ETHICAL SPACE AND INDIGENOUS CULTURAL AWARENESS

Hello, hello, hello everyone, and welcome to our live session today, which is about ethical space and Indigenous cultural awareness. I'm Claire Hayek, founder of MSP Team Building and team leadership expert. So happy that you're back with me here today, and I would like to just take a minute and introduce a member of our team, Connor, that will be chatting and interacting with you in the chat. So we will be asking a lot of questions, different kind of surveying your opinion on different subjects related to what we're talking about today. So please do interact and let us know what you think. But first of all, I'd like to see where you're joining us from today. So Let's do some practice and start chatting and commenting. Let us know where you're coming from today, where you're joining from today, and would love to hear a bit more here. Let me just share the chat and see. See. Oh, well, hi, Stacy. Thank you for joining. Hey, Connor. So please do put it in the chat where you're coming from, joining us from, not coming from, but joining us from today. I'm here in Montreal. I know Connor is in New Hampshire. Would love to know Cape Cod. Okay, well Connor, that's a surprise. All right, great. So before we start, I wanted to actually you see here a QR code shared on top of my screen that I will leave there quickly. I want to take a second to let you know if you are not aware and you haven't seen one of our communications is that. We have a webinar, a team leadership webinar. It's a free webinar that we're hosting tomorrow at 3 PM EST, 12 PM PST. And we'd love for you to join us. It's gonna be a webinar full of gold nuggets and insights. It's about 90 minutes and we're giving this away. We're gonna be talking about leadership skills. We're gonna be talking about communication and we're gonna be sharing some Tips and basically ways to incorporate all these things we'll be sharing with you through team building that you can organize on your own without breaking the bank or even having a budget. So, I'm gonna put this up here as well. If you want to scan that code, we'd love to have you join us. If you can't join us tomorrow because you're not available, we know you're all very busy, then in this case, please do register because then at least you'll have access to the, to the replay. Okay, so enough about, about that. Um, I really would like to, uh, take time here and introduce our speakers today. Um, but before I do that, I'd like to show you the beautiful earrings that I have, uh, here that are— were made handmade by an Indigenous artisan. Today I'm wearing— sorry, today I'm wearing basically the beautiful culture, Indigenous culture, right here on my ears and earlobes. And I'm really proud to introduce you to our speakers today. And but I'm not going to be introducing them. I'd like for them to introduce themselves. So please go ahead, Denise and Marc.

Bonjour, Claire. Denise Nindodum. Anishinaabekwening, Mayingin Nindodum. Hello, my name is Denise. I'm an Ojibwe woman of the Wolf Clan. I'm a member of the Red Rock Indian Band, an Ojibwe First Nation in northwestern Ontario. I'd like to acknowledge that we're coming to you today from Thunder Bay, the traditional territory of my people, the Anishinaabek people. Miigwech for inviting us.

Hi, I think our screen's a little tight, so we're trying to squeeze in. My name is Mark Bohinio, but my friends call me Boomer, so I go by Boomer for years and years. I'm non-Indigenous, I'm a colonizer settler. I'm originally from Winnipeg, and a bit of my background, I actually was a member of the RCMP for almost 26 years, and for about half my career I was an Indigenous community development officer. Then I traveled extensively in northwestern Ontario and had a chance to meet and work with Indigenous people from all over Turtle Island and even into South America to do community-based work for developing programs and working with communities to assist them in doing the things they want to do to sort of reinvigorate and re-empower themselves, you know, as we work together towards a shared future.

Thank you so much, Denise and Mark Boomer, for introduction and Miigwech for for being here with us today. It's an honor to have you. It's been a while I wanted to do this. I'm really happy that it's happening. So let's get right to it because we only have thirty minutes and there's so much to talk about, and we try to squeeze everything in here today for you. So let let's start with. Just the basics, right? So how do we establish an ethical space for dialogue? Because it's kind of an important thing for deepening cultural understanding. Can you, Denise and Mark, can you share your experiences and methods for establishing such spaces focusing on respect, transparency, and mutual understanding?

I'll let Mark answer that question. That's his area. that he's actually engaged in and studying. So I'll add some of my perspective as an Indigenous woman, lived experience, but I'll let him explain.

