S7E4 - The Death of Inbound Leads

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Visit 1-800-CONTACTS.com today to save on your first order. 1-800- What's up everybody, welcome to another episode of the Surf and Sales Podcast. I'm Scott Leese, that's Richard Harris. We are two of the three founders of the Surf and Sales Summit and the co-hosts of the Surf and Sales Podcast. We are on episode 482, that's 482 hours plus. Yeah, of sales, business, entrepreneur coaching content. That's a lot.

And in fairness, it's like 2,000 hours for Richard. Scott doesn't do 10%.

Scott did 25% of the work.

Awesome.

As always, as Scott's mantra. Scott's mantra is work less, make more, right?

Well, yeah, it's sort of low effort, high yield.

Oh, that's the marketing gibberish.

Marketing gibberish. Yeah. Yeah. We are season 7. Episode 4, episode 482 overall, and I'm going to be interviewing Richard today. All right, on this episode I've got 3 or 4 questions, 3 or 4 topics. We're going to rip through this in about 30 minutes or so. Take a look at surfandsales.com if you've never been. Now might be the right year for you. There is all sorts of things to learn and catch up on, and your network matters more than ever. Check it out, surfandsales.com, November 18th to 22nd in Playa Grande, Costa Rica. Okay, Richard, we are going to get started with what we have both noticed is sort of a mixed reaction, mixed bag, whatever you want to call it, um, on the recruiting side. Yeah, on the one hand, you see headlines every other day that are of the effect of, hey, Meta is laying off 60,000 people or something absurd like that, right? So-and-so is cutting 20% of their workforce now, and they're going to do another 40% in a year. On the flip side, there's like hundreds of companies hiring right now for sales and go-to-market roles and stuff like that. So it seems like there's a lot of mixed signals. So what do you make of that?

So there, the larger layoffs I'm seeing are, feel like they're on the tech side, the developer side, the IT side where, where AI can really jump in. Right, coding, things like that where there's actually something that could be done, right? On the hiring side, and look, you and I are jaded, right? We're, we're both jaded to the, the revenue sales side of the world, so we could be wrong. It seems like people are still hiring. Q1 felt like there were a lot of people hiring for sales roles and marketing roles, right? They're sort of ramping for 2026. But then again, like, if I go spend time in my Reddit account, you know, it's, you know, it's fucking doom and gloom. But that's just sort of the internet anyway, right? Like, and then the third part that I'm also seeing, and I think you see this too, is the multiple job offers you're getting and sort of the compensation feels like it's all over the place. The roles are all over the place. I think expectations are somewhat out of line. But that's what I'm seeing, at least on the sales side of the hiring world, you know, and I find it very, very interesting. So I don't, I don't know how you see it sort of on the founder-led side, right? Because you spend a little bit more time there where I spend more time, you know, sort of training the sales teams and stuff. But what are you seeing?

Yeah, I was just talking to somebody earlier today that is going through interview cycles and the same role. Same stage of company, more or less. Okay. And there's a $95,000 difference between the compensation being offered at these two companies. For the same—

both in Austin? Are they both in same geos?

No, they're, they're different geos. So potentially, you know, there's a geographic component to it, but even that is much different than what we've seen previously, right? I mean, imagine you apply to a VP of Sales job. One is in San Francisco where you are, and one is in Austin where I am, and there's a $95,000 salary delta. Yeah, that's massive.

Is it— are they different series size companies?

No, no, no. In this particular case, no. So I think what is the effect that is having on the interview population, people looking for a job, is they've become scared or leery. They're like unsure of when to say yes to an offer because they're like, well, maybe I'm being massively undervalued or massively underpaid over here. But they're also fearful because of all this doom and gloom on the internet and, you know, maybe their own personal life. They need a job as fast as possible, so they're like I need to take something, but I'm scared to say yes to this thing because the next offer might come in way higher. So they're like confused. I, I feel and see a lot of candidate confusion. On the employer side, I see a lot of hubris in terms of like, we are in control and we have the power. So we can make you work in an office, we can make you work from this particular city, shit, we can make you do a 996 if we want to, right? We have 200 candidates for one role, so, you know, we can really like take our time and look for this perfect candidate. So these two factions, these two groups are like totally at odds right now. So I see a lot of people looking for a job, a lot of people trying to hire, and nobody actually getting hired. It feels like a bit of a, it feels like a bit of a stalemate to me.

