S6E34 - Jack Frimston - Dialing for Dollars Better with Sales Therapy

What's up, everybody? Welcome to another episode of the Surf and Sales podcast. I am Scott Lease, one of the two co hosts of the Surf and Sales podcast, along with my good friend and partner, Richard Harris. And we are the co founders of the Surf and Sales Summit. Check us out@surfandsales.com if you're looking for an alternative to big, boring sales conferences. Although you're going to have to catch us in 2026 because 2025 is sold out. We will be in Portugal in less than a month, Richard.

I know.

Are you excited?

I started doing my seven push ups yesterday, so you'll be ready.

Have you ever been to Portugal, Richard?

No. It's on the list.

First time. Okay.

Yeah. So I'm excited for it and you know, I think it's going to be on the bucket list for the family too. As you know, we love to take the boys to surf places, so I think it's going to be there too.

Yeah. Well, it's good that you'll go there first and make sure it's safe. Safe.

And that's what I've been told.

Return, then you'll take family.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, all right, Richard, tell everybody who is helping us get this show.

Yeah, yeah. Our good friends over at Vasco, we really appreciate what they're doing to support the podcast as well as support the event itself. If you know what it's like to be there on a Monday morning and you're dragging your feet into the B weekly business review, you're missing the number. And you want to blame marketing for leads, which we all do. And marketing pushes back and customer success shrugs like Revops is trying to put all this together. And that's what Vesco does. They really sort of cut through the noise, pull your data from the CRM and billing systems to help you figure out your revenue forecast. And it even has a little bit of AI to help you with some day to day execution based on that, which is I love because I hate. I spend so much time crunching numbers, Scott, that I'm exhausted to try and figure out what to do after I crunch them in Excel. Right.

Well, I'll tell you that our guest today is a guy named Jack Frimson from Manchester, uk and he's all about crushing numbers and beating numbers and getting numbers and getting meetings and all that kind of stuff. He's the director over at. We have a meeting and he's also the author of Sales is Therapy, which is a new book that he just released fairly recently, I believe. Welcome to the Show Jack.

Thank you for having me to see you. Gentlemen. How are we?

We're doing.

We're good.

How is the vibe these days in Manchester?

Wet. You could probably. I mean, looking out the weather in Manchester today, you could probably use a surfboard. So you guys are. You'd be. You'd be great. You'd love.

Fit Right in.

Right.

Fit right in.

I. I think Scott was trying to load you up with a. A question about football, about Manchester. I think that's really.

I might. I might. I might have. I might be trying to take advantage of his post where he, you know, he took a little dig at United, so I thought I would go there.

A little bit weird. I'm. I live in Manchester, but I've got the most cockney accent you've ever heard for somebody that claims to be a northerner. So I grew up in the south of England, so when it comes to football, I'm a bit. I don't really get what's going on. It's not like your football, is it, where you're, like, battering people and throwing it. It's like soccer. So it's. I like table tennis. You know table tennis? You guys play that?

Yeah, of course. Of course.

That's. Very good at it.

Yeah. I might be pretty. Pretty good. Pretty good.

Scott, explain. Explain your genetic effectiveness of tennis. What's it. I can't remember.

Effectiveness. I have what is affectionately known as an APE index, which means my wingspan is bigger than how tall I am. So I'm 6 foot 2, but my wingspan is much larger than that. So what Richard's getting at is I can cover the table tennis table very well without having to move too much, which.

Yeah, he just stands there.

Frustrating.

A little bit. Yes. But he just stands in the middle and he can.

Richard's running around sweating, and I'm just standing there, you know, drinking my tequila and hanging out.

Yeah.

Do you know what. What percentage of the world that puts you in? Is it like a small.

I don't know. I don't know.

That's a good question.

It is a good question, man. Jack, tell everybody about. We have a meeting and what you guys do and what it's all about.

