Showing Up Authentically with Morgan Harper Nichols

Hey there, welcome back. My name is Chrystal Evans Hurst, and I have a treat for you today. If you're new here, know that it is my privilege and my pleasure, and it's important to me to help you live life well. And I do that by showing up here and sharing videos every week. I also do that by sharing on a podcast and the content for both of those is totally different. I'm going to share a video version of a podcast that I recorded recently. Here with you today. Now, the reason why I did podcasting first and have been doing it for 7 years is because I didn't want to have to get dressed. I didn't want to come on screen. I certainly didn't want to have to put on any makeup or do my hair, and podcasts allowed me to do that. And then video happened. So now it is what it is, and you're seeing me. I also now have video when I interview most of my podcast guests, but I rarely share those here. I kind of reserve the good stuff for my inner circle, those that support the work that I do.. So I'm going to do you a favor and I'm so excited to share with you my video interview with Morgan Harper Nichols. Now, if you'd like to know more about getting those extra bonuses, check out chrystalhurst.com/innercircle. Also, if you don't want to miss the content that I create here, be sure to subscribe to my YouTube channel or like my Facebook page. Morgan Harper Nichols is a gem. I know you're going to enjoy the conversation.. And when you're done, I know that you will have made some decisions about how to live your life better. I don't want to take up any more of your time. The interview is just that good. All right, here we go. Guess who's with me today, y'all? It's Morgan. It's Morgan.

Hello everyone. I'm honored to be here. I really am.

Listen, I'll never forget the time, and I don't remember if this was said the last time we podcasted, and I'll make sure we reference this in the notes too, that link there, or we met in person. But I was just like, oh my God, that's Morgan Harper Nichols. And you told me, you were like, oh my God, that's Chrystal Hurst.

Yes, yes. Because we did, we did a whole event together years ago, but just the way the schedule was worked out, we didn't actually get to meet. And I was just like, oh, she's so cool. So yeah, it finally happened at some point.

Well, and then, you know, I've told you before, I've told Jamie too, you know, we feel like your family. So it's fun to get to chat with you today. Um, you You are blowing up, friend. You are like, you know, and the thing is for me, the velocity of the attract— attractedness, the attraction, that's the word, attraction to your content, the velocity of that, the speed at which people are like, oh my gosh, I can't get enough of this. This is meaningful to me. Your stuff is being reposted. It is crazy. To me, it's just a signal of somebody that's in their zone, in their zone of genius. You have been for a long time before when you were posting your stuff, you know, and, and you had hits to your blog and you didn't even know. You were faithfully showing up for your creative gift and working in the dark, you know, in the quiet. And then there's this explosion and it's, it's great and it's, it's building and it's growing, but then it's just the speed at which it's just— the velocity curve is just crazy. I'm really excited for you. I'm really honored to have you here, but I also want to applaud you for knowing your giftedness, however you came to that, um, but knowing it and sticking with it. Because I think we admire people who are operating in their zone, but we don't necessarily remind ourselves of the commitment that it takes to recognize your gift and keep developing your gift in the dark, and then regardless of what anybody says. And so I just want to say kudos to you, girl. You're doing a great job. I want to also ask you this. Oh my goodness. OK, so you seem to be in your zone in a way that's like, I don't necessarily need y'all's feedback. Like, you know, you— like, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I know who I'm writing to. Um, I know you've talked before about how you create for an audience of one, and I'm creating for them, and I don't really, you know. And so I'm curious, is that a part of your personality? Are you kind of a blindfolded kind of individual? Um, are you a get-in-the-zone person naturally?

Um, I think I am. I do think that is one of my strengths. Um, I, I definitely, I feel like I've, I've turned it into a positive, but there's definitely, you know, being a teenager back way back when, like I had, I had a whole like a super emo phase where I would just like wear all black and band tees and I'm just like, I'm just gonna be different. Like Like, I was very, I was, yeah. I'm so glad I say that. I'm so glad that digital camera quality was so bad back then because the pictures from that time are so blurry that if they come up, I can be like, that's not me.

That's not me.

