Prioritizing Peace with Morgan Harper Nichols

Y'all, Morgan Harper Nichols is one of my faves. And if you've only been following me for a short period of time, you may not know that she has been on the podcast before. This is time number 3. So now I'm actually like, oh yeah, we're friends. We're really friends. The first time, Morgan, I don't know if you remember, but I was telling you, oh my gosh, like I'm totally fangirling right now. And then you said to me, no, I'm fangirling.

Yes, I still think that is so wild. We, we had an event together and I think I was doing music and you were speaking, but we ended up not meeting and I was like, oh, I'm so bummed. But little did I know that, you know, the years would pass and we would cross paths again multiple times.

I am just honored to have you here with me today. You are, as I've said before, and I hope you don't get tired of hearing it and being affirmed by it. You are so talented and your gift not just to be an artist and to have the emotions resonate through color and shape and form, but to be able to connect that to words that resonate with the color and shape and form that you can create is just a double layer of gifting. And we all get to benefit from the thing that you do with one person in mind. I know that in the past you've shared that when you are writing pieces, that when you are designing pieces to share, that You're thinking about that one person who got into your DMs and shared something with you, and the response to that one person is what we all get to benefit from. Um, your— the overflow of your gifting to us is just unmeasured. Even when I shared with you, um, on that first podcast how, um, one of your songs, um, That's the Story I'll Tell, that that was a song that resonated deeply with my cousin Winter, who passed away at the young age of 38 in 2018. And when you told me how how you were or where you were, the circumstances surrounding the song. You just went into the kitchen, it was a Sunday morning, and then this song was born, that it was just the overflow of you operating in the spaces that you've created to create in. And so you have this new book out and it's called Peace Is a Practice, which of course, all of the visuals say and speak peace to me. You know, before I even open the page, it's just, yes, this is a Morgan Harper Nichols book for sure.

Thank you so much.

What I think you have cultivated, and I'm not saying perfectly, but what I think from the outside looking in that you have cultivated well is your own well of peace so that you actually have something to pour out for everyone else. That you were in the kitchen on the Sunday morning and the song came. That you are not on social media all the time doing all the things, but you're in your DM and you'll select one and then you close the app. And then you come to write, that you have been diligent about protecting your peace and making the protection of that peace a practice. And that's why there's room for overflow. So I just want to thank you for not just being an example, uh, and not just sharing what this means to have peace be a practice, but to show us by example the blessing that can come out of a life that's lived that practices peace. And so, um, thanks for being an example to me, honey, because I'm not— I'm not— I'm a striver to the nth degree. I look at Jamie and I'm like, okay, one day she's doing something on YouTube, and another day she's making up a song, and on the other day she's got her video thing going. And I'm like, oh, that's me, honey. Just show me all the things, all the— and she produces out of that too. I mean, it's not— but I do think The example that you give for peace is one that I've been able to learn from. I'm so curious. I'm so curious. Um, is this natural for you? Is peace and the pursuit of peace and the practice of peace natural for you? Secondhand, easy?

Mm. You know, that's such a good question. And, you know, I just have to say, and it's connected to the answer. I have to say, I'm so grateful that you just just the way you just poured into me. Like, I'm sitting here like, okay, we're gonna cry. That just— oh, you have no idea how much I needed that. Um, and it was interesting because the other day I was kind of in like, um, I was kind of just had a whole lot of stuff going on and, you know, just running around doing everything and just feeling a little bit like, okay, I feel like I could take a break, like a long break right now, but I can't. I have stuff to do. And just that whole thing. And then my sister actually texts me, Jamie, and she, she— so Chrystal Hurst edits my podcast. She was like, I was going through and you said this, so I just wanted to send it to you so you remember. And apparently I said it, but I forgot. She sent it back to me and she said, I firmly believe that I am at my best when I'm able to create and share from a place of overflow. When I am filled up to the brim with energy, then I am able to create and share without so much stress and anxiety attached to it. And I was like, oh, that's— that is what I said. I did say that. And for me, that was just such a reminder of like, it's like, yes, I have to take that time away. And when I do take that time away to just be still and rest and be filled myself, then when it comes time to share or to write or to serve, then it really does feel natural. It really does. It feels, it doesn't feel forced, but that only happens if I take time and often more time than I want to. And oftentimes I can see in those spaces where I might be feeling anxious, stressed, frustrated, or whatever, I can typically look and say, okay, what have you not been saying no to lately? You know, what have you been feeling? What have you not been asking for help with, Morgan? What have you been feeling like it's all on you to figure this thing out? Um, like there's even times with my son. I have a toddler son and there's times where, you know, like he'll, he'll just say, "Mommy," and it's something Daddy could easily do. And Daddy is actually right next to him. And instead of saying like, "Oh, ask your father," you know, I'm just like, "Let me go. I got to go get it." You know, there's so many little things like that where I just feel that pressure of like, whoop. Somebody breathed in my direction. So I guess that means I have to do it. So, so yeah, I guess the answer is a little bit of both. It's, it does feel natural at times to just be in this peaceful state where I'm like, yes, I, I really do feel at peace with what I'm doing, but it only comes when I've given that time, you know, away to, to rest and be rejuvenated.

