S 2 Episode 5: Jo Saxton - The Dream of You

So we're here, and if you're hearing us talk, if you're not familiar with Joe Saxon, the first question everybody's wondering is, is why do you talk like that? Let's start with that.

Yeah, I was born in London in England, um, born to Nigerian parents, and I grew up there. So where I grew up, everybody sounds like this.

So we're the ones with the accent?

Yes, very much so.

But you're not in London now?

No, I've lived in the States for 15 years.

For 15 years. Yeah. Okay, now how long have you been married?

About 16. I never remember, he always waits for me. He loves me being lost.

Did y'all meet over there or over here?

Over there, yeah. We met at the same church.

Then why'd y'all come over here?

Well, we partly wanted an adventure. Secondly, our church was doing a kind of staff swap with another church. So we were like, okay, new marriage, new life, try something new. And we moved to Arizona. That was new.

Why Arizona?

I'm not sure. I think there was a church there. There was a church there that really wanted to work with, um, our team did a lot with young adults, so they wanted us to be part of what they were doing.

And I just want you to know, after this conversation and while we're talking right now, I'm going to have to work really, really hard during our conversation and post our conversation not to be emulating. See, I just did it. Not to be emulating. Not to be. I do that. I'll start morphing into what other people are doing. So, okay, so you moved here. Now I hear that your husband is younger than you.

He is.

How much younger than you?

5 years.

I know!

He is.

Are you in your 30s or 40s?

I'm in my 40s. He has just joined my decade. Just.

Is that a thing? Was it ever a thing?

It was when we got together because I remember on our first date where he— where I asked how old he was and I was drink-sipping some lemonade or something and he told me, and I choked on the drink because I thought— I knew he was a bit younger. I thought he was— I was 28.

You didn't do so good with covering up the resemblance.

No, no, I was 28, so I thought, oh, maybe he's 26, 27. When he said 23, girl, you were cougar rovin' the cradle. I am cougar, big time, big time. In our church, we call it the year of the older woman because a lot of us who are in our late 20s reach down and scoop some of those good ones up. Reach down and scoop the joy.

That actually works out. It was great. There's a lot of ways that can work out for you.

It worked out well.

So because of age, because of race or culture, a lot of women struggle with picking something different than what they expected.

Yes.

Whether or not that's what you expected, I mean, but they struggle with it and they go, okay, should I let— it's bothering me. Do I need to accept that it bothers me?

Yeah.

Or do I need to work on not letting it bother me?

Yeah.

So did you— did it just gradually stop bothering you, or did you say, you know what, It's clear that God has provided him. He's meeting the things that I know I want in a husband. So you're gonna have to get over that.

Like, yeah, a lot of, a lot of, of our relationship caught me by surprise.

Okay.

And I, at that point, I was 28. I was serving in my church and I, I felt I would get married at some point, but I kind of surrendered. I kind of said, okay, all my friends have got married. All of them. I'll just say it one more time. All of them, and they were having babies.

It's not an exaggeration? No. Okay, all of them.

All of them. Okay. And I had been at everybody's wedding, sung Shout to the Lord at everybody's wedding. Choose another song. Everybody's wedding. And I had kind of resolved, I thought, okay, it's in your hands, because it was preoccupying my mind. I was beginning to get disillusioned with God and all this stuff, and it was getting— it was an idol. Let's just call it what it was. It was an idol.

Okay.

And so I got to a point where I thought, I'm gonna get on with it. I'm gonna get on with what I feel he's called me to do, and if it happens, it happens.

She was going to get on with it.

She was going to get on with it.

Something like that. I'm gonna work on it.

I did like somebody, but it wasn't him. It was somebody else. And we were on a mission trip. We were on a mission trip in Germany, and actually a good friend of mine had asked me to put in a good word for her with my now husband, Chris. Oh. Which I did very faithfully because I was interested in someone else. But he— It caught me off guard how at ease I felt with him. I didn't have to apologize for who I was. I didn't have to explain anything. And we just talked, and I was not remotely interested. For the first time, I was not kind of chasing someone, trying to be like, prove myself good enough.

