Toni Collier on The Path to Healing

Y'all, if you don't know who Toni Collier is, first of all, you don't know me very well because I love her and I've talked about her. She's already been on the podcast, episode 309. We'll make sure we provide a link to that in the show notes for this episode. But today Toni joins me for a couple of reasons. One, the first conversation, if I have a great first conversation with someone, I immediately say, let it breathe a little bit, but bring them back. So this is in the bring them back just because. Then I found out that this was going to be great because it was time for her to come back, because when you have PR people that are like, it's time for you to actually market the book you wrote, they, they want you to come back too. So since then, um, Toni has been able to create and finish Brave Enough to Be Broken: How to Embrace Your Pain and Discover Hope and Healing. So we're going to go deeper now, just because we can and because we should. Welcome Toni to the show.

Well, I'm excited. My pits are sweating. I feel good about it.

Have you seen the Dove commercials about the pits? Do you know about this?

No, I don't.

You just Google— just Google Dove and pits because there's a whole movement now that I think is on the tail of the body positivity that says I should be able to do whatever I want to do with my pits. I mean, grow them or not grow them, tat them or not tat them, put glitter in them or not put— it's a whole thing.

It's a whole thing. Well, they just need to be dry over here, okay? And they're currently not.

So you're like, only one thing have I desired of the Lord.

There's only one— that I will dwell in the house of cleanliness. Come on, I know the scripture. Don't play with it.

No, that is amazing. Okay, so when we talked last time, yeah, you were not officially a published author.

Yeah.

What has changed in your life since now you're an officially published author? Anything?

Oh man, I think I've gotten more mature with my words. Because when you write words in a book that are literally going to last for a real long time until Jesus come back, you're mindful about how you talk about stories in your life, people in your life, um, because you're but a page number away from sharing all somebody's business. And so I think I'm more mature with my words in the here and now, and I'm more mature with my story. Because if we are going to be authors and be honest about what we're writing about, then a lot of our story is going to be included in that. So I'm like, let me live my story as right as I possibly can so I ain't got to write about this one day and all the people gonna know my business. And so I just feel like I'm a more mindful person because my words are out there for everyone to see.

Yeah, yeah, I, I get that. I— there are times still where I go to church and someone comes up to me and they will say to me, um, girl, you need to get Joel that whatever, you need to get Joel that shirt he wanted. And I'm like, first of all, what are you— how do you even know? And then I'm like, oh wait, I said it, I went live and I said that. And like, people actually watch and they listen and they remember and they do not forget. So you have a word on your tongue, you put it out there, and then everybody else is like, I underlined that in your book, I highlighted your words, I highlighted your I wanted to forget that, but you didn't. Okay, did you jump straight in from book 1 into book 2? Like, did you have to do that pretty quickly?

There was probably a 4-month window. Oh, which was not enough. Okay, from releasing a book and then starting to at least brainstorm the next book.

Yeah.

And yeah, that thing was short. That thing was short. And I said, I don't have anything left. What are y'all talking about? Um, but it, it refined me because it helped me to understand that I do have some stuff that I should say and want to say. And there are other parts of my story. So it just required a little grit. But it was that, that window was short, let me tell you.

And you were doing this while you were also bringing your newest child into toddlerhood. So he was basically a baby. You wrote this book. How long did it take you from I finished that one, I breathed, I started from start for number 2. And you just turned it in, coming out in 2024. What period of time was that? You wrote for how many months?

4 months.

So 4 months while he is in his 8 to 12 months, like while I'm learning to walk, while I'm tearing stuff up, while I'm—

uh-huh, I'm still on the breast milk out here. Yeah. Wow, when you say it, it's crazy. When you're doing it, it's like we just surviving out here.

Surviving.

Yeah, that's right. That did happen.

I have a deep question. I'm not going to get in all the way deep and stay there. I'm going to dip in, come out. Okay, go deeper, go home.

Where are we going to go?

Based on your story, based on your history, based on your life. Okay, I'm not making an assumption, it's just a question.

I'm excited.

Do you think you're comfortable living in survival mode?

I'm extremely comfortable. My counselor says that there are points in my life where I would rather live in agony than experience loneliness. I'm real good at chaos and trauma. And when it's not there, I have to be very mindful because I go sniffing for it and I create it. And so, yeah, I got to be.

So how do you not do that? Like, how do you— how do you— like, as I listen to you, I'm like, yeah, that sounds like how I write a book. But I have friends. I have friends. And I'm sure you do too.

Yeah.

Yeah, well, you know, they had these retreat weekends, or, you know, it just, it breathed for 3 years. Or, um, you know, yeah, they just, they did it weekly. They had, you know, they, they turned in the chapter every week, or they did it in the context of a writing group, you know, they had feedback as they went. They just, and it's like they just didn't want to hurry it up. I'm like, with no deadline, y'all not gonna get nothing from me.

I will see y'all in about a decade turning this book if you don't just, you need Yeah, do you even think you could? Because, yeah, I— first of all, I'm 32, let me just say that. And now that I'm— you're a baby— that I'm kind of young, right? Yeah, that I really don't have as much wisdom. Because I feel like in your 20s you kind of feel like you do, like, I'm crushing it, I know what life is all about, it's all good. You cross over into 30, it's like, sis, you don't know what you're doing out here, okay? You're reliant on the Lord. And so I feel like at first I placed these assumptions on myself. So when I first started writing the book, I was like, I'm just going to write when I have time. It's going to be great. I'm on the road. Once I go on the road, I'm going to be able to get into a hotel room, and I can write. I won't be with the kid, all the things. And then that's just a lie. It's just a straight up lie. About a month and a half into writing the book, I was like, I need designated time. I need structure.

