Why the Moment You Want to Quit Is the Worst Time to Trust Your Own Thinking with Brandon Wetzstein

He got promoted and his first assignment as general manager was to shut the whole store down. Bankruptcy liquidation. Everything must go, including the job he just got. That moment lit something in him, but it didn't break him open. Not yet anyway. That came a few years later when his own business nearly collapsed. He pulled out his resume for the first time in years. And he asked himself 2 questions that changed everything. Today, well, we're going to go over that story and what it means for every leader sitting on the edge of giving up right now. Welcome to the NeuroLeadership Edge. I'm Claire Hayek, NeuroLeadership expert, TEDx speaker, and founder of Mind Soul Purpose Team Building. I spent more than 20 years leading high-stakes projects and teams under pressure. And this show, this is where we explore what it actually takes to lead well when everything is on the line. My guest today is Brandon Wetstein, founder of Innate Create. Brandon spent years leading in corporate retail operations— Best Buy, Target, LVMH. He was always the innovator in the room. He's a certified Lego Serious Play facilitator. Gotta love the Lego. The host of the Herding Squirrels podcast. And he has built his entire business around one conviction: that every person on a team already holds the answer. And the leader's job, listen carefully now, is to build the conditions where those answers can actually surface, that they can come out. Brandon, welcome to the NeuroLeadership Edge. How are you today?

I am wonderful, Claire. Thank you so much. And thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Yes. Well, I'm very excited too. So, before we get into what you've built, because it's great and I can't wait to talk about that later in the episode, I want you to kind of take us back to where it all started. So you shared something that I haven't really stopped thinking about, to be honest with you. Just like, it's pretty unusual. Okay, so here's the thing, right? You said your defining pressure moment was running a bankruptcy liquidation shortly after being promoted to general manager, which is a pretty special kind of thing, like situation that doesn't happen every day. So tell us, what was that like? How did you feel? What was happening?

It was a little bit stressful. And by a little bit, I mean a lot. You know, you walk into a new scenario excited to show what you've learned and what you're capable of, a new level of leadership. Now you're running your store. I was an assistant for years and like, yeah, this is my chance. This is my shot. And you're like, and liquidation. Like, oh my gosh, you seriously? What? And you start looking at, not only am I just stepping into this role, but I have no relationships built in, in the store. Like all these people, we're all new. Like, I know who some of them are. We've met before. But now it's, oh, okay. Hi, I'm your new general manager. And then shortly thereafter, we're shutting down and everyone is going to lose their job in the next 3 to 4 months. Oh, and I, and in the meantime, I hope you stay and work.

What was people's reaction? What did that demand of you and what did you observe around you?

You know, there's a lot of anger. There's a lot of anger because many of the people that had worked there had worked there for years. So there are people that had worked there for 5, 10, 15 years, and suddenly this role, this job they've had that they were, they were great at, they had repeat clientele, is gone. Now, I, the people weren't angry at me. They knew it wasn't my decision to shut down the store, right? So there was something there.

Yeah.

But what it really brought out in, in me, I think, was the absolute need for empathy. It's the only possible way, at least in my mind, that I could have possibly led. It really was looking at people for who they really were as a person. And I think when we think of work relationships, always start off fairly two-dimensional.

Yeah, yeah.

We are our role, and that's just the way it starts. And then it grows from there. The more we know people, we figure out who they are outside of work, their hobbies, Right? What they do, what they like, who they really are, that full personality, not just what they bring and show people day to day. And but I needed to speed that up a much faster rate. And I couldn't just say, well, you're a salesperson, you're a customer service rep, you're a warehouse person, right? You are not your role anymore. You are a person who no longer has a job 3 months from now, 4 months from now. And I'm asking you to work for me, hopefully to come on time.

But usually situations like this could really leave a neurological, I guess, imprint, if you want to call it that. And the way you handle pressure in these very, very intense moments really can kind of influence how you handle pressure down the line, right? And how you operate under fire from this point forward. So, speaking of forward, so fast forward, you've left corporate, right? And you've built Innate Creates, your company. You believe in what you're doing. And then, 2023 hits. So tell us what happened.

Ah, yes, 2023. What a, what a fun year. Really what had happened, I had been running my business for about 3, 3 and a half years and had just hit a stagnant, like, 2 quarters in a row with very little business. Uh, and not that I had much regularity before that, but there was at least like, it was just that The writing felt like it was on the wall. Like, this is not going in the right direction. And it was, and for anyone who's, you know, gone down the solopreneurship route, like, I think there are always times where you kind of go, ooh, am I doing the right thing? Like, should I be back in my comfortable corporate job with nice health insurance?