Were you chasing before?

Oh, I was. I run.

You run hard?

I run hard.

After?

Long distance.

Okay.

So Yeah, I had— so over the years I'd let go of all the things. I had a list, a very long, long list, and I've had to put the list on the altar for me. And I'd let— so I thought, will I be open to dating beyond my ethnic group? I'm Nigerian, and I remember talking with my family about it and saying, okay, how will people feel? And how am I— and, you know.

And when you say beyond your ethnic group, you don't mean color-wise, but culturally?

Yeah, I mean culturally even, because my my family, I mean, we love being Nigerians, we love it. And so I needed to, and family, my family matter, they kind of matter. And so that was one of the conversations, and they were very— I was surprised, my mum was like, it's never been a problem. I thought, okay, okay.

And your dad said that too?

My dad wasn't part of our lives at that point. Okay. And that, but my brothers, the elders, yes, they were fine. And my mum was like, if anybody has a problem they can come to me.

Oh.

Which staggered me. Okay. And so, and then I thought I needed to be open to— I had ideas of ministry things we'd do together, all this kind of— I had all this, I'd crafted.

Expectations.

I'd crafted.

You crafted a whole life.

I had, I crafted a whole life. I had a very— I had a plan. And so, my 20s were a series of just letting go of expectations, expectations, expectations. And I remember my My mentor, who was a pastor's wife, she sat me down just about a few months before I met Chris and she said, "Promise me this. The next person who asks you out on a date, I don't care who they are, just go.

Please just go." What did she see going on with you that made her say that?

I think because I'd almost swung from one extreme to the other. I'd been kind of obsessed with it and then it's like, I don't care, it doesn't really matter, I'm not gonna do this anymore anyway. And so I I'd almost become too independent that no one would even know I was remotely interested in anything.

You're just a hard runner. So you're either running hard in that direction, or you're running hard in that direction.

Very much so, very much so. And what happened was, we got back from this trip and he asked me out on a date. And I was horrified. I was absolutely horrified. And I remembered I'd given my word.

That I had to go out on a date.

Yeah, I said to her, you know, this is my mentor, I respect my elders. I am still essentially Nigerian, um, I've got to do what she said. I didn't even know if I liked him. I knew I liked him to talk to and I enjoyed his company, and I'd forgotten that those were valuable things to include in a relationship. Let me tell you, she could have gotten over there real quick.

I would have just been like, are you paying for the meal? It's a free meal. I, I will, I will work on the other stuff. We're just going to enjoy the free meal and call it a day.

I know. And so I, I just felt I needed to be open to something different. And because by that point I was open, I thought, I thought, well, then we'll see. My basic thing was, does he love Jesus? Mhm. That was it, really. And does he have a job? Let's be, let's be real.

Yeah.

Did he have a job?

And yeah, did he have a job?

That was important because it said something about where his life was at.

Yes.

And, um, he was an engineer, um, which obviously with Nigerians— doctors, lawyers, engineers. So that was, that was good. And he was He was serving at the church doing an internship because he was waiting a call. So he was working part-time as an engineer, working at church the rest of time.

Okay.

I know, I know. He'd lived overseas, which mattered to me because I knew I would— when— because if it was someone who wasn't my skin colour, I wanted to know how they were in other cultures.

Okay.

I wanted to know if he'd ever been the only or the different. And if he ever had to learn another language, ever had to feel like a minority. That was really important for me.

Okay, I'm trying to follow because you're saying you wanted to know if he— meaning that he was also from London?

He was from the north of England. He was actually born in Scotland, but he took a year of his study to live in Spain. And so when he told me about that, I was just struck by someone who had traveled, who had lived in Spain to study and had encountered other parts of the world.

And why was that important to you?

