Harvard Professor Explains How To Reverse The Aging Process Feat. David Sinclair

I want to talk first off about aging and how we measure it, because, you know, I'm not sure, you know, if we're going to not age or we're going to reverse our age, there has to be a calibration method. And I'm wondering when you do that, is that telomeres?

Because I know you talk about the.

Horvath clock also in your book. How do you measure aging?

Well, we used to just look at people, and that person looks kind of old. That person doesn't.

Right?

Then we had telomeres, which was all the rage in the 1990s. Actually, telomeres aren't the whole rage anymore. There's a new way of measuring aging, and it's this Horvath clock you mentioned. So the Horvath clock has revolutionized our ability to design ways to slow down and, in my lab, accelerate aging. We can measure it. I could take your blood today. Maybe I should take some back to my lab, and I could measure your actual biological age. So forget about candles. They're irrelevant. I could measure this Kovath clock, and I could tell you not just how old you are biologically, but how long you're gonna live and when you're gonna die. When you're gonna die, yeah, very accurately. It's scary, but this clock actually tells us, I think, about what the process of aging is. Why do we age in the first place?

So it's not telomeres is sort of old school now, Is that what you're saying?

Well, you know, I try not to just be black and white about this, but telomeres is certainly not the whole story of aging anymore.

So.

So in general, then, we're very specific. Why do we age? How do we age?

Well, so this is what's in my book, which is I've kept bottled up an idea about aging, and we studied it for 10 years and kept it secret, and it all just flowed out onto the page in the book. And we have all this research to back it up. What I'm proposing is that there are lots of different causes of aging. Telomere loss is another, is a main one. There's stem cell loss, senescent cells, zombie cells that accumulate all these things. We actually, as a field, I'm a scientist, first and foremost. We declared victory over aging about 10 years ago. We said, there are eight causes of aging. Let's put them in a pie chart. We're done. We know what causes aging. And I'm there thinking, that's great, but what causes those things? Is there a Unified Theory of Aging. And that's what I've got in the book. It's called the information Theory of Aging. And it can explain, I think, why all of those things happen. So instead of building nine dams or eight dams on eight tributaries, we may be able to go all the way up and stop the main driver of what causes us to get old.

So I want to go through a couple of things. By the way, the book by the way now has an audio version that's been updated as well. And I really recommend you all if you have the book is go get a look at the new audiobook and listen to that. Because there's a whole new thing in the book there that he's added as well. But I want to go through some of the basic things you've covered because some of these things I do, and I'm wondering if they're still effective and I'm wondering if I shouldn't be doing them anymore. But one of the things I was prescribed, I have had a touch of arteriosclerosis in my life. And one of the things my cardiologist was concerned about was inflammation in my body. And so I was prescribed Metformin in an effort to reduce inflammation in my body. And I'm wondering all of your thoughts on Metformin because it's at the kind of the. It's part of the book and it's also part of a lot of the conversation about anti aging glucose regulation and those kind of things.

Yeah. So the thing with metformin that everyone needs to know and will know if they get the book, is that there are three main ways to slow down aging. Three genetic pathways. I work on one pathway called the sirtuins, which we can talk about later. But there are crux of defending against aging. There are two others. One responds to how much protein you eat and the third one responds how much energy, chemical energy is in your body. That's metformin.

Okay.

So metformin will trick your body into thinking there's not enough energy and it'll respond and actually make your body, we think, fight against aging, and particularly type 2 diabetes. So metformin is a drug that came out from the French lilac. It's originally a, a natural molecule, but it was tweaked a bit. So it's now a drug. You need a prescription. But I'm shocked. Are you still taking Metformin?

I'm not.

Ah, well.

All right.

We need to talk. But I'm not an md.

But why should we talk? Should I be still taking it.

I don't make any recommendations in general, but what I do is, I take it you do. I don't leave home without it.

Can I tell you why I stopped and you can correct me? Okay. I stopped because I started to read at least anecdotal evidence, because I do lift weights. I'm an athlete. I'd like to think of myself as an athlete, even though I'm pushing 50 years old, that it may have some negative implications on athletic performance and, or recovery.

All right, so now we're really jumping in fast.

There we go. I've been waiting for today for a long time.

Sorry.

Yes, Metformin, what it does is it inhibits your mitochondria. It makes your body think you don't have enough energy and your body will respond accordingly. And. And you become what's called insulin sensitive. You'll have low glucose levels in your body and it'll prevent type 2 diabetes. What we also know from studies of 10,000, up to 100,000 people, in some studies, people who take metformin seem to be protected not just against diabetes, but against heart disease, cancer, frailty, and Alzheimer's. That's all good. That's what you find in an anti aging or longevity pill. Metformin is great because it's, as far as we know, pretty safe. It's been taken by probably 100 million people around the world. It's on the list of the World Health Organization's list of essential medicines for humanity. So it's pretty good. You're not going to die from it. It's very rare. Consult a doctor, as you did. But I was surprised that your doctor put you on Metformin even though you didn't have diabetes. That's very rare.

The reason was, and I won't say her name, but I think she's sort of at the cutting edge of this and she really does believe that one of the greatest risks to my health or anybody's health is developing type 2 diabetes.

Great. So your doctor knows a lot more than most doctors, correct?

Most cardiologists, it's Lipitor and Crestor. And don't eat a steak.

Exactly. And their view, and I train a lot of doctors and work with them, but their view is unless you pass the threshold of a disease, we won't treat it. But metformin will prevent diabetes as well and get your glucose levels. And actually the best predictor of longevity, which is right now, besides this clock, is your blood glucose levels. You want to keep them down. You do not want to go Up. And I was going up and up and up. So I started taking Metformin a couple of years ago.

You do?

And my. Ostensibly my biological age, based on different tests, not the clock, but the other tests went from 58 down to 31.4.

It's incredible.

And you look 31.4, and I look 58.

So I want to.

I need to get back on Metformin.

I was joking with Ed that I needed to wear this padded suit so that I don't look such a wimp. You're looking great. Thank you. But let's get back to the musc. So this is called hypertrophy. Muscular hypertrophy, which is great. I would love to look like you, and I just don't have the time to do it, but it's great. Plus, you will be much stronger when you're older, which is key to living longer.

Bone density, things of that sort, all of that's great.

And actually, one of the things we like to say in my field is the best way to live a long life is to hang on to the handrail, which basically means don't slip and break your femur or you're done for, like my grandmother. But let's get into something really important. A lot of people aren't sure about Metformin because it. There were two studies just this year that showed that it slows muscle hypertrophy.

Right.

But here's the good news, okay? And I know the world's experts in this, and I've talked to the authors of the paper. So here's the scoop, all right? First time, awesome, right? You're getting this. This is awesome what they found. And this is also work that's not yet out. So let me give you the scoop, okay? The patients that got Metformin and those that didn't, they all got bigger muscles and they all got stronger. Okay? One group got slightly bigger muscles. That was the group on placebo. And those on Metformin didn't get so big, but when they did the strength test, they were equal.

Wow.

So they're all strong.

Wow.

They may not look as good. So I think it's a vanity versus longevity decision, but I think there's a way around this as well. Now we're on the cutting edge, so we don't know for sure. But what I do is when I work out, I stop taking Metformin, let my body recover for a couple of days, and then I go back on it. And, you know, Peter Attia, the good doctor who studies this, we both agree that you don't want to be taking the same medicine every day, necessarily. Just as you don't want to work out every day, you need to give your body a rest.

Okay.

So, you know, we cycle so in.

Between workouts, you might. If someone works out, let's say Monday, Wednesday, Friday, you might suggest that the workout days specifically, they not take something like Metformin on those days.

That's what I do.

Okay.

That's based on everything we know in the world right now.

Okay. And then, by the way, thank you for that, you guys. First off, I'm so grateful that you exist because. No, I. We're talking about this off camera, too. That this whole field that you're in is moving so quickly and you're at the cutting edge of it. And I think every person listening this regards to. They want to live healthier. They also want to live longer. But as they live longer, they want to be able to. They want to. I've already looked at it differently. I look different. I love my dad, but I look different at 48 than my dad did at 48. You know what I'm saying? I think athletically, physically, my strength level. And I think what's possible with somebody like you, like right now, if someone did all the things that are in your book, if they put the right formula together, not only do you think they can not be aging, but what's the window of time they might be able to reverse their aging by. I know that's by person, by person, but in general, how many years can someone reel off their life or add to their life, rather?

Right. Well, so someone like me doesn't typically exist because they're scared of what my colleagues. Our colleagues will say. And it's pretty rough for a scientist to be out there talking about things that are really on the cutting edge and projecting into the future.

And to some extent speculative still, correct?

Right.

Based on evidence, but speculative.

But how selfish is it for me and my family to reap the benefits? We're all scientists in my family. We're on similar programs. How selfish is that for me to keep that bottled up? I want to tell the world what I'm learning.

It's wonderful.

And we're in a world where now everybody can learn as fast as I'm learning and what I'm doing. And I feel an obligation to do that. But what about talking about the Metformin, the story couple, two and a half.

Years, it says it takes off or adds to.

It can, right? Yeah.

Theoretically, if you're 50, you're now 47 and a half if you're on a. The normal dose of metformin is what they're saying. But we don't really know. We don't know what it's going to do to diminish your ability to get type 2 diabetes. What that could do. Heart disease. All the inflammation in your body because of these glucose spikes. Correct.

Well, so here's the most important take home message is that only 20% of your longevity and how you'll feel when you're 70 and 80 and 90 is genetic. The rest is in your hands. Isn't that. That's liberating.