So we have a meeting is a sales agency, and we become an extension of people's sales team. So people that are struggling to get in front of more people, maybe the right types of people. People, or they're breaking into a new sector. As we know in 2025, Outbound is getting harder and harder, and if you are struggling with that Type of funnel, which a lot of companies are. We are an agency that gets called in to help them with that type of funnel using predominantly the phone. Although cold calling's dead, apparently people have been saying it on LinkedIn. I saw it twice this morning. But we use the phone day in, day out to prove that it's not.

Now one question I have specifically about this is geographic differences. So I have clients all over, all over the world. I would assume that you probably do as well. Can you talk a little bit about the experience you have? Like what part of the world would you say the phone is like smashing still? There really hasn't been much of a sort of degradation of performance compared to other parts of the world that you've seen a, you know, a fairly noticeable dip and you've had to adjust. Can you talk to that a little bit?

Yeah, we've, we've done a variety of different campaigns and I think that you've also got to like take into nuance of like, cultural stuff. If you, if you have a UK agency calling into Poland where it's predominantly Polish speaking people, is it that the phone is dead or it's not a successful tool there, or is it just that culturally there's a difference between somebody from the uk, we, we, we do consultancy with a company that are all over the world and we train their team and we know that the phone is working in Turkey, the Middle East, Spain. So I think the phone still works. Definitely the, the most knowledge I have is probably like comparison from UK to usa and it's not, the phone doesn't work. I think if it's getting a lot tougher to get conversations from, from what I know about the us, it's a lot more dials, connection rate, spam bots, all of that stuff. But I think in the uk, people are a little bit more likely to pick up the phone whether they're responsive or not. That depends on how you.

Yeah, I was just thinking, as you were saying about Turkey or Poland or whatever, but like the first gate, if you will, to get through is somebody actually has to pick up the phone.

Hmm.

And so what, what it sounds like you're saying is like, yeah, people still pick up the phone to see who's on the other end. In, in some of these places, what you do after that obviously determines the success level. But I think in some places in the US at least, nobody even picks up the phone. It feels like. Right, so, yeah, so it is. What do you think is responsible for that difference of people picking up the Phone over there. And should companies then tailor some of their outreach that direction? Feels like. It feels like I would if I was based in, in Europe somewhere, I had a sort of European centric product. I'd be directing my, my early efforts towards places that actually answer the phone.

Yeah, I think I don't want to talk on it too much because I don't know if, like, if I've got enough of a sample size. But from my experience, when it comes to, I think the, the old school mentality, if you think about like cold calling is 30 to 60 dials a day is probably enough to get what you need. Actually now we're seeing that in the UK you probably have 10 to 30% connection rates and then 50 of those will go through to conversations and then.

Yeah, exactly.

That's great.

Doing your. If you're doing. That's. That's in the UK, America is 5 to 10 connection rate. So if you're doing your 60 dials a day, you're getting three people picking up the phone. Now if you're trying to book an average of one meeting a day to generate pipeline, that's not enough like that.

No. I mean you almost have to bat one for one. Your one conversation you have to turn into a meeting. It's like.

Yeah, so it's, it's so you need to up the ante. And that is where all of these tools are coming in from. Data enrichment, dialers and stuff like that. Are dialers and data problem. Are they creating another problem? Possibly. But I think in America you guys can probably comment on this more. But Richard, you could just get somebody call you tomorrow and say, I want to buy your house in the UK, that's not flying. Like we are very GDPR B2B. But like you're getting calls like, it's a bit of a wild west out there from what I've heard and what I've experienced. Is that true?

I would say that it's a wild west of fake phone number. Fake phone calls coming through right now. Like, it's ridiculous. Like literally just a minute ago I had two. One was from a guy, one was from Minnesota. Meanwhile, I just spoken to a guy from Minnesota about something, so I was like, oh, is he calling back? But it was a different number and then the other was like a WhatsApp number. Right? And it's just I'm in that world where, you know, I. Because I have my own business, right? Like I pick up every call, right? Like I really do. Because you never know.