Like, how do you know? It's so blurry. But yeah, I went through it. I was just like, I should be different. I just want to be different. And I do feel like I'm different in a lot of ways. However, I think the more mature nurtured side of that is I honestly truly do feel like I'm doing what I'm called to do. And on a lot of days I do get a moment where I'm making something and I'm like, I really do feel like this is for one person. I really do feel that way. I love connecting with people one-on-one. And I'm grateful that somehow I've been able to bring that into what I share with Many people. And yeah, even with like my new book that I wrote, I mean, every paragraph I'm writing, like I wrote, like in this new book, I talk about a big failure that I had in college. And that whole, it was so hard to write that chapter because my own sister didn't even know the story. Like she was like, what? I didn't know that happened. And me and my sister talk about everything. So this one I had kept under wraps for a long time, but what paced me through that chapter was I know there is someone going through the same thing. I know someone is going to find this page and say, oh, this is okay. Like, it's okay to fail in this way. So that keeps me— I mean, I got chills even as I just said that, because I believe that so much. And yeah, yeah. So that's just kind of answering your question. I really do feel that way.

Um, are you designed that way though? Like, like you talked about being an emo kid and wanting to be different. Was that because some people want to be different because there is a need to be seen, you know what I mean? Like, you know, it's an attention-grabbing thing. And then some people desire to be different because they don't really care about other people's opinions. Yeah, which one of those are you?

Oh, I think it was a need to be seen. It was, it was a need to be seen. I, I felt a lot of rejection. I just felt like a weird kid. And one, one of many examples I could give was just— there are more examples today. I mean, I feel like the Gen Z kids, they have way more examples than I did. But when I was starting to play a guitar, for instance, there were Black women who played acoustic guitar, but there weren't that many, and especially not my age. So a lot of the spaces that I ended up— like, even I literally thought about this the other day, and I was like, man, you forget about all these little things, but it impacts you. It matters. I remember going to the music store to get guitar picks or strings, and I was thinking about the other day, I was like, literally everyone in that store was a white male. And I was just like, I, I, I would go and I would always feel out of place while simultaneously loving what was happening in the store with the music and feeling like I'm a part of this. But like, those guys are even like the teenage guys who like were my age, they weren't trying to be my friends. Like, they were looking at me like, what are you doing in here? This is our space. And again, I feel like a lot of that has gotten better. I, when I go in the music store today, some of those same stores, I'm like, oh, Now they're like, Morgan, welcome! We are making progress. Like, I get so excited when I, um, like, you know, outside of pandemic times and I'm in the music store and I see like young girls like just rocking out. I'm like, oh my gosh, yes, I am, I am cheering this on, please do that. Um, but me and my sister both, like, we both just felt like, where do we fit? Like, when your interests don't always end up leading you into community. You can feel like an outsider. So that's— yeah, I felt a lot of that. So I think my mindset was like, well, fine then, I'll just be really different. I'll just like create with just one person in mind. I do feel like that kind of led to that, because even my project of creating with one person in mind, that came on the heels of having a whole music career where things weren't working out, where I was opening for artists, I was I was showing up like with all that I had, and it was just like record sales aren't there, you know, radio's not playing the song. And it's just like, man, what do you do? You know, it's like, aren't these my people? Like, I'm trying to show up and connect and contribute in a meaningful way, and it just wasn't picking up. So I think even that was just like, well, fine then, I'll just make for one person at a time, and I'll just write my way. Worked my way around the world that way. So yeah.

Why do you think it's so important though, now in your maturity, to, to have other creatives understand the importance of this? Because, you know, as you know, everybody's between the posts now, the feed, but then it was the stories and now it's the reels, and then you got the TikTok. Everybody's trying. The goal is what will go viral. I mean, Morgan, listen to this. OK, so pandemic, the kids are bored. And while my friends, their kids built an igloo, I could not get my children off of the devices. I just finally said, you know what? This is going to add up to something. You're learning Adobe Premiere Pro. We're going to go with that. So Joel, my youngest, he decided that he was going to create a video by taking a bunch of dares from some cousins and some friends. And I saw him doing some stuff. And I just thought, that's dumb. But I just— I saw him going outside, girl, with no shirt and no shoes in the snow.

Oh my gosh.

What are you doing? He's like, I got to do it for 30 seconds and I got to video it. So I saw him do it. And one time I saw him go out with underwear on. I said, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. He said, well, I'm just going to make sure I won't show the underwear. So, but I did not know about all the dares until I saw the final video.

Oh my God.