Yes.

I mean you can sit on the couch, you can eat potato chips, you can not exercise, you can eat whatever you want. But you're minimizing your potential. And what we all have in our bodies, what we co discovered in my lab, is that there are genes that control how long we live. We work on these pathways and what we've discovered is they don't just exist, they respond to how we live. And what we want to do is trick our bodies into thinking there's adversity. Biological stress, not emotional stress, but biological stress. So now we understand why does exercise make us healthier and live longer? Why does being hungry make us live longer? Why do all these things, eating good foods? It's because they're turning on these body defenses, these longevity genes that we work on. And that's the revelation. They're in all of us. But they become complacent unless we trick our bodies into getting this feeling of adversity.

Adversity.

So we call this hormesis. Hormesis is what doesn't kill you, makes you live longer. And that's the reason you should be running and getting out of breath. That's the reason you should be eating plants that have been stressed themselves. You get the benefits of those molecules that they make for their own benefit.

Okay.

We call that xenohomesis. Terrible, terrible word. But anyway, it's good to eat stress plants like, that's why red, red wine's good for you. We believe it's full of those molecules.

Thank God.

Thank God.

Yeah. So resveratrol, you'll remember we.

Yes, where are you? So let's go there. You're famous for that. And I got the feeling lately maybe you're not as married to it as you once were. Or am I incorrect about that? And then for those of you that are taking resveratrol, is it also not true that if you're not doing something that can make it bind to something so that it can be absorbed by your body. Do you mind talking about that for a second? Because people just kind of willy nilly take these pills, I think to some extent and think they're doing something. So, A, do you still feel as strong about it as you did at one time? And B, could you tell us how to properly ingest it?

Sure.

Thank you.

So I also dodged the question, not intentionally, of how far can we slow and reverse aging?

You did. I'm sorry, you're right. I let you dodge that. Well, I try because I'm so fascinated.

I worry because people say, oh, how can you say that?

Right, right.

So this is my best guess, is that you can alter your lifespan at least a decade by how you live your life, maybe more. And my father is an example of someone who took life by the horns, changed his life. He's super fit. He's now 80. He's living life like he was 30 still. He's got no diseases.

Is that right?

He just put his name on a wait list for his dream car. I'm making a wait list. You're optimistic.

That is awesome.

Started a new career.

Really.

This is the future for all of us. If we look after our bodies and do what we think is the right thing. Love it.

Right?

So that I think that 10 years is.

10 years is at least based on current science, something you could be doing right.

And actually every four years longer we live, we gain another year just because the trajectory of the science, how it's going.

And we're going to talk about CRISPR a little bit later where we might be able to interrupt heart disease and some other things here going forward that'll just, That'll extend life. My God, it could be three decades. But go ahead, go on. Resveratrol, if you would.

So resveratrol is this molecule in red wine that is thought to protect the French from high fat foods. And we discovered that it activates an enzyme in the body called SIRT1, one of these Sirtuin protective enzymes that's activated by hunger and exercise.

Okay.

So whereas virtual, we discovered as the first molecule that could mimic a calorically restricted diet and exercise. This wasn't an excuse to just sit on the couch and eat, pop a pill, because we actually found that if you take. If mice took resveratrol and exercised and ate a healthy diet, they lived the longest. Okay, so it's combination, but you want to keep these enzymes active because as we get older, these defensive enzymes like SIRT1 they go down in their activity.

Okay.

There are two ways to keep SIRT1, super active besides living the healthy lifestyle that many of us know about and is in my book, page 302. 303.

Unbelievable.

Jump, jump to the. Because some people, they want it, they just want the facts right? Just want the list right. But resveratrol is a remarkable molecule. Plants make it to survive because plants have sirtuin longevity enzymes as well.

Okay.

But when we ingest that, we get the benefits. So you said I was not as hot on that. Yeah, what happened was.

Yeah, okay, I was right.

What happened was all of us who have been blessed to be successful in what we do have gone through really hard times. And I had my moment, the worst time of my life in 2010. So I'd spent.

What was that? Do you mind saying what it was?

Yeah, sure. So I had discovered resveratrol activates anti aging pathways. We'd shown that it extended lifespan and everything from a yeast cell to a worm to a fly to a mouse protected them against a western diet and even extended their lifespan when we gave it to them every other day. That was great. We developed drugs that were showing efficacy working in humans to treat a disease called psoriasis, which is inflammation on the skin. Everything was looking like we were going to be the first people to make a drug that treats aging on the market. And then a couple of companies, for reasons that we can only speculate, came out with their science and said, it's all wrong. Everything David said is wrong.

I remember that it blew up.

Yeah, I remember that.

It trashed the trials. And I was the pariah of the scientific world. And it was tough. I spent a week in bed. I couldn't get out of bed. It was real depression. And I was really angry with the world, I'll admit, because here I am trying to do my best. I'm putting my life aside, I'm putting my family aside to help the world like you do. Well, maybe not just family, but you know, we want to grow up.

I know exactly what you mean.

And it was. And then everyone said, haha, you're wrong. Screw you. And it was tough. But you know, my passion is to leave the world a better place.

Yeah, this is your calling.

So I couldn't stay in bed. That to me is worse than death is just sitting there.

Hope everybody just heard that.

It really is. You gotta have. My mission is to change the world in this way. So got out of bed and spent the next three years testing whether what these companies were saying And I'll say who they were. Pfizer and Amgen both didn't agree with us. But what it did, and the silver lining was it forced us to do even better science and go back and test our hypothesis very, very rigorously. And we put out a paper in the journal Science, which is the best in the U.S. best in the world, probably showing that we were right, that resveratrol really was activating this enzyme and wasn't what the naysayers were saying. But you know what? In the media, there were crickets. No one cares about the comeback guy, right?

That's right. They just cared about the fall.

So what we've done over the last, what is it now, seven years, is we've been testing this even more rigorously. I'll tell you what we've done, okay? We've created a mouse. We can genetically create mouse with very specific changes. We change the mouse by changing one amino acid, one part of this protein. So you don't mind if I get a little bit technical here?

Do it.

All right.

Please.

So the enzymes are basically machines that change other proteins. And SIRT1, it's the traffic cop. It tells the body to fight diseases, fight aging, but to do that, it has to move, it has to change things. And what it does is it has this active enzyme activity in the middle. That's its chest. But this arm is the activator. This is the gas, sorry, the accelerator pedal. So the accelerator pedal is pushed by resveratrol. Resveratrol, come in.

I get it.

Stick here, push the accelerator. And now the SIRT1 enzyme is fighting against disease.

Okay.

Now we figured out that you can block this step by changing one little thing. Give it tennis elbow. It can't bend the elbow. Now Resveratrol cannot work anymore.

Got it?

So we made a mouse that was unable to bend this arm and activate. So the accelerator pedal, we took it out of the system. The mouse is otherwise normal. It doesn't have the accelerator pedal load. So if we're wrong and we give Resveratrol to these mice, they won't live longer on a high fat diet, Western diet. If we're right, Resveratrol won't work at all. And we got the second result 100%. And that's as close to proof that we were right in the first place. So what I'm hoping is that'll reinvigorate the field and we'll get those drugs back into those clinical trials. But I haven't been sitting on my hands. I've been working on other molecules that seem to have a lot of promise and maybe even better than the original discovery.

Such as?

Well, we call them NAD boosters or NADs. Some people call them NADs. So there are two ways to activate these protective enzymes. One is the accelerator pedal. The other is the gas that comes in through here. And without either of those, you don't have hyperactive system. And as we get older, we lose this nad.

Yeah.

So it's estimated that by the time you're my age, 50, and you're getting close, you have about half the levels you did of NAD when you. When you were young, when you were 20. So of course, your defenses against aging are going to be about half the levels that they were. So there are some ways to keep your NAD levels relatively high. One is to exercise, lose your breath, work out.

Lose your breath. You said that a couple times.

You want to lose your breath.

So not walking.

Cardio.

Lose your breath. Cardio.

Yeah. That's the best way, at least based on the animal studies we've done and some human studies.

Okay.

And then the second is you want to be hungry at least part of the day, and that'll raise the levels of.

What do you mean by that? So do you believe in intermittent fasting or do you?

I do.

You do?

I do. We used to restrict calories the whole day in these, what we call calorie restriction. And that was the paradigm for about 70 years, actually. And in the last 10 years, we've realized, hey, you don't need to always be hungry. You can actually eat a decent meal or two, but don't eat three meals a day, don't always snack, because being hungry is what turns on these protective enzymes. And so I've now shifted my life to eating small meals. Now what I do is I skip breakfast as best I can, eat a very late lunch, or even forget to eat lunch and then eat a normal dinner.

This is more and more so that Dr. Ian Smith, I told you, was on my show. His book was about intermittent fasting, but that the aging benefit was never discussed. We discussed the health benefit, although I'm sure Ian's aware of it. It's not something that we discuss. Just put a loop on resveratrol. What about the way you take it? Is it important? I was reading that you thought something about taking it with either, like a yogurt or a milk or something it can bind to. And why does that matter?

Well, so there are clinical trials over the last 10 years based on our research, and some have failed, and some succeeded. And the main reason that they failed, in my view, is that doctors who don't understand resveratrol have just given the pill with water. And resveratrol is the equivalent of brick dust in. It's like eating sand. Right. We're here on the beach. If you eat sand, you're not going to absorb it. But if you crush up the sand and mix it with things, you might absorb a little bit. That's what we do with resveratrol. And what I do personally is I have this amazing yogurt that I make myself, and I mix it with that, and it dissolves beautifully. And have a couple of spoons of that.

