S 2 Episode 8: Vivian Mabuni

Vivian! Okay, tell the whole world how to pronounce your last name.

It's Mabuni.

And what kind of name is that?

Mabuni is an Okinawan name.

Which is Japanese.

Which is Japanese. So there's something for Nona. Yes, points for you.

Because you know all black people look the same, or some people think, and then I'm sure all Asians look the same, but my heritage is Chinese. You're Chinese, your husband is?

Half Okinawan, Japanese, Portuguese, and Hawaiian.

Oh, that's fun.

Oh, so handsome.

That's great. Just so we have context for who you are and what you've been doing with your life, so you're married, you have children?

Yes, I do. Married 27 years, 3 kids, 25, 22, and 17.

Okay, so you're at the end wave of the whole primary raising, because parenting really never ends.

It never ends.

But you're at the end of that, and you love Jesus.

I love Jesus.

Are you raised as a believer?

No, grew up in a culturally Buddhist home.

Okay.

And came to Christ in high school, sat next to a girl in my math class, and I watched her transform, and it was just notable. She just kind of had this glow about her, and that started me on a spiritual journey, and I trusted Christ in high school.

How did that go with your family?

You know, they— I think I grew up in Boulder, Colorado, which is very open-minded spiritually, so there are a lot of weird granola-type things that go on in Boulder.

Crunchy people.

Yes, I love it.

I'm a crunchy person in some ways.

I feel very comfortable in Portland, at Berkeley. I was born in Madison, so there's a theme.

There's a theme.

Austin is—

'Cause now you're in California.

Yeah, Southern California. So, yes. So anyway, I— my parents, I think they just I just thought it was a phase I was going through because, you know, teenagers, they go through phases. So, you know, it's going to be cars and music and perfumes and God. And religion.

Yeah.

So then my dad went through a midlife crisis in high school after I'd come to Christ, and he did the sports car, and then he came home with a perm.

Oh!

Yes.

Oh, okay.

Yes, that's another story for another time. And then he He— it was crazy. He, after— right before my senior year of high school, he decides that we were going to move. And it wasn't across town or to another state. We were moving from Boulder, Colorado to Hong Kong. And that is what God used in my life because all the securities were taken away and I had to be faced with if I was really going to follow him. And so I kind of had my little tirade.

And how old were you? I was 17.

So I remember sitting on the edge of my bed in our flat in Hong Kong and I said, "Lord, I am just so mad at you for allowing this drama in my life." Yeah, exactly. "But in my heart of hearts, I really want to know you and I need a church, I need a youth group, I need Christian friends, and if you do that, I'll give you my whole life." Was it easy to find? Well, crazy enough, I mean, I actually gave him the ultimatum, like, if you do not do that, I'm never talking to you again.

Because I mean in America you hear things about what is easy or not easy in different parts of the world.

Well, okay, so one of the barriers for me was I grew up speaking Mandarin, and they speak Cantonese in Hong Kong. Same characters, completely different pronunciation, so there's no way of communicating.

And so you're like, I want to know you, but I'm trying to speak the language here, so if I find a church, I need to have— Yes, right.

Yes, and in God's Graciousness. He had us attending— I was attending a Catholic girls' school, which I should have never gotten into, but again, that's another God story. And right down the street was an Alliance Missionary Church with a youth group, and there were actually crew staff that were embedded in that church trying to get into China at the time. And I got grounded in my faith and was discipled there, learned about the ministry of the Holy Spirit, started leading people to Christ in my little Catholic school. I mean, it was just unbelievable. And God met me in Hong Kong.

Okay, so you got, you got a chance to know the Lord, and God provided the ability for you to grow in your faith. And I love your prayer because so many people think they have to know something, they have to have something in order for God to move in their life. And really, it's as simple as just saying, "I really want to know you, and I don't know how to understand the Bible. I don't know how to grow my faith. I don't know what the rules are. I don't know what I'm supposed to know." You know, and they think because if they don't have something, they don't have the Christian family, they don't have the Christian background, they don't have the experience, or because they had so much junk in their past that, "I want to be but I'm disqualified? And it's just that simple. I just want to know you, and I need you to help me out. And he answers those prayers.

Oh, I think he's delighted to do so, because I think when we have a posture of surrender, where it's like, Lord, you can take and you can give, my hands are open, my life is open.

