S 2 Episode 7: Jamie Ivey and Wynter Pitts

Hi, I'm Chrystal Hurst, and if you've been watching the Sister Circle Show for any length of time, you'll know this is not normal. I don't come on before I interview someone and intro the interview, but this interview is different. In this interview, I'm joined not only by Jamie Ivey but with my cousin Winter, and if you've been following me for any length of time, you know that Winter, my cousin, passed away in July of 2018 suddenly and unexpectedly. But this video that I'm going to share with you today, we actually recorded 2 years ago. Now, there's a reason I've held on to that video for this long, and I'll share that reason with you a little bit later. But for right now, I want you to know that just as I mentioned in episode 6 of season 2 with Jamie Ivey, that this episode with Wynter we were going to air— this is the episode, episode 7, my conversation with Jamie Ivey and my cousin Winter Pitts. I am so excited to welcome Jamie Ivey.

I'm so happy to be here.

To our little greeting here, Jamie Ivey does a lot of things, namely most people— would you say most people?

Probably.

Know you from being the host of the Happy Hour podcast, and it is a happy hour. It's fun to listen to you.

I love happy hours, not just like a happy hour that you go to, but I love happy with being with my friends.

Yeah, yeah. And I also want to I also have my cousin Winter with me who is my personal happy hour sometimes, basically.

I want to come join y'all.

We have personal happy hours.

Well, you are.

I know, I'm here.

You are, because you're here for us, right? For our happy hour with the Jamie from the Happy Hour Show.

Yes.

Is that what we're going to say? I like that. There you go. So I have you here because there are so many things that you do. If I jump on your Instagram feed, okay, you have live events, you have your podcast, you've got your family, you've got your husband, you've got your ministry, you have all the things that you do when you show us what what you're wearing in your clothes, and then of course the earrings, all the stuff.

We love earrings. Hello!

I'm sorry, yes, Winter has the earrings too. But the thing that I think about when I'm looking at all that stuff, not only it's what all you're doing, but you know, who is this person? Why are you doing all this stuff? Because we can hear what you do and benefit from what you do, be blessed by what you do, but why are you doing it? Who are you? And when you're smiling, which by the way, your Instagram feed, and we've talked about this, is full of joy. I think it's the dimples. I think it's the dimples.

It doesn't even matter what she's— she's like showing a hat and I'm like, "Oh, I love her!

I want that hat!" So I'm interested to talk to you about you, and of course we'll bring in some of the things that you're doing and why you're doing them. But first of all, I want to ask you, are you a naturally positive person? Because I see a lot of positivity in Joy. Is that natural to you? Is that something you work at?

I say yes and no. So I am a natural positive with like girlfriends. Like I love to have fun and encourage people and I see things on the bright side. I do have this weird side about me and my husband calls it my, I always have to think about it. I am the WCSD. He says I have that. Worst case scenario disease. Where if I'm at the beach, I know I'm gonna get eaten by a shark.

Or it's automatic.

Or it's gonna happen.

So you were just terrified the whole way in Uganda, I'm guessing?

Oh, I knew where a hippo was gonna find us.

Did you say a hippo?

Something. I don't know, surely there's hippos in Uganda. No, but I think that I am because I know that when I see people that are constantly negative and kind of down, it is hard. It's frustrating to me. And I think that first, I first noticed that when I first got married and I would see wives kind of talk down to their husbands.

You were like, I'm not gonna be that way.

I did, I did. I was like, I don't like how that looks. I'm not gonna be that way. And so I think that just kind of has rolled over.

That's what I was gonna ask, if it was an intentional, like if you remember feeling like that, because I feel like it's possible for all of us to do that, but it's an intentional thing. Like there's some people that are just naturally kind of joyous. They've always been. I've got one, Katie, like my 10-year-old, just always bubbly, always happy. But like, I have to work at it.

Yeah.

And if I work at it, then it's like, oh, it does work.

Let me tell you something. Let me tell you about this one right here.

What?

Okay. If you call her and she's not answering your calls, it's probably because she's not where she needs to be.

Like personally, like—

I'll be calling her, boxing her, texting her.

I don't want to ruin the mood for everybody because I am in a bad mood.

I actually think that that's a positive thing because when you know you need to pull back, then you just start like, I'm not going to drown everybody else in that. You know what I'm saying? If that's what it is. That's not always what it is.

You have to fight for it.

Yeah, it can be a little— I mean, it's a good thing. Like, I know, yeah, it's a good thing, but then it also can be— I need those people in my life that are like, yeah, where are you?

Yeah, like, come over and ring the doorbell.

Right, just ask.

I know you see me texting you.

I'm here. I also think this, though, like, for me personally, in the past 2 years with the happy hour, I think there's a lot more people looking at me, and so I give people what I would want them to see. Not that it's a lie.

Okay.

But, and not that there aren't hard times because I talk very openly. I'm very open. And every time I talk everywhere, I, every podcast, I will tell you, I got a counselor appointment every Monday. I've got a hard kid. You know, I had a hard fall, all those things. I'm open with them. But when you talk about my Instagram feed, I know what it wants to be. And I know that's what I want it to be. So I'm not lying. I just want it to be happy.

Right.

Because that's a place where I want to present joy.

So what do you do when you— I mean, what, what does that intentionality look like? I mean, what does it look like for you to go, okay, this is what I want to present, even if it's not the Instagram feed, in front of my kids, what I want to give my husband, what I want to give my friends? How do you pull yourself up, kind of? I mean, does that work at all, or just— you just have made up your mind and it's just you do it?

No, I think it takes work for sure. I mean, I, I don't believe in the mantra of like pull yourself up by your bootstraps and keep going because I can't do that personally. I I need Jesus to do that for me. And so for me, like even when we're talking about like, oh, she's not answering. Like I have, all of us do have times like that. And I have girlfriends who know me, like you know her. I have girlfriends that know me and know like, hey, you're kind of absent. How are you? And they're there for me. You know, my husband is that way for me as well. And so I think for me, it's a conscious decision of I do want to be happy and joyful because I want to be an encouragement to others. It doesn't mean I have to hide when I'm not.

Yeah.

It's just in certain areas I choose to be that way.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So, so one of the things that when we're being happy and joyful that we've talked about here lately, um, is beautification. Okay. So let's just take a left turn and talk about that because I happen to know on Jamie's way here. Okay. On Jamie's way here. Now we are all in Texas. This place is not everywhere. I don't think.

I don't think so because I just had someone send me a message today. Like what's up?

Yeah.

Okay. So there's this place place on Texas freeways. I know at least where 3 of them are. It's called Buc-ee's. Buc-ee's is like Walmart on the road. Don't you think?

Yep, that's exactly what it is.

Except it has the tinge of a lot of stuff you really, really want. Not stuff you need, but stuff you really want. So they have food, they have treats, they have gifts, they have all this kind of stuff. You stopped at Buc-ee's on your way here to buy some tweezers.

They also have tweezers.

They have tweezers.

You need tweezers, they have them.

So now not only does Buc-ee's have maple pecan glazed nut thingies, they have tweezers. Tweezers, and you picked up some tweezers because—

and now I'm like, I forgot I grabbed to look.

They're awful. I had my own eyebrows. I had to get my eyebrows waxed every like 10 days because I have a unibrow and I don't like wax— I don't like plucking them myself.

Okay, I could just have to completely draw them in like me, who has no—

you draw yours in?

I have no— like, there's like—

this is drawn in.

This is not clean because I don't even bother with trying to tweeze them up, but this is like— I have no But you drew that in, what's on your head? I mean, you know, it's a little bit, a little added in.

Yeah.

Well, yours looks nice too. You have yours done.

I thread them.

Yourself?

No.

Oh, I was like, girl.

But I go and have them threaded every 6 to 8 weeks. But that's basically, yeah, but it's quicker. So, and then I'll, because I want to make it last, then I'll tweeze out the little flyaways that pop up in the meantime. Cause I'm just like, you know, if you give money away to everybody who wants to pluck and tweeze and do something to you, you'll be broke.

