The Gottman Doctors: Women Tend to Be More Unhappily Married & Non-Cuddlers Have an Awful Sex Life!

Women tend to be more unhappily married than men.

And 80% of the time, women bring up problems in a relationship.

But 69% of all problems are not solvable.

So if you rely on problems getting solved as an indicator of the success of the relationship, it's not going to look good.

Dr. John and Dr. Julie Gottman, world.

Renowned researchers and clinical psychologists who've been married 36 years and have spent the last 50 years. 50 years studying love.

You made something called the Love Lab. What is that?

We followed 3,000 couples.

It taught us the difference between what masters of relationship do and what disasters do.

What advice would you give to me then?

Cuddle. 96% of non cuddlers had an awful sex life.

Anything else?

Yes. The hookup culture is thriving.

Is that a problem?

Yes.

Why?

Okay, so let me point out something that everybody needs to hear.

And also, kissing is very powerful. Men who kiss their wives goodbye when they leave for work live four years longer than men who don't.

In your research, you found that during conflict, couples who show four key behaviors mean that an argument is doomed.

Yes. And they are. Criticism, defensiveness. The third one was the worst, and that was. That was the best predictor of relationship breakup. And the fourth was John.

Julie, can you role play the behavior that a couple who are destined to fail would exhibit?

Oh, yes. So.

It'S absolutely crazy to me that so many of you have decided to watch our show and so many of you have decided to subscribe to our show. We now have 5 million subscribers on YouTube, which is a number that I just can't comprehend, and it's a dream that I absolutely never could have had. We started the Diary of a CEO just over three years ago now, and in my wildest expectations, we might have had 100,000 subscribers by now. So you can imagine how shocked I am that so many of you have chosen to tune into these conversations every week and spend some time with us. So thank you. And I made a deal with you. I made a deal that if you subscribe to this show, that we would continue to raise the bar. And in 2024, we're going to raise the bar like never before. I've been working for the last nine months on a surprise for all of you that have subscribed to this show, and I'm very excited to deliver that for you. The production is going to change. We're going to go even further with our guests, and we're going to tell even more global stories. So as always, if you appreciate what we're doing here? The simple free favor I'll ask from you is to hit the subscribe button. Let's get on with the episode. John, Julie, you've both been studying the subject of love for more than 50 years. You've written books, you've done a lot of primary research. You run something called the Love Lab. I'm going to start with you, Julie. What is the mission that you're on and why love?

That is the most wonderful question in the universe. Here's why. We have a world, as we all know, that is full of conflict, is full of antipathy, is full of violence, domestic violence, all kinds of clashes between people. And we wanted to focus on love because love is the great healer, right? It heals people's hearts, it heals people's souls. It brings people together, it unifies people. But nobody has taken Relationships 101. Nobody knows how to have productive relationships that are calm and gentle and compassionate. And at the beginning of the research, we had no idea of what successful couples did to really solidify their relationship and sustain it. So John and his wonderful colleague, Robert Levinson did some of that earliest research that taught us the difference between what masters of relationship do and what disasters do so we could help as many people as possible.

And, John, the same question for you. With all the work that you've done in your life, what is it that you're seeking to deliver to the person that consumes that work? What is it you're seeking to do for them?

Well, Bob and I started studying relationships because we were so incompetent at it. And we were just two clueless guys going from one relationship disaster to another. And we were really curious about whether there were people out there who could do it well. And we found there were. And then we thought, how were they different from people who, like us, really went from one disaster to another? And we had no idea. We really had very few hypotheses when we started. So it was just curiosity. And we weren't interested in helping anybody at all. We were just curious about finding out what the differences were. And then 26 years ago, Julia and I decided to work together. And she's a clinical psychologist, and she wants to help people. And I thought it was impossible to change relationships because if you can predict with such high accuracy that a relationship is doomed or it works, how can you change it? You know, it seemed impossible, but Julie's really an optimist and really cares about people. And so we got together and we thought, well, we need a theory if we're Going to help people because every relationship is different. And so first we built a theory and then we tested it. So that's how I got into it, really. I didn't have a mission.

So how did you both come to study and work together on the subject of love in particular?

Well, John had already been studying it, right. So we met, what, almost 38 years ago. And what happened is that I'd be coming home talking about my clinical cases over dinner, would come home from the lab and be sharing the statistics and the findings he had that were really thrilling. And after a while, he was garnering such incredible information, such great knowledge, that one day we were out in the middle of the sea canoeing, and I said, honey, let's take this stuff out of the ivory tower. Let's form theory and interventions based on what these successful couples are doing to really sustain their love. It's such a beautiful thing. We see. And he said, sure, why not? And we did.

And John, what was that research?

Well, you know, Bob and I found that there really were masters of relationships. And we spent a dozen years studying gay and lesbian couples, too. Same thing there. There were people who knew how to have relationships, and they were very different from the couples who were struggling. And most of the clinical books have been written by therapists who never saw the good relationships. And so we had information that was very new and it was pretty fascinating. But the question was, could we actually turn a disaster into a master? Could we prevent relationship disaster? We didn't know. So it was kind of a question. Was it just correlation or were the findings causal? And so it was really curiosity that continued.

And how many research papers have you published now?

A couple of hundred, I think.

And how many books between you have you written, Julie?

I think we're on 52 maybe.

How many couples have you studied, John?

Well, our latest study involved over 40,000 couples looking at their questionnaires and couples about to start therapy, but following couples in the lab that the kind of lab that Bob Levinson and I created, about 3,000 couples. And Bob studied a group of couples for 20 years, the same group of couples in their 40s or in their 60s when they started the study. And he actually was able to get funding for 20 years. So the group of couples in the 40s were now in their 60s, and he could compare them to the couples 20 years ago who were in their 60s. So it wound up being, you know, a 40 year longitudinal study.

Has anyone ever studied couples for that length of time?

No, not really. It really was a first when People.

Think about the subject of love. I don't think they necessarily hold it in such high importance in their life. They think about other things, especially as it correlates to our health outcomes. So, like, you know, my physical health outcomes, are they right in deprioritizing love as a path to having good physical health, or does our love and relationships correlate to our physical health, our chance of disease, all these kinds of things.

There's a new field that started kind of when I started doing my research, and it's called social epidemiology. A guy named Leonard Symes started at Berkeley with his student Lisa Berkman, and they did this study called the Alameda County Study, where they studied 9,000 people. And Syme was interested in diet, he was interested in cholesterol. And he found that Chinese American immigrants just lived a lot longer and were a lot healthier than Americans were, even Chinese American immigrants. So he was kind of curious about, you know, what really was the difference? Was it the diet? Was it? And he found it was really community. It was really that these people move with their friends. And he found in general that the quality of people's closest relationships really predicted longevity. Very strong prediction, too. So it's become a whole field called social epidemiology. And people have studied the immune system and, you know, found that all over the planet, people who are socially isolated, who have bad relationships, don't live as long, they get sick and die a lot younger. And that people have great relationships, they live a lot longer, and the quality of their life is better, they're a lot happier. And so it seems to make a real big difference. Modern social psychology has been finding the same thing with people's relationships to strangers, that that affects health. So if you reach out to strangers and. And in the morning, if you're commuting, having a conversation with the commuter next to you, then you're open to learning about their lives. That also affects your health and longevity. So we're really a very social species.

It's interesting because we spend a lot of time going to the gym or thinking about our diet or something. But what you're saying, and I think what a lot of your work has uncovered, is that we should be investing in the same way in relationships, in a really intentional way. And especially when we consider the nature of the world now, where we're getting lonelier and more detached than ever before. No one taught me at any point in my life to think of my relationships like the gym.

Yeah, right.

What's your take on that, Julie?

Well, being a gym buff myself, I love going to the gym. But one thing that I'm really remembering is that people whose parents divorced tip typically they live four years less on average than people who grew up with an intact family. People who grew up with divorce and then ended up divorcing themselves, their own relationships, divorcing, lived eight years less. So you can see how important love is. And we're beginning to understand all of this by looking at things like oxtobiology, serotonin versus things like adrenaline and cortisol, which are stress hormones that will flood the body and stress the body when we're in a bad relationship.

You made something called the Love Lab. Very curious name, place I think I'd like to go. What is the Love Lab, John?

Well, it got named that by the BBC when they did a show on our newlywed study. But it was, it was basically an apartment like setting. And couple spent 24 hours there. And the cameras were rolling the whole time they were awake. And, and like Bob and I did, we synchronized physiological data to the video timecode so we could, you know, see what was what they were doing, what they were saying to one another, and at the same time be able to look at their heart rates and their blood velocity and things like that. And we measured other physiological things and immune variables as well. So that was basically the lab. And we followed couples a couple of months after the wedding, many of them as they got pregnant and had babies. I learned how to study parent infant interaction from some of my friends who were experts in that field. And we followed the children as they got older. So that was kind of the lab. It was just to see whether there was any predictability in relationships if we weren't telling people what to talk about, just watching them as they might normally go about a typical day.

So let me get this straight. You have these people come to this sort of normal setting, kind of like an apartment, but it's really a laboratory where they're being studied for their physiological biomarkers of, I don't know, heart rate, things like that. You just watch them.

Well, they're being videotaped, right? And that videotape then afterwards is analyzed hundredth of a second by hundredth of a second, corresponding also to their physiological measures. And we're analyzing all of that tape in terms of the content of what they're saying, what they're body movements are, what their facial expressions are, what emotions are they expressing, how are they expressing those emotions, if any, are they responding to each other's bids for connection. We looked at so much data and it was a goldmine. It taught us so much not only about the best way for couples to manage conflict, but even more important, how do couples create a deeper friendship with one another? And by then we'd already known that friendship in a relationship also helps create more passion and good sex in a long lasting relationship. So there was so much for us to learn.