My life is open. He's like, ooh, plenty of room for me to deposit.

Oh my goodness, yes. And really, the adventure begins. And it was after that point of saying, "I'm all in," that the Bible became real and started to make sense. Because I tried reading it on my own and I couldn't figure any of it out.

But it's the Holy Spirit that gives.

It's the Holy Spirit. And so really just having, not just being, you know, having the Spirit in us, but being filled with the Spirit changed everything. And then there's such an intimacy of walking day by day knowing God was answering prayer and involved in every little detail of my life. It was just so thrilling. So Hong Kong, I wanted to make sure that that experience wasn't just unique to that place and that church and that youth group, as amazing as all that was. And I was starting, I was going to go to college. I only applied to one school because I didn't know. I was in Hong Kong, so I applied to the University of Colorado back in Boulder again, and I asked my my youth pastor, like, how do I, how do I keep walking with God? And he said, you need to take time to plug into a church and find a campus group like InterVarsity, Campus Crusade, which is Cru now, Navigators, like a really solid group of believers to walk with you. And I got involved with Cru day one and ended up majoring in Cru, minoring in marketing, but I just loved that part of my day. So I've been on staff with Cru for 30 years now.

So for people who are like, "Okay, I've never heard of Cru," they can find out more because they're going, "Oh my gosh, I have a teenage kid who's going to college." So what's the web address for Cru, just so they can—

Cru.org.

Cru.org. So if you've got teenagers or college-age kids and you want to give them a recommendation for how to plug into connection spiritually— Yes.

Most major universities— we were on staff at Berkeley and at UCLA, and I got phone calls from aunties and grandmas like, Could you stop by my son's dorm room, but don't tell them I called you or whatever. So that's a little bit awkward. You just keep praying.

Yeah, it is the virtual helicopter parenting. You're doing it, but you're not really doing it.

So we're trying to give space or whatever.

So you came back US at that time and then you've been here since then?

Yes.

Okay. So because we were talking about Hong Kong, so y'all, you know, we live in a world where there are certain things you're just not supposed to say. Say and certain things you're just not supposed to ask, but we just need to get over ourselves sometimes. So I just want to know, cause I just saw Crazy Rich Asians on a plane. Yes. I mean, that's like people say it, somebody would say to me, so you have seen Coming to America, right?

And of course Black Panther.

Oh yeah. I got to update it. Black Panther.

Come on. It's updated.

You forgot that you have to do it and then you do this.

Yeah.

You have to.

Yes. Oh my goodness, seriously.

Listen, that was the— Crazy Rich Asians was the best movie ever. Yes, yes, yes. Okay, so—

Let's talk about it, because I want to talk about it.

Well, I was watching it thinking, I was thinking, this must be what people feel like if— it's interesting because I don't look at movies with white people in it and think about, oh, is this what it's really like? But I know that sometimes when people watch Black movies, they're thinking, okay, is this what it's really like? So I found myself doing that with that movie. Is this what it's really like?

Right. Yeah. All of us buy hotels.

Well, I mean, just culturally and the grandmother and the permission thing and the respect.

Absolutely.

All of that. Yes.

Yes. They did a great job.

Yeah, they did it. They did a great job. So on this whole thing about my timidity with even asking you about that movie, you have a heart for diversity and I think it's an interesting conversation for you and I both as minorities.

Yes.

Because there's lots of black and white conversation about diversity and the importance of that and, you know, how we commit to connecting in the body of Christ.

Mm-hmm.

But why is diversity important to you?

Oh.

I'm saying that as if it shouldn't be. You're right. But you know what I'm saying.

Well, I think it's interesting growing up in majority white culture as, for me, as an Asian American. And this is true, I think, of Latina, my Native American sisters. There's a Why it's important is because there are parts of my story that are gonna benefit the body of Christ, but when they're not heard or seen, I think everyone misses out.

But here's what's interesting to me. Now I'm gonna sound, maybe to some of y'all, like a total idiot, but—

She's not an idiot.

This is what I wanna just say. In my head, African Americans, Hispanics, Hispanic Americans, that I get that. I did not think that about Asian Americans.

And so tell me why.

