Unexpected Places: Thoughts on God, Faith, and Finding Your Voice with Anthony Evans

Okay, we are live. Hi everybody, it's Chrystal Hurst, and I am here with my brother Anthony. Say hi, Anthony.

Hi, Chrissy.

You know, this is what happens when you call your family and you say, hey, can you join me because I'd love to interview you? And then he says, sure. Now what are we doing? What are we doing? So We've been sitting here talking about what we're doing. What we're doing is talking about Anthony's new book. See, y'all know he's a singer. You know that he is a worship leader. You know that he's a musician extraordinaire. But did you know that he was writing a book? Probably not. The book is called Unexpected Places, and it goes on sale tomorrow, August 21st, wherever books are sold, right? Tomorrow?

Yeah, tomorrow. And I knew what we were doing in general. I just meant specifically, I knew we were going to be talking about the book. I know we were just on here to say hi and hang out.

I mean, now, you know, I'm gonna have to do my best to keep it about things remotely, moderately related to the book because, you know, people have a lot of questions for you. You know, I get a lot of questions for you all the time.

I get that. Most of them are answered in the book, I think.

What do you say? Most of them are answered in the book?

The questions I'm thinking you're talking about will be answered in this book.

OK. Well, then everybody should read it. OK, so why? Why bother writing a book?

Well, I did— you know, I was approached by the publishers, and they were mentioning to me that they thought I had a story. And I was thinking, why? And they said, in between songs when you're on stage, you talk, and we believe that there's something beneath the surface of you. We believe that it's like an iceberg. We see something, and then underneath the surface of you, there's a lot more of where that came from. And we want to know your story, and we want to engage in it. And I thought— my first thought was, yo, I can't even read a book, much less write a book. I have the attention span— I have the shortest attention span. I say it in the first chapter. Like, I'm constantly like squirrel. Like, that's my life. It's like, something's going on. Wait, hold on a second. So I will— I'm the guy who will count the pages of a chapter before I read it to know how long I'm going to be sitting here.

And this is for the books you want to read, too.

Well, yeah, I don't read books. But I'm just saying like—

That's not true. You showed me, I was in your apartment and there was one particular book. And you were like, it's really good. I'm trying really hard to make it through.

Yeah, it was very hard for me to focus all the way through. So anyway, they said they believe something beneath the surface of you and we want to see it. And then I just said on one condition is that I can write micro chapters and— and, you know, just short 6-7 page chapters where you can get the point and then you can put it down for a second or move on if you'd like to and feel like you accomplished a lot in one sitting if you go past one chapter.

Okay, how was the book writing process for you?

Uh, it was, it was actually, it was very good. When I first started, I had, um, a lot of questions like, how am I going to come up with 200 pages worth of material? But as I began, uh, writing and, and doing these voice, these long voice notes of different stories and different things that happened in my life, I was, I realized there's a lot to be said, and I would have loved for— there have been books and people like this in my life, but I love it when somebody chooses to be honest and vulnerable and transparent with me along my journey now, and especially when I was younger. And if I would have had conversations like this, I would have— there would have been a lot of good done in my life if I would have— if I would have been able to read those. So I wanted to write one.

So what— because for the book writers out there, because there's, there's going to be a few of those for sure, What tips do you have? Just straight up, this is your first book. You're fresh, kind of, you know, into the launch of it and out of the writing of it. What would you say to someone who wants to write a book?

Man, I had help. I had help. I had publishers and people around me who were helping me understand the process of book writing. So not everybody can have that, but that's been my only experience. So I do believe, though, that not necessarily trying to have everything in order is a big deal. Write the book, write it, and then later on you can map everything out of where it is. But my initial thought is to get the thoughts out and then you can later on place them and make sure that they—

OK, let's talk a little bit more about what's in it. I know that there are— that these words resonate with you and that they resonate with the direction of the book. So words like self-doubt, depression, processing, searching. If you had to say, if you had to give one word that would kind of nail the book for somebody, if they said you could tell me it was about bam, what would you say in one word if you could?

If I could say one word about what encompasses the whole book, Authenticity.

Authenticity, right? Let's talk about that self-doubt. Um, a lot of people that have your platform, um, not all, there are definitely a lot that do share authentically, but there are people on platform who don't want to talk about the fact that they struggle with doubt but they're a person of faith, or that they um, that depression is something that they would use to describe them or seasons of their life. Why do you think you're choosing to be authentic? I mean, is it just the way you're wired? Is it something that you struggle to be, um, authentic about?

No, I feel like, I feel like, um, for me, not being authentic is, is, is death to my soul. That's what it feels like to me. Not being able to be authentic in this book, not having authentic relationships, it makes my soul crumble. So I feel like actually a lot of the way that we were— the world that we were brought up in, I don't mean by our parents, I mean the world that we were brought up in, a lot of times Christianity doesn't perpetuate and reward authenticity. A lot of times it doesn't do that. So I don't have a chip on my shoulder toward Christianity. I need to start by saying that. But I was like, yo, this is not going to work for me. The way that things are kind of being built up around me as it relates to what I feel like people need to be perceiving me as and all that stuff, that was like, this is too much work. So that's why I chose authenticity. Sorry.

That's okay. It happens. But, but that's true. I mean, like you said, that sometimes the world we live in, and also then you stack the Christian world on top of it, authenticity is not rewarded. Why is that? Why, why, why is that?

I feel, you know, it's really interesting. I feel like authenticity is rewarded more now in church. Yeah, in mainstream culture more than it is in church though, overall. And that's very concerning to me because if we know, you know, I always compare it to going to a doctor's office. If you don't tell them what's wrong, you won't get to see any result. You won't get to see the doctor's knowledge, the doctor's tools. You won't be able to see what he knows in action because you're not starting with being authentic about what's going on. And I believe as believers, if we know the Great Physician, we are not encouraging people to say what's really wrong with them so that he can start working in their life. Then we're messing up somewhere by not encouraging it and not allowing a safe place for people to land when they want to talk about the fact that, yes, I prayed all day, but I feel depressed. Like, I think you should be able to say that kind of thing. You know, I have a gymnast friend of mine who said something very profound to me in a really short sentence. She said— I said, why are you not afraid to try new skills? Why are you never afraid to try something new? And she said, it's because I know I have a soft place to land. And I was—

wow.

