Lactation mini series: Weaning your baby with expert Courtney Garland — Middee | Pregnancy, Birth & Postpartum Education

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Hello beautiful people and welcome to Mittie the Podcast, a modern day podcast designed to answer all of your weird and wonderful pregnancy and postpartum questions. I'm your host, Monique Maitland, qualified midwife and nurse, founder of the Middle and someone who is about to become your personal in-pocket midwife and virtual best friend. The Middie Society is a community-based platform where we interview leading healthcare professionals, new mamas, and everyday people who share with us their experiences and reveal what they wish they knew before becoming a parent. So buckle up for this crazy and exciting ride. I'll be talking all things tits, bits, spew, and poo. All right, let's get started. After months of planning, I am so excited to bring to you our 5-part lactation miniseries, an invaluable resource for all you wonderful parents out there. We're diving deep into the world of lactation with a series of interviews with some of the best experts within this space, where we're going to focus on the crucial aspects of breastfeeding, aiming to educate, empower, and provide you with confidence to navigate your feeding journey at whatever point that may be. In episode 1, I sit down with Kate Bird from Lactamo where we explore how you can best prepare for your breastfeeding journey as well as some of the common changes which might occur to your breasts whilst pregnant. Episode 2, Kate and I discuss what breastfeeding can look like in that first week, including what you can expect and what is normal newborn behavior. We'll address these questions and more, providing you with insights that will help you navigate those early days with confidence. Our third episode will tackle breastfeeding challenges. As we all know, our breastfeeding journey isn't always smooth, and that's okay! We'll be discussing common challenges and offering practical tips to overcome them. In the fourth part of our series, I'm joined by founders of Your Two Jugs, Elise and Katie, where we're delving into a topic that many might be unfamiliar with, but it's essential to be aware of—mastitis. We'll explore what it is, how to recognize it, and most importantly, how to manage and prevent it. And finally, in our 5th episode, with the help of the incredible Courtney Garland from MamaLinc, we'll discuss the often overlooked aspect of weaning. Whether you're just starting the weaning process or planning it for the future, we've got you covered with expert insights and advice. So join us on this informative journey as we equip you with the knowledge and support you need for a successful breastfeeding experience. Let's get into today's episode.

Hello to my favorite people in the whole entire world.

I can't believe it, but we are bringing you today our last episode for 2023. But before we get into this episode, I did quickly want to say a massive, massive thank you for everyone that has supported Mitty this year.

It has been a phenomenal year, and I'm recording this with the biggest smile on my face. And honestly, I would not, and this brand would not have achieved what it has this year without your support.

So I am just so grateful for each and every single one of you that have tuned in, who have left a review, who have sent me a message saying how much you love the podcast. Honestly, it brings me so much joy being able to do this, and even launching our birth classes this year has been amazing. And to finish off the year having fully booked out my birthing classes for the last few months and already booking out classes for next year.

I, I mean, I could sit here for hours thanking you guys, but honestly, this year has been such a milestone for me with my business.

And yeah, I just can't thank you all enough for supporting me on my classes, on my Instagram, on my TikTok, and for just sharing it with your friends and family.

It just absolutely means the whole world to me.

And I hope you all have an amazing Christmas with your families. And yeah, stay safe over the festive season. I'm actually working Christmas day visiting families at home, so that will be pretty special. But I cannot wait to be back next year, and it's going to be an even bigger and better year for the Mitty Society. So stay tuned because this is truly just the beginning. I hope you enjoy today's episode.

Bye! Hello everyone and welcome back to Mitty the Podcast. Today for our lactation series, I'm joined by expert lactation consultant sleep consultant, NICU nurse. Honestly, what, what haven't you done, Courtney? Um, beautiful Courtney Garland from Mama Link. So Courtney, if people haven't listened to our previous episode, do you mind reintroducing yourself?

