The Decision Every Leader Needs to Make Before Pressure Forces Them To with Borja Cuan

Every leader talks about putting people first. Very few actually build a system that actually proves it. My guest today built a successful digital marketing agency. Strong revenue, growing client base, numbers heading right in the right direction. And his team was unfortunately quietly burning out. The pressure from big contracts, big clients was really affecting them. The pace was unsustainable. And the environment they had built without realizing it was one that was slowly eroding the people behind every result. What happened next is what separates the leaders worth listening to from the ones who just got lucky. He saw it. He named it out loud. And he changed it. This is the NeuroLeadership Edge. And this episode is about What it actually takes to lead people through pressure without losing them in the process. Welcome to the NeuroLeadership Edge, the show where we unravel what it actually takes to lead under pressure, perform at the highest level, and build that mental mindset and architecture that holds when everything around you is moving really fast. I'm Claire Hayek, neuroleadership expert, TEDx speaker, and founder of Mind Soul Purpose Team Building. I designed the Pressure Proof Leadership Operating System to keep leaders clear, calm, and decisive when the pressure hits and when the stakes are high. 3 things you are walking away with today. A clear look at what burnout inside a growing business actually looks like before it becomes a crisis. And the moment a leader, one leader actually, decided to stop and redesign it. We're also going to learn the reframe on the client versus employee tension that every service business faces and why getting this wrong costs far more than a client contract. I'm not sure if you thought about that one. We're gonna unravel that today. And 3, the leadership shift that moves you from needing all the answers to building a team that actually generates better ones. My guest today is Borja Kwan. Borja has been in performance advertising since 1998. He is the co-founder of 415 Digital, a Google Premier Partner, where he heads and leads with a combination of big-picture strategy and precise execution. His North Star has always been delivering real business impact alongside a first-class client experience. And the story he is sharing today is about what happened when those 2 things came into direct conflict with a 3rd priority he had been underweighting. Borja, welcome to the NeuroLeadership Edge. How are you?

Hi, Claire. I'm doing well. How are you?

I'm very good. Great to have you on the show. So let's jump right in. Let's take me to that moment. 415 Digital, as you know, we did meet before this. We talked about basically your story. So 415 Digital is growing, right? Numbers are moving in the right direction. This is that moment we're talking about. So everything from the outside looks like success. But inside, your team is close to burnout. If you take us back to that period, what did you actually observe? And when did you actually realize this was a leadership problem, not an operational one?

Yeah, so this was about 2 years into starting the business. I co-founded the agency in 2017. And like many founders, you're really focused on winning your first customer. Right? The amount they pay you doesn't really matter. You just want to get your first customer in the portfolio and prove to them that you are really good at what you do, especially for a new agency, unknown. We don't have this track record. We can't say we've had an agency for 20 years.

Right.

We can talk about our experience and where we come from and build trust that way. But at the end of the day, we're an unknown quantity to a new client. And so our goal is to really overdeliver and create a raving fan out of them because we knew if we did a good job, we would get referrals from that client. So we were very obsessive over retaining our customers and would really do anything that was asked, even if it meant scoping, you know, creep scope, you know, scoping kind of the statement of work and doing above and beyond what was contracted for. And what I observed is that while our intentions were very good in terms of wanting to do a good job for our customers and over-delivering, ultimately that did not lead to high employee quality of life.

Right.

And so that was an observation I made by simply just observing people in an office, just watching them and talking to them and better understanding what a day in their life was. I was looking at how many hours they were working, were they working nights? Were they working weekends? How did they— what was their demeanor like or disposition like in the office? What was the vibe and the culture like? And what I realized is it wasn't what we wanted or what we were aspiring for. And I was realizing quickly that those pressures were somewhat coming from the customer, but a lot of them were coming from leadership. I.e., myself, right? So some of the client pressure existed, but a lot of that pressure was being created by us, or myself, let's say, in this case, because we were so obsessive over retention and it was a hypercompetitive environment and we knew other agencies were going after our clients and trying to win that business.

Right.

And so I was putting a lot of pressure on the team to do a really good job. But I realized I was prioritizing the client way too much over the employee. And so, I quickly, once I became aware of that, I quickly realized that was not a sustainable way of doing business. And I would not keep my employees happy, which ultimately would affect the client experience because unhappy employee usually leads to unhappy customer.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what you're describing here, Burha, is what we call the threat response cascade in neuroscience. When people are consistently operating at or beyond their capacity, basically the brain shifts into survival mode. And you're no longer accessing prefrontal cortex, which is your brain CEO. This is where their best thinking is happening, their creativity, their judgment, their collaboration, etc. And the fight-or-flight amygdala takes over. And here's what makes this dangerous for leaders. It happens gradually. It creeps up on us. And people don't announce that, hey, my brain is being hijacked, right? And then they get used to it. And this is where things could really go downhill. And unfortunately, by the time it becomes visible, the system has already been under strain probably for a long time. What was really great is that you were able to recognize the early signals. And that is a skill most leaders never really develop, unfortunately, because they are too focused on the output.