We knew as believers that we have a soft place to land. We would try the skills necessary to land on our feet over and over and over again. We would keep trying them until we did it. But a lot of times in Christian world, we don't have a safe place to land, and so we stop trying. And I don't want people who read this book to— I want them to see that there's some hope and a soft place to land. So get up and try it again. Or find a soft place to land and then get up and try again.

So, you know, you mentioned because of the struggles with depression, struggles with self-doubt, you mentioned counseling, medication, the stuff that you have done to keep trying and to give yourself safe places to land if those were not naturally occurring in your life. Was that hard for you to talk about, to admit, to say, you know what? Yep, I love Jesus, and yes, I will rejoice in the Lord always. But yes, I also need counseling. And if I need to pop a pill, then so be it.

Yeah. You know, if it's— the question again was, was it hard for me to admit that?

Yeah. Was it— I mean, even though I hear you saying authenticity, if you're not authentic, your soul crumbles, which actually, that is such a rich choice of words. But was it— was starting to talk about it, was it hard? Like moving from it is to I'm talking about it.

Yeah, it was hard initially, but then after you start doing it and you feel your soul coming back to life, then it's not hard anymore. And it's— there are things that I had to talk through, like during a time of a deep, dark, a really deep, dark place in my life. I was like, I can't, I can't. And I do not, I do not just overall condone medication just to get everybody to get on medication.

Right, right.

But for me, the way that I'm built, which is hyper-emotional one in our family who feels everything I'm like, yo, I can't get myself up emotionally enough to even go to counseling or even read or even do anything. I keep crumbling before I stand up. I needed something. I wasn't going to take anything that was going to just pacify me and I'm not going to work. You can't. You have to do the work. Like, it kept me, it got me on my feet so I could try to start walking. That's— and as soon as I started walking, I was like, okay, I'm done with that. I'm up now. I'm on my feet. So it was a get-me-up kind of moment for me. And then counseling, man, people can say whatever they want. I don't care. Counseling has changed my life. It is like, I would not be a whole human being if I wasn't in counseling. And still, and I still go when, when things get stirred up. When, when we went through the recent loss of our, our beautiful cousin, I was on the phone. My counselor, she's amazing. She was on call for me because I needed to process as I was going through it because I'm the guy who gets overloaded emotionally and then will just blank out and just kind of lose it. So I was doing 30-minute sessions. I'd walk out of the house where our family was grieving and get on the phone and do a session with my counselor and then walk back in the house. That's what I needed. And so there's no, there's no shame in any of that to me. And it takes more strength for a person, but especially a man and especially a Black male, it takes more strength to admit you need it and to be vulnerable in that way than it does to act tough. To me, I know that for a fact, acting tough is not as strong as actually showing that you're weak. It doesn't take as much energy.

As it relates to success, I know that, you know, success has been a thing for you, trying to define what it looks like for you, um, having to wear and maybe unclothe yourself from what it meant to other people for you because of, um, you Tony Evans being your dad, and then also our dad, also you being his namesake. What does success mean to you now? Because you are a hard worker, and it's not like you don't set goals, you don't have things you want to achieve, and you don't write things down. I mean, you work at it. Well, if you had to define what success meant for you now, and then I'll work— we'll work our way back, what does it mean for you now?

Success now means, am I, am I doing what I'm called to do? And am I at peace? And I came to that conclusion because after achieving everything that you've ever worked for, and, and defining success by achievements, you can then not go write a check for peace. You can't go purchase peace. So I now have to define it by the intangibles. I love doing what I'm called to do. But am I at peace doing it? Which right now, me being at peace means I get to be on the road with my family. I'm very grateful that that's even an option that we come from a family like we have, where we have the option of being on the road together. Mm-hmm. And like, a place that I'm not striving and feel like I'm trying to be the number one artist here, and I'm trying to be the best here. No, because after you achieve number one, there will be a moment when you're not, and there will also be a moment where you realize, I'm in this big old house, or whatever, wherever you are at that point, and I'm not— and my heart still hurts. And I can't go write a check to get my heart better.

Mm. Why do you think success— because am I right in saying that success for you, defining that and learning what success means for you, has been a journey based on history and family and other people's definitions? Has it been? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

There's a part in the book where I talk about being in Nashville, Tennessee, and Nashville didn't do anything wrong to me. It just— there's a certain formula for Christian music that works because for some people it works because that's genuinely who they are. For me, I was too soulful, I didn't play the guitar, I sing up high and do stuff that's not like singable, super singable for everybody. So I immediately didn't fit the mold, and I tried to fit the mold. I was— nobody made me, I was a grown man, like 26, but people around me were saying, "You should do this, you should try this." And they all wanted the best for me. They were not being malicious, they were just telling me what they thought I should be doing. And I remember manipulating myself to the point of like, I don't even like this song. Like, if this song— I have to go sing this song for the rest of my life. If this song becomes the number one song, I have to sing a song I don't like for the rest of my life.

You sure do.

You sure do. To be popular or the cool kid. And I was like, nope, that doesn't work for me. But I knew that Nashville wasn't going to make me decide to stop singing just because I don't fit what's on the radio. Like, that didn't make sense to me because— You know, this sounds harsh, but I was doing a lot of churches at that moment. At that time, I was singing live all the time. People would have me in to sing live. And in that moment where radio wasn't happening and church was, I literally had a moment where I was sitting in a green room at a church and was like, oh, God said I'm coming back to my church, not from my radio station. Like, I need to be serving the church, not serving— not literally going serving hard, trying to get —be commercially successful.

So what words of encouragement do you have for people who are where you were in Nashville, which is there's a formula, and all I actually know to do is follow the formula, but it's not working for me. But they're not quite yet to knowing what works for them. They're just— just the stuff they're trying isn't working. Or doesn't feel right? What would you say?

I would go back to the redefining success and chasing the peace. Whatever direction you feel like there's a peace that comes with it, chase that peace, even if it's not attached to gold records and meetings on the top floor of some building or monster publishers wanting to— like, that's not the definition. That's how we define it, but that's not the reality of what it is. That's not the reality of what it is. I really do, and I keep harping on this point, but living here in LA, I know some of the most successful people, quote unquote successful people, you'll ever find. Like the biggest movie stars, the biggest people in secular music, and I also know that some of them are going through some of the darkest stuff I've ever heard in my whole life. And when I look at that, I'm like, I just have to remind myself, Anthony, being on the COVID of People Magazine has nothing to do with whether you're successful or not inside, whether you're successful. And so again, encourage those people who are on that, that tedious journey redefining success and then chasing what creatively gives them peace and then letting God put the other stuff together.