It was exciting going into that study at the Love Lab. What were the sort of big things that you discovered afterwards that are misconceptions about relationships? So, you know, I can think of a couple off the top of my head, but you'll know them better. What are the big misconceptions that you discovered from that? I'll start with you, Julie.

A lot of people think that sustaining a good relationship takes huge effort. You know, takes really figuring out things like active listening. Where if you say to me, Stephen, you know, I am really angry because you keep leaving the lid off the toothpaste. What's the matter with you? And, and how do I respond to that? Well, we would learn that criticism, for example, you always, you never. Those are criticisms didn't work to manage conflict. On the other hand, what we also saw is that when somebody made a little tiny bid for connection, for example, there was a big window in this apartment looking out the window and saying, oh my God, there's a beautiful bird in the tree. What does your partner do? This proved to be incredibly important. Does your partner either turn against you by saying, stop interrupting me, I'm trying to read, or ignore you completely, which is silence, not paying attention, or look out the window too and say, huh, cool. That's all it took to create a better friendship for a couple. And we found that the couples who were successful in the long haul turned towards each other's little bits for connection. 85% of the time. The couples who ended up splitting up unhappy divorced 33% of the time. So listen to that difference just between saying uh huh and saying nothing.

Let's start there. Then. I am, I think I am guilty of being very, very bad at responding positively to bids for connection from my partner. This is actually one of the central issues that we've struggled with over the last couple of months is my partner will come home. Usually I'm coming home. She's already home just before me. And I'm still, I've still got my work brain on. I'm thinking about work. I rush into the living room sometimes I' like say hello to her. Then I'll go on My laptop, and I start working, and she comes over and says something to me. And because I'm focused on my work, I either acknowledge her, but without turning my head, or sometimes I'll just go, one sec, babe, I'm busy. Or say something. Words to that effect.

Right.

It's clearly causing a problem.

I'm guilty of the same thing. I was working on a book and Julie said, you know, I go into the living room and sit down, and you don't even look up. And I sit there for a while and then I get up and leave. And you haven't even noticed that I was there. So I was guilty of it too. Turning away. And we worked on it.

We did work on it. The other thing too, though, with John and I've. I've learned to accept this, right, over time, is that John grew up in a little teeny weeny apartment as a refugee in New York City. And it was loud and noisy and there were a lot of people all around, so he had to develop this incredible sense of concentration. And so when I first met you, it was so funny. John. I would be across the kitchen counter from John. He would be reading a book. He wouldn't even be on his computer, be reading a book. And I would say, john, John. Hey, John. And I would wave my hand and finally he would say, oh, yeah.

I really didn't hear it.

He didn't hear it. I mean, literally. And I had to understand that with that kind of concentration, he really didn't hear me.

How did it make you feel?

How did it make me feel? At first, it made me feel invisible, unimportant, unloved, loved, rejected, alone. You know, it made me feel all kinds of stuff until I understood. Wait a minute. There's something in his brain that's very different than my brain because I'm always, you know, I have no skin. I'm, like, super aware of everything around me.

Okay, so, John, give me some advice then, from your studies in the love lab. If my partner makes a bid for connection.

Yeah.

What are the ways that people typically respond and how should I respond? When you look to the couples that were most successful over the long term, how do they respond? How should I respond? Give me some advice.

Yeah. I think the really great relationships have this motto that when their partner is upset, you just stop everything you're doing and listen. And I keep a notebook in my back pocket just for that purpose. So if Julie says, we need to talk, I whip out my notebook and my pen and I say, okay, I'm taking notes. So I'm ready to listen to her. And, you know, it's true that sometimes I'm oblivious to what's going on around me, but, you know, I. I become much more aware. So when she comes into the living room now, I. I stop what I'm doing, close the computer and say, how you doing? What's on your mind?

My issue is with that is I work in the living room sometimes. So what's the balance between me being able to work in the living room, work in, like a public home space.

Right.

Without being interrupted, while also not rejecting my partner accidentally or, you know, low key intentionally?

I think the solution is to create a ritual around connection, you know, so if she, if she really needs to talk to you, she can, you know, give you a signal that it's important for her to connect with you. And then it's not always happening, you know, it's just happening when it's important. And Julie's like that too. So she'll, you know, she'll come in and she won't sit there and, and just wait for me to respond. She'll actually go, we need to talk. And then I know I get my notebook out.

But let me point out something, though, honey, you're talking only about if I'm upset about something. So I have to work in the living room also of our house, or John may be working in the living room. And if he's working on something and I want his attention, I may ask him, can I have your attention for a moment? So I need to say what I need to him, and if it's something that's trivial and he says, just a minute, you know, I'm working on an email or whatever. Okay, that's fine. You know, our timing is not gonna be identical. He's not gonna be available necessarily all the time I want to talk to him. I won't be either. Right. And so we try to inquire of one another, is this a good time for us to talk?

And there's some times when it's not a good time for you to talk, John.

Of course. Of course.

That's where I think I've struggled, because sometimes I feel like this is not a good time to talk, and I express that. And I think maybe the way that I'm expressing it isn't soft enough.

Maybe I'm, you know, Let me give you one of my favorite things to say, okay? Which is, honey, I would really love to listen to you right now, but I really am feeling pressured to finish this, so can you just wait however amount of time, you know, 30 minutes or an hour, and then I'll be able to give you my full attention. See that? I want to listen to you. That's the key phrase that tells your partner, I value you, I love you, but there's pressure on me right now too. So please be understanding and I'll be there for you as soon as I can be.

You know, in the love lab, when you saw these couples who were missing bids for connection. So for the example you gave Julie, of someone looking out the window and saying, babe, come and look at this. And then the other person either ignores it or kind of dismisses it. Was that individual who dismissed it or ignored it, John, Were they doing that intentionally? Did they. Was it a build up of something that's caused them to sort of passively reject the person? Or was it they were just oblivious?

Yeah, it's really hard to know. I mean, the one thing I can tell you was the person who got turned away from kind of crumples a little bit. So regardless of the reason for the turning away, if it's really habitual, that person making a bid really gets hurt by the turning away. And. And that, I think, leads people to stop bidding, you know, to think, you know, what's the point?

And then what happens?

Well, then they. They just create this emotional distance.

Yeah.

And put up walls.

And then what happens?

And then what happens is that they become lonely.

And then what happens?

Quite often unfair.

Oh, they cheat or they.

Okay, yeah, eventually.

And it all starts with missing a bid for connection potentially. And that becoming a habit.

Many of them. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I like to use the metaphor of a sea anemone. You know what that's like, Right. It's a little sea creature in a tidal pool that has all these little fingers, all these little fingers. So it may be relaxing those fingers and opening up and revealing its underbelly, but when somebody refuses a bid for connection, it's as if that little sea anemone has been poked right in the stomach. And so all the fingers close up and shut down and lock down. And it takes a much longer time for that anemone to unfold its fingers again and be open.

Yeah, it's not safe.

Did you ever find, and I think this is something that I've talked about before within my relationship, that sometimes when I miss a bid for connection, it increases the amounts of bids for connection? Because I think I'm guessing that I'm a bit of an avoidant type, based on my history, my childhood She's a little bit more of an anxious type. So it seems to be the case that if I say, not now, babe, I'm working, then the amount of bids increase and they start to become, in my opinion, and I could be well wrong here. They're not. They're not actually. There's not actually something out the window. Now it becomes more about trying to confirm whether it's a test.

Right?

It's a test.

Yeah.

It feels like a test.

Yeah. Right, right.

But also what it is when, especially when there isn't something outside the window, is very pure and simple. I need to connect with you. I need to feel that connection. Sure. I can imagine it. I can remember it from, you know, three hours ago. But right now, I'm feeling that kind of little stirring inside of me, that need, and I want to connect with you. I just need that connection. So she's attempting to create that.

What is this attune framework, John? Attune awareness. Turning toward tolerance, understanding, non defensive, empathetic. What is this framework?

Yeah, attunement is really, you know, it's like two musical instruments that really are attuned to one another, and when one plays, the other resonates. So creating rituals of connection, you know, like we have a ritual every morning, and I'll say, I'll ask Julie, you know, what's on your plate today? What's your day look like? And she'll say, what does your day look like? So we kind of check in with each other, and then at dinner, we have another ritual of connection. You know, how was your day? You know, what happened? How did that session go? And we kind of keep in touch with each other with these structured ways of attuning. And that way you don't lose touch, you don't make assumptions. When we ask each other questions like, what can I do this week to make you feel loved? And when you have that kind of ritual, then you know, you're connecting. And you're like those two instruments that are tuned to each other.

May I add a little to that? Empathy is super, super important. And I honestly believe that empathy is probably the most powerful tool we have to really create connection with one another. So if our partner is saying to us, I'm really upset right now. I'm really angry that I'm doing all the housework. Can you attune to that? Can you say, first of all, tell me more. What is making that a burden for you? So you're pulling information out, and then your partner might be saying, well, it's like the second shift for me. I'm at work all day, and then I have to come home and clean the house, et cetera. So I want to share that with you. Okay? Can you empathize with her? Can you say, ah, no wonder. You're probably pretty tired when you come home, right? So you really do need my support. Is that what you're trying to tell me? Mm. That's the attunement.

You see, I was gonna say it's quite difficult, isn't it? Because it often sounds like blame.

