Walking in Freedom with Titia Owens

Are we live? Yay! Hey, who is— hi y'all! So, uh, I am here with my friend Leticia, uh, who is a self-proclaimed member of the Evans family.

I am. She is adopted a long time ago.

And let's see, I have known you since before you got married. Since before I got married. But how long before that?

Well, I came to the church in '96, so you've known me.

So I've known you since you've been at the church. So I know Tisha for so many reasons. I know her because we have a million mutual friends.

Yes.

Uh, I mean, apart from you being my friend, we have a million mutual friends. Correct. You have been, uh, the decorator of parties.

I have.

And houses.

I have.

You have been the makeup artist.

I have.

You did my makeup for my wedding.

I did.

You do hair.

I do.

You are an artist.

I am.

You sew. You sing.

Uh-huh.

In fact, your business name, or at least one of your business names, is Tisha's House of Trades because she basically does everything and she does it all well. Isn't she beautiful?

Oh, gracias. See? I like it. I save it. I just dust it off.

And you look amazing. I can't do what she does. I can't do what she does.

So anyway, but I was trying to at least be a little ready. You look beautiful.

I didn't have the curls, but I have a little shake. I got a little shake.

Butterific.

So, but because I have sat in a chair multiple times getting my makeup done, my hair done, talking about plans for decorating, whatever, for throwing the party, for whatever, we've had a chance to talk.

Yes.

Because when you— and even apart from that, I have called Tisha many times and said, I just need to run this by you.

Um, so eyebrow sharpening.

Yeah, but to raising kids.

Yeah.

Uh, marriage. And Tisha, uh, whether you welcome it or not, is the queen of I'm about to speak truth into your life right now.

Amen.

Because, uh, life is too short for me not to. And she'll listen to you and she'll be like, like what she's doing right now. Yeah, she'll do all that. And then she'd be like, well, let me just tell you something. So Tisha has been a very good friend.

Thank you.

And when I thought about who could sit and chat with me, and we're going to do this a little different because normally I'm the one asking all the questions and making the statements. Well, Tisha has been on a few red carpets herself.

I have.

And don't give her a mic or any camera time. This is the toned down version. I just need you to know this is the toned down version. So she is going to put me in the hot seat a little bit. Yes, I am. I have no idea what's coming. So y'all just pray for me. But first of all, I want to say that when I think of freedom, yes. And as you and I, we talked about before, we've been talking about freedom this month. So we've talked a lot about what it means to be free from things that a lot of people struggle to talk about. Yeah. Particularly people who love God. Because in church, even though you're supposed to be loved in church, people still do give you a little judgmental eye about certain things.

Very true.

And so people don't want to talk about abortion. They don't want to talk about their addictions to any kind of substance. They don't— it's difficult sometimes to seek help. Yeah, because if your husband is, um, struggling with pornography, yeah, how do you tell on him so y'all can get some help without telling on him?

Exactly.

And, you know, having him naked in the streets, but you're going crazy. So talking about that, but when I think about freedom, yeah, first of all, let me just say you are free to be you.

Yes, I am.

So let me start with that. I just want to ask you, why do you— because it's kind of your personality. You've always just kind of been— but have you ever been made to feel by other people some kind of way about your design?

Yes.

Because you are totally extroverted. Not that you don't come back to the house and hold it down.

Right.

You're totally extroverted. You never meet a stranger.

Right.

And you were always at least on 10. 10 is not the top for you.

Most of the time.

Right. So why have you been able to be comfortable, particularly when there may have been times in your life when people have said to you, just calm down, or don't take all that, or you don't have to start with that?

Well, I remember growing up as a young person, my mom traveled a lot when we were kids. She was gone a lot of the time, and my brother and I were home quite a bit. So we did a lot of entertaining ourselves. And I think from that, having so much time together— and I was one of those people that loved people, like, loved being around them, loved making them laugh. And I watched a lot of television. So television really influenced my personality because when I sat up at night watching Carol Burnett And she was so funny.

And she was herself.

Yeah, she was herself. She was funny. So I would go to school the next day and imitate her, do her routine, do her whole routine.

Some of y'all don't remember Carol Burnett. They don't remember.

No, they don't.

And we were lucky. We got to stay up and watch Carol Burnett because she came on late at night. She did.

She came on at 10:30 after the news.

After the news.

But because I put myself to bed, I would leave my television on so I could stay up to watch Carol Burnett. And I literally would be her the next day at school. And again, I saw the response of the classroom. They would be crying laughing, or they asked me to do it again. Even the teachers would say, do it again, because they were watching it too.

They were laughing too.

And they thought it was so funny that I imitated her so well. And so that started me just kind of realizing that I like to make people laugh and I liked being funny. I liked seeing reactions from people in a positive way. So it was a natural thing because I didn't know that was going to be my response. I just knew I loved Carol Burnett and I knew that I wanted to have that red hair. Yeah. And my hair, I loved her hair too. Like, I love color. So that's another thing. And that's the thing. So that started me kind of learning myself and being more bold or whatever. So over time, of course, that got larger and larger. But in my first marriage, my first husband, always wanted to calm me down. Like, he would always say, you're too much, or you need to be more quiet, or you can't walk in here that loud. You know, everything was come down, come down, come down. I didn't understand that. And, and I tried it. I tried it for a while. I, I tried to practice thinking about him, that he didn't want me to be loud, he didn't want me to do this, and he didn't want me to do that. But I found myself becoming more and more miserable at that same time because it was like I knew I wasn't feeling myself. And then I was so emotionally drained with my first husband that I started losing myself. You know, I started losing myself. I didn't know who I was anymore. I was kind of following after him, uh, to make sure he was happy. That was the thought process I thought I was supposed to have. And then at the same time, thinking I was making him happy, I was making him miserable.

Because, because you being less of yourself didn't make him more happy.

Yeah, it didn't make him more happy. But he couldn't tell me what it was that was making him feel this way. But I was trying to be this puppet of, okay, do I dance? Do I sit quietly? Do I fix my hair different? Like, I didn't know what I was supposed to be doing to make him feel good about me. So one of the things he used to tell me when we were married was, you need to go and get whole. He said that often, you need to go and get whole. I didn't know what he was talking about. I didn't understand that. That sounded very foreign to me. But at the end of our marriage and coming out of the marriage, when I started praying and spending more time with the Lord about the process of me losing my husband, I started understanding what go and get whole meant.

