Shanterra McBride on Embracing Courageous Discomfort

Do you ever run from uncomfortable conversations? Well, listen, sometimes I do. Sometimes I confront them head on, but sometimes I'm just like, I don't want to have this conversation. And I'd rather get rid of the relationship than enjoy or face the discomfort of getting through the hard stuff to the good stuff. Often, not always, but often it's the uncomfortable conversation that will pave the way for real true community and being known. And if you avoid the discomfort, then you don't know true relationship and true community. I'm gonna be talking about this with my guest, Shanterra McBride today. If you're new here, welcome. My name is Chrystal Hurst, and this is the Sister Circle Podcast. You're watching or listening, and I'm glad you're here. I host this podcast so that a sister or brother can join me to talk about real stuff, y'all, cuz we need to know we're not the only one. We need to know we're not alone, and we need to have the practical input from other people to learn how we ourselves can live life well. Life is too short, y'all. It's not a dress rehearsal. So let's talk about this thing of discomfort, particularly in conversations, so we can live our lives better. Ready to hear it? Ready to see it? Here we go. Hey y'all, welcome back to the Sister Circle Podcast. And you know that it's all about me inviting sisters or brothers to join me to have real conversations about real stuff from a perspective of people who love God, but want to keep it real. Cause you know, sometimes people who love God just don't want to say the thing the way it really is. So I like to say the thing, and today I'm going to be saying the thing with my friend. I'm gonna give her God-given name. It's Shantera McBride, but throughout the conversation you're going to hear me say Shani because that's what I call her. Let me tell you a little story about Shani. We used to sing in a gospel choir together, and the thing about Shantera was Shantera believes in church. She believes in worshiping. Jesus Christ, she believes in giving him your best praise. And if that meant that Shantera was the soloist for a choir song, but in her pursuit of giving God the best praise, if that meant that she had to stop singing the solo— not only stop singing, turn her back to the audience, get off the mic, and start screaming her head off. Oh my God, that's what she would do. So we would just, we would just have to know that we're gonna have to finish the song without the soloist because Shani is like, church is about to happen and I don't owe y'all praise, I owe Jesus praise. So we would just have to let her go. And, and there were, there was, was it Jesus Hasten to the Throne, I Love You Lord from The Preacher's Wife, Whitney Houston's movie? On that particular song, oh my gosh, Shani, Shani would— she would be gone. We would just know that a part of the song is Shani is leaving us.

Oh my gosh.

And she would try, she would try to stick with it, but most of the time on that particular number, Shani would not be a part of us for long.

No.

So you need to know that Shani is a— she's a lover, she's a lover of Jesus Christ. She's also very expressive. And she— okay, so Shanny and I also, um, I would say, I mean, COVID has kind of jacked things up, but, but we know that when we set a date on a calendar to get caught up, it's gonna be a 3 or 4 hour— yeah, breakfast, lunch, dinner, something— and we're not going to leave until we're done. And we cover all the ground, we catch up on all the things. Um, and so we are overdue. We've discussed that and decided that we're overdue. Um, but this is kind of a midway catch-up, so I get to catch up with Shani while I introduce you to her, or actually reintroduce you to her because she has already been on the podcast. We'll make sure we link up to those in the show notes for this episode. Um, Shani had the gift— we both had the gift of being on a video podcast, one of my first, with my cousin Wynter, where we were talking about what does it look like to be marvelous? Shani has done so many different things, but she has a heart for women, people, but young girls. She is the founder of Marvelous University, and that's a social enterprise that offers life coaching, success planning, and leadership development for girls and young women. She is the author of a book called Love Your Jiggle: The Girl's Guide to Being Marvelous. She is an author, a preacher, a speaker, and teacher. You know, I think preacher is just wonderful and hilarious all at the same time because, y'all, she went to my church, honey. And in my church, I don't know that we use the word preacher. Teach, share.

Yes.

But like I told you, Shani knows how to praise him, and she also had a church life before My church. And she said some church lives after. Yep, my church. So anyway, Shani is, um, for the development of, um, women in particular, especially young women. But she has a whole nother thing that she has become passionate about and a book that she's written. I want to talk about that, but first I wanted to have you get to know Shanny a little bit more because since the last time we have, um, been together, um, there's some other things that have developed in her life. We, we have a whole pre-conversation that'll probably be bonus episode material, so Inner Circle members, make sure you grab your bonus content because we had a whole conversation about her being comfortable at home. She is in her late 40s and has chosen to be comfortable at home. As many of us have wanted to come back home during COVID But, but another thing that you've been going through, walking through, is a health diagnosis. Why don't you tell me a little bit about what that is and when you got it?

So about a year and a half ago, I started having tingling. And you know how when your arm falls asleep, And so multiply that times like 1,000, and it was happening the left side of my head all the way to the left side of my body. Just tingling, just tingling. And I go to a church, St. Paul United Methodist Church, so full of senior saints. And they were like, you just stressed. And I'm like, y'all, I know stress and this ain't it.

Right.

Because it was just— and it would— sometimes my words would slur, sometimes I would stumble. And so I went to my primary care doctor. I described what was going on. And so he was like, Shantara, I believe you. And I bawled. I cried so hard just from him saying that. And I think there were a couple of things. I think health care, I think being a Black woman, I think just because it's invisible, you can't see it. So somebody, you know, with some degrees and, you know, saying, I believe you, like that just—

why did you come in to that appointment? Because, because the fact that that doctor said that to you implies that your posturing, even as you explained your symptoms, was like you had to prove— prove, yes, that there's really something wrong with me. So, yeah, so was it because of other people being dismissive that made you feel like— what made you come in postured? Like, you already made the appointment to see the doctor, you know something's wrong. Like, what made you communicate?