So yeah, well, you are in a season where there probably are a lot of nos to give. You are everywhere, girl. You are every stinking where. If you weren't already on social media everywhere because people share your content, and if you didn't have books that were beautiful that were being distributed everywhere, you have your work, not just your book, not just your writing, your cards. I saw them at Magnolia. I've seen your stuff at Target and Starbucks. Anthropologie, Athletica, Aerie, Barnes Noble, TJ Maxx. You are everywhere. And I know that a lot of that happens because you'll give one yes and then there are other people who do their jobs to put things in places. But when you have your stuff, your creation, which is an overflow of who you are, on demand by people who want more and want the next season's collection and what are you creating? And then you've created a machine that is feeding off of your creativity that comes from your place of rest. But now it's a machine.

Yeah.

So I can't imagine what it looks like for you to assess the opportunities. And as wonderful as those opportunities are, to figure out which ones are a go and which ones are a no, because they all come back to you for production. Um, has that been difficult to navigate? Uh, has the success, because the success got created from your overflow, has the success been difficult, difficult to navigate in terms of how you continue to protect your space in place?

Yes. Yes. I'm going to be 100% transparent with you. It's been one of the hardest things I've ever had to do in my life so far. It is so hard. Like, I can't even find like a poetic word to put in the place of hard. It is so hard. I am— again, my poor husband, he just— he doesn't hear it all because we both work from home. I'm just like, you know what? Here's why I'm saying no to this. You know what? Here's why I'm saying yes to that. You know, never mind. I changed my mind. Hold on. What if we— that's all day. That's all day. It's either him or my sister. Like, I call her and I'm just like, Jamie, hold on, like, what do you think? And it is, it is so hard because it's exactly what you just said. I started this because I was trying to kind of get away from the chaos, get away from the pressure, get away from like the hustle and bustle because I was, you know, I was in the— I was kind of fully integrated into the entertainment industry and music and I just didn't have the energy for it. That's just the short short version of the story. It just takes a lot of energy to get yourself out there, get your music out there, network, hang out with people, go on tours, hop on stage for this show, for this set, all this stuff. It's a lot. And I think it comes more naturally to some, maybe personality types than others. It does not, that does not come naturally to me. Like if you ask me to hop on a stage and do anything, that's not natural. Like whatever comes out of my mouth from that moment forward, that would not just be, oh, Morgan, just, she's just flowing. It's like, yeah, with a whole lot of prayer and a whole lot of, you know, like, Lord, just help me get through this. So that whole world, it just didn't come natural to me. So when I started, you know, writing poetry and art and just being able to kind of like passively put it out there, that felt like, oh wow, I could just do this forever.

You could breathe.

Yes. I felt like I could breathe. But because it energized me, it was something I could do a lot of. And now that a lot of it got out there, that increased the opportunities and people to the point that, you know, I got to a point, I would say probably just literally a month before the first lockdown started, where I felt like my schedule looked exactly like what it had looked like back when I was in the music days. And so, yeah, there was a— that was a nice clean break in that way when the lockdown did start. In that one way, it was a huge positive for me because it really forced me to see that, hey, this is something that you have to address and you might have to wrestle with it for a while because it's not going to be like a clear yes or clear no. Like, okay, if an email comes from this person, it's always a yes or it's always a no. Like, I feel like on a practical note, what it's kind of turned into is really just trying not to, um, trying not to, uh, draw conclusions, honestly. Because sometimes in the past I've had situations where someone very well-meaning, like a company might reach out and want to do something. And I believe in the initiative or I say yes to it. And then I realize when I'm A minute, oh, that wasn't right for me. Sometimes it could be easy to just internalize it and just like get upset. Well, why did they ask me to do it anyway? Or, oh, what did they, what were they expecting? Da da da da da. And what I found is I'm like, you know what? A lot of times, not all the time, but a lot of times if you can communicate to people, that's just not a good fit for me. You know, I, I believe in that mission, but that's just not going to be a good fit for me right now. Um, I just can't take it on. You know, no, but thank you. You know, a lot of times people are like, oh, okay. And they go on to the next, next thing. It's not always that way. But I'm learning that, you know, it's not going to be just like a clear, easy solution. But I'm also learning that there is grace for me to navigate that. And perhaps I'm more equipped to navigate that than I at times believe I am.

Well, I love that as a response. You know, we're always in search of— or I'll speak for myself, I'm always in search of a different way I can say no.

Yeah.

And so that's a great way. Like, this is a great initiative, I think this is going to help a lot of people, I'm really excited about the idea, but right now, or in this season, it's just not a good fit for me. And you drawing a line between something that could be good fit for someone else. It's not a bad thing in and of itself. It's just not a good fit for me right now with my responsibilities, with my desires, with my current commitments. And they don't have to know I don't want to do it. But sometimes that's the answer too.

But yeah, it don't fit me right now.

Yeah, that's good.

Yeah, I remember that's— I remember years ago, I reached out to someone for something. I can't remember. This was years ago. And they said, and to this day, I remember this organization saying this to me, and this is before I was doing any of the stuff I'm doing today. And they were like, oh, we're not able to do that, but we're cheering you on. We see what you're doing. And I have helped every time I see their brand name. I'm like, they're cheering me on. Who else? It could have just been an intern saying it, you know? But that was And to me, I was like, you know what? I appreciate that. Like, yes, they're not able to be a part of this, but they see me and someone I look up to and I'm like, that's, that's awesome. So yeah, there's, there's definitely ways to do that.

I can't imagine that there are that many people that you have in your life who have been in the position that you're in where there are so many requests coming. And it's not just to do something, to show up and do something. It requires you to create, which is a different muscle than just showing up to do something at a date.