Here's the difference. There's a big difference. And this is what we saw in the lab also. It is blame when there's a lot of you in what your partner is saying. For example, you never clean up the kitchen. You are too lazy to do any housework at the end of the day. What about me? You know, et cetera. So with that kind of blaming and criticism, nobody, Nobody is going to feel like, oh, you're absolutely right. You're really mad at me because I've been a schmuck and I. I haven't been helping you with the housework. And that's what you're telling me. No. What people have to do when they're unhappy about something is describe themselves. I'm upset that. What's the situation? Describe the situation. I'm upset that the kitchen is a mess. Okay. That the kitchen is a mess as a situation. It's not saying you're a bad person. You see? And then step three, they need to say what their positive need is, which means, how can your partner shine for you? Don't tell them what they're not doing right or what you resent. Flip that on its head and say, I would love it if you would help me tonight with the dishes.

My partner did that yesterday, actually. She and I. I noticed that she did it. So basically, she's in Costa Rica right now doing a retreat, and she sent me a text saying, babe, I love it when you tell me how the podcast went after you finish recording it. Now, there's several ways that someone could have said that. She could have said, I hate it when you don't tell me, for example.

That's right.

But she said, I love it when you tell me. What she's telling me is to do it more. And I felt it to be really motivating, that I'll do it more. So I started doing it more. I started telling her, sending her voice notes after the podcast. But I've also seen it in relationships where it's framed it's trying to get the same outcome, but it's framed in the opposite way. It's negative. I suddenly feel like I'm on the back foot and I've done something wrong, and I'm a child being told off by my mother or something.

Right, Exactly. And what is your first response to that?

Defensiveness? Deny it, Throw it back on them.

Exactly. Yep. And that's one of the predictors. You know, a smaller predictor, but still a predictor of relationship unhappiness.

Why does typical couples therapy fail, John, in your opinion?

Well, you know, it's not failing very much anymore. There are some very good approaches now, some behavioral approaches that are working pretty well, and emotionally focused therapy is working much better. So things have improved. But I think typically, the reason that it fails is that the therapist doesn't really have the proper tools for either assessing a relationship. And most therapists don't do any assessment. When a couple comes in, they don't look for, you know, what are the strengths in this relationship, and what do I not need to work on? And what are the challenges that I really need to work on? And not only don't they typically assess, but once. Once they start working with a couple, they don't really have the tools.

Because I heard with therapy, it's all about listening. And the stat I'm citing here is that traditional couples therapy only had a 35 to 50% success rate.

Right.

And you typically think of therapy like you go there and your job is just to listen to your partner as they tell you what's wrong.

Yeah.

Why doesn't that work?

Because they're telling you typically what's wrong with you. And the therapist isn't stopping them, isn't saying. That's criticism. That's not gonna work. That is gonna sabotage you getting listened to. So try this instead. Try telling your partner what you feel and what you need instead of describing your partner and what's wrong with him.

I actually saw at a conference, I'm not making this up. Somebody was training therapists, and this therapist that was doing the training played a videotape in which a husband said to his wife, you know, Sheila, you're such a. You only think about yourself. And the therapist said, sheila, can you summarize and reflect back what Harry just said and empathize with him? I thought, God, you know, what an idiot. I mean, nobody can empathize with insult and put downs. You know, why isn't she constraining the way Harry's talking to Sheila? Not just Sheila listening. So I think a lot of times therapists really don't know how to use a tool. They don't know what really is appropriate, what a good relationship looks like.

What a good relationship looks like. I'm really keen to understand the principles of what successful couples do. From your research, you've highlighted a few of those things. I mean, you've got the seven principles of successful marriage. What are some of the most important of those principles?

First of all, we call the first principle building love Maps. You need to keep asking your partner open ended questions to know who they are. Open ended questions are questions like, so what characteristic would you like to pass down from your family to our child? Or what would be your ideal way of celebrating Ramadan or Christmas or whatever holiday? So you're asking your partner questions with answers that have paragraphs, not a one word answer, in order to keep in touch with who your partner is, what their values are, what their priorities are, what their needs are, what their feelings are. Because those change over time as you're together. Turning toward, we talked about that was super important. Expressing fondness and admiration is very important. So you can feel love. And if you don't tell your partner you love them or express it with touch, which is incredibly important, then your partner may not be all that sure that you still do love them five years down the road. Of course, managing conflict is incredibly important and that's where we've probably done our most significant work. But in addition to that, it's honoring each other's dreams. Dreams meaning, what are your hopes and aspirations for the future? They're not going to be compatible, they're not necessarily going to be identical. It doesn't matter. Can you support your partner in realizing their own dream and fulfilling that and finally creating shared meaning? Which means every one of us is a philosopher. We have our own ideas about what our purpose in life is. Well, do you tell your partner what that is for you? And do you hear that from your partner? That's the sharing that's needed and the weight bearing walls and trust and commitment, of course. So trust builds over time and trust is essentially answering the question, will you be there for me in all kinds of different situations? Will you be there for me when I'm sick, when I'm depressed, when I want to celebrate a success, when I'm frustrated? Will you be there for me? And nobody will be Perfectly. But the more the better. So that's trust and commitment, of course, is, are you letting your partner know that this relationship is your journey for life? You are here for life, not for, you know, the next three weeks, and then you'll think about it again.

Why is having expressed dreams so important? Because I often think that about sort of my relationship. I think our dreams are not the same. They're very different. And sometimes I wonder, and I've wondered, and I think we've both wondered in my relationship whether that is a big, big issue, if it matters. But why is it so important to express your dreams to your partner? And do they have to be aligned?

Okay, number one, they don't have to be aligned. That's one of the big myths of all time. You have to be compatible. You have to have the same dreams, the same passions, the same interests. Wrong, wrong, wrong. That's not true. In fact, oftentimes we're attracted to people who are different from us.

What happens when the dreams are in conflict, though? So if one partner's dream is to live in Australia and the other partner's dream is to live on, I don't know, America.

You know, there are certain situations where one person's dream is the other person's nightmare and they really don't have a compromise that's possible. So the one you described, I had a couple like that where she lived in Switzerland, he lived in Uganda. She had an autistic son. And that autistic son needed desperately a very good support system to help him cope with the differences that he lived with every day. So she wanted to stay in Switzerland. He worked for the government in Uganda. He was making a contribution there. He did not want to move to Switzerland. And she knew she wouldn't get the support for her son in Uganda. So they had incompatible, totally incompatible dreams. But there was no compromise here. So they ended up breaking up. But they knew why they were breaking up, and it was for good reason.

Are some problems solvable then and some problems not solvable?

Yeah, it turns out 69% of all problems are not solvable. They just, you know, we're not attracted to people who are like us. And then once we get together, we find those differences, although initially very attractive, pretty annoying, you know, so it's really great that he's so spontaneous, but then why can't he ever stick to a plan, you know? And that becomes a source of irritation. And unless people can really be enriched by those differences and learn to accept the differences, they're going to be in a lot of trouble. So when we looked at over time, at what people thought about, it was 69% of the time it was the.

Same issues and what you call Those perpetual problems.

Perpetual problems. Yeah. And once you pick somebody to have a relationship with, you've automatically inherited the problems you'll have for the next 50 years.

These are problems you can't solve, really.

But you can adapt to them and.

Laugh about them and compromise around the edges.

Okay, so what's an example of a perpetual problem in your relationship?

Oh, my God. Okay, so John, first of all, he's wearing, you know, a Jewish yarmulke. He thinks this is a halo, right? So, you know, he's. I'm always innocent. He's always innocent. Okay? So he calls me obsessively, compulsively, neurotically tidy. And he is charmingly sloppy. Okay? So we have a huge difference. And so here's how we've coped with it. Because environment is not. Is just not important for him. And for me, it's super important. It will disorganize my mind if my environment is disorganized. So when things start to get to me, there's too much mess, too many papers, books. I can't make the bed because I'm trying to lean over a four foot tall pile of books. And I may break my neck if I try to make the bed. So it gets to that point. And then I'll say to him, honey, I really need you to please clean up the books in the bedroom. He'll say, okay, then he won't do it. Then I'll ask the next week. I'll say, honey, it's, you know, I'm really wanting you to clean this up, please. He said, okay, I will. But then he has to, I don't know, do something else so it doesn't happen. Week three, I say to him, okay, honey, I've said this now twice. I'm starting to get annoyed. He'll say, oh, okay, all right, I'll figure out when I can do it. Week four, we're counting down. I say, okay, we've crossed the threshold. I'm now angry. I really need you to clean up the books now, please. And I become a pushy Jewish broad. That's what happens. And he goes, oh. And he says, okay, okay, because I'm bigger than he is and I had two older brothers and I'm really good at wrestling and stuff. And so I clean it up. He cleans it up really fast. It's pristine. It's beautiful. I savor it. Then it starts over again.

So how do we. Is that the pathway to dealing with perpetual problems is you just have to again accept them, that it's Going to.

So here's the deal with perpetual problems. We have a method for compromise. We call it the bagel method, or maybe the donut method, depending on your culture. Okay? So in an inner circle, you think about or you write down, what can you not compromise on in terms of your position? Your position on this issue? What can you not. It would be like giving up the bones of your body or that core dream you have that is so central to your identity that you gotta hold onto that. Then in an outer circle, you write down what you're more flexible about. And those are typically when something will happen, who will do it, where it will happen, how much will it cost, how long will it last, those nitty gritty details. You share what you've written down in both circles with your partner, and you look at the flexible areas around each of your positions on the issue, and you try to reach a compromise regarding those flexible points of view while still honoring each other's inner core dream or core need.

But you must want to change that about John, right? You must want to change.

Of course I want to change it. But you know what? John wouldn't be John if he was a tidy, neat guy. And after a time, it's just adorable. It's funny. And we have such a wonderful relationship that it's hilarious and it's predictable.

You need to talk about gridlocked, perpetual problems. That's a whole different story.

