E52: How to maintain breastfeeding when you return to paid work with Courtney Garland — Growing

Hello and welcome to Growing, a podcast about birth, babies, and beyond. I'm your host, Beth. I'm a midwife, a business owner, and a mum. If you're anything like me, you find yourself wearing many hats, and this can be fun and hard and everything in between. So I'm here to offer support and solidarity for whatever season of growth you find yourself in. Let's go! This episode of Growing is brought to you by Sleepy Belly. Sleepy Belly's pregnancy pillow is honestly a game changer for pregnant women everywhere. It is no secret that getting comfortable in bed when you are pregnant becomes increasingly difficult as the months tick on. Sleepy Belly's unique design provides support for your back, side, and tummy, helping you to drift off and achieve a deeper, more restful sleep. Sleepy Belly are so confident that you will love their pillow that they offer a 30-night money-back guarantee. You can get 10% off your pillow with the code BWB10 and visit www.sleepybelly.com.au to shop now. Hello and welcome back to Growing. Today I am joined by the amazing Courtney. Courtney, welcome. Hello, would you like to share with us a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?

And yeah, so thank you again, Beth, so much for having me. So my name is Courtney. I am a registered nurse and I'm actually a NICU nurse. That means I work with sick babies or premature babies. And, um, I'm also a certified international board lactation consultant and a pediatric sleep consultant. So I kind of work in a very holistic manner in the aspect of, you know, I really do consider breastfeeding and sleep together. And yeah, I kind of just give people free advice right now on Mama Link and we're growing. We're going to be offering a bigger platform for mothers and mostly mothers. We talk a lot about feeding, um, mothers to come where they can really have access to a community and a lot of information.

Amazing. It's really— you are a jack of all trades in this space, so it is an absolute joy to have you here today. And I have invited Courtney on today because it is World Breastfeeding Week, and the theme for this year is actually Enabling Breastfeeding: Making a Difference for Working Parents. And this is such a big topic that, you know, often in the immediate postpartum, we are not even thinking about what breastfeeding might look a few months down the track. Certainly in Australia, most of us are fortunate to have those first few months close to our babies. And, you know, if we choose to or if we can breastfeed, we don't have to factor in that separation. However, it does become a massive challenge for women who are returning to paid work. And so we thought today we would just have a chat, and I would pick Courtney's brain about what might that look like and how can you prepare, and just some like practical strategies to get you set up with breastfeeding when you return to paid work.

Yeah, I think it's great. Like, I'm so glad actually that the theme this year is this because I don't think we talk about it at all. We don't talk about like, how do we enable breastfeeding in a workplace? How do you do that? So I think it's— I'm so glad we have this topic.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

So Courtney, if I was one of your clients and I came to you and I said my baby is, let's say, I don't know, 6 months old and I am preparing to go back to work a couple of days a week, what are the sorts of things that I should be thinking about to get us ready for that transition?