What does it mean?

It means to go find who you are in the Lord.

That's it. What does that mean?

That means to get to know the Lord personally where you don't rely on other people to make you smile, make you happy. Uh, you don't consider individuals the identity of your joy or why you're sad. They had too much control over what I was doing. I was giving it to him, but I wasn't really giving it to anybody else. It was really him. And so he was the one that made me see that he had control over my day-to-day. And so me finding the Lord for myself, it was something about like, I knew I knew the Lord, but I really had not built that relationship.

Well, I bet you the challenges with your husband probably pushed you into spending more time.

Oh, it did.

With him, which is always the thing people will say. You know, um, I want to, I want to feel closer to the Lord. But then if we look at how much time we're spending away from him, and it's usually the trouble of life that brings you to him, that shoots us into his presence because we're begging him to fix it, change it, or help us. Correct.

That's exactly what I'm doing.

Okay, but here's, here's what I want to know.

Yes.

You, you got married.

Uh-huh.

And you were you. I was. So before you got married, because somebody, somebody's wondering this, yeah, were there any clues that he wanted you to tone it down before you got married?

There were clues that he wanted me to tone it down. I just didn't know to the degree. And, and I didn't necessarily see that what he was asking for was too much in the beginning because it was subtle, right? You know, I couldn't see the big down the line, no, he wants you to change completely. I can see that.

So, and that's the thing I want to just say, if you're not married, whatever you get a glimpse of prior to, prior to marriage, it will be times 27 to the utmost in marriage. So when you have the little hints and you think that's, this really is not good, but you know, it's just a little bit and I can handle it, magnify.

Yeah.

It's just, so just take the hint. Yeah, take the hint. Um, okay, so somebody else is asking, uh, what led you to, uh, what led to the dissolve of your first marriage?

What led to the dissolve of my first marriage? We became so miserable with one another. We were trying, we were trying to out— trying to not love the other the most, trying to not love.

Y'all being mean to each other the most.

It wasn't even necessarily mean, it was just— it was, but like, I wasn't going no, or I wasn't being— you were shutting down emotionally, just shutting down. Just if I thought he wanted it, I'm not doing it. If I thought that—

because if you give it to him and then he doesn't want it, then there's the rejection that comes with that too. Yes. So I'm just not even gonna put myself out there.

Exactly. And I did— we were in competition on who was gonna do the less caring the most, uh, being divided, uh, whatever it was that could separate us, we were being the most at it.

But you wanted your marriage because I remember, uh, at the end of the marriage and then after the marriage ended, you were still praying.

I was.

I mean, for a while, for a long time, right? Yes. And we're speaking as if— yes, life and death. I'm gonna I'm gonna speak as if this is going to resolve again. So talk to me then about what does it mean to be free? Because you got a lot of women that outside of— it could be marriage or not.

Yes.

It could be just a relationship that they can't shake, either because they in and out of it. I mean, just tell the truth, shame the devil.

Right.

In and out of the relationship, in and out of his bed. I mean, I'm just saying.

No, I'm with you.

Because then you can sometimes call yourself not with somebody. Right.

Yeah.

Fellowship. Okay. I'm just saying. So y'all, come on now. Come on. Fellowship. All right. So being able to feel— and maybe feel isn't the right word, but sometimes it is— but to be done in a free sense. Not done in the lamentive, I'm still crying over it. I can't, you know, I was talking to somebody the other day and she literally was, was talking to, she kept saying her husband, but I was confused because she told me everything else was like she lived by herself. So, and then I just said, so how long have you and your husband been married? And what does he do? And cause I was just trying to understand.

Right.

And then she said, well, actually, uh, And this is how she said it. She said, actually, he's my, um— she couldn't even say it. And then she said, she said, I think that's actually the first time I've said it. And they were, you know, they had only been divorced maybe 3 or 4 months, but she said, I still can't even say it. So how did you— what did it take?

Yeah.

Uh, how long and what did it take for you to feel, act, and walk in the full freedom that you know that you should have had even going through that rough season. Because I mean, it was, it was long.

It was a long time. But this is the brutal honest truth. Brutal honest truth. I did not move on until he remarried. I held on and you were like, until it can't, until it can't anymore. I held on because I believed the Lord was going to restore my marriage.

You sure did.

And I was like, I'm standing here, I know he is. And you know, I even had another relationship before my ex-husband got remarried. But even in that relationship, I was telling him, I'm waiting for my ex-husband. He's going to some kind of way snap out of this and realize that I'm here. But it never happened. And I want to say, when I look back at it, I believe it was a rebellious act from my husband, my ex-husband, that even if he knew that was what he was supposed to do, he had decided, I'm not doing that. Because I really believe I knew we were going to be restored. But it did not happen that way. And I didn't, I didn't stop thinking any different until he remarried. That was the it for me.

But when he remarried, at that point, did you experience freedom or was it still a process?

It was still a process. I had been experiencing freedom, just working on myself gradually, gradually, even though, you know, time was moving on because years went by before he remarried. Years went by.

Yeah.

So at the same time—

this took a long—

it took a long time. It was over 7 years.

Yeah.

Yeah, it was over 7 years. So what I was doing was, at the same time, I, I heard him saying I needed to go get whole. So my thought process was, I need to go find out what that is. And I got— I became on that journey. I was that person that I started going to every therapy class, every counseling class, every—

did you do free last year? So we have recovery groups at our church for I mean, it runs the gamut for struggling with weight, divorce recovery, abortion recovery, any type of addiction. So you said you did all that?

I did all of them. I was at somebody's new class every time they started one because my thought process was, I want to get whole. What does that mean? I was still trying to figure that out. So I had to go through all these different thought processes and listen to find out what was I missing or what did I not know about myself? So how did I feel about things? Those were questions I never asked.

Okay, so I'm going to pause real quick.

Okay.

There is an episode on the podcast. This is YouTube, I know, but if you don't listen to the podcast and you missed the last one, which is episode 184, you can find it by going to chrystalevanshurst.com/184. Lynn Marie Cherry and her, uh, the work that she did for forgiveness, uh, for her husband's porn addiction. Okay. But here's what I want. I'm going to steal what she said and I'm going to say what she said to say what you're saying.

Okay.

She said, I decided I was going to go and get my healing even if I had to go by myself.

Yes.