Because I think that there are so many things maybe as a Black American that I hear about what happens to us Hispanics in the media and all these different kinds of things that are villainizing and degrading. And while I know that there are opinions that people form about a lot of different cultures, I don't know that I see it the same way. Interesting. So, yes, and so, now I see them like, okay, total, you know, what we're not supposed to do, but we do it. Okay, like Asians are smart, Asians go to school, the whole Tiger Mom thing. So if they show up in an environment that's mostly white, even though they're different, there's a different acceptance of Asians than there is of Blacks or Hispanics or other. So the whole idea of thinking of diversity bigger than outside of my color is interesting to me and I'm curious why. Yeah, so now that I've given you all my goods, so go ahead and tell me why I'm so jacked up in my thinking.

No, so some of it is awareness and some of it is education. So for Asian Americans, you talk about not until 1965 1965 did they lift the immigration ban. So it was illegal for Chinese, it excluded, the only people group excluded from being able to immigrate to the United States of America, and that formally lifted until 1965.

So when you got here, you weren't necessarily welcome. No. Right.

And the only people that were welcome at that point were educated scholars and businessmen.

Which is why we think y'all are all smart.

Right. And Asian is so broad.

It is, I know.

And there's so many cultures that that are represented there, but in the media, and this is why Crazy Rich Asians was a game changer, is that Asians are pretty, they all are either these crazy like tiger women, dragon lady villains, everyone just kung fu. So the fact that no one did kung fu in Crazy Rich Asians did not, hmm, I didn't think about that. And now, and this is our joke now, because it used to be that the Black guy was the first to die, like whatever group. And now it's been replaced by the Asian guy. So if you watch any movie, it's the Asian guy that goes first.

I always thought it was the white guy. Yeah. Cause I'd be sitting in the movies and we'd be like, listen, the Black people are running and it's only the white guy who's sitting around. So it's even funny how we see it. Yeah.

How we see it. So Asian. So I think that there, there's definitely that. And there's the Japanese internment camp. There have been so many, just discrimination against Asian Americans throughout the history of the United States of America. The Chinese were here with the Gold Rush, came just like the rest, built the railroad, and then when the final picture shows, there's not a single Chinese American in the photo. So there's just— learning the history is so important. And we all have to do—

we all have to do that, our own —And other people to understand.

—And so even in the circle that we are running in as authors and speakers, there has never been an Asian American woman speak main stage at Women of Faith in the history of Women of Faith for all time. And it takes an Asian American woman to say that to even have people go— —To even notice. —And as people sit in that and they go, "Huh," and passion and catalyst at any of the larger conferences. I think IF Gathering honestly is the first time they've had an Asian American woman speak main stage, and not just emceeing or being on a panel or speaking on racial reconciliation even, but teaching the Bible, doing those kinds of things. So that changes and normalizes the storyline and the narrative, and that's why Crazy Rich Asians was so significant to me as an Asian American because here you have beautiful people people falling in love, dealing with family dynamics, but it was so incredible as an Asian American to see the food and see people using chopsticks and folding the dumplings and that being so normal. So to me, that was— I can't— I have so many friends that just came out of the movie just in tears because they felt seen for the first time. Wow. And it wasn't— and again, and the choice of the director to not go with Netflix but to stay major motion picture, even that, because perception is reality. And when you do something really well and you have the right music and the right cinematography and the right costumes and the right design and all that, it all matters. The quality matters. And so, yeah, we—

that's like the Black Panther thing. But even for believers, it's like like Priscilla in War Room. It's like, "Ooh, okay." As Christians, it's a good movie that represented us not in a, "Okay, you know, we're all gonna be great." Right. "We're gonna—" Right. You know, but like, "Okay, this is jacked up." Yes. You know, and I'm having to exercise my faith in this movie and show what that actually looks like.

And I think that in the same— so for the non-minorities that are watching, In the same way when we see Christians portrayed in media negatively, and we kind of go, "Ooh." Yeah, because we're like, "Oh Lord, the Christian movie's coming out." I know, oh no, please. We need a good Christian movie, please Jesus. Because we identify. In the same way as an Asian American, every time that comes up, I'm like, I feel the same thing. So to be portrayed positively and with humor and all of that, it's just a game changer. Walk with our heads held a little higher. And that's really— and I felt the same way actually as an Asian American with my Black brothers and sisters when Black Panther came out. It was the same, like, thank you because this country is actually wealthier than Tony Stark and the whole group. I mean, you know, T'Challa, he has it going on. And the humility that he— how he presented himself with dignity, and that to me was so beautiful. And I think having a picture of an African country, even though it's not real, but just free of any colonization, any, you know, just being able to be all the colors and the beauty and the music and all the textures. That was so— it just ministered to me. I think that that is a picture of who God is. Yeah. And all that beauty. Well, one of the things—