That's a different story. So gridlock is when you cannot dialogue about something because you hold so fast to your own position on the issue that you really want to win this battle. It's not a matter of compromise. You know, you're right, you want to win, and the other person feels the same way. Then what? You try to talk without really listening to one another and understanding at a much deeper level, which is part of our work, what really constitutes our partner's position, why they are holding that position so strongly. And with your understanding comes more compassion. If you don't have that understanding, if you're trying to win, you get gridlocked to the point where every fight escalates to the ceiling. You end up yelling or you shut down, shove it under the rug, but you can feel it as you walk around the living room.

This is. I mean, this is one of the big problems in relationships, John, is that we often feel like our partner's trying to change us in ways that we don't want to be changed.

That's right.

And I often. I've been in a relationship before, past relationship, where my Partner would say things that were an attempt to change me, but in doing so, she was actually telling me that she didn't think I was good enough.

Right.

Oh, you see what I'm saying?

Yeah, sure. Well, that's the nature of gridlock conflict. And part of what we've done is invent six questions that 87% of the time work to get people out of gridlock, where they're asking these questions about, what does this feel like? What does this conversation feel like to you? What is it that you think I'm trying to change about you and that I don't think is good enough? Tell me how that feels, and what's your ideal dream of how we should talk about things? And where does that come from? And where is it that you feel unaccepted by me? So if you can have that conversation, a lot of times you develop this sense of understanding, and then you can compromise about the gridlock issue.

One of the recurring things I've had in relationships is I'm very involved with technology in my work. So sometimes it's felt in relationships that I've had that the person is trying to take my work away from me. So because they're always complaining that I'm on my phone or I'm on my laptop or whatever I'm thinking, like they. They're trying to change me in a way that I'm unwilling to change. I'm not. I love my work. I want to. I want that to be a big part of my life. How do I go about solving for that?

And that person wants you to do away with the technology some of the time, right?

That's how it feels?

Yeah, that's how it feels. Okay, so you need to have a conversation where each of you interviews the other person and asks six questions. Let me go through those just really quickly. What are your beliefs, values, and ethics that are part of your position on this issue? You know, wanting to stay with the technology? Do you have some background or childhood history that relates to your position? Why is this so important to you? What do you feel about your position here? What is your ideal dream here? What do you really wish for if the world could be just like you wanted it regarding this issue, what would it look like? And is there some life purpose or goal in this for you that is really important? As you answer those questions, Stephen, she's gaining an inside look into what's deepest and most important to you regarding this issue. Then. Then you ask her the same questions, exactly the same ones to understand where she's coming from. Right. And what that creates is much more understanding and compassion for one another about why each position is so important to that particular partner. Then you try to work on compromise like I described.

Interesting.

But those questions are fundamental. If you just argue on the surface, you're not going to get anywhere. You're going to stay gridlocked. I love my work. I want to do my work, period. Well, does she know why your work is so important to you? What life purpose that is serving for you? Does she know that way down at the core of who you are?

In your research, you discovered something which has become pretty iconic when we talk about relationships and conflict, which is this idea of the four Horsemen. You found that during conflict, couples who show four key behaviors mean that an argument is doomed. And it's the worst way of arguing, I. E. Like, really nothing can be gained beyond that point. John, what are the four Horsemen, and how was this discovered?

Yeah, you know, Bob Levinson and I first looked at just the ratio of positivity to negativity in a conflict discussion, and the first thing we discovered was that among the masters, that ratio was 5 to 1 or higher. And among the disaster couples, it was 0.8 average. 0.8 to 1.

What does that mean? Sorry, 5 to 1.

So if you take the number of seconds that they're displaying, interest, curiosity, affection, humor, shared humor, validation, listening to one another, you know, saying things like, tell me more. Oh, wow. Oh, good point. You know, things like that. And you divide that by the number of seconds that they're angry, upset, you know, disappointed, critical. Critical, defensive, belligerent, you know, all these negative ways, these hostile ways of interacting. That ratio of positivity to negativity was 5 to 1 or higher among relationships.

That work well during conflict.

During the conflict, yeah. So, but the second thing we wanted to know is, well, are all negatives equally corrosive? And the ones that were the most corrosive really involved that person starting off and saying, as far as I can tell, I'm pretty much fine, but you're defective. Here's what's wrong with you. And they started with this criticism that they thought was constructive criticism, and they hoped their partner will respond by saying, God, you're so insightful. Tell me more about how I'm failing. But instead, what they got was defensiveness, counterattack, or the innocent victim posture. And that was the second Horseman of the Apocalypse. The third one was contempt. And that was the worst. That was the best predictor of relationship breakup of all that criticism from a place of Superiority. I'm better than you. I correct your grammar even when you're angry. Or I think I'm more punctual, and that's really important. Or I'm tidier than you are, or I'm better informed than you are. That sort of snobbery, that looking down on their partner.

May I add something?

Sure, go ahead.

With contempt. Also, you've got things like name calling, calling people bad names, sarcasm, mockery. Sarcasm can have a real cutting edge. It can be funny, but then it crosses over into hurt.

And the fourth horseman is stonewalling, which was particularly a guy thing to do. 85% of the time, guys with stonewall, they just shut down. And they don't give these cues to the speaker that they're listening. They're not nodding their heads or moving their facial muscles or uttering these vocalizations like, oh, you know, not doing that. They just kind of shut down and look away. And, you know, when we found those, people's physiology is really elevated.

So it wasn't about whether couples were arguing or not, because we typically think a relationship is doomed if the couple are, like, screaming at each other.

Again, it depends on your definition. Okay, so screaming at each other is one form of argument. And there are certain couples that are volatile. Where both partners are volatile, they're very passionate, they're very intense. They may raise their voices, but depending on what's coming out of their mouths, is it criticism? Is it contempt? Is it defensiveness? If it's any of those, it's not gonna work. But you can also scream. I'm so furious about this. Still describing yourself, that's not going to be a bad thing.

Why is it men, you said, talked about stonewalling there, where you kind of shut down and you. You kind of go within yourself and ignore. Why is it that men do that more than women?

Well, what I think is that we men are much more easily physiologically aroused. And the differences are that we secrete vasopressin, and women secrete oxytocin much more than vasopressin. And so for us, once we get physiologically aroused, it takes us a long time to calm down. And most of what we feel when we get physiologically aroused is anger and aggression. And we want to shut our partner down. We're much more aggressive than women are, and so we shut ourselves down. You know, and when you look at the dialogue that people have in their minds when they're stonewalling, it's usually stuff like, just shut up and don't say anything. You Know, I, you know, you always make it worse when you say something. So just be quiet, endure this. And that's kind of a male response.

Do men have more of a physiological response to arguments, I. E. Like the sweating palms and the blood pressure?

You know, through evolution, women have been responsible for nurturing an infant. In order to do that, you have to have a milk letdown response. Right through evolution. So here's what I mean. Let's say, you know, we're back 3,000 years, right? There's no formula in a can. So women are breastfeeding their infants in order for that to breast milk to come down and in, in order to be released to the infant. Oxytocin is really important. Oxytocin calms you down, it relaxes you. If you're very tense and uptight, milk isn't going to come down at all. So women have the physiology in which to relax more easily. Men on the other hand, through evolution have been the protectors. Right? So if there's a saber toothed tiger attacking a group of people, who's going to jump up and defend against that tiger? Well, the men are typically. So men's bodies are really built to stay vigilant and hyper vigilant, especially for attack. Well, that attack doesn't have to be physical. It can also be mental, emotional, verbal, and men will have the same response.

We're talking about flooding here, aren't we? The concept, we're talking about flooding.

Yeah.

What is flooding, John?

So flooding is really going into fight or flight. It's when we start secreting cortisol and adrenaline are two major stress hormones. And when we feel attacked, when we feel unsafe, you know, we start secreting these stress hormones and there are implications, psychological implications of being physiologically flooded. You can't take in new information. You rely on overlearned habits like aggression or flight. You know, you, you can't listen very well. You're actually, your hearing is compromised, your peripheral vision is compromised. You focus only on the cues you need to survive the moment. And so it's you, you don't wind up being a very creative problem solver or a good listener when you're flooded.

If men flood more than women, does this go to explain why men tend to avoid arguments more than women? Because I think that's a stereotype, at least, that men are much more avoidant in arguments, I think, I mean, it's a stereotype that holds true to me. I've never been sure whether it's because we're not good at expressing our Emotions or if there's a physiological reaction in me that's making me go, oh, 80%.

Of the time women are the ones bringing up issues in a relationship. Now. When guys bring up the issues, sometimes the women get flooded too. So it's not that women don't get flooded, you know. Yeah, they're a little better at self soothing than we are. But you know, during, during an argument, if a woman gets flooded, she really, she can't listen also. And she repeats herself as well, gets more strident, you know, if I'm flooded.

Then typical advice tells me, John, it says never fall asleep if you and your partner have been arguing about something.

Yeah.

What is the best. I get flooded sometimes. What is the best way for me to deal with that?

If it's late at night, you should go to sleep, go to sleep angry. I mean, St. Paul was the one who started that and he wasn't married. So it's, you know, it sounds like great advice, but if it's going to keep you up and you know you're going to get a terrible night's sleep, you know, shake hands and go to bed, give each other a quick kiss and go to bed angry.

What did he start? St. Paul. What did St. Paul start?

Never go to bed wrathful, I think is what his advice was for couples.

And that's wrong.

Yeah.

Okay, so if I'm in the middle of an argument and I feel like I'm a little bit flooded, maybe my palms are a little bit sweaty, I should take a timeout is what you're saying, Julie?

Yeah, let's talk about that. So if you're feeling flooded, you really need to take a break. But there's specific steps to do that one. If you're flooded, you say, I need to take a break. You don't say, you do. I need to take a break and say when you'll come back to continue the conversation. If you do that, then your partner is not going to feel abandoned and rejected. You go apart for maybe 30 minutes, an hour, however long, maximum 24 hours. And you don't think about the fight. Don't plan your rebuttal because that'll keep you flooded as long as you keep thinking about the fight. So, so do something self soothing like reading a book, reading a magazine, working out, maybe going for a run.