Yeah.

And so it's even funny because today my kids are at home. They're with our nanny. And I'm like working 9 to 5. But I swore I didn't need that. And then in the process, I was like, you need some designated time. You got a touch of ADHD. ADHD already, so you need some designated time.

Did you know this, or this is a self-diagnosed ADHD?

Because, you know, unfortunately I do know this. I got diagnosed because I was like, something is wrong.

That's an adult.

As an adult.

Okay, where do adults go? This is—

teacher, pay attention.

Where do adults go when adults need to know if they have ADHD? They don't have a school counselor. Where do adults go?

They don't have a school counselor. So I have my own personal counselor, obviously. I go to counseling every other week. And when I was writing my first book, I was like, I am not doing well. Like, there's something wrong here. I was writing my first book. I was in seminary. And I was like, I know the material, but it is until I'm under immense pressure that I go further faster. But when I'm not under pressure, I'm lollygagging. I'm on the Bible app. Then I'm on somebody page scrolling. I'm like, Lord, I was doing the Bible plan, and then now I ended up ordering a monochromatic set, you know? And so I had to— I was like, OK, like, we can be an adult about this. We've diagnosed— we've gotten other diagnosis about other things, even my daughter. And so I asked my counselor, I said, sis, can you, can you refer me over to a psychiatrist please? Because it would be really great to figure out what's going on. And lo and behold, your girl got ADD. And there's other solutions for it, but yeah, but there you go.

So what does that mean you learned that you incorporated into big projects?

Yeah, so you got— you have some choices, right? Like when you're diagnosed, you can say, all right, I'm going to maybe take medicine for it, or I'm going to find some other ways to cope with it. And for me, I really wanted to try some other ways to cope with it. So we have a— I have a 90/10 rule. So it— which did not start off as that, but the whole goal is that for 90 minutes I can focus on one thing, and for 10 minutes I get a little break. I give myself a little treat, whatever.

The extended Pomodoro technique.

Thank you very much.

Because when— listen, when they give me the Pomodoro technique and they say 25 minutes and then 5 minutes off. I'm like, what the heck am I gonna do in 25 minutes?

So much.

So I break all the rules. 60 minutes, 90 minutes. I'm with you on the extended.

I'm at 90 minutes now, but it took me a long time to get there. It was the 25, you know, 5, and then it was okay, we can do 30 and do 40. And it was great because there was something about the achievement of I just crossed these things off.

The bell rang. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Oh my gosh.

And I was like, oh, I'm going to get a brownie. And I used to treat myself with cookies too, which probably was a little too far with it. But that's good for me, you know. And I'm just really glad that I went and said something is, is wrong here and I need to get some help. And it's been beautiful for me, especially with my daughter, because she also battles with attention. And so her seeing me be proactive about my own attention has been super sweet.

And he—

it's been great.

Yeah. That's great. That's great. I love that. Well, I think, you know, to— one of the things too that you're saying, or that I'm hearing, yeah, is you were even able to accomplish book 1 one way, and then, you know, you had to introduce some things for book 2. Like, just because you did it one way last time doesn't mean you have to do it this way. I mean, you're a very self-aware person. You are 100%. You, you know, you don't hold any bars about sharing your counseling and your commitment to that. Um, and I think honestly, we live in a generations— and I mean multiple generations— where we are, we are, we've got therapy, we talk with therapy words. Sometimes we use words we don't know what they mean, but there's this high awareness. Yeah, but that doesn't mean that you're fully aware. It's a gradual process. It's like going from glory to glory. What do you think new baby, new book, all these things, new diagnosis, all those things. What do you think in the last 12 months you have become more aware about when it comes to you, your mind, your body, your soul? What do you know about yourself at 32 that you may have had an inkling towards at 31 but not fully? What do you know now?

Oh, this makes me weepy. For the first time in my life, I can really clearly see that I am handling anxiety and conflict better than I ever have before. And it makes me weepy because, I mean, it's been a journey, a very, very long journey. Lots of trauma treatment, weekly counseling, years and years and years and years. And I've looked up and I've been able to self-regulate. I've been able to sit with my anxiety. I've been able to have better conversations with my husband. And it's really because I have friends that call that out and say, oh, Toni, like, I noticed you handled that really well. I noticed that, you know, when we processed through this conflict together, my husband, like, you didn't try to leave the room. And you didn't just cut me off and was like, whatever, and push it to the side. Like, you sat in the conflict. And that's— I mean, it's kind of embarrassing, but this is the first year that I've been able to do that well. And I'm proud of myself, not because I signed myself up for counseling, which is something to be proud of, not because I went through all this healing and different communication strategies, but because I feel more holy. Like, I genuinely feel like I'm being more like Jesus when I can sit and have a conversation about conflict and honor people well. I feel more like Jesus when I don't run and leave the room, but I sit in the chaos, like the Holy Spirit hovers, you know. And that just makes me, like, so grateful and happy that I didn't lean on the side of, well, counseling and healing ain't of God, so let me just put some scripture on it. But that I actually leaned into that tension and then I came out more holy because of it. And that just makes me so happy about myself.