And she was like, whatever it takes. Whatever it takes.

Yes.

Because I think a lot of times the struggle, whether you're married or divorced, but particularly if it's a freedom from a relationship trauma issue.

Yeah.

You won't go get it until the other person either joins you or decides to go get it too, or even sanctions, right? Or approves you doing the work. So at a certain point you just said, you know what, I'm going to go and do the work because that's— I mean, you had to come every Monday night for a long time.

I did for months.

Yeah.

You know, months at a time. And then when the new season would start, I'd start back in again because my determination was for healing. It was for becoming whole. That's what he said.

So what did you learn? You went to all these classes. What was— what did you learn about being a whole person and what you needed to do to be a whole person?

The bottom line was my joy does not come from man, period. I felt I had to find peace, joy, and all these other things in a person. Not that those people can't bring those things, but my thought process was the person was the savior. I was giving them that authority to be my savior, to fix it, whatever I had going on. And so I had to find out that's not possible. They can assist, they can help with the healing. Like, they helped me to learn that other people helped. Yeah, other people helped.

But you just said something really key. You said you gave the authority to someone else, to someone else to be the savior. And, and you know what, that's really good. Stick a pin in that. Uh, you will always want a savior.

Yes, you will.

And you may even think that that savior is you, but you will always want someone else to sanction your life. And until you realize that you're the person that gives away the authority, and unless you're giving that authority to the Lord in your life, that's right. It's always the wrong person.

That's it.

That's it. And you can never be free until you're actually seeking freedom from the one who holds the keys. Well, and the only one that holds the keys is God, because he's the only one who knows you, who understands what you're supposed to be doing with your life, and everybody else is just guessing, including you.

So do you consider yourself free?

No.

And why?

I do not. Um, because I think that, well, first of all, I do think that freedom is a process.

Okay.

And I think you can realize at different points in your life, uh, when things happen in your life, it's not until you try to move that you realize that you can't move as far as you thought you wanted to. And so sometimes just because you got the chains off of your feet, that doesn't mean just because you stood up that you can swing your arms in a 360. And you don't realize that until you're trying to.

Wow.

So I do think, like, in my 20s, I think there was a level of freedom out of some relationship drama. I think in my early 20s, I think in my late 20s, it was a freedom from the limitations that I had put on myself about what I couldn't do. And a part of me having freedom from the relationship drama was me realizing that, that God had— that I had given the authority away. And God was like, what he encouraged me to do is, what were you doing before? Like, what were you doing before? And, and what did you stop doing because you gave somebody else the keys?

Yeah.

So then the next level of freedom was in my life, me getting back to the things that I was good at, getting back to the things that I loved, getting back to the things that I felt like God was calling me to do. So that was the next level of freedom. So then entered marriage, and then I didn't feel free because I felt very, you know, home with kids and diapers and, oh my gosh, cleaning crap out of the carpet. I mean, you know, girl, I was just— I remember the night that happened and I was like, you have got to be kidding me.

Yeah.

So then I'm feeling not free because literally I'm not free. I can't go nowhere. People are— I mean, that was— but I mean, that was very— because I had just— I just felt like I had fought my way out of of one level of freedom and found myself feeling caged in another season. And then I think, like, right now I would say that my struggle with freedom is being free to be me, because in this season of my life, me looks different. It looks different. And I'm getting acquainted— like, for example, there are things that I think are true about me, but I haven't exercised the muscle. So I'm exercising muscles and I haven't done them. And so, okay, so sorry, this is gonna make sense in a minute. So when I first came home from the hospital and the guy said, the doctor said to me, and I had not been able to walk on my foot because it was healing and an open wound was always for like 8 weeks. I had not been on the foot. So he said, you're looking good. Now you can put weight on your foot. Okay, go home, uh, put on your shoes, just start walking. That's what he said to me. You are free to start walking. I came home, I had the walker. I had to use the walker to get from the car in the house because I didn't have shoes on. I hadn't been wearing shoes. And then I put the walker to the side and I said, okay, I'm going to start walking. And I put weight on that foot. And this is what it felt like going up my leg. Because I hadn't been using it. So just because I was free to use it didn't mean that I was strong enough to use it the way I knew that I I could.

Yes.

So in this season, I mean, you've been in my life a long time, so you've seen me walk through a lot of different seasons.

Yes.

And you, you know the, uh, the stage Chrystal Hurst.

Okay.

And you know the, I will sit in a corner in a room full of people and not say a word. I do. And you'll be looking, and y'all know me, just be like, just, she all right. Um, so this season of my life has a lot more stage Chrystal Hurst, and I don't mean that in a fake way. I'm just saying the Chrystal that can come out, that can get out from under a blanket. And sometimes I literally have to remind myself that she's in there and that I have the right, that I have the right and that I am capable of doing the thing that's in front of me.

Amen.

Like, really not apologizing for or not hiding.

Exactly.

And so one of the things that is a challenge for me right now is I feel like because of the different seasons of my life, yeah, I have had different— people have experienced— I mean, it's almost like the schizophrenic version of Chrystal Hurst. People have experienced different versions of me.

Yeah.

So when I go to my kids' homeschool co-op and I'm with all my homeschool moms, yeah, that's not— that's not stage Chrystal Hurst.

Of course.

So it's very— sometimes I'm just trying to tone it down, and I find myself having to say It's okay. You don't have to tone it down. Right. Like, it's okay that you had a season of your life where all you were doing, um, and I loved it.

Yes.

Was schooling your kids. And that was the focus.

Yes.

And so now I'm still doing that, but I'm doing it differently because there are other things going on in my life. Some things that I— well, all things that I am, um, that I have the opportunity to do.

Yes.

And that I'm grateful to do.

Yeah.

Some things I have to do. Uh, and you see my house right now while we're in front of this camera. So you see what's really going on. And you know what I look like before I ran upstairs to put this on? You are mighty gorgeous. Okay. So, but I'm just saying, those are the versions. All the stuff on my kitchen table versus what I had on before I went and changed. Like, that is my life. And so sometimes when it's time for me to know that I've studied and I'm prepared to speak, to feel confident about what I'm writing on a page. Yes. To feel that, you know what, if nothing else, I have lived long enough to know, have a little common sense and a little wisdom, and to feel that I am that woman who can speak into the life of another woman.

Amen.

And have authority to call out some things that I see and not have to be apologetic.