I think because although in— although growing up in London, London's a very diverse city, very eclectic, lots of cultures, lots of people, lots of accents and that, by the time I met Chris we were in my college town which is Sheffield and that was not as diverse. It's more now but it wasn't then. And I just— I dated before and I was the guy's curiosity. I had— it was like— or guys who would literally say to me, "I would date you, but my parents wouldn't quite like this." And I thought, I'm not doing this again. I can't do this again. Now obviously if I was dating—

And that's color or culture?

Both, actually. Sometimes color, sometimes culture.

Because you know, outside of the US, there's just all kinds of variations of what that can look like.

Yeah. So I think when he said he'd lived overseas and thought, I thought, okay, okay, okay, this is someone who has traveled beyond his world, had to work out how to learn and respect other cultures. I also knew I was not the first woman of color he'd liked.

Okay.

And that mattered. Do you know what I mean?

That you weren't satisfying a curiosity.

Yes, yes, because that's it, because that, it doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel good.

Have you ever been first girled?

Oh yeah, it doesn't feel good. It's, um, I think because it dawned, I think with this, and we were very young, but it dawned on this guy as we got more serious what it would mean in terms of his children, in terms of his life. And I'm like, I always looked like this, you know?

So, so yeah, that's, that's very interesting. That's very interesting. Okay, so how did you end up doing what you do? You've written 3 books. Yes. The most recent one is The Dream of You.

Yeah.

And if y'all don't know about Jo Saxton or her writing, you should get at least the most recent book for sure. Okay, so how did you end up— I mean, you've been in ministry. Yeah. Okay, but how did you end up with the speaking, writing thing?

Well, the speaking had begun when I was a child.

Okay, and you've always been vocal in church?

Yes.

Leading? Okay.

And I had been involved— I became a Christian in a Methodist church. My family have— they do religion, but they do a number of different ones. So there are a number of Muslims in my family, a number of Christians now in the family, others who are— I mean, all wonderful people, all glorious, wonderful people, just different, different, they're discovering still. Working on them. So when I was in the Methodist Church, I'd be involved in the youth group and sometimes be asked to share something. I always had an opinion. Always had an opinion about something. And it grew over time. And I was terrified, to be honest. I was— I would shake, I'd be sick the night before, but I was compelled at the same time. And I felt it was God calling me to do something. And I remember saying, "You're gonna have to sort the body." 'If this is gonna happen, fix it.' Yeah, yeah. Because I was sick every week. But there was a growing passion, and I think by the time I reached my early college years, my early 20s, he had done so much. I was aware of his rescue. I was aware of his healing, his forgiveness, his grace, that I was almost like, 'Somebody needs to know this. Why didn't anybody know this?' Because again, I hadn't grown up in a Christian environment, and so I was like, 'What?' You mean Jesus check? Come on! I was very much— people need to know!

Having always been raised in a Christian home, I think one of the most interesting and refreshing things for me is the difference in how the gospel settles into the mind and heart of someone who's always been exposed to it and someone who has not. Just like everything else, good or bad, it becomes— the things we are accustomed to become common and can lose their— the fresh view of them that we have. So I always love hearing about people who are like, "What? What?" I mean, it's just— and seeing how— what that translates into in terms of, you know, being on fire. You know what I mean? It's not a better kind of fire, it's a different kind of fire.

It's funny because I'm always really thrilled when I see generations—

Yeah, I was gonna say, I'm also a high-energy person.

When I see—

There's that too.

It's true. But when I see a family, like generations have been walking with the Lord, that blows my mind every time. I never get tired of it. And I'm like, I almost, I don't quite stalk, but I do stare and I'll just watch the interaction of what's going on.

We're always intrigued with what we haven't had. Absolutely. Yeah. So for me going to Christian school, I never forget, you know, there was a period of time where, you know, testimony, testimony, everybody's testimony, da da da da. And I'd be sitting there thinking, I don't have a testimony. You know, God didn't save me from drugs. He didn't save me. I mean, I got one now, but he didn't. But you know, all of the horrible things that flipped upside down when people became Christians, I was like, so if nothing, if God hasn't saved me out of a lack of knowledge or if he hasn't saved me from something terrible, then I don't have a testimony.