So if I'm taking a pill, could I take it with a yogurt? Is that what you're suggesting?

That would work in your stomach? I have powder in my basement, so I just spoon it in. I take about half a gram to a gram.

Okay, awesome.

But, yeah, you got to do that. And so the recent studies that have actually included resveratrol with a meal have succeeded in lowering blood sugar.

Got it.

And there are actually now. I was just at a meeting in Washington, D.C. where they have beautiful clinical data showing that it works like metformin to reduce blood sugar as well.

This blood sugar concept, because that's my cardiologist, is a big thing, too. This is just going to be huge throughout everything that we're learning about the body and keeping it stable and not aging and also not doing. Not even turning on certain. Can inflammation the body speed up, turning on a genetic code that's already in there?

Absolutely. That's a really good point. The inflammation is a problem because if you have inflammation, it'll also shut down these defenses against aging, and that'll lead to more inflammation and just accelerate aging. We know that we get to about 40, and we're still pretty good. We get to 50, and we're starting to feel a little different, looking different.

That's absolutely true.

And then you fall off a cliff.

Yes.

That's this positive feedback of inflammation shutting down longevity genes and vice versa.

Okay.

And it just once or on that.

I have found that those things we're talking about later, like my vision, other signs of aging really started to accelerate in my mid to late 40s, approaching 50. I mean, massive difference. So I didn't interrupt you there, but certainly something I've seen evidentially, like my own experience as a human. I feel myself aging now at this point.

Yeah. So there are things you can do to slow that down.

Right.

And things that we're doing that slow and reverse aspects and then technology that can reverse all aspects.

Okay, let's keep talking about that. By the way, everybody, this is one of these shows. My audience loves this. Just so you know, so many of them are driving right now. They're gonna go back. This is. Watch it again or listen to it again. And you're taking all these notes. So I want to go through a couple other specific things. We've talked about resveratrol. We've talked about metformin. There's sort of this cocktail, sort of that you suggest to some extent. I want to talk about growth hormone for a second. What are your feelings about growth hormone both taking an exogenous version or doing things that may, if it even works, of growing your own. And why is growth hormone so important or not important?

Yeah.

So in my field of aging research, it's debated tremendously. And most of the debate comes from studies of animals. And what we find is that animals that have low. Low levels of growth hormone live longer. So there's this.

Low levels, live longer.

Right. Okay. But there's something that my colleagues don't appreciate, and that is a lifelong treatment of a lifelong existence with low growth hormone. What you end up with is dwarfism. So small animals, due to a lack of development, live long.

Oh, wow.

It's also, by the way, known that the smaller you are, you tend to live longer. We know that from pet dogs. If you ever had a large dog, you know the problem. So the reason is that during development, we're actually slowing down the clock. And you actually. The clock is changing when you're young as well. But what I believe anyway, is having read thousands of papers on this topic, is that growth hormone isn't bad, but it won't make you live longer because what it's doing is some benefits. It's going to improve your body's metabolism. It's going to help you grow muscle. But what it's not doing is turning on the longevity genes, which is what you need to do. The kind of things that I'm doing to get those active as well.

Okay.

So what's exciting to me is maybe you could take growth hormone, but then trick the body into thinking that it's lacking growth hormone and that you're exercising tremendously.

How would you do that?

Trick it?

Yeah.

Well, what I do it is the combination of the metformin with the resveratrol and there's the NAD booster, which I take. Those are the three main components, by the way. I don't recommend anybody do anything. I'm a PhD, not a doctor. But I feel no obligation to say what I do.

And by the way, one other thing. There's all these companies out there suggesting that your name's on them, but you're not involved with any particular company that's nad that they could purchase.

Purchase right.

Now I'm glad you mentioned that because if you look on the Internet, you might think that I have 10 companies. There's even a Sinclair lab, somebody started a company with my name on there. So I don't do that. And there's a very good reason for that. It's because I need to be able to give you my unbiased scientific opinion. And if I have some favorites, why would you trust what I'm saying?

Good point. Okay, so we've got the growth hormone answer. Okay. My age, you find a dude looking like me. That dude may have had an interest in hormone replacement. And I'm wondering your thoughts on that. So I've had people say to me, as your hormones in your body diminish, you are aging. And so for that reason in the anti aging movement, particularly testosterone therapy for both men and women now is a pretty highly prescribed and recommended protocol as their own levels drop. What are your thoughts about that?

Yeah, I think that makes perfect sense to me. Okay, there are two points. One is that maintain what you've lost. I think it makes perfect sense. Testosterone and growth, growth hormone. But don't think that they're going to make you live longer. That's not the solution. I think you need to combine that with these other things that will put your body in a defensive state because testosterone and growth hormone, they're going to do the opposite. They're going to put your body in the growth reproduction state, which is great when you're young, but it's not going to extend your lifespan.

Do you believe, is it a wives tale, that either testosterone or the growth hormone may grow organs in your body or do we not know? In other words, the heart might expand to a dangerous extent. And secondly, I just love asking you this stuff.

Sorry.

And secondly, the potentially if you were to develop cancer or a tumor, that it could accelerate the speed of which the disease manifests itself in your body. Do we know? Do we have an idea? Do you have an opinion about it?

Yeah.

Well, so it's debated. So there is. The truth is we don't actually know, but I've read all the literature and my personal take on the science is that it's not a risk to develop tumors. But if you have a tumor, then I think that. Then you get serious with your doctor, and I think you stop this stuff. But everything I've seen is that things that you and I do, they're not going to make things worse. But if something's detected, then we're in new territory. So, for instance, NAD boosters. I take those. If you give those to mice, they have new blood vessels. It's like a super drug for athletes. They can run further, but you don't want extra blood vessels growing in your tumor. So I think that, with an abundance of caution, anyone who has a tumor, don't take these things. But it's not going to necessarily grow a tumor if you don't have one already.

Wonderful. Okay, so let's talk. By the way, thank you. Are you having as much fun doing.

This as I am?

Because you know all this stuff already.

Well, this is one of the best interviews I've done because we're getting into all sorts of things that I usually don't get asked about.

Wonderful.

Let's talk about aging for a second. So as we're measuring aging, I've heard, I've read some things. So understanding what's happening, could you explain to us, is it the cell's inability to now read the DNA like it used to, or what's happening that's causing this to happen in our body? And is what I just said completely ridiculous?

No, it's correct.

Good.

We're done. We're done here. Ed's gonna do the rest of the interview by himself. Seriously, you summed it up probably better than I could. Which is the analogy I use is a dvd. These old things you used to put movies on. Any kids watching or listening, These are old things used to put digital information on. But they're a good analogy because you can actually scratch them.

Okay.

And so a DVD is the digital information. And our genome, our DNA, is digital. Instead of zeros and ones, it's ATCG chemicals. That information is actually very robust. You can get it out of an old person. It's intact. Mostly. You can get it out of a fossil. It lasts for thousands, if not millions of years. That's the cool thing about digital information. Glass, there's another type of information that controls the reading of those genes. We call that not the genetic, but the epigenetic information. And epigenetic basically says, how is the DNA organized? So a cell reads the right genes at the right time, and we don't know as much about it because it's much harder to read the epigenome than the genome. The reason is the epigenome is not digital information. It's actually analog. It sucks. Anyone who's had a cassette tape or a phonograph or a record player is actually experiencing the problems with analog information. There's generations of people now that have never experienced analog in their lives. But trust me, analog sucks. And our bodies, Half of the information in our bodies is analog. And that's the problem. That's why we age, because the analog. We have an analog system that reads the DNA, and over time, it doesn't read the right genes the right time anymore. And cells, when they don't read the right genes, they don't function well. So our blood glucose goes up, we get weak, we get diseases. That's aging. But also what happens is that the cells forget what type of cells they are. They despecialize. We call it X differentiation. Essentially, we become a melange, a collection of cells that have forgotten what kind of cells they should be.

Gotcha.

And that is pretty bad news, right?

Yes.

If you scratch a dvd, you're in trouble. We've been looking for the polish on that dvd, and I think we found it.

Okay. And it is.

Well, we call it reprogramming. Genetic or epigenetic reprogramming. And it's a set of genes that we can put into cells or into the eye of a mouse and reset the age of that animal. Remember that clock that we're going to measure on you?

Yes.

We call that the epigenetic clock for a good reason, because it's actually the analog changes in the cell. But here's what we can do. We can actually tell the cell now that you're old and you're not reading the right genes. Go back and read the genes the way you should.

Okay.

It's essentially polishing the dvd. Another way to think of it is we're rebooting the cell.

Yes.

We've got corrupted software. Screw that. Let's restart the whole computer. And you're young again. Erase the hard drive, start again. We didn't know that was possible until a year ago.

Wow.

That's what's in the book. I was writing the book as we made these discoveries.

Wow.

Imagine that there's a memory of being young in all of our bodies that we just have to tell. Reset.

Oh, my gosh. And so do you mind naming the company that you're involved with that I was reading about that had something to do with the retina or you're doing it, You're Working on it specifically with eyes.

Is that not right?

Yeah, that's right. So it's still in stealth mode.

Yeah. This is incredible.

But I'll reveal it to all your listeners for the first time. It's called Iduna. And it's interesting. The first part of it is eye, because we're going to treat glaucoma.

Oh, my gosh, this is huge.

And then Iduna is also the Norse goddess of longevity. But here's what we want to do. And I'm an entrepreneur just like you, because I believe not just in making discoveries, but making them practical for people. Iduna is planning and working towards treating the loss of vision in people.