Yes.

But I have to fight between I'm her and then maybe I shouldn't do that. You know, everybody else in this room has been doing this a lot longer than I have. Um, I'm not— I don't have those kinds of issues. That's why when I'm getting like, yeah, she talking about all You just went into church. That's all you did. You went to church. But I'm just saying, those are my battles. So like, you know, and I was telling a mutual friend of ours one time, I just said to her, you'll have to forgive me and one day I'll be able to explain it. And I'm working on the explanation for that. What I do know is that I feel it. And I will do— you'll just see me. And I had a friend one time, Heather McFadyen. We did a show recently on YouTube Live.

Hey, Heather.

Hey, Heather. She said to me— I told her, I said, there are two versions of me when I speak, right? And I'm trying to show up more to the one who I'm supposed to be and not the one that wants to pull me back. And then she saw me— she saw me speak in two different places, and she said to me, there are two of you.

Wow.

There are two of you. She said, so what makes the difference with the Chrystal that feels confident exactly and free to be silly or to make a mistake or to speak with authority. Why does she not sometimes show up?

Right.

I was like, because the other one says you're not supposed to be here. You're not supposed to be here. So when you ask me, am I free? That's still a battle.

Got it.

It's still a battle. And I still have to choose to release all the versions, not just the version that's been getting the muscle for the last 15 years. And the other version, which is, um, yeah, it's okay for you to have something to say.

And I can say to that, uh, we were at an event one night and we had to write down something that we hadn't shared with our friends and write it down, not putting your name on it, pass it around to a particular person in the room, and when they picked it up to read it, they had to minister to it. So my The one that I picked up—

that's deep.

Yeah. The one that I picked up, the person had written on theirs, I am afraid of causing my family to be upset with me. I'm afraid—

this is the one you picked up?

This is the one I picked up. And then they also said, I'm afraid I'm not good enough. And so when it got to me to communicate about that, my answer was, I don't know how to answer that because I'm not afraid of anything. Like, I could care less about— I care about what people think. Yes, I do, in the sense of mistreating a person, being compassionate, you know, in a godly manner. But I don't care.

Yeah, you— I have a high level of inhibition.

Yes. See, I don't have that.

My inhibition, like, on the, on the personality test, there's the DISC and the C is the caution one, right? My first is a D, the second is a C, but I practiced my C. The D I didn't practice. Got it. And, you know, even in— I'm gonna move this back because it keeps shaking, okay? And I keep thinking it's gonna fall over, okay? Um, like, even in our marriage, like, my husband, you know, Jesse, has never asked me not to be who I am. However, in that marital situation, and you're trying to figure out, okay, Uh, we went to this camp one time and we took personality tests and they were in, um, they, they described you in terms of an animal. So you're a lion and otter, a beaver or a retriever.

Got it.

So I was a lion otter.

Okay.

My husband, of course, was a beaver retriever.

Got it.

And then the guy said different combinations of what combination he said. Now this combination of marriage is the hardest one.

Wow.

And it's the lion otter wife and the beaver retriever husband.

Wow.

Because in the Christian world, submissive doesn't equal lion otter. So what does it mean for me to be me, right, and still make sure that my husband feels that I love and respect him, that I honor him? How do I throttle myself down, but not throttle myself down, but have that balance?

Yeah.

So I was practicing my C. Not my D. Not because he didn't want me to. I was trying to figure out how to be a good wife, and nobody tells you, right, when you have a very strong personality, yeah, what that looks like in marriage. Everybody's like, that was my problem. Go ahead. So, so my point is, is that the D didn't get to be— it didn't, you know. So I, I now I can sit in meetings. Um, well, uh, Sheryl Sandberg wrote a book called Lean In, and the whole idea is if you're sitting at the table, like, lean in. Yeah, like you're at the table. So I used to sit at the table just thinking I'm not supposed to be here.

Wow.

So now I sit at the table and I have to remind myself that I'm supposed to be here and that actually my thoughts actually matter. Wow. And sit up and say them like I'm supposed to be at the table. Yeah. But I have to— it's not comfortable.

Yeah. And I guess for me, and this has been a practice, you know, I do constantly remind myself because I became whole I constantly remind myself what the Lord says about me, like, in any situation. And I know that sounds so easy to say or whatever, but it really is. You know, I'm saying, Lord, you told me not to fear. You said not to be afraid and not to. So I'm constantly saying things, taking his power with me. You told me I could have this. You said— and I'm, I'm just literally having these conversations with the Lord when I'm getting ready to do something that maybe somebody else would be like, Have you lost your mind? But there have been plenty of places where I know I shouldn't have been, but I don't care. My mindset is, well, Lord, you brought me here, so you put me here for a reason. And it doesn't necessarily mean that I have to be aggressive in the situation, but know that when it's your time and I give you the words to say, you need to be saying it, right? You know what I'm saying? Like when you said it, when we've talked and you've shared maybe some things with me, then I'm listening because it's like, okay, Okay, I don't have a degree in theology, but I know what you're telling me to say to her. So it's up to me to be honest, because if I don't, then I have to deal with the disobedience, right?

And your, your job is to be obedient and to let the Lord deal with the rest of it.

So that becomes my tool, like, all the time. That's like all the time, because when I went through those classes, that was all they said.

I mean, every last one was what they kept saying.

Speak the word that you know that God says about you, because it's easy for us to say you're not supposed to be here, right? You're not supposed to. You're not equipped well.

And then sometimes it's not the devil made me do it, but it's the truth. I mean, the Bible says that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against power seen and unseen. So you have to understand that when you are fighting for freedom, there are forces that are not fighting for your freedom, right? Because freedom means— freedom means that you can go as far and as fast in your life as the authority that God has given you will allow.

Yes.

And there is no way in hell that the, the, the enemy, right, wants you to go as far or as fast as God wants you to go, right? His job is to keep you back, is to hold you back, is to keep you in chains.

Yes.

So the greatest way that he does that is with our thoughts.

Exactly.

And that's why Romans 12 says that you should be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Um, and so I, you know, you keep saying it, you're saying it in different ways, and you just said— I don't mean to keep saying it, but here's the thing. And if you've read She's Still There, you, you know this. You are the only person who is with you all the time. And anyone who has done anything notable in their life has had someone ahead of them who they were either watching, learning from, or who was speaking into their life and coaching them.

Yes, Lord.