I mean, there are a lot of conversations that happen that I'm I listen and watch a lot of them and hear. I know where I am, what offends me, what doesn't bother me, which is different. You know, all Black people are not the same. Sure. And what works for me does not necessarily work for someone else. What works for them doesn't necessarily work for me. But one of the things that I think is so important, which is why I think this conversation about diversity is unique, is because we just need to have the conversations. And the diversity conversation, connection conversation, cultural conversation, conversations is not just a black and white conversation. And in the body of Christ, we not only are black and white and Asian and Hispanic and Native American, we're also, as your husband is, a combination of those things.

Mixed race, and that's our future.

Yeah, that's our future. And we're not going to get any better in growing in community in the body of Christ if we're not willing to have the conversations and ask the questions we're scared to ask.

And I think that that's really where having relationships with people that were close enough to be able to say, "Okay, this might be— it might be offensive even, but can you help me understand?" And then there's an appreciation, and then I turn away and I'm in other conversations where I can advocate accurately.

Yeah, exactly. So it's wonderful. Okay, so one big part of your story is that you're a You're a cancer survivor. Yes. Talk about what kind of cancer you had, how long ago, and then I want to ask you a few questions about that.

So, 10 years ago I was diagnosed with breast cancer. The amaz— well, several things that are significant about that. One was that I had been leading a women's Bible study prior to my diagnosis, and we had a group of women that were new to the Bible, new to everything. Their kids had come to Christ through our Vacation Bible School at church, and now they wanted to learn about God and grow in their faith. And so I had the privilege of meeting with them, and we would meet, and as women do, we started to grow closer, trust each other. And one of the women shared about the Asian Martha Stewart in her neighborhood. And so this woman just was perfect. Her home was always immaculate. The food she made was beautiful, the presentation. Her kids were perfect. Everything about her life was flawless. And then this Asian Martha Stewart was diagnosed with breast cancer. And people wanted to come along and help, you know, rally around her. She was not a believer and she just refused. She just said, "You know what? That's fine. I'll be fine." And she started going through her treatments. She could not hold her perfect world together. And then tragically, this woman took her own life. Oh wow. Yeah, and she left behind her husband and her two kids. And I was— we were meeting at a food court at the time, and I think it's like those movies when everything freezes, but God had my complete attention in that moment because it was like, "Viv, you do not know this Asian Martha Stewart, but you are just like her. You like to be the strong one. You like to help others, but you have difficulty letting people in. And I just had to nod in agreement. So I promised the Lord, I just said, God, if anything like this ever happens to me, I purpose right here—

You gotta watch those promises. I know, I know.

Right here, right now, I will let people in. And this is in October, and 3 months later, 3 days before Christmas— He said, let me test that. Yes, I received the call, you have cancer. And so that that event, it was the Lord going before me in Deuteronomy, where I really think that that changed everything for me. So my cancer journey was even more than the diagnosis and the treatment and all of the chemo, losing my hair, and radiation. It's this— Your hair looks great. Thank you. I have hair again. I'm very grateful every day for hair. But really the invitation to allow community to walk with us us through the difficult times. I have two sons and a daughter, and I'm so thrilled to finally have a daughter because, you know, it had been just— I was outnumbered. And so I had, from the time I brought her home from the hospital, putting her down at night, you know, just praying night after night, "Lord, would you bless her with good friends and good mentors and a well-tended soul?" Over and over, that was my prayer. Say that again. "Would you bless her with good friends, good mentors, and a well-tended soul." And I prayed that because I knew that there's nothing I can protect my daughter from as far as the hard things that will happen. Because it's life. It's just life. But with those three things, she'll make it. Guaranteed.

So, first of all, I think it's really great that you prayed for great mentors because I think a lot of moms operate under the impression that they're supposed to give their daughters everything, which is a lot of pressure. Yes. To feel like you're supposed to give your daughters everything, because you cannot. Right. So for you to recognize that and actually pray for that, I love that. But really, a well-tended soul, what does that mean?

