Imposter No More with David Brennan

2 cancers, a top 10 MBA surrounded by surgeons and VPs, and a simple rule that changed everything. Stop trying to be right. Focus on getting it right. Welcome to the NeuroLeadership Edge. Brain Science for Bold Leaders Ready to Master Their Mind and Own Their Voice. I'm your host, Claire Hayek, NeuroLeadership expert and founder of Mind Soul Purpose Team Building. By the end of this episode, you're gonna have a quick way to shut down imposter thoughts when they pop up, one simple rule to keep your team focused on fixing the problem, not winning the argument, And a 1-minute move you can use before tough conversations so you show up calm and clear. Today, we're going to be talking about imposter syndrome and how David beat it and how you can too. Let me tell you a little bit about David. David Brennan is a seasoned go-to-market and operations leader with over a decade of experience driving data-informed consumer strategy and cross- functional alignment in automotive and digital transformation. Currently a product owner at Ford, he's known for turning CRM and behavioral insights into game-changing improvements in lead-to-sale conversion. As a 2-time cancer survivor, David brings heart, grit, and authenticity to conversations about leadership, Welcome, David. How are you today?

Hey, happy to be here. I'm great. You make me sound awesome, Claire. So this is great.

Well, you are awesome. I'm not coming up with anything here. So I'm really excited about this one because I often talk about imposter syndrome. And we talk about stress levels and how people go through stress and live through stress. Cope with stress and come out of it. I really want to dive right in and tell me about that defining moment. Obviously we're talking about cancer here. We all know it. Kudos to you, a 2-time cancer survivor. I mean, bravo, very silent clap, but it's a clap nevertheless. So tell me a little bit more about that, those moments in your life.

Yeah. So, uh, like when it comes to The imposter syndrome, right? Like, the cancer was actually kind of the catalyst for helping me overcome that. And I hope that nobody has to experience and go through cancer to, to get there. But it— when I got, when I got hit with cancer, right, like, it's, it's the scariest words you can hear in your, your life, right? Like, you have cancer. And I always tell people, if you're ever concerned about it, like, hey, go get checked. Because as scary as the words you have cancer are, They're a lot better than if we had caught it sooner.

Right.

Uh, so if you're— don't be afraid of the doctor. Go, go get it checked, whatever it is. And, um, but anyway, like, so going through cancer, right, like, you start to realize how short life is and how quickly everything can be taken away from you. At this point in my life, I'm going to the gym, I'm feeling healthy, I'm eating good. Uh, cancer was the last thing on my mind. But the first time I was 30, you know, so I was like, oh, this can't— I'm only 30, like, I can't— for people way older. Uh, and I know people obviously younger than 30 get cancer too, but, uh, you just— you just— it's one of those things that you just never feel like it's gonna happen to you. So as I was going through chemo, you know, you have a lot of time to sit and think.

Right.

And all you— all I could think about was all the things in life that that I didn't do and how if I made it through, I was going to go do them. And then furthermore, I started to think like, why didn't I do those things?

Right.

You know, and, and a lot of times it just came down to fear. And, you know, not necessarily fear like, I had never jumped out of a plane because I'm afraid the parachute won't open. It was that, that imposter syndrome fear of like, oh, I'm not, I'm not good enough. Or like, I haven't accomplished enough in My life or my career, and one of the things that I always wanted to do was was get my MBA. And more than that, and that's an educational goal of mine. No one in my family prior to myself had gotten a bachelor's degree, so I wanted to take it one step further and get an MBA. And then, you know, while I'm going through. chemo and, and all that, you know, I put that goal in my head of like, okay, if I make it out of this, like, I'm going to get an MBA. And on top of that, I really wanted to challenge myself to go to a top school. When I was in high school, I never gave college much thought. I did. And then after that, I was like, well, I don't know, I guess I'm supposed to go somewhere. So I started at community college. It was supposed to be a 2-year degree there. That took me 7.

Okay.

And then after that, I finished up my 4-year degree at a college that literally doesn't even exist anymore today. I always took the easy way out, and I did that looking back now because there was less risk. There was less risk of not being accepted into the college. There was less risk of failing. The school that I went to had a partnership with the community college, so you were guaranteed acceptance. So it was like, okay, that's why, that's really why I did that, because it was safe and it was easy. You know, I said, okay, once I get through this, I'm gonna really try to push it and really try to get into a top school. And as I started going through that, even, you know, so got through cancer and I was like, all right, you know, it's time to start looking at schools and start applying. But then once I did that, Right. you know, that imposter syndrome creeps back in because I'm looking at some of the top schools and I'm like, man, I don't have that much experience, you know, like They're looking for executives. Like, you know, I worked at— like, I literally started in used car sales, you know, and that's where I built my career. And, you know, there's obviously a stigma that comes with used car sales. And so— and used car salespeople, like, I mean, you always see it in commercials and ads and all that. So, and even though I worked my way up, you know, from salesperson to assistant director of sales, like, you know, that always stuck with me.

