“You Have No Empathy.” Now What? — with Ed Locher

First performance review as a new manager. Ed sits down and hears 4 words that punch through the room. You have no empathy. What he did next changed every team he's led. Welcome to the NeuroLeadership Edge, brain science for bold leaders ready to master their mind and own their voice. I'm your host, Claire Hayek, NeuroLeadership expert and founder of Mind Soul Purpose Team Building. By the end of this episode, you'll have a simple way to build real trust fast. I'm going to give you a 60-second brain reset to switch from asset thinking to human leadership and a plan to get people's best work without fear, threats, or fake deadlines. 2 seconds before we dive in here, I want to mention that on September 10th, I'm hosting a free webinar, Own Your Voice, Master Your Mind. And I'm sharing practical tools to stay clear and steady under pressure. So make sure you save your seat. You can actually have a QR code up here and I will be sharing the link also in the description. Make sure you save your seat. If you can't make it, register, you'll get the replay. So, back into our guest leader, Ed Loker. We're talking about the moment a leader gets called out and how you come back stronger after that. A little bit about Ed. Ed Loker is a seasoned marketing leader who helps PE-backed SaaS companies engineer growth through standout creative AI-powered GTM systems and teams that actually like working together, which is a good thing. He's built marketing functions that drive Serious outcomes from pipeline and retention to valuation uplift without taking himself too seriously. His favorite things include his family, rescuing big dogs, and Charles Dickens, with the notable exception of Bleak House, he said. Hi, Ed.

How's it going? It's going very well. Thank you for having me.

Yes, please. It's such a pleasure having you. And I'm really excited about this episode. You have such a fun story. And I want to dive right in. I think I have an idea or two what you will be telling us and how you'll be answering this question, that pressure-filled moment that fundamentally shaped how you lead today. I think the hint is in the title. But please do tell us a little bit more about that experience.

Yeah, I mean, it's funny you describe it as a fun story because It definitely was not fun in the moment. But it has since become, I think, a little bit of my brand. So I would— this was— I had become a people manager for the first time. And I had— I went into my first annual review with my manager, whose name was Tony. And the first words out of his mouth were, Ed, you are aware that you have no empathy. And because of who I am, my response was a little bit snarky on that. I did not. But in my defense, someone with no empathy would not know. that they had no empathy. And he kind of chuckled. And then we got serious about what it means to be a leader for your team. And that's a very— it can be a very different conversation than what it means to be a leader for your company. And those things are not mutually exclusive. And in fact, they're very complementary. But you certainly cannot over-rotate against one versus the other. I mean, this has to be managed holistically. And so, as a young leader, we all start somewhere. And it is to this date the most valuable piece of feedback I've ever received in a review. Thankfully, I was, I was old enough not to still believe that I knew everything, but I was still young enough that I could be convinced that I needed to change. So the timing of the feedback was very good, as well as the quality and the insight that Tony was able to share with me. So it was Again, it was a bit of a shock, but certainly something that has been top of mind literally on a daily basis for the rest of my career.

I bet. And so what do you think was happening in your mind, in your head? This is a NeuroLeadership podcast. And I'm just curious. I mean, if you can take us back to the moment when he said that, was it— when you say shock, I mean, were you just completely speechless? Were you, were you angry? Were you frustrated? Were you more like, I gotta stop and thinking, think about this? If you, I know it, it wasn't yesterday. Would you remember like the emotion that, that kind of, yeah, that came right after that?

Yeah, I do. I mean, and, and again, I, I think, I think about this all the time. Um, you do? Okay. The, the emotion that I was feeling in the moment was sort of a mix of everything that you just said. And, and it sort of goes back to what I said about being old enough to recognize that I didn't know everything and young enough that I could still be taught something. But there was a little bit of shock because what I thought I was doing was correct. My job as a leader in the organization was to extract every last piece of efficiency from the team, regardless of the personal cost. Right? And so I thought I was doing a good thing. And so when he shared that insight with me, and it sort of, it was shocking, angry a little bit, just because, you know, nobody likes to be told that they're doing it wrong.

No.