Are you a natural people pleaser? Are you wired to people please? Or—

yeah, I'm the third, I'm the third of us. There's obviously for the watching don't know, this is my sister. And secondly, there are 4 of us, and I'm the third peacekeeper middle child— keep everything in, let everything be okay. But in— but yeah, so yes, I'm a peacekeeper, but that can be detrimental if you don't handle that attribute right.

So there's a part of you though, and I'm getting at something here, there's a part of you that as a peacekeeper you have to learn and had— have had to learn and probably still have to work through it when you shake it off and when it is kind of a part of your design, because you pride yourself in that also, like, in the sense that you can make things better, you want to make things better, you, you want people to be okay. So there's the healthy side of that and there's the unhealthy side of that. For the people who are— and I know they're gonna find out a lot by, you know, reading your process in the book and what that looked like for you, because an example is better than an explanation. But in this conversation, if you had to say to someone how you've learned when to shake it off and when to just be like, yep, it's not my problem, and when it's like, you know what, I am moved to do something here to bring peace, to bring something, and it's the right thing to do, how do you tell the difference as a built peacemaker that can sometimes overdo it?

Yeah, when I start to feel myself compromising me as a person and my well-being to create peace in somebody else's life, that's when I'm like, sorry, I haven't— I have— sorry, go ahead. No, no, no.

I was just going to say, but come on now, you know, you're a Christian. So it's supposed to be Jesus, then others, then you. Nope.

I believe that it is Jesus and then others. And I've never thought about it with what you're saying. But Jesus and others and you— but I think sometimes the others bleeds over into you so much that the you goes away and you— there is no you. You can't let others get so big that it smothers you. So yes, I believe that Jesus smothers you, but there has to be some clarification on what that means because I think we take that too far in ministry, especially people are, you know, they— yeah, they just believe that ministry and Christianity is sacrificing yourself to the point of where it's not good for you. And that's not necessarily the best. You're not, you're not getting the best out of what God's intended for you to do when you do that. I believe a lot of times, and that's very subjective. It varies. Some people have this high tolerance for dealing with stuff. I don't because I take on people's issues like I take them on, like I have to work on me being, having a savior complex and I'll fix it. Not— there's just a point where I'm like, no, sorry, wish I could.

Because you will show up and fix it. That is very true. Uncle Nene will fix it.

I think that's appropriate when it's your family and when it's those scenarios like that where that dedicated attention is worth it. But when somebody has shown you who they are, you know, you, you temper what you're giving to them based on what they've shown you. Yeah.

Uh, when have you had to do that? Can you give me a little something? Cause I'm sure there's a little something that's in there, but just a little something.

I mean, there are, There are relationships in my life now, like before getting on this, you did this, this thing with you. I'm dealing with stuff where I'm like, you don't deserve any more of my energy. Because what happens is, is everything, as long as everything is going a direction that is okay with the other party, you're good. But if things start to turn where they have to start to sacrifice, or they got, then you just deal with it. Like you're all of a sudden dealing with issues. And I'm like, yo, that's just not the kind of friend I don't want. That kind of inner energy in my life. You know, I sound very LA saying energy and all that stuff, but we know what you mean. We know what you mean. Really, it will drain you, you know. I think what's—

I think what's interesting is that as an artist, as a creator, and, you know, I think to some varying degree, because we are created in God's image, we all create something. You are a creator in the art hardest sense of that word, that it really is, um, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but virtually impossible to create out of dearth. Like, there's got to be— I mean, not that you can't, you know, do an Adele thing and, you know, write out of the darkest points of your life, but it's still a pouring out of you. And if there's nothing there, then you can't even do what God has called you to do, right?

Yeah, 100%. I believe that, and I operated from a place of that for a long time. And there's— it was just gross. It was, it was gross. I had to stop. I had a pastor once tell me, if you continue at this rate, you will not make it another year. And that was in '06.

Wow. Which means you were not even 30.

Are you 30? My age matter? I'm just kidding.

I'm just saying it matters if somebody's telling you that you're in your 20s.

No, I wasn't. I wasn't Yeah, that's major. And trying to be everything to everybody, and I'll make this person happy, and I'll do this song this way for them, and I'll make it, and I'll go fly here 7 times to do this, and I'll go— it's like, no, no, no, no, no, that's, that's, that's not gonna work.

I'll tell you what, I'm glancing over here because I'm looking at, um, just the questions and comments, and there's a lot of, uh, people that are resonating with your thoughts about peace and chasing Why can't I see them? Because I'm big time and I have a second screen over here. Oh, I can't— I haven't figured out all that. I'm techie, but I'm not there yet. So I have to have a second screen. But, you know, a lot of people saying, okay, yep, we're all human. I understand what you're saying. Yes, chasing peace, needing a soft place to land. So there's lots of people that are resonating. But one person said, how do you know when it's time to talk to someone else? Even if you're talking to God? When is it time to invite a counselor into that conversation? When God, even though he is enough, he's given us people to help.

I mean, I'll go back to my gymnast friend. She's an elite gymnast. So a lot of people will be like, you could tell yourself how to do that, you could, you could tell yourself how to make this skill better. But a second set of eyes, even with the best person in the world to be able to tell you the minutia of what needs to be fixed in order for you to be back on your feet. So that varies, but I'm telling you, even the best people who have it all together, like an elite gymnast who has medals, doesn't need help per se. But I think everybody from the beginner all the way up to her, I believe, needs it. So I don't think— if there is something in your life that you're like, this isn't worth going to counseling about, it's just I lost my job and I'm sad about it or whatever, I'm— if it's, if it's where— if it's weighing you down, if the way you're built you're taking that in and it's messing up your day and you can't— I, I never think there's, there's— I will never think there's anything wrong with going and talk— talking to somebody. So it varies, it really varies depending on your makeup. My dad though, our dad, he can handle it, right?

Just talk to your dad. That's what somebody's thinking, just talk to your dad, which we, we can do that.

But I'm saying our dad, his His capacity for handling things is way high. Like, he can— he wouldn't have to talk to somebody as soon as I would. So it's very hard for me to say, when this happens, that's when you go. Because the way you're built and what you're designed to carry might be different than what— than what a Tony Evans was made to carry.