So you have to take the knowledge that you have that may be ahead of where you are now.

Yes.

And choose to ingest it into your everyday life, which what you're saying is speaking what you believe to be true.

Yes.

Whether or not you feel that it's true, whether or not it looks like it's true. Girl, why do I feel like I'm preaching? Because you're telling us. So you have to be your own coach. And that keeps coming back around to, okay, God knows more about me and my situation and my life than I do. Well, so I'm going to speak what my coach has said about me. Okay. There is— I'm going to post it after we finish tonight.

Okay.

On Serena Williams' Instagram, there's this Nike commercial. You have to watch it. I'm going to post it on my Instagram. You have to watch it because it is a flip back and forth of her being a young girl and her dad talking to her. And then it jumps to a current video of her doing what he said. Yes.

Doing what he said. Okay.

And it just keeps going back and forth, back and forth. And it's like, it's like, oh my gosh, exactly what her daddy— oh, it's like an illustration. Exactly what her daddy had been telling her, and she was practicing because she wasn't a world-class athlete, right, when he was teaching her. She was practicing. But now she's a world-class athlete, and all she's doing is living out what she practiced doing when he was telling her. She listened to what he said. That's it.

And she trusted.

And she tried. And yeah, she would give her an instruction, she would do it. You give her an instruction. And the other thing too is, I will say this, is I think a part of you working through your freedom, yes, was spending time with God, uh, seeking wholeness by any means necessary. What does God say about me? Um, but a lot of that had to do with obedience.

Yes.

Because you would say a whole lot, I'm just doing what he told me to do.

Yes.

I'm just doing what he told me to do.

Okay.

So were you just disobedient before?

Yes. I mean, I was rebellious. Yes. I was the rebellious wife, the rebellious friend. I was rebellious across the board. My lifestyle as a child was rebellion, and that comes from lack of discipline. So I'm always getting on parents.

Chrystal can tell you stories about her as a teenager and the crazy stuff.

Yes, Lord.

Crazy stuff. Crazy, y'all. I can guarantee you that I— that 75— I would say 75% of y'all, what you think your teenagers are doing, it ain't that. Don't trust your kids.

I'mma tell y'all right now, don't trust your kids.

I don't care what they doing. Y'all, this girl, I was like, for real, you did what?

Yes.

Okay, so, so there was a, there was a theme in your life of rebellion.

Yes.

Okay, so then you go through marriage. I'm not doing it, right? So then there was a marked moment in your life where you said, you know what, a part of me being whole means not only saying about myself what he says about me, right, but just doing what he says.

Well, the thing about it is I was so rebellious. I remember the Lord giving me a direct command and I said, I ain't doing that. Not me, because he wanted me to apologize. Not me. He wanted me to apologize to my first husband.

And I said, oh, maybe after y'all were no longer together.

No, we were still together.

We were still together.

So this is in marriage, the latter part of our marriage. He said, go apologize to him. And I said, he don't deserve no apology. And I stood in that, y'all. I mean, like, I'm not gonna do it in the green— in the ground. Like, these feet aren't moving to apologize. Okay, so when I did that, the Lord, I believe, because he allowed a discipline to happen to me for 7 years.

What does that mean? He allowed a discipline?

There was so many different opportunities that were coming my way, and I would hear the Lord saying, you better not. Just like that. You better not. And I would go, I can't, because I would It was something about me saying no to him made my discernment larger because I could also hear him saying, I'm going to whoop your behind. I mean, literally, I heard that. And when, when I heard it, I believed it.

And I went, oh, it's almost like, just like you can feel the chains where, like in my case, you know, can I fully go into this moment as this, this me that I feel like, like, just like that inhibition to go forward. It's the same inhibition God was pulling you back. Oh yeah, he was like, same feeling.

Oh, you gonna sit down for a minute because when I'm done with you, when I'm done with you, you won't battle about disobedience, you won't battle about obedience, you are going to run and you're going to tell the people. And that is what my life has become is just strictly saying, don't, don't do that, you know, or showing you myself to allow you to see the consequences of rebellious.

So he— there were things that you wanted to do that you just felt like he was saying not in this season?

He was like, just be so many things. No, it wasn't even about being still. It was— it would discipline me because it was a huge want or a desire.

Okay.

He just was like, no.

So it was self-discipline?

Self-discipline.

He was giving you exercise and self-discipline? Straight up. You know what? I think that's interesting. I think often the freedom that we seek comes in learning new boundaries.

Yes, that's very good.

Because really, the freedom that we want to do what we want to do is, you know, is chaos, you know, as my dad will always say.

Right.

But being able to play the game of life well means learning the boundaries.

What was your rebellious stage of your life that you remember was the most rebellious? Like, what was that age group?

Oh, my 20s.

In your 20s. So do you remember the most rebellious thing? Because we always know that thing where we're like, oh my God, if anybody knew I did this or that I got away with this. Do you have one of those moments where you were just like, oh my God, my parents would kill me? Or was it exposed?

Um, I mean, it was exposed in the sense that I had Karris I guess.

But was that a rebellious area in your life, or—

I think, you know what, rebellion is rebellion, so period. But I will say, I think mine was more of a soft rebellion in the sense that I wasn't that person who just was like, I'm not doing it. Mine was more of, oh, okay, I want to do the right thing, but that doesn't make sense to me. Like this kind of—

you disagreed with obedience, right?

So it wasn't like it just a hard— but it was a, I think I know better, and I think this actually can work, and I think this is right, and maybe I don't think you know what you're talking about. It was more of—

it was more of that.

I was smarter than they were.

Yeah, like a lot of young people, right?