So honestly, there's a few things to think about. Okay, so first, I really want you to sit down and I first want you to write down on average when your baby's breastfeeding, 'cause it's important that when you are working away from your baby, you are still pumping and getting that milk out to keep your milk level at the same level baby's used to. 'Cause on your days off, they're gonna go back to feeding on those exact same times again. To help with that. But also too, it's important to know that pumping is not the same as a baby. So when you are away from your baby and you're pumping, it's still great and it's a great tool we've created. But on the days that you're home, you may find that your baby is a little bit more— you're in the aspect of that they are really wanting to feed more and they're cluster feeding a lot more. And this is normal, this is natural. It just can be because the pump is not as effective as a baby. So they're trying to make sure that milk is really coming out and making sure the supply is where they need it. So please expect that and know that it's really, really normal. Another thing is too, is looking into a good pump. Like, you really need to invest and look into a good pump. Also too, like, I know right now with this current economical situation that breast pumps can be expensive. So please know that you can look into secondhand ones, and as long as you get brand new pumping parts like the tubing, the flange, the bottles, the membranes, it's like a brand new pump. So please know you don't always have to buy brand new, especially if you're going back to work and maybe you have to put baby into childcare or something like that, it can be expensive. So cutting back on costs that way can really help. Another thing is getting yourself a handy-dandy insulated lunch bag. Okay, so with your lunch bag, that's where you're going to put your pumped milk. If you don't have access to a fridge, and even if you do have access to a fridge, I still recommend putting in a lunch bag so that it's not mistaken for milk that people can use. So I highly recommend, and get one that stands out, like get like a Oddly enough, I have a Paw Patrol one. But get one that's like, you know, don't get a red or green or blue one because that's very generic. Someone might open it and be like, oh, what's this? Oh my gosh. You know, get one that stands out so people kind of like, I'm not going to touch that lunch and try to steal it. They're just, you know, leave it be. Also too, within that lunch bag, make sure you have ice packs. You need to have ice packs in there. People usually say 2. I recommend 3. One on each side, one on the top to help keep that milk nice and cold. 'Cause when you're transporting it to and from work, depending how far you have to drive, it's really important you keep that milk stable and nice and cold. So yeah, those are the things that I'd recommend. And then we'll get into a few more things too. And with your pump too, another big thing is you need to look into your nipple flange and what size you are. You need the proper fit because you are not gonna be able to pump the right amount of milk if you don't have the proper fit. And then you can get like, you can get sore, cracked, damaged nipples again, which nobody wants that. We, you know, you're into it now, you know what you're doing, so make sure you're measuring correctly. And on top of that as well too, if you're pumping frequently, know that you need to change your pumping parts majority of the time every 2 weeks. They say 2 to 4, I say err on the caution of 2 because it keeps your pump efficient, it keeps it at the same efficiency, and it doesn't because you'll notice that your pump also— I'm not gonna use much milk. Change your pumping parts. It will really make a difference, especially in the membrane.

So just to backtrack there, I've never heard that advice, and I'm like thinking back to my own pumping journey, and I'm like, whoa, that could have made a huge difference. So when you say replace the pumping parts every 2 weeks, what do you mean by that? And what do you mean, like ordering completely new parts?

So, okay, it's not new— it's new parts in the aspect of the valves that go, you know, the valves that come out and they like flap open and the milk pours out, that part.

Yeah.

So they can be the duckbill valve, it can be the membrane valve. Those are the ones that you need to be changing frequently because those get— those are what the vacuum sucks in and out on. So those pressure being put on top of it, so that's why you need to change them. So those are the ones you need to change, and they're not that expensive, they're really not. But you should be changing those every 2 weeks, especially if you're pumping. And on average, this Now the key thing, you should be pumping 15 to 20 minutes. So if you're breastfeeding, you use both breasts to feed, you should be double pumping for 15 to 20 minutes. That is the— that's what research shows is the sweet spot. You don't need to do 30 minutes, you're just wasting your time. 15 minutes, you know, pull up your phone, look at videos of your baby, watch like the pictures, you know, really help those love hormones get secreted to that oxytocin, get it flowing.

Yeah. Okay, that is such a golden nugget. I love that you've touched on how long you should be spending sitting there because there are some logistical things that we need to consider. And I guess this is why the theme this year is so important and why it's an amazing opportunity to pause and think it's not just the mothers and the parents who are doing the breastfeeding who should be taking on the responsibility of making this happen. Hopefully, this year's theme is going to spark a lot of conversations about the onus that is on the community, and in this case, the employers to help you make this happen. But just going back to that example of like, if I'm someone who's getting ready to transition back to paid work, what is the conversation that you would recommend having with your employer to say like, hey, I'm going to need these pumping breaks, I'm going to need some privacy, I'm going to need— you know, what should that look like? And what can the listeners do to make like a little list of things to chat about?