But more than anything, I sort of— this is going to paint myself to be probably in a brighter picture than I actually truly am. But I was kind of grateful in the moment in that, you know, this is— we've all been through reviews, annual reviews. And largely for— and again, without trying not to be arrogant, as a high performer, largely my reviews were very positive.

Right.

And then, you know, getting that first management review, I had no reason to expect anything would be different. gotten good reviews. I was expecting this one to be the same. And then to start with that, it was, it was a bit shocking. But again, gratitude. And again, that's built over time because I recognize the value of it in the moment. But again, it is top of mind all the time, that feeling of, oh, what do you mean? I am quite surprised that you said that to me. Yeah.

And you know, I think I do want to point out one word you, you, you use is gratitude. I think that that has a lot of wisdom and I think In moments like these, of course, the brain is not probably right in your prefrontal cortex. Probably went to the amygdala where the emotions are firing and the frustration or the anger or whatever it is. You know, it's like a surge of emotions happening. So you're not really thinking straight or you're trying to gather your thoughts. You're trying to make sense of things. And gratitude is definitely that. That is a very good sign of positive intelligence, of emotional intelligence, of being able to live Lift yourself up and find the gift and say, "Okay, this is a gift here, and somebody's trying to tell me something. I know I'm disappointed, and it's fine. But how do I move on from here?" So it's like you're you're you're coping in a way, but in a positive way. And one little tip that I want to I did mention that I want to share is second brain reset. When you feel that pressure spike, when you feel like the surge of emotions, and then it's hard kind of to be empathetic, or it's hard to be. Analytical at that point. One thing that really helps bring you back into prefrontal cortex, which is your CEO, your brain CEO, and make the right decisions and be more in control and clear-minded, clear-headed, right? So it's to just—you can name one feeling. I'm feeling frustrated right now. Just name it, label it, and just kind of calms everything down. Now you're not in your emotions. The minute you label it, it's like you see what's happening. It's mindfulness. I'm observing myself. Okay, I'm frustrated. I'm a bit disappointed. Label those emotions, and it. It just opens your perspective. It's like, okay, it's not so bad. It doesn't like blow up out of proportion. And the other thing, very easy, and it's something you can do quietly. I mean, you're in front of that person, just take one long exhale. And I think people, when you are in that situation, probably your boss at the time would have expected you maybe to do like a— that would be a total normal reaction. So, don't be afraid if you're in that situation like that to take a 6 to 8-second long exhale before you speak. And what that does, it just like gives you that quiet moment and puts you back into your prefrontal cortex so you can lead and gather your thoughts better and you're not scattered. So—

Yeah, I could have used that advice back then.

Yes, you could have totally used it. And you know, Ed, I find it Quite often when I speak to leaders and clients and give them those tips, they're like, yeah, I do that. And I didn't know why. It's instinctive and we're built that way. The brain is so, so powerful and so smart. But when you consciously know what to do, you take it out of your toolbox and do it. It's much easier, more effective. You're quick. You're not swimming and bathing in all kinds of emotions before you realize you're in them and then stop and then breathe and hand. Because now your brain was going, okay, it's enough. Like, let's get back to logic here. But when you know and you practice that, that just is much quicker and you lose less energy. You're more in control. You're more grounded that way. And you know what to do. You're the one commanding what's happening in your body and not your brain running you in a way.

True.

So, let's move on to the next thing. I am curious to know what leadership lesson or mindset shift changed in how you show up as a leader throughout your career? What did you have to change? What kind of mindset shift, whether it's from that moment on or later in your career?

Yeah, no, it was from that moment for sure. And the gift that Tony gave me was the acknowledgment that being empathetic is not my low-energy state. I don't naturally live in that area where I'm thinking about the impact on people or what they might be going through or things like that. I'm very logical. I'm very focused on the here and now, the tactical, even the strategic and sort of the business side of it. And it is, it was again, the best piece of advice I ever gave because I literally have to be very conscious on a daily basis to remind myself that people are people first. And that has been a game changer for me. And I believe in my deepest heart of hearts that I have become a better leader and my teams have accomplished way more by treating them as people first and trying to be what they need in the moment as opposed to what I need in the moment. And so we have deadlines. I, there's always something that, there's always more work. There's always something that could have been done yesterday.