And the perks and, you know, the paid vacation, financial security. Yeah, I could, I could go on.

Keep going. And I think there comes a time time where like there's like enough months without revenue where you're like, okay, like, is this a business or am I just unemployed at this point? And I'm calling it, right? You're at this point where like, is this really, is this really, am I, am I running a business or am I just taking time off and not working and calling it work? Which is not true because of course I'm doing things every day and stuff.

Of course. Yeah.

And, but the realization hit and it was like, okay, maybe, maybe it's time to start thinking about what's next, right? Well, let's, let's start thinking about maybe this isn't the right path. And I'll never forget, I pulled out the resume and I started looking at it. And it had been probably 8 years or 7 years since I had looked at my resume. I hadn't really redone it since I started my organization. So I'm like, oh, I get to add that. And I started looking at it and just this wave of, I just want to call it almost nausea of like, oh my gosh, the job search, which is also not pleasant by any means. And I started looking at this.

I do want to pause here for a second because I think every founder and every leader listening to this right now. Knows exactly what the moment feels like. The resume. The resume comes out. It's a nightmare, right? And I mean, it's just so symbolic of something. It's just a resume, but it's terrifying. And suddenly, you're looking at it thinking, first, am I doing the right thing? What do I even put on this thing? What have I been doing? How did I get here? What's You know, what was going through your head? And basically walk me through, like, okay, this is what was the hamster going through my head. You know, what are these thoughts at that point?

I mean, I think it's exactly as you're outlining it, Claire. It's a combination of seeing something that hasn't been updated in 8 years and having the memory of the pain in the butt that is building a resume, right? This is before AI was around. So you're like, okay, I have to rebuild this again, I have to come up with bullets that explains what I've been doing for the past 3 and a half years. Oh, what would I want to do anyways? Right? Do I go back into the type of role I had before? What, right? Do I do something different now because I've been selling and marketing and facilitating and designing? Is that, that's different than my corporate retail operations job. So does that even make me more qualified or less qualified? Like, what do I even do with this? Uh, and that alone was enough for me to sit back. And go, okay, before I start doing that work, I need to ask myself a couple questions. And one is, have I really given this my all? And, and that's a big question for me because, you know, I've always wanted to start my own business since I was like 12. I've always wanted to start one, and it took a while till I had the idea and the time and the space to do it. But I want to make sure that, right, whenever I'm on my deathbed, I'm looking back without regret. And so I want to make sure that I gave this my all. So that was question number one. And honestly, my honest question— answer at that point was like, no, I've got more. I think there's bigger swings I can take. There's more I can do. So that was number one. Um, I'm not saying I answered it instantaneously, but that was the question that I needed to sit with for a little bit.

Yes. Yes. Because we did, we did talk about the 2 questions when I introduced this episode. So the first question you ask yourself, have I really given it This my all. And then what was the second question?

And the second question is, what, why am I not having fun?

Right.

Uh, I'm a big believer in enjoying work. I think we get a lot of satisfaction. It doesn't mean that I enjoy every aspect about work, but overall there should be some level of enjoyment in doing the hard stuff, right? It can't just be the outcome that is the good part. It has to be. Again, this is my belief. It has to be the work itself has to give some sort of joy. And that means if I, if you're a solopreneur and you have a business and part of your job is selling, you need to find a way to enjoy selling or it's going to be too much of a drag, right?

Oh, yeah.

Or you need to market, you need to figure out a way to enjoy marketing. And so those 2 answers combined were really was, yes, I have more to give. And I need to rethink how I'm doing this. I need to rethink why am I not enjoying my day to day? And, you know, it's been a few years. And so I know the answers to some of those questions of like, why wasn't I having fun? I think I was trying to work out of someone else's playbook.

Right.

Instead of taking what does kind of work, but then making my— making it my own, right? Bringing myself into it.

So, what I'm interested in, I'm fascinated that how did you even get to those questions? Because in that state, you know, when you're under pressure, pulling out your resume, I mean, if there's founders listening to this and business owners, I think you know what that is. I mean, that is just like, you get to that point, it's bad, right? And you're going through a lot. You're under pressure. The pressure is really high. And usually, most people don't get that clear, you know, under pressure. They dramatize, they spiral, and then basically, they make fear-based decisions. I'm not saying pulling out the resume is a fear-based decision. But it could be a solution. There's no right or wrong here. But it's kind of like, I need to fix this fast. We're not pausing. We're not being creative at this point. But you come up with 2 questions. Have I really given this my all? And why am I not having fun? It's pretty Interesting, actually. I mean, what happened in you that let you slow down enough? That's what I'm interested in. Like, what was happening? How did you— were you able to slow down enough to ask those right questions?