Right. I, I see people getting hired. I definitely see and hear about people getting hired. Um, but again, I think the, the companies that are hiring are more selective. They're more picky. They can make more demands, as you said, like that's just sort of the, You know, we've seen this ebb and flow all of our careers. So I'm not, I'm not surprised at that. Just out of curiosity, without giving away too much, is the role that's $95,000 the better role or is the lower paying job the better role for this? You know what I mean? Like sometimes it's like—

Great question.

You know what I mean? Like now for $95,000, I'll take the shitty role. Like I really kind of have to. I don't know. Everybody's got a number, right?

Yeah. If I, I know a little bit about this particular case and I would say that The higher paying role is probably the better opportunity. It probably comes with more risk, but it's probably the better opportunity.

What do you mean more risk?

Uh, less likely to be around in 2 years, high probability of failure, high risk, high reward type situation.

And is that—

but I think it's better.

And is that because of what they're building, the industry, or is it an AI thing, or is it a—

oh, it's, it's, uh, yeah, it's what they're building. It's the, it's the product, it's the, it's the market. It's not like a team thing or a founder thing. It's just, I think what you're building is very interesting, and I think it could work, but you're starting from more or less scratchish.

Yeah.

And this other thing is kind of a little bit more established, still in the, in the beginning, but a little bit more established, probably more of a sure thing, maybe less probability for explosive growth, more likely to be sort of slow and steady, and it offers $95,000 less. So are you, are you taking the less lucrative role that is maybe a little bit more stable, or are you taking the more lucrative role that is a little bit more risky and potentially unstable in what feels like a super unstable world?

Right, right. Well, it's interesting too, because it might also come down to, well, what is that person's job history been like? I see, I see a lot of people too where they've been bouncing a little bit more than usual. Um, yeah, yeah, just because of the nature of that.

A lot of that has caught up to people a little bit.

Yeah, I think. Yeah. And, and it's interesting because I think the people who are hiring don't understand the value of the bounce, right? That this person now has a better perspective on the world. They are bringing different skills of ups and downs, right? If, if companies want to do the, you know, fail fast thing, well, that's kind of what a bouncer might be. You might have to look past the last 2 or 3 jobs where they bounced to see if there was stability. Um, because everybody wants the stability thing, right?

They want to know. It's such a hard objection to overcome as a candidate.

Yeah.

If you're dealing with somebody who's hammering you about your job hopping, your short stints or whatever, it's tough. You know, I hear and see it. Every week when people who are losing opportunities because of that, you know, so history, and they took some chances and it didn't work out and whatnot. I mean, one person flat out said to me, well, Scott, that just tells me that this person has a bad, uh, picker, basically. Like, they pick— they pick losing companies, basically. So I don't want them to pick us. It's like a superstitious no, right?

In a way, they feel like it's contagious.

Yeah, they're like the cooler. Remember that movie, The Cooler, with William H. Macy?

Yes, I love that. Like the cooler.

Yeah.

I need to get Riley to watch that one.

Yeah. So they're like, no, I don't want Richard on my team. This guy's, he's bad luck. He's toxic.

Right?

Right.

He's bad luck. He's got bad juju.

Yeah.

Joe Boo doesn't have any refills for that person.

That's interesting. You know, another thing, it'll segue into the next topic is on the go-to-market front, A lot of people have not, or did not, have to outbound all that much for the last few years, and everybody is asking about outbound and what's your outbound process and strategy and what's your implementation of AI in outbound strategy, which has led to a very interesting thing amongst some people that I've been talking to, which is the collapse in terms of the volume of inbound leads. Yeah, demo requests, form fills, all this kind of thing. I don't know if you're hearing or seeing this, but I—

oh, I see it.

I, I cross dozens of, dozens of conversations that I've had in the last couple weeks is we have no inbound volume, we have no warm leads, we have no demo requests, we have no form fills. People are not proactively like seeking our, you know, solution or something like that. What do you think? What do you think's going on there?