I'm just saying, I looked at the micro, microblading, I think it's called. Have y'all seen that?

Where they draw it, like, it's like tattooing eyebrows on.

If I find somebody—

which you need because—

exactly. I'm waiting for a testimony.

I have a girlfriend in Georgetown that does it. Oh, and I got lots of testimony. Road trip. Yeah, stop and meet you at the Buc-ee's.

Right in Temple. Yeah, right.

I'm so serious. I've looked at all the ins— I'm like, I'm serious. Yeah.

Okay, so Just what?

What happened?

No, no, no. So brows, the tweezing, that's real. But another thing that we've talked about too is the eyelashes.

Yeah.

Okay. So now, y'all, this is because— it's so cute. Here's the reason why this is so important. Okay. Because we all love Jesus. Right. But one of the things I think we talk about in our little pockets, but we don't necessarily talk about on a platform. And so now, right, but this is the stuff we're all wondering. It's like, okay, threading, does it hurt? Or do you tweeze? Or do you wax? Or do we have a unibrow? Do we have to draw it in? I mean, you know, but everybody's trying to figure out what to do with their brows. Then you have the eyelashes, because whenever I do video stuff, the makeup artist always adds lashes, which makes me feel like I want to go to sleep because I'm walking around like this, you know, for a little bit. But then when you see the final footage or the final photo, you're happy you have them.

Huge difference.

It makes a difference. But you have found that there's another way. Tell us about that.

Well, I go and get mine done and I'm all like, "Eh!" But let me tell you—

Nobody's gonna try to zoom in on you. I know.

Wait, wait, wait, stop. I feel like I need to tell you this. I get them done every like 3 weeks, but I'm speaking somewhere this weekend. And so that's a thing for me is I want to look awake on stage. Like, I don't know.

I can't stop looking now. I know. But let me tell you. It's like getting them waxed. They are like so glued or something.

They are individually glued on.

And they don't come off.

No, no. Well, yes they do because I need to get them done and I showed up at my lady's place yesterday to get them done before this weekend and she had double booked. I didn't get them done.

They look done though. Well, we did.

Well, good, I'm glad. 'Cause I called my friend Amanda and I said, how can I even talk about Jesus without my lashes done? And she said, you need to repent right now is what you need to do. Uh, but she jokingly does them. I love them.

And they don't come off like every night.

No, no, no.

Just every 3 weeks.

I've had those done, like the Walgreens ones.

Is this the same friend?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so it takes like 2 hours and I take a nap.

And yeah, she takes a nap because you have to keep your eyes closed.

They like—

I feel like this is like for me. This is for me.

They tape your eyes closed and then you lay there for 2 hours. To me, it's a dream world.

I have no reason to close my eyes for 2 hours with tape.

I don't know.

I may get in there every other day.

They don't feel that way when they're individually glued on.

But let me tell you, okay, here's my issue.

The last time I had them done for a shoot, she did individuals and it did feel different.

She did individuals like right before you did yours?

Yeah, I mean, probably not this, but instead of a whole like line, she filled it in one and it felt different than the whole line.

Because y'all, when I go get my toes done, the toes I'm fine with, the hands are a whole other story. I need my hands. So while you're doing something, I could be doing something. But you're like, take my eyes out, please.

Well, if I'm gonna go all the way, I might as well just go all the way.

But this is 3 weeks, it lasts 3 weeks.

Yeah.

And how do you know it's time? Do they just start falling out?

They kinda like disperse. Like, I'll send y'all each a picture next week when I actually do get them done and remember what you're seeing and it's gonna be a little different.

Okay. You got it. We will see. Seriously. Who knew?

Who knew? I need my phone.

I need to like go start doing some research right now.

You don't need to do research. You have friends that have already done it.

I wanna go look at, I'm sure she has like social media or something, your friend that does it.

Like I've— You can find somebody here in Dallas to do it.

Yeah, but the last time I took off my lashes, I think I put that on Instagram. I was showing my son.

Oh yeah.

I peeled them off and he was like, that is so freaky. That is so—

My kids, the girls like to put them on.

Well, there's a—

Do you buy them for them to play with or something?

No, after video shoots or whatever and I take them off, they like to like—

Oh my gosh.

Well, there's an old Fresh Prince of Bel-Air episode. Okay. Okay, so they get stuck in the basement or something. I have to find this and send it to you. They get stuck in the basement.

These black girls are looking at you like, "What the hell is this?" I know.

Oh, I used to watch Fresh Prince of Bel-Air. Okay, they get stuck in the basement. It's Will and the girl and she starts taking her hair out.

Oh, I do remember that.

And then she takes her lashes off and her nails off and he's like, "What happened to you?" That's the things that women do sometimes.

Okay, so here's what I love about you. What I love about you is that you are real, but what I really love about you is that you are a real Jesus lover. What I love about you even more than the fact that you are real and that you really love Jesus is that you're a pastor's wife. I am. You don't fit any kind of whatever people think a pastor's wife is supposed to be. Good. You don't fit. So, okay, have y'all always been in ministry, or was this like an after-marriage, oh, this is what we're gonna do kind of thing?

No, so when I met my husband Aaron, When I first met him, I was not walking with Jesus, and so we were just friends, and then we ended up getting married.

He was.

Yeah, yeah, he was already working at a church, everything, and we ended up, you know, fast forward years, got married, and he was on staff at a church working in the student ministry. So we were like, student ministry, which means we went like to the beach and Six Flags, and you know, we were young. We were young, and so then, but I also had a really hard time being a pastor's wife. I was 23. I put a lot of perceived expectations on myself.

You thought you knew what a pastor's wife looked like.

I thought a pastor's wife needed to have no sin in her past. Okay. Like no, like, crazy stuff. And remember, I didn't start following Jesus until I was like 21.

Right. So I had lived this life. Yes.

Yes.

16. So I thought I couldn't have any of this stuff, and if I did, I definitely couldn't talk about it.

Right.

Because I perceived pastor's wives as having it together.

Having it together. Did your pastor's wife image have like a hat on? No, no, I think I don't even think like the set. I just think of what it looks like.

I just think of very, I thought very put together, dressed very nice, everything's perfect. And so I think I put a lot of that on myself. And so when we left and we lived in Tennessee for 5 years, and then when we moved back to Texas is for Aaron to take a job at a church. And I was like, I don't know if I want to be a pastor's wife. And so we came in and I was like, I will not put that pressure on myself. I didn't. And I've never felt it at our church ever.

Like, great.

I think a lot of people in our church couldn't even name the wives of the staff. Like, you know, we're just friends. Yeah, yeah. And so, yes.

Do you think that that has helped? Okay, have you ever— well, I know that it's helped your ministry, but do you— how has it helped your ministry specifically? And have you ever felt like it's hurt it for you just being who you are and being like, this is who I am?

Uh, maybe some people would say it's hurt it, I don't know.

But I mean, you haven't felt that.

I haven't felt that, but I always do tell Aaron, I'm like, let me know if I'm gonna do anything that might get you in trouble at work. When I created my show called The Happy Hour, I was like, is this cool? Like, you know, like, I know that you're a pastor, but I think it's helped a lot because people, the image that I had of pastors' wives, I think people have of them a lot, especially outside the church. And so then I feel like when I'm just like, oh, I can just totally be real and I might accidentally say a curse word. They're like, oh, you're real. You love Jesus with all that you have. And life is hard sometimes.— and man—

and the flesh is still the flesh.

The flesh is still the flesh. Yeah. And so I think just being real has helped people see that walking the life as a Christ follower does not equal perfection.

Yeah.

Because we don't get that until we see him.

That's right. I mean, we strive to be holy, but the problem is when we expect holiness 100% at all times from everybody, because we will always disappoint each other and ourselves.

We will always disappoint each other. We are always going to sin until we meet Jesus. Do we want to continue sin for sinning's sake? Absolutely not. Our goal is to look more like Jesus every single day. But we live in our flesh, like you said, and the flesh will always be at war with our spirit. And no one's going to conquer that unless you're Jesus, and we're not.