Right.

And then work for, you know, a startup that We did okay, but we wound up going under. So I'm like, man, I only have the bare minimum of years of experience that they're looking for. I worked for a startup that nobody's ever heard of. And before that, used car sales. I was like, man, I don't— that imposter syndrome starts to creep back in.

Yeah, because in your head, you don't fit the definition of somebody that would do an MBA based on your brain, understanding of it, right? Yes, absolutely.

Yeah. Like, I'm looking at— you want to look at all this? But yeah, well, so there's a science to it, right? Like, uh, how I got over it was because, again, I'm looking at all their statistics on like average salary, you know, titles and all this. I'm like, but I was like, man, I had a goal and I gotta do it. So I started to— I started with schools that I thought I had a good chance to get into. So, you know, I looked and went to, you know, I looked at the top 100 schools, and then I found some schools that were outside of the top 100, and I was like, okay, let me start there.

Right.

Uh, so I applied to a couple of those and I got accepted, and then I was like, oh wow, I didn't even think that was gonna happen. So then, then I was like, well, let me just try some from 75 to 100, and I got accepted in those. And then I was like, well, let me try 25 to 50. Got accepted into there. And then I was like, all right, well, let me, you know, let me try top 25. And so, you know, moved into the top 10, top 15. You know, I looked at University of Michigan is ultimately where I went to. And I was like, okay, those, that's my shooting star. Like, let me see if I can get in there because I wanted to go there. One, you know, growing up, I was always a, you know, Michigan fan. And 2, just, you know, great school. And it was, and it hit the ranking that I was looking for. And it all sounds vain, I know, but it It's what I wanted.

So it's not vain. It's not vain. It's good. It's ambition. Yeah.

Yeah. So then I went ahead and I applied, had my interviews, and I got in there. And another top program, UVA Darden, uh, also. So, you know, it was— and it was at that point I was like, oh man, okay, that started to give me that maybe I am good enough belief.

And yeah, you acted. You acted on your imposter syndrome.

Yeah.

This is where your brain starts understanding that there's nothing to fear here. This is happening. So hold on a second. This is not what I thought. So the fact that you went step by step, you kind of warmed up your brain to the idea of you deserving to do an MBA, that you belong in that environment. Whereas your brain was wired into, I'm not worthy enough. It's wired for fear. The thing with the brain, it's fascinating because I'm sure a lot of people listening now, as well as you, as myself too included, I don't know if you've ever noticed that how your brain or your mind seems to automatically jump to the worst-case scenario. You know, I'm not going to fit in. Oh, this is not going to work. And you're excited about this thing and you really want it. But You just— your brain is not ready to see you in a certain situation that it's not familiar with. It's not your fault. It's not— there's nothing wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with us people with imposter syndrome. It's just that the brain is wired to keep you safe, to scan for threats and keep you safe. So for the brain, this is new. This is uncharted territory. This is basically fear territory. So, it's gonna just do everything possible to keep you from doing that. And it's basically, I guess we call it the negativity bias. It's wired to prioritize fear over freedom kind of thing. And it's because of our ancestors because missing a threat meant dying, being dead. So, it's just old wiring that we need to kind of unwire and rewire in a way. And the way to do it, you did, is that you just went ahead and did it anyway and applied, right? And then you got in. And then that was a whole different challenge, I bet, being around the people. Tell me a little bit about how you felt. Briefly, tell me a little bit about how you felt when you met your colleagues at the MBA because you got in a really good MBA program. And I, I want to just tell us a little bit about that, how you felt.

Yeah, sure. Yeah, so, you know, you get in and then, you know, that like, as you mentioned, then I start meeting everybody and, you know, you're seeing everybody's bios and I'm in there with cardiologists and neurosurgeons and VPs of companies and, uh, you know, large companies like, you know, like Bosch and, you know, people that, you know, work at 3M and all these big, well-known companies and they have, you know, these strong titles behind their name. And then here I am, like a failing startup, uh, you know, and, and I'm like, man, yeah, I started again. Imposter syndrome creeps back in. So literally what I started to tell myself was like, uh, this was during COVID So I was like, enrollment numbers must be down. So they let me slide because it's COVID and a lot of people probably aren't applying.

Right. Okay. Interesting.

I literally just made that up in my head. Yeah.