This is unbelievable.

But if we can reverse aging in the eye, what. What can't we reverse aging in? So it's early days, but what we've just discovered, and we have a scientific paper, if you Google my name, you'll find it.

Okay.

We were able to reprogram the retina of an old mouse that couldn't see very well anymore to be young again. So the nerves in the back of the eye, they became young, and these mice completely got their vision back.

This is unbelievable.

This may be one of the most exciting things that we're on the brink of that you're at the forefront of on the planet right now. The reason it's important to me a, it's funny, as I've aged, I had perfect vision. You know, as a baseball player, I mean, unreal vision. I could read a street sign from miles away. People, I don't know if it's miles away, but far away. People say, how do you see like this. And now I'm finding I can't read the street sign from 30ft away. This area where I'm most aware of my aging is in my ability to see. And I have a sister, I haven't told you this, who is juvenile diabetes, born without a pancreas that functioned. And she's gotten to the point where essentially in long stages of her life, she's been completely blind and now sees just to some extent. And so do you think that there's even properties eventually with people with, I mean, massive retina deterioration, you believe is going to be something that could be reversible at some point.

So I don't want to over promise because it's just a year old and we're making discoveries pretty fast, but it's still in animals. But let's just suspend all sorts of disbelief right now and talk about what's possible. So what I can tell you is the reason that you and I are losing our vision. The reason we have to do this at night is because the nerves in the back of our eye are not youthful anymore, and they're forgetting that they're nerves.

Right.

As we said earlier.

And if I reprogram your eye just with an injection, what I think would happen is that you'd get those nerves would say, oh, shit, I gotta work. Well, again, that I think we can do. Our nerves in our eye are no different than a mouse's eye.

Really?

Okay.

But we did another experiment. We crushed the back of the optic nerve. We really? Yeah, like you crush your spine. It's not going to grow back unless you're a baby. We reversed the age of those nerves so much that they actually started growing back to the brain even after we killed them before we crush them.

That's.

Oh, my gosh. So if you can do that in an eye, as you said, where else could that eventually be applicable in the body? Is un. You guys. Unbelievable. Now, we're not talking a decade. Now we're talking. We could potentially talking people living extremely long lifespans. What's doxycycline?

Doxycycline is an antibiotic that you take for Lyme disease and some other infections. It's pretty common.

What's the application here?

Well, so we engineered our treatment so that we put new the genes in the eye.

Yes.

And then we give the myostoxycycline for three weeks and that turns on the genes, they get their vision back, then we turn it off again by taking away the antibody. So here's a future scenario. We can put those genes into our whole body, and as we get older, or God forbid, we break our back or we injure ourselves and we're not going to survive. We get an IV of doxycycline, or we take a pill and we've become like deadpool. And we can regrow things. Like an axolotl would chop their limb off and they grow again. And then we stop taking the antibiotic. We're young. And then we can wait another few.

Decades, do it again.

Right. So here's the cool thing, and I'm going to mention this in my social media because we don't know the answer yet, but I'll keep you updated. I'll give you a call.

We'll have you back on.

I'd love to come back on. We don't know how many times you can press the reset button and restore the hard drive. It could be once we've done that maybe it's a hundred times.

Oh, my gosh.

I'm such a. I'm not a skeptic. I think sometimes my mind goes to, what's the problem with that? And I think about, is there really enough food in the world if people are living 2 and 3 and 400 years long? Have you thought through some of those issues? Or that's something you don't even think about?

No, I think about it all the time.

You do?

Yeah, because it's the planet and humanity, water and food.

Right. There's only a. There's a finite amount of that, at least right now.

Well, so I talk about this in my book also, because we can't just solve aging and make people live a decade or more longer without tackling the other problems we have. But what I've done is the calculations and the rationale comes out that this is the best thing we can do for the planet. Now it sounds crazy, right? That if we have people living longer, how's that going to help? Well, first of all, it doesn't raise the population that much. In fact, most countries are leveling off anyway. Even if we stopped aging today, the rate of population growth isn't that much. There aren't that many old people that are dying actually. It's actually less than the rate of immigration right now. And there are a lot of countries that need help. Japan is losing its population, Europe as well. So there's that. But talk about consumption. We throw away half our food in this country. We gotta fix that first. But the biggest thing, the big takeaway message is if we can keep people healthier for longer and just have them die in a matter of months at the end, which is what happens if you live to 100.

I understand now. Okay, I get it.

So centenarians, we call them people who make it over 100, they die quickly, usually have a heart attack or a kidney failure. They cost at least one third less than the rest of us. I get it.

Get out of there. I just got it.

Yeah, that's trillions of dollars saving. We already waste a lot of money on healthcare, keeping people alive for 10 years in nursing homes. I think we all have a duty to keep ourselves healthy for longer, if not for ourselves, but for our children and our grandkids who have to take care of us for 10 years.

This is a revolutionary conversation for me. It's a paradigm shifting conversation because some of the things we discussed today. Everyone, I want to go back. You have to get this book. You have to get this book. You have to be following this man on social media. And you're going to want to get the next one. This is someone that if you want to live better, longer, healthier, you want to stay close to this man because obviously he's going to live for a whole long time and he's at the cutting edge of all of these things we've talked about. I want people to dream for a minute. Then I'm going to go for a question about I don't have a lot of money and I want to begin to live longer. But I want to go to one more thing just because I want people to understand some of the possibilities are out there. Talk to them about CRISPR just a little bit. Because this is combined with what you just described, something that is you begin to think through all of the technological advances in the world. But in terms of terms of this space, we may be entering the, if we want to call it the Internet age of anti aging right now we may be sitting on the apples and the Microsoft concepts, the Googles of anti aging right now in some of these spaces. And these will change people's lives. So tell about crispr just for a second.

So we've gone through what we can do today in our daily lives. And there's cutting edge technology that I talk about in my book and we just talked about that's coming very soon.

Yes.

And there's medicines already that you can possibly take. But the future looks incredible. I've already said that even if we don't have these breakthroughs every four years, we get to live longer. We get another year of life. That's great. But what's coming makes my head spin. And I've been at the cutting edge of genetics for the last 30 years. And I just can't believe every morning I wake up and I pinch myself that we're living in the future. Already what's coming blows my mind. So in my department at Harvard Medical School, I get to work with people who grow eyes in a dish and people who work on all sorts of futuristic stuff growing brains in a dish. George Church is one of my good friends and colleagues. He's just. My lab's just on the different floor than his in the same building. So he's one of the guys that women as well. There were a team of people that showed that you could actually edit the human genome.

This is huge.

So we can now read the genome. You know, instead of billion dollars to read your genome, I can do it in my lab. For a device with a device that.

Big right now for 100 bucks, right?

I can do that today.

Yes.

And soon it'll be in a few hours for less than the cost of a needle.

Crazy.

That's the crazy stuff. But it gets even crazier when we can actually change the genome. We don't just read it, we write it. And we can change genes. We can put new genes in very easily. There are drugs on the market. Most people may not realize, you may not realize that we can now FDA approved drugs. We are changing people's genetic diseases. We're curing genetic diseases. We are living in the future, man.

It's crazy.

But the future for us is going to be even crazier because we are just on the cusp of hundreds of companies working on CRISPR and gene therapy. And this is the hottest thing in biotech right now.

I mean, imagine the ability to interrupt the fact that you have a predisposition to heart disease or a form of cancer and interrupt that. How about this? Maybe this is nuts. Could we potentially interrupt somebody's and make them smarter? Could you change someone's intelligence through altering their genome? Could you do that?

Well, theoretically, there's a lot of genes involved in intelligence, and the brain has to be wired from an early age, okay. But we know that drugs are capable of making you more intelligent or at least give you more creativity. So we could do that theoretically. But one of the things I'm excited about is being able to alter our bodies in ways that make us resistant to certain diseases. Heart disease, hiv. Now we can get to that. There are two kids on this planet that were genetically modified to be resistant to hiv. That's craziness now. Crazy to think about. Now there's a whole debate. We in the world should start debating whether we want to not just help ourselves, the implications of kids resistant to heart disease to cancer. We know how to do this. If you said, david, could I make my kids resistant to cancer? That's easy. I could do that in my lab. One of my students could do it. It's not difficult. We know that there are species that live a lot longer than us. They have certain gene variants. They have special types of these longevity genes. Whales can live 200 years. We know pretty much what they're doing. They're stabilizing their epigenome. Their DVDs don't get scratched as much. So whales can live 200 years. So it's possible. We know some of the genes that are involved. We could give ourselves that, or we could give our children that.

Why would we not? What are the negative implications of something like that.

Well, we just want to make sure it's safe. I think that's right.

Meaning what else is it doing? Is that what you mean?

Right. You could make them intelligent, but they might then get cancer the next day.

I got you. So I want to make sure I pronounce it right. Senhlinx. Am I saying that correctly?

Senolytics, yes. Yeah.

What is it?

Well, they're exciting too.

Okay.

That's also been a breakthrough. So as I mentioned that before we figured out how to reprogram the body, the best technology and understanding we had were these hallmarks of aging. There were about eight of these, and I mentioned some of them. One of the main ones is senescent cells, which accumulate. So when you get a really bad scratch dvd, when your cells forget what type of cell they are, they can kill themselves. But if they don't kill themselves, they become senescent. So what's senescent? Instead of dying, they just sit there like zombies. And that'd be fine, except they start to secrete these factors that cause other cells that are healthy to grow old and defective. Inflammation is a big problem.

Yeah.