Here's what I think. I think my story gives me grace, and it gives me a different kind of grace for people. Who don't have it all together. And my heart is to make people feel at ease, not comfortable if change is what God wants to do, and that's what he always wants to do, but not uncomfortable enough to get what they need, to get help, to be honest, to be real, you know what I'm saying? And I think that sometimes, because I did grow up in church, I think that non-Christians and Christians are like, that's what you feel. I can't say I messed I can't say this is where I came from because if I do, they're going to judge me. It's going to change the relationships that I have or prevent me from the relationships that I want. So I just think your own experience, once you realize what God has done for you and you realize where he has brought you from, it can either make you very judgmental to other people or it can make you super grace-giving because you just know what you needed. Yeah, you know what you needed.

And I think we all have individual stories, and I always say stories change the world. I mean, God wrote— the entire scriptures are full of stories. And I think that it is such an honor when I sit back and look at your life and my life and your life. And if you're watching and you share your story, that when we get the opportunity to share our story, we're actually— the good parts and the hard parts and the bad parts— we're actually sharing this huge story of redemption. Because our stories, that's what they are. They're a huge story of redemption. And so when I get to share with someone, hey, let me tell you some of the things I struggled with. With when I was 21 and wasn't walking with Jesus. And hey, let me tell you some of the things I struggle with right now as a 38-year-old woman who loves Jesus.

You're 38?

Yeah, I don't look it though, do I, right?

No, it's the lashes.

It's the lashes. It's the lashes. You gotta go get some.

But I get to show them Jesus.

Yeah, so it really, I think, with lashes, it just, I think it just shows, it's like offering people freedom. You know what I mean? It's like really, like when you share your story, it just It's like, "Oh, I can breathe." Just offer somebody else freedom that they don't have to feel like they're in this box and can't be. It's like, yeah.

Yeah, because I think too what you get into is that people who have a past share their story, and then that leaves people who don't have a story going, "Well, you know, Jesus didn't have to come and get me out of the miry clay. I've actually been following him since I was 5." I mean, but when you have that story, then you probably have avoided a lot of consequences, a lot of unnecessary pain, and that story matters too. You know what I'm saying?

And also, Matt, whenever I talk to people and they're like, man, I didn't really do anything that bad. And I was like, yeah, you did.

You were a sinner.

I was gonna say, even if you're a true sinner, like on our best day.

But you know how great some of those testimonies are.

But I always want to tell people that say that, like, you do, like Jesus rescued you because without him you'd be lost in yourself and yourself.

Whether you told a white lie or you were laying in a white linen bed, it doesn't matter. It was Jesus having to rescue you from, because none of it, none of it was good enough.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, so pastor's wife, real lover of Jesus with really great eyelashes. I love this all. Okay, what are you passionate about right now? Woo!

What am I passionate about? This conversation that we're having makes me really, really passionate. Really encouraging women that no matter where you're coming from, no matter what baggage you have, no matter how you feel not worthy enough, that you still have the greatest opportunity to let Jesus change your life. And that Jesus is chasing people. Like Jesus is—

Running you down.

Yeah, he is in the business of bringing people home. And so I'm super passionate about that. I love encouraging women to do big things.

Okay.

I love, I love when someone comes in and they're like, hey, I'm dreaming about this.

Yeah.

I'm like, yes, you can do it. Like I wanna be a cheerleader and say, yes, you can do it. Another thing I keep talking about lately is there's this huge kind of like scarcity mentality among women sometimes of—

Explain what you mean.

I'll explain what I mean is that some people will come to me and be like, Jamie, I want to start a podcast. Is that weird that I want to start a podcast kind of like yours? And I'm like, are you kidding? You know how many people, you know how many women there are in the world?

Can I do it too?

Yeah.

Is there room for my voice?

Is there room for me? Or I don't want to do that because she's doing that.

Or feeling like a threat.

Yes. And I want to be like, no, I'm going to cheer you on. If you want to start a show called the Happy Hour with Winter Pitts.

Yeah, do it, Winter.

Go for it. I think that you should pick a different name. But I get it. But you get what I'm saying is I want to encourage women that you can do big things. Don't look around and think, well, I could never do a video series because Chrystal Hurst does that. Yeah, well, yes, you can.

It's a big world, number one.

Yes.

And then all of us have circles of influence. I have a circle of influence that you don't have. You have a circle of influence that I don't have. And if we don't work our own circles, then we are— we're robbing our, our world of what we're supposed to give. Yeah.

Well, I think, and even more than that, is just really being the person to support. Like, one of the things I love is that when I was starting, like, tween girl ministry stuff, it was like, do I really want to reach out to her? She does the same thing. Like, and I was always just welcomed and kind of like, yes, let me help you. I can show you what—

wasn't a spirit of competition, right?

And that like has always just stuck out to me as what you're saying, just like, yes, I want to cheer you on and help you because there are a gazillion of us and we all need it. Like, and we're all not getting it from the same channel.

So your voice matters. Yeah, like our voices matter. Your voice matters. Everyone has a voice and it matters. Um, and I think a lot of times women too look around and think like, Oh man, I wish I was doing what Chrystal was doing, and I wish I had the people, the influence that she has over people. And when I hear that and see that, what I see right away is that you're basically saying, God, I don't like what you put in front of me.

Wow.

Oh, I wish I had her. I wish I could do what she was doing. Instead of saying, God, you've given me this ministry, whether that is your 4 children or it is the 4-year-olds in the school class at church, or it is a Bible study every Wednesday morning, whatever it is. God, you've given me this. Am I gonna say, "I don't like them. I wish I had those ladies"? That's not good.

So give me an example of how recently, like, what does that look like tangibly with you encouraging women? I mean, besides the general, you meet a girl and she says it or whatever, like, how are you actively and intentionally doing that right now?

I feel like I do that through the podcast a lot. That would probably be my main way of reaching women because I've reached the most amount of women that way. And so I would say through the podcast I mean, I have a different guest on every week. And so I get to encourage them in what they're doing. And I get to say, hey, all my listeners, look at Chrystal Hurst, look at Wynter Hurst, look at whoever's on the show and look at the great things they're doing. And so that's fun for me is to be like, hey, I'm going to cheer you on for a whole hour. I love doing that.

And then you do it for a half hour too.

I do it for a half hour too.

Yes. Why did you start the podcast? Like, give me a behind the scenes, not a Yeah, I just thought this would be a cool thing to do, which maybe you didn't even think that way, but like what, what made you do it?

So I've always kind of wanted to have a job in front of people and that sounds really weird and it can make me look like a really shallow person.

No, you just know what to do with a microphone. Thank you.

I've gotten past that. I used to really like dread saying that out loud, but there's a part of me that I just feel comfortable in front of people.

Yeah.

Okay.

So, cause you don't want a microphone. That's not your like, Like, give me the microphone.

I don't know.

You don't know?

No. Come on, let's turn this show around.

I know what I don't want.

What is that?

What is that?

I don't want— I would rather have a microphone and talk to a general than these one-on-one attacks like this.

Like this right now? Like, I'm about to scream. Okay, so it's the general thing, the one-on-ones. Okay, all right, I got it.

Yeah, thanks.

Go back to you, sorry.

So I always, like when I was younger, I wanted to be a news anchor or something like that.

You always wanted to?

Yes. But it just didn't ever feel like it was in my reach. Very long story short, about 6 years ago, I won a contest where I live in Austin, Texas to be a morning DJ on a radio show, a country radio station.

Just random.

It was, I mean, it was—

You just won a contest?

I won it. It was like American Idol for Austineers.

Austineers.

So I won a contest Friday morning, I'm like stay-at-home mom, Monday morning I'm on air at 6:00 AM. I had no clue what I was doing, not a clue.

For a one-day shot?

For a J-O-B.

Shut up.

Yes.

Okay, all right.

So now I'm a working woman.

Yes.

And so I have this job and I'm doing this and I adore it. I love it.

How many kids, like what were you home with?