Because you can't see it. And so I, I kind of felt like, um, I didn't know if I would be believed. And I think just hearing other women, especially Black women, talk about when they give birth or when they have issues going on and just not being believed. And so I really felt like, oh gosh, you can't see it. So is he going to believe me? Is he going to take me seriously? Even though I don't have a history of hypochondriac, so I'll make up— but in my head it was this like, oh no, is he going to believe me? And so when he said, Shantara, I believe you. I don't even— all I did was start crying because I was like, I know you can't see it. And even while I was there, I was like, I'm having an episode right now. Like, I can feel the tingling. And so he did the, the, um, the test where, you know, he held up two fingers. He said, I gotta do these tests, it's gonna be crazy. Um, he said, but just humor me. I was like, okay. So I had to follow his fingers, you know, stuff like that. And so then he's like, We need to go either neurology or rheumatology. Those are two routes we need to go down.

Like, both of them sound very scary.

Both of them scared me. And I was just like, okay, at that moment I was also— I was scared, but I was also like, we need to find out what's going on. And so went both routes. The rheumatologist was like, mm, you don't have a problem with this. This is not for me. You don't need to see me. And but I hadn't had the neurology appointment yet. Finally got in to see my neurologist. He did a bunch of tests. One test, it's where you test the nerves. You basically put two electronic things on my body to see how my nerves respond. Anyway, he's like, "We need to have you do an MRI." I was like, "Okay." He said, "Are you claustrophobic?" I was like, "I don't think so." No, you know, no. Everybody kept asking. His nurse, when I scheduled the MRI, listen, I'm claustrophobic. I didn't know it until I got in that machine. What? Chrystal Hurst, when I got in that machine, I was like, oh no, oh no. It was like, uh-uh. And I was good, honestly, until they put the thing over my face.

Yeah.

And that's when I was like, I'm not going to be able to do it. I'm just— I'm not gonna be able to do it.' And they give you this little buzzer, you know?

You can, um—

before a homegirl got out the room!

And like I said, there is Shani, and then there is the expressive dramatic Shani. So I could only imagine what that whole situation looked like.

Couldn't do it. Couldn't do it. And then trying to convince myself that I can do it. I was like, it's okay, it's okay. So she would pull me out and she was like, you know what, you can get some medicine. I said, no, no, no, no, I can do it. Okay, we can do it, girl. Put the thing back over my— nope, can't. After all the— oh, the second time I went with my, with my, um, drugs was wonderful. But my tech, his name was Joshua. And because I was already feeling kind of good from the medicine, I was like, "Your name is what?" He said, "Joshua." I was like, "Joshua, you may not understand this, but you are an answer to prayer." I said, "You being here, you being here right now is letting me know God is with me." And I know, and he was looking at me like, okay, he's looking like the church lady has arrived. Listen, I'm gonna let her—

yeah, you like— he was like, I'm gonna let her have her moment, have her.

And he did. And, and he was so kind. And he gave me one of those bolsters to put them— he said, do you want a bolster for your legs? Yes, Joshua. He said, do you want to listen to music? Yes, Joshua. And he was like, okay, what do you want to listen to? I said, Joshua, I want to listen to gospel. He said, I can do that. I said, thank you, Joshua. Like, I was so— because it was 3 and a half hours. It was 3 and a half hours of being at the school. And long story short, I was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis.

And so when, when the doctor tells you— well, before they told you, did they know what they were looking for? Like, did they say, we think it's multiple sclerosis, but we want to confirm? Okay, so The first time you hear it is when we know for sure based on the test that this is what it is. So he says, you have multiple sclerosis. And you thought, you said, what did that look like? Were you in the doctor's office by yourself?

Yeah. And it was COVID. So I was on Zoom with my doctor. We were on a virtual appointment. So I was in my office and, um, He said, well, he said, you have multiple sclerosis. And the first thought was, oh no, I am going to be in a wheelchair and I'm not going to be able to move my body. Because the first person I thought about was Annette Funicelli, who used to be on the Mickey Mouse Club before we were born, and she was the only person that I thought of with multiple sclerosis. Like, I did not think of the singer Tamia. I didn't think about Montell Williams. I didn't think about anybody but Annette Funicelli. And so I said to him, I was like, no, I have to take my niece on a safari when she's 12. And he's like, well, how old is she? I was like, she 2. The point is, I got plans. Like, this is not— and he said, well, you can still take on a safari. This is not gonna interrupt. And I was like, no, no. And he said, well, I— Shantara, you can still live a full life. He said, now I will tell you, it's not curable, but it is treatable. And I was like, no, no. And I was angry. So I was in that mix of being angry, but then also I love Jesus. So it was like, okay, let me Okay, Lord.

Not be too angry for too long. Yeah.

But I was angry. I was, it was such a disruption to what I thought was going to be my life. It was, I was so irritated, but had to spiritualize it real fast because also had to tell my parents and I had to tell people.

Yeah, you can't be on the, you can't be emotionally fragile when you tell them. Because they're going to be emotionally fragile. Yeah.

And they're going to respond. And, and then I thought about my brother who has kidney failure, so he's already— so I didn't need my mother having her two children, um, broken, you know. And so I really felt like, okay, and let me get myself together. And I waited before I told them because I had to be You know, you had to find your way to some level of acceptance. Wasn't there. But I, but I—

how long did you wait? How long did you wait?

I, I mean, it was that day, but it was like a few hours. My mom knew I had a doctor's appointment, you know, so, um, but I did not come out of my office and like, okay, I need to tell y'all something. It was like come out of my office, let me get some water, maybe some chips, go back to my office because I'm— I was writing a book. And, you know, so I was like, I don't have time to really— I don't have time to take care of her. I don't have time to take care of me. We're on a deadline, so I just need to move. I need to move on. And so when I told her, I remember telling my parents, I was like, "All right, so I have multiple sclerosis." I said, "And the doctor said it is not curable, but it is treatable. And the Lord can trust me with this. I really believe that this is going to be just a testimony." They were like, "Okay." I was like, "So everything is fine. We got to find the right treatment and it is all good." And they were like, okay, you good? We good. Okay, great. And I remember going to my office like, what in the actual crap? What the crap? What the crap? What the crap? So I also, it's been hard.