Oh my gosh.

So I actually felt less than—

wow—

people who got saved and had this huge story of transformation because I didn't have that story. What I now realize is that it takes time. The realization takes time, but give it a few years. The person who's had a radical story of transformation and the person who realizes over time what God's saved them from needing transformation for. Those equate over time. They really do. So you really just have to say, you know what, um, I have to learn how to celebrate the gift of walking with God when it feels like what we're celebrating is the gift of the transformation from when I wasn't, or when someone wasn't. It's different, but they're both just as good.

I find it when I watch my kids now, and I just— and I watch them because—

how many do you have?

I have 2 girls.

2 girls. What are they, how old?

12 and 13.

So much fun.

So much fun. But the level of security they have is the thing I'm always— I mean, like, every kid has bad days, but they— the way they come back to base, the way we pray at night. And I'm not saying that they pray these great prayers, but there's something about their security.

Yeah.

That I just find fascinating. And I literally just stand there like, why are you staring at me?

Well, you also have an interesting story that created probably a dearth or a lack of security.

Oh yeah, absolutely.

Can you talk about that?

Yeah, so I, my parents split when, before, before I was born, and anyway, happened, and I ended up in foster care until I was 6. So from, we don't really know the early date, but every picture, my first pictures are with me with my foster mother, amazing woman, her name was Emily May, and we, everybody used to call her Aunt May, and she would literally gather the kids of the neighborhood. And she, she— it's funny, I realize now looking back what the rock she was for me and my brother. I have 4 siblings, well there are 4 of us I mean, and 2 of us went to Nigeria with my dad when they split and 2 stayed in England and we all ended up scattered.

Oh wow.

But me and my immediate brother, we were fostered together and I, whenever I look back on that time, it's summer in my mind. Because it almost reflects the care and the grace and the stability. And she told me as— when I grew up, she told me that she never wanted for anything. She said, "I always knew God would provide." She wasn't a believer at that point. She hadn't met Jesus yet, but she knew how to pray. And so she'd say, "God will provide." And she said boxes of food would just arrive at the door. She wouldn't tell anybody. Just this whole— this walk that she had. And so she was wonderful, but inevitably there's a crack in your planet, you know, when— I knew she wasn't my mum, and I knew that she was a temporary fix. I knew I wasn't going to be adopted by her, so there was always this, "How long do I get to stay with you?

How long do I get to feel you?" I feel settled, but I'm not settled because this is not gonna last.

This isn't gonna last.

Yeah.

And I was right, it wasn't gonna last. And so growing up, there was this constant longing for belonging and this constant security. I hadn't met my father by this point. I knew of him and he lived in Nigeria at this point. We'd send these random letters once in a while. My mum had her own journey, her own story, and so it was this kind of happy-sad era in terms of living in London in the inner city, what it was at that time anyway. It's just being part of this kind of crazy community which was wonderful, but at the same time, the more aware I became as I got older and older, the more devastating it felt.

What has been the— because a lot of us have stories of abandonment, whether that was familial or relational, just as we grew up. A lot of us want to be settled and we have an idea of what that would mean, but we can't control that. Location-based or our— so ultimately, I mean, like, you know, the answer is Jesus, but ultimately, practically, yeah, what, what did it look like for you to build a sense of security in you? So even though, you know, you went from— you're describing Aunt May, and I have an auntie like that, she's like the village baby keeper.

Yeah.

Even though there's security in her, and then there was this this transition and, you know, you, you grew up with your mom, but that's in you. There's still a thing.

Oh yeah, absolutely.

Comes along with you after the change. How practically— what has it looked like practically for that security issue to be addressed, dealt with, healed?

I mean, it— first of all, it took a long time to become aware of it.

Yes. Yeah.

