um, I love this concept and this idea. Now's just not the right time. My no anointing is terrible.

But I mean, that doesn't sound like a bad no anointing. It just sounds like it's a little graceless. And that people may or may not hear you clearly, but you said it and you said it with kindness. It's still no.

People, people don't hear the message. Them nos don't work, Chrystal Hurst. Those nos do not work. No, it's not a complete sentence. Do not believe that. You better have no— because here's the thing, I feel like in this day and age I have to justify my nos.

I understand that. You don't have to. You feel like you have to.

Yes.

But that has to do, I think, with, you know, what do I know, right? But that for me usually has to do with the perception that I want to— even if I don't care— that I want to maintain, because I don't want you to think incorrectly about me because I gave you a no. So I lace it with all these things so your opinion about me won't, won't change, because I know I'm the same and I want you to believe that. But I think there is a release that you cannot control no matter what you do, matter how you lace it, um, they're gonna believe what they want to believe. And so I think, I think no can be a complete sentence, um, and sometimes it has to be because if I add any other words to it, they don't hear the first word I said. So I'm with you, it's hard, it is hard. And I actually want to, I actually want you to come over for lunch and I want to meet you for coffee and I would love to hear about your problem and endorse your book and show up on your stage and I would love to So when I say no and gracefully say it a few times, and if they don't get it, I literally do say, girl, I love you, but no. That's it. And it— but the thing is, here's what, here's what freed me though. What freed me is that I realized no matter what I do, I'm going to end up in the same place. So I can either make it a long journey with all the extra ins and outs and figure eights of all the beautiful nos or they're gonna think what they're gonna think. So I could just get there faster and have less stress. That's me.

I'm gonna start responding with, I love you, comma, but no. Yeah, and I'm gonna report back. I'm gonna report back for this conversation and let you know how it go. I'm gonna send you a screenshot and let you know how it go.

Okay, I look forward to that. Listen, this is the part where We cannot do it, or, or so do it, but I have people who want to know. Inquiring minds want to know. You know where I'm going. You are single, you are eligible, you sat on The Bachelor, but we were all looking at you talking to them and thinking, when does somebody get to do this to Emmanuel? When do we get to see him. And we've seen, you know, you're, you're kind of COVID with it, but I, you know, been around long enough to know. So there have been people, you know, that you've dated or that you look like you might be dating, and then that ended. And I know that, you know, you, you're leaving trails of friendships, but like, what is the deal? You're what, you're 30?

What, I'm 31 now.

Okay, are we too busy? Is that what the deal is? What is the, what's the problem? Have you just not met the right one? Do you— did you— are you still figuring out who the right one is? You know what I love?

I love, I love leaving trails of friendships. Um, that should be a Hallmark card. Uh, Emmanuel Acho leaving trails of friendship. Um, no, what, what is— what is the honest answer? I think the honest answer is, as I adjust trying to figure out where I land— I was sitting with Kirk, and you know Kirk, Kirk. Yeah, well, better than I do. Um, so I'm sitting with Kirk Franklin, obviously, for those listening, and he, he's in LA all the time. Yeah. And, um, him and his wife are sitting there, we're having, we're having breakfast at the Four Seasons, and he says, you're a new person, don't be afraid to pause, pause, pause.

I'm so sorry to interrupt you, just sidebar, tell the people about the breakfast at the Four Seasons. If you just have one time in your life where you can do it Why do people need to go and make room in their life at least once for breakfast at the Four Seasons?

Yo, the Four Seasons breakfast, it does smash. It genuinely does smack, particularly the one in Beverly Hills. I'm not gonna lie to y'all. Um, particularly it's the waffles for me.

It's the waffles with the maple syrup and the, you know, the the naturally blended whipped cream, all that.

Tomorrow you're gonna make me go tomorrow. They're French toast. Anyway, I digress, I digress. Let's focus, people. Um, so I'm sitting there and Kirk is like, yo, you're a new person, don't be afraid to meet new people. And I think it challenged so many of my concepts because I always wanted to, um, be known and know best someone who knew me before uncomfortable conversations, who knew me before, you know, the fame and all that other jazz, because It's just whatever we say that influences us. Yeah, right. Like, now I'm just a different person. Now people treat me differently. Oh, you know Oprah? Like, it's just different now. And so for me, honestly, is trying to figure out where I'm settling at in life. And I don't mean settle as in like, oh, I am, uh, uh, stopping at this point, but more so like my life goes from playing in the NFL to living in Austin to hosting The Bachelor, to winning. You know, I guess just, okay, who is Emmanuel Acho and who does the world think I am better than so I can actually figure things out?

Is there anything that you miss about the anonymity?

Oh yes. God, oh man. I think I have like late onset social anxiety. I used to like— now when I go out in public I'm always— I was at a winery yesterday in Temecula, California. We literally walked outside the car. I was with 4 people. I got out the car, and after like 30 seconds, I was like, yo, we gotta go. I like—

in Temecula of all places? I mean, you gotta drive inland for that.