Yes, definitely. So thank you so much for having me back again, Mon. I love being on your podcast. We always have such great talks. But yeah, so yeah, my name's Courtney. I am from Mama Link. Mama Link is a platform for women to come to get help with anything about their baby— breastfeeding, bottle feeding, and sleep. So we kind of give you everything in one to help you get through sometimes some of the hardest times of your life. Because after you have a baby, there's just, there's not enough support for you. So that's what I want my page to be for you, is support. And, um, as you know, as soon we are launching and going live with our online app with live videos, demonstrations, everything you can think of is in this video. I even show you pictures of poo and pee and when to be concerned. And, you know, anything about breastfeeding, sleep, it is in there. So we're launching that soon, and So excited to be able to help more women on a bigger platform get the support that they need after they give birth, even beforehand, because we don't— we don't help them before birth. Like, they should be learning this before they give birth.

Exactly. And I don't know how you do it because you're also a mom yourself. I'm a 3. We forgot to add that into your intro. Yes, it's true. So, uh, Courtney is an incredible woman. I actually don't know how you do it, um, but I've had the pleasure of testing your app, and honestly, I was blown away. If you guys don't know Courtney, you will now. But the way that she delivers information is so light-hearted and so relatable, and you will be so well supported from your phone in your pocket that you definitely will have to check out the app.

Thank you so much, I appreciate that.

But today's episode, obviously we are talking about a topic that probably doesn't get spoken about enough, and that's weaning. And for some people, they might hear that term and go, what is weaning? But they will soon discover that potentially they may have to navigate that period of weaning. So first of all, Courtney, I want to ask you, what actually is weaning?

So weaning is when— now there's different levels of weaning too. So weaning is when you slowly start to wean the breastfeeds that you're offering baby due to maybe babies older now, you're starting solids, or maybe you have to go back to work. So weaning can mean a lot of different things, but weaning could just be meaning you wean only a few feeds, not every single feed. So how do you navigate just doing a few feeds and not dropping your supply so quickly? So weaning, there's a lot of diverse ways to wean and what it means, and it can be different for every lady, every woman.

Yeah, and we're gonna dive deep into some of those reasons today. Yes, it gets juicy info. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Get those little golden nuggets of information. But hopefully our aim is to make that journey a little bit easier for those moms that are gonna navigate this period because you and I both know that unfortunately there isn't always that support out there or you know, you may not wanna ask the question because you're concerned what people might think. So hopefully this episode just gives you all of that education and information that you need.

Yes, 100% because weaning, it's an emotional time whether you want to or maybe the baby's decided, it's emotional, it's hard. And you got to think about all those hormones that create that lovely milk that's going to impact things and it's going to make you very emotional about things. And that's normal and to be expected.

But it's hard. It's hard. Yeah. And I vividly remember my sister Emma when she was sort of navigating a bit about weaning. She was like, "Mom, you need to do a podcast episode on this because like, I don't know what I'm doing." And I'm like, "Emma, I'm really sorry, but my knowledge does not extend to weaning." So hence why I have you on the podcast today, Courtney. Win-win situation. [LAUGHTER] and it helps me learn. But what are the most common reasons why women might begin to wean?

Yeah, so some of the reasons why a mother may need to wean would be because, you know, maybe they're going back to work, or maybe there could be some serious issues going on, like maybe they need to start certain medications that they can't have while they're breastfeeding. Or, you know, maybe they're also too— they've just decided they want to wean a few feeds, which is completely okay and normal. So maybe it's their choice that they want to be doing this. And some reasons a baby may decide could be because maybe they're teething, maybe they're on more solid foods now, and they're just kind of not interested as much anymore. So a baby can also decide to wean. It's not just the mother, which can be surprising for people. It's like, oh, well, the baby can choose. I'm like, yeah, sometimes they can, and they can really have like a nursing strike happen. So it can be common for babies.