Really. And I— and one of the things that the Lord is teaching me about freedom is freedom is not in me figuring it out. Freedom is not in it adding up, right? Freedom is not in it making sense. Freedom is in him freeing me to do whatever it is, whatever it is. And the minute that it's not something that he's compelling me to do, or that I feel that he's, he's holding me back from, then, then it's not a matter of whether or not it makes sense. You know, one of the things we've said over and over again with winter passing is there were a series of things that she did that did not make sense. One of those things was she has 4 daughters, right? One of the girls she homeschooled, one of them. She said, I just feel like I'm supposed to do— I don't, I don't— she said, I just feel like this, and it was one semester, I feel like this is the one that needs more of me this spring. And she said, I can't explain it to you. I know it doesn't make sense because one of her— the oldest daughter is always in and out of town doing— that would be the one you think because of her schedule. And she was like, no, it's not her. It's this one. Or the younger ones. Why wouldn't you do the younger ones? She said, no, it's this one. And I can't tell you why. I just know God is compelling me to do it with this one. And now in hindsight, it totally makes sense. The babies got her attention because they were babies. The older one got her attention because they were always on the road together. The middle one was the middle one and did need a little extra time with her. So that's so good, you know. And, and she said, she said, people think of this as so dumb, like I'm driving with the one kid in the school going to drop off the other three and picking up. And there was no problem other than she just said this was what the Lord wanted me to do. Wow. And I think many times our rebellion— and you know what, I, I'm saying soft rebellion because I hope that that helps someone to identify with where you don't really feel like you're rebellious, but because it's not really a hard-line, bad attitude rebellion. But can I just say that I think if we would just call it rebellion, I think if we would just say that if it's not obedient, uh-huh, it's disobedience, then it's rebellion. Because I think of Eve, and I think in the garden I don't know that she had an attitude. I don't know if she was— it was just she had a conversation about it and she decided that this makes sense to me. She was smarter. She was smarter. And that was rebellion because clearly he gave her instructions.

Exactly.

So when I look back, when you say, were you rebellious? I'm thinking not the way many people would think about it, but ultimately disobedience is rebellion. You know what to do and you do not do it. It is sin, period.

And people run from that word sin. Sin is what it is— doing anything contrary to what you know the Lord would have you to do, whatever that is. But we want to minimize that word. And I think people have gotten so casual, like even talking about obedience, like that's such a— obedience, like that seems—

because it sounds like mindless, you know, yes sir, no sir, right, right, yes ma'am. I mean, that's what it sounds like, but I think that when you realize that in your obedience— and obedience is something we're constantly growing in, and the more obedient we are, the more we actually walk in freedom.

Exactly.

The more you walk in freedom and the more you are obedient, the more he clues you in to what actually makes sense.

Exactly.

But you find out on the back end, right? Not on the front end.

All right, right. Yeah, because you have to walk in it. You have to believe in the consequences of it. And I think for me, like I said, going through that and being disciplined, I understood the consequences. See, I wasn't a disciplined child. And so because I wasn't a disciplined child, I didn't understand consequences because I got away with so much. But when you have a God and a Savior that says, you're not getting away with this, I do see what you're doing, and you realize that, then the— all those things that I missed growing up as far as being fearful of somebody finding out this or that, I didn't have those because I wasn't afraid. So now I have a thought process of knowing that the Lord knows and he sees and he understands what I'm doing, and, and he is not pleased with my rebelliousness and my disobedience. He is not pleased. That bothered me. I didn't want to cause the Lord to be upset with me or feel in any way that I had made him feel that I didn't love him and that he wasn't my priority and that he wasn't my everything. So for me, it became more real with the personal relationship because that's how I was with my father too. Like, I adored my father. Like, I didn't want to see my dad upset. I didn't want to make him unhappy. So understanding understanding that part of the relationship with my Heavenly Father, it became more of the lifestyle.

You know what, you know what, I think I totally can get that with the whole daddy thing because I'm a daddy's girl too. Yeah, but the things that disappoint your earthly father or your mother, your grandmother, whoever you don't want to disappoint, the things that disappoint our earthly father, I can try and hide that. Yeah, but the things that disappoint my Heavenly Father there's no hiding.

There is no hiding.

And I think if we can actually— if we actually can believe and think on that, that he sees all of it, all of it. And I don't necessarily mean the bad stuff. I mean that he sees the struggles with security, that he sees that, uh, that there, there are hopes and dreams that you've had that are disappointing, that he sees that you're struggling in your marriage, that he sees that, uh, that you hated to get divorced and you hate being alone, that he sees all of that. I think if we can realize that in the one place that matters most, that there is no mask, because even if you try to wear one, he sees through it.

He sees through it. Yeah.

Then that's the— ooh, here it is. Walking in freedom means acknowledging and realizing that there is one place where you are always seen. Well, always seen. And as you spend time with him, as you spend time with him and get comfortable, yes, with the fact that he sees me, he sees all of me, he sees my situation, yes, and he actually still loves me, yeah, then the freedom that you feel in the relationship with God starts spilling over into everything else. Yoti, because that's what you were saying, you were saying Once I started seeking wholeness, I started spending a lot more time with God.

Yes. And that's where the wholeness came from, and freedom, and knowing that he sees me. It wasn't about anybody. It's like I said, I was trying to find it in a man, in a person. But when I realized it was him, like, he's the one that you're doing everything for, that you're living for, that you are, uh, doing these different things for. It's about him and what His glory and you letting everybody see him through you. It's like, that was foreign to me at first. Like, I didn't get that while I was married. I thought he's supposed to fix me when I have a problem.

I'm supposed to tell him, and he's your spouse.

Yeah, I had put all that pressure on him, and he was like, ah, I can't help you.

Listen, Jesse will say, hey, Uh, I don't— I can't help you. And he'll say two things to me. One of them is, you just need to talk to one of your girlfriends about that, because like, you just need to talk it through. Yeah, he'll be like, go talk to my girlfriend. And then the other thing is, he'll say, you just need to pray about it. I don't have an answer for you. He actually won't allow himself to be my savior. Exactly. If he was in here, he'd probably say, because I couldn't be anyway, you need too much. Well, well, that was me.

I was needing a whole lot. Yeah, I was needing a whole lot. And I'm sure my husband now says the same thing that you are, but he loves me.

So, so what does that— okay, it's two questions. Yes, I gotta— okay, so, so healing came walking out your freedom.

Yes.

Really was a matter of learning to walk with God.

Yes.

Let him see you, accept what he says about you. Rehearsing what he says, rehearsing it, rehearsing what he says about you, and then being obedient. Because you really cannot walk with God in darkness. He does not walk in darkness. It doesn't make sense to do it in the light. And being in the light means I have to be obedient.

It means I have—

okay, all the different things. So how did you know when you were whole? How did you— like, do you have a moment where you were like, you know what, hmm, It wasn't a moment, no, because it was a process.