The one that was just dumb, and I was like, Joel, is he licked the floor. He just had this long lick on the floor. OK, that one I could live with. But the one that made me tell him to take it down, was, um, he dipped a red Solo cup in the toilet and drank the toilet water. And I was just like— but I mean, he's 12, and his whole situation is, I gotta make sure this is something people want to share. Like, you know, that generation is like, they're consumed. I mean, you know, a lot of us are consumed in one way or the other because we want— like you were saying about music, we do what we do because we, we want people to see it and to, to and to, and to be blessed by it or to enjoy it. We don't do it just because we want to put it in a drawer. I mean, not all of our stuff anyway. But for him, and that gen— I mean, and his editing skills were actually great. I was like, oh good, maybe you can help me edit my videos. But I did tell him that. I said, take it down, but you did a good job. I mean, I'm just like, you are willing to do any kind of crap to get some views. So what do you tell— because I know you, you know, are talking to a lot of creatives in different seasons of their life. But when you're thinking about Gen Z and what you're seeing just overall with social media, what, why do you, what do you think they can understand about why this is not necessarily the best way for you to get into your zone?

Yeah. Oh, that's such a good, such a good thought. And that's actually, I was talking to my sister about that yesterday too. We had a long talk yesterday. We were talking about that and Honestly, I, I think this may sound a little harsh, but it's something that even I have to remember myself of, like, if you're gonna play that game as like your thing, it is a race to the bottom because you're only gonna have to get more and more extreme. So you have to ask yourself, how far am I willing to go? And you have to know what those limits are and those boundaries are because it's there are people who have— like, it happens on TikTok a lot because the way that their algorithm is set up is like literally anybody can go viral. You can create an account and they show your video to 5 people and then it takes off. It happens all the time. And you have some people who say, oh, that was a fun moment, haha, and they just go on with their life. But then you have some people who say, oh, how can I do this again? And that process of trying to do that again is just— you're going to have to just keep going and exhausting yourself more and more and, and compromising a lot of times. And it's scary because you don't— oftentimes you don't realize that you compromise until it's too late, until you've already done it. So for me, I fight hard against that. Like I am— I don't have any tattoos. I think I'm too scared of— I almost said noodles. I can't even say it. Needles. I don't think I could do it. But if I had to get one, it would be some kind of little fire that was a slow burn, because I believe in that slow burn so much. I think that in this age, everybody wants to like build the biggest fire ever and have a big party around it. It's like, no, just chip away at it slowly, slowly, slowly. And That's why I'm content with my, like, Instagram likes haven't gone up over the past year. I've gained more followers, but they— the, the engagement actually hasn't gone up. Every now and then something will spike, um, but I'm okay with that because I know, I'm like, that is so much bigger than me. I'm like, algorithms are changing, there are more platforms, there's so much beyond my control. I'm like, now I could try to sit here and game the system, but all I'm going to do is just keep compromising and spending less time on my artwork so I can try to get up something faster, so I can, you know, try to get more views or more videos. So yeah, I push against that really hard. And it's one thing that's hard to talk about because I don't want to sound like, you know, that old person is like, "Oh, kids need to stay off social media." But I think it applies to grownups too, because I— it's, it's This thing is big and it's way bigger than us. And if we try to tackle it and game it on our own to, to get fame or anything, we're going to end up having to take some time away to ask ourselves those questions. So one thing I love to encourage young people to do especially is to find ways that you can get creative, share your creativity on slower platforms, or like, like create like an actual group with your friends, like on a messaging app where where you all share videos with each other and let that be just its own thing. Like, it's because it's fun to share. Like, you create something, you're proud of it, you do want to share it with people. But for instance, yesterday, my— here's a perfect example. When I made a little animation with my son. Now I have 1.6 million followers on Instagram. There is a way that I could have filmed that and set up that whole thing that it probably could have gone viral. Look at my child, his animation. But you know who I sent that animation to? My family group text. And the only comments I got were my dad, my mom, and I think my sister commented. But that— I'm like, that's what that's for right now. I don't have to turn this into a moment. I could have. It's, it's aligned with my brand. I could have turned that to a whole thing. I'm not saying that's bad, but it's like, it's good to have that choice of like, I'm choosing to just share this with my family, or I'm choosing to share this publicly. So Yeah, that's so good.