But then, you know There, there's so many spam calls, hang up calls. They're just testing to see if this is a real number, live number. So you know, it's, it's a double edged sword. So that's what the wild west is right now. I still get the occasional call from an actual rep and I take those calls because I like to hear what they're doing and then they turn them, I turn them into a lead but it's harder to get through it. And you know, Apple just yesterday announced their new piece where unknown numbers that are not saved in your phone, people are going to have to send a voice message first for you to read before you accept the call. Right. And that's been around with Google for a while. So I am curious to see how that affects things.

So it's, it's just a different game at the moment. So it, and it's shifting consistently. I don't think phone is dead though. I agree with you. Like you've got to do it, you're going to have to get smarter and it's going to get harder if you have a small tam. Right. Because you do need that dialer to do stuff. But if you've only got 20,000 potential customers, you know, you can run through that in a dialer in a month, if not sooner. So, so it's just going to be an interesting part of the game for sure.

So I have a question for you.

And we, we talked to somebody the other day, we talked to a guy from Israel about it, right. So many companies in, you know, outside America want to break into the US Market, Right. Versus the US market trying to expand elsewhere. What are the differences you see going in each direction? Right. Is one harder, easier, you know, and I know it's anecdotal, right. Like I'm, I don't, you know, maybe you've done some data analysis, I don't know. But I'm just, I'm always curious to hear about the international approach to breaking into the US or vice versa if you know what it's going to take differently from if you're in the US and you want to break into the, to other parts of the world.

It's probably easier for me to comment on UK into the US because that, that's definitely part of our plan for expansion at a point. I think the big thing that I've noticed is commercially like although there is a currency difference but like I think higher prices in the US don't get they nobody bats an eyelid. I think people understand that bigger Budgets expect bigger results. I don't know if it is a British culture that actually everybody's a little bit tighter and less willing to spend money, but I think that in America it feels like, oh, if you spend good money you would get that. So I know that from, from some companies that we've worked with, the prices are completely different when they're selling into the UK to the USA and it's, it's skyrocketed and they've never had any problems with that. I think. Yeah, the other.

Sorry, go ahead. No, go ahead, Jack.

I was going to say. And then the, the other feeling is probably like breaking into each state. It feels like if you were comparing Manchester and London, maybe a little bit of a cultural difference when it comes to football and weather, but actually probably not so much in terms of human behavior. We were speaking to somebody earlier today on the podcast and they were saying like the, the cultural difference between somebody from Boston compared to Georgia in, in terms of like selling is completely different. And actually what you do from one, one state to another wouldn't fly. So I think it's a case of, yeah, like knowing culturally what you're selling into as well.

Do you think that people in the EU just, are just, you know, in the UK just from your perspective.

Believe it's easier to get into the US or harder to get into the us.

Not even commercially wise. Just like, oh my God, we're going to go after the US market and their US market's so big and like, do they just have these rose colored glasses that you know, may or may not be true? I don't know. Maybe it is.

Yeah, I think, I mean, I can only speak from my own personal experience and bias, but if I say like breaking into America, there is, there is definitely some rose tinted glasses and like, like romancing of the American dream. To think that's where actually so much happens. And the, you've got New York and LA and all these wonderful places. So like, yeah, I definitely think there's a. If you can make it, I mean it's lyrics to a song. If you can make it there, then you can make it anywhere. So like what better than B2B sales? Like, I think that's one of the things. If you can make, put your, if you can put your stamp on the map in the usa, then you're probably going to have success worldwide.

But I agree with that. I just wonder. So you come in with that, you know, desire and goal and then do people just get slapped in the face and go, oh, wow, that was not as easy as I thought. And then if so, what. What are they realizing? Aside from the. The geographic stuff? What are they realizing makes it harder than they expected?