And we think that senescent cells are causing this problem. So senolytics is just a word for drugs that will kill off those cells when they're not dying themselves. And in mice, if you do that, they get rejuvenated and they get younger.

Okay.

I'm thinking through someone listening to this because the typical person in my audience, I think, works out to look better or eats to look better. And I think the next level of consciousness, particularly, unfortunately, I found that anti aging has almost become a space and an area where people with some affluence have been thinking about more than people that are just trying to get through life and improve their stock in life. And I don't like that part of it. And so I know there are people listening to this, going, this sounds good. I can't afford to get metformin. I'm probably not going to take growth hormone, and I'm not sure that I should. Anyway, resveratrol is relatively affordable for most people. You could probably get your hands on that potentially. But if you were to give me two or three, four basic things I could do to begin to reverse the aging process for me would be the caloric restriction. Would it be carbohydrates? What would those few things be if I'm not able to get myself a couple of these medications that I should be putting in my body right away?

Yeah.

Well, so I absolutely agree with you that we can talk about gene therapy for tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars, which is great if you're losing your vision, by the way, but. But these are not available to everybody.

Right.

And I just got back from Africa a few months ago and you know, believe me, there are people in this world that don't care about anti aging.

Sure.

We also don't call it anti aging where I come from, because anti aging is a whole group of people who are working on other things. So we call it longevity research. But if there was one thing you asked me that I could give advice or maybe a few things, the first would be eat less often. There are studies that have been done with my colleagues at the National Institute of Health. They gave mice who have very similar metabolisms to us, very different diets. They wanted to know, is it better to eat more meat or to eat more carbohydrate or more fat? Big debate. And the result blew me away. He found that it wasn't better to eat more meat. He found it wasn't better to eat more fat and it wasn't better to eat more carbohydrate. It wasn't what you ate. All those mice lived a normal lifespan, how much you ate, but the ones that ate it in a small time of day, two hours a day, lived 20% longer.

Wow.

So here's the take home message. Wow. If that's right, it's not so much what you eat, it's when you eat that's important. And so I've gone on a diet where I restrict. When I eat, I try not to eat breakfast, try not to eat lunch. That has made me feel a lot better. I'm sharper. And I think that I'm gonna live longer because of that. That's step one. And in fact, that saves money.

Sure, sure does.

Right, right.

And don't overindulge in anything. Don't just eat all meat, in my view. Don't eat all fat. You want to mix it up, Trick your body. Oh, I'm running out of this. I'm running out of that. And even with Resveratrol, don't have to take it every day. Take it every other day. Tricks your body. Another thing that's cheap. Get off your ass. I typed a book and I think I aged a lot writing this book, actually. But it was worth it. But if you don't get your body into a state of breathlessness or get your muscles to be tired and sore, your body will say, hey, everything's good. I don't need to fight diseases. I don't need to fight aging. Okay, so you lose your breath at least a few times a week. If you can get on a treadmill, I think 40 minutes is great, 10 minutes is good. But anything is better than nothing. What else is good? So what I do when I go to the gym on Sunday with my son.

You go once a week?

Well, I try to go more and I'm on planes a lot, but I have a home gym, so I try to do it, but I don't live a perfect life. It's maybe why I take extra molecules to try and supplement that.

Offset it.

Yeah, yeah. But I'm finishing at work about midnight, so it's.

Yeah. You're in that mega achiever, multiple companies, your lab, all the work you do, children.

You're at that point where.

Yeah. Sometimes your fitness and your nutrition may take a back seat. Right. Which is probably not healthy. One thing you didn't mention, that I'm surprised and I've not heard you talk about this.

What?

About being happier? And I know that's not part of the research necessarily, or maybe it is, but do happy people live longer?

They do. They always do.

Okay, so how come that's not part of what's talked about? Or is it just so anecdotal or silly that it's not discussed? But I would think happier people have less stress in their body, probably less inflammation in their body just by not having that kind of stress.

It's true. True. It's true. But one of the reasons we don't talk about it is that we don't understand why it works.

Okay. Because as a scientist, you have to be able to prove why it works.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's why people didn't regard aging as a disease, which I do. We didn't understand why aging happened, so we said, it's natural, let's not deal with that. But now, like cancer, we understand, we think how it works. You can focus on that now. It's okay to say it's a problem. Happiness, wishy washy. But all of the centenarians, the people that live to 100, they're always happy people.

That's right.

Mind you, if I lived to 100, I'd be pretty happy too, right?

No, there's a good point.

But they've been happy their whole life, and that definitely works. But I haven't been happy my whole life. I'm a lot happier now that I'm 50 because I've learned what a bad day Is. And most days are not bad days, even if you think they're bad. But yeah, early in my life, I was quite depressed, actually.

We talked a little bit that off camera. So let's just go there for a few seconds. I've told you that the thing that surprised me the most, and I just think it should. Here's somebody who's, you know, arguably the best person in the world in their field is doing work that has tremendous meaning. I mean, you. I don't know that you could do work that has more meaning to mankind than what you're doing right now outside of spiritual work. Yet you're not always happy. You haven't always been happy in your life. And I think it's important that people know that because I've told people on my show. The thing that surprised me the most. All these mega achievers, what do they all have in common? Some of it's work ethic, some of it's good fortune, some of it's intellect. But they don't all have those things. The vast majority struggle to some extent with a little bit of their mental health. Do you still. When I met you, when we just embraced, when you first got here, I thought you had an ease and a. Honestly, like an elegance about your personality. This is somebody very comfortable with themselves. But as I've started to watch you more, I wonder if there's this dude in there that's a little bit at battle with himself, that's wondering if he's not moving this at the speed that he should, if his work is not where he would like it to be.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm a perfectionist and an overachiever. I want to leave the world way better than I found it, at least somewhat better. And I find myself in a position of great responsibility. Now I'm at Harvard and I've got this research, so I'm maximizing my day without sacrificing my family as best I can. But early in my career, because I set such a high goal from an early age, ever Since I was 4, I wanted to understand why we age and wake the world up. Why aren't we worried about this? This is not good. We treat cancer, we treat heart disease, we treat frailty, we treat Alzheimer's. But you know, what causes all of those things? Aging. Why don't we care? And so I've always set that goal. And there were stages in my life where I thought I wasn't going to achieve anything. I saw that I was stuck in. I thought I was stuck in Australia. I just finished a PhD. There were no jobs for PhDs who were studying the sex life of a yeast cell. That's what I trained in.

That's awesome.

And I thought, what have I done? I've worked myself into such specialization. I'm not going to change the world. I might make some yeast happier, but that's about it. And being inconsequential is worse than death for me. I want to wake up every day feeling as though I'm going to make a difference.

Being inconsequential is worse than death for you. You know what occurred to me as you were saying it? You know, one of the obligations, responsibilities we all have is to create a life that we want to live longer for. And so for the vast majority of you listening to this, you know, one of the things that is so important about all the things you listen to.

On my show, and particularly today, is.

How about we start creating a life that we can't wait to be around for longer in anticipation of? Hey, it's Ed Mylett.

I just wanted to thank you for.

Being here, and I would ask you to please subscribe to the show. If you just click the subscribe button here, I would really appreciate it. It helps the show grow so we can get even more successful guests on the program to help you. At the same time, if you're subscribed, you're going to get access to the.

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Gets access to them. So if you would click subscribe right here. Thanks so much.

So you talked a minute ago about hormone levels. And so I have been on, and I know what you're gonna say, but I want you to explain your point of view on this to the audience. Full transparency. The audience knows this. I've been on testosterone, some form of testosterone replacement therapy. My gosh, it's gotta be 10 or 15 years. And I know that that testosterone, at least in my case, negatively. We're getting real detailed here, but it can negatively impact hdl, for example. It can suppress hdl, which mine is already genetically pretty low. So there's a danger HDL being your good cholesterol. I know that that's a negative to me taking the testosterone. Having said that, I watch friends of mine that I know that are in their 70s that have been males that have been on testosterone therapy for, say, 20 years. And I compare that visually to somebody like my father who passed away last year. And visually, externally, these guys that were on testosterone look 20 years younger than my dad did. And so this I'm not Arguing with you. But I want to understand it. That's why the first thing I asked you today is if you visually look younger, are you likely to be internally younger? Because visually if you take somebody like a very well known actor that most people know has been open about taking testosterone, who's a friend of mine who makes a lot of like boxing movies and stuff. Right. And so you compare him to my father who was about the same age and visually they really looked like different species almost at that age.

So what are your thoughts about hormone.

Replacement and if you're not for it, which I think you probably aren't, specifically why?

Well, I'm all for keeping your hormones at young levels.

Okay.

I'm all about keeping the body the way it was when it was 20. And however you can do that and it's safe, do that.

Okay.

So I'm on board with hormone replacement therapy for women and men if needed.

Okay. But you think maybe not needed, I'm interrupting you.

Well, that's the point that I have tried my best to find ways in myself to.

So you're 52, you're in that 300 to 700 range of testosterone in your body. You're saying right now your hormone levels are that normal in your 50s without any.

I'm actually naturally higher than an average 20 year old and, but naturally meaning I've worked at it, I've changed things in my diet, I've done things and it's gone.

What are some of those things?

Well, exercise helped building up. I'm not as bulky as you, that's for sure. But, but from my basal state, which was pretty puny, to having some muscle, my quads, mainly big muscles, back muscles as well, doing deadlifts, this kind of stuff. So that helped a lot. Got it up to was around hovering around 500.

Okay.