And I'm sure we have people watching from, you know, all walks of life and their access to a counselor, whether that be knowing where to go or having the money to go. They may feel like that's a prohibitive factor. So to the person who's going, okay, I don't even know where to find one, or how would I afford one if I found one, but I'm in a rut and can't— like, what would you say to that person who's going, this sounds great, but there are—

I've talked to my counselor about that actually, because I've had friends who have asked me, yo, I want to go to counseling, but this is too much. It's a lot for me. Like, there are moments I'm like, yo, There are places, if you want it bad enough, there are places that will do it. There are places that are tiered based on income that are— you can go in there for $15 and you can, if you're struggling for $15, you can figure out a way in your life. If I want this bad enough, I'm gonna sacrifice this over here. I'm not gonna go to Chick-fil-A today. I'm gonna go to counseling instead and make Starbucks, whatever it is. Yeah, value our souls enough to make that sacrifice. But once you start doing it, you'll be like, oh, that was worth it. So if you want it bad enough, not everybody's got to go see Dr. Phil, you know what I mean? You don't have to go that hard. Not that I'm doing that, I'm just saying you don't have to go—

because you know that's what somebody heard, girl, he says he sees Dr. Phil.

There, there are tiers and levels, and you can make it happen if you, if you want it.

Let's talk a little bit about this whole launching, um, for you out of the— or not out of, but beyond the church bubble. So, uh, you know, The Voice, NBC's The Voice, was a big part of that, um, just in terms of who you got to meet and the, the exposure that you had. And you'd had great exposure and had— I think that's always one of the neat things for me to hear you talk about your experience with The Voice is that there, while there are a lot of different people who showed up to that show, not everybody was already doing it, you know, they're trying to do it. And so You showed up though. You were doing it like you had to clear your calendar to make room for the voice. But it did expand maybe your connectivity, maybe just people that you knew, places that you got to go. Was that weird going beyond the church bubble? Did you feel off sides doing that?

It was weird initially. Initially, I felt like, am I doing something wrong? And Daddy said something to me I will never forget? He said, well, a couple things. As long as you're not compromising your faith, go have a good time. As simple as that is, I was like, this is great. Because I had something in my head that your gift is made for the church. Nobody said that to me, but there was something about like, you now, you secular. Like, I felt— that's what I felt like. Say it again, say it again. No, secular. No, but I just thought, this is not And then Daddy said something else to me that was amazing. He said, "You are not salt of the shaker, you're salt of the earth." I was like, "Bye." Like, I'm gonna go do this. And I'm not gonna compromise my faith and go singing, you know, crazy stuff and go on some other whole tangent. But I had conversations that are actually discussed in the book in detail with people who— I didn't even know how to talk to people. Christina Aguilera had me over, us over for dinner. And on a Christmas thing, and she sat down next to me and was like, okay, what do you do? You're a worship leader. What's that? And I started talking in a way that I was like, yo, you don't know how to talk to people who don't go to church. If I was not a churchgoer listening to you talk, I'd be like, he's in a cult. Like, that's what you think you're using and the way you're communicating. And I thought, it's a shame to me that I spent my whole life within the church walls. There's nothing wrong with being in those walls, but not taking the message out so much so that you're comfortable with conversations like this. That was shocking to me that I didn't— that was shocking to me that I wasn't ready for that. Because you think you are, actually.

If you're in church, all of the things that you've been learning to prepare you for the world is still Christianese, though. It's still— don't you think that? So you think you're ready to have conversations, but you're only having them from the point of view you've been given. And it doesn't mean it's wrong, it just means everybody doesn't speak that way.

One-dimensional point of view. And, and living here in LA shows me that there are so many dimensions of people who don't know what I'm talking about. So they have to see what I'm talking about and experience what I'm talking about in their life. And me walking into their life and telling them everything that's wrong with them is not the way that, that, that gets done and done well. So I'm very thankful to The Voice for the opportunities it's given me on stage and broadening things and doing I've done so many different things here in LA as it relates to TV and film, but I'm also very grateful for the fact that it's broadened my point of view off the stage, and that's a lot of times what people won't see. I won't ever forget being at The Voice and doing all the interviews for the stage, and our interviews for TV packages, and there was hours of interviews, but only like a 3-minute package was on TV. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I thought about how much of the footage that was on the cutting room floor people didn't get to see, where I was talking about God or talking about faith or whatever, they got to see what I did on TV and they all thought, "He's trying to be an R&B artist now." If they could have seen what's on the cutting room floor, they would understand the whole story, but they haven't and they're making judgment calls on what they see. And I thought about how many times I walk into somebody's life and start making judgment calls on what I see, but I don't know what's on the cutting room floor.

You don't know what's on the cutting room floor.

Right, 'cause I'm not the director. So I don't get to make calls based on me seeing all the footage. I get to make calls based on what the clips I've been shown. I get to go, okay, I don't know what's on the cutting room floor. I'm gonna, you know, love them in spite of what I may not know and let God, the ultimate director, figure out where things need to be placed and how it's going to go from here. And, um, that has helped me in my journey out.

You're a great illustration giver, by the way. Um, renewed faith. This idea of doubt also implies that if you still love Jesus that there is a renewal of faith. Um, how— give me an idea, um, and I know that there are probably numerous you can choose from, of a place or a point in time when you've needed your faith renewed. Why was that, and what did that renewal look like? So we talked about the renewal of you, your soul, counseling, being honest But what has the renewing of your faith— when did you need it and what did that renewal look like?