I had all 4 kids. My last 2 kids to join our family through adoption had only been home about a year from Haiti. So I start working and I loved it. I mean, it was so much fun and it was like this. So you're not looking at an audience. It's the same way when I podcast, but you know, there are people listening, right? And so it was so much fun, but about 4 months into it, it was the hardest time my marriage had ever been. My kids were just, our family was drowning. It was just, it was disaster for our family. And so I ended up quitting and I, I would do the decision again, 100%. I knew it's what God wanted me to do. But it was hard because I thought, why do I have to—

I'm not good at my job. Yes. So I can be home in this mess with the people I love.

Yes.

But still in this mess.

And it was the first time in my life as like a 31, 32-year-old woman where I was like, I found something I'm good at.

Yeah.

And I like it and I have a voice and I was the only Christian in the room. Like, why am I, why do I have to quit this? But I did and it was the best decision.

I just love, I can't stop like smiling at that because I love I love how God works. I just— because now we see the end, you know what I mean? Not the end, but we see what he did, like, from that.

Oh my gosh.

And so it just makes me so, like, just thinking, like, you know, he planted that desire in you, and just because it wasn't that specific way that it was supposed to look, like, he just— you were obedient, and then from that obedience of laying down something you loved, like, he just was able to really do and open up what he was like.

It's so true.

The real answer.

Yeah, it's so— I just—

yeah, I think Yeah, and I don't know that I would have started a podcast had I never done that, you know, because I found this love for that kind of medium of audio and interviewing. And so I quit, and that was— I was kind of bitter about it a little bit. And there at one point they asked me to come back, and my husband said, I don't think you should. And I was, yes! It's like I felt like people were holding me down. My kids, my husband, God. I just felt like everybody was—

So good! Yeah, I mean, not me personally, I just I felt like I was doing the right thing. I think everybody has been in a situation where they're trying to do the right thing.

Yes.

Because I know there's a friend of mine who is basically being a caregiver. She's taking care of her mom. She's single. She feels the exact same way. All the things that she's not doing, all of her friends that are going on a Friday night, she can't because she's trying to do the right thing. So when you're trying to do the right thing, it means you have to tell yourself no. That's the real feeling.

That's hard.

That's the real feeling.

Because I really did feel as though no one's letting me do what I can I can do well.

God is leading me.

So I did that and went home and, you know, life was life, stay-at-home mom. And I actually went on a mutual friend of ours, Katley's podcast called Inspired to Action. And I was a guest on her show just telling this whole story of the radio. There was, I mean, that was how it ended right there. I quit. Like that was the end of my story.

You didn't have—

I didn't have—

And God came through.

No, it was, I quit. And that was it. And so, but after I got done with her show, I thought to myself, I think I could do what she just did. And so about 6 months later, I just jumped in.

Bought a mic?

No, girl, you don't even want to know. What happened? I used my iPhone headphone.

Hey, but you have to start somewhere.

I tell people that all the time.

Yeah.

Because they think that you have to have all the equipment and you have to know everything. And when God puts something in your heart to do, you just do it.

You just do it.

And you don't try to have— I'm talking to myself— all of the 20 things that are on my checklist to do.

Oh, I'm talking to you too.

I know, because I'm a little bit like that.

Turn it on you.

You just do.

But in every story that we love to hear of how God does something in someone's life, he does something with someone who's willing to work with what he's given them. Every single time. Yeah, every single time. Yeah, yeah, every single time. Okay, so you did the podcast, and when you started it, was your goal for it at the beginning still your goal now, or has it morphed and changed at all?

You know, I always say we have 3 basic things that if this happens on every show, it's a success. But I think I developed those pretty early on, but not at the beginning. I mean, when I started, you just were like, I'm gonna do it.

Who was your first guest? Did you have, was it just you talking?

No, it was my best friend Amy, who, she has no platform. She's a mom to 3 and runs a special needs horse ranch. I mean, she just does her life.

But that sounds pretty interesting.

But I was like this, I was like, will you talk to me for an hour?

It wasn't like because I'm trying to highlight this or because it was just like, talk to me.

Me and my girlfriend, it was like we had a regular phone call and we recorded it and then put it up on iTunes. But then my next guest was my friend Jeanette Maker. So she has a platform.

Yeah, that didn't hurt.

That didn't hurt. So when I started, it was just kind of like a hobby. Like, this will be fun. My husband thought it was a hobby. I thought it was a hobby.

So you didn't start out intentional, I'm shooting, I had these goals.

No.

You didn't do that.

You just started doing it.

Those developed along the way. Along the way. But now we say on each show, if we encourage women in whatever stage of their life they're in, they're in, if we inspire them to do big things and we point them to Jesus, if we've done those 3 things, we've done our job.

Okay, I love it. I love it. I love it. Okay, what are you working on now?

What am I working on now?

I know the answer to this.

So I am working on a book. That's what you're talking about, right? Okay.

There's other stuff. I'm sure there's other stuff.

No, you guys have both— you're ahead of me. I'm like in behind you saying, tell me what to do. But I'm working on a book. It comes out next January.

So you have actually turned in a manuscript.

Yes, turned in your manuscript.

I have turned in a manuscript.

That is such—

That was the weirdest thing ever to put everything in one document and see it's like 51,000 words that I wrote.

Okay.

Then I'm like, I don't even remember what I wrote.

Honey, somebody said, what chapter is it?

I'm like, I don't know.

I don't even know.

Were you, 50,000 words was your thing?

50,000 was my goal.

And you went over.

I think I did go over, yeah.

'Cause I hear a lot of people don't. Oh, they go under? I hear a lot of people are struggling for words.

You went over, I bet.

Yeah, that wasn't my issue.

She wrote 3 books. I was like, can I borrow 3 chapters?

I know.

Because I'm out of words.

They tried to get me to say, save this for another book. And I was like, no, it goes in this one. And now I'm afraid I wrote a book that's too long. Because I picked up a 300-page book off my shelf and I'm like, dang.

That's a big book.

I will say though, with that whole save it for the next— I remember Priscilla actually She was telling me that, just don't, 'cause I went over, well, they ended up having to cut it, whatever, and she just said, "Don't get rid of them, like keep it." And it was, I had, when I went to book 2, like it was over.

You had some already.

Yeah. I was like, "Perfect." I know, I didn't think about it.

Smart. Just, but it's fantastic.

So why are you writing a book?

Why am I writing a book?

Can we know the title yet?

Can we know the title yet?

Can we talk about that? It's called "If You Only Knew." Doesn't that sound great? Yes, Holly Mina, that title makes me wanna go, "No what?" The funny thing is yesterday my girlfriend Amanda sent me a picture that she saw my book cover.

It freaks you out.

And I was like, she saw it online.

Yeah.

'Cause I put it up on Amazon.

So we can go look at, I need my phone.

Like I need that.

But I got a stomachache and I thought, oh my gosh, they're actually gonna release this. Yeah.

Like all of your words, we're all gonna read them.

Like if signing the contract wasn't enough.

That makes me sweat.

Doing the work wasn't enough. Now it's for real.

Wait, people are gonna read it?

Yeah.

They're gonna read it.

Can y'all go back and read or even listen to, like, I have a hard time watching, listening, or reading anything that I've done. Like, once it's done, yes. Like, once it's done, I just need to forget that it happened.

Because you see all the things you could have done better, or why?

I don't know. It just kind of, maybe it's that whole, it just makes me a little like, I would rather just forget that it happened. Like, just, just kind of, it did it, it's there.

But see, what I hear, if you're speaking, and we do all speak too, people who pick up your book, they want to hear you talk more about what they've read. Or if you speak about it, they're going to go, Is that in your book? They always want to continue the conversation that they've started with you one way or the other. So I don't think you can do that.

No, you can't.

No, it does make me feel like I have a hard time reading it or seeing it or like just kind of— I just have a hard time. So y'all don't have it? That's just me? Y'all don't feel like—

Well, I mean, I'm in the middle of edits and I am sometimes looking at it. There's— I do two things. One thing I'll be like, oh gosh, I'm glad they fixed it. That's awful.