Yeah, and that was definitely my nephew. As soon as he got onto the solids, he was like, give me more solids, and hence why he is such a big boy still today.

[LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Totally get that, yep.

My boys were the exact same, they were like, "Food." [LAUGHTER] The thing about weaning is it's so different from person to person, and there is no right or wrong time to begin to wean. Never. And it's so dependent on what that woman is going through, and also what that baby and how they're developing.

That's it, that's 100%. Like, you have to do what's right for you and your family. I'm always a big fan of that, and I always teach that. It doesn't matter whether it's breastfeeding, bottle feeding, formula feeding, sleep, you have to do what's right for your family, and whatever makes you and your family happy, that's all that matters.

That's all that matters. Absolutely. So I guess my next question to you, Courtney, is for those women who, you know, maybe they're thinking, okay, I just want to reduce my breastfeeds, how are they going to start to wean?

Yeah, so perfect. So if you're just wanting to wean a few breastfeeds and, you know, maybe get some time back to yourself, if you're wanting that, I would always start with one feed a day. Okay, so first what I want to do is I want to look at how long— whether you're breastfeeding or pumping, because that's another thing, some women might be pumping and not actually breastfeeding that feed— look at how long the total amount the baby or you're pumping for. So if, say for instance, the baby's breastfeeding for 15 to 20 minutes or you're pumping 15 to 20 minutes, I want you to take that number and slowly decrease the amount of time you're doing it for a few days. Then once you get down to a point where you're, you know, 5, 7, 8-ish minutes and you're pumping or feeding, see if you can completely wean that feed. So weaning a feed, I always recommend doing it gradually because if you do it fast and abruptly, you can run into issues like plugged ducts, mastitis, that kind of stuff. So the way I just explained was very gradually, so that could take you quite a few days, maybe a week to wean a feed, okay? Yeah, then you can continue doing your next feeds. But if you're wanting to do a really fast, abrupt way because you have no choice, maybe this is where I'd recommend speaking to a lactation consultant because they can really personalize a plan to you— for you, sorry. But also too, if you're having to do it that way and you have to abruptly stop, you need to be prepared for how your breasts will change. Yeah, so when you quickly stop like that, you're going to get engorged again. They're going to be like those hot rock-hard watermelons that you get when your milk first is coming in those first few weeks after baby. Yeah, so you need to reduce the pain. So if it's too painful, pop on a pump, whether that's, you know, a manual pump or an electric pump, just for a minute or two, or hand express to relieve that busting pressure. Like you feel like you're gonna burst, you're like, oh my gosh, are they gonna explode off my body? Like, what's happening? Relieve the pressure and keep an eye on it. It and really try to only do one feed at a time still. But that is a quicker way to do it. But again, just make sure you're speaking to an LC and have somebody on your side to really guide you if you have to do it abruptly.

And then what about for those women that potentially are beginning to wean because they are returning to work? How are they going to navigate that? Because we know that returning to work can be so challenging for mums, um, and it's often not spoken openly about at all, at all.

So there's a few options with weaning before going back to work. So now some women still like to maintain breastfeeding at nighttime. So if you're still wanting to maybe do a breastfeed at nighttime and maybe in the morning before you take them to childcare or childminding, and again in the evenings, that's totally fine. So then with your feeds during the day, you're going to do exactly what I just explained. So we're going to slowly try to wean one at a time. Just decreasing the amount you feed for or pump for, and then slowly after a bit wean the next one and then wean the next one again. If you're wanting to do all of them, then like a full 24-hour, like no more breastfeeding, again, this is where I still would advise you to go gradually as well. Yeah, so like, and some moms do, like they wean all the day feeds, but then some may still pump at work. Like if they're busting, they may still bring like their pump in that to pump at work just to get a little bit of milk, release that pressure and that tenderness. So that's also another issue too. Like, it's not an all or nothing thing. Like, this can be— this could be a multifaceted way of feeding. Like, you don't have to wean everything. Like, you can if you need to, you can keep a few. It's, you know, you've got to see what's going to work for you and your family.