I needed it a few different times. One of the times I can think about is in Nashville when I was going through the industry thing and when I was having— I had people in my life who had no business being there, people who I trusted because they were Christian and artists and all this stuff. And I'm like, what is happening right now? That's— and I got to a place in my faith, my faith was just a mess, and I was now just working working, like getting on planes to go lead worship because it was work, and it wasn't out of a spirit of this is what's really going on in my life. To be honest, that's what, that's what was going on. And I had to— my renewal of faith in that moment looked like you need to stop, you need to sit down, and that's what's going to give you a renewed faith, not continuing. Like, I really— I— we grew up in a house where things work is continuing on in ministry. That, that's what the capacity that my dad had, my mom had I don't have that. So I'd be okay with the fact that I'm not built like my dad and, and, um, are like our dad, which a lot of times— just a little side tangent— being our dad's son sometimes is like being the son of Michael Jordan. Everybody expecting you to be able to dunk from the free throw line because your dad can, and that is a pressure that is just there. People— nobody's saying anything. Your dad's not saying dunk from the free throw line, and the audience isn't saying you can do it, but in your mind, you know, everybody's like, I can't wait to see what he's going to end up being able to to do because of the DNA that's in me. And in my head, I'm thinking, y'all be lucky to get a layup out of me. Like, lucky, you know what I mean? A spiritual— you know, my— so I have had to realize that, okay, Anthony, you're built this way. Your dad can dunk from the free throw line spiritually. You're gonna work on layups today. That— and so for me to renew myself spiritually meant I'm gonna slow down. I'm gonna stop trying to accomplish what I see around me. And I'm gonna be okay with the fact that I need a second. And it was very much me being authentic with people around me. This book is built on authenticity, vulnerability, transparency. Those three things, when you go in and give the raw materials of what you have to work with, that's when something real can be built.

Mm-hmm.

That is where the renewal came for me, was slowing down and understanding that when you say no to something, you're also saying yes to something else. Every time I said no to an event or no to getting on a plane, I was saying yes to me being spiritually better so that when I get on a plane and go stand on the stage, it's from a place of authenticity and not from the guy who grew up in church and knows all the right things to say from the stage.

So renewal of your faith was in the stopping. What was the building of the faith in the stopping? I mean—

Oh yeah, it was just the basic, the stuff that we— you know, when people ask you, How did you— or what'd you do to lose weight? It always boils down to I ate less and I moved. And I— right. That's what it always boils down to. You can buy this gadget, you can buy that gadget, you can get on this meal plan. The bottom line is, is put your fork down and get up and go walk somewhere. So that is what worked for me. There was no anecdotal, anecdotal thing. There was no like, I bought this book and I read this and I sat on a mountain for 3 days a week. No, I just Got quiet, spent time with the Lord, and that was it. I just slowed down and started saying yes to myself and no to things that were causing disturbance.

What does it look like for you to spend time with God?

What does that look like? For me, because I'm all over the place, it's very much like after Priscilla, our sister, after she did the movie War Room, I was really like, oh, yay, she did a movie. I hope this is good so I don't have to lie to my sister and say she did a good job. That's how I felt going into it. But then toward the end of it, I was like, oh, this is really good. I feel like I'm going to be changed when I leave here. But I don't have a war room because I'm always gone. I don't have a place where I'm always in. Even when I'm home, that's not— I'm here for 3 days, gone tomorrow. So I made it a conscious effort to take my war room with me, like in a binder that's sitting right here, make sure I take that with me. And that becomes my thing on a plane or whatever. And just quieting myself, talking to the Lord as I drive. Um, you know, it, it just looks different. There's no formula, and this is how it goes for me.

Um, Contessa is asking if the book is gender-focused, like, is it more geared towards a man or a woman? No. So it's for anybody? Yeah, it's for anybody. Okay, okay. Um, I think that Your authenticity is, um, well, first of all, I, you know, being your sister, I mean, I know you, but it's funny, like you were saying you watched the movie and you were like, okay, I hope this is good. I came to our church, you were speaking at a singles thing, I think that we had a singles conference, and I was sitting in the balcony like listening to you speak and I was thinking, he's really good. Like, but, but the, but the great part of you speaking was the authenticity. It keeps coming back to that— your willingness to say it. Yeah, whatever.

Yeah, I just— there's, there's enough pretense there. That pretense doesn't need to be brought to the table as it relates to Christendom anymore. And I'm not pointing fingers at anybody or saying anything. I just don't— I just don't think that's a healthy thing.

I feel so So what about the people who say, but wait, but you know, if you have Jesus, there should be victory in Jesus. Like, you should be able to overcome. There should be it. So if you keep talking about your weaknesses or your struggles, then you're actually watering down the work of God in your life. So for somebody who would say that, because there are those, what would you say to that?

I would say that if you read the book, I land at redemption almost every chapter I land at some lesson God taught me through something hard. So it's not about ignoring the power of God to work in your life. It's about how we ignore our starting point and act like we didn't start at a place of complete deficit in order to end up where God wanted to take us. And us starting up here when the reality is down here means that there's a gap for people who are built like me, and we are down here. And we're like, why is everybody starting from up here? I need somebody to tell me the truth about them starting from down here. Mm-hmm. I can bring you up here, if that makes sense. Yeah. And I'm talking to myself too. Like, I want— if I do another book, I want it to go to another level of authenticity and vulnerability. I was challenged last night by a friend of mine. It's just like, keep that up, keep that up, because there are so many people who need to hear that. And now that you're in a position where you can say it to more than a couple people at a time, Like, don't— please don't start doing the suited and booted kind of talking. Yeah, you know.

Yeah, no, that's good. That's good. Um, someone said— Lisa said, I always walk away from conversations you have, Chrystal, feeling more normal as a Christian. But they're saying that, of course, in response to you. I'm repeating the title of the book right now. It goes on sale tomorrow everywhere books are sold, because someone's saying, what book are we talking about? It's Unexpected Places by Anthony Evans Jr. He's a book writer too now. That makes all of us, we've all written books now.

Gross, it's so gross because listen, the pressure that comes with having you and Chrystal Hurst as sisters and Jonathan as a brother and Tony Evans and Lois Evans as parents, I'm like, let me sing. I will sing, I carved out my niche as a singer. When I got asked to write a book, all I thought was, oh, y'all meant to call my dad. Y'all meant to call Tony Evans. Y'all don't mean Anthony Evans, because that— it's a lot of pressure. But I feel like walking into that, which a lot of this book is about walking past your fears into faith and choosing courage over comfort and all that stuff, that it's given— I've noticed now that even though we all are writers, there's a specific voice on this that's—

OK, well, let's have this conversation, because you and I have had it a little bit. I think that's interesting. 'Cause I don't think I've ever heard you express that, that it's like, okay, the pressure of, you know, that we know that there's this pressure, Tony Evans' son, but pressure of having siblings that are doing stuff, you know, whatever that looks like for each sibling. Talk about that for a minute, 'cause I've never actually heard you say that, and it didn't even occur to me. It just occurred to me like, okay, you're a singer, You're an artist, you do your music thing, and oh, you just decided to write a book.