Well, so this is my opinion, right? And I think I should probably, you know, I know you love LinkedIn polls, right? Because they're so accurate in general. But I did a poll a year, 6 months ago, asking people if they were just Googling or if they were LLMing only or then LLMing and then verifying on Google. And, and, you know, 60 to 70% were LLMing and/or using Google together, right?

Okay. And that was, that was 6 months ago or so?

Yeah. Yeah. So my hunch, my hypothesis is everybody is shortlisting much faster using LLMs, right?

So they're no longer verifying via Google.

Right. But they're also going and saying, well, show me the top sales trainers, right? And if that top sales trainer hasn't done a good job of SEO and GEO to get their stuff into the LLMs or into Google, then they're just not even gonna get picked, right? Like, that's, that is, I think that's a big piece of it.

So there's less deep research.

Yes.

More superficial research. So if you're a, you know, if you're an accounting software Right. If you're not one of the first 3 to 5 names suggested, you have no shot. So you're gonna get less inbound lead requests is what you're saying.

Yeah. I also think—

Do you think the demand gen has become so noisy and so crowded that, you know, just putting content out there is no longer producing the volume of inbounds either?

I think that's a part of it. I also wonder too if people are so overwhelmed by the information they get right, that, and I can give you an experience I'm having that affects you and I, that they're really just going back to their referrals. Hey, I look at these 4 things, who have you used? Right. And, you know, you and I are both part of, you know, some different communities, right, on Slack and stuff. And, and it's a pretty regular topic and it always has been even in like Modern Sales Pros where, you know, people were, well, what, you know, they're still looking for what is someone's experience with it, right? What is your experience with said thing?

And so I wonder if that's happening because I feel like, but are people taking that advice or suggestions from their network and then just making a purchase and just like not filling out an inbound form?

I think it's a combination. I think it's a combination of people doing the research, right? Whether it's Google, right? And let's face it, at this point you don't Google anything, you Gemini everything. Thing, right? Because that's the first thing that Google serves up is Gemini, right? And so I think they're doing that and then they're trying to verify with a human, right? And they're trying to, and that narrows things down, which is good and bad, right? You know, the bad side of that is that, you know, just because, you know, Scott has used this at his company does not mean it's the right thing for me at my company.

Right.

Short of, you know, a Zoom or a Fathom or, you know what I mean? Like, we all kind of, you know, those things that are so commonly known and I don't want to say commoditized, right? But everybody will trust Zoom. Everybody will trust, you know, a Fathom or trust a Salesforce just because they've been around long enough and those kind of things. But I still see it a lot with the places like Nooks and Apollo and those things were, you know, it's almost like the old sales loft outreach game, right? Which one do you choose?

Right? So, and I wonder if those, I wonder if those companies, if we were to talk to them and we said, what's your inbound volume look like to start this year? Is it the same as last year? Is it up or is it down? My hunch is that they would say that their inbound volume is down.

Yeah. Yeah. I would agree. I would agree, which I also find interesting too, because that means marketing is not doing a good job.

Yeah, you could argue that. You could— could you also argue that people think that they can just build anything that they need on their own now? Why do I need to buy it?

We didn't even talk about this thing.

Should I just build it myself? In a day.

Yeah, you know, build versus buy is much easier than it used to be.

Let me see if I can at least try to build something myself that solves my problem. So maybe the inbound leads collapse a little bit because X percent of those people that would have been inbound leads are now just trying to, you know, build something on their own. But it's led to this interesting thing with salespeople who, you know, yeah, a lot of them relied on inbound leads. They don't have the inbound leads.

Yeah.

Now I have to go outbound and the outbound is totally different than it used to be. And so I think there's a lot of salespeople who are like, oh God, what do I do now?

Yeah. Yeah.

What do I do now? Yeah.

Well, that, this goes back to what you've been preaching and I've been, for lack of a better phrase, ignoring. I don't know that there is a better phrase.

You've been ignoring me. You've been ignoring me.

No, is, is the network piece, right? Like, you know, I've had very good instances where I've done things that have done very well and then I never took the next step. Right. And I think that's part of it. Right. People don't know how to leverage their network. People are afraid to leverage their network. And I think it's a combination.

Right.