Get on your computer, get on your.

Computer, do your email. Don't watch murder mysteries. That's not a good thing to do. So come back at the designated time when hopefully your body is a lot calmer and continue the conversation.

But, you know, a generally consistent result is that women tend to be more unhappily married than men. Guys often think everything's fine.

Oh, my God. So true. I actually had this conversation with a former partner where I said. And I shouldn't have said it, but I'm just gonna be honest. I said to her, in our relationship, I think if you never raised an issue, I think there'd never be an issue, because I just felt like everything was always fine, and every week she was coming to me with a problem. And had she not come to me with that problem, I think. And I might be BSing myself here, I think the relationship would have just been great.

Right.

That's how it felt.

And, you know, women have. Have a lot more depression than men do as well, you know, So I. I think in a lot of ways, the world is harder for women. The world's a more dangerous place for women. For example, the probability that a woman will be physically or sexually assaulted in her lifetime is 40%. It's 9% for men in the United States. I think it's harder to be a woman than it is to be a man.

I've sometimes rebuttal to myself, Julie, when I talk, when I say what I just said about our relationship would be fine if she never brought issues up. Because when I zoom out and I go, the issues she's brought up, have they made our relationship better? And had she not brought them up, would we have drifted? And I say, probably. See what I'm saying? Like, I feel like my partner has always played a role in keeping our relationship close.

He's the caretaker.

Yeah.

Yes.

Is that a real thing?

Yeah, that totally is a real thing. What we saw in the research is that 80% of the time, women bring up the problems in a relationship. 80%. You know, vast majority. And I think it's because, again, women, you know, we talked about how men are raised in society while women are raised in society to nurture, to create connection, to maintain the family unit. Right. To create relationship and make sure the relationship is good and solid and secure. So we were raised with feeling that responsibility for the relationship being good. And when we detect something isn't so good, we're gonna bring it up.

And that's what causes a lot of the frustration, is that we don't realize, we don't have empathy for how the other person is playing a role in creating the whole. Almost, if that makes sense. Because I understand, as I said, my relationship wouldn't be as good if my partner didn't bring up issues. But when she brings up issues, I'm like, why are you bringing up issues? You know what I mean? And it's that. Having that empathy.

Sure. But again, is she bringing up issues in a way that doesn't feel blaming or critical?

To be honest to her, she is. She's bringing them up pretty well.

Great.

It's the way that I'm kind of interpreting it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think is much of the problem.

Well, easy, you know, that happens easily to all of us because, you know, we've got these. This baggage in our background that has created filters in how we hear things, how we perceive things.

I have a hero on one of these videotapes. There was a lawyer and this videotape, he's helping his wife identify what in his personality really makes her the most angry. And he's helping her do that. He's saying, well, is it the way I talk? Is that it? And she says, yeah, it's the way you talk. Well, what. What is it about the way I talk? I mean, is it what, you know, do I sound, what, authoritarian or. Yes, like the king has spoken. And he says, yeah, well, you know, I can. I guess I am like, that sometimes works in the courtroom. And she says, well, it doesn't work with me, you know? And he says, well, that makes sense. He's my hero. He just never gets defensive. He's saying, tell me more, tell me more.

Wow.

What a guy.

Julie, what do we misunderstand about conflict? Because, you know, I've come to believe that the key to understanding if a relationship will be successful over the long term is how well the pair resolve conflict. Is that right? Wrong.

Well, clearly, as we said, because 69% of all problems are perpetual, they are not going to be solved. So if you rely on seeing problems getting solved as an indicator of the success of the relationship, it's not going to look good. Right? So, you know what? I think what we need to understand about conflict that we've written about in our last book is that if we apply the dictum of really understanding our partner and their point of view before we work on trying to resolve the problem, we're going to do much better. Conflict also gets a really bad rap. You know, conflict. You're not supposed to have conflicts. It means if you have a relationship with a lot of conflict, that means it's a bad relationship. Total myth. That is not true. What we've seen is that couples who do fight, but they fight right, as we wrote about, with the tools that are Describing their own feelings and needs rather than blaming the partner, then they're going to really understand each other so much better. As the underlying dreams within the conflict come out, the underlying family history comes out, the life purpose comes out. Think about those big questions in the heart of a conflict that if they are understood, oh, my God, you know so much more about your partner than you did before.

Conflict. How do I become great at conflict? And is that really what I should be aiming at? Should I be aiming at getting. Becoming a master of conflict resolution?

I think so. You know, it's not conflict resolution as much as it is conflict management. And my secret is that notebook in my back pocket. And also I get it out, you know, when we have to talk about something important and I listen to what she's saying, I write it down.

Is it in your pocket now?

It's in my pocket now.

I'm thinking of getting one.

Here it is.

I'm thinking of getting one.

Yeah, it's really great. You know, and so, like, if I say to her, she's upset, you know, or she wants to talk about something important, you know, I'm listening, I'm taking notes. So, you know, and as I'm writing stuff down, it calms me down. And I'm writing it down first. First I'm saying, why does she keep bringing up issues? You know, I didn't want to spend my evening this way. But then I go, oh, that's a good point. That's. That's interesting, you know, And I start realizing that she makes a lot of sense.

Is part of that moving the issue from your amygdala to your prefrontal cortex? That is. It's moving it from your emotional center to your logical center.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I really am.

Because that's. That when you were saying it, I was like, that would be. You use the word. It calms me down.

Calms me down.

That would help calm me down as well. Sure.

When you're taking notes, you know, it's more an intellectual process as opposed to an emotional process. Right. So it takes you out of that emotionally getting stirred up by what your partner is saying and into just processing the words, the language, writing it down, which keeps you calm.

One time, I filled up an entire yellow pad.

Wow.

She said, I want to talk to you. And this. I haven't talked to you about this ever, but I need you to really be quiet and listen. And I just kept writing stuff down.

Did he listen, Julie, on that occasion?

He really did. It was phenomenal. And the wonderful thing that you will discover if you take notes, too, is that it makes your partner feel valued, feel important, feel like whatever they're saying is worth noting down. Right.

It blew my mind. I had no idea she felt that those things.

It's important to you. It's important to you. It's so important that you're gonna take notes on it.

My partner often says to me, halfway through an argument, she says, do you understand what I'm saying? You know, and she and I. And that's quite a curious question because I guess they're checking to see if you've heard and understood them, which clearly is so important. And that's a good way of indicating that you do understand, or at least you're, you know, you're hearing and understanding.

Yeah. Then you can say, well, here's what I understand. And then, you know, sometimes I'll do that. Julie said, no, that's not it. What is it? I thought it was hearing you. Oh, you know, and. Oh, I missed that.

Repair attempts. You write about repair attempts in your books. What is a repair attempt, John?

You know, here's the interesting thing, is that most people don't repair very effectively. The way an argument starts is the way it'll go 96% of the time. So I had this woman named Nancy Dreyfus who came to my lab, and she had written a book of things you can say when you're starting to get flooded in an argument. It was brilliant book. It's called Talk To Me Like I'm Someone youe Love. And it was really interesting. But she had written these things down when she was very calm, and she wrote the book that way. But we actually went to the lab and looked at how do couples actually repair when they try to repair. And what we found was that anything that you would do in a business meeting will fail in a love relationship. Let's take a look at our options and evaluate them. What are our priorities here? What's our fundamental goal?

Let's be rational about this.

Let's be rational about this. Let's evaluate the costs of one option versus another. Doomed. And the only thing that work was somebody would say, you know, God, you know, I'm sorry, I. But I said that, you know, let me try again. Or they would say, you know, I'm really starting to feel defensive. Could you. Could you say that a gentler way? And those kinds of repairs that focused on emotion, they worked. And the earlier they made them in the conversation, the more effective they were.

So these are attempts to repair the relationship or the argument from one side of the argument, Julia.

Right?

Yes, in the the middle of the conversation. So if one person senses it's getting off track to get it back on track, they may say one of these repair phrases. But if the repair is going to be successful, the other person has to accept the repair. So if John is saying to me, hey, I'm starting to feel defensive, can you say that in a gentler way? I could either say, no way, forget it, you deserve all the criticism which is rejecting the repair, or I could say, ah, you're right, let me try again and say it a different way. That's accepting it. But there's also repair after an argument that has felt horrible. And then how do you process and repair that terrible communication you had? That's a whole nother.

That's what I was supposed to say.

Of course it was here. We're telepathic.

Yeah. So that coming back to it, we have a method for doing that, a five step method for revisiting a really regrettable incident that may have happened in the relationship when you're calmer. And that's very effective.

What is that? Fight. Please give it to me.