I, you know, it's one thing to be seen, but it's a better, better thing to be seen by the people who matter and the places that matter to you. And I think that that practice of choosing to show up in the places that matter, um, will always get us farther than just trying to be seen. And I love your commitment to that. I think that that's a great way to lead by example because you have 1.6 million followers. You know what I mean? It's like you did— you could have— you could have taken this opportunity. It wouldn't have been, you know, not a fit. It's just— it just because it happened didn't mean you had to make it fit. And that is— that's good. That's really good.

And thank you. And also my sister, I just remember she actually— my parents made her take down one of her videos because she started a YouTube channel I want to say 12 or 13 or so, and she uploaded this sketch about being homeschooled, and it was like a satirical sketch. But my parents were like, you show too much of the house in the backyard, like, no strangers are going to see this. And they made her take it down. I still do that.

Karris is almost 30. I made her take down something the other day. I was like, no ma'am. Or if I didn't want to be the bad guy when my mom was still here, I would say, did you— did Nonni see that? I was like, I'm gonna let Nonni be the bad guy. Yeah, but yeah, I was telling her, girl, these people don't need to see my house.

They don't need to—

don't show all of that.

Yeah, it's a lot to think about. But yeah, she still tells that story. She was like, I was really upset about it then, but now I can see why they did it. And also, the video has started going viral in the homeschool community in Georgia. It had been shared a lot. She had— I don't know how many views, she could tell you the exact number, but she had real views. Listen, Mrs.

Harper was like, and your mama don't play LA, so I, I already know where that was going.

Yeah, she was like, nope.

I called her one time. I don't know if it was for Jamie or for you, because, but you know, because she was working in that capacity. We were on the phone for like 2 hours.

I'm not, I'm not surprised.

I was like, ah, I got it. I understand what they had growing up. I understand. She's great. Oh my gosh, she's great. Okay, so this COVID-19 for all of us has been tough, and a lot of us, um, have lost things. We've lost our plans. We lost our trips. We've lost loved ones. I know that you were planning some events that you didn't get to do because the tour was not going to be able to go forward with COVID I guess the question I want to ask you was, you know, how big of a disappointment was that? Was that like, oh yeah, I wish I would have done it, but oh well? Or you're like, oh my gosh, no, I— this was like a dream that I've been working on for a while. And, you know, how has this season What has the season taught you about loss, lost dreams, lost plans, and what have you gained in the season that maybe you didn't anticipate?

Mm, such a good question. It's been a lot of back and forth with emotions. I went from my first initial feeling was, oh, it's all fine. Like, you know, it'll happen, you know, at some point. And then I went from that to, like, oh man. We spent a lot of time and money planning that. That's, uh, this is, uh, not so great. Um, and then I kind of went back up again of like, oh, it'll happen again. But you know, once we're at like month number 5, 6 of the pandemic, it was like, oh, wait a second, maybe it won't. I remember we left one event on the calendar for October and we were like, oh yeah, by then, you know, we'll be back to normal. And yeah, October came and it was like, oh, Okay, so, um, I dealt with a lot of back and forth, but ultimately where I've kind of landed, at least for now, is, is just realizing, um, I've actually had some health issues come up over the past year that probably would have still happened had, you know, everything been quote unquote normal. So it's like, oh, um, I actually probably needed to be still and rest because I didn't even know I was going to be faced with this. And I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful for the privilege of being able to work from home while, while dealing with that and also trying to be a parent. And both my husband and I both work from home, so we're both very grateful for that because, I mean, yeah, I don't go a day without thinking about the people who don't even have that, who, who may be high risk but have to leave the house anyway. Oh yeah, yeah, I think about that a lot. It's been tough because I have a lot of family scattered across the country and haven't seen people in, in forever. And it's just, it's really tough. I've lost people that I know. Um, so yeah, it's, it's people in my family and, and it's been very, yeah, it's been very real. You know, I haven't been one of those people whose life is, looks like normal. It's like, nope, it has looked very different. Um, there's been a lot of loss for sure. And I do feel like I am, I am gaining a different appreciation for life now. You know, my parents, you know, when I, when I hear their voice on the phone, I'm just like, I'm glad they're here another day. I'm, I'm grateful for that. And to be honest, those weren't things I thought about on a daily basis all the time. But I, that's very real for me. And it comes up a lot for me. And. And, um, yeah, I feel like I am deeply rooted in gratitude right now. I, I'm like, the fact that I have a job during this is huge. Way too many people have lost jobs, lost homes. So yeah, I really do feel like I have, I have gained a lot of perspective. I mean, it's definitely been tough. And another thing that I've been allowing myself to do is grieve the small things. You know, it's okay to— you can grieve multiple things at once. You can grieve the loss of like a big capital L letter loss in your life while also saying like, I miss the fact that I had a Disneyland pass and we used to go to Disneyland. I miss the fact that—

Did you really? Or are you just saying that?