And I guess you always do have the option of pumping and still stimulating. Like, exactly. And we're going to talk about how we could potentially increase our supply a little bit later if we're deciding we don't want to wean anymore. Exactly.

Yes, it's— and that's a good thing too, and a good point. And like with bottle feeding too, like if you're having to wean your baby, especially if they're under a year, it's still really, really important they are getting milk feeds. So this may be, you know, breast milk, or it may need to be another substitute now, like formula. So you really need to sit down and look at those things because you're gonna have to start introducing a bottle if they haven't been having a bottle. So you need to be getting some tips around doing that and make sure you're paced feeding as well, because under 1, it's really still important that they're getting those caloric needs met, especially if they're not eating solids because they still need milk feeds around it.

Milk, solids complement milk until they're 1. Yeah. And Courtney just mentioned paced feeding. And for people that might not know what that is, pretty much we sort of go by this within the hospital setting when we're looking after babies, specifically more so probably in the NICU, we pace a lot more babies. Um, but pace feeding just refers to when you're giving a bottle, like taking your time. If you think babies, when they breastfeed, they can take 20 minutes, they can take 30 minutes, they could take an hour, that same amount that they would be getting, it doesn't need to go through the bottle in about 5 minutes' time. Yes, I think we just associate bottle feeding with a really quick feed, and you're going to run into all sorts of trouble there. Your baby still needs a rest, think of putting your mouth under like a tap that just isn't going to stop. It's hard for them to suck, swallow, and breathe and digest.

Exactly. And also too, it's also the way you hold the bottle too. Like, you don't want to be holding it vertically, you want to be holding it horizontally. So then it allows them to take breaks when they need it. But also too, then it's not just dripping into their mouth because you really need to check your bottles and teats as well with that too.

Yeah, and they can pace the feed. Yeah, exactly.

And it's— face feeding is lovely. It can help with wind, gas, spinning up. Oh, it's beautiful.

[LAUGHTER] So then what about those babies that are potentially showing signs that they're starting to, you know, maybe they're ready to reduce the volumes of breastfeeds? Yes. What are some of those signs?

So some of those signs could be that they're just refusing the feed. They're just like, boob in my face, no thank you. Like, they are just like, they won't even let you get them into the position to try to feed them. They're just not interested at all. So first things first, like, first just make sure there's nothing going on. Like, are they getting sick? Are they teething? Do they have like— just make sure that what they're trying to communicate, if it is they're what, they're done and they're not wanting to breastfeed anymore, or if they maybe have a sickness coming on, a leap, mental leaps really throw everything out the window. Sleep Feeding, everything goes out the window. So it's good to check that. But these are some big signs that baby could be showing you, and it's not necessarily a bad thing. Like I said, give it some time. Don't force it because the more you force it, the more it's going to backfire on you. But yeah, those could be some of the things that a baby would show you when they might be trying to wean. Or another one too, which I experienced with my middle one, is the good old biting. They just nip at it. They don't nip. No, no, no, no, no. I should rephrase that. They slam those teeth down on the nipple and you're like, okay, there's blood. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Maybe you're not really interested in this anymore.

Honestly, I don't know how women have nipples left after breastfeeding. It's pretty incredible. From bitten nipples, elastic nipples.

It's an array of things that happen.

[LAUGHTER] And then So obviously when the baby starts to self-wean, so that's sort of what we're talking about now, what can parents do?