Yeah, great question. So I would actually too, before you go in to speak to your advisor, your manager, that I would sit down and think about Okay, in the office, where was a good place that I could pump? You know, not a bathroom. Nobody wants pumping in a bathroom. It's gross. Yeah. You know, pick somewhere that you thought, you know, was a quiet area where maybe you could shut the door and maybe you could lock it, or you could just shut the door at least, but somewhere that was quiet and alone so you felt comfortable. Because if you're stressed and you're worried about people catching you, your milk supply, it's not going to happen. You're not going to get your letdowns. You're not going to get a good flow. So really think about that first. Then when you go to your manager, talk to them about it. Be like, look, I'm still currently breastfeeding and just be honest with them. Like, honestly, I feel like honesty is the best policy and be like, look, I'm going to be needing breaks. And like I said before, think about when your baby's naturally feeding. By 6 months, usually they're pretty into a good flow, you know, maybe 8, 11, 2, maybe you throw in an extra pump there, who knows? But do 2 to 3 pumps if you're away from baby for like 8 hours, like an 8-hour work hour. So while you're doing that, say to them like, look, these are the times that I relatively would need a break and give them ideas too. Like say like, look, I'll need to be pumping at this time and this time, but I'm willing to do this before that. Or, you know, give them options to make it seem like your pumping breaks are not even gonna be an issue because you're getting everything you still need to be getting done in that day earlier or afterwards. So really make it really inviting for them. I know I hate to say that because employers should be just giving it to us, but unfortunately that's not what's happening right now.

[Speaker:YB] I think it's good to— both things can be true. We absolutely shouldn't have to dance around this. And like we've said, hopefully themes like this and conversations like this, we really need to start putting more attention on the community role. But at the same time, I think it's worth being pragmatic about the here and the now. And if handholding, particularly maybe you're the only female employee on your team, or maybe no one else in your team has had that return to paid work since parental leave yet. So ideas for sort of handholding them to ensure that you both get what you want. And yeah, I agree, we shouldn't even be having to say this, but I guess that's the perspective that we're coming from there.

Unfortunately, yes, exactly. And then I would just talk to them about and be like, look, I only need to pump for 15 to 20 minutes. That's all I need to do. I'll help keep my milk supply up, which will help keep my baby healthy, especially going back to daycare with all these germs. You know, like breast milk has antibodies in it. And then look at you being like, what? But it's another way that companies look, okay, well, if you're taking less sick leave, it's a benefit to them. Okay, it's a massive benefit to them. But another thing I want you to do too is go speak to your HR person, because your HR person probably knows about pumping rules and breastfeeding within the workplace. Most companies nowadays usually do have something in place. So this is a great time to go talk to your HR and be like, look, what am I entitled to? How do I do this? And they might even have rooms that they can even offer to you, maybe on a different floor, in a different area that you can go to. So some of your companies might have this in place. So talk to your HR person too. Don't just talk to your manager, talk to your HR as well.

Yeah, that is such a good tip. And maybe this is a little bit of overkill, but I don't know, just thinking about the way the world works, I would always be inclined to put it in writing after you've had that conversation with your manager. So maybe the next day writing an email and being like, 'Hey, thank you so much for our chat yesterday. Just to recap, I just wanted to just triple check,' or something. 'You know, you understand that I need to pump at these times. This is approximately how long it will take, and you know, this is the agreement. Thanks so much for supporting me with that.' And then it's in writing, and there's an opportunity God forbid if it just became this huge hurdle, or you're getting pushback and you're not getting treated fairly, you can pull that up and be like, "Well, actually we did have a conversation about this being a feature of my return to this paid work," and then link in with that HR support. I think, again, we shouldn't even be having this conversation. And hopefully our daughters and our kids won't even have to worry about it, but this is where we are in the here and now. We do know it's a huge barrier, and so we want to keep this practical as possible.

And I think you're exactly right, like having it down in writing, it just, it just sits there, you know. And like also too, women, we are great at multitasking. Worst case scenario, if you do have to pump and do work while you're pumping, at least get a hands-free pump so you can do work and make it so easier for you. So then there's, there's no reason why you could not pump.

Yeah, I love as well, like you've touched on some things there. So either getting, you know, a really high quality wearable pump, a breastfeeding bra is another option, Also, I think I can imagine that if your breaks are going to be combined with your lunch break or your coffee break or whatever, thinking about taking food, making sure you've got a packed lunch so that you don't have to run to the café, eat up time in the queue that you're like, "Oh my God, I've got to get back to that little room upstairs and pump as well," and thinking about food that maybe you can eat with one hand and having a sandwich, kind of going back to that when you were establishing breastfeeding, those one-handed snacks and thinking about which bras are the most easy. So I guess just to recap so far, the equipment that you've mentioned is a high-quality pump, one that suits whatever, you know, your needs are, insulated lunch bag with some good quality ice bricks to keep things cool, potentially a wearable pump or a breastfeeding bra. Is there anything else that you recommend as a must in helping you get on track.