And it took a long time. I would just say, "I'm just independent." And people, like friends, would sit me down and say, "You know, you drop people and walk away really easily." And I'm like, I didn't understand. I'm like, "I don't quite see what the problem is. I'm just independent. I'm just naturally independent." They're like, "But you've cut them dead." I'm like, "Well, the conversation was finished. I don't quite get it." Terrible. It was terrible. And I remember when the catalyst moment, a catalytic moment for me, was hearing a sermon where a woman was preaching and she said, "Why do you do the things that you do?" This was in the sermon? In the sermon, yeah, she just said it. And I thought, "I don't know." But I knew at that point, I was 18 years old, I'd just come back to the Lord, I'd kind of tried to take some time out, got thoroughly bored. Such a waste of time. And I thought, well, I I'm trying, I felt like I was still running. I was still running hard. And she said, "Why do you say the things that you say?" These questions, and it just confronted me. It just kept on confronting me where I thought, "Oh, I think I'm reacting to something." So I wasn't really clear, and it began a journey for me. And the provision of God, I'm just so grateful. Like my youth pastors when I was— I understand now what they were doing. —when I look back at almost like the string of pearls, and they were often people.

Yeah, I call them breadcrumbs.

Yeah, and they were just, they were these like moments of stability. And when I got to Bible College, there was a woman called Carol, who's a woman of colour like me, from London like me, and she— and we talked about where to get hair products or something, because you know. Her laugh, she would laugh, and she had this this laugh which was— I would envy. And, and her story, she told me the story of her life, and it'd been devastating, and it didn't match the laugh. It didn't match the freedom that she had, and the way she didn't take herself too seriously, and her creativity and her beauty, just everything about her. And I said, look, what, what's going on? Help me understand what's happening with me. Help me understand why I can't answer these questions. Help me understand how you should be like some of the people I grew up with, and how you are actually loving your life, loving your freedom, laughing like there's no tomorrow. What is going on? And she said it was Jesus. And she goes, this is what he does. This is— and, and I think it was just her constancy, her constancy over the next few years. I mean, she still prays for me now, and her friendship, her, her laughter, they were just again breadcrumbs showing me.

So this is before you knew Jesus or after? This was after I knew Jesus.

Okay. But it was—

see, that's a very distinctive thing. Yeah. Because there are a bunch of people walking around knowing that the joy of the Lord should be their strength, Nehemiah 18, but not connecting with it.

Because I had— I'd become Christian as a 9-year-old, and so there were— I knew that Jesus was my friend and he saved me. I knew that he was kind. But you have—

there's this awareness that there's more, there's, there's, there's an abundant life that's available that I'm not tapping into.

Absolutely. And when I hit adulthood, I thought, "Oh, I know what my abundant life is." And then I thought, "Oh, no, it isn't." And then she showed me that this is what redemption looks like. What did that mean? It meant that I didn't have to prove myself anymore.

What did that mean? She just talked to you about it though?

She told some of her own story and saying, "This is the damage it left me with." Okay.

Did that cause light bulbs to go off in your head? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

You were like, "Oh, that damaged me." Yeah, and so when she said that, I'm like, I get that damage. And she would say, this is the impact of that damage. So she'd say, because of this, I would withdraw from friendships.

She was not a psychologist. No. She was a person who understood, who had— this is giving me chill bumps. She's a person who had done the work of understanding her story.

Yes.

And that was helping you do the work of understanding yours and how that impacted your life. Yes. Okay, sorry, sidebar. No, no, great. Everybody, y'all, you don't have to be a writer and a speaker and a published author or a leader to have your story impact someone else's story.

Oh my gosh.

But you do have to do the work of understanding your story, owning your story, because knowing how that impacted you not only frees you up to live your life, but then when someone else comes along, who doesn't know how to unlock their story, then you can show them how you did it. Absolutely. This idea of everybody has to be a professional to understand the thing. No. It's just like, we just have to be open to looking at our story, seeing what's there to give us a greater understanding, changing what we can change, and then being willing to help someone else.