Right.

To notice what's happening to the people producing the output. That's the irony of it, right? Now, you made a decision to flip the priority. Employees over clients. Simple. That is a statement that makes a lot of leaders uncomfortable. I'm sure a lot of our listeners are going, what do you mean? Wait a second. Especially when we're talking about this in a service business. And I can totally relate to that, right? I'm like, I'm really curious about this. So, Because the client relationship is so important and that client relationship is your revenue, right? Walk me through that shift. What did it actually look like in practice when you said employees over clients? And what did you say to your team when you decided, when you named it out loud, basically?

Yeah. Well, obviously, as a sales pitch, I don't think prospects would be very impressed with me making that the first point, employees over clients. Obviously, because clients think they only matter, right?

Yes.

For the most part. So what I want to be clear with is, yes, we made that shift, and yes, I acknowledged it. And most importantly, what I wanted to do is talk to the team and make this actually part of a meeting. And it was really the sole subject that I wanted to discuss. And the first thing I did was acknowledge my failure as a leader and make them aware that I made a mistake. Plain and simple. Team, I want you to know my intentions were good, my execution was bad, and I recognize that not making it employees over clients was the wrong decision. And so that was the first thing I did, was acknowledging my wrongdoing or failure as a leader.

Right.

And then also equally, if not more important, was what is the shift I'm going to make? in order to make this a better place to work for them, right? Which essentially is what we're talking about here. So it was, hey, I understand I made a mistake. Let me explain why I did what I did. So they understood kind of my thinking as a founder. And I said, hey, you know, obviously it's very competitive. We're a newer business. We're trying to prove ourselves. I really want to make a good impression on these clients. I want to do everything we can to make them successful. So this is why I did what I did.

Now it's—

I get it. It's not excusing that decision because what I'm telling you now is I'm realizing that was the wrong decision. But I wanted to tell you why and the reason I was doing what I was doing.

Right. And I mean, when a leader is transparent about a mistake and commits to a different direction, that's amazing. It really shifts the whole room, right? And establishes that trust. And that's the first step. But please go ahead. Continue.

Yeah, and it's also about being vulnerable and admitting that you are not perfect. You can't make it seem, even if you're the co-founder, CEO, president, whatever title you are, that doesn't mean you don't make mistakes. And that doesn't mean you're not trying to figure things out. And so what I try to do with people is say, hey, I'm gonna try to be perfect, but I will never be perfect. So I'm gonna try to do the best I can.

Right.

And there will be times where I will make a mistake. And what I want you to know is that I'll always be honest. I will tell you where my failures are, and I will not repeat those a second time. Right?

Right.

And so, like, for me, it's about saying, hey, even though I carry this title and this responsibility, I still am a human, and I'm gonna make the occasional mistake. Hopefully, I don't make these often, but make big ones. But the point is, is I'm here to tell you I made a mistake. And it's important because people respect you more when you acknowledge that. And they can relate to you more too. So they can say, hey, he's going to come clean. He's going to tell us when he does something that he doesn't agree with. Or he also has a good pulse on how we're doing or what the culture is like. So that matters to me. So that's why I did it. And I did make it clear to them, this doesn't mean, by the way, that being in a professional services environment, we, our clients are not allowed to be demanding. They can still be demanding. They're paying a premium for a service. We have to provide the best-in-class service. So that isn't what I'm talking about here. It's really just the things that I'm doing internally to create more stress in your life that I want to address and become better at.

Right.

And I think that right there solved for 98% of the issues, right? And then whenever there's a client that's excessively demanding on a teammate, I would just say, hey, that's when you use me as a resource, and I will intervene, and I won't put that responsibility or burden on you. And I'll come in and I'll talk to the client on your behalf and say, hey, listen, Claire really cares about your business and is working hard, but we can't be excessively demanding and having her focus on your account only, because honestly, that's not really what the scope of work defines. So I try to coach them, mentor them, help them in that way if it's client-driven. But my part, I kind of addressed and said, this won't happen again.

Yeah, I mean, you're pretty much owning to your title and to your responsibility as a leader and have their back. And that's how trust is developed. This is how it's built basically through moments exactly like the one you're describing right here. So, you are showing up at that moment as a human being who sees what's happening and is acting the right way to protect everyone, his assets, which are his employees, as well as their clients, right? I mean, it's a win-win for everyone. You said something I want to stay with that you wish more leaders understood that clarity matters more than certainty during change. That is a distinction most leaders miss. They wait until They have all the answers before they communicate anything. And staying silent, what happens is their team pretty much they have to fill the gap, right? And usually, unfortunately, it's with the worst possible interpretation. Somebody's going silent, especially the leader. So, what does leading with clarity actually look like when you genuinely do not have all the answers in your opinion?