Yeah.

That navigating this— and I know you have great wisdom in your life. Your parents are awesome. And I know that your husband is stalwart and dependable for you. But have you needed mentorship to say no? Guidance and direction for what are opportunities, you know, that may have a short-term discomfort, but it's worth the— it's worth the stretch right now, like navigating those, because I think, you know, any time we're living life we have the propensity to live at extremes. You know, everything's yes. And because I got sick of saying yes to everything, then everything's a no. And saying no to everything isn't necessarily always the way either. There's the knowing of when is the yes and when is the no, or when is the time and when it's not the time. So as you've developed that muscle in your life, as you've been blessed with the circumstances of having lots of people wanting your overflow, what does it look like for you to get help?

To, to, I mean, apart from, yeah, I mean, it's important.

Like, my husband, I'd be like, can you listen? I don't need you to solve it. I don't need you to even give me a solution. I just need you to listen. I could pay somebody, I could go to therapy, but I don't even need them to tell me anything. I just need somebody who's going to listen to me. Or I tell my daughter, I just need you to listen. Just, just listen. Um, what does that look like for you to, to to process or to receive counsel in this youth ministry?

Oh my goodness. Oh, I'm so glad you asked that because it is, it is a different thing than like you said, venting or, you know, or, or like business advice. Like it's a whole other component to, to have someone in like a mentorship role. And that was something that I have always wanted but didn't have, um, for a very long time. I just didn't know how to go about it. Um, like, I remember specifically like in college, like there are professors I would look up to and then I just, I would, I just never knew like, you know, how to approach them or just say anything. But over the past 2 years, actually, I have had 2 women who are, are, I mean, at least, I mean, they're at least 30 years older than me and I, and one on a very regular basis and the other semi-regular basis who have very just clearly been able to give me guidance and, and, and encouragement and wisdom that just leaves me saying, oh, okay. That's what I needed to hear. And that has been so new to me, but so needed and And I'm like, yeah, I got to make sure I always have this now. Like, it just makes me wonder, you know, well, how differently my 20s could have been. You know, it's like you said, it's like, you know, you have family, you have— I mean, I have support system within my family, which that's a huge blessing. And, you know, not everybody even has that. I'm super grateful for that. But yeah, that's a different layer that is very new, but I'm super grateful for it. And I don't. See myself not having that. Because I feel like of all the things that's taught me is, you know, these, these two women, I'll think about them at different— even when we're not talking, I'll think about them and I'll think about how I'm like, one of the big words that's come up for me is longevity.

Yeah.

And when you're, when you're, when you're sitting under someone who's older than you, you can kind of see like, oh, it takes time to get to that. Like, like decades, like actual decades. And it's like, I'm sitting here, you know, I'm 32 years old, like feeling like I got to have it all figured out. And, you know, people are coming to me like, what's your advice on this? What's your advice on this? I'm like, I don't— I just got here. I'm like, I don't I'm like, like, I get— I'm like, if one more person asks me about parenting advice, I'm like, y'all know my child is who?

Who? But you're Morgan Harper.

Oh, you have two kids? No, I have one.

All they know is that they've sampled all of your wisdom and your soul-stirring depth about life-altering things, and they're like, surely You can tell me how to parent. Like, you just have become a source for all things.

I'm like, go talk to my mom. Like, I keep telling my mom, like, Mom, you got to get active.

Listen, they not ready for your mother.

They're not.

Listen, I was not ready for your mother. I was not. I called her one— I don't even know why I called her. Oh, I think, were we talking about— maybe we were talking about parenting and homeschooling, I think. I think I talked to Jamie one time and she said you should call her. Anyway, I called your mother and she is a no-nonsense Bottom line, I am not giving you extra words. I'm going to tell you what you need to know. I mean, listen, the people need to hear from your mother. Seriously, she might blow their mind.

Yeah, I know, but she would keep them busy for a few, a few months or a few years. I'm like, it's, it's, it's a selfish thing. I'm like, I'm trying to take some of the fresh prop feed. Yeah, I'm like, don't talk to her. But yeah, it's, it's just It's just been so good to be able to, to see someone like in the future, like in a way it almost feels like seeing myself in the future. Yeah. It's like, oh, the pressure is off. Like the pressure is off to not have to be all these things to everybody. Like, I just can't be that way. And I, and I've even noticed as a result of that, my role models, my, my inspirations, people who I'm inspired by have changed because I feel like I used to look at my peers and what they were doing. But now I'm looking at women who are authors who are in their 50s and 60s, because then I'm able to see, oh, like they have longevity. Like they've had to learn how to pace themselves and take sabbaticals and take time off and, and do all these things that, you know, you just don't have in the earlier part of life. So yeah, I've even started to kind of catch myself when I see myself doing— Even it's not even just age, but like, I'll give you an example. So there are some people on Instagram who are actually a little bit older than me, but I see their work and I'm just like, wow! It's so amazing. Look at what they're doing? Oh my gosh. Like they have more followers than me. They're doing all these things da-da-da-da-da-dah, dah. And it's just like, but Morgan, how long have they been doing that? Like, that's been going on for 5 years. Like, you have to think about it in terms of like 10 years, 20 years. It's like, this is just one iteration of what they're doing. It's like, yes, we do things that may explode and be huge, but then we also have seasons where we're like, yeah, I'm just going to go off in the corner and start something new or whatever. So, you know, I feel like you only get that when you've lived long enough., and I haven't lived long enough, so I'm just going to keep listening. Keep listening.