Yeah, so I'm working on a master's thesis and part of my— well, a big thrust of my thesis is working on the ethical space between Indigenous peoples and either the Crown or police or just the non-Indigenous settler population. So first of all, what ethical space is, it's important that I sort of define what it is and where I first heard of it. I first heard of it from a Cree scholar by the name of— from Saskatchewan called Willie Ermine. And he spoke about the ethical space in regards to an English scholar, British scholar by the name of Roger Poole, who started looking at when groups come together, there's a space. It's an abstract space, but it's also a real space. And when they come together, they define that space based on their culture, based on their language, based on all of their experiences. So it becomes a contested space where you interpret it based on what you've lived, right? And if we look back at, you know, some of the conversations I've had with Indigenous peoples, the Haudenosaunee, the Mohawk, the Indigenous of the Iroquois Confederacy, there's something called the Two Row Wampum. Some of you might have heard of the Two Row Wampum Belt. It came around around 1613 when the Haudenosaunee came in contact with Dutch people and there they made a belt made out of shells with a row of— there's 3 white rows and 2 blue rows. So the one row represents the Indigenous people or the Haudenosaunee and the other blue row represented the Dutch people and in the middle it was a river where they said the 2 cultures will be on that same river. The Dutch people, the Euro, would be in a boat and the Haudenosaunee would be in their canoe. And in that ethical space, we share that space together, but we live it from an opposite bank. And in— but in that ethical space, in that river, we will be on the same— we would travel in the same direction as brothers would. But it's also based on friendship. Peace, and basically it will go on till eternity. So the ethical space is the space that you first have to understand that actually exists. And that's one of the challenges, not so much for the Indigenous people, but for the Euro mind, the Western Euro mind coming together and understanding that there's this invisible space that's this contested space, like I said, because it's based on how we see the world.

Worldview.

a worldview. So if when you hear Indigenous people talk about things like all my relations, when they say that, like maybe at a sweat lodge or when you hear them speaking in a more of a spiritual way or introduce themselves, they'll finish by saying all my relations. Well, all my relations is all things. It's the air, it's the water, it's the insects, it's the trees, it's everything.

Okay.

The things you see, the things you don't see, but it's also people. So you have to realize that the ethical space is something that needs to be realized. And like, you just have to take a step back and say there's something here. And in that ethical space, so when people come together, dialogue is an important part of establishing an ethical space. But then you have to define dialogue. So these are complex things because what is dialogue? Well, like, if you look at the Greek dialogue, It means logos is the word and dia means through. So through the word, it doesn't mean to in this case. Through the word, so through dialogue, we will establish our ethical space based on what we see.

Right. Very interesting. Yeah.

And when we look at, let's say, there was a great paper written about the Plains Cree and their conversation and what are the real ethics around their conversation. Well, silence and co-presence. So the fact that you don't even speak is as important or more important than speaking. And the fact that right now we're co-present with each other.

Right.

Even though we're virtual, we are present with each other. And this presence gives us an opportunity to create an ethical space that we need for ourselves. And the idea that ethical space, true ethical space and true dialogue, we have to come into it with no strings attached. We don't want to— our intention coming into the space has to be an intention of just being together. And if you come in with that, you have a goal. I'm coming into this because I've got a goal. Let's say it's for developing a mine. So let's say you're in the industry, the mining industry, and you want to build a mine, you want to dig a mine. Well, if you're coming in there thinking, okay, by the time we leave here in half an hour, we're gonna have that paper signed and we're gonna— that mine, the shovels will be in the ground in 2 months. Well, if you're coming in with that intention, is— you have to ask yourself, is that space really ethical? Is there any true dialogue going on?

So, so this is a very important, uh, this is such crucial information here because I think a lot of people are not aware of this, and this is why we're having this conversation. I mean, I, I've I've spoken to both of you and, and, you know, you, you briefed me on everything, but there's so much more to learn. And this is a whole conference on, on, on this, not 30 minutes. Thank you so much, Mark, for sharing your insight. But Denise, I would love for you to tell me, tell us, uh, how you see it as well. Maybe add to what Mark said.

Well, I was gonna say, like, my upbringing, I was raised alongside my maternal grandparents and my aunts and uncles and cousins, and we lived a quite traditional land-based lifestyle. They were hunters, fishermen, trappers, um, berry pickers. So how I see the world is different than what many people see the world as, um, Western worldviews. I have different values and understanding about our connection as Indigenous people to nature and land. So again, the ethical space, we need to acknowledge these different worldviews. We need to acknowledge that in order to create dialogue and to bridge the gap of different worldviews.

Absolutely, absolutely. Actually, I want to survey a little bit here our audience, and please do put it in the chat, yes or no. Have you previously engaged in activities or training specifically focused on understanding Indigenous cultures? We just want to have an idea of people joining us today of how much, you know, you know about the Indigenous cultures, or you've learned about it, or have you even organized any of these activities? Please do put it in the chat, yes or no. And I'm just going to move on to the next question because I really— so much I want to ask you, and again, so little time. So Marc, you mentioned you've worked extensively with Indigenous communities as a non-Indigenous ally, right?