So— Right. No, it's a challenge to just be excellent because everybody in our family is pursuing excellence at what they do. And so I don't ever look at it because it's family. So I never look at your accomplishments or Chrystal Hurst's accomplishments or Jonathan's and kind of get like—

It's not a competitive thing. You just feel the—

Come correct, 'cause everybody else in your family is. That's the bottom line. It's just a challenge to myself to come correct. Like, don't, you know what I mean? And I, as soon as I knew that I could do it and had the team around me to help me do it, then I was ready to come correct. I just had to think about it for one second.

You were like, wait a minute, you talking to me?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me get it together, 'cause I know my family will read this and be like, boo.

Which we wouldn't say it like that. We wouldn't just be like, boo.

I mean, yeah, y'all be nice, but be like, that's— it was not good. Don't put that out.

Okay, so I think it's interesting though, we talk about pressure from Tony Evans, pressure, however we want to describe that, from siblings, and how everybody's doing stuff in excellence, because I mean, I do feel that too. Um, but you with the self-doubt with the struggles, with the— I, you know, do the counseling if I need to, if I need to do the meds, if I— I need to be authentic. I need to tell people where I'm struggling to show them the gap between my need and what God supplies. All that is great. But a lot of people don't have that story because of the pressure they got from their parents or of the fact that they feel that they can't measure up in their family or, you know, whoever else that is. The pressure is consuming. It's consuming and It is like a tsunami. And they don't— I think it's actually— I wouldn't say odd, but it's interesting that you've been able to feel all that pressure from everywhere and keep reaching because a lot of people don't. They just crumble. And why do you think that that's been your story and maybe not someone else's? Who goes, yep, I had a good setup too, I just couldn't take it.

Right. Well, I, for me, I think the greatest example has been our parents of having all the— especially now when I look back at what our parents built in a time where they were the only ones. There wasn't like, uh, you know, in worship there wasn't like Anthony Evans and Travis Greene and Israel Houghton, like people who were all doing the same thing. It was like Tony Evans was the only Black pastor being broadcast on majority predominantly white radio, and he was the only one standing, um, in a lot of different scenarios. I don't want to name all the scenarios, but he had this thing about it like, nope, this is what I'm called to do, I'll be right here. And it wasn't about— it was just like, this is who I am authentically, this is the way that I preach, this is the way that I deliver, I'm not going to manipulate it. If you want to play it, great. You don't want to play it, you want to play He wasn't— he was just like, this is what I'm called to do and I'm going to keep walking. And I've watched my dad when he chooses courage over comfort, when he chooses faith over fear, which are a couple of the chapter names. Mm-hmm. I've watched it work. And I think subconsciously watching that so much and seeing that happen, that's what happens with me. I may have a pause in me of like, ah, this is not what I do, but give me a minute and I'll figure it out. That's how I feel. And I've also watched— I talk a little bit in the book about a lesson I learned on a plane, as random as this is. I fly a lot, and actually literally have to pack after I get off with you and leave. But I have a bunch of miles, but I've also become a little bit of an entitled flyer. Like, when I hear the seatbelt message and the put your computers away, I just wait. I'm like, they talking to other people.

Well, I know, you know how this really works.

Yeah, belts are not attached to the engine. Y'all will be fine. Like, if you don't buckle your seatbelt, they can still start the engine. So that's what I was thinking. The flight attendant gave—

if you keep texting until they hit 10,000 feet, you're really okay.

Yeah, like that, that kind of stuff is what I was doing. So flight attendant came by and gave me the— you know, this was back when every flight attendant was really irritated for some reason. There was a couple years where everybody was just mad. So she was not very patient with me, but I also wasn't listening to her, so it's not her fault. And then she asked me for the third time, she got down in my face like a kindergarten teacher. Like, sir, she didn't know who she was dealing with, right? But listen, what she said though, because she shut me down— I was rising up and she shut me down because she said, you have asked us to take you to a destination and we cannot take you there until you buckle that seatbelt. Now I know buckling your seatbelt seems really like it doesn't matter, but you have asked us to take you to a destination, and until you do that thing that seems so dumb to you We can't take you where you ask us to take you. So I thought, oh, there have been— I don't know how many times in my life and in the life of the people reading this book where God is asking them to do something that's seemingly inconsequential, and they do not know that that buckling of that proverbial buckling of the seatbelt in their life is going to not only get them taking off to where they ask God to take them in the first place, but also the people who are with them. It's going to get them to the destination that that they're intended to go. And that all comes through you being obedient. So I look at my dad, our dad, doing that our whole life, of him doing the inconsequential buckling of seat belts in different scenarios. And it not only got him to 30,000 feet on his way to destinations, we were with him. We were sitting next to our dad in life. And every time he did that, that is why I sit here now with records and books. And I don't mean that as I'm accomplishing things. I mean, The courage it takes to go do that stuff was because he was obedient in the seemingly insignificant, and I want to be like him and our mom.

That's, that's great. So your buckling of the seat belt to get where you want to go, give— can you tell me what has the buckling of the seat— give me like, what has— what have you had to actually buckle down with?

Oh man, trying to think of a so many specific examples where I took a chance. Career-wise, I took a chance on my third album. I got dropped from my record label after my second album because I— I took a— did an album, second album, I did it even more cookie-cutter, let's make this sound like Nashville. Right, right. I got dropped after that album. Not— I'm not— because it didn't work. And I could have made a decision right there to be done. I could have let the industry say, you're not going to be a professional singer. Like, you're not going— worship leader. But I was like, hmm, okay, now I'm going to get my friends together that God has introduced me to without an executive around me. Nobody around me is saying this is going to be this and that. And I'm going to go into a room and I'm going to sing my heart and do it with these people who know me. And that was my first number one album. That I remember, number one. I had friends being like, congrats, Anthony. I was like, about what? What you talking about? I didn't know. And that actually, me being obedient in that time of— 'cause I was devastated, honestly, to hear you're gonna get dropped from a label where your friends are and everything. It's like, it's a weird, weird feeling. Yeah. But that was an industry kind of obedience, but that also led me to the worship leader you know now is because I stopped trying to be all that. The guy who gets to lead events with you and with Daddy and Chrystal Hurst and all that stuff, that's because I stopped trying to be So that little act of obedience led me to a whole, a whole thing that I didn't know would be there if I would have kept trying to do that or stopped after that happened. And another buckling of the seatbelt is Anthony— God saying to me, Anthony, be honest. Like, you have to be honest. Me going to counseling, me going— being super honest and having amazing close friends around me. Those moments are all buckle seatbelt moments where I have experienced so much healing in my life. Because I buckled my seatbelt in that area, I would never trade it. Like, I'm, you know, the view you get sometimes from plane windows where you're flying over Yosemite or whatever and you're like, yo, this is so beautiful. I may not have landed at the destination in a lot of cases, but because I buckled my seatbelt, I see these beautiful views on all these different journeys. And that to me has been well, well worth it. So you do that enough times and then you're like, okay, Where we going? Click. You know what I mean?