Well, I love the idea. I love when you said I used to look at women who were my peers because that's the first thing that we do. We're looking around to say, am I okay? Like, do I, you know, how am I doing in life? And even if it's like, yeah, not a destructive comparison, but a healthy comparison, like, you know, just how am I tracking? But then you've switched because you're thinking, I don't need to know how I'm tracking with those who are with me. I need to see how I'm tracking with those who have been where I am. And what decisions have they made? What lessons have they learned? What would they wish they had done differently? And backwards engineer that information into today. And I love how the examples that you gave were about pacing, sustainability, sabbaticals, because if we look at our peers, we're all in a race. Like everybody, you know, the whole dynamic of social media says, where are you at? How long did it take you? And what do I have to do to get my pace up to speed? Looking ahead says, what you built, you built over decades. You weren't rushing and you weren't putting up 7 and 8 pieces of social media a day.

Yeah.

So, you know, it's a healthier comparison, I think.

Oh, yeah.

You know, Are these women who have been in your life for a while, or are these women that you specifically sought out because you realized your need to have that perspective in your life?

Yeah. So one is— yeah, it's actually both pretty new, um, and came through, um, social media connections at first. Um, and me just having to bravely reach out and say, I really look up to you. I admire you. And here's, you know, here's where I'm at. And me just like, I don't even know where it's going to go from here. Like maybe it'll just go in their spam folder and, you know, whatever, you know, overthinking everything. And in both of these different ways, it was like, oh, okay, let's talk. Like, hey, let's sit down and talk about this. Like, I want to know more from where you're at. And I'm like, oh, it's— I'm like, that's the benefit of them having that. Like, they know what I'm coming— like, what I'm looking for, you know, I don't have to even— I didn't have to really spell it out. Like, okay, I'm available Wednesdays, you know, from 1 to 3, 1 to 3. And do you— are you— it's like, oh, that part gets worked out. Like, yeah, you know, just focus on the connection. And, and that those— yeah, it just ended up being people who are relatively new.

I love how you just said my, my message is gonna get stuck in their spam box. Like, this is what— I mean, this is what we all think, right? We message someone and I know it's so healing for somebody to hear you say, I was afraid I was going to get sucked in.

Well, I just, I just had another moment like that last week. It was someone who, because so we were just before this, we were talking about, you know, kind of some of my little nerdy art adventures. And I saw someone on TikTok making some really cool art. And I was just like, oh, I want to, I want to learn from this person. And I emailed and I still had that same thing. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm such a nuisance. Why am I emailing this person? And they email back. They were like, oh my gosh, this is so cool.

They're like Morgan, DM me.

I don't know, y'all. I don't know why I do that, but I do.

But here's the thing, I think, you know, I love how you use the word nuisance because that's how I feel. Like, I'll DM somebody, I want them to be on the podcast, and I'll say, hey, you may not know who I am. I mean, if it's really important, I don't, I don't ever name drop, but if it's really important, I'll be like, you may know my sister, maybe you know my dad. It's like, I really, I would really, you know, but I do feel that way. I'm feeling like I'm inviting them to be a guest on the show. I want to talk to them. I want to share with my audience. And they probably, you know, I'm just an irritating pea underneath the 10 mattresses because who would want to, you know, I mean, like, these are the thoughts that I have. And I think it's healing for other people who, uh, experience a disruption of their peace when they're pursuing something that's important to them, to know that even people who have a good track record with pursuing peace as you do, still have to wrestle with those same intermittent, even if minor, moments of anxiety.

Oh my goodness. Yeah, that's so true because it's every day. And this is something that I try to write about implicitly, but in poetry, but I hope it comes across very direct as well. It's like, I am very aware, as other people are as well, of just how the sheer amount of messages that we receive on a day-to-day basis, and so many of them are not positive. So many of those messages make you question if you have the right to speak up or if you have, if you have the ability to just be yourself in this world. And, you know, for me with my autism diagnosis, since last year, I've become even more aware of it, of just like, wow, there's so many, so many messages in society around like what, what, what a parent is supposed to look like, or, you know, what a 30-something is supposed to be doing with their life at X amount of age. You know, I'm in this space right now where I kind of hear, I kind of hear both sides. You know, a lot of people who are like, No, I don't, I don't want a traditional life or, you know, whatever. And the other half's like, only way is this traditional, you know, you need to have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. It's like, why? There's a lot of noise. And I think that that ends up getting, I know for me, that ends up getting to me sometimes indirectly. And then I think it comes out in those moments where I'm reaching out to someone and I'm like, Is this version of me going to be— is this person going to be okay with me? You know, because maybe this is how they perceive, because, you know, some people have a negative comment. There's a whole, a whole like joke, um, genre of like making fun of blue checks on Instagram and Twitter. Like, oh, you know, those people, the blue checks, like they don't know nothing, da da da da, like the little verification check.

They're not living the— they're not living the lives the rest of us are living.

Exactly. Yeah. I have seen memes of just like, you know, don't be getting your wisdom from those blue checks on Instagram. I'm like, I'm sorry. Like, you know, and it's like those little things, like they just get, and I'm just like, oh, is this person going to think I'm, you know, trying to like use my name or my blue check, you know, to talk to them. So yeah, that's just a lot to work through, but I think what, what matters is like, but I still press send on the email. Like, if nothing else, I still just sent a little bit of gratitude someone's way who has meant— their work has just been special to me. And I just said, thank you. And it's like, that matters. Like, it honestly doesn't matter. Like, what other people think about that, like, that matters. And I can take a deep breath on that.