Absolutely. And most of the conversations that we had— that sermon was a catalyst, but it didn't do the full work. Right.

We were going for walks. It inspired you, but it didn't change you long-term. Totally.

It confronted me, and, but then you can be confronted week after week and not change. That's right. And so what happened was, she would talk with me.

She walked with you.

She walked with me. Literally. Literally. And I would weep, and I'd say, I'm really angry at this, and she says, I know.

I'm not going to fix it. Yeah. I'm not going to override it or overlook it. I'm just going to sit with you.

Yeah. She sat with me in it and she kept on sitting. She did not get tired of sitting. And she would challenge things and she said, okay, right, we've been talking about this a while, let's pray about this. Yeah. And things. But, you know, she gave me also— it was a twofold thing. She was like, yes, this is true, but you know, God's got some good stuff for you too. And so she kept on giving me a vision for the future. She knew I needed something to look towards that would make me Keep on going.

This is what it is. It was what it was. Yeah. But let's look on what is to come. Absolutely.

And so that— and when I look back now, I look at every chapter of my life, there has been some people who were like that. There were people who did that work of walking through.

You may not have known that they were doing it. No. It just— you look back and you see. I look back and realize. That I was building something.

Yes, absolutely. And whatever I needed with each chapter, because again, I remember a mentor describing once sometimes the work of God being like the layers of an onion. It's not like you didn't confront your wounds. It was one thing confronting being fostered when I was a teenager. It was another thing when I was holding a baby girl in my arms.

Ooh, because when you were holding your baby girl in your arms, what happened?

Because one, we were told we were having a boy. So I wasn't thinking about it. Definitely a boy, they said.

Call him Ruben. Oh, so that was the first issue.

So, and so then I— so I'd never— I didn't—

I love you, but I wasn't expecting you.

I wasn't, and I didn't I didn't have to think about the— how it would make me feel. Yeah. And I actually think it was a law of protection, actually, that I didn't— I just didn't— I got to enjoy the pregnancy and everything like that, and I didn't have to think about that moment until he had cushioned me for the people who had helped me walk through it. And so then I hold my baby in my arms, this girl, and I'm having these flashbacks in my mind of thinking, I grew up and I wasn't with my mother. I wasn't with my mother. My mother didn't hold me like this. My mother didn't see my first steps. My mother didn't get my first words. Wow. And there was confusion, there was grief, there was anger, there was everything, and there was things I didn't know. So again, I needed someone to sit with me there, in that moment. And in every chapter, they peel off the layers of an onion and say, okay, I'm going to sit to sit with you and remind you of God's story weaving its way through your story. By the time I was a mother, we could look back and say, the God who's brought you this far, remember the God who did that when you were 18, when you were 20, who provided this guy for you, who provided your friendship group, who provided, who met you in many ways. I had my kind of stone, my Ebenezer, that's what they call him in the Bible, the stone of help, I had them. But yeah, I've always needed people to sit And I think for someone who was feeling insecure about belonging and about— Why were you feeling insecure about belonging? I think because, again, I think the combination of being fostered, I think the combination of being a Nigerian immigrant. Like, in the '80s in England, it wasn't cool to be Nigerian at all. I mean, it's awesome now, but then we were kind of— it was almost the lowest of the rankings. So even there was almost like a special disdain for Nigerians. And so there was this sense of I'm not enough, I'm not good enough, I'm ebony, and so I was too dark, I was too black, I was Nigerian at that, I was poor, and I was disposable. And those were the things that were in my mind and I felt. And so to have this sense of where do I fit, and do I get to stay here, or do I only get to stay if you choose, or will you 'Will you one day send me away?' or 'Push me away?' I think that had often been the cry. And so I think it was wonderful, particularly, and I'm so grateful to the Lord, to have people who would sit. Because I'd expect them to go and they were still there.