Yeah, let me do that one. Okay. So we actually have a little booklet that has all this structured out that a lot of people keep in their glove compartment because some, for some reason, arguments happen when you're going 70 miles an hour down the freeway. Right. Never fails. So pull out the book. Okay. In the booklet, the first step is each person addresses a list of emotions that we've printed out and says out loud which emotion they had during this regrettable incident. First of all, and they can name as many as they want. And there are things like hurt, angry, abandoned, rejected, and so on. Secondly, each person has a chance to describe their point of view about what happened from beginning to end of this incident. While the other person. Here we go again. Takes notes at the end of the person's narration. They then summarize what they heard that person say to make sure they got all the good points. And then says something validating like, okay, from your point of view, I can see why you felt that way. The way it's narrated is crucial. It sounds like, I felt that you were angry at me. I saw this angry look at your face. I heard. Heard you say, leave me alone and get out of here. I heard, I saw, I felt, I imagined. So it's all about I. It's not saying you said this mean thing to me, which is critical. All right, so each person has a chance to Share their perception that way, and their partner summarizes and validates what they heard. Third, people look at, did I have any feelings during this that were actual triggers that were feelings that got started long before this relationship? In another relationship, maybe, or even at home with my caretakers or my family. If those feelings got triggered again here and now, then you share what feelings got triggered, which we call an enduring vulnerability, and say, where it may have gotten started before this relationship. That's step three. Step four, you're finally taking responsibility for what you contributed to this regrettable incident by saying, what was your state of mind when it happened? I was really stressed. I needed time alone, you know, et cetera. And then specifically saying what you regret saying or doing during the incident and apologizing for it. Now, note how late the apology is coming. You're not apologizing right away because that doesn't work. You don't know what you're apologizing for if you haven't first heard the impact of that incident on your partner. So step four is apologizing, and then hopefully your partner accepts your apology. And finally, step five is saying one thing your partner can do differently, one thing you can do differently to avoid something like this from happening again, then you're done.

The repair attempt somewhat sounded like, I was gonna say backing down, but it was more like taking an object, one of you taking an objective view on the situation and kind of stepping outside and saying, I'm feeling like this. It's almost like you're like stepping out of the video game, grabbing the controller versus being in the video game. Is that kind of like an accurate description of.

I think so, yeah.

Yeah. Cause sometimes that does happen in my relationships where my partner will almost take a meta analysis on the situation and go, I'm not feeling this or sorry. They'll take a meta approach. They almost step outside and give a commentary, and that diffuses it.

I don't think you're listening to me. Something like that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, they gotta be careful about that. They have to be careful. They shouldn't be number one analyzing you and where you're coming from. And they shouldn't be blaming. You're not listening to me. Shouldn't do that. But if they say, I'm not feeling listened to right now.

Yeah.

Again, Let me try again. That's great.

Interesting. What about sexual and intimacy in these subjects? What have you learned about the role of kissing in the love lab?

Interesting. Yeah, I mean, you know, we haven't done a lot of research on sex. We we did some in that newlywed study because sex had gone down dramatically for most couples even three years after the first baby was born. And so we're asking people how did they cope? How did they keep sex alive? But the biggest study done on this question was done in a book that came out called the Normal Bar. Christiana Northrup is the first author of that. And they analyzed 70,000 people in 24 countries and tried to discern what's different about people who say they have a great sex life and people say they have an awful sex life. How are those two groups of people different? And they discovered that it was the same across the whole planet. And there are really about a dozen things that people do have a great sex life. And saying I love you every day and meaning it is one of them. Giving compliments, romantic gifts, having a lot of touch, cuddling. So of the people who do, who don't cuddle, only 4% of them said they had a great sex life. 96% of the non cuddlers had an awful sex life. So touch is very important, even physical touch, even in public. Affection in public was a big thing. And really, you know, that kind of connection, the romantic date, you know, the romantic vacation, that's what they did. So nothing involved kissing or what happened in the bedroom. So none of that is there. But there has been research on just kissing and it turns out that not every culture do humans kiss, but in the ones they do, kissing is very powerful, very erotic for most couples and it's a nice gateway into eroticism.

I found this really interesting study in your work where it said a 10 year German study that found that. So again, you can repeat this study better than I can.

Men who kiss their wives goodbye when they leave for work live something like four years longer than men who don't. So. And that's a perfunctory kiss.

Don't forget, Stephen, they're getting murdered.

They're being murdered.

But the six second kiss, which we recommend has much more potential than that pick on the cheek.

What is the six second kiss?

A kiss that lasts at least six seconds.

Why not five or four?

Because oxytocin gets secreted with a 20 second hug or a six second kiss. You're both secreting oxytocin. And that creates a sense of psychological safety and connection and bonding. And bonding.

What do you think about the subject of sex, Julie? And you know how important it is for a relationship. How much should we be having sex? Does it really matter? Is it a predictor of long term success? In marriage.

Great questions that my clients ask me a lot. And there's huge variability in sexual preference. Some couples actually don't want to have sex at all. Both people don't want to have sex. They'd rather have kind of a sibling relationship almost. If they're both content with that, then they can have a very successful relationship. Some couples really want to have sex a lot, you know, all the time. And it's a really important component of the relationship. And everything in between, when you run into trouble is the following. And I've seen this so many times. The men who, I guess I would say are hyper masculine, they think that cuddling is too infantile, so they don't want to cuddle. And the only way they can accept physical contact, which they desperately need, is through sex, period.

Penetrative sex.

Penetrative sex, that's right. And the woman has 17 children. She's trying to make dinner, you know, she's exhausted. She may not want to have sex nearly as much as he does. So he begins. Begins to feel deprived of touch. But instead of complaining about that, he says, we're not having enough sex. And she says, I'm not getting enough affection. And there you have, you know, some conflict that has to get sorted out.

It's like they're speaking two different languages of intimacy.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Basically, in a sense, they are. They are. Though typically, the men in these relationships really basically need touch. And can they accept cuddling as something that's just as masculine as penetrative sex? Well, if they really think about it and if they experience it, then, yeah, they can, then things really will tend to improve.

The research there, John, is suggesting, though, as you said, that. That life is foreplay because if, like the. The kissing on the way out the door and the touching my partner's back and the cuddle leads to a better sex life, then we should see life, public displays of affection, all that kind of thing, as an investment in what happens tonight in the bedroom.

Right. I think that's really true.

Every.

Every positive thing you do in a relationship is foreplay. And the couples who. A lot of times the couples who stop having sex have also shut down high conflict. Couples who stop having sex have shut down other things, other sensual parts of their lives as well. You know, they're not having much fun. And, you know, 80% of the 40,000 couples we studied said that fun had come to die in the relationship. There wasn't much play, there wasn't much adventure. It wasn't just sexual. Everything Shut down all the things that were really delightful, you know, exploring new kinds of cuisine, you know, traveling, playing games together, you know, playing sports together.

How do we stop that happening, though, you know? Cause I've often wondered. People often said to me that eroticism and attraction is about novelty and spontaneousness and doing all that kind of thing. And then they've said that love is about familiarity and, you know, comfort, which are. These are two opposite things.

Let me answer that. The person who said that it's all about spontaneity and mystery and so on, has never done any research. The research shows that the familiarity, the emotional connection, really knowing your partner creates, in the long run, much more passion. What? Much better sex, actually, than maintaining mystery, but not really connecting to one another the way people need to.

There's a wonderful book by Emily Nagoski called Come as yous Are that reviews this research. And it shows that, first of all, women have more prerequisites for eroticism than men do. Chevy Chase once said, women need a reason for sex. Men need a place. That's all. So, you know. But it's true. Men. Men don't need to feel safe to feel sexual. Women do. Women need to feel psychologically safe. And that means emotional connection. It also means there can't be a long to do list of things that they have to get done that's been neglected. The dog's been taken out, you know, and has done his business and all of that. And then the situation feels erotic to a woman and she's receptive.

Let me point out something in addition to that that most men don't know, at least in the United States, one out of four, four women have been sexually molested or sexually assaulted by the age of 18. And that's only the women who report it. It's probably one out of three, maybe 40%, including the ones who haven't reported it. So when women have that history, not to mention thousands of years in their bones of being seen only as sex objects and being raped, you know, every other day, you get to understand why women need safety much more so than men.

We wrote a book called A Man's Guide to Women to convey all of these bits of information that have been researched. So familiarity is the basis for eroticism, not for the absence of eroticism. That's a myth.

So I've heard a lot about epigenetics recently, which is this idea that trauma can be passed on from one generation to the next. And with that in mind, if women have been sort of sex objects throughout history, and have been raped and those kinds of things. It's understandable that as you say, Julie, that they have like an inbuilt need for safety that men might not understand in the same way.

Exactly.

Which. What does that say from. To a man, what advice do you then give to a man is. Is the advice you have to make your partner feel safe for them to be aroused?

Right.

Or to. Okay, yes. What else was in that book, by the way? It's quite an interesting book. I feel like I need to read it.

Yeah, it's. Well, you know, it's really that awareness of emotional connection and psychological safety being so important to women and also realizing that men who do housework get a lot more sex.

Is that something Julie told you or.

Is that actually an empirical result?

Yeah, but specifically, honey, they have to do the vacuuming.

Yeah.

And get the bugs off the bed. Interesting. Okay. Are you seeing a difference in our relationship with sex as the world is changing? Because there's some stats that suggest we're getting more and more sexless as a society. Have you seen any changes in your 50 years studying love towards attitudes about sex or, you know, gender roles have changed in that time as well in society.

So, you know, I wouldn't say it's sexless, but I would say it's loveless. More loveless in the sense, you know, again, I don't know what it's like in England or in other countries so much, but in the United States, the hookup culture is, you know, alive and thriving. There's so many websites in which men and men, women and women, men and women are just hooking up, meaning meeting up for the first time, having sex and departing the end.

Is that a problem?

Yes. You know why? Because in that kind of sex, there's no emotional connection. Zero. And I've heard this from both men and women actually, that when they leave, they feel more empty than before they started having that sex.

Why do you think that is?

No emotional connection. It's impersonal sex. They don't know who they're having sex with. So, you know, it's almost like masturbating practically. So, you know, there's a lot of couples who are doing that, but they're not committing in long term relationships as much as they used to. And I think there's several factors involved in that. One is they've seen their parents divorce, so they don't believe in marriage or commitment as an institution that they should live too. Secondly, women have come into the workforce again in the last 50 years. And career is equally important to many women as it is to men.