So you mentioned, you just said in passing, you know, like, will they think I'm okay? And a few moments before that, you mentioned, um, your ADD diagnosis. And I know vulnerability is important to you. It's something that you talk a lot about. Um, prior to the release of your new book, you talked about the level of vulnerability, um, as you were approaching the writing of this book. But this also coincided with the discovery of the ADD diagnosis. And I remember when you first shared the post, like, I just discovered I'm ADD. And there was a little bit of, this is me, um, you know, kind of, I don't even know what this means. I'm just kind of coming to terms with, um, this label that means so many different things to so many different people. And what does it mean for me to own that and be vulnerable about that being a part of who I am? I'm curious, since you first had the lights turned on for you, okay. This is a label that applies to me. And today, what have you learned about yourself in light of that label?

Yes. Yeah. So I started learning about, you know, neurodivergence, um, I would say during, uh, 2020. And, um, at least that, that term was the first one that kind of, uh, you know, stood out to me and I was just like, what is this about? And I, I think it was honestly TikTok. It, I think that part too is even just on TikTok. I was just on TikTok, like just—

Girl, you gonna make me get on TikTok.

Oh gosh. Okay. There's— so here's the thing though. TikTok is, is it's a lot. You have to— it's the only way that TikTok works is like you have to treat it kind of like YouTube. Like you gotta go follow, like subscribe a certain, you know, what the topics you're interested in. Cause it's just— or maybe I'm just old. I don't know. Don't take my advice. Like just—

Okay. Do you have a limit? Do you have a limit of time that you try to like, what is, how do you get off? Because that's what I hear about TikTok is you just get in it and you can't get off.

Yeah, it's, it, yeah, it's quite a bit. It's quite a bit. I will say I haven't been on it that much lately, actually. I think it was just, you know, especially in 2020, it was just like something to do. Like, it was like, oh, you know, just scrolling through, like, show me more. Like, I just need to look at something. Um, so yeah, actually, I'm not even really on it that much anymore, to be honest, but I do follow like lots of therapists and like just mental health, uh, related things. That's probably— and art, like those are kind of my two main categories and a little sprinkle of comedy. That's kind of where I stay. Um, but I was just learning a lot about neurodivergence and then, um, I started hearing stories about women who were diagnosed with autism as adults and I was like, wow, that just really connects with me. And also ADHD.

I'm sorry. Yeah, I said ADD.

I forgot about the autism part.

Well, yeah.

It's kind of confusing because you have— it's all on the spectrum. Yes. Yes. And then, you know, ASD is what is often used to refer to autism spectrum disorder. But I actually, I actually got both. I got all the diagnoses. So, so that's how I'm like, it still applies. But yeah, when I, when I first learned it, I think for me it wasn't— it felt empowering. Like it didn't feel like a negative label, but I honestly can say that I I think that that came from maturity. So it's— I guess I'm still learning and growing a lot of areas in my life, but that is an area where I have really matured. Because had I come across that same information 10 years ago, my response would have been, oh great, something else that makes me different, something else that puts me in this other category. Because especially 10 years ago, I was in a lot of spaces where I was one of the only or one of the few, few Black people. I was often— and that's a whole thing in terms of feeling very othered at times and just constantly feeling different. I was in, I was in a music space and genre where there were not a lot of women either. So to be a Black woman in that space, there's just a constant feeling of like you're, you know, tokenized or just made to feel a lot of times that, um, and a lot of times it's not even things that are always directly said. It's just, it's just like you're just, you look around the room and you're just like, I'm the only one here. I'm always just one of the few. And when you're in your early 20s and you're just trying to make it and, and do what you feel like you've been called to do, it's like for me, I don't know how I would have dealt with— here's yet another thing that makes you stand out. I think I would have just kind of kept it to myself. And if even if I did go to a therapist, I probably wouldn't have shared it online. I wouldn't have talked about it because I'm like, great, here's another thing, another thing. So I think the difference with finding out that information now is that I I feel like I've walked through enough situations to realize that amidst all of that feeling of being othered or being different or too different, somehow the light still gets through. Somehow art still comes forth. Something beautiful happens. So So I have that to go on now. And I feel like that's how I went into that whole experience of like, I don't know how other people are going to respond to this. Like, I don't know if I'm going to get, you know, hit with like a wave of people who are trying to pray it out of me or a whole bunch of people who are trying to like be like, oh, that's no big thing, you know, or, or you're just doing that because you have a blue check on Instagram. Who knows? I'm like, I don't know what might happen. Happen. But at the same time, like, I can see in, in not only my life but in other people's lives of, of just, oh wow, like, that doesn't stop you from becoming who you're meant to be. It's like, it's like, yes, there are going to be some people who just don't understand. There's even going to be people who are just committed to misunderstanding you or committed to misunderstanding a diagnosis or what that might mean. And, or who want to— like, I had, I had Um, when I, when I did share on Instagram, I had somebody that we've known for years, like longer than we have, like, I think since we've been married around that time, we've known this for like over a decade. They've known me, been around them a lot. And when I shared, they actually DM'd my husband and they were like, I'm so sorry about Morgan.