Your brain is trying to explain things. Things are not making sense. How am I in this room? Right? It's not wired for that. It wasn't wired for that.

Okay. I neglected the part about, even though I was teasing when I call it a failing startup, but we did go from, I was there from seed round to series to Series C. We raised over $40 million. That's not what my brain wanted to hear though. My brain wanted to hear, that's COVID. That's why you got in.

Yeah.

You know, and, uh, but what was really interesting is as I started, you know, meeting, meeting the cohort and talking to people, I don't want to say everybody, but a lot of people felt the same way. You know, even some of the, the doctors, like the cardiologists and neurosurgeons, like they're looking at me and they're like, well, how do you know so much? And they're like, they're like, I feel so far behind. And like, you know, like marketing, for instance, they're like, I don't know anything about marketing. And it's like, you seem to know all this stuff. I'm like, I don't know anything about half of what you guys do. And like, you know, I'm looking at you thinking you all must think this is a breeze because this is not brain surgery, and then you literally do brain surgery. So like, yeah, you know, so it was interesting to, to kind of see that, that it's like, okay, everybody's uncomfortable here and everybody feels some level of, of imposter syndrome because it's not, it's not their world. Like the things that I, that The knowledge that I had that I took for granted, it was knowledge that they were seeking from a sales side, from a marketing side, from a business side.

The reason you were there, David, is clear. It wasn't because it was COVID and they just wanted somebody in. This is obviously what your brain is telling you, but it's because you added value to this cohort. And typically with MBAs, I did my executive MBA at McGill HEC in Montreal. And you have a casting. These people are brilliant. They put you in the right cohort because they want people from different, from diverse backgrounds to complete each other's knowledge. Imagine everybody's an engineer in the room. What are you going to learn? There's no challenge here. And same, I had the same exact experience and I totally felt imposter syndrome until I realized everybody was feeling it. And I don't know about you, but you can tell me. But throughout the whole time, in every module, people get to know you're adding value and you're sharing your experience and people just stop and listen to you. And I mean, I was in a way, I wasn't at the level either. I wasn't a C-suite. I wasn't a CEO or anything like that at the time. And I felt like I didn't belong here. But every time I had things to share, I had things to— I was able to add value. I had so many ideas and So many experiences working with people, with teams at the time. And they were all taking it in and thanking me and treating me like I'm queen team something, you know. And I'm going, what? This is like regular knowledge. No, it's not. Because not everybody has the chance to experience things that you're experiencing. So, we measure our success differently. And then, there you go. Your brain surgeon literally told you. Feel as much as an imposter here as you do. This is extremely interesting, obviously. And like I said, it's the brain keeping you safe. And it just treats uncertainty as a life-threatening— as a life threat.

Right.

And it's going to do everything to block that because that's what it's wired for, for survival. This is why acting upon the fear The courage comes through action and acting upon it. This is where we start to understand. The brain starts to understand, like no, we're not dying here. This is this is okay. I'm gonna be fine. And then it gets the more gets familiar and comfortable, and then imposter syndrome eventually goes away. Then again, if it's a pattern that you have, some people have most of the time. They're always self doubt, self doubting is because they're not aligned. You know, and what what happens? It's okay because you you could be in a different situation, and now this. This is a new situation. Now, you feel an imposter again. But when you've seen it and experienced it before and acted upon it, now you have a different reference point and you can go, well, you know what? I thought that was bad and I was gonna die because I wasn't an MBA and I had no— I didn't know what I was doing there. And it went amazing and it proved me wrong. I think I'll be fine here.

Yeah.

You know?

So, 100%. I want to touch on something that you said too about earlier when you were mentioning these thoughts and ideas that pop into your head and you're like, well, everybody must know this if I know this. And that's something that I struggled with too. And that's another way that imposter syndrome shows up. It's like I was talking to one professor after class and then a couple of the cohort after class and the professor was— and it was a marketing class. I was like, well, I was thinking this about the marketing thing. And they're like, well, how come you didn't say that in class? Because it was like, I was like, well, I figured if I know it, everybody knows it. Like, I didn't— I was like, I just figured everybody was thinking this. I just wanted to make sure I was thinking right. And then, you know, she was like, no, she's like, you gotta, you know, you gotta speak up more in class and share those ideas. And then talking with other people outside of class about things, it's the same, you know, you get the same response. And they like, oh man, like, I didn't even think of it that way. And I'm like, but that was like the first thing that came to my mind. And like, and in my head, I'm like, if I think it, everybody must think it. And I think that's a way in, like posting on LinkedIn, for example. If somebody's out there trying to build their following and build their network, I think that's something that a lot of people struggle with too. Because that's something that I would struggle with is like, I don't wanna post this on LinkedIn because this is basic. So everybody knows this. So if I'm gonna go post, I need it to be groundbreaking and earth-shattering. So then you start posting and people are like, dude, I never even thought of that. Or like, I love this. And you're like, oh wow. Like, maybe I should do this more.