And then I'll read a sentence and be like, "Dang, that's good." Or some of the edits that they made, I was like, "Nope, the way I had it is the way I want it." See, I'm like, open it up and just hit accept all. You should do that. I do not. I'm just too busy. I thought about doing that. I was so frustrated and just overwhelmed, and then I was so glad when I went in because a lot of what you do, going back to what you said earlier, is all about your voice. Yeah, and even an editor with great editing skills that's trying to make you be polished, sometimes the way you said it or what you said, yeah, you meant to leave that in there. Maybe it's supposed to shock people or take them on a little bit of an emotional roller coaster or just tell them about it the way you would say it. Yeah, yeah, and you have to, you have to let your voice be brave enough to let your voice be your voice. Yeah, so have you enjoyed the book writing process?

The book writing process was really hard for me. For several reasons. I would say book writing, like some people are like writing is their first gifting.

Yeah.

It's not my first gifting. I'm much more comfortable with a microphone, that type of thing. So that was, it was a very like, took a lot of work on my part.

Yeah.

Very much dedication and discipline, whereas some things come easier. So there's that. It also is kind of memoir-ish. So I went back a lot and told a lot of hard stories. And so I would go back and I would be emotional from them. I did a lot of writing where I went away just because I have a podcast and I have that kind of job and do events. I have a job at my house, right? So going into my office to write was really hard for me because I would start doing other stuff. So I went away and when I would go away, I would get really emotional. I would eat like a lot of fried pickles, Doritos, and all kinds of nasty. And then I would feel gross. And then I would write and be very emotional. And I, every time, every single time I went away, I would call my husband and say, I want to come home. I need, I needed him. I was like, I just need you to hug me. Like, I needed, I needed love a little bit because I don't even know why. But so it was really, really hard emotionally. But I think I had to do that.

Okay.

Give us the, the book is about.

So it's called If You Only Knew, and it is my, and it's my unlikely and unavoidable journey towards freedom. And so by no means do I have accomplished freedom because like we said, we will be free the day we meet Jesus. But I am way more free than I've ever been in my life with sharing my story, owning my story, seeing Jesus in the hard parts of my story, not being embarrassed to say things out loud to other women. When I married my husband, he was a pastor. I was the first girl he ever kissed. And I had been sexually active since I was 16.

So he comes to the altar just ready. Just ready.

Just clean. Clean.

And you're just like, thanks for picking me up.

I'm like, just take me as I am. So I came into our marriage feeling very like, I did know that Jesus loved me and he had forgiven me and cleansed me. But I didn't feel that way.

Yeah, you still gotta work through that.

And I felt like I was like a bad choice for my husband. I felt like that sin was constantly hanging over me, my choices. And so I brought so much brought so much shame into my marriage.

Shame that you were putting on yourself.

On myself.

Like, he wasn't doing that to you.

Oh no.

Yeah, it's just, we walk with it.

Aaron wasn't putting it on me. Jesus definitely wasn't putting it on me. He takes that away from us. But I just put it on myself and it hurt me in ministry, it hurt my marriage, it hurt me in parenting, it hurt all kinds of things. And so it's my journey of kind of owning my story and owning who I am. Yeah, that's good.

That's what it is.

I'm so excited. Yes. I'm so excited. I cannot believe we've been talking. This whole time, this whole time. And neither one of y'all before we started or this whole time we've been talking told me to take this doggone band off of my wrist.

Oh, I didn't even notice.

Somebody will be watching this and be like, she did not even realize that she had this on her wrist.

You know, they had these bracelets now that you put your hairband in so that you can keep them without it being a pain. Yes.

Mm-hmm. Cause this is really where they go.

Oh, I took mine off because it bothers my watch, but I think it's great.

Didn't even realize. Well, it's here now, so.

I want to ask you something because you said you went away to write. Okay. And so I know that you have done something recently that helps other people go away to write.

Oh, uh-huh.

So tell us about— you now own a retreat center.

That's crazy.

You didn't let her tell it. No, tell us about it.

Oh, about it.

Yes, about it.

Okay, no, tell us, what do you own?

So, my, it's not just me, my husband and I and another couple. And then another man who's kind of silent, a silent investor, shall we say. So we love hosting, we love hospitality.

Your events you do in your backyard.

Our events, my house, we do a lot of things at our house, my husband and I. He brings his whole worship team to our house. Like we have a big Fourth of July party I should invite y'all to. It's got, we got bouncy houses and all kinds of stuff. So we love hosting, we love hospitality.

But does he cook for those? Yes.

That's what I want to know.

Yeah, I'll be there and I'm going to get my eyelashes done.

I'm telling you, it's a whole road trip situation.

Yeah, it is. He cooks and I just walk around handing out drinks and food and, you know, all that kind of stuff. So we love it. Our friends that we bought the place with, uh, Brad and Noelle Otts, they also— we are so much alike in this way. They've been dear friends of ours for about 5 or 6 years. And another— we knew— we know about this this place we've been here, it's called Green Acres. And the previous owners of Green Acres texted my husband Aaron last year and said, hey, we are thinking about selling. We don't want to put on the market. We want people who will love it and care for it and take care of it.

And because y'all have been doing what God has put on your heart to do, when they got ready to sell, they called you. Yep. It wasn't— it goes back to your point about just doing the next thing and how God just shows up with you doing the next thing.

Yeah. So we've been doing this forever and now we own a place and it has yurts on it. Do you know what yurts are?

No. What is a yurt?

You don't know?

Spell it. Y-E-R-T-Z?

Y-U-R-T. This is so fun.

I've been on the Instagram page, so maybe I've seen them.

It's a teepee.

Okay, yes, I've seen it.

It's a teepee.

Why is it called a yurt?

I don't know that.

Why don't we just call it a teepee? Because it is.

You'll find out, I'm telling you. When you see it, it's huge.

I mean, there's like a queen bed in it and a twin bed and a desk.

Oh, well that's why it's a yurt.

Yeah.

'Cause a teepee doesn't have that.

Yeah, a teepee's not gonna have all that.

But it's cloth.

I saw a family, I think, posted a picture. 'Cause literally, like when you posted it, I was like, I wanna post this.

It's like a tiny home. It's like a little home.

They were like a family of 5, I feel like.

And they stayed there that weekend at Green Acres.

Y'all have now learned what a yurt is. Don't use that word ever again.

So I'm gonna tell you something else. Are you ready?

Yes.

What happens out at Green Acres is called glamping.

Okay.

Do you know this?

Nope, let's keep going with the words we don't know.

So glamping would be like glamorous camping.

Oh, I could do that.

Me too, right?

When I heard the glam, I was like, I think I could.

I was trying to give you a high five, you moved it too far.

Okay, so I'm still worried about that end, the amping.

So you're camping, but it's glamorous 'cause you're in a yurt.

We have this— Oh, the yurt!

We have this like outhouse bathroom, so you have a nice toilet and a nice shower.

Shower, but it's a nice—

it was so nice.

It looks really cute.

We have like organic, like 8,000-count sheets. I mean, it is nice. So this is glamping.

This is great.

And y'all are gonna do— what's the— what is the vision for this?

And it was already glamping?

Yes, but the family that owned it lived on grounds. None of us lived there. Okay, so it's a full like Airbnb. You can find it on Airbnb and you check it out and go stay there. So it has a full kitchen. I mean, it is just a place— there's no internet, so it is a place to literally go and just rest and unwind and just be, which, golly, doesn't that sound nice?

Yes, yes.

Which is why you went away to write.

Which is why I went away to write, yeah.

Okay, I hope you're enjoying this conversation between Jamie Winter and I, but this is the part of the conversation where I told you at the beginning it might be a little controversial. I want you to know that I know that for some of you this topic might be controversial, but I think we have to be free to have conversations about everything, even where we might not see eye to eye. And that is the key word I want you to remember as we go into this next segment. Freedom. The word is freedom. Not only do we have freedom in God, freedom in Christ, and freedom to live out our walk in him, but we have to give each other the freedom for God to do a work in us and to convict us about whatever he wants to convict us of based on his word. So that said, whether you agree or disagree, whether you agree with us or see this topic totally differently, we're free. Remember that. And I'd love to hear from you in the comments as you watch this section. So tell me what you think. I'd love to hear from you. Okay, here we go.