Like, I'm so sorry. Tell me who they are so I can fight your battle. Oh my gosh. Are you serious right now?

So yeah, it was— now that was one. There were some others. My parents had people calling them saying like, she doesn't need to be talking about that. Like, that's going to ruin her life. And I was just like, what? So yeah, there was some of that. But there were also— there were also— remember when I said, like, if I got that information 10 years ago, I would have been 21. There were also 21-year-old, 22-year-old, 23-year-old young Black women sending me emails saying thank you and just saying thank you for sharing that, because now I feel empowered to seek help. And that to me makes it worth it. You know, just whatever anyone else says, I'm like, oh, doesn't matter anymore. I'm like, because that's what 21-year-old, 22-year-old Morgan would have needed. And to just— yeah, that's— so that's kind of been my story with it. And it's something that I just try to remember, you know, because there are times where I do feel like Oh, you know, am I too different? Am I too much? Am I too this? Am I too that? So it's like, I just try to remember, and there are other people who feel that way too. And when those opportunities come for you to speak to that, those people will be seen. Other.

You said I'd feel othered again, you know, and the thing is, you know, when you think about all the papers that we filled out in our lifetime for applying for this or traveling to this place, there's always a box for other. And I think, you know, part of embracing whatever other means is also embracing the fact that other is a valid box to check. Like, it's not something that's not an option. It actually is an option. And it means that, I mean, you know, this is just, somebody else needs to hear this. I know you probably don't, but that other is something that it's just indicating there's something that's so unique about who you are. It hasn't been captured in volume enough to create an identifiable box, but you can be identified by your other. The key is, and what you were saying in your 20s, you would've done something different with the other realization and diagnosis or whatever, is that you have to hold onto the beauty of other when you haven't even defined it. And just accept that as you move through your life and discover who you are and discover more about the gift of you in this world, that is you are able to put words to your other, describe your other, share your other, that your level of comfort with describing your other will grow. And then that's all that really matters. But you have to get through that season of life where other feels like I don't fit and accept the fact that other means I just fit. I can't exactly tell you how to identify me because I'm so special. And we know that there was no box for Morgan. There was no box for the artist whose words and whose art is going to change a generation. You don't put that into another box. And we wouldn't want it to have put that in another box. But we just now, a decade later, 15 years later, outside of your 20s, now we can say, "Oh, this is the girl who reads people's letters and then writes response letters that impact the thousands of people who felt just like that person." And then has the unique and canny ability to not just do that with words, words, but to sway our eyes and our emotions with her pen and her colors and her art, digital or manual as well. That is not a box, and we would never have wanted it to be. And I think every other person who feels othered needs to know that not being in a box is still a valid box to check and to not apologize for that. I would love to know, with your diagnoses over the last year, what do you think, with your growing knowledge, and development of your knowledge about this spectrum situation. Um, what is something that you think would be helpful for someone who may be ill-informed to know?

Mm, that's such a good question. That's such a good question. Um, you know, I would say that there are a lot of stigmas out there. As to what particularly autism is supposed to look like. And I think it's important to consider that even when you're Googling and you're looking around, a lot of the information that you're reading, it's changing, it's slowly changing. But historically, especially, you know, over the past 10, 20 years or so, a lot of the information out there was written on studies that were done by young white boys. So especially if you're talking to someone who doesn't meet that demographic, just consider that autism might look completely different than what you might think. So one of the most hurtful things that someone could say is that you don't look like someone on the spectrum or you don't look autistic. Or you don't act autistic, but I just saw you do X, Y, and Z. You're on stage, you're doing this, you're doing that. How could you? What do you mean you don't have, you know, the energy or the capacity to, to go hang out with us or do whatever it is? It's like, you may never know, that person may not even have the language to explain that to you. But I think one of the, the greatest gifts that we can, that we can give, it's just that Honestly, that respect for diversity, even that, even diversity, that, that neurodiversity that we may not even be able to understand and to recognize this is probably something that is going to be— get talked about more and more and more as the years go on. I've already started to see negative comments of people saying like, oh, everyone's just getting diagnosed now. It's like, yeah, because we have entire demographics of people who have been looked over by all kinds of healthcare systems for years. So yes, you probably are going to hear way more people saying, hey, guess what I found out? Hey, guess what I found out? Hey, hey. It's like, yeah, there's probably going to be more of that because there's a whole bunch of us who have walked into doctors for different things that aren't even related to neurodivergency and have been told there's nothing wrong with you. You're fine. Just do this, just do that, and essentially get out of my office.

This.

So there's more and more people who are getting the help they need. And yeah, some of them are probably going to be excited to talk about it and excited to kind of reclaim that space and say, hey, I'm here, this is who I am, and let's go from there. So yeah, that's— I think that's what I would share.

How was, um, talking about— well, not talking about, but writing this time? I know that for every author, every book is its own journey. Sometimes you go into it with a theme, a point, a direction. You may have even thought a little bit about the stories that you want to tell. And then books have a funny way of writing themselves. They start telling you, uh, nuances in small ways or in grandiose ways what the messaging is actually supposed to be. I'm curious for this book, for you, as you talk about peace peace, even in the midst of so many things that we've all experienced collectively and in your own world, um, as a mom, a wife, a girl, a millennial, um, an artist, a creative, um, a business owner. Um, what was this experience like for you this go-round? Was it easier? Was it harder? Did you have to have major divergence from your plan of topic direction and chapters, or it flow? I'd love to know how that works.