What do you say to the person who's trying to figure out— and from your vantage point, from your story, you said faith over fear, courage over comfort. That sounds great. But sometimes knowing when to make the move of faith and when to take a step of courage, it's a risk. It's a calculated risk. And sometimes there are risks to take. And sometimes there are risks— not to take right now? How do you know the difference? Particularly not just in your personal life spiritually, but even in business. I mean, to do what you do, which is not just singing and not just writing music, but you are producing, um, not just your own projects but, you know, events, and it's— there's a lot of risk-taking. How, how do you know when to go, when to jump?

I feel like, again, it's subjective, but when God kind of places all the tools around you and it makes sense. Like it, when it, well, sometimes it doesn't make sense. A lot of times it doesn't make sense. Let me back up on that one. Sometimes what doesn't make sense to other people can make sense to you and the people around you that know you, know your specific circumstance. I would never say just lean on your own understanding and just kind of do it, do it because you think so. No, if you voice that to people around you and they're like, I get it. It doesn't make all the sense in the world, but we understand what God's called you to do and we get it. Then I would, I would then proceed, proceed until there's a hard stop. But I believe that most of the time when God puts you in scenarios like that where you're set up to move in a direction, he's not doing it to walk you off the ledge of a cliff unless he wants to show you what it feels like, what his parachute feels like. You know what I mean?

That's so good. Did you write that in the book?

No, I just made that up.

Oh, then you need to— okay, we, you know, we're at like 7:51, so like back up 10 minutes when this ends and put— write that down. Um, I want to ask you, because, you know, I'm looking at some of the comments and a lot of people are saying, okay, what do you do, you know, to get back up? And well, that's great because, yep, you are in a family of excellence, so that makes sense for you.— and not being said in a nasty way, just kind of like, oh, OK, well then that makes sense why there was a knowledge that you had or an ability that you had to bounce back, however that bounce was enabled through counseling or your decisions or whatever. So how can your story, as we watch you live and as we follow you on social media and now as we read your book, how can your story be an encouragement to me or to her or to him if they don't have your setup? You know, they don't have the dad who taught them about Jesus. They don't have the family who is, um, you know, is pursuing excellence. They, they don't— they haven't figured out where the counselor is. They didn't have the, the big break or the introduction to certain people. They're, they're just like, you know what, I, I just see doors all around me and they're all closed, or I came out of that door and it wasn't good. What do you say to that person? How will your book help them?

There's a couple chapters in the book where I talk about my years with Kirk Franklin. And people can look at Kirk Franklin now or in the past few years and be like, oh, he doesn't have any problems. He was the number one this and the number one that. This man was given up when he was 4 years old on the doorstep of somebody who was old enough to be his grandmother. He had every reason growing up to go left and do whatever. But I watched him. He came into our lives 20 years ago. And I've watched him pursue what he did not have. I've watched him, and I get it, and all that stuff, I get that. But he wasn't doing it out of, I'm Kirk Franklin. He was doing it out of, I don't have this and I need to figure out ways to pursue what I don't have and watch God make up the difference. And I've watched— I have— yep, yep. Well, we may come from Tony Evans, Lois Evans, but my grand— our grandfathers didn't have this. Our grandparents made decisions to pursue what they didn't have, and that's why we're sitting here having this conversation today. So yes, it is harder, and some of us feel like we're starting from a deficit, but the things that will be built inside of you as it relates to pursuit won't be built inside of me that I will need from you, and vice versa. So that's good. Yeah, that, that's, that's my answer to that. It's after Kirk, I'm like, well, anybody can, because he had every reason to be like, I was giving up, nobody loves me. I my mom, my mom who raised me passed away. I didn't like all these things like stack, stack, stacked on top of each other. And he pursued what he didn't have.

Yeah, that resonated with a lot of people. Just pursue what you do not have. Pursue what you do not have. I was about to say, this is what you do. I mean, there's a lot of, a lot of resonation with that. Is that a word? Did I make that up? Is resonation even a word? Resonance. So there's a lot of resonance with that. Thank you. You know how you know you just made up a word and you're like, that wasn't, that wasn't it. Are you doing anything to celebrate the release of your book?

You know what, tonight I am. I'm here in Los Angeles before I fly out tomorrow to do a bunch of stuff, and my friends were like, you cannot release a book and not get together. So yeah, friends, and, um, just down the street, and gonna hang out on a rooftop and, and get to, you know, just, just celebrate. What I love is that a lot of my friends here aren't from church. They're not churchy friends. They just want to celebrate this guy that they know has faith and they— a lot of them, some of them are church, but some of them aren't. They're just like, we want to come and celebrate you and what we see happening in your life as it relates to your faith. And I feel like that is the ultimate— that's the beginning of what that looks like to me, for people to just to be drawn to what God's doing in your life.

That's so true. That is so true. Okay, so a question I've seen a million times on here: are you going to talk about relationships as it relates to because everybody's trying to understand what you're doing as a single man in your 30s.

Yeah, hold on one second. Before you say that, I just want to finish this other thought really quick.

Yep, finish it.

People have— I just said people want to— people are drawn to what God is doing in you. And in my mind, I just thought, people have to be drawn to what God is doing in you before they can be drawn to what God could do in them. And a lot of times we don't— that's not our starting point. It's us telling people what God could be doing in their life but that's not what's going to draw them into actually wanting to experience it.

And so, you know, yeah, so but somebody, somebody's sitting here right now because they just got through studying the Bible verse that says, uh, I will draw all men unto me, that they're not being drawn to you and the God in you. They're being drawn— that he does the drawing and, you know, all of that.