I don't know if it is the geo. I don't necessarily know if it's the geographic stuff or if it's just a case of people think things are going to be easier and they get slapped in the face anyway. Like, when it comes to anything sales, like you guys have been working sales for many years, you've probably been slapped in the face multiple times. I think everybody would romanticize the idea of breaking into America. We're going to do this and actually probably not be consistent enough or do the work that's required to actually get to where. Okay, so people have tried to break into America. How long have you tried for? Three months, six months, a year? Well, how long does something good actually take to happen? Have you tried five years, a decade? Like, do 10 years of trying to break into America and come back and say it doesn't work? But I imagine the case studies, I don't have any evidence of it, but would probably be like, yeah, we tried that. Okay, what did you try? We called 500 people and they all told us they weren't interested. That's probably what's happening.

Yeah, there's a lot of. There's a lot of that could 500 calls or five days worth of effort or, you know, something like that. And then they throw in the. In the towel for sure. There's a few terms that I noticed that you hate. I'm not. I'll leave. I'll leave the one that we were talking about in the green room alone. But, but you wrote something about how you hate the term closer. Can you, can you talk a little bit more about that? And whether that was comedy or whether you're serious about that.

I think it. I. I think if you call yourself a closer, I think there's probably some irony to it. Like if we think about probably the greatest sales film of all time, and I say greatest because of its accolades and not necessarily what it's done for the sales profession, but the Wolf of Wall street is a brilliant film. I love the film, but actually what it portrays of the sales industry has definitely been true and is definitely true, but it doesn't necessarily teach you how to sell. And Jordan Belfort has made lots and lots of money. But there is a. There's a fine line between manipulation and persuasion, isn't there? And that is the intent. So if you go around and I'm seeing this all the time now on Instagram and Tick Tock. We've had people, we've had people work for us and apply for jobs with us that are high ticket closers. And for me and our school of thought when it comes to selling is, sales is therapy. And actually it's more about how do I get people to open up and how do I treat people like human beings and how do I be interested instead of just being interesting. I think that if you're going in with the, the mindset of I'm going to close, I'm a closer. Well, you're going in with the wrong mindset of it's not about them. How do you give a shit of if you're, if your mindset is, I'm going into this to see if I can help. I'm going into this to problem solve. I'm going in to have an open conversation. You're not a closer. If you're going in there to close deals and make money, you might be highly successful, you might be rich, but I don't think that that's what sales is. Doesn't mean it doesn't work.

I love that. I love the focus on the, the mindset part. The irony or the funny part to me though is you end almost every post with remember you will die. In fact, you even say, you know, the mindset is everything. Remember you will die. What you tell yourself is powerful. Remember you will die. How are you juxtaposing, juxtaposing those two things against each other? Because I, I, I sense, it's not hard to sense, but like there's so much sarcasm and snark in, in your, in your posts and your commentary, which is like kind of, you know, come on man, stop taking yourself so seriously. This stuff is not such a big deal or whatever. Right. But then in the same post of sorts, you're also saying something really, really important for people to pay attention to, which is like, you have to have the right mindset here in order to achieve the right outcome. Not just for you, but for your clients and your buyers and everything. So there's an interesting ying and the yang effect that I get from reading your commentary and you're posting on LinkedIn, which.

Must be hitting the bullseye because you've done a great job of building, you know, a brand and a following. You have a huge network on, on LinkedIn. So can you, can you talk about that thought process and that strategy of yours?

Yeah, I think less so strategy like, like with anything most people like Fall. Fall into it accidentally. And I'm, I'm a. If you think about the east and the west at the same similar sort of times, Buddhism and Stoicism were coming into play. And the Stoics and the Buddhists, they had a different phrase for it, but the Stoics used to whisper memento moray on the battlefield, which is, remember that you must die. Okay. And. And that phrase, I, I think. I think of, like, your mind as a. As a wallpaper. You know, like the Windows 98, you've got that lovely field. And I think, like, what. What is your wallpaper that you go back to? Or maybe like, what is a mantra? Like, what are the quotes in life? Like, it's great reading all these beautiful quotes in life, but if you do nothing with them, then it's pointless. So, like, what is going to be the wallpaper to your mind? For me, one of those mantras is, remember you will die. So I think about it every single day when I post. I think about it all the time. I've got a watch that says, remember you die. I've got a book behind me. I've got Marcus Aurelius. I've got, like, coins. I've got all this. Remember you would I. Memorabilia someone.