Mm, that is, I think, one of the most essential questions a well-tended soul, to me, my understanding, I think it was John Ortberg that wrote in the beginning of his book, Soul Keeper, Soul Keeping, that book, he tells the story of this little town in the Alps and there is the keeper of the stream, so this river that brought water to the townspeople and this man removed the debris and kept the water clean and then the little town was doing budget evaluations and thought, "We don't even see this little man, you know, why do we pay him anything? Let's cut that out." Cut the keeper. And the keeper left, and then over time the people got sick and the animals left, and, you know, this was the result of not having the keeper of the stream. So the soul is our soul is like the stream and we are the keeper. And we are the keeper. Yeah. So Welton is so— Isn't that a beautiful—

Beautiful, I'll have to pick that book up.

Just that first chapter, that first—

Because people really understand that they are supposed to care for their soul, they understand that high-level concept, but when you start talking about the practical mechanics of what that means, so that's a very good, you know, visual picture of the fact that I'm responsible for everything that flows into me, to pay attention to what's in it that I need to remove or to stand guard against.

And so, crazy enough, I wrote a little bit about that in here too.

Ah, 'cause you've got two books.

I've got two books.

The first one was about your breast cancer story.

Yes, it's called Warrior in Pink.

Which is called Warrior in Pink, so if you have that struggle right now or if you know of someone who who does pick that up. But this book is coming out July 9th, and it is called Open Hands, Willing Heart: Discover the Joy of Saying Yes to God. And I think that's a—

I have the Keeper of the Stream in here too.

You do? Well, here's the thing, because if joy is a part of soul keeping, which it is, people really struggle with this idea of what it means to cultivate joy. And because that's something I talk a little bit about in terms of taking care of your soul. What does it mean practically to discover and cultivate joy? Because, you know, out of the issues of the heart flow, you know, all the things. All the things.

So how do you do that? That's a great question. Because there's a difference between joy and happiness. There is. And I think happiness has everything to do with our circumstances and joy is a fruit of the Spirit that doesn't necessarily match our circumstances. So how do we cultivate joy? I think, again, Jesus is our source without it being Christian talk. But when I think about vine and branches in the Christian life and in the Christian world, we tend to see blessing as the fruit, as the blessing. Like, and the more blessings and the fruit we have, it's— we, we're looking there, which fruit is a natural byproduct of the abiding. And the real blessing is Jesus. And as we abide in him— so I was— okay, so this is my little, um, I was in Starbucks, you know, preparing a talk and had one of those little moments, probably caffeine-driven, but it's like the way to The way to increase your yield is to increase your yield. Mmm, that's good.

Did that get in the book?

I hope so, I can't even remember.

Because you know, sticky statements, you know, sometimes they come and sometimes they don't.

And I'm like high-fiving myself because there's no one to high-five with me at Starbucks, but I was like, yes! The way to increase your yield is to increase your yield.

Well, one time, you know, the Lord was just saying, whatever the thing was that I wanted that felt to me like a gift, What he said to me is, "You're upset because you wanted the gift and you didn't get it, but the thing is, is that in your journey, I was the gift." Yes! I'm the gift. Yes! Everything else is extra, it's a blessing, it's an overflow. That's right. But whatever difficult or hard or even right in your life, these little fruity blessings that everybody walks around talking about, Yes. The journey there with me is the gift. One of the other things we were talking about a little bit before we started taping, just a little joy thing, which happens because in the body of Christ we can have this and it's great. We were talking about clothes. I was talking about how cute you are. Thank you. And you were like, "Great, I didn't do it." No, zero. But you have a posse of people who like to dress you like the Barbie doll.

I like a Barbie doll, and really it is a— it's a— it's a—

I can totally commiserate with that. I don't like getting dressed.

No, and I would never pick out a job in Asia.

Adam and Eve screwed up a lot of things, but the main thing they screwed up was us having to put on clothes.

That's right. Golly. But if we stuck with figs, at least I would know. Yeah, it'd be like a uniform.

Can we have a segment of society that agrees to wear uniforms? But you know what? As adults.

Okay, so I did— in Hong Kong, I was at a Catholic girls' school, which required hard uniforms, and the creativity and the—

People still found a way. Oh my goodness, yeah. So you would still feel like you're the blonde.

Oh, totally, yes. With the uniform.