But what do you say to the girl or the woman or whatever who's watching and says, 'Well, good for you. I'm glad God favored you like that and gave you person after person after person in different seasons of your life, who helped you through that season or to the next season, who were willing to sit with you, go the long haul. You know, he hadn't done that for me. What hope does a person have who's listening to you and knows that that's what they need? There's some stuff that's jacking me up, but I don't even know what it is. There's nobody in my life that's really helping me figure that out.

I would say a couple of things. I would Ooh, because I, you know, I think one, I didn't know at the time they were there, so that was, you know, I didn't know.

So there may be people in their lives right now who later they will see.

Yeah, I would ask them to ask, to look at your friendship group with fresh eyes and to see if there's anybody who's been faithful or who has, maybe they were there for 6 months, maybe they were there for a year. I would ask them to consider that. I would actually encourage them, you know, there were times in my life when the person was a counsellor, or— and it's a different kind of relationship for sure, it's not kind of— it's a stepping stone. It's a stepping stone. But they— those were valid, and I would say your healing is important enough for you to engage with that process, and you're important enough to God. It was important for me to find a couple of verses to hold on to. I often talk about the Bible, that we read the Bible but it reads our lives. Blah! Do I mean it just like— say! Like TSA. Scanned you thoroughly.

And shows you what you cannot do with your own hands. That's a good— I'm gonna use it.

I'm sure I got it from someone. And Psalm 139, "O Lord, you search me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I stand." I would encourage that person to take hold of that. Because in the times when I felt my loneliest, I was still known by somebody.

You were still known. Still known. And he knows what you don't know.

Yes, and he sees what I don't see. And there were moments when it was— when I was at the end of the end of the end of myself, and I didn't know that hope was around the corner. And as I go through life, I still feel that about certain things where I'm like, really?

Look, it's true. It's true. Really? So look around for who might be there that you're not really counting. Yeah. And then if there's no one there, then in your opinion at least, then find someone, even if that's a counselor, to help you do some work. Yeah. And then realize that even what you don't know or what someone else can't show you, that God's Word can do the work. I mean, the Bible says that the Word is a sword, you know, sharper than a two-edged sword, piercing through to the bone. Absolutely. Where you can't go, His Word can go. And yeah, yeah, and I wouldn't underestimate the power of that.

Yeah. And I think the other thing that one of my friends really challenged me on, um, was that the reason why people weren't— one of the reasons why people weren't there for me is I didn't let them in. Oh, I didn't let them in.

That just hurt somebody. How you doing? I'm fine. I was a closer. So you're complaining about the fact that no one's in, but you won't let them in.

I wouldn't let them in because I was terrified. I was terrified they were going to go. And also, I had a habit. I had a habit where I cut it dead and Self-sabotage, you know, it's like, "Run hard." And so I think it would be worth asking yourself, when people ask how you are, do you tell them? What's your answer?

Yeah, that's good. Okay, you keep talking about running hard.

I love running.

Yes, have you always loved running? No, not in the figurative sense. Now we're talking about the literal sense.

I took it up when I was 30.

Okay, so you've been running for a while now, and you've run, I think you just finished a half marathon. Okay. Have you ever run a full? No. Are you going to do it?

No, I do not believe I am. No, you don't.

Cause listen, the marathon itself is bad, but that's not the problem. The problem is the training.

Exactly. I don't have time. Maybe when my kids leave home. And then you'll have some other reason to say you're not going to do it. Exactly. Cause that's the thing. But a half is like the perfect amount of time you can train for it.

It's over in a couple of hours.

Like you can, you can do that.

So you took it up.

Why? I took it up because after I got married and got back from honeymoon and had our first year, I realized I ate a lot of cake. I did. I love it.

But why that versus going to a gym or lifting weights or walking?

Like, why running? Because I was walking and it wasn't shifting anything. It wasn't doing the work.

Okay, is it the running versus the walking you think, or is it the running the longer, like just an extended period of time?

I, I think, yeah, I think it was probably that. And also I was, you know, newlyweds and my husband was kind of adventurous, adventurous in his ways and stuff. And so I'm like, okay, I'll do what you're doing.

And he was a runner.