How long ago did you get this diagnosis?

A year. It was a year in October.

And when you say it's been hard, what is it?

Girl.

The exploration of medicines and which ones work and which ones don't?

That. And because starting off taking— So two things. One, insurance and trying to get my medicine approved. I'm an entrepreneur, so there's no job paying for my healthcare. So when I go to the healthcare marketplace, I'm not looking for the one, you know, the platinum plan. I'm looking for the one I can afford every month, right? And so it took forever to get my medicine approved and like getting letters back from my insurance company like, oh, maybe you need to do a sleep study. I can sleep. This MS is not— and I know, I know that a lot of people with MS have issues sleeping and, you know, they do sleep studies. That's not my issue. And so the other part was learning what MS is, learning how it's individual. So that was also irritating because I can't just Google it and find a treatment that works for me because it worked for somebody else. So, so that was really irritating. The other hard part was I started finally, medicine was approved. It was one pill a day, 7 milligrams. And oh God, the other part about starting that, every nurse asked me, well, do you have children? I was like, no. Do you want children? No. And then I was like, well, why are you asking? Well, because this medicine has been known to affect the fetal heartbeat. I was like, okay. So we just want to— are you sure you don't want kids? And I was like, I'm pretty sure. And I want to start this treatment. So whatever. But I had to grieve the whole—

Even though you said, I don't, this is like a nail in the coffin. It's like, oh, for sure.

For real, because I'm going to start this treatment. I'm not going to keep feeling the way I feel and delay starting something that could possibly make me feel better. But every time there was a conversation and I was like, well, let me sit with this. No, I'm good. When can I start the treatment? And then even my doctor was like, "Well, I mean, we really haven't— the research hasn't done this with humans. We've seen this in rats." And I was like, "Thank you." Has the medicine—

have you gotten to a point now where the symptoms that brought you into the doctor that you've experienced, quote unquote, treatable with those? Do you feel like you're kind of on a—

I did it.

Got some stability.

Okay. So for almost a year and not even a year because it took a while for it. So for about 9 months, I felt like this one pill a day, 7mg, is working fine. And then I started noticing just the tingling again, just noticing my word slurring again, just noticing that. And I pay attention to my body. And so I was like, mm-hmm, something's going on. So another MRI. And basically the MS has progressed. And so I'm like, what does that mean? And he said, well, we see a few more lesions on your brain. We see a few more lesions on your spine. And Chrystal Hurst, ah, okay. Hearing that there are lesions—

it's not a nice word.

It was so hard. But I also knew I could tell him before the, you know, before the results, because I knew what my body was feeling like. I knew The fatigue. And again, reading and people talk about the fatigue. It's not regular fatigue. It's not like, "Oh, I just need to go take a nap." It is, "I've given all I can give and I'm out." I can't even pretend to try to get it together. And so, and I asked my neurologist, I said, so should I be scared? And he's like, oh no, no, no, no. He said, MS is all about finding the right treatment. He said, but it is not— it's not anything to be scared about. He said, it really isn't. He said, we just got to find the right treatment. And so now I'm— we looked at 3 different treatments. One is it's off the table because that treatment has been known to cause breast cancer. And so there's a certain gene that each of us have. And so we had to do blood work and study for that. And if I had that gene, then we definitely wasn't going to start that treatment. I have the gene. And so he was like, that doesn't mean you're going to get breast cancer. It just means that we, we don't put that medicine, that's not part of our decision making. Then there's another treatment where it's once a month and it's a shot once a month. And then there's a treatment where it's twice a month and each time is— I mean, not twice a month, twice a year. And it's basically 6 hours of infusion and they're putting the medicine in your body. So I asked him, I said, well, how many Black people have participated in the research? And I said, specifically Black women. And he was like, wow. He said, Shantara, you keep me on my toes. I was like, uh-huh. He said, I will email you tonight. And so, and he did. And thankfully, like, the MS website has also been very helpful in, and like, oh, that was another irritation thing though, because I didn't want to be a part of a community where, you know, they have walks and runs for stuff. You know, like, oh my God, I was so irritated. I was like, oh my gosh, I might have a t-shirt on. Like, I have MS, but MS doesn't have me. I was irritated, irritated. And I was slow to find community. I didn't want community. I didn't want to be a part of the community. Girl, and it has truly saved my life.

Like the community has.

Yeah, seeing other people, um, and people who look like me, and people talk about— because I will tell you now, um, nighttime is the worst time because it's like I don't have any other stimuli going on. It's just my body trying to relax, but the left side of my body is like, nah, chick, we're not going to relax. And it's like, it is painful. It is painful. And so trying to find a good position to sleep and try and seeing other people, hearing other people, because I went to a webinar and it was Black folks with MS and talking about the nighttime. And I just sat here and cried, just sat here and cried because I can't explain it to people. But hearing other people talk about it, oh my gosh.

Well, when you are experiencing pain and that language of your pain is not common language with everyone, finding language or shared experience with someone, I mean, we are not designed to live alone. Period. And so in life, you know, in church, that's like, get you a small group, because the shared thing is we love the Bible. Or maybe your small group is centered around a season of life, but the goal is find people who like what you like, love what you love, need what you need, or who are, who are where you are. So we do that for church, but what we don't realize is We need community, period. Period. So one of the greatest, like, I loved how you said it. I wrote it down. Community saved my life. Community saves all of our lives. And the thing is, we just have to, you know, we avoid it though, because we associate our need for community with someone else's journey. You know what I mean? Like, we don't want to be weak and need community. We don't want a label. That points us toward community. We don't want to admit that we have pain. Yeah. What draws us towards community has something to do with our need for it. And oftentimes we haven't made peace with the fact that we're in that club. You know, it's like I can see a woman who maybe says, you know, I'm home with kids. I have little kids now. I'm staying home. Dang it. I don't want to go and be one of them. One of those moms that has the playdate at the park because you've already decided in your mind who you think they are. Yeah. So once you realize, okay, I need community, that means I got to go to the park and be with these stay-at-home moms that have these kids with these strollers. I'm one of them. It's an identity issue.