To make you feel comfortable, if you can't have like a very private room, you may like a nursing cover because then that— it's really big and loose, so you can just like clip yourself in and, you know, you could feel a little bit more comfortable with that. So I would recommend that. And I totally agree with you, pre-plan your food, have it all ready, and just have your lunch kit so you just can eat and do what you need to do as you, as you must. Also, too, just don't forget you can pump in the car, like on your way to work, 8 AM, time, that is like prime driving to work time. That's one feed that you can get out of the way even before you get to work by pumping in the car. Yeah, or give a feed before you drop them off at daycare.

Yeah, I love that.

And as soon as you pick them up, feed them again just to help keep your milk supply at a good level.

Yes, I love that. Maybe just to finish off this chat, I will put the link to the breast milk storage guidelines in the show notes, just so even if you wanted to like print that out, even fold it up, pop it in that lunchbox that you're going to take along, just so that you're always aware of like, you know, whether you're— you need to find a fridge ASAP or whether you need to get home and so on and so forth. You did at the start, um, Courtney mentioned to me that you wanted to give some tips for introducing the bottle just because often this is also a feature of that transition back to paid work.

Yes, and it can be so tricky because especially if you haven't been integrating a bottle every day maybe and your baby has no idea, they downright refuse it. So it can be really hard and really frustrating and extra stress you don't need trying to go back to work. So before you are going back to work, you know that day, you know that day in loom that's coming. So a month before, a few weeks before minimum, really work on trying to get baby to either take a bottle or even look at the sippy cup. If your baby is downright refusing the bottle, try a little sippy cup with a straw or try the one that they can tilt it with their mouth, especially if they're 6 months like you said in the example. They can be really good with that. Oh, I have 6 months and over, I would try recommending those. For underneath 6 months with a bottle, you need to remember that your baby's not used to it. So first give it to them, take away the mystery, let them play with it. Just put a tiny bit, like put 10, 15 mL of water in it. Don't put too much in there because they're going to spill it everywhere. [LAUGHTER] But put it in, let them play with it. Take away that mystery. You know, when they put it in their mouth, they're like, oh, "Great job taking the bottle." Really give that positive reinforcement, positive reinforcement. Never ever offer a bottle when they're hungry because they're not going to take it. Never offer a bottle when they're hungry. If you're trying to introduce a bottle, offer it throughout the day. So when they start taking that little bit of water from the bottle, like I said, 10, 15 mils, doesn't need to be much, then try, you know, 10, 15 mils of milk, expressed milk, because you don't want to waste that liquid gold. So I don't want you using 30, 50, 60 mils. 10, 15, 20 mLs, that's it, okay? Throughout the day as they're playing, try offering it to them. Be like, hey, look, bottle's here. You wanna try playing with it again? Like, you know, and if they take it, oh, great job taking the bottle. I'll say Hadley 'cause my daughter's name is Hadley. Great job, Hadley. Well done. And then she starts taking the milk, be like, oh my goodness, you're taking the milk. What a good girl. You know, how's the milk taste? Like really, really, you've gotta act it out. Like we know as parents that the more you act it out, the more they do things that way. So, you know, really be positive about it because the more negative you are around it, the harder it is to get them to take the bottle and the more negative connotation there is around it as well, which you don't want. And with the bottle too, sometimes it works better once you do to get a place where the baby's taking the bottle, you're like, okay, I think I can add like, you know, 30, 50ml now, let's try this out. Try it again, offer breast milk first, and then try offering the bottle. Always give breast first, then offer the bottle. Slowly get them taking it like that. And also too, sometimes, unfortunately, a good trick is you might have to leave the room. Okay? When a mom's in the room, they know, they're like, "Um, my boob's over there. What's this thing? Who you kidding?" [LAUGHTER] So that's why I'm saying make sure they're not hungry. And also too, like maybe your partner has to now maybe step up or maybe you're, you know, parents or in-laws, maybe you need someone to help you as well once a day, come in and try to give a feed. Now I know that's not realistic, it's better with your partner, but you know, every now and then it's good to have someone else try as well too. But don't put pressure on it. Give them time and know that they will take it. It just takes time. And I cannot tell you, I used to be a childcare worker. I cannot tell you how many babies take the bottle at the daycare when you don't think they will. When they're like, my baby didn't take the bottle at home, they will not take it. That they take that to school. We are pros, we know what we're doing. Daycare workers are amazing, so trust in that they will get the milk that they need while they're there. Yeah, and check your teat as well. Make sure your teat is at a flow that's appropriate for their age. Make sure it's not pouring out and they're just like spilling everywhere. And make sure you're paced feeding them. It's really, really important. So these are things I would consider with the bottle. I know it sounds like a lot, but it gets easier and easier the more you do it, and the more the baby sees it and plays with it, the easier it's going to give be able to give as well. And like I said before, if baby's not taking the bottle and they're over that 6-month mark, give them, you know, a cup with a straw, you know, give them another option that they are taking. Because if you started solids by now, when you go back to work, they can handle it that way. So they might like the warm milk in there instead and warm it up, you know, put it in a cup with some nice warm water from the tap and let it warm up, test it, and then give it to them. Don't give them cold milk. Nobody likes cold. Well, some people like cold milk, but babies don't. They like it warm. Warm. They like it warm because it's— that's what it's like from the breast. It's your body temperature. So we need to assimilate that. We need to make all these similarities to make it nice and comfortable for them.