So if they're starting to self-wean, really look at their caloric intake during the day. So you need to make sure that they're staying on top, you're staying on top of that. Look at their nappies, make sure they're having good output still. So it's kind of like going back to the newborn stage, being like, okay, are you having 5 to 6 wet heavy nappies? Are you pooing frequently? So there's things that you need to make sure that your baby's still being nice and hydrated if are deciding to self-wean themselves. But this is also to be inventive, like try new things. Like if they're not wanting a bottle, try a sippy cup with a straw. Try another cup where they can, you know, just tilt it up and sip out of it, you know, with— put a thing on the top, like make sure there's a thing on the top so it doesn't spill everywhere. Yeah, but you know, there's other things you can try as well to see if they'll take the milk, to see what they're doing. And if they're at a solid point stage, maybe see if they want more solids inside instead to help support that caloric intake. And also too, when babies are really, really sleepy, this can be a great way for you, whether you want to try to get them on the breast or not, or to offer a feed. When they're really sleepy, they're more willing to kind of suck for comfort. So then they may get some milk while— they will, they won't, they will definitely 100% get milk while they're comfort sucking. Yeah, so this can be a great thing when they're first waking and they're really fighting feeds while they're still drowsy. You can offer just like a comfort boob to get the milk in them. And before bedtime, you can try doing it. So these are a few ways you can try to help them with offering some, some extra feeds into them. And also, too, like, please know it's okay if this is starting to happen. Like, this does happen. We can never explain it. Like, sometimes it's like— I've worked with so many women now, and some babies that want to wean, they just want to do it, and there's nothing we can do to change it. Like, we can try all these things, and if it's not working, please you have not done anything wrong. And that's really important. When a baby's trying to self-wean, it's not you. You haven't done anything wrong. It's just something that baby's wanting to do, and it's just them. So please do not blame yourself. Be kind to yourself because it's something you didn't do. And also too, like, when you are doing this weaning and it— if your breasts are really hurting like I talked about before, make sure you're relieving that pressure. Like, don't let it build up so you're leaking breast milk and it's painful and they were busting, relieve the pressure for a few minutes, get rid of that till the pain's gone. And then, you know, your boobs will be rock hard for a few days, maybe a week, and then slowly they'll soften again as your breasts start to understand that we don't need to either produce enough, this much milk, or we're weaning this feed completely.

Yeah. And you did mention, you know, paying attention to how many calories are going in. When you talk about that, is there a certain amount that babies should be receiving based on their age? Like, how do parents work that out?

So I would recommend speaking to your medical professional or an LC in your area, just because it depends on your baby's age. And it depends because, like, how— this is really funny because in the NICU we do this and we base it on how many mils an hour. So once baby hits a certain age, this will start to plateau, especially when they're having solid. So after 6 months, it could be about 120ml per hour per kilo. So if your baby weighs, you know, 4 or 5 kilos around, usually that time they're like maybe 5, 6 kilos, you know, you've got to times that by 120ml an hour and then divide it by however many hours they're feeding. So like they're— yeah, do you know what I mean? So it's a tricky thing. This is why I recommend speaking to your medical provider because it's, it's about 1,000, 1,200 a day of mils. But again, it depends on your baby's age.

Those are very rough numbers. Yeah. And honestly, just take the stress out of it, seek support, and get those volumes. Because you and I both know, Courtney, that mums love exact numbers. Yes, they love numbers. So if you're someone that needs numbers, you know, you— we are not expecting you to work these amounts out by yourself.

I mean, we get trained in this Okay, but I also know how old your baby is and how much they weigh. Yeah, yeah.

So make sure you just seek support if you're someone that's going, okay, how many calories is my baby, um, needing? Because the question that you're going to ask yourself then is, am I feeding them enough? Yeah, am I giving them enough?

And that's why, like I was saying, watch those nappies, watch their output. Whatever goes in has to come out, especially with drinking. So make sure they're having 5 to 6 wet heavy nappies.

But also, you know your baby now. You know, say potentially they're 6 months old. You know what their feeding signs are. You know what their hunger cues are. Don't go by specific numbers. Go by what your baby is telling you because you will know them better than anyone. 100%. We could recommend, we could recommend numbers, but that actually might not be the best thing for your baby to have that amount.