It is.

So we do ourselves a disservice when we don't go after community because the community we need, we haven't already accepted our own identity for. So acceptance, self-acceptance, leads to the finding of the best community for us. But if we can't accept who we are and what we need, then we'll always be alone. So I, I think that that is so, yeah, so crucial. So, so where you are right now, are you back to a place where medicine is stabilized? Are you in the middle still of figuring out the current situation?

Um, okay, our— my doctor and I have landed on a treatment and it'll be the once a month shot. But my insurance is again, don't you know, the whole situation. Yes. And so I get these messages like from— because I have to get it through a specialty pharmacy and messages like, okay, we've received your request, we're just waiting on approval from your insurance. So they're basically— they're ready to send it to me in the mail. But my insurance hasn't, um, hasn't said yes, but I have a wonderful neurologist who's also, um, they know how to work, they know how to work their way around those things too. He said, he said, don't worry about it. I was like, okay. So just waiting. Um, Lord Jesus, waiting.

Well, so many things that you said, like, you know, one is I'm glad to talk to you about this. I mean, I know. That you had this diagnosis. Um, I have— you know, I haven't walked with you through the details of this, so this has been good for me to hear the details of this and to know where you are. But I think what's— there's so many things as you were talking like, you know, I'm trying to— you know my brain starts doing di-di-di-di-di-di-di-di and making all these connections. But the first thing is this book that You've most recently authored Courageous Discomfort. It's back there on your shelf. I'm looking at it and have it in my hand too. Cute cover, by the way. Super cute. Um, the copyright date is 2022, which means you were working on this book to release this book during the time where you're also walking through your MS diagnosis. Not only the acceptance of the diagnosis, but the work to come up with a treatment, finding a treatment, and then realizing that things have shifted and you need to revisit your treatment plan. But all this is happening while you're creating this work. And I think one of the things, when you were talking, this idea of discomfort, we started out our conversation before we officially kicked it off with living at home and is that comfortable or not. So now it's like living in your body, are you comfortable or not? Are things right or not? And then, you know, just societally, it's like, you know, even when you said you went to the doctor and you said, I was talking as if I assumed he wouldn't believe me.

Wouldn't believe me.

Right? Yeah. And even these conversations, these these conversations that we need to have, honest conversations. Um, your book that you've co-authored along with Rosalind Wiseman is about honest conversations about race. Um, and I know one of the most difficult conversations to have about race is when you're trying to explain your experience or a collective experience that you understand because of the color of your skin, and you're talking to people who either don't believe you or your posture, your assumption is that they won't.

Yeah.

You know, and how relieving it is if I'm talking to a friend, if I'm talking to someone that I know very well, or I'm talking to somebody I know who, uh, who shares my faith, but, you know, maybe we're at different churches or we serve in different parts of the community. And my posturing, my assumption that they either get it or don't get it, that they believe me or don't believe me, that they're willing to hear it or they're sick of hearing it.

Yeah.

And what that does to my posture and my delivery. Um, but obviously you've written this book, um, with Rosalind. Y'all are friends.

Yeah.

Um, now how are y'all friends? Why are y'all friends?

We met, um, when I lived in DC. So when I moved to DC, um, I had a wonderful boss, um, who said You are going to meet someone and you're going to go work for her. And I was like, yeah, whatever. That ain't true. And then they—

Yeah, the prophetic boss.

Yes. Yes. And what I didn't know is that he called Ross. I call her Rosalynn Ross. Okay. So he called Ross and was like, I've just hired somebody and y'all are going to meet each other and she going to leave this nonprofit. And I couldn't because I was an AmeriCorps VISTA. So I had to at least be there for a year. Anyway, he, um, and so I remember meeting Ross and I remember thinking like, oh, she started nonprofit, I want to do that. And I asked her for, you know, for coffee, and I told her, I was like, Greg of course have talked to both of us about each other, I want to start a nonprofit one day, what do you think? And she's like, don't do it. And I was like, what? She was like, it is the wor— don't do it, don't. I was like, oh, okay. And she was real honest, it was I've had people tell me that too.

Like, sidebar, it's like, I don't have one, but I feel like I should because there's so many things that I do that are ministry-oriented, that are from— for the public good, right? But when I've talked to people and I'm like, I have an LLC, like, I have a business structure, but I feel like I should have a nonprofit, they're like, why would you do that?

Don't do it. That's exactly— that was Ross. Why? Because in my mind I was like, well, I love I love young people.

Good people do nonprofits.

And, and I also thought, I can't do what I want to do and people pay me for it, so I need to be at, you know, I need to start a nonprofit. She's like, don't do it, don't, don't do it. And I was like, oh. And then like a year later she calls me, she's like, hey, do you want to work on my nonprofit?

She's like, I've already done it, so since I've done it, just come over.

Just don't.

And so you worked for her?