That's amazing. That's amazing. I think, you know, I mean, first of all, you know, you sound holy. That sounds like something somebody holy would say. So like, you're even doubling down on the reality. It's like, I I feel more holy. That's what a holy— that's what a holy person would say. Um, how does journaling play a role in the way you work through and build upon the tools that you learned for all the things you've talked about? Handling the anxiety, regulating the emotion, communicating better. How is journaling something— how do you use that?

Yeah. Well, so Harvard did a study on women and men when it came to communication and how we get ideas out. And 80% of women are verbal processors. So, you know, my husband always makes fun of me. We say this all the time. He'll be like, hey, what grocery store are you going to? And I'm like, well, I was thinking about going to Kroger, but I thought about going to Walmart because they're a little bit cheaper. And then I thought about going to H-E-B, but they be a little expensive and I get stopped up with those samples. And he's like, well, that's, that's amazing. Right?

Yes.

Because we're verbal processors, and we have to get it out to get there. Well, sometimes on the journey to verbally processing a thought, a solution, an idea, a response to conflict, it takes a while. And it gets clunky sometimes. And maybe sometimes it gets hurtful. Journaling, for me, has allowed me to get information out of my head that's ruminating in a safer space between me, the pen, paper, and Jesus.

Yeah.

So that I can get to a point of resolution instead of having to drag somebody along. And that's been with so many areas of my life. I be talking to the Lord. I be writing in my journal and talking to the Lord about my marriage, about how I feel about things, about my ministry. And I look back on those moments of journaling because it also brings up a sense of remembrance. When I go back and look at my journals from 3 years ago, my God.

Growth.

Oh my goodness. It documents growth. It brings about remembrance. And I think God's called us to remember what he's done and what has happened over time so that we can have a sense of gratitude. I think it's literally one of the antidotes to gratitude is remembrance. And that's what journaling does. And it's so good for me. So, so good for me.

Are you a serial journalist? Is this a daily practice? Is it when you're just about to throw up? How— what is— how does it work? When are you engaging?

Really good. Well, at first it was like, oh, I just want a cute little journal, and every now and again I'll add a little something something in it, you know, because I want to use my little gel pen.

But, um, can we pause there? Let's pause. I'm so sorry, you mentioned gel pens.

What are you talking about? What you want to do? What you want to do? I'm not quite smooth on these boys.

It's the Cup O' Pens right here.

Okay, play with it. Please don't play with it today.

Okay, I just wanted to say I felt a fellow, fellow pen sister right there. It just got— it just was clear to me.

Okay, I mean, I'm into it. Okay, into it.

So you get your gel pens out. It was a cute practice, but now—

well, now I've decided that living a life on the offense and not the defense is a little bit better. So maybe I don't have anything prolific to say in my journal on that day, But it's all about being on the offense, continually falling into rhythms, as Rebecca Lyon says, who I love so much.

Yeah.

And having these rhythms where sometimes journaling for me is just about meeting with God. Sometimes it's pages, and sometimes it's just, "God, show up for me today. Show me, Holy Spirit. Reveal something to me." And that is it. And it— I need structure. I'm a wild girl. You know what I'm saying? Like our counselor says, "My husband's on a staircase. I'm on a playground." Okay? I'm bopping around. Doing all the things all the time. I need structure. Journaling consistently gives me structure in processing things, in meeting with God, and, you know, just being on the offense. Yeah, so all the time now.

That's great, that's great. So you are, you are bopping all around on the playground, absolutely, positively. And you, and you bring out my bop, you know. You bring out my bop. And I'm, I'm, I'm holding back a little bit because I'm supposed to be official and professional and interview you, but Um, I want to know, on a daily basis, is this where you live?

Oh yes. I mean, I wake up— I mean, from dusk until dawn. Like, it just—

I love that so much.

So that when my husband and I first got together, he was like, I need 20 minutes in the morning. And I'm like, to do what? For you not to make eye contact with me, that is what. Because I, I— my son loves it because I literally wake up in the morning and I'm like, God woke us up today. I'm like, good morning. It's like a whole ordeal. My son pops up in his little crib, he's like, Mama. And I just— I've always been like this. I just don't even know.

You truly woke up this way every day?

Literally. My friends used to call me a Teletubby. I'm the pink one. I am the pink one.

That is amazing. That is, that is amazing.

It's crazy.

I love how, you know, you need rhythms, but it seems like your natural first steps is not rhythm. Like, you're— you learn rhythms.

Mhm.

Okay. Like, okay, how— because normally, okay, one of the things I, you know, I think about, okay, your book Brave Enough to Be Broken. And your ministry, Broken Crayons Still Color. Yeah. Oftentimes when rhythms of any kind are introduced, or what people perceive to be, in order for healing to be mine, here's the prescription, right?

Mm-hmm.

Either by personality, they're, they're Teletubby Pink Bopper, or by function of their emotional situation, meaning I can't do that. It's like telling somebody that's depressed, if you'll just do this, this, and this, yeah, it'll lift. And I'm not talking about where we're talking about medicine and stuff like that, but I'm saying I have been in situations where, uh, you know, I'm just on the floor. I'm just on the floor. It's just a series of things. And if somebody comes with the steps, they could be correct, they could even be simple, I ain't got it. I don't have what, what you need me to do for step number one. I don't have that.

Yeah.