On that point, do you see issues with women becoming more successful in that, emasculating men to some degree? Because I read about a study that said there's an expectation in society for men to provide more at home financially. And then a separate study showed that women and women sort of equality with men in terms of their pay and education has. Is getting closer. And then the third study says that men can feel emasculated in the presence of a smarter, more successful women and they find it less attractive. So if you put all this together and you go, okay, women are getting richer and more intelligent, men are emasculated by that, but men still have this ex social expectation that they'll pay the bill. In that framework, you go, jesus Christ, this is going to be difficult for, you know, you can look at it another way and say there's less of a pool. For women who typically want to date men that have a certain level of education and a certain level of money, the pool is smaller than ever before. So is this. You know, this is some of the issues of the. Some of the challenges of the modern world.

You're right. You're absolutely right about that. The roles are really changing. And, you know, I remember this feeling myself actually as I built my career and John and I were together and I kept thinking, no, no, no, I should be a housewife. I should just be a mom. I should just be taking care of the home. I shouldn't be devoting all this time to my career. But I love my career. I want to work. And so there would be this turmoil inside about who should I be? And I think men are feeling that too. For example, as I said earlier, men are really wanting to be fathers more. But how can you be an involved father when you're working like crazy? Extra overtime, demand, make more money. Right. It's impossible. Also, those old myths have a hard time falling away. That men who make more money, have more status, have more value as human beings, are better partners. That's so are more male, are more male, are more masculine. It's so not true. Another thing to keep in mind is that women used to make 79 cents for every dollar that men made. Now they make 81 cents for every dollar. You think that's a big change? It is not. So women are still fighting for equality in terms of career opportunities, work opportunities, and so on, and valuing their career. Men sometimes, you know, are struggling. Who should I be now? I used to be the provider who Should I be?

Well, that's what we've learned, right? Because we come from a generation where, like, my father might have been the provider and my granddad was the provider. So I've modeled that and said, well, for me to be a man like my father and I need to be able to do this. But.

That's right. That's right.

It's a good thing that we're getting closer to equality, of course. And I know the pay gap is still. There's still a distance there between men and women, but it kind of. You can see there being some kind of challenge for men who now don't know their role, but society still has an expectation that they'll pick up the bill proudly.

You bet.

It's a difficult conundrum, isn't it? But it's.

Well, it's really hard on men. You know, I think. I think men in many ways are having as hard, if not harder time now in figuring out what their role is and who they want to be compared with women. I mean, our fight started earlier, right? Started in the 70s with women's liberation, and men kind of sat back and went, what?

What's happening?

I think men are discovering the importance of relationship. Relationships. You know, we typically have had worse emotional support systems. You know, many men don't have the best friend, don't have close friends, and their only really close connection is with the woman that they live with and. Or married to. And so I think men are discovering how important social connection is in their lives compared to achievement. You know, I mean, there's this lie that got sold to women that if they really are the caretakers of relationships, they'll be happy. The lie to men is if you are successful in your career, you'll be happy. Neither lie is really useful because both men and women need close connections. We need friends. We need. You know, there's an epidemic of loneliness in the world right now, and that's a killer. We really need to reach out more, not only to make good friends, but also reach out to strangers, create community. And that needs to change.

You know what's really interesting? I mean, just think about it. If you go on the Internet and you look at what women are looking for in a partner, what's the first word they say? They don't say rich. They don't say highly successful, great achievements. Typically they say sensitive. Right? Sensitive. Emotionally aware, caring. So hopefully men can absorb that.

Is that. It's interesting because they do say that. And then they also say strong. And they say, can protect me. And Again, it feels like a poll because on one end it appears that that sort of sensitive emotional openness somewhat since in contrast to like the.

Very. Well, you have a very lucky part.

Those people probably listening don't even know what I did, but I was just flexing my guns. It was the gun show. So like, you see what I'm saying? It feels like a contradiction. It's like how you be this and this. The testosterone filled beats that's going to save the day and then the true.

But keep in mind that being strong doesn't mean being unemotional. Sometimes it takes more strength and courage to voice emotion than it does to shut them down and what they're talking about. You know, let's not forget that women are still getting raped, still getting assaulted, still getting attacked everywhere, still getting murdered, right? So they want a man allegedly who can physically protect them. For sure, that would feel great because women still feel unsafe. However, that doesn't necessarily correlate with being unemotional.

I guess the contradiction goes both ways. Cause men also want a woman that is, you know, compassionate and soft, but they also want her to just be like, to not be emotional and not keep that. So it's like a contradiction both ways.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We want everything right all at once.

And that's part of the problem. Just closing off on this point about sex. Cause I had one last question, which is, does the research show that couples that have the best sex life talk about it the most?

Yes.

I had this debate with my friend and I was wondering.

Yes, no question about that.

Couples who talk about it have a.

Better sex life and how should they be talking about it? Give me some advice on how to talk about sex with my partner.

You need to talk about it in a way that is accepting and loving. So you talk about what's really great in the relationship, what you've enjoyed, what you love about your partner, what you find sexy about your partner, or what you wish for more of. You know?

Right. We created what we call got sex. Isn't that a. We didn't think of the title, I promise. So it's a kit that includes seven different structured conversations to have with your partner about sex that have to do with what do you prefer specifically, how would you like sex to be initiated? When would you like it initiated? How can we refuse sex without massacring each other's egos? How should sex be completed, et cetera. So the couples who talk much more openly and more comfortably about that do much better sexually.

And for love maps, we have a hundred questions you can ask a man about his erotic world. And 100 questions you can ask a woman about our erotic world. And they're not the same questions.

Men and women, well, just people generally, even in sort of homosexual relationships and heterosexual relationships, have very different fantasies, often linked to their trauma wherever they come from. Whatever. What happens in a relationship when one partner isn't willing to do the fantasy that the other partner is really craving? How does one navigate that?

Well, couple of ways. One is the person who's not willing to do it can maybe describe it verbally, because couples who talk more during sex actually have better sexual relationships too. So if the partner who doesn't want to do, well what the other wants at least describes it verbally, whispering it in some kind of really cool tone, well, the guy can get off on that or the woman can get off on that. Right?

I'm imagining you're a cheerleader right now and I'm the football player.

And I'm 6 foot 4, not 5 foot 7.

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There are a lot of ways to really betray a partner in a relationship. I mean, you know, cheating is one way, but any kind of betrayal is something that needs to be healed in a relationship. For example, if you've teamed up with somebody in your family against your partner at some point, that may feel like a betrayal. You know, and it doesn't have to be sexual, but it's something that needs to be healed because trust and commitment are so important as the bedrock of every relationship.

If I was to say. Tell me the exact. In Your Love Lab 2, a couple walk in, and they. They're there for 24 hours in your love lab, and you're studying them. Can you role play the behavior that a couple who are destined to fail would exhibit?

Oh, yes. How many ways can we do that? Okay.

God, these crossword puzzles are really hard.

You know, I'm really sick and tired of you always paying attention to your stupid crossword puzzles. They're just. They're such a waste of time. I don't know why you do that. It's just stupid.

Well, I think they're too challenging for you intellectually. That's why you avoid them.

What are you talking about? I could do that with almost my eyes closed.

I never see you do a crossword.

Puzzle because it's stupid activity. Why would I want to do it?

I think. I think you're avoiding it because you're avoiding challenges in your life. You do that in every phase of your life. Avoid challenges. You always take the easy road.

You think that marrying you was the easy road? Are you kidding? Okay, so that's kind of what it looks like.

I've seen that before.

Have you? So have we.

What's the opposite then. Then using the crossword example again, if you role play the. The opposite scenario.

Okay.

Boy, some of these challenger crossroad puzzles are really hard.

Really?

Yeah.

Oh, did you find something really hard in the one you're doing now?

Yeah. It's like you have to know the names of these dinosaurs I've never heard of in order to complete the puzzle.

Oh, my God. That sounds impossible.

I know. Yeah, it really does.

Yikes.

Yeah.

What are you working on right now that's so hard?

Well, you know, I'm trying to do these sudoku things.

Oh, no.

I'm having a lot of trouble with those.

Oh, those are impossible for me. Oh, my God. Yeah, I like that. You really love challenges. Good luck with that. I don't think I'll be able to help you.

Okay. All right.

Okay, so it kind of looks like that.

And what are the, like, fundamental differences? Like, is something being deposited in that first example? That's gonna be insidious. And. And to result in the relationship falling down.

Think of the word stupid. I used it three times. Put down criticism, contemptuous. How does he respond? Counterattacks. You're not smart enough to do these. Defensiveness.

These are like personality attacks. And straight from the jump.

Exactly, exactly.

And how does that lead to divorce?

How does it feel when somebody looks down on us, is disgusted by us, does think we're stupid? Do we want to be close to that person? Do we want to have sex with that person? Do we trust that person? No, we do not. We pull away from them.

It can be much more subtle as well than you demonstrated there. What are, like, the subtlest ways that that contentment can show up in a conversation?

So you wouldn't, you know, I've asked you to do the dishes. You wouldn't really think of getting your hands wet to do the dishes, would you?

So that's sarcastic.

I really hate getting my hands wet.

Okay, so that was a little bit of sarcastic.

It was sarcastic. But getting your hands wet? I mean, it's like. It's contempt Again, what advice would you.

Give to me then? I'm 31 years old. I'm four years into my relationship. You're what, 36 old?

Years.

Years into your marriage?

37.

37 years into your marriage. What advice would you give to me to make sure that I get 37 years deep? You know, you've given me lots of advice today about how to argue and how to resolve conflict.

Get these. Get this notebook.

I'm going to get a notebook. I'm going to carry around a notebook, and the minute we have an argument, I'm going to start taking notes.

Yeah, that's my solution, you know? And do you know her dreams?

This is a really good question, because I think I know her dreams, but I've never really asked directly.

Oh.