Yes, we had just got one. I think we made it twice. We made it there twice.

Twice.

And, um, that had been— me and my husband Patrick, we've been married for 10 years, and that was always— we're like, we're gonna, we're gonna be those people, we're gonna get season passes when we have kids, we're gonna go take them all the time. We're like, we're gonna do it, we're gonna do it, we're gonna save up and do it. We made it happen. And yeah, we made it twice. And now they've actually just canceled the pass completely in California, so you can't even get it anymore. So yeah, that's one of those things that may feel bad about grieving, you know, because it's like, why would I grieve a Disneyland pass? In all of this. But what I kind of see it as, it's like in the chaos of life and all that is out of our control, those small things bring us real joy. So when we lose those small things, that, that does feel like a loss sometimes. They're like, oh, that was a source of joy for me that I don't have anymore. And the good thing is, is that we can find those other sources of joy. But it's, it's That's a real, that's a real loss for sure. So that's something that I have to remind myself of. And I try to remind people of in my life because the very, very, very few people that I see on a regular basis, which is just my family members, you know, we've all been able to work from home and we've all been able to have that. And so we, we may feel bad about missing some of those, you know, smaller things. So I'm always like, hey, it's okay. It's okay to grieve those things and to you know, slowly begin to find, find joy in different ways.

It's really good. You, you know, the things that you're doing are things that I don't know if you dreamed about or if they just kind of came about as you stayed commitment— committed to your craft. But I do know that probably now in your, your career and your creative journey, there are some dreams that you have. And I'm curious about what those are. I know that you had a— that Jennifer Love Hewitt wore a t-shirt that you—

yes.

So I'm sure that was fun to see. But I'm just curious, are there any things that you have right now in your head or in your heart, you don't even know necessarily how you're going to get there, but you would love to? And so finish that sentence for me as it's related to your work. I would love to—

oh, I love that. I would love to be in an either directing or executive producer role in some type of feature animated film. So whether that is something I fully produce and make myself, I'm really interested in that. I really want to do something more that with my art that kids— that is made with kids and young people in mind. And like you said, I have no idea what that looks like, but I think that's the fun of it. I don't know how to write scripts. But I— that is a dream of mine.

But that's the fun of it, because you didn't know anime either.

Yeah, exactly. I knew nothing about this.

And now you have little moving things all over your Instagram.

I do, I do.

Yeah, I, I love that. I love hearing, A, that you have something that you would love to do, and B, that you have no idea how you're going to do it, but you've identified something and it's in your head. You've spoken it out loud with words. That matters. And I look forward to seeing you do that one day, because I believe that that is definitely in you. Okay, so of the stories of people you've written for, what is one story that you have never forgotten that has impacted you deeply or even the most?

Mm, you know, it's— I, I want to answer it in— and because the thing is, I never share the stories publicly, right? I've actually just started to open it up where I say, hey, if you want to share your story, then I can share it, you know, if if you're comfortable with that. However, there's one kind of story. It's happened a few times that, I mean, one of these people, they come to mind often, and that is when I go back to respond. And a lot of times it was someone submitting for someone else. And by the time I got to them, they had passed away. It's someone who had a terminal illness. And yeah, I was too late to get it to them.. And a lot of those messages say, oh, they were such a huge fan of yours. And yeah, that just, that hits in my gut because there's just nothing I could do. Yeah. Um, so I think about them and their legacies and their families because I'm just like, okay, we didn't get to connect with each other the way that I wanted to on this side, but there was some connection there and that matters. So that really stays with me a lot when I'm sharing, because it's like when you put something out there, you don't know who's going to find it. You don't know how they're going to see it. You don't know what place in their life they're going to find it in. Um, but you just have to know that it's going to connect in the way that it's meant to. That has just been one of the most humbling, sobering experiences that I've ever had. And sadly, I've had that experience many times, and it's just like It's out of my hands, but we are still connected in a way that matters. And I truly believe that. And even getting to just talk with their loved one. I've done that a lot too, and that when their loved one responds, I'm like, I'm going to make something for you like that. I know you didn't ask for you, but I'm going to make something for you. So yeah, I think about that a lot. I really do.