Yeah.

Somewhere. But it's just. I didn't know that, actually.

I didn't know that. You know, battlefield soldier angle. Yeah. Changes my vantage point and view now of how I read the content. So that's, that's, It's. It's very interesting to me now that.

What is your. What is your wallpaper? I love that phrase. Like, what is.

I don't know. I need.

I was thinking the same thing. I'm trying to figure it out. And I think the. It's interesting. I really like this approach too, because it does bring that humanity back into the. Into the process, which is, if I think about all my little catchphrases, they're of business and sales related. Right. And that's not what you're talking about. You're talking about what is. What is Richard's authentic wallpaper? What is Jack's authentic wallpaper? So I got to figure out my new wallpaper. So I, I think that was. I. I really appreciate you sharing that and I was, I was curious, Scott, if you know what yours.

No, I. I gotta have to dwell on it and think about it a little bit, you know?

Yeah.

Maybe I can look through some of Jack's, like, old lyrics and see if there's something in there. I don't know if you Know this Richard, but he was in a band I think called the Tailor Made, which is like.

Indie pop band from the, from the uk. He's got pictures of himself, you know, on a fairly big stage and all this. So I'm going to scroll through the lyrics is what I'm going to do. I'm going to try to find some wallpaper to put, to put up on there. That's what I'll do.

And fun fact, Scott Lease was also in a band.

Yeah, that's like, you know, that's, that's like saying.

Yeah, that's like comparing Messi versus, you know, a four year old toddler on the field. For the first time this guy actually knew what he was doing.

Right.

Guitarist with the, the Wingspan.

Yeah.

Yes.

I actually was a. I actually played bass. I actually played.

Oh, I didn't even know that. I thought you would have been in the guitars too.

No, no, I ended up teaching myself guitar later on, but I was shite at it. But I, I was okay at the, at the base though.

I, I was waiting now because as soon as Jack said that with the long arms, I'm like thinking about a Pete Townsend, you know, you know, spin on the, on the guitar or just running your big long arms till they drag your knuckles on the floor as you strum the guitar.

But it's not that bad. Not that bad.

But I, but I, I digress. I digress. So Jack, I'm curious like, because I've, you know, Scott knows me really well of. And I think people have heard me talk about stuff is I'm, I'm very big on therapy. I'm very big on mental health. And I love the title of your book. Right. You know, talk a little bit more about the theme of that from a sales perspective. Right. This, you know, sales is therapy kind of point of view. Like what does that really mean to you and how'd you even come up with it?

So I have to give homage to my best friend and business parter of 18 years. 18 years a friend, four years of business partner. The ideology, like the, the idea came from. So the Samaritan. Are you familiar with the Samaritans? Do you have the Samaritans in the US So the Samaritans are like a helpline for people that are feeling suicidal. So you, you probably.

We do have, we have a hotline.

I don't know that or not.

Yeah. So we just have a suicide hotline that's national. Yeah.

Okay. So the Samaritans have a rule that if Somebody calls up to talk to you, you can't talk about yourself. So if I said, my wife left me, she's taking the kids, I couldn't. If I was the, the guy, the Samaritan, I couldn't say, oh, my wife left me, blah, blah. You can't talk about yourself. So we think about this, like, therapeutic approach to how can it not be about you? Because I don't know if any of you guys have been through therapy and you don't have to open up, but if you walk into a therapist's office, they don't say, sit down. And they don't pull out a cred deck and they don't say they've got three packages, bronze, silver, and gold. And they don't start telling you about where they went to school and why they're good and what their accreditations are and how many. Five star.