Oh my goodness, if it was a peaceful experience. Oh yes, yes. Oh my goodness. Oh, the irony of writing a book about peace— hardest book I ever wrote. Oh my goodness. I think it was, it was the word count, honestly, because prior to this I have written what are called gift books. And the gift books are, you know, there, there's color, there's poetry, there's, there's a lot more, you know, going on that in a way I can kind of like, I'm like, okay, I've written my poems. I wrote a few short prose pieces and all right, here's this book. But this book was just a lot of like chapter 1, chapter 2, chapter 3. That's the first time I've done that. So much respect to someone such as yourself, because I'm just getting started over here. And it was I think the hardest part, the hardest part of it all was not the actual writing. And even the outlining was fun. I actually enjoyed that part of it. Like I liked like saying, oh, I could talk about this and go into that and talk about the history and move through that. The hardest part was owning my own voice and allowing myself to believe that my story was worth being told. I read a lot of books. Like, I love to read. And anyone who reads knows this. It's like you encounter like the depths of people, like the stuff that they may not have even told these stories to their family yet. And they're like in the book, you know, and you're encountering like some real serious stuff. And it's very hard to feel that my life a lot of times is the real serious stuff and that it is worth putting on paper, you know, of like, is this interesting enough? Is this dramatic enough? And is this enough? You know, it kind of keeps coming back to that. So honestly, I would say that what, what helped me actually get through it is, which is what the book is about, is just recognizing that, you know what, there are going to be some valleys in this life. There are going to be some mountains, and there's also— and you're going to travel through those mountains and valleys, but you're also going to travel through some flat terrain. And you might have to stand there a little bit longer to see the beauty and the depth in that flat terrain. So, you know, I would say like something like, you know, I would see a lot of my childhood for me would be that flat terrain. It feels kind of like I had a good childhood. You know, I'm just like, you know, we didn't go to Disney every year, you know, the mountains. But, you know, I also, you know, I was supported at home. I felt safe at home, and that was huge. So I had to kind of sit there longer to, to see, oh, maybe what I see is like neutral ground. It's— there actually is some depth here. There are some layers. But I just had to kind of be here a little bit longer. So that was one of the biggest lessons that I think I learned. And I would love to share with other people who may feel that their story is not enough, you know, either high or low. It's like, you just might have to spend a little bit time there. So I literally had to start with, and you'll see, it's a lot in the book. I had to start with the images. I had to start with, okay, let's not just not just get intellectual about what peace means, but what were the childhood images that I associated with peace? And for me, it was a river because I learned the song "It Is Well with My Soul" as a young kid, when peace like a river. And that's right at the beginning of the book. So that to me, and listen and let this book kind of breathe to life.

Yeah, right on the back cover, it says, breathe in the beauty of the present moment, Release everything outside of your control and exhale peace. And right after that it says, if you feel overwhelmed by life, you're not alone. A lot of us, I think— I'll speak for myself, I know that some will agree— we thought we had peace. What we had was a predictable rhythm. So it wasn't so much that we were operating with inner peace before the pandemic, we just knew what to expect. And what the pandemic exposed for many us is that without rhythms being created for us, without expectations being put on us, that in us, we actually had no peace at all. And when we were left to ourselves with— or our families, whoever we lived with, with nothing outside to distract, because the rhythms can actually distract— what we realized is we were totally and utterly not at peace. And then we were on top of that overwhelmed by all of the external things that were now very unpredictable. So I think what this pandemic has done, I know it's done it for me and it's done it for a lot of the people that I know, is it exposed, it ripped the bandaid off of something that actually needed light and needed healing. And we have this choice now to deal with it. If someone is not at peace or cannot find a way to settle back into what they thought they had before in terms of peace. Experiencing the lack of equilibrium is actually a gift because it calls you to a true source, um, a piece of practice, a practice of peace. So I would love to know, like, for you, as you wrote this book and you're looking at your life and saying, okay, I want to live vulnerable, I want to, um, acknowledge that we all are having to experience some level of vulnerability if we're going to be honest and get what we need? What did you realize that you needed in order to have peace that maybe you did not have, had not practiced, or maybe had stopped practicing that you needed to put back into place? What did the book teach you as you wrote it?