It was, it was me learning and going through different things at different times where a test would come and I would see a growth situation. Like, huh, I passed again, that, you know, and it would be different ones, different ones. An example of a test, um, like say for instance dealing with a man, like how, how are you going to treat him now? Like, are you willing to put yourself in a position to understand he's not your savior? And that you could still love him at the same time, and it's okay to humble yourself. So that's a whole lot you just said, but it was a lot of things.

Humble yourself. Yeah. Okay, so, so now you're married again, Jay Wayne.

Yes.

What does it mean? How does it look different to respect your husband, respect his opinion, to honor him, to want to, uh, be his crown and glory but not make him your savior.

Right.

And give me an example maybe of something that you do now this way that you used to do that way.

Like, when I was first married, I felt like any downtime that he had was supposed to be about me.

Not just even with you. No, about you.

Yes. Like, what do you want? What do you need? Like, he was supposed to be just running after me going What is it, Tisha? How can I help you today? Like, in my mind, that's what you're supposed to be. Like, I had dreamed or come up with this man that was supposed to be doing all these things for me.

Knight in shining armor. He shows up and it's all about you.

That's it, period. So with my husband now, like, I don't put that pressure on him. I don't need that anymore. Like, I felt I needed it because I didn't know who I was. I was still living in this little girl thinking I needed these things. Where with my husband now, I mean, we support one another. He does his thing, I do my thing. We come together. Sometimes we're not together. Where at first it was a demand.

Yeah.

You have to—

if we're not together, it's wrong. Like, you're supposed to be here. Something is wrong with you.

You're not here. Like, I was that kind of dramatic. Like, my first husband would be like, can you just stop acting?

Because I was just— you're supposed to be here. Yeah. Because this This is not the drama just for y'all.

No, this is everyday life drama.

This is, this is what it is. And this is actually, if, if I have a 10 and if this is Tisha's 10, then, um, y'all are probably about 15 points down from what you could potentially see from— yeah, Tisha. Okay, so you really were the drama queen?

Yes, I was. And I had a very high expectation of any and everything that had to do with me. Like, decisions had to be made around what I thought, what I need. Everything was about me in my first marriage because I was wanting somebody to make something about me because I didn't know who I was.

It was like, in my mind, because you didn't realize that a big deal had already been made about you.

Yes, not at all.

And so you didn't revel in, I'm a big deal because somebody else already made a big deal about me. I need, I need you to make a big deal about me 'cause I don't know the big deal. I don't get that I'm a big deal.

I didn't think anything about me being a big deal. I didn't have that in my mind. I never thought I was a big deal. I mean, I still don't think, but I sure didn't think it. No, but I'm saying, like, people might've thought I was thinking I was a big deal. No, I wasn't thinking that at all. I'm like, I'm not a big deal. I want to be made to be a big deal. Like, I wanted that from him. And he was steady saying, you need to go get ho. That's all he said. That was his tagline. You need to go get whole. I mean, any little thing.

Funny, I think, I think in relationships women are quick to think— it's kind of funny how it works. Men will recognize a woman who's not whole quick.

Yes.

A woman, if she recognizes that he's not whole, doesn't then say, you don't have to go and fix it. We actually try to fix it.

Yeah, we try to.

We try, we try to say, well, that's broken, right? I'm gonna fix I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna help you change.

But you don't when you whole though.

No, because I'm gonna tell you, yeah, when me being whole, you're just like, you got to go get that.

I have to tell—

I—

because I know you can't— I can't help you.

Yep.

I realize now that I'm whole, when I see somebody that's not whole, I'll tell you up front, I can't help you.

Yeah. I mean, like, that's even a conversation that my husband and I have now. I'll say to him, and, you know, try to make it as— because, you know, I'm not the most sensitive.

I understand. You like me tight a lot.

So I'll just say, I'll say, I, you know, I love you and I really, but try to hear what I'm saying. I can't, like, this is as much as I can do everything I can, but I really think that there's some stuff you're just going to have to get some help. And I want to support you in that and I want to be helpful, but I can't.

You can't do it.

And I think that is honestly, that has been some of the greatest freedom Yeah. Of my adult life is to realize that everybody has to get wholeness for themselves.

For themselves.

I can support who I'm supposed to support. I can give. It's not that I'm not willing to be self-sacrificing in certain relationships, but I can't do it for you.

Yeah.

And if you don't want it for you, well, then I'm going to do what the Lord tells me to do and no more.

That's it.

It's not my— not only is it not your job to be my savior, it's not my job to be yours. Well, and, and I know that there are some women who are going to watch this who are the caregivers who are always laying their lives, putting their lives on hold for everybody. And there is a season for that where you throttle down because there's somebody in your life who you're trying to support, of course, but when you get the inkling that it's unhealthy, because— so here's— people always ask me, how do you know? How do you know when you're supposed to give more of yourself? And because that's the thing to do, right? And when you're giving too much, right? And I said, it's when I stop trying to decide what I think I should do.

Exactly.

When I ask God, because I'm his. So if If I'm trying to take care of everybody else and I'm depleting what he's put in me for me to do, or like, like, like health, let's just say if you caring for other people is— means you're not able to take care of you, right? Then does God want you to give so much of yourself that you actually don't have anything for the other stuff he wants you to do? And the only person who can answer that question for you is— that's a conversation with you and God to know when he's saying it's too much, right? I'm not asking you to do that, right? And if I can see that what I am doing is God-sanctioned or not sanctioned, then that gives me the freedom to say, I would love to, but I can't, right? I would— or I can do it next week.

Yeah.

Or I would love to help you, but this is as much as I can give.

Yeah.

Or this is when I want to watch your kids or bring you a meal, but it'll— can I do that 4 weeks from now? Like, I'm able to say it because I'm looking at— I am a steward of my life. I don't own my life. I'm a steward of my life. And if he is gonna require me to give an answer for the life that I've lived, then I need to check with him.

Amen.

To see if what I'm doing with my life is the stuff he actually wanted me to do. Hey, that's a man, because you do a whole lot.

I do.

So I want to know Um, that's good though. What? Because you do a lot. Y'all don't understand anything that happens anywhere, anybody's birthday, anniversary, church occasion, party. It's just like Tisha will pop in and she'll pop in and she'll pop out. Yeah, I'm not gonna stay long, but she'll pop in. But you don't have a problem. You, you are very supportive person, huge cheerleader, but you also don't have a problem telling people no.

No, I don't.