I mean, and I think one led to the other, to be honest, right? And I think it really is more of like— I like to think of it as more of like a systemic deep dive, right? Because my, my business, my attitude, how I show up day to day in the world, like, that's all systemic. And it's everything's tied together, as I'm sure you know, with your— right? It's like, how much sleep am I getting? Like, how am I eating well? Like, all of this stuff is tied. And so if— and the first question really was, and to me, that one felt simple to come up with, have I really given this my all? And that's also very personal to me, because I'm, I tend to be, I do daring things, but I do like kind of daring things. Like, you know, I One of my— I have to push myself sometimes to go like, let's go one step beyond. Let's be a little bit bolder. Let's take a risk. Which is something that I, you know, I've always forced myself to do and to think about how to go bigger. And so once I answered that first kind of question, then it was like, okay, then the fun thing was more like, well, why, why am I like not enjoying this? Like, and then it was really digging into— then it became more systemic. of, well, okay, I don't like doing the type of outreach I'm doing. And because I don't like it, then maybe my authenticity isn't showing up, right? Maybe in certain conversations or when I'm doing a pitch or whatever, maybe I'm not excited at what I'm talking about. And that comes across to people. And so, and I don't know if that was the exact logic train that went through, but that's generally my thought process. And the fun piece of it is, again, going back to it, I can't despise what I do every day. There's no way I'm going to make it. So I need to figure out a way to make this more fun. I need to make outreach feel more enjoyable. I need to make marketing feel fun. And maybe it's just fun for me, right? It's gamification for myself so that I wake up every day excited about what I get to do.

It's really interesting because when you're, when you're under pressure, you know, the brain is under threat mode and you're looking for solutions, right? Like the exit, the quick exit. What you did. By asking, have I given this my all? It's kind of like self-awareness. Like you were able to pause and be self-aware, self-assess. It was a self-assessment question. Let's put it this way, right? Which pulled you kind of out of your fight or flight response and into more the prefrontal cortex, your brain CEO, more clear, aligned, kind of like, let's realign here. What's happening? And then, which led to, why am I not having fun? I know I'm like going back to those questions. But I think it's very interesting. And the second question, why am I not having fun? By being able to get out of your amygdala and your fight or flight and back into your wise brain, you were able to put on like the inner wise coach, that hat on, right? And brought it to your values. You know, it reconnected the brain to the identity. What holds meaning for you. And it makes total sense if you look at it in a way neurologically. So, it's quite interesting, I'll tell you. I'll tell you like that much. And you answered that second question honestly. You know, you weren't really having fun, right? From what I understood, you kind of forgot what, like, the fun part of what you do. So, I know you made a decision to change that. So, walk us through what you actually did.

I mean, the steps themselves were just re-looking at the things that I needed to do. And then how do I infuse myself, my authenticity, my joy, and start enjoying it just a little bit more, right? So an example is I do, I do write posts on LinkedIn, and I do blog posts on my website. I started just having more fun with blog posts and started thinking of like, Okay, how can I bring fun and unique ideas? I know one of the things I was doing was at the time I was reading a book on mental models and I started tying different mental models to team, teamwork and team issues and leadership and communication. And that was, that was a blast. I had fun doing that and it gave me really unique and different content.

Right.

Like, okay, this is an enjoyable way. So now I know that content creation can be enjoyable. It doesn't have to be a slog and usually let's go write about leadership today. Let's go write about like, no, I want to take a fun angle. I'm going to take a book I'm gonna tie it. I'm gonna find some, some analogies or some metaphors and pull it together, and we're gonna come up with something new and something unique and be playful about it. Same type of thing, like with, with different types of outreach. You know, I had many, many clients, maybe past clients I didn't necessarily land a deal with, or someone I stayed in touch with. I started sending them like images of Legos and just saying, hey, right? Instead of like, oh, have you, have you thought about, you know, doing— at the time I was really focused on doing more team building. Have you thought about team building for Q2, Q1, trying to be Mr. Professional Brand. Instead, I might send him a photo of some Legos and a little smiley face Lego guy holding a flag going, hey, any team building plans coming up? Just something like putting a little more playfulness in it, putting a little more fun into it. Because we haven't dug into it yet, but I sell performance based on a method called Lego Serious Play. Literally, we're playing with Legos here.