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, clarity matters more than certainty because certainty is often unavailable while clarity is always achievable. So I think clarity is what enables action. And so for me, I believe in just in general, my philosophy is being brutally transparent with, with the team on things, both the good and the bad.

Mm-hmm.

And I say this to anybody who interviews at my organization. I say, really ask me whatever you want, right? Whatever is top of mind, whatever is most important for you to learn about this business or myself or the role. I want to be as honest and transparent as possible. So for me, clarity is really important because I feel like when you're very clear with people, They're able to understand what the expectations are. They're able to contribute more. Ambiguity is where things start to, you know, you start to create a lot of friction, right? Whether it's a client relationship or an employee relationship, when things are vague or not clear is where people start feeling a bit lost and they don't know which direction to go. And so I'm such a stickler with being clear with communication because I found that every relationship that fails, it usually comes back to bad communication or lack thereof.

Right. Go ahead. Sorry.

No, I was just going to say, like, it's to me the single most important skill set. And as a leader, really, it all starts with being clear with people, right? So for me, on day 1, I want to understand what you want to get out of this journey working for my company, no different than I want you to understand what I hope to get out of you. because it's a value exchange, right? You're coming here to work at 415 Digital with the hopes of achieving certain goals and objectives professionally, financially, personally, whatever they are. And me as the employer are looking to get contribution from you. So we both have to be very clear with what we want to get out of this experience that we're about to embark with together. And then we have to work together to help us accomplish that because I'm going to define what I want to get out of you, but I need to also put a plan together. I need to make sure that I track the progress or lack thereof. You need to be very clear with what your goals are because I want to understand, do you want to make a certain amount of money? Do you want to achieve a title? Do you want to have a certain level of responsibility? What is the outcome you want to have, say, 2 years after your experience here?

Yeah, I mean, this is, this is a really important point. And I wanted to add something more about the ambiguity. When people do not know what is happening, what's going on, what's expected of them, it's just not very clear. Literally, you're the brain goes into that. It treats it like this is an unknown. This is uncertainty. And this uncertainty becomes the danger. It's a danger signal. So, people start generating their own narrative. And it probably has nothing to do with the reality. But when you are clear as a leader and you communicate clearly, even when that communication is, here is what we know. Here's what we don't know. Or here's what we are going to be doing moving forward. And here's what the threats are. And We're going to figure this out together. That gives them the certainty and just gives them the direction, the honesty, the consistency, and puts them back into their safe space, right? So, that's something that is so important that sometimes we take for granted because as leaders, we are struggling with our own uncertainty and not knowing what we're doing also sometimes. Even if sometimes you know what you're doing, you cannot predict everything. But saying it out loud and putting it out there and what, to your point, Being able to have that conversation and people feel that they can come to you.

100%. Yeah, there's nothing, there's nothing worse than when I'm the customer and people leave me in the dark, right? There's no communication, right? I've hired someone to provide a service, right? Whatever that service is, and they're not doing a good job in the area of communication. They're just, you know, what I always say to people, even if you don't have an update, you're working on something for me and you don't have an update, messaging me and telling me I don't have an update is better than not saying anything.

Yes.

Because it shows me that you're still on top of it. So you said something very poignant, and I'm going to say it the same with maybe more specificity, which is I want to be in control of the narrative. So like, for me, I want to be the one to be in control of the narrative, good or bad. And I think when people do that, I think people feel more connected because the last thing I want there to be is speculation, right? Like, oh, we're not— we don't know, we don't know, they haven't updated us on how the company's doing, so it's maybe doing bad, right?

Right.

Or there's just various scenarios whereby I think people start making their own sort of connections or narrative, and then you're— it's really off base. So really, it's important to be really clear with your communication. It's a very important leadership skill set.

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Now, you were honest about something that I really respect when we had our conversation prior to this episode. You said retention is still hard. The pressure from large clients is still there. You are still navigating that tension every day. And of course, I mean, I think people that don't admit to that Are either living in the dark or just in complete denial or just pretending, right? So, for leaders listening who are in the middle of this right now, not on the other side of it, right inside of it, right? What do you want them to know about leading through that tension of basically the pressure of having large clients and not knowing all the answers and having that tension every day? What do you want them to know? Without losing, you know, how to lead through this session without losing either their clients or their people.