You worked for her? She was my boss. And, and because— and she called on a day that I was, I was getting ready to move back to Dallas, or so I thought. And I— because so, so much was going on at home that I thought if I moved back to Dallas, because, you know, I'm Jesus' sister, that none of this stuff will be happening. So it really— like, my brother had just been diagnosed with kidney failure, so he needed a transplant. One of my most favorite aunts had passed away, and I just figured if I was home, none of this will be happening. So I remember putting my car on Craigslist. I remember just telling my housemate at the time, I'm moving back home. I made all these plans. I quit my job. I made all these plans, and nothing was happening. Nothing. Nobody was getting my car. And my car was a good car. And nobody. And then Ross called me and I was like, because I've been praying and I said, Lord, if you want me to stay, you're going to have to do something because I don't quit my job. I don't quit, you know, like trying to sell my car. And then Ross called me and she's like, do you, do you, would you want to work in my nonprofit? And I was like, what do you do again? Because I had forgotten. And I was like, huh? And she told me and it was talking to people, young people. We had a curriculum and I would go into schools.. And I would talk about social hierarchies and how that is actually, you know, because people love to talk about bullying. And I was like, nah, it's the social hierarchies, it's the teasing, it's all that other stuff that escalates to stronger forms of violence. And I told her, I said, I've been praying. And Ross is Jewish. And she was like, okay. And I was like, you don't understand. I've been asking the Lord to give me a sign. You know, and I said, well, I have to go home for Christmas, but I'll come back. And yeah, I'll work at your nonprofit.

So, so you work together?

Yeah.

And y'all have been friends now for how long?

Well, we met in '98, so, okay, long time.

Yeah, so it's been a long time. Yeah. And so over working together and over your friendship, you've had the opportunity to have these open and honest conversations, um, which has led us here to this book. And what I can tell you is that, I mean, what it looks like to me, as you know, I've looked at it, read some of the chapters and made my way through some of this content. This is the conversation. This is not a one-way informative conversation. This is not a let me spell everything out for you. This is a we felt the freedom to have these conversations and realize that a lot of people don't. So let's make this easier for people to have the conversations that they need to have. And I hate what I'm about to say to a certain degree, but it's the truth. Okay. I often feel, and you know, I've, I've done enough interviews to know that there are different flavors of folks out there where I feel sometimes when I'm having conversations, I believe, and like, I even know that right at the beginning you said, um, you know, in my family, we don't often stumble over words when it comes to talking about race and racism. We don't dance around what we're trying to say, because there isn't usually a worry about saying the wrong thing. And I've noticed my family is like a lot of other Black families. We say in response to racism, what we say is because our past trauma with racism exists. So yes, we can shut down when we feel like we're dismissed, misunderstood, blamed, or judged. And oftentimes shutting down is easier than trying to convince someone that you may know what you're talking about from your past experiences. It goes back to, do you believe me? Yeah. And because that statement is true for so many of us, what I've found is you got 3 kinds of people, 3 kinds of Black people. This is a generalization, generalization for real. One is, I'm just not gonna rock the boat. Just, uh, I'm gonna do what I have to do and only what I have to do because it's a conversation I don't want to be a part of.

Yeah.

The second one is Oh, heck no. If I got to rock the whole boat, all the boats in the sea, that's what I'm gonna do. And I'm not gonna apologize for it because we are sick of tiptoeing. We're not tiptoeing no more. Okay. Um, and right now the culture is such that there's a lot of loud voices that have a lot of microphones in that lane, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Yeah.

In the middle, I think, is the hardest place to be. Because you wanna say what needs to be said, but you want, you care about being heard. So on the one hand, you care too much about being heard, so you just don't wanna have the conversations unless it's totally safe. On the other hand, I could care less if you hear me or not. It needs to be said, and if it makes you uncomfortable, so be it. And then there are the conversations. I have with the people I know that I don't really worry about how they're taking it because I know that they want to hear. But we have the kind of relationship where that is the tenure of the relationship. I can be honest and say it, but I'm willing to say it 3 different ways if you didn't get it or understand it. And they wanna hear and they wanna ask questions and they're safe to ask the questions. They feel safe to do that and they're willing to do some work. But, um, I don't see a lot of work in that space. And as a matter of fact, I think that space can be villainized by the louder voices because it can be perceived as you're working too hard to make it easy for conversations that shouldn't be easy. So when I look at this book, I just want to applaud you both. Um, I hope one day I get to meet Ross, but I want to applaud you both for— this is like a tutorial. It's like, I'm a good person. How can I be a racist? Is sorry enough? You know, should I see color or not? Because depending on who I'm talking to, you know, what if I say something wrong? What does it mean, like, one-on-one to be an ally? Why am I not invited to your party? You know, if I see something, when do I say something? Does it always have to be about race? Like, these are the questions that depending on your space, you may or may not feel safe to ask or to give the answer to. And so I love the fact that, you know, I look at it like a little bit of a primer. If I want to have a conversation with people, this can be a guide. So is, am I correct in saying like that was the, the point of this, of sharing these conversations?

Yes, yes. And let me tell you, thank you for saying that, because I struggled with, you know, um, I struggle more with if somebody gonna take my Black card. And then, um, why is that even a thing? Well, because I was— I'm not I'm not angry. I'm not, um, I'm angry, but I'm not, I'm not walking around ready, like, you know, ready to, to, to fight or to flip.

Have you been told that you should be angry? You should be angry. That's a part of the problem. You're not angry. That's why, that's the, that's why we in the situation we are in today, because people haven't been angry enough. Like, that's what I hear.

That, and, and let me tell you, I I— it was important to me not to shame people.

Right.

Right. And that, I think, is— I'm not the one to— I think there's people who shame.

That is their lane. And that is their lane.

And they doing great. I am not that person. And mainly because I know what shame feels like. And, and it doesn't have to be about race, but I know shame, and I don't want anybody to feel that. And I don't— we weren't—

we were never designed to feel that.

And that— see, this is where Jesus come in, right? Because I think for, for so many people, and it's something about what I, I know how Jesus loves me, and I know how Jesus treats me, and I know how Jesus protects me, and I know how Jesus covers me, and I know how I get to ask questions to Jesus, and I know how he responds to my asking. He's not— he can handle my questions. He can— like, even with MS, when I was like, listen, sir, what, what the world? What are we doing? He ain't scared of me. He can handle it, right? And so I, I put that on everything. I, I— so basically, my— how I've been covered and loved and how my questions have been responded with or to is how I want to treat people. And so I have to have hard conversations even with Ross. Like before we put stuff on paper, let me tell you, we had to have these conversations with each other before it could ever be printed on paper. But see, that is—

but that, I think, is one of the key things that Again, I think there's a place for all of it. I really do, because I think that sometimes you do need to overturn the tables.