And so rhythm, sometimes to people who are broken, who are seeking healing, um, the routines, the steps, sometimes it's like, I get that, but that's too hard. You know what I'm saying? Like, I, I get that, but that's too hard. And I know that, you know, you are wonderful about saying, let's, let's talk about it, let's get it out in the open, let's talk about the brokenness, and let's talk about this roadmap to healing and hope. When the roadmap involves things like community, and it involves counseling, and it involves gratitude, which we should do on a regular basis. And you write about these things, and someone says, I tried the counselor, didn't work. Uh, I sit down to be grateful, and I really can't think of anything, or I can only think of the same 3 things that I thought of yesterday. And people keep telling me that only healing will only come in the context of vulnerability, you know, You've got Curt Thompson saying that, you got Brené Brown saying that. In all kinds of spaces we're hearing that. And then people say, I tried that and they disappointed me. They didn't show up for me. And so when you're talking to people, as I know you often do, who are attracted to the message, I'm broken, you're going to help me, and you start giving them things that sound like, feel like, appear to be formulaic. Yes. And they're like, I can't do that. I tried it, it didn't work. Or I started it, I can never keep up with it. Or I have a million unfinished journals, you know, or, you know, all these things. What do you say to the person where rhythms are helpful, steps are helpful, but they're overwhelmed by even thinking about starting?

Yeah, that's so good. Okay, so I have a clinical answer and I feel like I have a spiritual answer.

And we need both.

And we need both, right? Um, so I'm in a certification right now at the Allender Institute on story narrative trauma. I felt like I've gone to seminary, we have a church, I write about these things, whatever, but it would be helpful for me to be licensed and certified in some things. And so, I've gone back. And this clinical answer comes from a counseling session that I had and also a story narrative trauma class that I'm in right now. And I remember asking my counselor, I was like, "Sis, nothing is budging here." Like, I mean, I see it. I still feel the way that I felt a year ago. Like, I don't understand what's, what's happening here. Is God not choosing not to heal me? Am I just not doing the work? I'm in counseling. What's going on? And she was like, oftentimes when we feel stuck in something that's painful, when we experience the same behaviors or reactions, it's because it's beyond behavioral and it's trauma. And trauma has to be cared for differently than a behavior. And that was what was happening for me. Like, I'd gone to counseling for 2 years. I'm like, what is hap— like, I'm still responding out of a triggered area. Like, I don't know what's going on. And I got into trauma treatment and really started to do the work of rewiring my neurons, like the actual way that my brain was wired. And it was like something unlocked. I was like, oh, there that is. And our counselor says this, trauma treatment is like having a bookshelf. And I say this all the time. I love this explanation. But it's having a bookshelf. And if your story is from left to right, and it's chapter— it's all these different books, chapter 1, when you were 1-year-old, 2-year-old, 3-year-old. What trauma does is it's like pulling a book. Out of the bookshelf just a little bit. So now there's a riff in your story. So when you look at your story from left to right, there's a little riff in it. Trauma treatment goes back and pushes the book in. It's not that it didn't happen. It's that you don't have the riff, so it doesn't keep tripping you up. And so that's the clinical answer. But also, after I went through trauma treatment, there was still this, oh my gosh, I have so much to heal from attitude. I still have so much to heal from. I'm still going to have to start again. I got this other thing with my mom, and this other thing with my dad, and I got these kids and da da da da. And, um, I remember going to the spiritual encounter, and I realized that from that spiritual encounter— this is a big jump— but I was a fan of God, not a follower of God. And what was happening is that the enemy was tripping me up with how I experienced and interfaced with God. I was a Sunday type of girl, like, it's me and God. I'm belting out all the worship songs. I know every single lyric. I'm louder than the worship team. It's horrible. Okay. But Monday through Saturday, I just— I was living my life, doing drugs, still living it up, partying, all the things. And I was a fan. I was in the stands cheering on all the people that were doing the work of ministry. And I was just in this space where it was just like, yeah, God is like my bestie for the restie, but he's not my Savior. Other things are my Savior. Drugs are my Savior. My pastor is my Savior. And it was when I really dove into my relationship with God that I felt comfortable being crippled on the floor like you were, saying, "God, I can't do this. I just can't do it." And giving all of my everything, my doubts that I can't do this, I've tried all these things, et cetera, et cetera, over to him and letting him carry the weight of my doubts. I think for some of us, we are really doubtful about doing things, especially if we've done them before, because we're trying to carry them by ourselves without the full power and force of God. And then we act like we don't live under a curse, that we live in this, like, euphoric Eden where when we try something the first time, it's going to go perfect. Well, We live in an imperfect, fallen, broken world, which means that sometimes you are going to work on that marriage and it ain't going to work for 6 months because we live in a fallen, broken world. But the closer you get to God and see his perfection, the more you see your imperfection. And that doubt turns into, God's going to do it one day. I live in a fallen, broken world. And it may not work the first time or the fifth. Because I live in a fallen, broken world. But because of what God did through Jesus on the cross, he's gonna bring this thing into completion for my good while I'm here on this earth. I believe it to be so. And that changed, like, drastically with my spiritual relationship. It was crazy. I was like, oh, now I'm like, God gonna do it. I don't care how many times.

Those words sound— those are— they sound familiar. I know what you're saying. Yeah, but tell me how. Oh, how am I— how am I hand— yeah, how am I handing that over exactly?