Yeah, it's, it's hard, right? Uh, and it's not always gonna make sense is something I'll say. I always try to focus on the things I can control, right? And I've been very good about that, um, because I think focusing on the things you can't control is wasted energy. So be excellent and focusing on the things that you can control. Retention is very difficult. I've had employees who've worked for me who have asked me for something, and I've given them more.

Right.

I've given them more. They've said to me, I'm very happy here. And in the same breath, they say, thank you for giving me this huge promotion. It's exactly what I wanted. I'm very happy here. I'm gonna try something else. Yeah, like I've given them everything. We had a good relationship. There's nothing that I have not given them that they've asked for, even before they asked me, and they still want to try something new. Grass is browner, potentially, or, hey, I want to try this, someone approached me.

Right.

And that's really tough, right? Because you've, you've done everything within your power to retain someone and that wasn't enough. And it just— what I would say is just know that do the best you can. And if they still leave, that's okay. What's always not satisfying is not having done enough for someone you wanted to stay.

Yeah.

Just make sure you are, you know, building relationships with your team. If you want to address retention, start with a very basic concept, which is build a relationship with your team. Put the efforts required to build relationships. Relationships don't prosper or thrive without effort. So if you really care about retaining a team and building a world-class team, you need to take the time to get to know your team, whether that's you or someone below you, whoever's managing them. Whoever is managing a team, whether you're a manager, a leader, it doesn't matter. You really need to spend the time to build deep connections with your team, right?

Right.

Because if you do not, you will risk losing them. And by connections, I mean Get to know them both professionally and personally. Don't always make it about work. Every conversation you have doesn't have to be about work. Try to become friends. It's a bonus when my team is spending time together on weekends because they genuinely enjoy each other's company. It's not a requirement to become friends and spend personal time together, but when you do, it's the best of both worlds.

Absolutely.

I remember when I first worked at my company out of college, I look forward to more than anything going to work to hang out with my friends. I was learning, but I saw it also as an opportunity to spend time with people I liked.

Right.

And so for me, it's really creating those opportunities, creating an environment where that's, that's something we want people to be doing. But as a leader, as a manager, it's really getting to know you as a person, understanding what matters to you.

Yeah, making that connection is very important in these circumstances, and it's something that is undervalued. And this is why a lot of people struggle with the virtual and the hybrid and the in-person. You need to take the time to develop these relationships, these connections. You don't have to be family. They say, you know, my coworkers are like my family, you know. Yes and no. Let's be real. They're not your family, but they could be really your buddies, your friends, and you could really care for them by nurturing that connection. I think you said it. It is something definitely that is very important that a lot of people are not, probably not investing in it as much as they should. Well, it's time for our rapid fire. And I have a couple of questions for you. So this is quick answers. First thing that comes to mind, what is the single most underrated quality in a leader?

Under-empathy.

One thing you wish someone had told you in year one, of building 415 Digital?

Don't forget about your employees.

There we go. And that's full circle. Here we are. I mean, we're approaching the end of the episode. If you're leading a team right now, and I really want to finish with this, and you recognize something in this conversation, the burnout signal, maybe the client pressure on deadlines, or just really pushing down on your team, or maybe the gap between what your people say and how they're actually performing, and everything else that, Borja, you know, you've shared with us. I do want to share with you the Pressure and Performance Scorecard, which is a free diagnostic, free assessment that shows you exactly where pressure is compromising your team's performance right now. Whether it's decision speed, execution quality, how they're feeling, the trust, psychological safety, we pretty much covered it on this episode. It will all be mapped for you in less than 5 minutes. So, if you want, you're interested in taking it, QR code here for you to scan, or you can also Find that link on clairehayek.com. And if you're a leader listening to this and you're carrying that pressure alone, you know, you're really feeling that things are really moving fast for you, I would love for you to grab the Pressure Reset Scripts. They help me every day and this will add tremendous value to you. They pretty much save me before some high-stakes meetings. Basically, they're 30-second tools. They're built for just before a meeting, just before maybe going on stage. It really helps you reset in real time. Again, the code here, and it will also be in the description or on the website. Now, Borja, this was a conversation worth having. The willingness, your willingness to stand in front of your team and say, we built something wrong here. We need to do better. And here's how we are going to fix it. For me, that is true leadership. And point c'est tout, like we say in French, full stop. Thank you for bringing that here.

Thank you.

And to everyone listening, share this with one leader in your life. who is going through that pressure right now, this episode might be exactly what they need to hear. And if you have not subscribed yet, please do it now. Every follow, every subscription helps the show reach higher and bring you the caliber of guests and conversation that may actually make a real difference in how you lead. Burha, any last words for our listeners?

No, thank you for having me. It's been enjoyable.

Well, thank you for coming to the show, everyone. Lead boldly, stay human, and turn every challenge into a gift. There's always a gift.