I'm gonna lose no matter what. So that's why you need a posse. But that joy from community, which I know you're committed to not just in a peer-related sense, but in a discipleship-related sense, because you were discipled. Yes. You get joy from pouring into people, from having people pour into you. That's right. Which kind of goes back to what you were saying about your breast cancer story. Yes. Which is, am I open to community? Yes. Am I open to community? Why were you not really open before? Were you just not wired that way? Were you closed off? Oh, that's a good question. Did you just feel like, I have my two friends and I don't want anymore? Like, why was that even a thing that came to mind?

I think there are a couple things for me. One is culturally even. In Asian culture, there's there's such a high value of being aware of others. There's, you know, just you don't want to put anyone out, you don't want to rock the boat, you don't want to stick out. There's a strong collective sense so that you just don't want to mess anything up. And so to trouble someone is just, it's just, it's better to, it's okay, it's okay. So there's that very strong cultural piece in that. There's also my pride. If I'm really honest, there's my pride. I just like to— which we all have to varying degrees. And I think I found security helping people because I could control that. Does that make sense? Yes. Learning to be a gracious receiver requires— you're not in control. No. And the humility and faith it requires to trust that when people are helping, they really— and to receive. To receive that and it really brings them joy. And another example for me is I cannot balance my checkbook if my life depended on it. I don't know if the bank is ever in favor or against. I would just— I don't even know where the checkbook is to be honest. I cannot find it right now. So when I think about someone who is administrative and who knows how to do numbers or ironing or anything else that I am horrible at like keeping plants alive, I— because I detest it so much. I don't want anyone to have to do that because it's so hard.

It's yucky for you. Yes. So you put that on other people who would gladly—

yes. And so then I realized, okay, in the same way that it doesn't freak me out to speak in front of people, right? I don't freak out at all. It's actually really enjoyable. I feel like I'm doing what God made me to do, and I derive a tremendous amount of joy in that. But I have a lot of friends who would rather donate get a kidney than stand up in front of people. They would just pass out or, you know, so then I realized, you know, the body of Christ coming around together, there's great joy in displaying our gifting as we help other women.

Well, one of the biggest things I hear over and over again from women is that they struggle either to make friends or they want a mentor and they can't find one, or they want to fulfill this mandate of discipleship but they don't know what it actually means to do it. Right. So for the woman who says, okay, I I know that a part of cultivating joy in my life is cultivating community and relationships and allowing people in. Yes. But I don't know how to start. Yeah. Would you just succinctly speak to each one of those ways? I need friends. Yes. I need to figure out how to disciple other people because I'm supposed to be doing that. And, um, I really, uh, want to be discipled, but I can't find anybody to mentor me. Right. So kind of the peer thing, pouring down line, receiving from upline.

Yes, and you'll have to remind me again.

Yes, that's okay. I know I ask these long questions. Friendship, let's start with that.

Okay, yes. So I think friendship really can make— we don't have to make it complicated. So I'm picturing right now, speaking to you young moms who you can't even go to the bathroom by yourself right now, and your hair has been perpetually in a ponytail. Sometimes we think that we need to get to a certain place of cleanliness even in our home before we can invite anybody over. Over, and my encouragement to you is just invite them over, sit on the floor with the crushed Cheerios and Goldfish crackers, and just connect. And eat the crust of the peanut butter jelly sandwich if you need to, or the mac and cheese. The clothes are clean on the couch, just move them over and say, "Have a seat." Because that connection is so needed. Our souls and our— we were wired by God to be in relationship. So we don't need to clean up. Face to face. Face to face. And Instagram is a disservice because so many of our photos, we're taking them, but there's actually a dumpster right next to the brick wall in the alleyway.

We just fit what we wanted you to see in the square.

Right. And so we just need to normalize that life is messy and we don't need to wait for it to get perfect.

And we're messy. Yes. And we don't have to wait till we're perfect to let you in. Yes. Let you see me.

And so seriously, you might have a can of tuna fish in your cabinet somewhere and just pull it out and get some of those crackers.

This is all I have, but this is all we got.

But that connection time is so worthwhile. So to move through that not having to have it together before we have people in our home, or that our home has to look Pinterest perfect before we just open our lives that way. So it's a choice to do so. The other part with friendship, and we see this in Bible study all the time, when the first woman is willing to share what's really going on.

Yeah, somebody has to go first.