Every morning I wake up, I open my hands up, and I say, Jesus— I got this from John Eldredge— I give everyone and everything to you. Take over my life because you're better at it. What that is for me is humility. I am wild, okay? I got into a high-speed chase just about a year and a half ago. I'm gonna be honest about that. Now, not with the police, but with this man in a Ford 350.

I was gonna say, and what were you driving and what was he driving? And you were just edging up on me.

I got a little— I'm like, a backup player. Like, I'm not even in the left lane, bro. Like, just go the other way. Just go to the left. See, I didn't—

I'm like, don't start nothing, won't be none.

I'm like, bro, just back up. Like, okay. Anyways, um, I'm a wild girl, okay? I got some temptations. I can pop off real quick, real quick. And when I get up in the morning and I say, Jesus, I give everyone and everything to you, it is this posture that reminds me that he is better at it. He's better at it. I'm gonna fail. He's not tired of holding all my stuff with me. And I also give everything to him. That's my career, platform, little Insta greasy account, anything. And even when I don't feel like it, even when I want control because it makes me feel more safe, if I can do that every single morning, there's just power in our words. We know this. We're teaching our daughter this right now. She's been telling everybody, don't say this, power in your words. Because there just is. We're rewiring the way that we experience life and God. And I think a practical way to do that is to reset every morning. New mercies, go access them every morning.

I love that. I love this idea. Like, I have this picture in my head of the words that came into my brain as you were saying that was assume the position. Like, you, you have to intentionally, regularly, and as you said, daily, start again in the right position. It's almost like cleaning your kitchen at night, like You know, you know you're going to mess it up the next day again, but you want to clean the kitchen at night or in the morning, whatever works for you. But at some point, you don't want to start cooking with a messy kitchen. So in order to prepare for the stuff that's going to happen, and you know it's going to happen, yeah, you just kind of clear the slate, you keep everything clean. And assuming that position gives you a strong starting point. And I love that. I do the exact same thing. A friend of mine told me years ago, stretch your hands towards heaven And this is the first time I heard that. I'll have to look more deeply into John Eldredge and what he was saying around those words. But she told me, stretch your hands to heaven every morning. Just thank him for the day. Give your day over. Let him know that whoever you want, ever, whoever he wants you to see or talk to, you're open outside of your plan. Whatever he wants you to do, you're open. And then open yourself up and say, listen, whatever power I need that you have, I need it, so give it to me right now before your feet ever hit the floor. Just the posture of humility. That's amazing. That's amazing.

I mean, you know, you just said even like whatever power you have, like when Paul wrote to the church in Corinth, like in 2 Corinthians chapter 12, and he was just like, we always— we get stuck up on the first part of the scripture in verse 9 where we're like, oh, God's grace is sufficient for us. Oh, it's just— it's sufficient. But it's the like the rest of the scripture, really, that's our part. It's the call to action. Yeah, God's grace is sufficient for us, and his power is made perfect in our weakness. And Paul says, therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weakness. Therefore I will wake up every single morning and say, Jesus, I hand it over to you because I am weak and you are strong. And if I want to access the full power of God, then I have to be able to access the humility that's needed to boast about my weaknesses.

You talk about the importance of healing before helping. And how important that is. And so sometimes there's a mixture and a misunderstanding of how healed do I have to be before I boast about my weaknesses. Uh-huh. And I would like to know what you've learned about that, because, um, I'm assuming— because a part of your platform, as is mine, is authenticity and transparency. And while everybody doesn't need every dirty detail You have been called to not write the safe book. It's, I'm going to tell you, I'm going to give you some things that you can probably take to the bank. But right, I'm sure, I'm assuming this may not have happened. I'm curious, has anyone ever said to you, but do you have to share all that?

Mm.

Um, and what have you learned about how you decide what all that should be?

Yeah, there's an area in my life right now that if I even took 30 seconds to talk about, I'd be breaking down on the podcast. People would be like, whoa, we need to get sis off the podcast, she is, uh, she ain't in a good place. It's because I'm still grieving it, I'm still bitter about it, and I don't have any hope about it. I genuinely am like, Lord, you're gonna have to do it. I didn't give it to you, Lord, until I can get to a place of hopefulness. And that's been the indicator for me. When I turned the corner— it's not time necessarily, because everyone literally heals in very different ways, and very different patterns, and very different time spans. And for me, it's been about the litmus of hope. Like, am I hopeful about this? Do I believe that there is a better day? Or am I still bitter, grieving, angry, sad? Because just imagine if I wrote a book, or got up on Instagram Live, and started talking about something— uh, friendships maybe, and I have a friendship that's broken. And I'm like, and then she said this. And I'm telling— people will be like, well, this is not hopeful. I don't think you should be leading on friendship right now, sweet girl, because it looks like you're a little bitter about it. I think there is a difference, and you know this, between authenticity and vulnerability. Like, authenticity is showing up as my full Teletubby self, which I can do all day long. Vulnerability has to be done in safe spaces when you are prepared to hold what comes with that. And I've never been— oh, girl, no, no, no, no. Let me not say— let me not lie on the podcast now. I definitely have shared some things in private that people were like, oh, you probably need to have a conversation with the person instead of saying that here at dinner. I've thankfully never done it publicly, praise the actual Lord, because when I went through some hard stuff, I didn't have a platform. And so praise the Lord, nobody was looking at my Facebook. It's all good. But I love sharing the hard parts of my story, not because it feels good to release it, but because I can now give hope about it. So that if someone's in the middle of the dark part of their story and it looks like what mine was, they now have hope that they can get through like I got through. And I think that's the test. I think that's what we got to be certain about. Because, Lord, we have seen the people on the social medias. Telling all their business from a real crazy place.