So many practical tips there. Thank you so much. And I love— I mean, we won't go into daycare. I've actually done an episode on when we started daycare and shared some tips there. But it is so true what you say, that you think that your baby is going to do one thing or that they won't do something, and then 'You know, daycare workers are pros, and babies and children figure out the rules in different environments. It's why your kid will go to sleep for a babysitter or maybe the grandma, and for you, you have to like rock in a dark room singing while standing on your head,' or whatever crazy things that your kids are making you do. And then my mom's like, 'I just popped her down and I said, "Poppy, it's sleep time now," and patted her and she's out.' It's the same, it's the same with daycare. I was blown away at how different some of her behaviors were. So just that's an aside, and I love that you've touched on that because I think alongside all of these concerns and, and worries about overcoming the breastfeeding maintenance is this concern of like, oh, my child might be starting daycare as well. So there's a lot going on for you. We hope that this has been helpful. And Courtney, before we wrap up, can you please share where people can find you? Because you are about to release something epic, and I want as many people to be able to access it as possible.

Oh, thank you. So, um, like I said, my name is Courtney Garland, and I go by Courtney Garland Hawkins. So I am at Mama Link, so M-A-M-A-L-I-N-C. So actually, you might never know this, but, but Link stands for Loving Interactive Nurturing Community. So Mama Link is a place where you can come and on socials, that's literally what we are, Mama Link. You can come there, you can get some free information, free tips about breastfeeding, bottle feeding, sleeping, and baby care all in one place. And I'm so excited to say this, I'm literally holding the app in my hand today. We are releasing an app here soon where you will have all the information you could possibly imagine at your fingertips, videos, tutorials, live demonstrations, like How to bath a newborn and swaddle them. What if they don't like the bath and baby's crying? Well, it's a good thing because I had a baby screaming the entire bath, so I had to know that. So it's perfect. You know, everything you can think of is going to be in this app for you to help you along your breastfeeding journey, your sleep journey, and just help you enjoy that newborn stage. Like, it is a precious year that we have that we want to love and enjoy without the stress and the worries.

And I—

that was what I'm going to take away from you, that overwhelming feeling as well.

Amazing. Thank you so much, Courtney. I will put all of the links where you can find Courtney into the show notes as well as those other resources. But thank you again for joining us.

Thanks for having me, Beth. Have a great afternoon.

Bye. A big thank you to Sleepy Belly for making this episode of Growing possible. Remember to shop via the link in the show notes and use BWB10 for a little discount. Happy snoozing, everyone, and I'll see you back here very soon. If you're hearing this message, then you've listened all the way to the end and maybe you're keen for more. If that's the case, jump over to my website to learn about how I can support you in pregnancy. It's www.birthwithbeth.com.au, or check out my Instagram for heaps more educational content. Thank you for being here, and I'll see you back here very soon.