Oh yeah.

Um, but sometimes I think if you answer the question too directly or too harshly, you don't accomplish anything. Um, I think the best place for all of these conversations to happen is in the context of relationship. Now, do I think that there are systemic things that need addressing and that from the top down there are big issues and they— and we can't wait on me to be friends, you know, my 5 Black friends and my 5 white friends to have a summer party in order to fix the world's problems? Yes, I do. There is a place for that too. But I think what you want while you're working for systemic change, top down, without mind or heart understanding. What you want is the hearts and minds of people to have understanding and to have change there. Otherwise, what happens? What someone doesn't know or doesn't understand or has an incorrect view of, they pass along. They pass it along to their kids. They pass along to their coworkers. They pass along to your neighbors. And then it's just a matter of time before the systems get broken again, cuz people's thinking hasn't changed. So you can't skip the conversations and the relationship, in the process of all the changes that need to take place. So when you said we had to have these conversations first, I'm assuming that some of these conversations involve some wrestling. Um, she was struggling to understand you. Um, maybe she— there was some disbelief, even if she loved you and it's for you. She just was incredulously kind of wide open.

Yeah, it was. I remember one particular conversation And I want to say this was in the What If I Make a Mistake chapter. And I remember being in— because she lives in Boulder. And I remember we had a writing retreat. And she said something like, well, if someone does make a mistake and they say, well, I'm sorry. And then I said, OK. And she said, well, you have to give them more than that. I was like, no, I don't. She said, she said, you can't just say okay. And I was livid. I was like, no, no, because this the problem, that my okay gotta be nice and be like, okay, let's have a conversation. And I remember Chrystal Hurst driving with her. She was taking me to the airport, and I remember getting my phone and just like, okay, how far— if she— if I get out right now and walk to the airport? Like, how long would it take me to get to the airport? Because I got to get away from her. I was that irritated with her, um, telling me that I can't just say okay. And, and, and the mental gymnastics of like, am I okay even has to be a certain way in order for it to be received and in order for me to take care of the person who just made a mistake. Like, I was livid, and it was going to take me too— I was going to miss my flight if I walked. And that's the only— and I just, I was like, Ross, we can't talk about this right now. We can't. I'm— we can't talk about this right now. Like, I'm so irritated with you trying to even challenge me on my okay. We can't talk. And we went to the air— she took me to the airport the rest of the way silent. Because I was that irritated with her.

So where did you— how did you come back to that conversation?

Um, after I got home, I think the next day, I was able to tell her. I said, this is why it irritated me, because my okay— just, I have to also say okay in a certain way. I said, and when someone has made a mistake, when someone has, um, especially a microaggression or did something. I don't want to have to take care of them. I don't. I said, so you telling me that I can't just say okay, that I have to give more? I said, no, I don't. And she was like, okay. Okay.

But was her okay then an okay of understanding?

It was an okay.

Or is it okay like, I saw you get all sensitive, so we just not going to—

No, it was an understanding because We, it was an understanding because I explained to her about the mental gymnastics and I explained to her like, you have to understand that if a Black person says this bothered me or this was not cool or this whatever, you please understand that it's usually not around the first time, that it's usually, um, the third or fourth time something has happened. And then we, you know, because part of the saying, okay, this bothered me, it's because we've already gone through the mental gymnastics of, if I say this, what it's going to do? Okay, now how can I say it? Because if they get, if, you know, this person get too upset, then they get to go to HR crying. And then I, okay, so then I'm the bad person. And then Black woman, the stereotype of anger. Like all of that. I said, so please understand that it's not just a first-time offense. And so saying that to Ross, she was like, okay, got it, got it. And I said, and even if you realize, if a white person realized they made a mistake, that doesn't mean that they need to say to the Black person, like, I understand in that meeting that I interrupted you and I'm so sorry. Don't do it again. Like, don't do it again. Just because even that is like, okay. And that's how I was like, okay, just don't do it again.

This conversation that was happening between you and Roz over time, um, y'all know each other, you like each other, um, you know, you, you're working together, all these different things. We need to have these conversations and we don't always get to do them with the people we like, the people we're committed to. Um, but we need to have the conversation so we can grow in whatever relationship that we're in. So how do you recommend that people deal with the bumps in the road when there is a difference of opinion or a difference of understanding? Um, because y'all were able to work that out again in the context of relationships. So even if I take this great book with all of these great chapters with the questions that people are asking, and like, I love this chapter where the question is, uh, why don't people of color trust me? And you ask your friends and their answer was because, and that was it. That's all they had was because, but then you walk it through. All right. Because. Because people of color know that there is systemic racism, or because whenever systemic racism has a movement to get rid of it, there is another movement that rises up to stop it, because white people are still shocked and surprised by some of the things that we're saying that we experience, because there is— like, you walk through all of these things But in the context of the moment, when somebody says, "Because," that is not enough. And that other person has to say, "You know what? It's enough for you to say 'because' and for us to try to— for me to understand what's underneath that." So this book has the premise that two people want to have this conversation. So my question is, if I want to have the conversation, but we don't necessarily have the history of relationship, So who— how do you handle that when the long-term commitment, friendship, relationship history isn't there?

Yeah. Um, so I've had conversations with people that I don't know, right, around the book and around, you know, just, um, just wanting to have conversation. And I've been met with some resistance. Um, like a week ago I was at a place and was talking, and, um, this woman, you know, she's like, I've been wanting to ask a Black person this for such a long time. And I was like, well, I guess I win.

Yeah, I win. Uh, uh, you know, qualification though, I— my answer, listen, is not representative of all the Black people on the planet.

Just because, right? And, and her question, and she was an older woman, she was an older white woman, and her question was around the N-word.