They don't know that leveraging their network doesn't mean, hey, Scott, do you want to buy me? It means, hey, Scott, have you heard about anybody trying to solve this pain? I'd love an introduction.

Yeah, so let's— so let me flip the— let me flip the, the camera on you. It's like, why? What is prohibitive in preventing you from— oh, straight up network like that?

Straight up ego and fear.

Ego in the sense of like, I don't want to admit that I need somebody's help, or feel—

I think both. Both. I mean, you know me long enough that, you know, it's hard for— it's a little harder for me to ask for help. Right? Like, that's just part of my Gen X nature. But I think it's the same thing a lot of salespeople do of like, why do I have to do that? I've been doing this a long time. I don't want to do it. It makes me uncomfortable to do it. Right? Like, I teach this stuff. I teach outbound. I teach people how to network. Yet, you know, it's kind of like the accountant is very bad at keeping their own books, but their own books.

Yeah.

Right. Your books are flawless. Mine are a mess. Yeah, right.

So, you know, so it's— I think that's really for me, you know, is my ego. And I think I'm also— I think to some extent, as you get more senior in your career, you also jade yourself to believing I'm too tired to do it, which is really a smokescreen for I don't think I need to do it right. I'm above that. Right. And I think we've always seen that with salespeople. Right. So I think that's it.

I don't want to, I shouldn't have to do that anymore. I already did that in my career.

It doesn't feel productive, right? If I send out 20 messages and nobody responds, what a waste of time, right? Which is what SDRs have to go through every day. It's why SDR role, if you're doing outbound and even those full cycle sales reps, that's the hump. You got to realize that You've gotta understand it's not a numbers game in terms of volume. It's a numbers game in terms of doing it.

It's hard to, it's harder to do and stick with that belief on a new kind of channel. I think.

Mm-hmm.

I'll give you an examp— I'll give you an example. If I email 10 people or DM 10 people on LinkedIn and nobody gets back to me, I can easily just be like, whatever, you know, that happens. But I took a page out of your playbook last night, actually.

Wow, 17 years and it's the first time I think I've ever heard Scott say that.

I took a page out of your playbook. I created a Reddit account. Wow, first time ever. Yeah, so I, uh, I did a little research. I told, I told my bot to go find conversations about XYZ topic on Reddit and spit out 10 to 20 of them to me that I might be able to jump in on and engage. So I did. So I, I dropped my first, you know, 10 or 15 Reddit comments ever.

Okay, right.

And I, I got no replies. Right this morning, this morning when I woke up, right? Now I'm not used to this channel at all, so my brain is like, well, that was a freaking waste of time. Like, what was— what did I even build a Reddit account and do that? Whereas if I made 10 calls and nobody picked up, or I sent 10 emails and nobody replied yet, I'd be like, okay, whatever, that's part of the game. But it doesn't feel like part of the game yet on this new channel for me, and that holds people back, maybe not from testing, but holds them back from, yeah, being consistent with it, right? Because what I need to do now is do the same thing on Reddit, you know, every single day and make that part of my process, and eventually results would sort of show up.

So I can— you wanna, you wanna know my experience with Reddit on this one? I'll give you some more feedback.

Specific Reddit experience? I'm just talking about the channel. The frustration of trying to outbound in new ways because inbound is potentially drying up. But go ahead, give a Reddit, give a 2-minute Reddit masterclass.

So my 2-minute Reddit masterclass is I'm on day 320-something of consecutive doing things on Reddit, right? Like they—

Doing things like just giving comments or offering your own questions or what? All the above.

Any, any of the above, right? I tend to comment more than I post. Now, I will say the value of Reddit is a lot of times that content that I respond to, you know, put something in my head that I then go use on LinkedIn or my newsletter.

Like it's idea generation, right?

It's really great for that.

Yeah.

And the challenge is, is that Reddit is so anonymous that people don't necessarily know who you are.

Right, right.

As opposed to LinkedIn or—

and you don't necessarily want people to know who you are because it's full of venom.

Right, right. Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, and there's definitely some venom out there about one of us. I'll just say that. I've read it. So I've read it on Reddit. So now the other game is that the LLMs are supposedly scraping Reddit. For content. But again, you don't necessarily get the attribution.

Yeah.