We've seen that. We've definitely seen that. And, and literally, you know, I've had mixed feelings about it sometimes. Now my feeling is I feel so bad for them because I understand it's coming out of something. You know, there would have been a time I was like, oh girl, go look right now, she live right now, go, you know. But now, but now it's like, oh, that's coming from a— it's, it's a— that's kind of a really tough place. Yeah, it's a place. I know one of the things that you, um, talk a little bit about too is how health spills out into your life. And, um, I sometimes have had moments where I'm surprised at what came out. What I just did— I just say that out loud, you know?

Um, more saved than that.

Yeah. And, and it's not even that I like literally surprised, like it wasn't stewing, I wasn't working hard to hold it, but given the right circumstances and maybe the right trigger moment and maybe they said certain something, and it just came out. And the reason why I know that it's so deeply embedded and probably sometimes subconscious— yeah, not only am I surprised, but I'm also surprised at what happens when I say it. Like, I had to work, whether that was an emotional response or words. I obviously have been working overtime subconsciously to keep this thing down because it's socially unacceptable, it's spiritually, um, not okay. I, myself, as Chrystal, as the Lord made me, would never like this about myself. So I'm just trying to keep it under wraps. And then it's the right day, the right time, and the right trigger. And I have a response, or I say a word, or the tears flow. And I think most women have had an experience, whether it's anger or stress, discouragement, frustration, or, or sadness, where we will say, I have no idea where that even came from. I don't even know why I'm crying. Like we, we don't even know. It just, it just comes out. So what does that look like to be attentive and to know, yeah, I got— oh, something just spilled out and I need to deal with that. How does unhealth spill out and what do we do about it?

Well, we're going to practice a little bit of vulnerability right now, Chrystal Hurst. Okay, okay. Because— and I just— oh, this is how I just know God is He is God and he is present and he is living and moving. And the Holy Spirit is here because, um, this happened to me this weekend and I won't get into the details of it because again, we're not all the way healed in that place. But I have carried the feeling of embarrassment and shame about my actions for the past 3 days. I called my counselor up, told the whole story, cried for half of it. I was like, Lord Jesus, I just— and I just genuinely was like, I never thought I would behave that way. Like, I have come so far. It has been years, years since I have ever behaved that way, used even that volume, that tone, okay? Years. And the first thing that I did was I realized that I had ruptured something. I ruptured a relationship. I ruptured not only a relationship here on the earth, but I ruptured a relationship with God in the way that I acted like, you know, someone that, that wasn't closely tethered to Jesus. And so I acknowledge that, wow, I've like ruptured something here, multiple things here. And the first thing I need to do is sincerely apologize for it. And I did. I apologize to the person. And then I had to go on a journey of discovery and forgiveness for myself. And it's literally been 3 days of, all right, we about to invest in an extra counseling session because I need to go process through this. Why did I respond that way? Who was showing up in that moment? Because—

meaning which version of you?

Correct.

Okay.

So we— I love Dr. Allison Cook. She has a book called Boundaries for the Soul. And she talks about this idea that our soul is made up of all of these different versions of ourselves that represent our childhood, right? Like it's called internal family systems. So you look in the Bible and you get those moments where it's like, I don't know why I do what I don't want to do. And I mean, I'm this person. And you get, you know, someone like David, who's a man after God's own heart, like he is just amazing. God loves him. And he's still out here stealing people's wives. It's like, no, how did you— like, it doesn't make sense.

Yes.

And so now psychologists and psychiatrists have started to put words to this, this question, why do I do what I don't want to do? Like, what is that? And my counselor and I processed through who that version of Toni was. And that was 14-year-old Toni. And at 14 years old, she had just lost her virginity to a much older guy who had been very sexually manipulative in her bedroom with her little SpongeBob. Comfort her because she was 13 years old, you know, and she felt completely out of control. She felt unseen, unnurtured, and not protected. And from that place, rage came. And so we had to go back and essentially invite the Holy Spirit into that part of me to say, okay, 14-year-old Toni, sweet girl, okay, we have obviously been keeping you at bay for so long. We've been ignoring this part of your healing journey for so long that now you have bubbled up and leaked over without me even knowing what was happening. That's subconscious, right? Like, whoa, Jesus, I did not think that that was about to happen. And now we're going to invite 14-year-old Toni into the room with the Holy Spirit, and we're going to speak directly to her. And we're going to say, listen, The God that is with 32-year-old Toni right now was with 14-year-old Toni then. And she is not alone. And she will not be exiled. And she will be comforted, and seen, and known. And you can show up fully, and grieve what has happened to you, and know that God, he is omniscient and omnipresent. He is in the front, the back, the past, the in-between, the future. He's healing and working things out for our good in the future. And he's still healing, and reconciling, and redeeming things in our past. And he will be with you to heal you. And so I've just been sitting with Jesus and this 14-year-old girl that lashed out and trying to bring wholeness to her again and healing and holiness. And I think for anyone that's like, I don't know why I did that, we just shouldn't brush those things off. We should invite those parts of us into the more mature version with Jesus in the power of the Holy Spirit, and, um, and not be embarrassed and not exile them out of the room and say, okay, that was just one time. Oh, okay, I'm not like that no more. Well, okay, yes you are.