Someone has to go first, but then it breaks down.

It breaks the thing. And if no one in your life is going first, you go first.

You go first. You go first. So that would be my friendship piece. That's friendship. Okay, for those that are wanting to disciple others. Yes.

I'm supposed to be doing that? Yes. Because I feel like we have a whole generation of women who have walked with God, but who did— either did not learn what they don't know what it means, so discipleship feels like a very complicated thing. Or, or, because there's something that was so screwed up in their own life, they don't think they are the person who's qualified to disciple someone else, so they just don't.

Well, this is so timely because in a few hours I'll be sharing main stage about this very topic, so thank you for giving me an opportunity to practice. To practice. Right. But really, there are a few things, because we cannot disciple everyone. Yeah. So I would say selection of disciples is important. So prayer. Prayer.

Ask God, who is the one?

Who is the one? Yeah, ones. And I would say invest in women who are teachable and have a posture to learn. Invest in women who are available and are going to make the time. Invest in women who are faithful. They follow through. Invest in women who are full of faith. They have a heart for God. And they're younger than you in the faith. So that actually spells Taffi, which is really sweet.

I mean, I'm really giving you a chance to practice. You have a whole—

Okay, and Taffi with an I means inquirer of the Lord because Jesus spent an entire night in prayer before he selected his 12. Taffi in what language? In English. T-A-F-F-I, T-A-F-F-I. That's an English word? No, it's candy. Taffi.

No, I thought you just said it means inquirer of the Lord.

Oh, if you We use an I instead of the Y at the end of taffy, and taffy's not really a word with an I. I'm sorry, I'm just taking liberties with the English language.

I don't know that word. I'm like, is that Hebrew?

Is that Greek? I've never heard it. It's in some very strange Sanskrit language. Yes. No, I'm just, you know, it's in a slide, you know, up there. But the idea of inquire of the Lord. Gotcha. So selection of disciples is so important. The prayer piece is is so important. The adequacy that we have, like those that feel like unqualified, 2 Corinthians 3:5, not that we are adequate or sufficient in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God. And honestly, even if you're a brand new believer, you still know a little bit more than someone else. And so it really involves sharing.

You don't have to be a mile ahead to share something with anybody.

No, or a seminary, just what you know, you you share with others, and you keep growing, and then you keep sharing. And discipleship happens— I believe it's not linear, it's kind of a, a tapestry. Our lives will crisscross, and we will influence different women. They will influence us for varying amounts of time— weeks, months, years. Um, so I think, you know, watch for God. I think women over the age 50 have life experience that these younger women need and are thirsty for and are craving.

And craving, which leads us to the next thing. Yes, the women who are craving it. Yes. And can't find anybody, right?

So again, prayer. Yes. But I would say look around at the people in your church, you know, the, the kids that you think, wow, these kids are pretty amazing. Who's their mom? You know, whoever it is, I would It doesn't hurt, it doesn't have to be a commitment, just go out to coffee. And then if there's a good connection, then you can take it to the next level.

It goes back to even the friendship thing, taking the risk. Yes. Just take the risk and know that the person you ask may say, "No, I really don't have time for that right now." Don't allow that to stop you from asking someone else. Exactly. Just keep going at it, because what does the Bible say? If you seek, you will find. And often that doesn't mean sinking once.

That's right. So to not give up. You keep asking. And I think that, you know, what's amazing is God is at work behind the scenes and he is aligning the right people at the right time. And so that is a good and right prayer to be asking. Chances are someone else is also hearing the same thing from the Lord. So I have great faith that God will—

that God can put it together.

Yes, he does that all the time.

Okay, so I don't even want to ask you this question because I'm so sick of talking about it. Okay, what is your Enneagram number?

Oh, Chrystal Hurst, I am a reluctant 3 with a 2 wing. I just want to be any other number. All the other numbers look better to me than a 3.

Well, I'm a 3, so are you? Thanks a lot.

I'm sorry. Well, okay, the dark side of the 3 is really sad and scary to me.

What, what, what?

The dark side. Like when you're an unhealthy 3.

Meaning that they just try to please everybody all the time?

No, you just want to be a narcissist and you know, just kind of like be a diva. Well, yeah.