But I think it's seeing what, seeing what he's done in you that could be a part of them drawing him. I'm not saying you're supposed to be sure— you're supposed to be living out what God has been doing in your life. And I believe that that is what draws. It's like somebody coming out of a movie and talking about how good it was, and you seeing that, oh my gosh, this movie changed me. You're like, I want to go see that. It's— it's right. It's right. No, it's not. I think we make a mistake and we'd be like, I'm gonna draw, I'm gonna draw them. No, no, right. They're gonna just watch and see, and God's gonna draw them. He got it. That's—

well, I mean, in the illustration you gave, it's because the movie is good that people are talking about it. It's, it's, it's a topic of conversation because the movie is what the movie is. So if God is who he is and that's just reflected in you, reflected in your exuberance about your faith, reflected in what God is doing in your life, reflective, uh, reflected in how you're talking about him, that's still only reflective of the movie being good, of him being who he says he is, right? So Anyway, so moving on.

I'm sorry. That's okay.

That was good. It was worth coming back to. So the question is, is there going to be any talk about relationships, you in relationships, in your book? That's the bottom line from the 30 different times it's been asked.

There's talk about hurtful things that have happened relationally in my life, and then there's some talk of that. But as you know, I'm a very much— I'm very like private about certain things in my life.. And I think that that's okay for me to be that way. So there's, there's talk of it, but sometimes I believe that people cross the threshold of things that could be helpful for them to know, and they just want to know things they just want to know. And I'm like, I'm, you know what I mean? I'm, I don't, I don't do that as much. I don't really, I love talking to my family and my close friends about the depths of me relationally. I'm like, this book isn't about that. I would if I wrote a relationship book, but I didn't.

Maybe you will. Do you think you'll write another book? Like, is there anything in you that goes, you know what, I could do that again?

Yeah, there is something in me. Let's see how tomorrow goes.

Well, I, I think that, um, one thing that you just said, I've got to ask you this question because we've talked so much about authenticity. And you even said the three spokes. I forgot one of the three, but I do know that one was authenticity, one was transparency, and then there was a third one. Vulnerability.

Say it again, what is it? Vulnerability.

Okay, vulnerability. So those three things, for with the need that we have for people to be authentic, we need, we want to know their stories. Uh, you know, I just said this earlier today, Romans 12, not Romans, Revelation 12:11, we overcome by the blood of the Lamb, by the word of our testimony, that what we share, uh, matters. Our stories matter. Drawing that line though between authenticity and what people get to see about your life because of social media, because of now what they're going to read in a book. And you don't even know all of that. Like, how do you draw that line? Because a lot of people want to know, whether it's giving their testimony or if it's writing a book or if it's sharing in between songs during a worship set, how far to take that authentic, transparent vulnerability line when they want to do the good part of that but don't want to overdo it. Right.

You take it to the point where it's beneficial, and then there comes a point where this isn't beneficial. This is neither here nor there. It's not necessary. This is not beneficial, and this isn't helping me get to the final point and going to move it in somebody's life. And I feel like a lot of times you have to get that, get to those conclusions, come to those conclusions again by people around you, wise counsel, because sometimes you'll be like, this is worth telling, I'm gonna say it, and people are like, no, no, no. Hold on, that's not it. And if they're saying it from a place of really being about the end and not about how it may affect them or what all this stuff, no, if they're really about like the end of this is, this is your goal, this is gonna be the best way to get there, and these are the things you need to bring in or alleviate. I feel like that is a very important thing. Even if you're gonna have, I mean, an important conversation with somebody, I'm not mad at bouncing what you're gonna say off before you say it to even one person. Much less thousands.

What is the one— I asked you at the beginning of our conversation what one word you would use to describe the book, what people would get out of the book. But in terms of that's what they're getting from you, what do you hope they walk away with? That they close the book, they've read the words, the micro chapters, it's readable, they've made it through, they actually finished it. Because it was good and it was very easy to make it through. And they close it, they put it down, and they're telling somebody else about it because of how it moved them or helped them or opened their eyes to something. What do you hope people say?

In one word?

No, you don't have to say in one word. Just what is their— when they walk away from the movie of the book, to go back to that illustration, and they're talking about it, What do you hope people are saying about what they've gotten from your words, from your heart?

I read Anthony's— I read this story, and I came out of it feeling like there is hope for whatever in my life that needs to change. And there's hope in the things in my life that actually seem hard right now, because I know that there is a story that will be able to be told out of the hard things in my life. So the bottom line is hope is the one word. And then hope for all those different reasons. Like, I'm not alone in this feeling. The worship leader that just came and sang at my church dealt with depression, or I'm not alone in going through this broken engagement because he just told me about his. I'm not, you know, those kind of things. And that to me perpetuates a hope.

I love it. So hope even from hard places, whether they're expected or not. I love it. And I love you. And I'm very proud of you. Thank you. And I'm very excited that you made a little time before your launch party. Big music executive producer, event coordinator slash mogul slash now author, speaker. Now you put more pressure on me.

No, it's okay. No pressure.

No, let me tell you what's pressure. What's pressure is looking at your laid bachelor pad and looking at my office. It's clean. Your stuff is just clean. Just— well, have you put any Joanna Gaines in there? Because you just discu— you didn't know Joanna Gaines was at Target?

No, not until I went to Nashville to help.

Well, now you know. But that's what your house looks like. It just looks ready for Joanna to come in and add a touch. Oh, great. I need to have somebody clean, clean this out before we can do But anyway, it's okay.

It's okay. You have 3 of my nephews living in the house.

Well, thanks again and congratulations. I'm so excited for you. Someone says, we're all so proud of you. Someone said, I just caught the last few minutes. This is so good. I'm going to have to go back and watch the whole thing. Excited to read your book, Hope for the Hard Places, The Blessing in the Pit. Got all the people ready, ready, ready, ready. So y'all be ready, go buy the book. And then after you read it, be sure, and wherever you buy it from, tell your friends, talk about it, definitely write a review on Amazon or Barnes Noble or wherever you happen to buy the book so that other people will hear your excitement about it and go, hmm, maybe I need to check out this book because here's what I know. I've read the book, I've also watched my brother live And this book is worth reading because his life and the lessons that he's learned, as you can already tell by listening to how great he is with his words and illustrations, his life and the lessons he's learned are worth your time and energy to learn from too. So excited for you and can't wait for other people to get a close-up and personal view of your words.

Thank you. Appreciate it.

All right, you guys, we will talk to you later. Hope you've enjoyed it. Be sure and share this video and leave us comments below. Take care. Bye.