This is like overthinking, self-doubt, imposter syndrome. It feels automatic. It's just your brain keeping you safe, right? And it's going to tell you what it needs to tell you just to keep you from doing something. But these are not random thoughts. They're pretty much our brain's default system, safety system, I should say. It's like a safety mechanism. But the exciting thing is that, and I mean, you've proven it. I think I have too in my career, is that diving in anyway is how you train your brain to rewire for courage, rewire for freedom, rewire for growth, as opposed to be just stuck and be wired for fear. And the best way is to act upon it because you think that voice is telling you all these things. But really, what is it based on?

Sure.

Fear, self-doubt, anxiety, lack of self-confidence, past experiences that shape us. We're human, of course, but that's where growth comes in. And I think in your case, and correct me if I'm wrong, maybe that trigger, the cancer, was the kind of the push that you needed. I mean, obviously, gosh, you didn't really Had to go through that for that, and you probably would have figured out a way to overcome imposter syndrome. But you chose to see cancer as a gift, and I often talk about this. You know, the challenges life happens for you, not to you. And when it happens, and it's sometimes bad, you have two choices: you can just drown in anxiety, self-doubt, fear. really beating yourself up over things. Or you can say, okay, I'd rather think of this in a positive way. How can I turn this into a positive? Because it's happened anyway. And you have, you really compressed that time and you just went for it. And I just hope that you're over imposter syndrome. I mean, from what I get from you, you know, you're more comfortable with it. And I think you're kind of an expert on that now.

Thank you.

do that you're thinking, I shouldn't be doing it, maybe I'm not good enough? Is there one? Am I picking your brain now? Like, I don't want you to—

Yeah, at this moment, I don't know. Like, because I feel— because now that I've, you know, reached that, that goal in my life, uh, you know, which was the MBA, and went through it, you know, faced that imposter syndrome head-on for once instead of taking the easy way out, met other people— like, I, I'm in such a good place mentally now where there's— and I don't want to say like, you know, I don't want to sound like arrogant or cocky, but where it's like I'm not worried about going into any room now and, you know, like who's going to be there, uh, or, you know, going into any situation and being like, oh, am I good enough? Uh, like now I'm just like, I'm good, you know, I'm confident, I'm at peace, and yeah, I'm good.

Yeah.

You know, there are still little battles, uh, you know, where it's like Or there might be a little bit of doubt that creeps in. But then, it's just like, stop it. What is that? Go away, doubt.

The thing is it's not that imposter syndrome goes away. I always talk about mental fitness as a way just to be aware, self-aware, mindful of what is the conversation happening in our head. What are these thoughts that are affecting my feelings, affecting how I act, how I show up? Or limiting me from opportunities. Just being mindful of them. So, the more you're mindful, you can anticipate them. Even if you don't anticipate them, just knowing they're there and knowing what they are and labeling them already, you're turning down the dial on these. And they're not over. They don't have that same effect on you as they would before. It's not because now we're invincible because we've overcome imposter syndrome. You just the more you do that, the more you practice mindfulness. The more mentally fit you are. It's just daily practice because something is going to show up eventually. Even when you rewire your brain, there's still going to be the, you know, your brain is wired for survival, like to keep you alive. And it's a good thing because sometimes it needs to keep you alive, right? So it's just that having that discernment between this is not me, this is not me. This is just my brain telling me to be careful. And just labeling it. And then, all of a sudden, it's not even a thing anymore. It just slides off of you. It's not controlling your actions. It's not inhibiting you from doing what you need to do.

Right.

And I think when you normalize it, I think we need to normalize that as opposed to like, oh my God, imposter syndrome. Oh, it's important to know it's not great. But knowing, oh, here's my imposter syndrome showing up. All right, gotcha. Yeah, but I don't need that now. I'm good. I'm gonna do it. I love the cat meowing in the background.

Yeah, I can let him out.

You can, you can bring her or bring him in if you want. I'm a cat lover, so. Okay.

He might pop up here. I don't know. We'll see.

All right. I really want to jump into our rapid-fire questions. So these are pretty much 30 seconds, roughly 20 to 30 seconds answers, and just go with whatever comes to mind. What is the first sign that imposter syndrome is creeping into a team or into your team?

Oh man, that's a good one. I think you're gonna get your wish. Here you go. Hello, buddy.