Right.

And probably a realization that I had as well, which is being in marketing in technology, we're not brain surgeons. Nobody dies on the table if we get it wrong. The mistakes that we're dealing with are not life and death. And so when, you know, if somebody is going through something on a personal level, or if someone has very ambitious aspirations from a career perspective and Being what you need for that person in that moment, because that, that same person can be two very different, in two very different positions in the span of a few hours, a few days, a few weeks. And being attuned to that and being what they need in the moment is not something that comes naturally to me. And so I have to continually bring this to the front of my mind and ask myself internally, you know, what do they need from me right now? Like, what's going on? So that, that was a fundamental shift that probably changed my career trajectory pretty dramatically.

Yeah. Okay. Then let's, let me ask you this then. Can you share maybe a time where you coached 2 people differently on the same problem and why it worked? Yeah.

So 2 people. So I've promoted a lot of people throughout my career and promoting people into their first management position has been one of my greatest joys. I love bringing that, bringing people forward and developing them and giving them opportunity. I can think of one woman that I was so proud of. She was such a, she was such a high performer, wonderful individual contributor. She was a terrible first-line manager for like a year, year and a half, because she was unable to allow her team to do it the way that they felt they could do it best.

OK.

It had to be done her way. And so she, because she was such a high performer, she knew how it should, how it should be done. And so she would either redo the work or be very prescriptive in how the work was to be done. And in skip-level reviews and 360s, plenty of feedback around this woman and her inability to be an effective leader.

Right.

I never would have imagined that because she was such a fantastic high performer. So teaching her that allowing people, giving people the space, giving people the opportunity to do what they think is the right thing to do, and then coaching them. paint a vision for them and let them do it. Where another person was too much like that. He's like, you guys do whatever you want.

Interesting.

And he was also a high performer, but his mental state was that I don't want to be a micromanager. I don't want to be a dictator. And so he rotated in the other direction where he was like, yeah, you guys, you know, do what you want. And what he wasn't doing, which is no knock on him because it's very difficult to do this as a first-line manager. He wasn't really creating a solid vision of what the goal was, where the team was supposed to go. And so without either of those things, which is, here's where we're going, or here's what I want you guys to do with some level of structure, team went nowhere. And so being an effective leader for both of those people required the exact opposite approach.

Yeah.

And again, that lesson on empathy allowed me to be able to make those transitions. And both of them very quickly, because they were high performers and they were ambitious, adopted that the inside and became wonderful managers in their own right. The woman is now a CMO, has been a CMO for a while. And the man is a VP. So yeah, they're doing it. They're doing it. Yeah.

That's amazing. Well, that's, that's pretty nice. I mean, I love the whole opposite.

Yeah. Diametrically opposed.

Like, yeah, basically it was the two sides of the spectrum here. Very interesting, actually. Very, very interesting example. How about, you know, I'm really, really curious to know, what do you wish? I mean, there's a lot going on right now. There's a lot of disruption with AI. There's a lot of changes happening at the workplace. You know, actually hasn't stopped since COVID really. I think this has been a roller coaster. I don't know what's next, you know, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's another thing that shows up. And again, I don't want to sound negative here. It's just change. It's life. But just a bit too intense nowadays. What do you wish more leaders understood when they're leading through what's happening right now? Complexity, change, disruption.

Again, at the risk of sounding airy, I wish more leaders would try to be empathetic.

A bit more, yeah.

People of my age, we, we saw the internet transformation.

Yeah.

Now we're in the middle of AI things. So that's 2 really big shifts within the span of one career. And maybe that's cool. Maybe that's horrific. Like maybe it's somewhere in between. But I really do think that this one with AI, there is that. And I've thought a lot about this. The machine can do a lot.

Yeah.

Machine can do a lot that we used to rely on entry-level employees to do. And what the machine is not is human.

Yeah.

And the machine doesn't make you a more productive human. It makes you a more productive worker, but it does not make you a more productive human. And so where I think that the successful leaders of tomorrow are going to be the ones that remember It's the humanity in us that is the secret sauce. I'm a huge movie guy, and most of the movies that I've seen with AI don't particularly end well for humans. And so I don't know that relying on the machine to provide that level of empathy is actually going to come to fruition at any point or maybe anytime soon.