Them. That's it, 100%. Like I always say, like with bottles especially, like you could be doing 240ml every single bottle and they only take, you know, 180, 200ml sometimes with a bottle. So every feed can vary as well, exactly like you're saying.

I mean, we don't eat the same amount all the time. Gosh, no. I mean, thank God, because otherwise I'd be running into some issues. Same, same. Um, so Obviously we spoke about if a baby is starting to self-ween and you're introducing solids. What happens if you have a baby that's still really wanting the breast, but you know they've hit that 6-month mark and you're starting to introduce solids? How would you navigate that?

So look, I would go easy on yourself and baby. So it takes time. Like, remember, milk feeds— a solid, sorry, complement milk feeds. So, and let's be honest, when they turn 6 months, they are still learning what food is. It is a mess. They're smeared all over face. They're not taking, they're spitting out of their mouth onto the bib. Like, yeah, it is a lot of playing initially. And it's also too, they don't take a lot initially. So don't be disheartened if they're not taking a lot. Like, it takes up to 8 to 9 months to build them to be able to do a breakfast, a mini snack, a lunch, another maybe mini snack, and a dinner. It takes time to build to that. And gradually with your feeds, your feeds will decrease with the amount of naps your baby's doing. So when your baby hits 7 or 8 months, they'll drop down to 2 naps. Well, you just went from 3 naps at 6 months to 2 naps. So then your feeds are going to logically decrease as well. So everything starts to slowly come down the more awake your baby is and the more solids they're taking.

It doesn't— yeah, it doesn't matter too much in terms of how often they're breastfeeding.

That's it. That's it. Like, and just— exactly. So it's just offer your milk feeds. You can offer milk feeds first until they get more into the solid story, and then you can offer the solids after. Once they start loving the solids, then you can start maybe offering that first instead of the milk feeds. It depends on your child and how things are going.

Yeah, definitely. And I think we've highlighted that a lot, that it is not one size fits all here.

No, it's like our boobs. Everybody's boobs are different. Even your own boobs, you have one boob that's different than the other. You may even have one inverted nipple compared to the other side.

It's bigger than my left side.

Exactly. And we always have one boob that's bigger. Do you know what I mean?

Like, it's the same. Yeah. Sorry, that was too much info for everyone. No, but do you know why?

But, you know, most women do have it. Do you want to know why? Why? It's because your heart is on the left-hand side, so it takes up more space.

Wow. I am mind blown. So that's why the right side is bigger than the left.

Yeah, it's why it can be. Interesting fact, hey?

That is incredible stuff. I know, I love that fact. Sorry about too much info, everyone that's listening to this. But everyone, most women will have the same. Yeah, I know, you've just given everyone that lightbulb moment. I can guarantee that every woman just then has touched her boobs and gone, oh my gosh, that's correct. We've pretty much just done a Mean Girls moment of it's a 99% chance that it's raining outside.

Yes, 100%.

[LAUGHTER] Anyway, back to what we're talking about. We've sort of touched on how mums can be quite hard on themselves when it comes to weaning. So obviously some mums have to wean because they may not have a choice, and that can be really challenging because they're wanting to hold on to these beautiful moments with their baby. So how can mums look after themselves when they start to wean?

So first off, like, I really want to just again say how normal it is to be feeling the feelings you're feeling, but also it can be the other end too, where you're just like like relieved to be done too. There can— it can be both sides of the table here. So yeah, if you're feeling really upset about things and you're really, you know, really down about things, I want to reassure you. But now that there's other ways that you can start having a strong, still relationship like you do now with them, like you can still cuddle them, you can still, you know, maybe you can start playing and doing certain fun things with them. There's other things you can doing that still show just how much you care and love them. And it's just your baby's growing, and it— that's hard, like, learning your baby's growing and meeting new milestones, and they're not needing us as much anymore. Like, it is a big roller coaster. Motherhood is a big roller coaster. So my best advice is to be kind to yourself and just find other ways that you can really bond with them. And trust me, you're probably already doing it and don't even realize it, or you do, like spending quality time with them on the floor, rolling with them, playing with them, talking to them, reading a book, that still can give the same amount of connection. And cuddling, kissing your baby, it lights up the brain just as much as feeding and touching them will too.