Okay, I love how you use the word invite. Say that again. Say that last part again.

I said, and, well, you see the healing right there. Okay, and, and it's okay. And that's my personal journey, literally over the last 3 days with the same exact thing.

You use the word invite. And so I was nodding vigorously, vigorously, because this is like, as you're talking, I have all of these thoughts that are like, yeah, coming that are not what you're saying, but it's what you're saying to me. Do you understand?

I think, yeah.

And I just had this thought, a part of the beauty of walking through the process of healing is inviting all versions of you to the party. Like, if you're going to live a full spectrum, in living color life, you don't get the full color life with only the safe monochromatic colors you invite. You have to invite the red rage. You have to invite the sadness. You have to invite the growth areas. You have to invite— you have to invite all of those people.

Yeah.

And, um, when they show up as versions of you, you don't recognize, that's just because they never got the invitation until today. So I just was like literally thinking, we shouldn't be afraid when unhealth shows up because unhealthy versions of us are basically saying, listen, you left me outside, and I'm not— I'm not happy about that.

Why wasn't I invited to the table?

Why wasn't I invited to the table? So it's an opportunity to reunite all parts of you in the right place at the right time with the right knowledge. You got the right knowledge, you have the right information, you have the right relationship with God. Yeah. And now it's like a reunion.

Well, Jesus invites those parts of us into the room, right? He's not nitpicking who we are, even though many of us have been taught like he's the God that's at the end of the tunnel, and when you get all cleaned up, then you can go down.

Pearly Gate.

He's lighting the way. Yes, yes, he's lighting the way. With all the different parts of you. And so how much more can we invite those parts of us into the story that we're living if Jesus would do the same?

So good. That's so good. That's so good. I wonder, like, right now, I understand what you're saying, why you're talking about that, the thing that just happened, the way you're talking about it. And we have to work through things and all that. How do you know you're ready? How do you know whether it's in a safe place, like a small community? Yeah, husband. I mean, I know your counselor is a safe place. How do you know that healing has come, whatever that level of healing is? Like, you're healed enough to even talk about it today, even though we don't have the details. Um, but then there are layers of that, like, you know, it's like coming up for air at different levels. How do you know when it's okay in this space? How do you know when I can tell this friend? I'm thinking about, like, I feel the vibes of people that are going to listen to this, and they literally, as we're talking, are going, am I supposed to tell? Am I supposed to bring this? How do you know when that level of revelation is safe and okay?

Yeah, well, this may be a little controversial. I feel like the word safe space have been overused. Abused and over-assumed, right? Like, I feel like I'm even mindful in our church saying, this is a safe space, this is a safe space.

Excuse me, church people need help.

This is the hospital, okay? It's a whole bunch of mess up in this room right now. This may not be all the way safe, but I feel like safety is proven over time. And it's not to say that we don't trust first, because that's a part of even our core values. We choose to trust first, the intent of people we trust first. But it is to say that even Jesus had circles. Even Jesus had the 3 disciples that he went deep with and the other disciples outside of that and the masses that he didn't share everything with, and et cetera, et cetera. And so, and I think that one of the things that we got to see Jesus do with his disciples is he invited them into relationship. And even when they made a mistake, like denying him, he came back and still cultivated that relationship over time and re-invited them into healing the rupture that was caused by people. And I feel like we have to do that. So I'm a part of a confessional community, which sounds very—

how's that different than the small group, because, you know, everybody— we've been through the whole small group era. Get in a small group, get in the D group, get in your Bible study group, get in your— what is, what is now a confessional? I mean, okay, what is that?

All the different names in the titles. Dr. Curt Thompson actually created this concept, okay, that we, in order to really dwell in a safe space, we're gonna have to confess some things. What happens in the small group setting within the church is we are not confessing anymore. We're actually just coming together to do the Bible studies that have been pre-written, that's someone else's stories, right? And so I, I hear that a lot from women. I'm in a small group, but we meet up and we don't really talk about the things that I want to talk about, the things I'm actually going through. We just go through a Bible study. And so, no shot to that. I think there needs to be a level of discipleship when it comes to theologically understanding the Bible, of course. Yeah, I didn't make Bible studies. I mean, you know, But it's confessional community. I know, I'm like, I'm going to shoot myself here. Bye, Bible Study. But in our confessional community, we are confessing. And it's been 3 years now. And we come in with our griefs and our longings and the darkest parts of our stories. And that's what the intention is. And I think that's the difference. All my girls coming together in a group. Like, that's the same structure, but the intent— the intention behind coming into a small group setting is that we're about to literally tell all of our business. But it's like, it's like an onion fest. Everyone's just layer, layer by layer. Yeah, an outside layer that you can't eat, but it's there. So it's like, I'ma just tell a little bit bit, okay? And I'm gonna make a blood pact, um, to make sure that, that little bit don't get misused, right? A little controversial too. In our group, there is an equal amount to lose. And this is— I, I, I'm—

these are peers.

These are peers. And I think it would be very hard to find safe spaces with people who don't understand your life and the way that you function in it.

Yeah.

And again, we welcome difference. All of us do different things. But there is this camaraderie of sameness where we can relate to each other. And so it would be like a single person being in a married small group. What y'all about to talk about together?

Mm-hmm.

You probably need to be with other single women. Who can grieve the things that you're grieving, and who's just as tender in the areas that you're tender in. And so now you both have a mutual thing to lose.