There's no logo salad?

No, there's no logo salad. They say, why are you here? What are you trying to achieve? What is the problem? And we found that the best sales techniques don't come from Grant Cardone and Jordan Belfort, but they come from therapists who use CBT techniques. Guess where the therapist stole it from? Socrates. So it's been around for thousands of years anyway, all these amazing techniques of how do I not convince you, but get you to convince yourself? So we've looked at that. We've built a cold calling framework that is based on Alcoholics Anonymous, and we've sold in all of these techniques and we found that actually it works so much better than trying to be a hard closer.

I love it. That's really, really amazing. I, I appreciate that on multiple levels. Yes, I've done a lot of therapy and yes, even, you know, I talk about some of the psychology stuff in the way I train, but I've never gone as deep as you have to like, go to the Samaritans approach and the, the Alcoholics Anonymous and Socrates and those things. So you're, you're making me think to go a little bit deeper myself. So I, I really appreciate it. What brought you to sales? Like, what, what was your. What was your. Yeah, you know what? I think I'm going to do this. You know, did you fail at 12 other careers first like many salespeople, or did you just always knew, like, what was your. What was.

You know, when I, when I was seven years old, I said, mommy, I want to, I want to work in B2B sales. And she said, jackie, one day you will. No, I was, I was 16 and I was doing work experience in a school and my best friend said, oh, I stayed on at this company, they want me to work for the summer. It's £4 an hour, do you want to come and do it? I said, what is it? They said, it's just calling people. I thought sales was my only experience and if you've ever watched only Fools and Horses in the us, but my experience was Del Boy who wore a big fur coat and had the gift of the gab. And I thought that's what sales was. I did two years summer jobs working. I was crap. I couldn't sell because all I did was talk about myself. And then after university I moved down to London with dreams of making it in the Tailor Made Scott. Now that we've revealed the name and the only thing I knew to do to make money on the side was to work sales jobs. So I've had so many crappy sales jobs whilst working in the band at the same time and trying to make it and then falling off and then going into cruise ships and then sales. And then a point just before my 30th birthday I thought, I've been doing this, I've had about 10 different sales jobs but I've never got good. What happens if you actually dedicate time and effort?

Yeah.

Lo and behold, I actually feel that you can change your life in like one year if you actually put the intent in.

Yeah, I gotta go. I know, I know we gotta do one thing but I gotta ask, what was the crappiest sales job? I gotta hear that story.

I saw.

We all have them.

Oh yeah, I sold like.

So do you know sky tv?

Yeah, yeah, I do.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do.

I sold, I sold insurance for the remote controls of sky tv.

You had to cold call people.

Insurance for the remote, like if your remote control gets lost or broken.

Exactly. Six pound 99amonth or a year, I can't remember. But it would be £30 to replace it. So it was like, yeah, that's pretty good.

I rang a lot of old ladies that just gave me their bank details.

That's pretty good.

Yeah, that's a good one. That's good one. That's a good one.

Yeah, that's Scott. We might have to start asking every guest what's the crappiest sales job? That's a really good question.

That's, that's a good one. Not everybody's gonna have a good answer like that though, that they feel comfortable sharing that. That's a, that's a good one.

That's that's what makes it even better when they're uncomfortable sharing it.

So true. They're like, well last job I had, you can see, right LinkedIn profile, right, that'll be, that'll be a tough one. Well, we gotta move towards wrapping up here, Jack. But we like to end every show by saying how could we be helpful to you? Do you have any questions for us? What can we do for you?

I'm intrigued. This is my topic of conversation at the moment. I asked this question to John Barrows earlier, if you know him. So the question is what do you think AI will do for the sales profession in from 10 years from now?

10 years from now?

I think it's gone probably.