Yeah, and I mean, you can still share those beautiful moments giving your baby that bottle too.

100%. You're still holding them in the same position and they still look up at you gazingly.

So 100%, great point, Yeah, I mean, that's because I'm like, oh, it's so special when I'm like bottle feeding babies. Not even like, obviously I don't have children, but in the nursery or just like, it's such a peaceful moment. And when they look up at you, even with my little nephew, I'm like, please let me give the bottle. Like, it's such a special time.

It is. I 100% agree with you. That's why I love the NICU and can't wait to get back to these little babies.

Can I just ask, so obviously we've spoken about the potential that when you begin to wean, if you're not expressing, there are other types of nutrition that you might need to be offering your baby. We've spoken about solids, obviously formula, but what if we're introducing cow's milk?

So you can't introduce cow's milk until your baby's over 12 months. So if your baby's over 12 months, then you can definitely start doing this. So you can start substituting cow's milk with it. You can water it down a little bit if you want at first, like if you feel like it's a little bit too much. But there's other options too. They can do cow's milk. Again, this is where I recommend speaking to your medical provider provider, because you can do cow's milk, you can do oat milk, coconut milk. There's just so many things that you can do. But again, this is where it's really important that you speak to your medical provider about that. But yeah, you can start switching out your bottles if they're over 12 months with, um, instead of breast milk, they can start having cow's milk instead.

Yeah. And I feel like a lot of women, you know, set themselves, just got to get to that point so that then I can, you know, if those moms are ready to reduce supply. So I thought it was just a good point to touch on because some people may not realize that you can't give it until after 12 months. Yes, exactly. Great point. And I have one more question for you.

Yeah.

If you're a mum that's started to wean, maybe you were sort of in a position where you thought you had to begin weaning, but then maybe things have changed and now you don't have to, but all of a sudden you feel like your milk supply has decreased and you're not producing, you know, the amount that you were before, or maybe you just weren't ready to start weaning and you started the process and were like, okay, actually no, I want to, I want to keep breastfeeding. Um, how can they then increase their supply? Yeah, great question.

A common question too, more than you think. So this is a great question. Literally, it's going back to the basics, and it's also having that understanding that your baby's going to be wanting to feed more to increase the supply to where they need it. Now, you have to remember that if you have cut out like, you know, 2-3 feeds in a row during the day, that you may need to be helping your supply by doing some pumping as well, offering the breast and pumping. So we usually recommend 15-20 minutes. So 15-20 minutes on a pump is about equivalent to an entire breastfeed, what research shows us. So I'd be offering the breast but then I'd also be pumping to bring that supply back up as well. Also too, I'd be under the understanding that they're just going to be cluster feeding as much as they can too to help that supply come back up. It's going to take time, it is not impossible, it is very doable. Patience on both your end. And also too, if the baby's getting really, really upset, you can always try giving a bit of bottle first and then offering the breast because they might get too angry with the breast that it doesn't come quick like it does with the bottle. So sometimes it's less of evil to give a little bit of the bottle first and then offer the breast until your supply's back up and everything is, yeah, back to that. And pace feeding, pace feed, help yourself and your baby.

Yeah. And it just comes back to that fundamental of breastfeeding, which is all about supply and demand. The more you stimulate the breast, the more messages go to your brain to say, I need to produce more milk. And then that message comes comes back down into the breast, and that's where that milk is created. So just bring it back to the basics. Don't overcomplicate it. Listen to your baby, look after yourself, and remind yourself that you're doing an amazing job.