Correct. In Temecula, we get out the car, and I look up, and it's just like a group of people, and I feel like the whispers in the eyes, my points, and I just I just felt like this rush of discomfort. And we got right back in the car, drove to another low-key vineyard. I don't even drink. I'm just tagging along. So, yes, the anonymity— the days of anonymity were sweet. But I love the life I live now, and there's so many perks that come with it. But it's complex. Life is complex.

It is complex because, you know, while I agree with Kirk 100%, the person you are now, meet new people. Meet new people that connect with the you you've discovered, the you that has always been there, but the you for sure that has, um, access and experiences that make for a different life path. And in my opinion, I could be wrong, but in my opinion, it could complicate things quite a bit because the people who meet and engage with this Emmanuel who don't necessarily need to know pre-uncomfortable conversations, Emmanuel, just making sure that the connections— I mean, and this is something that it doesn't— it's not about dating necessarily. Um, I see this in my own life, women who will, uh, want to connect with me. They see me as a big sister, they're listening to the conversations all the time, and they have decided in their head who I think I am. So when they meet me and connect with me they still have to have the opportunity to get to know me in this new season, not the person that they presume that I am because of what they've seen on a screen or the conversations that they've heard. So have you found that making connections in this season, uh, has been at all more challenging in terms of not making the connections but making deep connections, real connections, um, that you trust? Um, at all? Has that been a thing for you at all?

Well, you know what's interesting is I'm almost like a, um, I'm a friends for life person. I think there are two categories of friendships. There's friendships for seasons and there's friendships for life. My brother is a friendships for a season person, right? Like, my brother will have friends that I'm still friends with but he's not, and they're not enemies. He's just like, no, that season of friendship is over. Yeah. Um, Whereas my closest friends are old friends from St. Mark's School of Texas in Dallas. Texting with one of my best friends from Dallas, he's talking about coming to see me next week. Those are my friendships. So making connections is harder now because I don't have the bandwidth— my favorite word— I don't have the bandwidth to try to assess, okay, are you really authentically here for Emmanuel Acho, or are you authentically here for who you— what you think Emmanuel Acho can bring you. And because of uncomfortable conversations and because now we get the private booth at the restaurant instead of having to wait in line to just sit at the bar. So I don't have the time to try to dissect people's intentions. Yeah. And instead, I just kind of stay to my inner circle and those who knew me before.

Okay. So how does someone become a part of your inner circle? And I'm not asking this like, oh my God, how do we— I don't mean it that way. I mean, in this season of your life to invite people over time with trust in a sensible, wise way to connect with you in the inner circle. So you actually can not just have new relationships and new connections that are on the fringe, but to give people the opportunity to get to know you deeply when that is appropriate, when it makes sense, when, um, when it's something that, um, that you feel that you want to pursue or the other person does. And again, I'm not even talking about dating per se. I'm just saying, because what you're describing that has to do with fame, it has to do with, um, the spotlight and the, the wonderful things that you've had the opportunity to do. A lot of people experience for different reasons. For example, uh, I move, right? I move, I go to another city because of a great job. So I'm there in that other city, I still have my friends in an old city, and I can either keep people on the fringe because these are not my lifelongs, these are not my day ones, or I have to leave room, or I can leave room for the person I'm developing in, for the career opportunity that I have to give opportunity for inner circle people in the new situation. So I'm really curious about what it looks like for you to leave room for new inner circle people in this season of your life.

It looks like watching people as they're in the outer circle. It looks like, like the connections that I grow with now is assessing somebody's character from afar. Because from up close, people can put on a front. But when you see somebody and how they've acted and act over time from afar, that's when you gauge whether or not, you know, you all should try to move towards a better trajectory of proximity, right? Like, and what have you heard about this person from people you trust? Judah Smith, my pastor out here in Cali now, friend of mine, he had been a pastor for one of my teammates in the Seahawks. So my teammate Chris Maragos, when I played in the Philadelphia Eagles, Chris Maragos played in Seattle for the Seahawks. Chris comes to the Eagles. Chris ends up being my locker neighbor in Philly. Locker neighbor just means our lockers are right next to each other in our NFL locker room. Chris has spoken incredibly highly of Judah. So when I come to LA, Judah sees me doing things from afar. I see him doing things from afar. We break bread at the rooftop at the Waldorf, another phenomenal restaurant, by the way.

Just drop the food, just drop the food hints, just drop it.

The Waldorf Rooftop. Um, we go to breakfast and we connect at the Waldorf Rooftop. I go to church, uh, a couple weeks later. I see him at lunch a couple weeks later. And then I would say that like Judah and I both moved into each other's inner circles, but that was because of seeds that were planted from afar, from others, and from distance. So to move into an inner circle, I think whether romantically or just relationally, is really about, you know, you can monitor how people carry themselves from afar.