It's gone close to double that over the last couple of years with changes to my diet, changes with supplements. But I, I didn't actually, I can't tell you scientifically which one of those has contributed, but it's steadily gone up, which, which is good. If it had plummeted, I would have stopped taking X, whatever it was.

Okay.

But it's, I'm happy with these numbers. So it's just under near a thousand now.

My, that's amazing.

It's, it's shock shocking actually because I haven't done anything obvious. You know, you read in online what boost testosterone. I'm not doing a lot of that stuff, so I guess I'm lucky.

So that was one of the genetic good hands you were dealt compared to some of the other stuff that wasn't so favorable. That's because that's unbelievably high for 52 years old.

Yeah, well, so, you know, I want to be helpful practically. So some of the things that I do are. So this fasting has helped. I think that when I started. Well, I don't call it fasting. Eating once a day, one meal a day.

I got you calling it fasting now.

Yeah, that's okay. People know what that is. O M a T a D is the other way to do it, to call it one meal a day, but that seemed to help. And so also giving up a lot of fat and a lot of meat, now, that's not gonna sound good to everybody. I know.

I want them to know.

Yeah. But I think that that's helped. And I did lose weight, and that may have contributed to. I mentioned how much weight I've lost. But here's the thing. I don't think it's a bad thing to supplement at all. I'm not against it. I think what you're doing is perfectly acceptable.

But I heard you say something about burning the candle at both ends. What did you mean by that?

Yeah. So it's. It's an abundant signal. Testosterone is okay. Yeah. Times are good. Build muscle. But then I have to look at the clinical data. And while it won't extend your lifespan, and that's really clear, there have been probably $50 million worth of clinical trials saying that testosterone won't make you live longer. It will help you have more muscle, which will prevent you falling over and breaking your bones, which is a problem for most elderly. So that's good. But there's also not a lot of downside. There's very little, if any, that I've seen. There's not more cancer.

There isn't.

No. So put it this way, it's not going to hurt you. If you feel better and you're stronger and you look better, by all means. And this is why doctors prescribe it. Otherwise there'd be a warning. But is it going to make you live longer? Doesn't look like it. Unfortunately.

One of the challenges, I think, with it is that for most people, if some is good, a whole bunch is better. And what I find with people that start to take hormones is you need to be. I think it can become a form of an addiction and that you're like, well, I'm at 800.

I look like this.

Let me get this thing to 1500 and see what I really look like. And then there are some unhealthy things, your, your hemoglobin levels, things like that that you've mentioned already. There are things that can get out of whack that if you're not, you know, you're really careful with it. So that's some of the stuff. I just wanted to ask you that because it's. It's been very common for women to become on, you know, some form of hormone replacement too. And I've just. In my own case, I'm at my last labs, I was only at 400 with supplementation. And one of the negatives, I think, certainly for me is that my own body has probably made a decision that it doesn't need to work at it anymore or produce it because I've got this exogenous stuff I keep shoving in my body. So I do know that once I've made that commitment, I'm sort of committed for life. So there are some. I'm not prone of it necessarily. I certainly wouldn't recommend starting until you need to, until those levels are lower. And here I am telling you what I propose, which is a really fascinating part of the interview. So we've got that about any of the peptides. So I'm curious about growth hormone. Yay or nay?

Nay.

Nay. Why?

Well, because there's a lot of evidence, both human and mouse, that when you have low amounts of growth hormone, you live longer. And well, again, it's this abundance versus adversity. You'll feel better with growth hormone, you'll heal better, but long term, all the evidence points to the opposite, that having low levels of these growth signals is better for you, tumor wise as well.

This MTOR pathway thing, part of the other part of it is its impact on tumors.

Right.

Is there some relationship between those two things with tumors? And does growth hormone impact the size of a tumor? Is it telling everything in your body to grow, for example? Potentially.

I mean, potentially. But fortunately there's not a lot of evidence that growth hormone does cause cancer. Okay. So I would say that.

But could it cause a cancer in your body to grow potentially?

Well, if you've got one, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's part of the downside of all of these treatments, is that it's all fine until you get a tumor. And then. And then you could actually help the tumor.

Do you feel the way about testosterone or are you saying that about growth hormone or both?

Growth hormone, more testosterone? I think that it's fine.

Okay. I know this is stuff you don't normally get asked. That's why I wanted to go there.

Sure. And then the other thing that I take that I think keeps my. I think at least let's say the evidence points to. I have to speak like a Harvard professor sometimes, is that by activating these other enzymes that are the second component out of those three, the sirtuins I work on, you can activate those by doing the kind of things I do in my life. But I can also take a supplement which raises NAD capital NAD. And people are taking IVs of NAD supplements. It's a big thing. It was discovered in my lab in part about 2002 when I was a kid, but it's now a big thing. And the reason that NAD is popular is that it activates these sirtuins. And we have seven of those in the body. We talked about this last time. The seven sirtuins are the protectors of the body. There are three of them that protect the DNA, and the clock slows down, we think. And then some of them are in mitochondria. There's three there, and then there's one that floats around in between in the water, that's in between all of that. And that's number two. Now, Sirti 2 controls hormone production. And if you give it to cells, they'll make more androgens. And one possibility is the reason my testosterone is doing pretty well is I've got super high NAD levels because I've been supplementing for about seven years now with nmn, which is a precursor to nad.

Stay there. Okay, I want to go there. So that was the next thing on my list was nad. So of the people that I know that look freakishly and unusually young for their age, that I have met in, say, the last 36 months, I cannot get over how many of them have told me that I'm on nad and I'm on metformin. And I'm talking about everywhere from a gym to a golf course to a business meeting. And I'm talking about visually shockingly looking young people, mainly people in their 50s that look like they could be in their 30s or early 40s to me. So when you say nad, do you believe in the IV therapy? Do you believe in the. The stuff you can inject with subcutaneously? Or are you speaking specifically about this precursor that you were referencing?

Well, what I believe doesn't so much matter, but the scientific evidence points to taking a supplement every day. A gram of nmn, which is this precursor, stands for nicotinamide mononucleotide for the aficionados just swallowing one of those or 1000mg is enough to double your NAD levels in the bloodstream and triple it if you take 2 grams. Now I'm 52, so if I'm. If I'm an average human, I would have half the levels of this NAD molecule than a 20 year old. So doubling it is the goal for me. So I've been taking a gram of nmn, swallowing it every day for the last. Whatever it is, dozen years, seven years at least. Then the question is, what about the NAD IVs? There's very little data on that. I would say that I have tried it. I've found that it felt fine, especially afterwards, during it. Have you tried it? I have got a little cramping in the tummy area.

It does, Yes, I found that on the iv. And also I've taken it sub Q and I get a real burning, uncomfortable sensation in my stomach. It's ironic that you say that. It's exactly my experience.

So there's some evidence that it's good for treating addiction, but really no solid scientific evidence that it helps in other ways yet. But that doesn't mean it doesn't help.

It just means that it hasn't been studied enough.

Doctors haven't done enough placebo controls, and it's hard to give people a placebo, especially if they're paying for it. So I would say the jury's still out, but the science I think is there, that it should activate the sirtuins, kick them into action, and at least for those few hours that you're getting it and it'll go up, probably double, triple the levels in your bloodstream. It'll help, but I don't know, long term.

I'm so fascinated by this stuff, as everybody can tell. So you're getting stuff here you don't get most other places, you guys.

So these are just things to think about.

These aren't necessarily recommendations, things to think about. Then there's metformin and so, so just, you know, I must say this to you. You and I met, this is a passion of mine. I've also had a not great genetic hand, by the way. Guys, there's all kinds of stuff we could talk about on genetics today that you can get studied right now to see if you're predisposed to heart disease or different cancers. You can even find out if it came from your mother or your father's side. There's all kinds of things you could figure out right now. My genetic hand is crap. It's just mom and Dad's side and both not good, and both cancers and heart disease. So when I met David originally, this conversation really mattered to me. And so I did start on Metformin. This is just me personally. I'm telling everybody my own medical stuff. I did start on the precursor for nad, and I've tried the IV stuff, and I've tried the sub Q stuff myself. So metformin helps with glucose in the body somehow, the metabolism of glucose. Correct.

So why does that.

But why do you think metformin works? And do you feel real strong like you did last time that you were here about it?

Yeah, I feel even stronger. There's a lot of data from looking at tens of thousands of people that went on Metformin and people who go on metformin who have type 2 diabetes, who normally would live a short lifespan because they have more cardiovascular disease, they're aging faster, they're actually protected from these diseases relatively. And those type 2 diabetics on metformin live longer than people that don't have type 2 diabetes. That's a remarkable observation. And because once you start to study tens of thousands of people, it starts to look real, especially for those people that are predisposed like you are to cardiovascular disease and other issues like cancer there. It's very clear that metformin, on average, protects you against those diseases because it's not just working on keeping your glucose levels down. Remember, it's turning on the mitohormesis and protecting the body through these defense mechanisms. Now, people might be thinking, well, okay, you've got these protective mechanisms, but what are they actually doing to make you healthier? Well, I've mentioned only one of the things they do, which is turning over those old proteins that are either oxidized or have glucose stuck to them. But they do other things. They do protect telomeres when you turn them on, but they do another thing that's really interesting, and that is that they can rejuvenate stem cells. And so you get stem cells protected, and then they can divide, and then they can repopulate the body. Another thing that they do really well, particularly the sirtuins, is that they help repair broken DNA. Anyone who's been in the sun. I was Australian. I've been damaged badly by the sun that ages you. It actually is. We know that damage to DNA accelerates aging. In my lab, we can cause a mouse to be 50% older by doing this process. The sirtuins will slow that down. We had a paper in science in 20002018 that showed that by raising NAD levels, by giving mice NMN, same molecule that I take, their DNA repair systems were much more efficient. And if you damage them with radiation, which we were trying to simulate, space radiation. But it's also similar to cosmic rays that you get if you fly a lot, which I know you do, NMN was protecting those mice from the damage. And you can see the damage. You look in their livers, that was damaged, damage, damage in a normal mouse, and give them nmn. And it wasn't there for the most part. So that's another way it can protect against aging.