Yeah, motherhood's not easy. We're all smashing it, all of us, every mother.

Yeah, and everyone's journey is so different.

100%. Even every baby's journey. Like, my goodness, my one One baby, he breastfed till he was almost 14 months and then weaned when I was pregnant because he just didn't like it anymore. Second one, he bit me. I think it was— he was like May and he's June. So he was literally— he bit me on Mother's Day. Great gift. But he was 11 months done. Didn't want it anymore at all. And then my last baby, again, she weaned herself. She was 12 and a half months. She's like, I'm done. I'm like, okay, I'm not. Yeah, okay, bye. Yeah, but every baby's different. To. Every journey is different and there's always support for you if you need it.

Like, please know that. And I mean, your app is going to be one of them.

Yes. Like, I literally have a section on pumping, bottling, and weaning. That is one of the programs because it's important to learn about that stuff.

Yeah. And actually it doesn't get taught until they're in it and they're— they've tried to like start the process and they actually don't really understand where they are. And that's where that anxiety comes from.

Exactly, 100%.

And that's why we do what we do, Courtney. Yeah, we're trying to educate women about it before they get there in the first place, so then they can pull on that knowledge and make this journey easier for themselves in maybe just even a teeny tiny small way. That's our aim.

That's it. And like, even if it's just remembering a name to go look at, look up information on that page, something simple as that, at least it triggers in you to be like, oh yeah, Let's go look at that, you know? So it's, yeah, it's catching them while we can before it happens, because once you're in it, we call it the trenches, don't we? Like when you're in motherhood, you get in the trenches at certain ages and certain times, like you got your blinders on, you can't see out of it sometimes. So by having this subconsciously, it would pop in there and you'd be like, boom, okay, this is what we need, this is where I gotta go.

I just think of us like when we learned to ride a bike or when we learned to drive a car. How long did we practice before we got our license? Exactly. You know, motherhood, giggling-suit, it's day by day. And some days you just have to learn on the spot. You know, for example, if your baby just decides, okay, I'm done. And then all of a sudden you're like, what's going on? Like it's a big adjustment. 100%.

And it's just like your breastfeeding journey. Like you can really, 'cause breastfeeding is not easy. There's ups and downs to breastfeeding. It's the exact same.

Absolutely. Well, Courtney, that brings us to the end of our episode. I am so grateful for you coming on. You are such a wealth health of knowledge and just a down-to-earth, incredible woman. And also a massive congrats on everything that you are doing. So yeah, for everyone who is listening, where can they find you?

Thank you so much again for having me, Mon. It's been lovely. Yeah, yeah, I am— so I'm Courtney Garland and I'm, uh, from Mama Link. So you can find me at Mama Link with a C. And yeah, coming over to our Instagram page We've got lots of exciting things launching soon with our app. Maybe by the time this comes out, our app will be live. [LAUGHTER] And I'll offer—

We know technology though, don't we?

Yes, we do. And I'll also be offering free breastfeeding classes. I have a free prenatal class where we talk about how to get started on the right footpath for breastfeeding, but I'm also going to have a free breastfeeding class about nipple pain issues. What to look for, how to get out of a few things. So stay tuned for some of those things coming as well, where it's completely free.

You just watch a video, that's it. Amazing stuff. You're doing amazing. Thank you so much. Bye, Courtney. Bye. Thank you. Bye.

Thank you for listening to today's episode of Mitty. Your support means the absolute world to me. So if you loved this episode and want to stay up to date with the latest interviews and midweek free education, please hit the subscribe button and leave a 5-star review. For further information about this episode, please check the show notes below. If you wish to share your pregnancy and motherhood experience, you can get in touch with me by emailing hello@themiddiesociety.com.au and find us on Instagram at @themiddiesociety or @monique_maitland. I cannot wait for you to join me next week. I'll be talking all things Flapchat. In the meantime, I hope you have an amazing week, and remember, you're doing the best you can.