Okay, how— what would you say to help the person who doesn't walk in freedom? Because maybe it's not a spouse, right? Maybe it's not themselves, right? But it's just people, they just hate to let people down, um, they hate to disappoint, uh, if they don't do it, nobody else will. What would you tell that person who just is worn out because they're doing all the things, but it's because they can't say no. They're not, they're not feeling free to say no.

Well, the thing about it is, again, when you're thinking about being in a relationship with the Lord, even when it comes to making decisions on yeses and nos, like, you may see a lot of the things that I do, but you don't see the things that I'm at home in the sleep at home sleep resting while other things are going on. Because I do pray and say, okay Lord, this is what I desire, or I'm needing you to direct my path today. What am I supposed to be doing? Because I'm always thinking about impact. Like, what is the impact with me going here? What do you have me to do? That's why sometimes my visit is short, because he's like, I just need you to go tell them you love them, let you know you appreciate them, and then I need you to come back home. Because sometimes it's not always about you just going and hanging out or being very long periods of time. But it is a place that you have to get to regularly, talking to the Lord about your day-to-day things of what you should or should not be doing. And again, that's rehearsed. That's not an overnight success of doing that.

That became a practice of me saying, okay, what do you want me to do?

What do you want me to do? Because sometimes it is just that— just go tell them that you love them. And a lot of my friends will come and tell you, that's all she did. She came and whispered something in my ear. She will take a picture.

She will have a picture because she's got to get the Instagram thing and say, I will see her.

I'm here supporting you. I love you, but I'm out. You know, because that's sometimes all I'm supposed to do is just go let that person know they are important to me, to go take that time. But then there are other times where it's not necessary, where it may just be a thing of something is just going to be fun, uh, and it may take me away from my family. If it's not something where First of all, my husband, if he's working and he's like, "Bae, you go. I'mma stay home." You know, that happens a lot of times too if he's doing something. But my children are grown now. They're not at home, so they're not thinking about what I'm doing. So a lot of times it's just me deciding after praying about, you know, "Lord, is there something particular I'm supposed to be doing?" But sometimes it's just freedom in him saying, "Enjoy yourself." He wants me to represent him wherever I am.

But what I heard you say is there's a priority because you talked about impact.

Yeah.

If I'm going to do this thing, am I doing it just to say yes, or is there actually an impact for me? Am I leaving a footprint? Does this last longer than this moment?

And that's how I feel. I feel that way. I don't know about— I'm praying that the person does, but usually because people do know that I come and support them. They usually, when they see me there, they're like, oh, she came to mine, because I do go to a lot of things. But I am praying about that too, and I'm, and I'm asking the Lord, do they— I want them to know that they are a priority for me, even if I'm not there for a long period of time. I want them to know that this was a priority, that I let them know how important they are, that I wanted to come and be here today, even if it's for a short period of time.

Well, I will tell you that one of the things that has freed me up to— and I've talked about this before, but in the morning, I literally— and most mornings this happens where I just have a little bit of time where before I get out of the bed, I just lay there for just a second and I said, Lord, there's a whole— my list, y'all. Y'all don't want to look at my list. And I said, what is the most important thing to do today? And it's usually— there's usually, you know, or things— there are usually 2 or 3 things that if I don't do nothing else today, this is the thing I have to do. When I get out of the bed, whatever list I made the night before, yeah, those are the 2 or 3 things that go on the top. And, uh, and then I know that if everything else doesn't go the way I want, at least these are the things that he impressed upon my heart. Yeah. And y'all, you have to trust the Holy Spirit in you.

Amen.

Um, that, that that, that he can speak to you and impress upon your heart, compel you to do certain things, to go certain places, to serve certain people, to engage in certain activities. And then if you're not free to do it, then it's okay to say no. And here's the way I've learned to say no. I would love to, I would, it would bring me no greater joy than to be there or to do this or to do that. You know, but this time I'm just not able to, but know that I would love to, and I hate that I can't. It helps. Still a no, but it helps. Any closing thoughts about freedom and walking in freedom you want to leave everyone with tonight?

I just want to say being free indeed is a beautiful place. In other words, No, I'm not perfect. Yes, I still make mistakes, but the relationship that I have with the Lord, I know that I'm staying in right relationship with him by spending time with him, walking in forgiveness, walking in love, and doing what he asked. So those are the things that I have to practice, is renewing my mind with his word to stay committed to doing what he said is and walking in the spirit of forgiveness, because I want nothing between he and I, that I can hear from him and I can be free.

And I just want to, you know, just to tag on, you know, we're talking about freedom and we mentioned it. I want to say it again: your healing is worth pursuing.

Yes, Lord.

And many of us, because of unforgiveness, because of insecurity, because of our lack of confidence, because of self-doubt, because we don't know what God says about us, because we're walking in rebellion, right? We, we don't want to leave the place that we've gotten used to, to do the work of seeking freedom. And your freedom, that healing, that wholeness, is worth fighting for. But the only person who can do the work to fight for freedom is you. You're the only one that can do that. Uh, we've talked, of course, you know, y'all know I love Jesus, so we talked a lot about that. If you're not even sure you're right with God, you, you need to— you know, I never want to assume that people, they, they, they, they all the way understanding. So you can actually go to chrystalevanshurst.com/tellmemore, um, to just read about the gospel straight out. And, um, and there's a lot of information in there. So if you just want to go, okay, They were talking a lot about God and how he leads them and guides them and directs them and tells them what to do and tells them when to go and tell them when to stay. And I want that in my life and I don't have it. ChrystalEvansHurst.com/tellmehmore. And I want to thank— there's a group of women who actually support all the media stuff that I do. Wow. So I want to thank the co-producers that have joined me over patreon.com/chrystalhurst to make this kind of stuff possible. So thanks to you. And y'all, if you haven't listened to any of the podcasts on freedom, you're missing out, okay? Because there's some— we've had some wonderful nuggets tonight, Leticia, but there are a whole slew of other nuggets that have been on the podcast, and I don't want you to miss any of them because y'all, freedom It is worth fighting for.

Yes, Lord.

And if you're in the fight like me, because it's a, it's a process for me, uh, if you have— if you're on the verge of wholeness, or if you're just straight up in rebellion, don't settle for anything less.

Yes.

Than what God died to give you. Don't settle for anything less than what he died to give you, because somebody died to set you free. I love you, girl.

I love you. I love you too.

I still need help with makeup though. You're beautiful. Bye, y'all.

Bye.