Correct.

So can you briefly discuss the importance of how we can integrate both Indigenous and settler perspective so we can better understand and nurture a better a better relationship together. How can we do that?

You know, for me, you know, what existed for me when I first started— like, I grew up in Winnipeg, born and raised in the city that has the largest Indigenous urban population in Canada. And I had a lot of preconceived notions because, you know, I didn't really come in contact with too many Indigenous people in my life. Well, when I had the opportunity to learn, it came through a book called Wisdom of the Elders by David Suzuki. And a co-author by the last name Knudsen. And in there, I heard about the word worldview, and that changed a lot for me. And it came again, it goes back to ethical space, but I didn't know the ethical space existed back then. But it came about by starting to see that when you look at another person, you have a preconceived notion of who you think they are and how they think. Are they like me? Are they different than me? Skin color, you know, different things, all these like overt things but also hidden things. So for me, it was always a— when I first started going to different First Nations, there was an invisible barrier that I had to overcome, especially as a non-Indigenous person, as a colonizer settler. And you got to remember, when I really did all this, I was with the RCMP. I was with the organization that was the enforcement arm of the federal government that took young Native kids for decades to residential schools. So I knew there was a very good possibility I would be faced with, you know, people who didn't want to engage with me at all, and I could understand that. But the opposite took place once I overcame my own apprehensions. One of the things that I did at first Was I wanted to know, well, how did the people in these communities say hello? That was the very first step. And I know we spoke and you learned, you do hand drumming, you've been to different maybe ceremony, and you know a little bit about eagle feathers and people maybe have been to powwows. Learn about the culture. And a lot of times the way non-Indigenous people come in contact with Indigenous culture Is by going to a powwow or hearing about a powwow or seeing a smudge at a ceremony on TV, maybe. Maybe that's where it starts. But once you start doing your own homework and starting to like take an active role in dispelling your own misconceptions, I think that's huge. I remember being told by several people in several communities that when I got off the plane and I said, wache, or boozhoo for hello. They said, you know, when you came off that plane and flew into our community and you said boozhoo, that we thought, wow, this white guy, he knows how to say hello.

Yeah.

A lot of times what I would do too is I would go on the internet and I would find out about the community before I went, find out what, what they're like, you know, how many people live on the reserve, How many people live off reserve, you know, some of the history of their communities. When you look at the James Bay coast and the Hudson Bay coast, their realities are very different from the Plains people, you know.

Or even from myself. Yeah, grew up, you know, um, my First Nation, I didn't grow up on the reserve. I grew up in the town close to the, like, right beside the reserve. But, you know, we had road access, we had access to the city. So my reality is quite different than somebody who comes from a fly-in community.

Right.

So we're Indigenous, but we're also different. Like, there's just so many differences. So it's so important to engage with, with us and learn about— we have valuable insights on our traditional knowledge, our cultural practices, and history and culture, and, you know, what's going on in society. So You know, I just think our perspectives are so important to both settler and Indigenous, and it's important to listen to both and respect and value both.

Yeah, but, and as a non-Indigenous person, you really have to check your— maybe sometimes you have an attitude or a preconceived notion of like a bias on what, you know, who we are and what you are. And I think one of the biggest problems is the way the Western world, it's a stratified population idea. When you even look at like the church or the way, you know, the monarchy is set up, there's a king and a queen and the prince and the princesses, and then it goes down. And then at the bottom, it's the paupers, the serfs, the people that would work their lands, you know. So everything is based on this hierarchy of your station in life. When you start coming across Indigenous cultures and learning about, again, all my relations, that everything is You know, not just a circular but a sphere. Everything is based on this 3-dimensional world of equality and a constant state of flux and interconnectedness of all things. You know, I've had great teachings. I've, I've, you know, I've gone to university to learn this, but I also had such great practical experiences. I was a trained firekeeper for sweat lodges, a skabe, a helper. for sweat lodge keepers. And, you know, I learned so much. I've had a really good life of learning about Indigenous peoples from a perspective of, you know, me coming in there with a really open heart and open mind and open spirit. And it just made it so easy for me to interact despite the baggage I would come in with, with being a member of the RCMP.