Cause sometimes I'm so, I am, I'm a little, I'm not a diva. I'm not a natural diva. I don't walk into a room and I'm, but given the right set of circumstances, I can quickly turn into one. Yeah. And it's just, I don't, I don't like it. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's not the heart of who I am. Right. But it is accessible to who I am given the right circumstances.

That is really true. So when I read about the healthy 3—

You've been reading about the Enneagram? Listen, I don't want to know. I don't want to know. No, no, no, no. Let's talk about— I'm learning by osmosis because everybody and their mother is talking about it. And I'm like, I'm good with the DISC. I'm good with the Myers-Briggs. I don't want anything. I don't want anything. I did the Lion, Otter, Beaver, Retriever. I don't want anything else. But everybody, somebody gave me a book. I'm like, oh God, I have to read about it.

No, it's, it's kind of, in order to stay relevant, you just need to stay up to date.

Don't try to give me a reason to have to.

Okay. No, no, no. But let's talk about the healthy 3. And this is actually what I derive the greatest joy. And this is what I see you doing right now, even with our interview. Is that a healthy 3 takes the opportunity to utilize whatever platform they've been given to platform others.

Yep, that's me too.

And we come alongside, and that I derive tremendous joy in. Yes, I do. Seriously, so when I see that part, I think, yes, I want to be that.

Well, if you ever see me being narcissistic, feel free to call me out. Okay. Be like, you're 3, but not on the good side.

It's the dark side 3.

Well, I think what's interesting about the Enneagram or the DISC or the Myers-Briggs or any of these personality tests. And I always tell people, don't go into taking these tests— StrengthFinders— looking for them to define you. Um, you, you will know. You will know. The God in you will agree with what part of what you're reading is a good description of you. What it does do is give you a jump start on language to, um, to help other people understand who you are. It also even for all the other people in your life who may not do the personality test thing, it helps you to understand them where they may not be able to communicate to you what they need, who they are, and why they operate the way they do.

I would say that's true of our children.

That's true of our children, yeah.

Our work situations, in team relationships, just having a framework to be able to navigate different— because we have a family of extroverts I have 3 extroverts and 1 introvert, and bless him.

Yeah, I have some introverts, but I have one extreme introvert, and the Evans family is not an introverted family, and one of my children is not just— because I'm an introvert, I'm on the line and I lean towards introvert the more I go out too, but he is extreme introvert, and I don't know what to do with that. Yeah, I didn't get any practice with that.

Yes, well, so our oldest son is like that too, and we would have like 80 people over, and I would go look for him, and he'd be under the staircase under a coat with his little Game Boy, and I'd lift it up, go, "Hey, how you doing, buddy?" Maybe 6 feet— "When are they leaving?" So my husband ended up giving up his office so that he could have his own room.

We have a spot in our game room. He has his Lego table. He's the only one of my kids that's ever had his own spot, but they still share a room. My boys still share a room because I'm like, why am I going to give you your own room and you're going to go to college and have a roommate? I'm just a mean mom like that. But I said, you know what, this kid though needs a space where no one touches his things and everybody knows this belongs to him.

And retreating to get recharged. To get recharged. And I think that that again is— so that's the plus of being aware so that— because if we had imposed our extrovertedness on him without valuing and appreciating—

Yeah, like something's wrong with you.

Right, that could be really damaging. And so thankfully we had a little bit of wherewithal with the introvert/extrovert part.

Now that we have Enneagram, we have a full knowledge base. That works in your family, that works in your workspaces, that works in your church, that works in discipleship, in friendship, just knowing just at a basic level what you're getting when you deal with the people that you love and that God loves too. That's right. Or that you may not love but you have to work with. Either way, the people that are in your sphere of influence and you want to understand honor God by handling those relationships well.

Absolutely, and I think that that gives us a more robust picture of who God is when we see more, not just people like us, but the ones that are not. Actually gives us even more.

Well, listen, I'm an African-American woman, she's an Asian-American woman, and we really, really like each other.

Seriously, we can keep going on.

We shouldn't, but we're also two women who, apart from the normal black and white conversation, get the importance of diversity, having the hard conversations, asking the hard questions, even the uncomfortable ones, and just saying, you know what, we get to know each other when we have conversations. So thanks for being with me, talking diversity, talking Crazy Rich Asians, talking Enneagram, and y'all, open hands and willing heart. Vivian Mabuni, if you don't know about her, you You need to know, and you need to grab a book. Thanks for being with us. Thanks for having me.