As we know it today. I think it's probably gone. I think there could be some interesting sort of hologram, holographic meeting type stuff, very sci fi type thing. It's very difficult for me to imagine 10 years from now anybody kind of communicating on telephones the way that we historically have done, communicating over email the way we've historically done. I can easily imagine a world where a AI agent buyer instantaneously is communicating with AI agent sellers and making decisions independent of the human behind them. So I'm very like nihilistic and dystopian on all this stuff. So if you're zooming out 10 years for me, I don't think B2B sales looks anything like it does right now at all.

I agree. I don't think it looks anything like that. I think the, the.

I think you're more optimistic than me though.

Yes. I think there are two things. One of them I just learned about last night but the first thing is I think the larger multi committee deals, enterprise deals are going to have more of a human touch. I think the research going into those deals from the buyer is going to change. We're to going right, they're going to. You're going to get shortlisted without even knowing it or you're going to get cut from the short list without even knowing it sooner. So that's going to be a big piece. I think the generative engine optimization is going to change everything. Everybody's got to load all their stuff into the GPTs of the world. And then the interesting thing this was a conversation I had last night is pricing is going to completely change. It's not going to be a per seat license, it's going to be far more dynamic than that and I know a couple people working on this. I just learned about it last night and if you think about it. If I'm going to have agentic agents, I'm not going to pay, you know, am I going to. It's going to be based on results delivered, not based on the number of seats you have or agentic agents because theoretically you only need one agent. You only need one AI person to handle the SMB, the mid market and the ae. Right. So I'm not paying necessarily for three different licenses to that agent. I'm going to pay a small license fee and then I'm going to pay on results. That really blew my mind last night and I'm still trying to wrap my head around it but I think that's, it's making me think about it. Hard, hard, hard, hard about like yeah, pricing is going to completely change.

In the sales world and I think that's something we're not paying attention to right now. We're still looking at the task oriented side of stuff.

What about you? You gonna give us your answer?

I'll be honest, I haven't. Not to say I haven't thought about it but.

I genuinely don't know that's the correct answer.

Is none of us actually.

No, I know but I think we might, I would probably lean into your side, Scott. And I think there is this nihilistic dystopian future. I feel I'm about to have another baby in December and I've got another two year old nearly and I think the world as we know it is going to be changing and I think we will see like your, your Dell deprives of the world that bringing that human touch, that fun that, that There's a guy called Danny Fountain who wrote a book pitch and it's all about like bringing experience to sales. I think that is going to be what drives it. And, and I think the. I think we don't have time or space for anything transactional anymore. If it's transactional. I mean I don't think we've had time or need for any transactional salespeople for a long, long time. But I think now is the time to get rid of anybody transactional and you will only see the, the, the top 1% of actual human sellers that can ask questions because we still need that human connection. So I hope, I mean for a guy that sells his therapy, I'm hoping that there's future where therapeutic techniques.

Right, Right.

If not then I'll write another book called Chat. GBT Prompts to close a deal in seven steps, something like that.

Or, or we'll have a tailor made reunion Oasis style. Oasis style. Yeah, we'll bring.

There we go.

I think it'll be as popular.

I appreciate you spending time with us, Jack. We thank everybody for listening to another episode of the surfing sales podcast. How can people get a hold of you? LinkedIn, buy the book on Amazon, all that stuff.

Yeah, by the book. LinkedIn, Jack Frimson. Nice and easy. If you've listened, let me know, tell me where you've come from. It's always good to, to hear and get feedback. So, yeah, thank you guys for having me.

We appreciate it, man. Thank you so much for sharing everything. So. All right, everybody, thank you for another episode. Listening to another episode of surf and sales podcast. Be sure to check out the FOMO that's coming on LinkedIn in the next 35 days of all our great pictures and videos of surfing in Portugal. And it's going to be a good time. We hope to see you in 2026 at the next event for sure. So thanks, everybody.