So I think that it is serious play. It's serious play. Certified facilitator. I'm one of them. I know what you have to do. So total respect, man. But we're gonna get to that. So, so here's— okay. So someone right here is listening, right? We, we also know that you have a podcast. Okay. We did say that at the beginning. We know you do Lego serious play. You're a facilitator. You're a certified coach. Now somebody's probably listening and going, okay, that's really nice, Brandon. It's good for you. He gets to play with Legos and do a podcast and you found fun. But hey, man, I run a 200-person team and I don't have the luxury, quotes, in case you're listening to the audio. I don't have the luxury of fun. Here's the question, right? So, what do you say? What do you say to that person listening right now?

So, okay. Fun is such a loose word, and I know I'm using the word fun in a very, very playful way because I'm tying it to Lego. But fun can also be joyful. It can also mean feeling challenged at the task but enjoying the task, wanting to solve the puzzle. It's not necessarily right. It's not like I figured out how to sell using Legos. I'm not doing that necessarily. Most of the things I still do are very much normal and regular. But what I did is I found fun in the challenge. I found fun in saying, you know what, I'm gonna— this is the type of system that I'm going to use, and I'm going to enjoy figuring out the puzzle and figuring out how to talk about Lego series play, how to talk about, you know, buried signal or insights you're not finding from your team, but do it in a playful way that allows people to understand what I do. That's the So it's not like I'm playing all day, every day. That's not at all what I'm saying.

This is exactly the reason why I asked the question. Yes, because I get it. And, you know, I mean, you're preaching to the choir, but I know the listeners and a lot of people don't understand the power of Lego serious play. And it's, I mean, anybody listening here, I mean, I will be sharing the links here, uh, how you can connect with Brandon. I facilitate the same workshop differently, more on the neuroscience Side, but Legos, just such a wonderful way to do things because it really fires the right brain. So, it puts you in your creativity and it brings us back to our childhood of our vulnerability. So, back to you. So, you rebuilt, right? You've changed your attitude. You've refocused on what was important for you and how to be excited about your job again. You're taking everything you learned about creativity, about unlocking people, I guess, getting people to communicate, collaborate, and doing it for many organizations. I mean, this is obviously a very good workshop, very successful, that opens the conversation and gets people back into their— the brain that helps them thrive and open up, right? So Lego Serious Play, you know, when a CHR or a VP of Operations, let's say, you know, where usually when they hear, well, we're going to be doing a Lego Serious Play workshop, we're going to use Lego bricks. Tell me what happens to their face. And this is not really just me making fun of anybody here, but it's just the reality. And I want to unpack that because I want to break that preconception of play is bad. So, what happens to their face?

I mean, well, it's team building, right? Everyone, it's the immediate thing. And not like we're building high-performing teams. It gets put in that bucket of— I always, I joke about magicians and muffin tasting. Like, that's the bucket it gets put in. Like, oh good, we're gonna play with Legos over lunch. Perfect fun.

That's not at all.

That's nice. No, no, it's not. It's not. And I've— it's actually taken me years. And this has also been part of the journey. Because to be very, very open, when I first started this business, I became a Lego Serious Play facilitator about 6 months before I started my business. And, and I, and quite honestly, I started this going, well, I can sell LEGO to someone, right? Someone will buy LEGO workshops, like, and team building. And before I even really knew what I was doing. And it's true. And it's true. People will pay for that. It's fun. It's playing. Everyone loves LEGOs. It's just, it's universal. But with LEGO serious play, the challenge that comes out is that you have to— it's more about the outcome. And it's about the outcome that you can deliver. And then you can say, and we do this with Lego bricks, right? Because they can't— it almost can't be the lead. Because if you say, oh, we're gonna do— we're gonna use Lego serious play, it's immediately like, okay, cool, you're in this, this bucket again, back with magicians and muffin tastings. And nothing wrong with muffin tasting and magicians, right? We need team connection. That is absolutely important.

Yeah.

But Lego serious play, the way it's built, the way it works, and when handled correctly, can take Months of misalignment and work and break it down in a day or two. And you can get a level of clarity and alignment that is unheard of. But it's surrounded by play. So there's this weird, like, I don't know that I believe that.

It makes sense. It makes, honestly, like, I do want to demystify this. Thank you so much, Brandon, for being so open about this. And I'm glad that we're teaming up on this and talking about it because it's not about what we are doing. You know, it's not about that. It's about what value it adds to you people out there listening. And if you're not open enough to consider something that is going to fire and wire and light up your right brain, where innovation, creativity, collaboration, human connection, and I can go on forever, that part of the brain lighting up because you pull out Lego bricks. And I know you have one very close to you here if you want to show it on the screen. You look at that thing, automatically your brain, seriously, it does something to the brain. So the colors already do something. And now it's just like, you just wanna start playing. And now everything, all the stress, all the pressure, you just put that aside and just open up.