He was, he was a runner back then. He isn't now. So I started running and the man stopped. He stopped. He stopped. Let me tell you about that. I see you, Christopher.

When is your next race?

Do you have one? I haven't, no. I'm trying, I think I'm going to try and do a couple of 10Ks this year. Okay. And I think I'm going to give my body a little bit of a pause, but I'm still like training and, you know, I mean, it's winter in Minneapolis, so—

Listen, somebody told me, I was like, oh, you know, I ran a marathon, I didn't start until later, and she said, girl, I didn't start until I was 50. Let me tell you why that's the best thing to do, because then you win all the races. Because when people are stopping the running, She said she came in and nobody else was doing it. She started actually winning the medals.

I was like, well, I don't know if that's the reason why I want to do it.

That's true. It is true. I ran 2 or 3 halves. I ran a full. Oh my gosh. My claim to fame. I don't— No? You don't do them again? It was miserable, but mainly because— it's miserable because it's 26 miles, but mainly because it rained. Oh no. And I run with music. I look like the Energizer Bunny with all my wires. Yeah, totally. And my And it rained, so my phone died. Oh no, no. So I'm running with no music, which is how I've trained. My shoes are now 3 times as heavy as they were because of the rain. They absorbed all the water. Yep. When I got to the end of the finish line, the people, you know, they wrap you in foil and they give you the banana.

Yeah. No, they had gone.

They had gone. This is criminal. And we saw a volunteer. We said, where's the— she said, oh, the foil is over there. Just go get yourself some foil.

26 miles.

As she was walking away, she was like, the foil is over there. And I think we have a few bananas left back there. So I was like, you know what, it was totally— that's not appropriate.

That's not appropriate.

It was totally demotivating. I would have had a snack after that.

A deep, big snack.

Oh my gosh. Okay, so what is it with the purple and the shoes? You have on some stripes. Stripes.

Adidas. Those are Adidas. Yeah, I have loved Adidas since I was a kid. My brother, my immediate brother, he went on a school trip to France And he came back with a pair of Adidas for me, and I have worn Adidas ever since.

I love your personality. I love your bubblyness, and I love, love, um, your realness about understanding your story enough to know how what's impacted you, whether you're aware of it or not, influences you. Yeah. Um, how you see your life and the choices that that you make as you move forward, because a lot of women only know that something's bothering them because they have a reaction. Yes. And then when the reaction gives them a clue that there's something to hunt down, they don't want to do the work.

No, no. And it's hard. It's hard, and it is terrifying. It can be terrifying.

But the other part of your life is on the other side of doing that work.

Absolutely, and it's important to just hang on and do that work. Yeah. Because there is freedom on the other side. There is good news on the other side. I often say to people, I would rather have counseling and that prayer and that work for a year if it transforms the next 20. Ooh! Because that's what's at stake. As a mother, as a wife, as a friend, as a woman.

Shoot, forget the next 20. Generationally.

I mean—

Whatever the legacy is that you leave is on hold until you deal with the thing.

It is. And sometimes we feel like if we're not dealing with it, then you're standing still. It's actually eroding you.

It's actually eroding you.

It's eating you from the inside out. And it's affecting other things. You may feel like you're just holding still, but your family know you're not.

Well, that's what happens, because when you see a woman who's been fine and then in her late 40s or her 50s, she just snaps and she's done.

Yes, she's done with the marriage.

She's done with the kids. Yeah, she moves, and you're just like, what happened? She was eroding and then one day she woke up and said, not doing it. You don't want to be that person. No, you don't. So if you're getting the indications, if you're having the emotional reactions, if your body, your mind, or your emotions are saying there's something here.

And if your contempt has gone to indifference.

If you're going numb. Yeah. You're not supposed to live that way.

Yeah.

That's more for you. And Joe is saying to you, there is a dream. Yes. Of who you are supposed to be. So do the work. Yes. Do the work. Listen, thanks for being with me.

Thank you. This was so much fun. Oh my gosh.