That's good. That's good. And I really think that'll help people because the tendency is, regardless of what the reason is, is to be self-protective first. But often, whether we're talking about dating or whether talking about a new city or we're talking about a new life brought on by whatever, um, we in protective mode always out of fear, always, we rob ourselves of real connection. And you have to be wise with that, but it's possible to leave the door open. I want to rewind back, um, to something that you said when you were talking about football. You said, as a player on the fringe, a fringe player, 49 out of 53 on the roster, and then you bring your career with football to a close, and you said, it's time, and it's time for me to do the next thing. That a logical decision was not necessarily understood or supported by everyone in your closest circle. That said, you still had the ability mentally, the mental strength to say, I can be a fringe player and make something of my life. That right there to me is illogical because a lot of people will take the assessment that they have of themselves and work one circumstance and extract, extract that, extrapolate that into the next season. They have a hard time even having expectancy about another season or another dream or even trying to dream because they still see themselves as the 49th player out of 53. They still see themselves as a fringe player. In fact, if they have to articulate how they see themselves, they have a hard time even articulating that. And I know we're talking about now, years later, but you had that knowledge and you own that knowledge because you decided to say, hey, this is where I'm going to stop. I'm going to I'm gonna cut them before they cut me. But that does not always translate. People have one vision of themselves, whether it's true or not, whether someone else said it or not, and that vision actually handicaps them for other seasons. Can you talk a little bit about why you think you had the mental strength and resiliency for that truth, that reality, that fact, however much you embraced it in that season? For it not to hold you hostage or keep you handicapped or hold you chained, so that you were actually free, fully free, to move into the next?

Man, I love the questions you come with. I think it's just a realization that, um, we are all meant to do something or some things. And it was just that realization that this one occupation doesn't define me. And yes, I've done it my whole life, and many would say I've reached the top of the food chain doing it, but it just doesn't define me. This one job, this one area, this one people group, it doesn't define me. So I was just like, you know what, even though I'm not the best of the best in this field, I can go be the best in another field. And that's truly what it was, Chrystal Hurst. It was realizing, yo, okay, you're not going to be the best NFL player ever. But maybe you can go be a world changer elsewhere. So like, and I said this the other day, I didn't fail. You didn't fail, you fell. As long as you get up, you win. I think in the NFL, at first, I used to classify it as failure. Man, you were never really a consistent starter. But then I realized, nah, I didn't fail. I just kind of fell. And now I'm going to get up and I'm going to keep moving forward because the winning is in getting up. And if you fall again, you get up. And so what it was summarized is realizing I was meant to do more. I just had to find out what I was meant to do.

And that meaning, that calling, that resiliency is just natively resident in you, or did it come from somewhere?

That probably came from mom and pops' resiliency. I mean, when you're talking about parents who came from the village of Nigeria, moved to Virginia, working at Taco Bell and as a janitor, then moved to Dallas, link up with your pops, go to seminary school, get a doctorate. Mom gets her doctorate at like 50-something. Dad got his doctorate at like 30-something. Like, more is caught than is taught, obviously, as you know, and as you've heard preached to you 1,000 times over. And I think I just caught resiliency because I think that's the greatest attribute one can possess in life is resiliency.

Well, the good thing is for those who may listen and say, well, that's great for him. Uh, he was able to catch that from somewhere. Um, even though catching it doesn't necessarily mean that those who catch do, you still had to choose to do something with what you got. I think that's the whole point of your interviews. I think that's the whole point of your story. I think that's the whole point of how we've gotten to to know you through uncomfortable conversations. That's the whole point of being able to pick up your book Illogical and read that, is it can be illogical. It can be illogical that you don't— if you're listening— that you don't have the background, that you don't have the family support, that you don't have the story. You might not be on the fringe, you might not even be on the team, but it doesn't have to be logical how you get from there to here. And just like in our conversation, how Emmanuel has over and over again as a master of words said, like, here's what I had, here's what I was faced with, here's what I chose to do. Here's how the ball fell and here's how I picked it up and kept running. That's a choice that all of us get to make. And so, for the person who doesn't feel very resilient, to the person who doesn't have someone, people that they know personally, that they've been able to catch resilient from, if you had one thing to leave with those who are listening to this conversation today, what would that be?

I think it's be the change you want to see and make the change you want to be. Like, it's, it's be the change, whatever change you want to see in your life, be that. And then I would, whatever change you want to see, make that. Because it's a matter of, you're only defined by your habits, by what you do. I can say I'm resilient, but if I don't get up after I fall, then I'm not resilient, because like, you are what your actions say you are. And so I think don't let your past failures decide your future success. So that would be the one thing I would, I would leave listeners with is like, you can make the necessary change in your own life, but before you ever move your feet, it starts with the thoughts in your head., and just make a conscious decision today to be who you want to see.

That's good. That's very good. I can't help but, uh, end this conversation with this question. Preseason, number 1 NFL, who do I like? Who do you like?

Um, I'm gonna say this time around I, I think it's going to be the Rams again, and I think it's going to be the Bills.

Okay, we will write it down and see what the Lord says on this day. Listen, this is a great conversation.

Thank you, Chrystal Hurst. You're the best.