I don't see it.

I don't either.

Yeah.

And so for us to remember as leaders that as we're struggling with AI, I struggle with AI all the time. Where, how, what should we do? There's a level of trepidation and fear and anger that everybody's dealing with, including myself. And the pressure that I'm putting on the team to incorporate this new technology, these new workflows, is compounded because now they're getting that from me too. Right.

Right.

And so if leaders aren't really focused on reassurance, education, being the person that your team needs, I see a real potential for— I don't want to say a collapse, but the generation that's following us already has a very different definition of what work means. And so if we as leaders are now just pushing down a machine without thinking of them as human beings. I honestly, I don't know what the outcome of that would be.

I think it would be disastrous. I'll call it out right now. I think we need more humanity, more empathy more than ever now in the age of AI. And I think it's wonderful. I think if we use AI for good, if we use AI to make our life more productive, but not losing the human side of things, I think leaders have a huge responsibility when it comes to adopting AI and how it's adopted and still actively listening to concerns even though deep down inside, they know they're not going to let this person go because an AI will not replace them. Still listen to the concerns. Sometimes, the person needs just for you to listen.

Yeah.

Recognize and not preach or coach or anything like that. And I think It's only normal because the brain— this is a new thing and the brain is not used to it. There's no neural pathways incorporating AI yet in all of us. I mean, it's starting to really start making its path in our brain and our day-to-day. And this will become normal in— I don't know. Looking back, we're probably like, oh my God, that wasn't a big deal. It's like the ATMs back when there was no ATMs and you just went to a teller at a bank.

Right.

But we're not there yet. And it's the way that the brain is coping. It's bringing down the uncertainty and talking about it really helps. And listening and being empathetic really helps kind of bring down the cortisol level, the stress, and just does that. And it's easy. And all we have to do is listen and be empathetic about it. And yes, we could bring solutions and say, yes, and I can reassure you and you can do that. But sometimes listening goes a long way. It goes a long way. So anyway, as far as I'm concerned, it's hard. And it's one of the things that a lot of leaders struggle with, active listening.

Agreed.

Type A personalities, I can speak for myself. I have to consciously practice that in even my mental fitness routine and mindfulness. I'm always going like, okay, just, I know you want to interrupt. Just listen. Breathe, breathe, breathe. I know you think you want to say no. Just stop. Quiet, quiet. I have to like Everything in my being wants to say something and cut somebody off. It's just like I'm so excited and passionate about what I want to say and what they're talking about. But sometimes, the best thing we could do is just listen.

100%.

Yep.

Yeah.

And don't want to repeat myself here. But if you're just listening now, I want to just put up a QR code. We have a webinar coming up. It's a free webinar, an hour, September 10th, 1 PM EST on Owning Your Voice, Mastering Your Mind. I'll be sharing tips, mental fitness tips. And explaining what does own your voice means and what does master your mind means. But in a nutshell, we're going to practice fast resets that make tough conversations easier. I'm going to share tools that really put you in your best performing, best showing up status, and where you stop playing small and really take up space and pretty much play at your full potential. So, please do sign up. Scan the code. If you can't make it, don't worry about it. You'll get the replay. And this is so exciting. It's been very interesting. If you don't mind, can you share like a weekly ritual you use to keep empathy high, especially when there's a high-pressure deadline or a quarter-end squeeze or anything like that? What would you do or usually do?

Yeah, I don't know that I've ever codified it. I've had the benefit of 3 tremendous first-line managers that have since gone on and done wonderful things and are great people in their own right. So I often find— and Tony is one of those. And so I often find myself saying, what would Tony do?

Ah.

You know, once a week. And I said at the beginning, and I wasn't lying, I think about that empathy comment almost daily. Like in the morning, it's just, at this point, I guess it is a routine, although I've never written it down and said, OK, I want you to go through these things.

Right, yeah.

It was like, just remember, people are people.