And she was just like, why can y'all say it and I can't say it? Is that— was that the question?

Of course. And I said— and I asked her, I said, why do you want to say it? Oh, and then her heart was— and I wasn't even being— I wasn't trying to I wasn't trying to be funny. I was just like, why do you want to say it? She said, well, it's not that I want to say it. And she got really defensive. And I was just like, I'm— long story short, she said, well, it's not— and she almost— she didn't say fair that first time, but that's what we landed on, that it is not fair that Black people, that some Black people get to use this word with each other and I don't get to use it. And so, and I was like, oh, we don't know each other. So I also had to, you know, um, to get myself together. It was like, in my mind, I truly was like, okay, don't make this woman feel small. Don't embarrass her. Don't try to, um, make her feel shame. Yeah, yeah. But, but so I was just like, I can't tell you why it's in music. I can't, because I also wasn't going to vilify Black people. And I felt like she wanted me to say, well, they shouldn't use it. I was like, I don't, I don't know, I don't know, um, I don't know, I don't know. Because she brought up Drake and Lil Wayne, and I'm like, you don't even listen to Drake and Lil Wayne, but okay, whatever.

How does she even know who Drake and Lil Wayne were?

It was, it was, but it really, finally she said It's not fair. And I was like, oh, this is where— now we can talk and we can have a real conversation.

Well, the bigger question is, why should it be? Like, why all of a sudden do things need to be fair? Which I know it's not all of a sudden for her, but for us historically, oh, now we want to talk And this is what we want to land on?

This is where you want to have the conversation?

Because if we want to talk about fair, there's a lot of other things we can talk about.

There's a lot, and that, that. But it was like, it was a challenge for me because I did not want to shame her. I did not want to make her feel small. And so I had to be okay with saying okay and saying, um, I don't know, and saying that I don't care what they say. I'm telling you, don't say it. That— and, and me saying that to you should be enough. And, and no matter our relationship, that should be enough. That me telling you that, that coming out of your mouth is going to offend me should be enough. We went on to talk about— they were— you— they used another word, gal, and she could date— gal, G-A-L.

Okay, and that's too close to girl.

A Black woman at their, at their place of, of, uh, work got offended that they used the word gal, and she told the white woman, she said, I don't like that word, don't call me gal or whatever. And the woman got really, you know, like, why this? Just gal. She said, is that a— should I not use that word? And I could tell by her posture that she was also performing. And I could tell by— I was like, oh, you don't, you don't really want an answer. You want— and I said, well, did she say that the word offended her? She was like, well, yeah. But I said, that's all it takes. And that, that has to be enough. That if one person says, this offends me, it has to be enough. It doesn't take a whole group of people. You don't need to see, you know, Oprah say it, or, you know, cause I told her about an interview with Oprah and Jay-Z. Like you don't, you don't need to see somebody famous say something for you to know that it is offensive. If that woman at your job after several times, cause trust me, it's not the first time. But after the third or fourth time and she says to you, this offends me, then that's it. That's all.

Well, I think that the problem is we do currently live— I was watching a preacher, um, say, yeah, as a sermon I heard him talk at a conference, uh, it was Robert Madhu, but he was talking about how easily offended we are right now in general. This is not black and white, this is just every little thing is offensive. Um, we, of course, we want to respond and respect people. So now, you know, whether you're trying to figure out, you know, this is not a, um, a right and wrong sin issue, it's just we're entering a season where people are of all different types, shades, flavors, are sharing their pronouns with you. And then you're trying to figure out, are we all trying to be respectful, or Who actually really does care about the pronouns, you know, or, um, but, but the thing is, because we live in a highly offensive culture, I think the issue there is that, and I'm, I am of the, of the opinion that we are as a culture way too easily offended about way too many things. But I do think that the problem is trying to group Black offense in with the general, everybody is offended about everything else because our offense is not a general. It is a historical, it is a, um, there are connotation. Yeah, there's connotations to this. This is not just, this is my little preference. I'm all for us wanting to respect people, but I think when our level of offense gets lumped into general current day cultural offense as here's somebody else that needs me. Right, right, right, right. Then that's, that's putting two things together that are not the same. One of these things doesn't look like the other. And because there is— I, I will never forget, I was with a couple and, uh, they were, uh, at an event and the, and the husband was speaking and they got a gift for the couple for their grandchildren. And the gift was super cute. Uh, it was 3 sets of pajamas, but the print on the pajamas was monkeys. And this couple was Black. And I've heard white people talk about their children as my little monkeys. You can't say that to Black people. And you sho shouldn't get me some pajamas that have monkeys on them. Yeah, because there is a deeper connotation, and your awareness of that connotation is, um, your agreement that there should be a sensitivity to the historical connotation of what you think are simple things. Um, when you talk about this book, and again, I love the premise of this book— just, here are the questions, here's why this— let me explain.

Real questions. Yeah.

Right, the real questions. But you say that, you all say, you and Ross say too, both of you, this book is meant to speak to white people directly. And then you say for people of color, this book may offer some affirmation of your experiences. You may also disagree with what we've written. But this book is asking you to partner with people who aren't the same as you. I love how you're giving people great— like, you didn't apologize. This book is all the things that Black people know that we may not say, or we may not even have words for, that increasingly we are being asked to explain. So, white people, here's the answer. Because you know what? You know what I've heard a lot of is white people want the answer, and it's not my job to give it to them. I've heard a lot of that. I've had some people on my podcast who say that. Me and a good friend of mine, Ashley, she said, "And that's the problem. If I've got to give you all the answers, once again, I'm doing the work for you." And I think that there's a place for that, for people to do their own reading and all that. But I do think some people do genuinely want the answers. They want a beginning. And you're saying like, this is what this is for.

Yeah.

I also love that you say all Black people. You may not even agree with this.

Yeah.

Um, but I would love to know, for the Black person who doesn't agree with everything that's written here, because I'm sure you've already run into a few.