Yeah, I, um, I don't know that it's happened to me as much, but there's one particular person who— when someone's been following you for a really long time, you, you just know, you know their name, they comment on everything, you, you know, you see them. And, um, um, her daughter sent me a DM and just said, uh, like desperately to me saying, you know, I, I'm like, I'm hurting so badly. My mom— I mean, like, her mom had died late the night before. So this is in the middle of the night, she's sending me a DM. I don't know what to do. You know, my mother just died. It was sudden, it was unexpected. And I just know, you know, she loved you. And she was always talking to us about, you know, how, you know, Chrystal had such wisdom and this, this, that, and the other. And I can't believe she's gone. And I just needed somebody to know, you know. And she was, you know, it's not somebody that I'm conversing with. So it fell in the part of the Instagram, you know, that you have to dig through if you want to And so I saw it. I was grateful I saw it. And I just said, of course I remember her. I remember her. I actually— she had messaged me. The mom had messaged me and said, I can't get one of Priscilla's books in Africa, but she's coming to South Africa. Could you send— can I pay you for her book and can you send it with her? And I'm sitting here going, this is not going to work. How am I going to— Priscilla speaks to large audiences. How am I going to— make sure that— I mean, I just, I didn't know. I called Priscilla. I was like, I don't know why, just random lady, I know. But just anyway, it worked out. So the mom had gotten this picture with Priscilla, had gotten the book. And so I said to the girl, of course, of course I remember your, your mother. But I felt, and I was surprised— I mean, not surprised, but just so deeply aware that it hurt me. You know what I mean? Like, I don't, I don't know if we'd never had a conversation. I just have this vague understanding of who she is. But what I know is, A, she was this girl's mother. B, I remember enough about her presence on social media to go, you know, like she was consistently there and positive and encouraging, and her soul is no longer on this earth. And the loss, I like, I felt it. I felt that this person that I happened to know, they're not here, even though they're not in my personal sphere of family. Do you feel that when that— I mean, are you feeling that? For yourself.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, it's— yeah, because these connections are real, you know. It's like, we may not— we may be seeing each other through a screen, but that is a real person. Like you said, this is— that is a real woman's daughter that you were talking to. That is a real story.

It's a real story. Yeah.

And that is just— it's, it's— yeah, it's real. And we can grieve that, absolutely. And and make space for those people. I, in those moments, I truly believe that. And honestly, it's, it's, I mean, even you sharing that story with me is, is just a reminder of why I do what I do. Because like you said, it's, it's on one hand, you've got the viral moments and you've got, okay, you got to get everything you need to say in a 15-second Instagram reel or no one's going to pay attention anymore. You know, you've got that on one side, but then it's also like this is a tool that we're able to connect with one another, um, and even now more so in this difficult time. And yeah, that, that matters. And we may not be able to always articulate how it matters. Yeah, but it does, it does matter.

Every story, um, is born of a soul, and that soul, in order for the story to come out, has to risk being seen, being accepted, being rejected. It's— there's a modicum of vulnerability for someone to share their soul, which is what so many people are doing when they share their stories with you. I want to talk just a little bit as we bring our conversation to a close about vulnerability, why it's necessary. And I know that so many people struggle with it, which is why they're so grateful that you open up your DMs and say, tell me your story, you know. Somebody's listening, somebody's willing to look, and I can kind of do that and feel okay because she may not even see this and nobody will know I said it, you know. And there's this safety, this idea of safety. But why is vulnerability important? And how would you encourage the woman who's struggling with vulnerability to have the courage to share her story with you, with someone else, even with just one other person? Why does it matter? And how would you encourage a woman who's struggling with that?

Hmm. Yes. Yes. What a, what a good question. I would say that, you know, one of my favorite messages that I received, and I received it a lot, and it's, it's, it, it makes me so happy to see it where the person says, I'm not even sure if you're going to see this, but it felt good to get it out.

I love those too.