Which is why I went away to write. Yeah, because I could not do it in my house.

Because you can't.

Yeah, too much other stuff happens in the house. It's like a trigger. It's like dishes, laundry, nap.

For me. Happy hour. Happy hour. We have happy hour.

So speaking of, we're celebrating.

We're celebrating. Glamping.

And glamping, you can drink wine. You don't have to drink like nasty, like hot cocoa with your kids.

You can glamp it.

Glamp it.

Did you get any flack from your happy hour name?

No, I have not. Am I the only one that's really gonna take a sip? I'm gonna take a sip.

You have to sip after a conversation, you have to sip. My friend Catherine Garza taught me that, that you have to sip after you clink or else, I won't say it on camera, but something will happen. Oh, is this adult only?

I mean, I can't control what people do with it, but we have warned you. This is adult only. What?

She says if you don't clink after you drink, you'll have bad sex. I'm just saying, that's what she told me. I'm just telling you what my friend Catherine told me.

I'm telling you, with wine there are a lot of rules. I went to Napa Valley and I didn't know. I did not know. Okay, so let's talk about this for a second.

Did y'all go together?

Yes, we did.

We did. It was my 40th birthday.

Yes.

How old are you? San Francisco, I'm 45 this year, honey.

You do not look 45.

I'm gonna accept that.

Take that in. And are you wearing lashes?

No, these are mine.

They look good.

It's called They're Real and it's a $20 mascara from Ulta.

Oh, well, then.

And it works for me.

That's why it's $20, it looks good.

Yeah, it works. Okay, so I didn't know, so I grew up in a home and we did not drink. I think my dad went to seminary, actually you had to to sign something that said you weren't going to drink. And I mean, so growing up, this was like, you just don't do that.

Okay.

So we have discovered that it may not be a Christian thing overall. I mean, what do you think?

I actually think in the South—

Is it a South thing?

I don't know. I think in the Christian world, and it may be more, it's either, and I don't know which one, it may be a mix of denomination and ethnicity. I think it's a thing. I think in the Black church culture, it's a little more looked down upon than in what I found.

I grew up in a Southern Baptist home, and this was like the number one sin. Maybe that's a big statement, but—

Everything— Look at everyone!

It was the root. It was the root. It's where it all started.

It was just— Well, I grew up in that you want to be set apart, and so you want to be different, so you want to be different from the world. And no, I have not taken any flag, and I'm in a completely different place in my life with this. Austin is so different. But you know what I've discovered too is I grew up— when I would meet friends at college and they grew up Methodist and they loved Jesus with everything just like I did, we never had these conversations.

Never had these conversations. I went to a Methodist church just recently to hear Handel's Messiah, and afterwards their fellowship hall, it was wine and cheese. Yeah, I was like, who knew people did this in church? Yeah, yes. But it was shocking for me.

And around the world it's different.

And around the world— it was shocking.

That's what my next thing was going to be. Well, one, I remember saying it when I met you, like, with the group in Uganda, because it's these Christian leaders.

Oh yeah, tell them how y'all met. We didn't talk about that.

So we went to Uganda.

We went on a trip to Uganda.

Yeah. And I, and I, I loved Jamie from the beginning because she ordered a burger with gluten-free fries or something that just was—

No, I said I would like a burger with gluten-free bread and I'll take fries.

And fries.

And I was like, there's a gluten-free Gluten-free, go with the fries.

I'm not gluten-free, I just like gluten-free bread.

Which is another reason why I love your story, because it wasn't that long ago that we took that trip. I don't know, but you were, you know, talking about maybe wanting to write a book, and you were— yeah, your podcast was growing. But like, anyway, it makes me like— it's just, I've been able to watch like God just work like through your obedience and your plan. So, but on that trip though, we, you know, it was like Christian leaders, and we had like wine, and we were like And I was like, we're gonna drink this right now. Like, you know, like, and so anyway, this is why, and the same thing around the world. Like when we went to like Israel, Christian leaders, like a trip. And it was like, where's the—

And I don't think it's fine. I think if, cause what the Bible says is don't get drunk. That's what the Bible says. I think we have to leave room. We have to give each other permission to be free when it's not an issue of sin. And if God has not convicted you of something, you know, and if it's not causing somebody in your circle stumble. We can't be sweating all this stuff that Jesus didn't, you know what I mean?

Yeah, and we're grown people, like I'm a grown woman, like, but what I mean by that is— I can do what I want. Not that I can do what I want, although I do feel that way sometimes, but I'm also like, you know what, when my grandma might come over, right, and she doesn't like that, or if I were to go to her house, I would never be like, "Grandma, where's the wine?" You know, or something. It's just like I think it is smart too to be like kind to the people that you're around. If I have a friend who is struggling with alcoholism, I'm not going to open up a bottle of wine when she comes over.

Right, right, right, right. There's a consciousness about it, about how we live. Forget this. There's a conscious— and y'all, we were very intentional about this. We wanted to talk about it. We have to be conscious about how our lives impact other people.. But I think what we've done in the Christian world is enslave each other. It's not become about, you know, trying to win the lost. We've just been like, okay, here are the list of rules, and if you're doing that, then shame on you.

Yeah.

And that's what we've done to each other. So we're walking around shackled about stuff that's not even an issue of—

which is what exactly Jesus taught against when he was walking on this earth. All the rules, all that, all the hypocrisy and the heresy and all of the like binding up of watching everybody and what they're doing, you know, and Jesus is like, "I came to fulfill the law and I'm here to make things different." So yeah.

Relationship, relationship, love it. Okay, so. Go ahead, no, go ahead.

No, I just wanna ask you this because as I was just having my little memory lane thing with you and just kind of like, I'm so in love with you, Miyagi, like I just think you're awesome.

'Cause when you travel internationally with someone.

You immediately just, you.

You're bonded.

You like— She never gets this excited about me coming on this show.

I love Chrystal Hurst.

Well, we know this inherently, but that's not what I'm saying. Go ahead. I don't even know anymore.

No. Okay. So yes, thinking about that, I am just curious to what you think. Like, you're kind of a thing. Like, people love you. Like, we, you know, and we love you.

Like, I literally was like, I'm going to put on my Jamie Ivey earrings this morning.

Like, you know, it was a big deal. So what do you think? Does it surprise you? Or just what do you think it is that people— that you have provided for people?

Why do you think you're a thing? Yeah. Like, why do you think— not that we don't think you should be a thing, but you are a thing. Why do you think that is?

And even just, yeah, what do you think you have that makes people like you?

Yeah.

I have my own answers, I think, but I'm wondering what you think.

I think I'd rather hear your answers, but I'll tell you the fastest.

This is why I'm a thing.

I know, that's just—

this is why I'm a thing. I'm not like you a thing, but just what do you think is the message you're giving to people that they are so like, that they want? Yeah.

Here's what I hear from people.

Okay.

Okay.

That's a good way to come at it.

Here's what I hear from people. Um, because my podcast has grown so much in the past year even, um, is I hear from people that they say, um, you're real. Um, you are authentic. You make people feel comfortable, you don't think too highly of yourself. I mean, I'm just, I make a lot of mistakes and, you know, I mix up my words and I can't even say my R's correctly, you know, and I don't know why I have a podcast. But I think that's what I hear from people. I think I just want to be like a safe place to invite people in. But sometimes like even hearing you say that, it makes me feel like, oh man, I hope I can do this.

Yeah, don't do that. No, I think that was my thing. I think it's because you do offer just that realness, yes, that people feel like they are getting just a real person.