Yeah.

What, what, what is your answer for the person who says in a particular chapter, yeah, I don't agree with what you said. Yeah, I don't think that that's right.

Mostly it's been about the approach. Like, you need to—

Why are you spelling this out for everybody? So what is your answer?

I've been called to do it differently. And just, you know, your way is your way, and this is my way. I've just been called to do it differently. I truly believe that I've been called to be in relationship. I've been— for people I don't even have relationship with. Like, especially on Instagram, people will DM me and I'm like, oh, okay, I, I don't know you, but, um, why are you asking me this? And then it's, you know what, it's okay, let me answer it, let me answer this for you, and then let me give you some other resources, because I'm also not going to do all of the work for you, because I think that's the other part, is just, no, this is the beginning, or this, you know, I, I tell people Google is free and so is YouTube. To. So you can— there's a lot of things that you can find the answers to. But, um, I feel like my approach, I just— I— and it goes back to how I'm treated, um, and not by people but by Jesus. And so I really take that into everything, um. And so I've been— I've been told, you know, you too soft, or you too polite. And then I think, well, you don't really know me, so Oh, okay. But that's fine. Those are really—

you know, you're, you know, you're calling. I mean, that's the thing, you, you know, you're calling. And I think, I think that's the biggest thing is we have to give each other the grace to engage in conversations and relationships the way we're called to do it. That said, that said, it should always be to seek understanding, to seek rela— reconciliation and to seek restoration. That's always the call. I think it's a problem to say, well, I'm not called to have that conversation. Oh no, you are. We're all called to have a conversation because we're always working towards reconciliation, peace, and restoration. The problem is right now we have a conversation that has not been both-sided or that Black people have been able to fully have that conversation, which is why it now feels like it's a lot.

Yeah.

Like the culturally, it's like, oh, now we finally have cultural permission to say what we've been trying to say for decades.

For decades.

Yeah.

And I will say this though, Chrystal Hurst, I, I, I tell people the truth. Like I have never had a Black teacher. And from, from when I think middle school, high school, I did have one in elementary school, but middle school, high school, college, Grad school, never had a Black person. So when white people say to me, yeah, but I wasn't taught this. Yeah, neither was I. I went to the same schools y'all went to. I was in the same. So a lot of my experience, I feel like, wasn't even validated because it wasn't taught to me in school, just like it wasn't taught to you. I didn't have anyone who looked like me teaching me. So that means that it had to be personal for me. So I had to read on my own. I had to read because I really thought that— I remember the first time a teacher said to me, "Oh, Shantara, when I look at you, I don't see color." I thought— and I wrote about it because I thought it was a compliment.

Right, right. And they probably meant it as a compliment.

It was a good intention. It was a good—

right.

And I remember going home to Clifford and Esther, and, you know, my dad, he is not a man of many words, so he just shook his head. Esther, on the other hand, was like, "What? Say what now? What?" And I was like, "Oh, but I—" Because being 14 and 15, you want to hear this from your teacher. You want to hear from your teacher that you fit in. You want to hear from your teacher that you don't stand out. And I truly thought it was a compliment, but I also later understood after, of course, my mother said, that there's another side to that. There's another side.

You need to see my color.

Please see her, because you're going to these small towns in Texas for these choir competitions or whatever, and when you get off the bus, there are some people that will not be excited because they definitely see your color, right? And so I need her to see you. Then, I mean, now later on being an adult, being like, oh my gosh, I understand. But I also understand there was a time, especially in the— in our country where we taught colorblind. Like, we actually taught that. That was a thing. There was commercials. There was a thing going on, and it was supposed to be like this. We are all the same. I remember commercials that said, when we bleed, our blood looks the same. And so it was this whole idea around being colorblind. Yeah. Now I can say that was wrong. We shouldn't have done that. I get it from I get it from a government standpoint though, because it was also this urge of like, no, no, there's no difference. Systemically though, there is difference. There is a difference. There is a difference.

Well, I think I love how you bring in the teacher concept because any good teacher would say, I can teach you till I'm blue in the face, but until you read, until you work the problems, until you do the homework, until you struggle or until you you teach someone else, you really don't know the material. And so, you know, I love this book as a great starting point to begin the teaching learning process, but then we all have to own our process of development and do our own work. I would love to share this one. I love this on page 101 of your book. You said, if we focus on winning arguments and using our words to shut others down, to show how wrong they are, We may believe that we have won. We may feel a sense of righteousness, that we have defended our cause. But the truth is, when we dominate others, we sacrifice our dignity and the dignity of the people we have convinced ourselves we have beaten, and we've already lost. Listening gives us the courage to stand strong in the storm of other people's emotions. And we are inviting you to listen. And see what happens. If you are listening to this conversation with me and Shani, Shanterra, and you're like, you know what, even this conversation has maybe made you a little bit uncomfortable. You're Black and you don't agree, we need to burn the whole thing down. Or maybe you don't want to have these conversations at all. Or you're white and you're like, you know what, I know there's a greater conversation happening and I know that I need to do the work, but I haven't known where to start. Um, or I need to know how I can continue to build relationship in the context of conversation. I want you to make sure you look it up and pick it up. It's Courageous Discomfort, again by Shanterra McBride and Rosalyn Wiseman, How to Have Important, Brave, Life-Changing Conversations About Race and Racism. And Shani, thank you for the work that you've done in the context of relationship. I'm going to be continuing to pray for you as you navigate your health. But honestly, navigating that, and as things progress and change and figuring out what you need in this season, that's the same thing we do with these conversations. We'll get to a point where we're comfortable, maybe in this conversation with this person or on this job or in this church, and then things shift and we have to learn how to bring equilibrium back again. And it's the work of our lives to operate in the skin we're in and be as healthy as possible in the environments that we inhabit. So thanks for your work and thanks for your time with me. It's been my pleasure to have you, friend.

Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. I really do.