For those of you listening to the audio right now, we have David's cat on screen. Very nice cat, by the way. Yeah. So what would be the first sign? How is somebody acting when you know This is pretty much imposter syndrome right now.

Okay. So I think for me, when looking at a team and trying to identify, like, hey, when is imposter syndrome creeping up or creeping in? It's who on the team is being quiet? And because a lot of times that's where it shows up is, like we were talking about earlier, somebody's not speaking up because they may not think their idea is good enough, or they may not think that they're answer is, is the right answer, or—

Right, they're holding back. Yeah.

So it's— so the trick then is like, because you don't want to single them out and make them feel uncomfortable, so you might have to sit with them one-on-one and, you know, then start. Maybe they're more comfortable in a one-on-one setting, and then start to chop it up with them and chat with them a little bit more, and then try to deep dive into their, into their psyche a little bit more, and then, then get their— pull their ideas out of them and I've seen those situations unfold where I'm on the other side, not the one with the imposter syndrome. But when you see that person start to light up and you see them get really excited and really passionate about their ideas, and then you're like, boom, this is gold.

This is what's— yeah, there you go. And we can definitely recognize it when we do have lived that, for sure. Imposter syndrome, somebody that suffers from it definitely can recognize it. And I think it's empathy as well. I think it takes a lot of empathy to be able to read it, right? If you're just not really connecting with other people, even if you actually live in imposter syndrome, probably you won't have that connection and go, this might be something like that, right? So, I think empathy definitely needs to be there. All right. The last question is a book or podcast that rewired how you lead.

Yeah, so the most influential book that, uh, that I, that I use is to quote to this day is it's How to Talk to Anyone. It's 92 Little Ways to Make a, you know, Big Difference in Your Conversations. I think it's how the rest of the title goes, but, but it's by Leil Downs.

Okay.

It's just awesome. Uh, it gives you all these different tips and tricks that you can use And it's not one of those books that you have to read the whole thing to understand what she's talking about. You can just flip to the page and it gives you a hot tip. I like that.

Okay. Practical kind of. You can just get something out of it in 5, 10 minutes, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. So we're going to go ahead with the listener challenge. I know some of you are probably going, okay, where's the listener challenge? What do I do? So this is a very easy one. I mean, Easy is relative. But it's doable, people. It's doable. You could do it. Okay? So, just be mindful of when and where you feel like an imposter. Something's probably happened before or something's coming up. The idea is to list two tiny actions that you're gonna take anyway, regardless. Example, if you have a meeting coming up and you always feel like an imposter and you always want to share things with you, like who cares and what am I? What do I know? I'm going to sound stupid. Whatever voice is telling you that inner critic, just turn it down. Okay? Do us a favor. Turn it down and dare to write down these actions you're going to do. Example, ask a smart question or volunteer an idea or comment on something. Add value. Whatever it is for you that you've been holding back on, please write it down and pick one. You don't have to do 2. Just pick one and do it in the next 48 hours. So, it's all about action, taking action. And share it with #NeuroLeadershipEdge. Please tag me. Please tag David. I'm sure David will be happy to hear about it as well. Again, remember, you don't overcome imposter challenge by sitting and ruminating over it. It's all by acting. And finally, I just wanted to remind you to subscribe and follow our podcast, The NeuroLeadership Edge. And you'll see a QR code here on top. Please do scan it for current webinars, upcoming masterclasses. I also have a lot of free resources, so don't be shy to just scan that and go get them. David, would love to hear from you. Maybe just last words before we log off here.

Yeah. Well, thanks for having me. I think for anybody dealing with imposter syndrome or feeling that, I think what you just mentioned is key. Like, take those little steps. For me, it was just applying to schools I thought had a better chance of getting into. Take those little steps and to start to combat it, because it's not, there's not a one-size-fits-all approach and it's not a light on, light off type of moment where you're not gonna have a eureka moment, but you take the little steps to, to start combating it. Why are you feeling that way? And, and recognize that your thoughts are just stories that you tell yourself and you can rewire those stories to be whatever story you want. Like, it literally is up to you. What you think and why you think it.

And the keyword is rewire. You said it. Thank you for saying it, David. Now you're speaking my language. I like you more now. So rewire those thoughts. Your brain is neuroplastic. You're not stuck with this. It's trying to keep you safe. But when you recognize it and you act, you are rewiring new neural pathways, a new way to do things. And that's the start of your growth. So, lead boldly, stay human. Don't forget, turn every challenge into a gift. And see you next time. Thank you all for joining us today. And we'll see you very soon. Thanks so much, David.

Thank you.