And the beauty of it is it's not really about you going, okay, let me strategize and what can I give, although you do want to be intentional and excellent and all that. It really is just a continuation of everything you've always done, which is I just I just want to offer me. I want to offer who I am. If that blesses you, I want to offer encouragement if that helps you. I want to offer to you what Jesus has done in my life. I mean, that is the heart behind it. So, you know, that's the good thing about doing and continuing to do what God has put into your heart to do, because he put it into your heart and you are the only person who can be you.

Yeah, and that comes from everything that I said that I used to struggle with.

Yeah.

Of being like, am I, am I good enough to be a pastor's wife?

Wife.

Such a big thing for me where I never felt good enough to be that way. And now that makes me crack up laughing because that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my entire life. Am I good enough to be a pastor's wife? What do you mean? Like, it should be like, do I love Jesus? Like, am I pursuing my husband in a great way? Am I a great ministry asset to our church? Not am I good enough to be a—

what is that?

That's so dumb.

But it's a question that we would ask of ourselves and feel inadequate.

And so my journey through that has then say like, here's why I'm good enough, because of Jesus. Like, yeah, that's it, period.

Yeah, that's great.

Yeah, love it, love it, love it. Okay, so we haven't talked about— we have to talk about it before we come to a close. You and Aaron have 4 children, but you have a blended family. You talked about adoption, but you also have a multiracial family. Look, the reason why I got to ask you about this is because of Story. Okay, so first of all, I love her name, that's number one.

Yes.

But she had Story on Insta story, which I must have missed.

And so now—

oh, it was the best one ever.

It was the best one ever. So story, okay, so if y'all don't know, you know, we women of color, we have hair things going on. All women have hair things going on. We have a little special extra dose of hair. You do.

That's a thing.

Okay.

If you're white—

a white woman has spoken. So if you see my hair straight like this, it's just, it's not, it's going to turn back. It's going to turn back. Okay.

So anyway, drive-through red dirt in Uganda and everybody else can just go shampoo their hair.

I'm like, I didn't bring a blow dryer and a flat iron and I have red dirt for the next 9 days. And I appreciate my curly hair and I appreciate my straight hair, but Story was on Insta Story. Now you put braids in her hair. Was she going from braids to no braids? Is that what it was that time?

Yes. So first of all, when I have Story on Insta Story, people are like, she's my favorite person in the world.

Oh my God.

She's been doing her little accents recently and then she was So now we're in the South.

Yes. Oh, okay. I'll let you tell the introduction.

She is— God gave me her last because when we get to 18, Erin, I'll be like, dear Jesus, take the wheel. Like, how did we make it? She's hilarious and she is going to do big things.

I can already see that.

And we pray to God for the kingdom.

She is confident in her own skin. Can I just say that?

We say she's going to lead people to Jesus or we don't know where.

So we're just like, God, please let it be Jesus.

Please let it be Jesus. So Story, we were at the baseball field last night and y'all, white people, oh my gosh, they're always asking, they're always asking about our hair. And so she had, we do extensions a lot and braids. So does Story still have?

No, no.

I'll tell you the story.

So she did, we do extensions a lot, but then it's softball season. So we got that helmet on a lot. We're going in every 3 weeks to get just cornrows in.

Okay.

So her hair went from long to cornrows.

Okay.

And she just, her hair has not been growing fast her entire life. It's just a thing. I hear that. So she goes from long to cornrows and everybody doesn't understand. And no one knows. And I said, Story, now, you know, cause we did this last softball season. Everyone's going to say, Story, did you get your hair cut? And she's like, no, I didn't get my hair cut. And so we went to baseball, we went to softball the very first night and we walk up and there she is. And all her little white friends were like, Story, you cut your hair. And she looked at me, she goes, mom, there it starts. And so I always have to tell Story, I was like, white people don't understand what you can do with your hair.

And so I'm like, versatility, it's versatility, people.

I'm like, it's amazing. Like if I, I go from short to long, it takes me months unless I put extensions in. But you know, it's different for white people. And so anyhow, I did an Insta story and I was like asking her about what happened and she's just like, "White people just don't understand." And you know she had the thing on her too, so when she talked she had a protection effect.

She's like, "White people just don't understand." I loved it. I loved it.

I can't believe I missed that one.

Yeah, white people just don't get it.

So I love it. Has having a multiracial racial family presented a challenge for you? I mean, because of that at all?

Yes and no.

I mean, kids present issues, but you know, have you, what has that been like for you?

Yes and no. When we lived in Nashville before we lived in Austin, we just had our two kids, um, Caden, who is our bi— he's our only biological. And then we had our second son that we adopted, Deacon, who is, um, biracial, birth mom white, birth dad black. So living there, even with like a biracial son who literally we can be like the same color in the summer. We got a lot of— it was awkward sometimes. People were like, why would you adopt someone who's Black? And you know, so there was that. Moving to Austin—

hold on, I have to ask this. Did you get any looks from Black women in the store?

Um, I have been in a grocery store, Walmart, with Story on a Saturday morning when my hair looks a fool and her hair looks a fool, and I have left I'm spending $185 on product the Black woman put into my cart for me.

So they're helping you out. They're like, let's help you out.

It's a thing. But here's what I've also learned is I used to— people used to ask me all the time, do you know how to do her hair? And I used to feel guilty for not learning because I thought I'm white, I need to know how to do her hair. But I have learned that a lot of Black women do not know how to do their daughter's hair.

It's a work in They pay to have it done. They pay to have it done or they spend a fortune trying new products. I have a million products under my kitchen cabinet because you got to buy it to try it and see if it works. If it worked for you, it doesn't work for me.

I'm not a product person. You're not? I'm not a product person.

I've tried lots of stuff for Story.

What? Why are you not a product person?

I think because I grew up— this is like so off topic, but I grew up with a— my aunt had a salon in the basement.

You don't count. The rest of those brown hair type products.

I kind of know what works. Yeah. And then my girls, they kind of took— my husband's mixed, and so they kind of took more of his side, so they don't require as many products. Yeah.

So you're the only full-fledged Black-haired woman in your house, and you go get your hair done.

And I go get my hair done.

Yeah.

Yes.

See, that's why I'm like, I don't feel guilty about that anymore. I did at first, but now I'm like, no. Gwen, we've been with her for 6 years.

Praise the Lord for Gwen.

Praise the Lord for Gwen. So you were asking if it's been hard. In Austin, everything's pretty much a go, like it's good. Now we just recently moved about a year ago and we moved from in the city where my husband, myself, and my oldest son were the minority in our neighborhood. It was predominantly Hispanic and then Black and then white. And we moved away from there and it was a we had to make a really big call because we moved to get more land, to get more space. We have 4 kids. We kind of needed to kind of bring a little bit of peace into our life. We lived like inner city, so we need a little bit of peace. But what came with that was the 0.00001% of Black people at their school. And so that's been a challenge for us. And that's something that we had to really say.

Because your kids are at risk. Is that why it's a challenge?

They haven't been wrestling yet, but they will. Well, the challenge for me is I know they will, and I will never assume that they won't wrestle with that. I even asked one of my kids, each of them have another black kid in their class. I'm not sure if the principal does that on purpose or not. If he does, I'm happy about it. I really am, 'cause I want my kids to be around people that look like them because I can't give that to them. So I know they're gonna, challenges are gonna come with that. Like all kinds of challenges. Like here's an example. Yesterday, one of my boys, he's Black and he's 12 and a half and he is starting to look like a man. A man.

'Cause I saw it.

A man. And he was playing around outside, like had his pants hanging down, joking around. And I was like, you need to pull your pants up. 'Cause I think that looks gross, right? And the thought came to me, people are gonna think things about him if he's just playing around at school. With his pants like that. Without knowing him, they're gonna make assumptions about him. And that makes me sad. It's hard for me. I have shed tears over how am I gonna parent a 16-year-old Black boy in a predominantly district white school? Like what are people gonna think about him without knowing him? And so that's really hard for me. And so Aaron and I just, you know, we, Jesus, like parenting is just Jesus, you know, and so there's all those kind of things and for us trying to really make sure our kids see people around us and leadership and all kinds of things.