Yeah.

And now trust is built, and safety is built over time. And I would just say, don't go— don't go like lunch meat. Go bread first, OK? Give a little bit that you can afford to lose on, and then go deeper. I just— I'm just not into this whole, we've created a safe space. No, prove it. Prove it.

You, you just said, coming out of your 14-year-old self that showed up, and then, you know, she's invited to the party, you kind of said, I've, I've moved through some layers. Uh, you said, I've, I asked for forgiveness, I asked for that person to forgive me, and I'm kind of doing the work. Like, why did she show up? What does this girl need? But then you said, I'm working through this process of forgiving myself. We don't talk about that a lot, um, because, you know, people are really super spiritual. They say, what do you mean? God already forgave you. You don't have to do that because he forgave you. You know, you know, it's all that. But I think because we don't talk about that, that's where, um, shame sets in, and that's where hiding comes in. Because if we're not at peace with— it doesn't matter if you forgive me, if I'm still raking myself over the coals, or if I cannot because of my lack of self-forgiveness except the forgiveness that God has given me, I still have a problem. So what does that look like? Like the layers, you kind of laid it out there. What does that layer look like? What, what does that mean you, you're doing with that?

Yeah, I want to, um, give a quick example to what you're saying because I think this is so funny. I just interviewed someone on my podcast named Heather McFadyen, and she has a, uh, She live up there. Okay, she understood. Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah, you guys.

Yeah, I love it.

And she talked about her son publicly, so this isn't gossip. And she goes, um, one day my— one of my sons did something really mean to my other son, and it was just devastating. And I told him, hey, you need to go apologize. And he just could not bring himself to do it. He was so rude and snappy, and he wouldn't apologize for what he had done wrong. And so instead of reprimanding him and being upset with him, she takes him in the corner and she goes, hey bud, why don't you want to apologize? And he said, well, I'm embarrassed. I'm embarrassed that I did what I did. And he had to go and process and forgive himself for what he did so embarrassment could be off the table so that he can go do the right thing for his brother. We are naive if we think that we can care for others if we don't first care for ourselves. Our care and love has to come from an overflow of how we view ourselves because it's how we interface with people. And so for me, I'll tell you, I want to really, like, get super vulnerable. After the moment, I go into the car and I sit down. So I'd already apologized. And I sat down in the car and I was like, Toni, you are not bad. You were made good for good. You have done something bad, but you are not bad. And it's so crazy because this is literally what I told my daughter. But I'm like, doing this, it's just, uh, yeah, it's so fresh. I'm still just like reeling from it. I said, you are not bad. You've done something bad. You are not bad. You are good. You have done your work and you made a mistake. And Jesus is still in the room. He's not leaving the room. He is for you and not against you. And we can move forward now with tending to the wounds that you have caused.

Wow.

Because you're secure in your goodness. You are good. Now go make it right. And man, there's such a difference. And I know people know— I know they nodding right now because I know y'all thinking about the argument that you got in with your husband and you done did something wrong. And he's like, hey, why aren't you apologizing? I don't need to apologize for that. Mm-mm-mm-mm-mm. But it's because there's so much shame, so much embarrassment, that you haven't tended to your own heart so that you can tend to the heart that you broke. And, whoa, that's taken me a long time. That's taken me up until 32. Let me just tell you that right now.

That's not that long. Okay. Oh, it has to— I have to say that, right? I have to say that. That's the position I'm in in life. I think what is so refreshing about what you share, how you share, is that you're willing to do what you've already done so well today, which is to give us a peek, even if the whole chapter is not ready to be written, or if it's still boiling over in a book, or if it's just to go in your journal, you're like, here's what I just learned, let me share with you what I can. Let me share with you where I'm beginning to have revelation, and when I know more, I'll come back to you. I mean, I think that the willingness that you have to allow us— and by us, I mean myself, anybody who's going to listen to this podcast, anybody that's going to pick up, um, your book Brave Enough to Be Broken, the— what you give us is the permission to say— because we'll give it to you, we'll say, thanks, Toni, for sharing that. Like, that's helpful. Like, I'm not mad at you because you're not telling me the whole story, but what you did tell me is helpful. You give us permission to do the same thing with our 14-year-old selves. It's like, oh wait, I don't even have to figured out. But when she shows up and lets me know that something's not okay, I don't have to stuff her. She's not against the rules. She just got invited to the party. She just is learning how to live in community. And I can go the distance with her. Watching you go the distance with all versions of Toni, as you discover them, and as you share the pieces of the story that you have, is real-time discipleship. It's real-time mentoring because there's so much talk about what to do. We know we can journal, we know we can go see a counselor, we know we can get in community. But you saying, this is how I do it, and in order for us to see clearly, share your story as a part of that, it makes a difference. It makes a difference. So I just want you to know that it's not just what you're doing, but how you're doing it in your full-blown pink Teletubby self situation, that is the gift. That is the gift. So thank you so much for giving us the gift of you.

Well, this is awesome. I could just close my laptop. I don't even have to achieve anything else today with what you just said to me. My heart— what is this, like 8-year-old Tony? She's like, thank you.

It might be. Yeah, and then invite her to the party.

She's good with them, partying around. She probably was twerking a little bit.

I don't do that no more, but you can, you can if need to be.

That's what I'm trying to say, right here in the comfort of my home.

Okay, so yeah, I love it so much. This is great. Thanks for joining me. It was great.