And I think that that is vulnerability, because it's— that's the first step. I think a lot of times, at least for me, when I hear vulnerability, I'm like, okay, I've got to have this really deep, well-thought-out conversation with everybody I know in my life, and if I don't, then I'm not being vulnerable. And it's like, okay, it could grow to that. Or the fact that you just said, I'm gonna put this in a paragraph and send it to one person That is vulnerability. That is honest, courageous connection that matters. And that's going to grow. It's going to grow with time. You're going to gradually find the people that you feel safe to talk to and that you feel like you can actually share your story with them and have a, have a dialogue where that's not based on, you know, shame and judgment and all those things. But that stuff takes time. Time. And, and I have to just go with my own life of— as someone who doesn't naturally just— like, if you look at my social media, you don't— I don't share a ton of my personal life because it's, it's not very easy for me to— like, I have a hard time, like, talking about myself, so I certainly have a hard time talking about my emotions and what I feel.

So, um, which is so interesting that somebody who's so in connection with emotion has a hard time sharing their own emotions. Yeah, it's a whole thing.

Oh my gosh, yes. And I, I do think I share— I end up publicly, yeah, yeah, through art and poetry.

Yeah.

So it's absolutely there. Like, everything I share, it is authentic and it is absolutely connected to what I'm actually going through. However, it's hard for me to say just in plain words, I struggle with this, or here's how this made me feel. That's hard for me. So I have to give myself permission to start small, you know, like for me, sometimes being vulnerable is, is, is saying to, to, to my sister or my husband saying like, hey, I'm just, I'm just too tired right now because this thing that happened that really frustrated me. And that's it. I don't have a positive spin on it or anything, but it's just opening up and saying that for somebody else, That may just be their M.O. Maybe they just feel more natural to express and tell people how they honestly feel and what they're actually going through in that way. So I think you have to know, you know, how, how do you express and what's brave for you? What's, what's courageous for you? And for some people that might be opening up a journal and just scribbling how you actually feel or recording a voice note that, that just says how you actually feel. And maybe you don't even send it to anybody at first. Maybe you're just getting it out. And for some people, that is saying, okay, you know what, I'm actually going to share this one on Instagram or I'm actually going to share this one in the Facebook group. So it's going to be different for all of us. And I think that's super important because we live in a time now where we may see someone being vulnerable, like maybe they share something about their illness and you're watching that saying, wait, I have the same illness, but I'm not sharing all that. Am I being vulnerable? It's like, yeah, you are. Like, you don't have to share in the same capacity that that person does. So that's something I'm learning in real time because the pressure is real, you know. You see other people being vulnerable and taking—

telling all their stuff.

Oh yeah, and you can easily start to feel like you're not being vulnerable because you're not sharing in the way that they are. So there are many different ways you can be vulnerable.

How do you protect your heart from all of the people that are being vulnerable with you? Because empathy is real, but the load from empathy is real as well. How do you remain open and empathetic to people without it wearing on you?

Yes, I give my— I'm learning to, and I'm getting better at it. I give myself permission to take breaks. Um, actually yesterday I deleted social media off my phone and I just have it on my iPad right now because I was getting to the point where I'm like, I'm feeling a little overwhelmed right now. I don't know why, but for some reason I'm feeling just a little bit more overwhelmed. Um, so I'm just gonna make this small shift and yeah, I'm not gonna put any like limits on myself in terms of like, oh, when are you going to switch it back or whatever? I'm like, for right now, I'm just not going to look at DMs on my phone right now. Like I'm just going to, when I'm in my office, I'm at my desk, and I'm, you know, in that mode, I'll do it. But I'm just going to take a break from that. So, yeah, I'm learning how to do that more and more. And it's hard because it's hard when you have unread messages and you're just like, oh my gosh, like, I got to get to these people. I literally have unread messages from 2017.

It is what it is, but I just got to let it go. It's like, you know, doing your— doing your taxes, like when you realize you missed the receipt is from 2017. It is what it is. No, I can't. It is what it is.

Yes. Yes.

This is so good. Listen, we are so blessed by your commitment to the gift that God has given you. We are so blessed by the commitment to the rhythms that you have found that work for you. We are so blessed by your willingness to share what you're learning as you live, what God is teaching you, and then what your own experiences and connections with other people, other living souls, is teaching you too. Your overflow, whether you feel it all the time in your creativity, your overflow of your commitment to your creativity is always available to us. And us, starting with me, I'm grateful. Thanks so much for joining me.

Well, thank you for having me. Thank you so much.

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