Right. So it's— so I'm, you know, I think I'm gonna stop my consecutive day streak once I hit 365, once I hit a year.

Just to say you made— just to say you did it. And then you could say, listen, I tested it for a year. Would you say the ROI is positive for you? Yes or no?

I've had 2 people contact me off of it. So I would not say it's a positive ROI. Neither turned into business.

So not worth it for you? I hate—

you know me, I, you know, as much—

but it hasn't been worth it. It hasn't been worth it.

I know, but you pumped in—

how many hours have you pumped in?

Ridiculous amounts of hours.

Hundreds of hours, right?

Yes.

And you've got nothing out of it, so it's not positive ROI. All right, all right. So that, that leads to my next question then, which is, where does old school sales training and coaching fall into the new modern sales organization? Is there a place for it?

Yeah.

Is it getting cut out and squeezed out completely? Do, do people believe in like, oh, I need a human coach to talk to my reps and work on their pitch and their objection handling?

Yeah.

Demo skills, this kind of stuff.

It's an It's a really interesting thing because the argument is still the same that I've been making for years, which is everybody says, well, we need to do outbound, do outbound, we need to fill the top of the funnel. It's still about conversion, right? It's still about, well, of the people you have meetings with, are they converting? Because if your conversion rate doesn't go up, all you're doing is just accelerating the suck by driving more outbound or you're making more, you're making more work for yourself. Right. And you're losing.

Yeah.

Right. It's not, you know, you're making it harder on yourself and then the things you get are not converting. Well, that's a human element. Right. And I think that's the challenge that I've always said is that's where training comes in.

Right.

It's, I mean, you know me, it's like I teach reps how to earn the right to ask questions, which questions to ask and when. And That's all about the sales. I mean, yes, it starts at the prospecting level, but it's mostly about sales. People don't know how to do discovery. Still, veterans still don't. Everybody's driving to decision makers. Don't drive to decision makers, drive to the skeptics. I'm never getting to a decision maker till I get past the skeptic. Even your decision maker is gonna be skeptical, right? So teaching them these unique things still matter. And I also think the authenticity matters. Like, I'm not a robotic trainer, right? I don't build bots, right? I build humans. And how Scott says something is very different than how Richard says something. So anything I teach brings in that element of authenticity.

Do you think the demand is there for it still?

I think it is.

Do companies and founders want this training done, A, and do the salespeople want to receive this type of training, B?

Yes. I think the sale— I think the biggest shift I've seen in the last few years is the salespeople want it more. And I think that's also a generational shift too. Like we've gotten deeper into, you know, we're kind of past the, you know, millennials are now veterans, right? And now you've got Gen Z coming in and even millennials were much more eager to learn than Gen X.

So if people want it, if the salespeople want it more, shouldn't that mean that people in the sales training business, their business is growing? Very—

one would think that is up. One would think that.

So if that's not happening, why is that the case?

There, there are two things. I think that the people in charge, still think that if you hire a sales rep, they already know what to do. Right? That, that, that's the case. I think that, and I saw starting at the end of last year, I think people overindexed on AI helping with sales training. I think that they are using the coaching tools that are out there, which are great for coaching. They're over-indexing on that to think that that's training. The challenge is that that's at an individual one-on-one level. And then if they notice something, they think their managers can just spin something up really quick that's good. And so those— so it's this confluence of several things, right? That people still think that we are, you know, salespeople are transactional, not in the sense of the sales size, but any salesperson can do it. Right? I think leaders think that AI can still solve this problem. I think leaders have leaned into the AI replacing the SDR a little too much. However, that still goes back to my argument of conversion. Even if the AI is doing great to drive messaging and get you meetings, if your rep sucks, it still sucks. Like, that's not helping you. So it's, it's the same thing with, with an AI wrapper, just like half the tools we see out there, right? Every tool out there has an AI wrapper around it.

Which is a great place to wrap today because everything has suddenly decided that it needs to be everything to everyone and all things. Every platform suddenly has decided they need to be the one that consolidates everything. They all want to be the One Ring to rule them all, Richard, right?

Yeah.