Yeah.

Right away, it just breaks down those walls. And, you know, and I'm just, we're running outta time. So much to talk about, but I don't wanna miss this. So you told me about a session early in your career Before Innate Create existed, right? And I think it's the heart of why you do this work, in my opinion. But hey, a junior team member, right? Someone who never spoke in meetings. And then you put her in a design thinking session and something happened quickly. Run us through that story.

This is what I consider my cornerstone moment. You know, I always prided myself early in my career of being the smart person in the room, having the ideas, being the clever, person. That was part of my identity. And when this happened, I brought design thinking into the operations group at Target. And we weren't even doing a main work. It wasn't really to— it was more to learn from design thinking, to think of the steps of empathy and brainstorming and problem definition. And so it was more just an exercise of like, let's learn. And this, this teammate of mine who was a little junior, again, more a little quiet, just blossomed. The amount of ideas that came out, the amount of excitement. And there was something that just like struck in my heart of like, oh my gosh, like what is holding her back all the time to that? Like this special thing just was like a flower blooming. And it made me think, what about how many other people are stuck like this right now? Or how many other people don't have the permission or the environment or the tools to share the knowledge and the ideas that they have. And don't get me wrong, right? It's not about always having all of the ideas. But, and this is why I named my company Innate Create, is I do believe that every organization has so much more information right at their fingertips, in their people's minds.

Right.

But how do you get at them? How do you find that permission moment? How do you give space? And how can you do that efficiently? And this is why I landed on LEGO Serious Play, because of how efficient it is. But, you know, sometimes I'll still use parts of design thinking. It's about, and it's about pattern disruption. That's the term that I keep, I keep coming back to. It's pattern disruption. We have a normal conversation. To your point, our guards are up, our barriers are up, all these games we're playing in group dynamics of hierarchy dynamics. But suddenly, with the right tools and environment, we have this conversation that's completely different.

And I mean, you basically open up the room, right? When you do these things, you do design thinking or you do Lego, And maybe you mix it up with other stuff. One session literally will change the brain signal. You establish psychological safety instantly. And when it comes to this colleague that we were talking about, she showed up completely differently. You gave her that permission. This is not as simple as a— this is, oh, this is a facilitation success story. It's not. It's literally a neuroscience story. You literally opened up, allowed her to tap into her creativity, into her right brain. And most organizations, unfortunately, are paying the cost of never tapping and never going there. And so, imagine all these people not telling, not tapping into it. And it's a tremendous amount of knowledge. And everybody has that. We're all very talented. There are skills. But are we creating the environment to allow that to shine? We're at the rapid fires. I'm gonna have to run through this. I'm probably gonna have only 2 questions for you. This has been great, by the way. And I just hope I had like another hour with you. But hey, quick answers, quick questions. So, the most underrated leadership skill right now, in your opinion?

Curiosity.

Good one. Biggest myth about creativity in the workplace?

That only certain people are creative. Every single person is creative.

Thank you. Thank you. Last one. If you could go back and tell yourself one thing on the day you pulled out that resume, what would it be?

Go bigger. Go bigger immediately. Take giant swings. Yeah, just go for it. Foot on the pedal.

Oh God. I mean, love it. Thank you so much, Brandon. Quickly here, 2 things before we wrap up. One for your team. One for you personally. You're going to see a QR code. Do yourself a favor. Do the performance and pressure scorecard. It's free. It takes a couple of minutes. And see how that will change things for you. This is a free diagnostic. It will really open up your eyes on what's happening with your team and how pressure-proof are you. And the second one, if you want quick reset scripts that will really align you, open up your right brain, get you in your creativity, download it. It's also free. To subscribe to the NeuroLeadership Edge. Every subscriber helps this show grow, reach bigger audiences, reach further, and bring you the caliber of guests and conversation that actually move the needle. That's the whole point, right? Brandon, thank you so much for joining me. Quickly, where can people find you and learn more about Innate Create?

Absolutely. You can find innatecreate.com, and you can also find me on LinkedIn under Brandon Wettstein. And then also the Herding Squirrels podcast, herdingsquirrels.com.

Everyone, thank you for joining. Lead boldly, stay human, turn every challenge into a gift because it is a gift.