I think that's for all parents, all parents are trying to figure out what to do and all parents are trying to figure out whether it's ethnicity-wise, socioeconomic differences, or just outside of your own box in your family, how to expose your kids, you know, I have 3 boys boys, 2 of which are total engineers. Nobody in my family is the engineering type, nobody. So I've been trying to seek out other people who that's their thing, because I'm like, I can't— up to a certain point I'm good, and after that I can't help them. So I think that's a— obviously it's a specific point of parenting, but I think it's— that's what we're all trying to do, is figure out how to raise our kids the best way we can and then expose them to what we don't have to give them, you know, and praying that Jesus makes up the difference. Yeah.

Have you had to— have you had things amongst themselves, like things that you've had to address because they've said certain things, or because now even in the new school that they have come home with just new opinions or comments to each other regarding race, or do they even acknowledge— like, what is the—

Yes, I was about to say no, but then yes. My daughter, she's in 3rd grade, and she was super sad a couple weeks ago, and I was like, what happened? You know, and she told me that she was walking behind these two boys at school, and you know, 3rd grade, like they say dumb things, right? And one of the boys said, kids are so mean. Oh, my kids, your kids, all kids are mean. We just got to show them Jesus.

Cause they tell it like it is.

Yeah.

Cause they're real.

These two boys were walking and they did not know Story was behind them. And one of the boys said, ooh, you like Story like third graders do, right? And he goes, no way, she's black.

Oh, how sad.

And so that, she came home and told me that and hey, I'm white. I have no way to relate to that, you know, but I do have a way to relate to people saying mean things to me or people not liking me because I'm a woman or, you know, there's other ways. So that's something that happened and that makes me so sad. And I don't bring growing up Black to the table. So I can't relate to that in that way.

Can I say honestly, when I hear that, 'cause just having 4 girls, like I hear that and I think, you know, I think because of my family set, my own family set up, like my kids have a German grandmother, you know what I mean? We just kind of deal with it a little differently. But what I hear is that even my daughter, who's not even allowed to have a boyfriend, but when she came home telling me that her crush did not like her back, I still was kind of— it still— and it wasn't because she was Black. He's Black. But it still did something in me that I was like, what? So I feel like even though that was the race thing, I think you can relate to that either way.

I mean, there's some stuff— yeah, because I mean, when I was in the Black school, in the Black school and my Black crush didn't like me, I was messed up. When I was in the white school and Tommy Sullivan didn't like me— who was white, honey— I was just as messed up.

Yeah.

I mean, like, as an adult, I think I had a dream about Tommy Sullivan.

I hate that Tommy Sullivan. I hate Tommy Sullivan.

So I mean, yeah, there's different things, but then there's a lot of different things.

Which for me too is like, I don't ever want to put on that it's race. But I'm white, so I don't ever want to not say it is either. You know what I'm saying? Like, sometimes I feel like I don't have the opportunity to say that's not because she's black.

You know, one of the greatest things that I've learned in parenting, period, is that helps every single time when you're not sure. Most of the time we want to give them the answer, and really the greatest gift in parenting is just to ask them questions and let them tell you, and to know that— and for them to know that you're there when they're ready to talk. I'll never forget a mom of 7 Chrystal Hurst told me, I go to each kid and I try to sit there. She said it makes for a long bedtime, but I sit there for 5 minutes and I just rub their feet. And most of the time, particularly when the boys are teenagers, they will not talk to me. But the thing is, they know I'm coming, and when they're ready to talk to me, they know I'm going to show up. I'm going to rub their feet and they can tell me what they need to tell me when it's time. And I've never, never forgotten that, that half of the battle in hearing what's on your kids' heart is one, asking questions, and two, being like clockwork, showing showing up so they know they can depend on you. You need to talk. So half of the things we don't even have to know the answer for. We just need to be there to help them out when they need to discuss something.

I tell you what I won't be doing though is rubbing any of my kids' feet.

Under the covers. You can do it under the covers.

Okay, and then I just did the math. I just did 7 times 5. That's a long bedtime.

35 minutes was a long bedtime.

But you know, my kids rotate.

You could rotate.

But I mean, I agree though, my kids, especially one of my kids that very much introverted and I got to kind of pull things out, you know, when they come out? Bedtime.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, when they're tired.

Yeah, that's when I start talking.

Me too. Yeah, so I mean, it's so true.

Yeah, I love it. I love it.

I love it.

This has been such a great conversation. I'm like, is there anything else I want to ask the infamous Jamie Ivey while she's sitting here on this island at Winter's house? But I'm so grateful that you came and I hope this has been fun.

This has been so much fun.

That's why we put out the wine because we wanted to make you feel like it was fun even if it was fun without the wine.

Happy hour without wine. She's just happy, she's just joyous. Okay, your book, tell me again, comes out January 30th, 2018.

Okay, which, golly, it's gonna come quick, honey, let me tell you. Yep, it's gonna come quick. It's gonna, and from here on out, you thought the big thing was writing it, it's all the other milestones because there's gonna be a deadline every month.

Okay, good, that's what I want to ask ask you. So you, because you, I started them and I forgot. So you have the, the retreat center, the manuscript. Well, just kind of a lot more. The manuscript is turned in. You are in the middle of edits. What's next? Do you know what's next? You're doing your events.

I'm doing my events.

What's next?

I don't have a what's next after that.

Okay.

I have some dreams. I think we all, I hope I'm always looking at what's next, right? Sometimes I think, how long can we do the Happy hour. A long time. You—

I mean, Oprah went for 25 years.

Did you listen to the podcast Making Oprah?

I have not. Did you have Oprah on your podcast?

Making Oprah the podcast was so good.

I need to listen.

But yeah, that's— you're right. Thank you.

She went for 25 years.

I got 25 years in me.

You have a lot of things in you. I'm absolutely sure about that. We're all trying to figure out how you do it all in this one last year. But it just— I mean, you just are living passionately. About the things that God has put in front of you, and it sounds like you have— well, I know you too, just off of this. So you work really, really hard to put your family first, stay unplugged when it's time to be unplugged. I mean, you're just very intentional with your time, and I think that so many people don't realize how hard you have to work not to do the work, but how to be intentional about all the rest of your time so you have time to do the work.

It's so true. My husband Aaron and I just talked about this the other day, is that sometimes on the outside our life can look really busy. He travels some, I travel some, he has this, I have this, he's releasing a book, I'm releasing a book, it can seem like there's a lot, but I tell you where you can find me most Monday through Friday is at the baseball field with my kids, dinner around the table with my kids. We're not gonna come to your event, I can't come to your happy hour, I can't do dinner on a Thursday night, like we really don't do a lot of stuff so that you can— so that we're with our people. So when I'm— because when I'm here today in Dallas, you know where I'm What I always say, people talk about like, how do you do it at all? You know what, when I'm in Dallas, you know what I'm not doing? I'm not feeding my kids dinner tonight. I'm not parenting. You know, I'm doing my job. And so I try really hard to be invested in those other ways.

Yeah, love it. Well, I love that you're invested in me too. I love it. Some of the happy, some of the yellow. This has been great.

Thanks for being here. So fun. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

If you stuck with me this long, long, I'm so glad you did, and I hope you enjoyed getting to know Jamie Ivey a little bit better, and of course, getting to know more about my cousin Wynter. One of the things we as her family know for sure is that when she made it into heaven's gates, she got a well done. Yes, she loved her husband. Yes, she loved her girls. But in addition to that, she had a ministry called For Girls Like You. That ministry is still going. Back when her girls were smaller, she created a magazine with them in mind. For her girls and for their friends. It's a magazine aimed at tween girls ages 8 to 12. If you've never heard of that and you have a tween girl or you know of a tween girl, check her out, forgirlslikeyou.org. You'll be glad you did. Now, if you haven't subscribed to my YouTube channel and you don't want to miss any more videos like this, be sure and subscribe. And while you're at it, click on the bell so that every time there's a new video, you'll be notified. Thanks for watching the show.