So we all want to be, you know, Salesforce, or they all want to be whatever the sort of mega corps are. Yeah. And it is, for me, it has led to all sorts of bloat Yes, within the tool, within the tool. Like, we're on Zoom, right? We're on Zoom right now. I'm gonna pick on Zoom. I logged into Zoom with you, and I'm not kidding, 5 pop-up windows showed up.

Yes.

Why? Yes, because we're trying to sell me something. The other one is, you know, trying to get me to log in. Apparently I'm not like— it's just like, and then you can do this, you can add that. You've got transcription on here, you've got a million different things. It's like, yeah, wait a second, dude, I don't need all this stuff. I don't need to bring a bazooka to this knife fight.

Right.

What is everybody doing? Why are they doing that?

So there's, you know, every few years, right? We see this, everybody needs to consolidate, right? The sales stack has gotten too big, we need to consolidate. Right? And we've seen that for years. And Salesforce has been on this mantra for a long time. They do it all the time. Right? And, and people tend to gravitate to Salesforce because it is all in one place, which is where is my data stored? Right? Everything else is stuff that's been built around that. Right? For Salesforce. And so what happened is that, you know, we go through this. I got 6 tools. I got one for, you know, email prospecting. I got one for data sourcing. I got a CRM. I've got a, I've got all this, right? And then all of a sudden we start to consolidate. Well, what's happening is these tools are realizing that they can try to consolidate all of it within themselves. And now instead of having multiple tools that create bloat, the tool itself has bloat. Right? And, yeah.

The original tool bloat.

Right. So now the interesting thing is you and I don't run sales teams.

Right?

And I'm guessing, you know, if I've got 5 tools, but I can do it all with Zoom or all with Salesforce, I'm probably gonna like that as a leader and as a rep, I'm probably gonna like it. But you and I live in a slightly different world, but it still feels weird that these tools have a lot, feels like they have a lot of bloat. I get lost in them.

Yeah.

But maybe we're not their ICP. So we're just 2 grumpy old men saying, get off our lawn.

I don't know. I, I think we, we maybe are not directly their ICP, but we indirectly are because we influence the decision-making of people who are their ICP still, for sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I agree.

You know, if somebody was to come to me and say, hey, which video tool do you, do you recommend for our sales team or for podcasts or whatever? I mean, I'm still gonna give an opinion. I'm still influencing in that, in that particular regard. Yeah, the bloat has gotten out of, out of control. So I, I've, I've told some founders recently, you don't need to be everything to everyone yet. Yeah, you know. Yeah, find one problem, solve that problem, be really good at that. Yeah, and that's probably okay for a long, long, long, long time. You'll be okay. You'll be okay. Okay, last question, Richard, before we get out of here. We gotta wrap up our 482nd episode of Surf and Sales Summit. We're in the Sweet 16. Yes, Arizona's in the Sweet 16.

Yes. I, I just love the fact that you said we because you went to ASU, so I appreciate that. Thank you.

By proxy, I guess, right? Well, here's what I'm actually rooting for, you know. Nobody like west of the Mississippi has won the champ— national championship in like 25 years or something like that.

I don't even think I knew that.

Yeah, it's, it's horrible. There's like a graphic been floating around Twitter. It's like all the past 30 years of national champions, and it's like all east of the Mississippi. So what's your confidence level? Forecast, just like a forecast, Richard. What's your confidence level that U of A is going to bring home the title?

So I'm, I'm in a thread with all my college and fraternity buddies, right? There's like 10 of us, and they're all knee-deep right? They'll come in and they'll say what the game plan needs to be, what the strategy is, why did he miss that shot, why is so-and-so on the bench, right? Like, like almost like we're at the game, right?

They're living and breathing it.

They're living and breathing it. And I have to remind them every now and then that Richard has a very distinct rule about Arizona because they broke our heart so much, right? It's Fight Club rules. Fight Club rules. You know, you don't talk about it.

So I Not gonna talk about it, ladies.

Yeah, I have my, I have my hopes and dreams, obviously, but I'm not going to talk about it.

All right, well, I'm rooting for you.

I appreciate it.

All right, everybody, quick and dirty today. Some good topics, good topics for discussion. Hit us up on LinkedIn if you have any questions. Check out surfandsales.com, and we'll see you next time on the Surf and Sales Podcast.

Thanks, everybody.

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