Yeah. And you know what? This is so interesting, Ed, because sometimes, I mean, probably Tony didn't realize that this will have such an effect on you and change the course of your career, your life, and who you are being as a leader. And it's something that I think about often that when we hold back, when we're not owning our voice, when we're really not stepping into our power, And taking up space, we're holding back. And on maybe things that would really make a difference and have this amazing effect, the snowball effect on somebody's life. You don't know what that's going to do. And of course, make it positive. This is what we're talking about. But look at that. You're the perfect example of this. And you keep bringing back the whole what happened in that review with Tony. And I'm so curious to meet Tony. But that's a whole conversation. Tony, if you're listening, You're a legend, man. Yeah. Let's move on to the rapid-fire Bold Truths.

Sure.

I just need like quick, snappy answers. 30 seconds. Let's not overthink it. Ready?

Yeah.

All right. Biggest myth in leadership?

That you have to know everything.

All right. A time you changed your mind about a person and it made the team better?

When I realized that they were going through some fairly significant personal issues and gave them the benefit of the doubt.

Very good one. A book or podcast that rewired your leadership?

Yeah, I don't know that it— it's not exactly in the sweet spot of leadership, but Simon Sinek's Start with Why. And I know he's taken some recent fire about maybe it isn't exactly what people thought it was. But I still think that core question of start with why is absolutely critical from a leadership perspective, from a company perspective, from a personal relationship perspective. If you understand why you are doing what you're doing or if you have enough empathy to understand why someone else is doing what they're doing, you're in a much better position than you are if you're just bulldozing your way through your life.

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And we're on to our listener challenge. You all know that I always have a challenge for you if you're listening. Maybe before your next tough meeting, try this 3-minute reset. 60 seconds quiet. You can just focus on your breathing and basically just focus on writing one line. What kind of outcome matters most for the people in the room? Not to you, the people in the room before you step into the meeting. Set that intention. And when you walk in the room, You can just simply open up with what's on your mind today and just listen, actively listen for 60 seconds as each person actually shares that with you. Try it and let us know what shifted. And maybe you could tag me and tag Ed and #LeadWithEmpathy. I think it would be a really nice challenge to try and see how that works for you. And As always, if today's conversation really hit, it helped you in any way, please do follow and subscribe to the NeuroLeadership Edge podcast. And as you already know, I do have a newsletter under LinkedIn. So, don't hesitate to read that one. There are very interesting blogs about where I dive really deeper. In the podcast, it's pretty short. So, I can go a bit deeper in the blog. And of course, don't forget last time I remind you, I might remind you another episode. So, I'm not gonna lie. September 10th. I'm really excited about this one. I worked really hard putting this live webinar together. It's free. It's 1 hour. I want to add tremendous value because a lot of people have been reaching out and asking, yeah, but like, how? How?

How?

You talk about mental fitness. Give me tools. And I have shared a lot of tools. But I think I want to focus that hour on that. And I always invite people. And of course, you're invited. Invite your team. There's no limit on how many people can join. Been inviting a lot of my clients and people I know to the webinar to bring their kids because I'm going to really be talking about the inner critic and how that affects what's going on through our head and how we judge ourselves, how we judge others. And I think it really is something that young people, young students, young professionals struggle with. I think they live in a whole different kind of era with social media and the expectations It's definitely not what it was back in my days anyway. And probably you can relate to that as well, Ed.

Indeed. Yeah.

So if that helps your kids, obviously, you know, we're talking about students, young professionals, please bring them along. Then I think this would even have more impact at this point. And of course, I do not want to forget to mention that Ed Loker is an author and he published a book. I think it was 2023, if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah, during COVID During COVID right?

It's called Holistic Marketing: Digital Transformation Through People, Processes, and Technology. And I will be sharing the link for you to download. Basically, go get it on Kindle, I think, and it's paperback as well. So, please do look through the description and look out for that link. I'm sure it's extremely interesting. Ed, it's been a pleasure to have you.

Thank you.

Ed is joining us from his hotel room. He's on the road in Toronto and he joined anyway. So, I do really appreciate you taking the time, Ed.

No, it was a pleasure. A great time, great conversation. And my mom would love it if you bought a copy of the book.

Yes, absolutely right. So look, everyone, thanks for joining again. Lead boldly, stay human, and turn every challenge into a gift because it is a gift. See you next time.

All right.

Bye everyone!