So good. So good we're going to keep going because I love this. Any disclaimers on any of this that we've said so far that you would say to somebody who says, I got to get on this metformin or nad? Is there any disclaimer, any downside, anything you would advise them to do just so that I make sure everyone's heard the totality of your thoughts about it?

Yeah.

Well, one disclaimer is I'm actually not a trained physician. I trained physician, but I'm not a trained physician. I'm a PhD who studies molecules. And so there's that. So anytime you want to change something in your body, even if it's diet, but if it's a supplement and of course, a drug, you need your doctor. You want to consult them. So your doctor needs to know everything that's going on in your body, because supplements are sometimes just as powerful as drugs. And if you cannot get. For example. This is a good point I think, to bring up is if you cannot convince your doctor to get metformin, there is an alternative. You know what I'm going to say. It's a plant molecule called Berberine from the Berber plant. And in clinical trials, if you take it at 2 grams a day, it does lower blood glucose, similar to Metformin, and that you can buy on any pharmacy or online.

That's where I began. After we did our interview, I went to my doctor and I said, we're getting on Metformin. And she said, no, we're not. Not right now. Not yet. And so that's where I began. And then after a period of time, she did a little bit more research and agreed. Have you done any reading on MOT C at all?

I've done more than reading.

Okay. What do you know about MOT C?

MOT C? Well, I know the scientists involved, and I helped them start a company.

Come on now.

Really?

Okay.

I'm kind of Embedded in this field.

I know, but this is.

I'm older than you might think. So. MOT C is really interesting. I really like it.

Okay.

I liked it so much I started a company.

Yeah.

So MOT C is a super interesting molecule from, from an academic standpoint and from a physiological standpoint. MOTSI is made not by the DNA, from the DNA in the nucleus, which is most of our chromosomes. It's from the chromosome that's in mitochondria. It's mitochondria because they're like these bacteria, they have their own circular DNA. It's not a chromosome, it's circular. And embedded in that circle piece of DNA in the mitochondria is a little gene called MOTS C. Capital M O T C. And the mitochondria make this little peptide, a little piece of a protein. The peptide is just a small protein that gets leached out into the bloodstream and tells the rest of the body that a certain part of the body is experiencing hormesis. So when you exercise, your body is secreting MOT C into the body. And Motsi is really small. You can synthesize it and you can even get it. I don't know if it's still available in the U.S. but it is, it's in clinical trials right now in this company. It's called cobar C O H B A R. Okay. And it's looking promising as a treatment for fatty liver, but hopefully other age.

Related diseases, maybe even plaque removal and stuff like that. Right. And there's all kinds of fascinating stuff. So I'm so glad that we got a chance to talk about all this stuff today.

Okay.

So some practical stuff just for a second or exciting stuff. Crispr. We talked a little bit about crispr, but this concept, where are we at? Able. Being able to actually alter DNA? Like I've had some friends of mine that are, you know, knew I was going to be talking to you today and they're like, please get like the update. So every. Tell everyone here what CRISPR specifically is. But where are we at on our.

Where right now?

Where are we? And if you were to forecast, say within the next five years, where do you believe we are unable to actually alter DNA that way?

Yeah. Well, right now it's. It's possible to add genes to humans. We've cured. Not we, but scientists and doctors have cured genetic diseases that way. Blind people are seeing again. Yes, but it's only small. It's thousands of people. It's not millions yet, but we are getting better. At it. And eventually, probably in, certainly in this decade, we'll see people being able to add genes to their bodies more commonly. But CRISPR is different. CRISPR is not adding genes. It's actually changing your genetic makeup permanently. And so where we're at is there are some genes or some studies that have shown that it works in humans. You can correct sickle cell anemia and fix that. That one's a little easier because it's in the bloodstream. Trying to fix Alzheimer's with CRISPR is going to be a lot more challenging. The blood is easy to access, and the way we do it is, is we put a CRISPR system, which is an enzyme that you can direct, to change the DNA with a barcode. So our DNA has different letters. There's six feet of this DNA molecule in every cell, and there are these four letters, actg, and they're in different sequence. And what CRISPR does, that's kind of incredible if you think about it, is that you can give it a code that says, go find the sequence. That's A, T, G, C, A, G, C. And it'll find it in billions of combinations in that six foot and go in and just change that.

It is.

It's a barcode. And so I would say in the next five years, it'll be fairly common to fix genetic diseases with crispr. And then things get really interesting when we start to fix things that aren't genetic. Maybe we want to all fix our predisposition to diabetes. We could potentially go in and fix that before we actually get that disease and make up for not having great genetic lineages.

If you put a time horizon on that, what would you think something like that would be?

Well, probably for the healthy people, it's going to take longer. Right. Doctors would rather do no harm than do good. And so that's probably 15 years away from being mainstream. There are other technologies, one called sirna, which is similar, but it actually stops the production of protein rather than changing the genes. It's one step down, and that's being shown. And there's a drug on the market to treat high cholesterol, and even there's a drug for fatty liver. And so increasingly, we're able to change the genetic code or the codes that are coming off the genetic code, which is rna, which we all have heard about because of COVID But, yeah, it's amazing that we can now read the DNA and rewrite it. And in my work, we've just recently figured out how to turn on three embryonic genes in the body. And when we do that, just the right three genes, that resets the age of the tissue and it gets rejuvenated.

Are you kidding me? This is work you're doing right now. So in addition to. I'm just processing all this, I think when we first talked about this, I'm like, yeah, they'll be in there. Like the adding genes thing, they'll do a little of that. But like, to actually alter the genetic sequence of somebody that won't be in my lifetime. And you're saying that you believe that in some form of. That will be in the next 5ish years? We'll be doing that.

Well, there are patients already that have had it done. But for it to be mainstream.

Mainstream, yeah.

Five to 15, depending on the disease. We're more severe the faster the FDA acts.

What are the.

What are you most excited about right now?

Like in your work?

What are you just.

This is the stuff I'm the most excited about right now.

That's easy.

Your face just changed too, by the way, when I asked you.

It's easy.

Yeah.

So we published a year ago on the COVID of Nature magazine, which is the highlight of any scientist's career, that we could reset the age of a complex tissue. We chose the mouse's eye. We let mice get old and blind, and we reprogrammed their eye using these three genes. They're called OS and K for short. And we turned the age back 80% and they were able to see again. And so what we're talking about is having found that there's a reset switch in the body to be young again, and the information in the body to be young is still there. So theoretically, you could take someone who's 100 years old and reset their body to be young again. And the exciting thing is we've been doing clinical trials or pre clinical trials, and there's no apparent downside to this yet.

Oh, my God.

Isn't that great?

That's incredible.

Yeah. And so I went home that day and I said, hey, we've cured blindness. And my family went, yeah, can you just unpack the dishwasher?

That was a sad day.

That's when I knew I could never impress my family. But we had been working ever since we first made this discovery about three years ago. It ended up being in my book, a little bit of it. And it was a thrill to make this discovery. But since then, we've been doing the hard work, which is to figure out, is it safe enough to put into humans? And we're now testing it in non human primates just to see if it's safe.

My gosh.

And if all goes well in the next two years, we'll hopefully cure blindness in people.

That is absolutely freaking incredible.

That is absolutely bananas.

But it gets better.

Okay?

The eye was just something we chose. I didn't think it would work any better in the eye. In fact, I thought it probably worked worse. But we found that there's a universal reset switch. So you can reset different parts of the body, you can reset the skin, we've shown you can reset muscle, you can reset. What have you done? Yeah, the skin was easy using the same genes. So we're just basically turning on an embryonic program in older people or middle aged in their cells and in mice and they get young again. What does this mean? This means one day it's going to be possible to reset the age of the body. We've done that, We've done that in mice. Now the question is, how soon can we get it into ourselves?

That's bananas. Here's the guy that grew up with skeptics all over his house. Let's assume that that's true.

Did everyone just hear what he just.

Said, by the way? That we may be able to reset the age of a human? We've already been able to do this now in other organisms. That's a minute to just process that. Right? And as I process it, I go, wow, that's exciting. I hope I can live long enough.

So that I can reset my clock.

That's the key, right? The stuff we've talked about today, the eating, the exercise. Well, what's the other thing? Hot, cold. These are designed and the supplements to keep us all alive until this technology becomes available. Because it's not just one thing to slow down aging, which we can do pretty easily just by doing these lifestyle changes, but to reset the age. There's a study from UCLA that shows.

Louise, that's crazy.

It gets crazier. There's a study by Steve Horvath and Greg Fahey was published. During the first few months of the pandemic, they treated people for a year with a combination of metformin, a bit of growth hormone and, and DHEA to offset some of the problems with growth hormone that can cause type 2 diabetes. And they found that when they measured the clock of the body, it went back by about two years. And at the time I thought, yeah, okay, two years, that's not a lot. But then I started thinking, if you could do that every year.

Right, right.

That'd Be pretty interesting.

You're literally aging in reverse.

Right?

Right.