Yes, yes, it taught me to slow all the way down. And whatever I think slowing down Slow down more. If I think it's slow down more, double it, triple it. It is astonishing to me, even still after writing the book, how fast, how quickly I could become uncomfortable with slowing down and stillness. Just this morning, I was complaining about something. That was gonna take about 5 months to come to life. 5 months. It feels like forever. I'm like, I don't have 5 months. I need 5 days. I'll settle for 5 weeks. I don't have 5 months. And I think about that and I'm like, that's something I said out loud, but how many things internally am I just so wrestling with? About because I can't slow down. I am so focused on, on moving quickly, moving faster. And one of the things that I try to encourage other people who may also relate to that is that it's not your fault. Like we live in a world that moves so fast, always rushing, and it's not just moving fast because of Instagram. Like, it's like we have been on a trajectory of efficiency and productivity for centuries. It's like, this isn't something that just popped up because Mark Zuckerberg invented Facebook. Like, that's one thing I'm just like, I'm sorry, I'm a millennial, but I'm going to say that. I'm like, we millennials didn't invent that. Like, we didn't invent moving quickly and everyone following each other. It's like, no, we— the reason why these platforms worked is because we were heading that direction in a long time. And it's like, if you look at that, if you look at the way, you know, even countries are built, it's like, let's just see how much, how much cheap labor can we get to like build a whole bunch of buildings. It's like, this stuff is baked into society and we have to one, recognize that, but two, be open about speaking about it and saying, hey, you know what? Things are really hard right now. There's a lot on a lot of people's shoulders right now. So let's all work together to release some pressure. And I think that what that looks like in a practical daily life, it's very relational. You know, it's like, who, who in your life can, can you talk to on a regular basis to work through? Like, what can we do to alleviate some of that pressure? You know, maybe it's someone you're like, oh, we get together. You know, every Thursday, oh, I don't feel like doing it. Maybe it's talking to them. Maybe we do every other Thursday now, you know, or one Thursday a month. And, and I think that that is one of the gifts, honestly, of autism is that it teaches me to, um, I have to learn a lot of social norms. I'm like, oh, if, if someone wants to get, go out for coffee, it's kind of like a little audition for regular coffees. Like I had to learn that because I I remember like going to coffee with people here. I was like, oh, that was great. I'm like, when are we doing this again? I'm like, oh, I didn't even, I didn't even factor that part in. Like, I was just like, I thought this was the moment in time, but I'm like, oh, friendship. Yep. That's the thing. You get together on a, on like a, I'm like, I had to learn all that stuff. So for me, I'm just very aware of that. I'm like, there's a whole lot of stuff we're doing out here, y'all. And it's, it's wearing us down and it's And it's, and it's making us feel more and more overwhelmed and it's disturbing us of peace. Mm-hmm. So it gets really practical. Hence, Pieces of Practice, which I write about. I love it. It's really practical. What can we practice taking off? What loads can we practice taking off? We might not be able to do it as a clean sweep in one day and just everything is just great and we have no more stressful responsibilities. What can we practice? You know? It's like, maybe I can take this one day off and let's see if it leads to two days and three days. Mm-hmm.

Um, and that recently, I was recently with a group of women who, um, they, it was a trip, a leadership retreat. And, um, one of the ladies, this was her third time to come. Um, it was all the way in Hawaii. So this is women who are mothers, wives, sisters, uh, who have businesses. Who have community involvement who leave to go sit by themselves or sit in a small group on a beach to talk about whatever they need to talk about. So I asked this woman, it was her third time, I said, what, you've come three times, so what, I mean, like, it's like, what is it? And this is me having not done it before. She said, when I finally gave myself the gift of grace and peace to create space where no one needed anything from me. And I thought it was so indulgent to give that care to myself. The thing is, when I got back home, that peace had a product. It allowed me clarity of mind. It gave me the gift of pacing. All of a sudden I could make decisions. And she said, the reason why I came back back a second time is because my husband said, whatever that was that you did, go do it again. So this idea of practice—

wow, I love that— yeah, it's a gift.

It's not just a gift to ourselves, it's a gift to actually the work that we're called to do and the people that we're called to serve and love. And you talk about so many of the angles of the practice of peace— rhythm, wholeness, community, conversation, journaling, grief, healing, letting it out, letting it go, planning, trusting— that there, there are all of these practical tentacles to what it looks like to walk with peace. And so if you don't know who Morgan Harper Nichols is, you probably live in a place where there's no internet. But assuming that you know who she is, if you have just enjoyed her art and have never picked up her product, her book. Or if you don't have her app— I love her app, I pay for it annually, and I love all of the gifts of, um, her grace that come in that app. If you have never invested in Morgan's work, please go pick up this book. It's called Peace Is a Practice: An Invitation to Breathe Deep and Find a New Rhythm of Life. Pick up the book, download her app, and let the journey that she is on and the lessons that she is learning speak to you. Morgan, if they could follow you anywhere— TikTok, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram— you're everywhere. Even your website is Morgan Harper Nichols. But if you were like, if you're going to only follow me in one place, where do you want them to go? Where should they go?

Oh, I would say Pinterest, actually, because that's where this all started.

You were pinning stuff and then—

yeah. Yeah, because on the topic of slow— and this is not like, you know, yes, I want all the platforms.

No, do it, do it.

On the topic of slowness, you know, I've been thinking about that a lot because, you know, I'm like, some of these— not all these platforms are the same. And for whatever reason, Pinterest just— it feels just a bit more— yeah, slower pace. I'm not saying, you know, it's the slowest pace. But it's a bit more slow as pace, slower pace. And with what I share, you know, I really hope that people can encounter it in a way that, that gives them that permission to just slow down a little bit. So yeah, if I had to pick one, that's the one that I would say.

Okay.

I love it.

Listen, girl, and I love you, not just because, um, you do good work in the world, but I think again, all of this, all of it is flowing— from you being willing to be vulnerable enough to respond to the questions that you get from your heart, and then to be vulnerable enough— because to share your art is to be vulnerable— to do that combining the lessons that you want to share, the encouragement that you want to give, with art that is coming. It's just an overflow of who you are, and putting all of that out there for for us to resonate with, to enjoy, but to also be encouraged by. And so I, I really appreciate your example. I, um, uh, love you for sharing who you are and letting us benefit from that at the risk of your own vulnerability. I mean, vulnerability sometimes costs, and I just want to appreciate the cost that you pay to share the beauty of your vulnerability with us.

Thank you so much. It really is an honor to share, and that, that means a lot to hear. So thank you.