Yeah, and I think you've said it, Marc and Denise, actually, the whole approach and how you show up, you know, when you do integrate the Indigenous culture or you're being received by them or you're interacting with Indigenous peoples. I mean, I had that personal experience as well, and I'm honored to share it quickly. I mean, I was initiated with a woman drumming group group to Indigenous chants from different tribes and learning how to pronounce the words properly and understanding the words. And coming from, I mean, I'm originally Lebanese. I think I've got some Indigenous in my blood coming from that part of the world and maybe my ancestors from Africa. And the drum is very present in these cultures. But there's so much that I learned and I thought it was about music, but it's just so much more. It's about not only music, it's about spiritual connection. It's about the healing. It's about so many things. And even the ceremony before playing the drum and the smudge and what that means and even how you dress, your regalia. And it's just beautiful. And there's so much to understand. And I think the more we we get closer to Indigenous cultures and we understand, the better the communication, that communication becomes that we develop that trust, that safe space where we can truly connect and truly have a conversation and be aware. And, you know, you mentioned all about just being before getting onto agendas, right? So I think that is the bottom, the the first step. And thanks so much for sharing this.

You're welcome.

Quickly, let's poll here. Again, let's see what everybody thinks. Do you believe incorporating diverse perspectives enhances cultural understanding in your organization? So yes or no, please put it in the chat. And we're going to just keep going here because it's already 8 minutes left. And I want to take about 5 minutes just to leave a bit of time for Q&As at the end of If some of our participants have some questions for you. So as far as the— just kind of share with us some actionable insights and examples from your experience in really encouraging and fostering that respectful and effective cultural engagement. And maybe just share like what is the one simple thing we can do to learn more and connect better with Indigenous culture? And I'd like to ask this question to Denise first. Mark, of course, you're welcome to comment right after. So Denise, can you share some insights with us on this and examples maybe?

Well, I think it's important to prioritize relationships and trust building over transactions. Like when you're approaching An Indigenous nation, you know, for instance, we're talking about mining earlier, um, you know, get to know the people, really get to know, say hello, you know, just open that line of, like Mark said, say, find out how they say hello. I say boozhoo in Anishinaabe. Um, but really don't just focus on the transaction because We see through that. Unfortunately, we do. We see through that. So, um, it's just, you know, don't be afraid to approach us in a really humble and, you know, in a way that you want to learn about us and really be honest, you know, open the lines of communication and dialogue. It's, it's so important.

Yeah, and let me tell you for sure, a lot of people, uh, a lot of non-Indigenous people don't realize that Indigenous people have been really traumatized by the colonizer settler. When Indigenous people are being approached, again, not even from a business perspective, but just one-on-one, so much has been taken away and keeps getting taken away by business, by government, you know, by, you know, personal conflicts with non-Indigenous people. All these misunderstandings. But, you know, with all that said, with all this historical trauma, I've always been welcomed. And, you know, I think the big thing, like I kind of mentioned or alluded to earlier, is Indigenous people will welcome you in. There's always a feast when, you know, when they say there's a feast, it's a feast. When they, you know, you come to a ceremony, there's always interaction and food and openness. But despite that trauma, despite that, in spite of all the negative things that continue to be done, Indigenous people are always open and honest. And what Denise said as well was, you know, I'll put it in kind of street-level terms, they have a really good bullshit meter. I mean, you cannot bullshit.

That is true. That is true.

I mean, that's generalizing, but no, but it's true. I mean, Indigenous people are really good. Bold statement.

You know what I find personally when I interact with different Indigenous cultures and Indigenous peoples is that you feel at the beginning you're very nervous. You know, you're not sure. It's like, am I saying something wrong?

I don't know.

You just get really nervous. They have this strong presence and this pride. And I think it feels intimidating. Because you're not really— because we're not educated. We don't know. There's so much we don't know. And they're so majestic about their culture. And I love that, that presence. And then, so it makes people nervous and they're not sure what to say, how to act, how to, you know, and that is so true. The BS meter, that is so 100% true. And I laugh because I see it. I am a very good observer and I usually see it when people like, Approaching, they're not sure what to say. They don't know what's going on. They don't understand. They're like, "What is that? What is that costume?" You know, they're not using the right words. You know, it's like, and but then you see the kindness, and you know, there's not a lot of expression. It's a lot of that you know pride, but with vulnerability and kindness that emanates through that, and that is so impressive. That's always so impressed me. And the minute you're in, I mean. You understand and you're interested. I mean, they just bring you right in. You're family. Very forgiving, very open, and extremely generous for— oh my God, so generous. The gifts that were offered just because we played the drum, you know, a lot of the beautiful things were offered to us and we would insist on paying and no, you know, this was an honor thing, a respect thing. And anyway, I don't wanna go on and take the time about this. I just wanted to bring a completely different perspective from someone Somebody that is not— hasn't studied this but lived it.