And I don't know about immortality. I'd just be happy with an extra 10 years of healthy life, or even two years. But we're at a point now where we're able to control aging pretty easily. In my lab, we can drive aging forwards and backwards in mice at will. Aging is malleable now that we have an understanding of how it's controlled and what causes it. And we even have mini brains in the lab. We can take human cells. So I can take your skin cells. I can make them into stem cells that are pluripotent, meaning I can make anything from you if I wanted to, and this is not kidding, I could make a sperm out of your skin cells and an egg and fertilize that.

So you can clone me?

I could clone you. I won't do that because it's illegal. But biologically, we could do that.

Oh, my gosh.

I'm gonna get all sorts of phone calls. You are?

There we go. I'm gonna get the emails, too.

Hey, can you clone me?

Yeah.

No. But what's important is I can make organs, mini organs, from you and test drugs, and I could. What we're doing in the lab is we have.

Wow. Yeah.

Yeah. Personalized medicine. Yeah. Wow. So when you come to my lab and you have to promise you're going.

To come, I'll show you.

We grow these mini brains in the lab, and we've got them from people that are predisposed to Alzheimer's or not. And we have a way to age those brains so that they're now 80 years old, even though they're only a few months old. And they lose their ability to fire electrically. They become demented in the dish. Little mini brains on Instagram, I've shown some photos of these. They're pretty cute. And so we give them Alzheimer's and dementia in the dish. And then what we do is we have the system to turn on those three embryonic genes, O, S and K, and those brains go back in age. But here's the cool thing. Alzheimer's goes away. They get the electrical activity, comes back. Now, we do this in a mouse. We make the mouse older, just let them age out. Or we accelerate it. And we've been now reversing the age of those brains in the mice. And you can guess what happens. They get their memory ability to learn back.

Unbelievable. Do you hear what you're saying? It's unbelievable.

This is my day job, so it doesn't seem that Exciting, but it is. When I talk about it, it's the most exciting stuff.

Listen, we're in this time where there's all this doom and gloom about our wellness and health and the pandemic and all these other things. And it's stuff to be very cognizant of and pay very close attention to. But right at the same time, I feel like Sergey Young and I were talking about this, too. Who I know you. You know Sergey. And like Sergey as well. It's almost like if you can find a way right now to stay on this planet healthy for the next 10 or 20 years, if you can manage to do that, that there might be an extension of your life at a magnitude of another 20 or 30 potentially healthy years, possibly. And you said 10 earlier, that you just find a way to extend your life. And the finding the way is what we're describing. The hot and cold, the not eating so daggum much. Right. Really getting sure about your glucose and how you process it in your body and taking a look at this metformin and NAD and these other things. And if you can really start to get that stuff together and exercise and eat healthy and put the right food, there may be a completely different world we're living in in a matter of a decade.

Yeah, exactly Right. And already, because technology is changing so fast already, and it's only going to go exponential, every year that you stay alive, you get another three months of life.

Right now.

Right now, stay alive. Because eventually it's going to be. For every year you stay alive, you get another year, and eventually you're going to have negative birthdays.

Come on.

I used to say that this was futuristic.

You did. This is why it has so much credibility with me. You used to say many years ago, this is far off, this is possible. So for you to be the one telling me no, here's the window. That it's possible in probable or possible carries so much credibility.

I've got some of the best scientists working with me on this, not just at Harvard, but in companies who know how to make drugs. So this isn't just, oh, one day it'll happen. There's investors, other investors have jumped in. So Jeff Bezos and others have put large amounts of money, there are billions now to figure this out. So even if I don't make it, God willing, I don't have a heart attack. But if I do, you know, the genie's out of the bottle. This is going to happen. It's just a question of when.

Yeah. What it means to Be. I'm just thinking myself as you're talking, what it means to be a human being. It's going to potentially be very different experience within a decade, what it means. And all of the. Just the pain and suffering so many people have gone through in lives with cancers and heart disease and losing people that are still here to Alzheimer's and things like that, to think about the quality of life. And people ask me all the time. I was just on a call before we did this with a coaching group I have, with all of the stuff going on in the world right now, you know, and I, and I, I told them I'm optimistic. I'm optimistic about humanity, I'm optimistic about life, I'm optimistic about our world. And that's not. Pollyanna. I have reasons to believe it. And, you know, you, my friend, are one of those reasons. I just learned from you and feel so inspired by you. Is there a negative to people living so much longer? I think of things like food supply or things like that. Do you ever think about those things? Like, we got to be really careful here because, you know, there might be an issue we've not factored in. In other words, do other technologies need to be keeping pace if humans are going to live longer?

Yeah. The answer is yes. And that's the subject of my next book, actually. How do we get out of this mess that, that we're in, this mess.

That we're in of living longer and.

Longer, the mess that the world we've created.

Okay, got you.

Of the stress and the bad food around us. Living longer is part of the solution, actually. Okay, so by helping yourself, you actually help save the planet. And that may sound counterintuitive, but let me explain. First of all, there's an economic benefit to living longer. Healthy productivity, spending. The economy is driven by people who are healthy and dragged down by people who are not healthy.

Good point.

And we did the calculations. By we, I mean a couple of brilliant economists in London, and I was just the third wheel. But they calculated that if you could just extend lifespan by one year, let's say everyone went on metformin, who could take it, then the savings in the long run to the US would add up to $86 trillion. If you extend it to a decade, it's 365 trillion with a T dollars. This is more money than you can get by doing anything. You know, save stopping all military spending, which we wouldn't do. But that kind of money can be put towards solving issues like climate change, food supply, and the other Thing that I do and I. I don't often mention this because it's often not the subject that people want to hear about, but I also work on other problems on the planet. I have a company that detects viruses and bacteria, can diagnose anything from your blood. That's just one, but the one that's relevant that you reminded me is actually I wrote a co. Wrote a patent on the plane over here to California from Boston to preserve fruit. And so the same molecules and coatings on fruit that. Well, the same molecules that work in our bodies also work in plants. In fact, plants make most of these molecules that we ingest. It's one of the reasons I eat stressed, stressed out plants, because they make these molecules. Long story short, I'm hoping to extend the shelf life of fruit around the world. And there's a huge amount of fruit and vegetables that are thrown away every day.

Parishes.

Yeah.

You're remarkable, brother.

Is there something that keeps you up.

At night that you worry about?

I don't get kept up at night worrying. I get kept up at night working and talking to people. I do worry a bit that I'm not going to achieve my life's goal, which is to have a medicine that helps millions of people. That would satisfy me. I don't care about prizes and all that stuff that doesn't, you know, I've won a few and it doesn't do anything. You know, what I'm hoping for is for a little vial of a drug, some medicine that saves millions of lives, and then honestly, I'll be happy. And I'm guided by a mentor of mine, Philip Sharp, who is at mit and he actually literally won a Nobel Prize. Does he have his Nobel Prize on the wall? No, he has a little vial of the drug that he made and that's what he tells me is important to him.

That's so good, David. Okay, a couple more things. Is there any other additional. I'm just processing what we've talked about today. I feel so good that you are here. I want to just say this to you. I always learn when you're around me. And I feel more optimistic with evidence based, in fact, of why I feel more optimistic. And I'm grateful that I get to share the conversation today with millions of people that listen to the show. There are some shows when I do them and I'm in the midst of doing them and I'm like, I'm so grateful for this experience. And that's now twice with you. And I just want to acknowledge that with You. Is there any other gift you'd want to give the audience of, hey, here's another supplement or tip or something that could extend the quality or length of one's life? Is there something we haven't covered that you would just add to what we've talked about? Anything even related to mental health or anything like that?

Yeah, well, there are a couple of things. Mental health is very important to me as well. I, I've learned to reduce stress. Don't worry about the little things. Think about, will this matter in five, ten years? I know you're very good at this. I listen to you as well. I'm, I'm grateful to you as well and the ability to cope with pressure. Yeah, I was a very nervous kid. And in my 20s and in my 30s, getting a job at Harvard was pretty scary. In my 40s and now in my 50s, I'm a relatively calm guy. And you have to work at it. It doesn't come naturally. Some breathing. I'm more recently now trying meditation at night just for a little bit, just for 15 minutes or so a day. But I find that I can even get by with less sleep. I have what's a helmet and headset that helps me. I'm not very good at meditation because my mind is everywhere.

Imagine.

But it's called Brain Tap and I have no connection to them, but I like it. Braintap is a, is, has headphones, you listen to calming music and it's shining light in your eyes at frequencies that get you to calm down. So mental health, very important because if you're always overly stressed, a little bit of agitation is good. Right. Gets us going. But if you have cortisol coursing through your veins, it will accelerate aging. Okay. The other thing is, I'm working on democratizing another type of test for age, which is your true biological age, which is measuring the chemicals that are on DNA that actually determine biologically how old you are. And it starts at conception and it ticks away even when you're young. And I can basically take a blood test or a cheek swab from you or anybody and predict how old you are, but also when you might die if you don't change your life. And what I want to do is give everybody the equivalent of their credit score and help them improve their credit score. Right. So you got this number. And here's what we think you should do, given everything we know about you. And that way just coach millions of people into a healthier, longer life. We do have a sign up, so that's my gift you can get. So we're developing this test, and it's going to be a lot cheaper than anything. We've just filed a patent that brings the cost down by a couple of orders of magnitude. The website is called tallyhealth.com so get on that list and I'll contact you and we'll see. So tallyhealth.com and that's the latest spin out from my lab. But I think that in the same way medicine will help millions of people five, ten years from now, this will be soon. And, and that, you know, this coaching that, that we do. I, I love touching people's lives now. Not just saying, oh, in five years, get. I'll get back.

Sam.