Which I Probably should have, according to Julie's answer.

Yeah, you might be surprised by the answer.

Yes, sir. And does she know yours and why they're so important to you beyond just. Yeah, it's fascinating.

I'm not even sure I know mine, which is a bit of an wonderful.

How does it relate to you being from Botswana?

Yeah, it's an interesting thing because I think sometimes we're scared of voicing our dreams because we think it might result in figuring out that they're unaligned. Like, I think if I asked her what her dreams were, she's very ambitious. She wants to start a family. I think she wants to live in the sun somewhere. My dreams are probably more focused on I want to start a family too, but I want to. I love doing this podcast. There's only a couple of cities in the world where I can do it, and there's only one city in the world where I think I can do this podcast, and it's sunny and that's here. And she might not like being here, but for a variety of reasons. So it's like. And then when you have kids, you realize that you can't just fly around like I do now. We have to be together and present and raise the kids. So I don't know. In my head I've just thought, cross that bridge when we come to it. Is that a good way to deal with life?

No. Well, it's not a bad way. It's not a bad way. It depends on your timing. But the book we wrote, Eight Dates, which gives you conversations to have that are really, really important as you are establishing a long term relationship, or if you're already in one, but you haven't had conversations like these in a while then, and those are great to have. And you don't have to be afraid, you know, that your dreams are very different from one another. Because if there's a lot of love, you know, with maybe a couple of exceptions out there, you can figure out a way to make it work.

What advice would you give to me then? I want all of the advice that you haven't yet given me today.

Okay. So one of them would be just remember that 85% turning towards figure.

Okay.

Turn towards her as much as you can.

You don't mean physically, you mean.

No, I mean if she makes a little bid for connection, like, hey, Stephen, come into the kitchen. I want to show you something. Get up and go to the kitchen.

85% of the time. At least try.

Do your best. It's not gonna be perfect.

It's 86%, by the way.

Oh, honey. See, he's my numbers man. I can always count on him to come up with the right. Okay, so you gotta work even harder, Stephen, 86% of the time. Yeah. So that's a good one. Another one is when you are talking about an issue, work really hard to not blame and not criticize. Y describe yourself, your own feelings, what situation you're upset about, and what your positive need is, not the negative one.

Anything else, John?

We have this great card deck called expressing your needs. I don't know if you've got a copy of that one.

No, no, no.

You can download it on the. On the app store. Gottman card decks. Have it on your phone. And once a week just sit down with her and go through and say, okay, here's two things I need this week.

Why? Why should I do that?

Because then it's real clear, you know, and she can tell you what two things you can do to make her happy this week. And, you know, rather than leaving it to chance.

You know you're a man that loves maths, right? Yes. Give me some of the most interesting mathematical conclusions you've been able to arrive at through your work through the Love lab.

I think the most amazing one is that the only way to be powerful in a relationship is to accept influence. And it's so counterintuitive, but that turns out to be really powerful. I found that very surprising.

The only way to be powerful is.

Basically to be influenceable, be flexible, be.

Movable, listen to your partner and try to accept some influence from what they're saying. Not perfectly, of course.

Anything else?

Say what you need. Don't expect your partner to read your mind, because they never can.

Anything else?

Yep. One more. This is one of our favorite questions. Ask your partner once a week. What is something I can do next week to make you feel more loved?

We have this annual honeymoon that we do that we've done for 23 years, and we go away and bring our kayak and we ask each other three questions over two weeks. What sucked about this year? What did you like about this year? And what do you want next year to be like? So we have that once a year time when we can really take a hard look at our lives and see what needs to change.

Here's the deal. We're talking to each other all the time because we work together and we're expressing love and affection and gratitude to one another all the time. And a lot of our work is fun. It would be great if we Went out on more dates. The pandemic kind of interfered with that quite a bit.

But we loved it.

But we loved it. And we love going on dates. It's just we're so darn busy like everybody else and we're really old, Steven, so we're getting tired.

John, what does Julie mean to you?

What does she mean to me? Well, she's really the most important thing in my life. Absolutely the most important thing. Waking up in the morning and having her be next to me is such a joy. And cuddling with her and our dog is just a wonderful thing every morning. And now we get to be grandparents together. We have this two year old little boy that we're both in love with and we get to see our daughter be a mom. You know, it's. It's the greatest gift that anybody's ever given me is to become a father. She means everything to me.

If she wasn't in your life, what would you be missing? Everything.

Everything.

Julie, what does John mean to you?

He's the most adorable, wonderful, lovable person I've ever had in my life. What he means to me is that he has healed me from a lot of my own past trauma. He makes me laugh all the time and I didn't know how to laugh at all. I never laughed before I met him. He supports my dreams. Nobody ever cared about my dreams. Knew about my dreams before I met him. Including crazy dreams like going to Antarctica by myself. He supported that. Isn't that amazing? He is the most supportive, wonderful man. And the other thing is that he's so damn smart, I knew I would never be bored. And he reads a million times as much as I do. I mean, I read a lot, but he reads so much that I'm constantly learning from him. So he's a source of knowledge, source of laughter, source of sunshine, source of a fabulous, fabulous, fabulous daughter and son in law and grandson. And he's got the most beautiful eyes in the whole wide world. That's what he means to me. Besides that, I love his hat. He always wears the same hat. And he has for like 40 years because it makes him look like a Jewish intellectual Bolshevik. What could be better?

She's talking about my leather hat.

Oh, okay. I was gonna say fisherman's hat fight. Right. The book has come out, I think.

February 1st, January 30th. Yeah.

Okay.

Why did you write this book? Why was it so important? There's so many things that you could have written about from all of your research, but for some reason you wrote a book Called fight. Right. Why did.

Why? Take a look at the world Fighting, especially in the United States, has become more polarized than ever. Secondly, hatred has become sanctioned as a fine way to express your own political points of view. Has there been any listening to each other? Zip. None. And so, you know, we can't. We're not politicians. We're not going to affect the whole social system. But if we can change how people listen to one another and love one another at home, which is what we know the most about, then we can hope and pray for a ripple effect to move out into society and create more love out in the world, too, where we need it so much.

Making peace, one family at a time.

Oh, I love it. Nice one.

We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for. I'm gonna ask you both to answer the question. I don't get to see it until I open the book. Here we go. Oh, interesting. So I'm going to start this with Julie. If you could go back and tell your parents any one thing at the time you were born, what would it be?

I would tell my father, would you please stay home at least one day a week? Instead of abandoning my mother every single day, seven days a week, I would tell my mother, stop being critical, stop being contemptuous, try to look for what all of us are doing right, and say that rather than only pointing out what we're doing wrong.

Why wasn't he home?

He was a cardiologist, so he was constantly gone, saving lives, basically, as a cardiologist. And when he wasn't, he was playing golf. Classic cardiologist. And I think my mother may have drove him a little crazy because she was a very, very disturbed individual. So he escaped. And he was a 50s, 1950s father. Right. Which meant all he had to do was provide. That was it. No role with the children.

And your mother, I'm guessing, didn't know how to fight in the way that you describe it in this book.

Oh, my God, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. My mother had witnessed horrible violence and rape within her home. She was incested herself in her own home growing up as a child. She didn't feel like she had any value other than her beauty. And she was very, very beautiful. So she didn't feel entitled to ask for what she needed. And you need to feel at least some of that in order to fight for what you want and what you need.

Joan, same question.

Yeah.

What would I tell my parents? Yeah, I. I think that I would tell my parents, first of all, how much I love and appreciate them for who they were. And I don't think I did that enough, especially with my dad. And I would also tell my parents to be better parents toward my sister because we really lived in two different families. And my sister didn't have an easygoing temperament and she was extremely talented musically. And I wish they had supported her music and loved her better because she really needed it. And I think they could have done a much better job being parents of her. They did a great job with me.

What was the cost to your sister?

I think she felt really unloved. Still does, especially by my mom. And I felt very loved by my mom.

I think that's kind of served to make sense of why you both do what you do. In many respects, you both have an origin story which is sort of pertinent and present in the work that you do. And the perspectives you both take on the subject matter of love and relationships comes from two very different places. And we all have an origin story of love and relationships. And I think we often discount how important and formative that is for us. I mean, I know from myself personally, my life is dominated by love and relationships and my success, my business. Everything that I've done in my life comes back to the early relationships I had, my perspective on love and the lack of love or the love that I once needed. So thank you so much to both of you for really being seen as the. You are seen as the pioneers on this subject. And I said to you before we started recording that so many of my guests have come on this show and mentioned your work, they've quoted your work, and these are some of the most successful people in the world. They're scientists, they're neuroscientists, etc, but even long before I got to meet you, many years ago, I did a live show across the UK and I was quoting stuff that came out of your Love Love Lab in. In. On stage, in front of thousands and thousands and thousands of people. So thank you for turning the lights on to a subject that matters so much to human happiness and health, as we've discovered, because it's some of the most important work that I think anyone could do for humanity, and you guys have been leading the way in doing it. So thank you both so much.

Thank you, Stephen, for having us on your podcast.

Thank you so much, given that you have interviewed some of the most successful, brilliant people on the planet, to be honoring love in the way that you're doing, because by doing that, you are really endorsing how important love is. And everybody needs to hear that. So thank you.

Well said, honey.

Indeed.

Everyone needs to go get your books. I mean, there's quite a lot of them, but this particular one here, I think everyone should start with. Because conflict resolution, knowing how to take on conflict, knowing how to address it, knowing how to be a better sparring partner in relationships so that it can be you and your partner. Partner versus the problem versus instead of you versus your partner, I think is foundational to us finding the love that most of us are searching for. But that feels so elusive. So I'd recommend everybody to go get the book. I'm going to link in the description below. Thank you so much. We're done.

Sam.