It's important to share your— the positive, really, because so much, you know, media, like, all you hear is the negative, you know. But there's— and we're, you know, we're resilient people. We're still here. We're going strong. We're getting strong. So, you know, it's like, I'm, I'm really happy that you're presenting this and allowing And expressing your, your thankfulness to, to us, to the culture and to Indigenous people. Because like I said, it's important to, to really reflect on the positive and not just the negative all the time.

And I think we also have to be always clear and say it's Indigenous cultures with an S. Every community is different. It's a big— it's a big— the country of Canada is big from East Coast to West Coast to the north. Everyone in between who's Indigenous.

What we call Canada.

What we call Canada.

Yeah, I know. And we might have people here from the US as well. So Indigenous peoples are everywhere, really.

All the people are different. And I think another thing, there's a lot of positive, but if you are confronted with the realities of frustration or suspicion because so much has been taken away, take it. As a non-Indigenous person, you got to take it. Take that and just be understanding. Like I said, as a former member of the RCMP, I know what my force did to Indigenous people. I learned it over years and years. And don't rush your learning.

Yeah.

And if you don't know, Indigenous people will tell you the real history. of what's happened. So take it, take it, absorb it, and reflect on it. And then look at a way to work at addressing these issues in a good way, in a better way, that we both can heal together and look for shared solutions.

Yeah, that's— we, we can just move forward, right?

Yeah.

Thank you so much, Mark, for sharing that perspective. I just want to— it's already 12 o'clock. I just want to ask one last question here to our audience. What aspect of Indigenous culture awareness do you find most challenging? Terminology, historical context, or practical application? Please do share it in the chat. And I know we don't have a lot of time for Q&A here. I don't think there's a lot of questions. There is some comments though, and I will just put the chat here quickly. Thank you so much, Stacey, Vincent, Chris for joining us and Connor, of course, from our team and putting a lot of comments here in the chat. One thing that Stacy, I just want to feature this here, one of his comments that's called humility. And I was, I think, I believe Stacy, you mentioned that when I was talking about Indigenous peoples, when I met them and how they're proud and But there's a lot of that vulnerability. I said vulnerability, but I think you were saying humility, and 100% agree with you on that, that humility and that, you know, that human touch and human awareness. So thank you so much for—

I like Stacy's comment, learn to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. I really like that.

All of his comments are Great.

Yeah. And one last comment from, from actually Connor here, that one of the challenges that he finds is maybe practical application. That's an answer to our question here that we put in the chat. What aspect of Indigenous culture awareness do you find most challenging? Actual practical application. But let's, let's wrap up quickly here. Thank you so much again, everyone, for joining us. For those of you who are joining us, um, basically, uh, later and watch, you know, watching this at another date, uh, please do, uh, comment in the chat, um, if you want more information about this conference because obviously it's more than 30 minutes. We have so much to talk about and Denise and Marc, uh, put together a great conference on the subject to help teams and help organizations understand have a better cultural awareness about Indigenous people and so much more. So I will put this back here on screen. So if you want more information, please do reach out either on LinkedIn or via our website, msbteambuilding.ca, or type, just simply type Indigenous culture in the chat and we'll definitely share the information with you. Finally, just a quick reminder, We have a couple of things coming up. Again, we have our team leadership webinar tomorrow at 3:00 PM, and we'd love to have you all join us. Otherwise, we will have another conference, a LinkedIn Live on August 7th about communication, the secrets of effective communications that you can scan the code here, how Why 99% of leaders get it wrong. It's crazy, right? Yeah, we'll tell you all about that August— on August 7th. Please do scan the code for that. And here's the code for our team leadership webinar tomorrow. Denise and Marc, thank you so, so much for taking the time and explaining this to us and giving us your, your wonderful insights about Indigenous culture awareness and Indigenous peoples and your personal experience. And I'm looking forward to having, you know, working with you more and spreading this all over the world because I think your message is great. And I think what you're doing is very important. We need more of you out there teaching us, teaching non-Indigenous people how to connect and how to speak the language and speak that human connection language as well. And that And what did Marc call it? That awareness, I think, right, Marc? Thank you again. Last words, Denise, Marc, wrapping up here.

Miigwech, Claire. It's been a pleasure.

Miigwech. And what Stacy says, humility. You come in as a non-Indigenous person being very humble and open, and you've already gone a lot farther than most people who aren't Indigenous. So just be humble, respectful, And accept, you know, accept the realities of what we're dealing with today and work in a positive way together.