Geneva Heyward

I'm Danny Ruderman and this is Extraordinary youy, a podcast that shares inspiring stories of young people who've done incredible things and how they did it. Our guest today is 19 year old Geneva Hayward, a video game designer who currently attends NYU on a full scholarship. While she was in high school, Geneva began programming Nostalgic Feeling video games focused on themes that included the environment and inclusivity. Her first big game, Green Hero, went on to win the National STEM Video Game Challenge. Geneva, welcome to xu.

Thank you.

So I want to start with this question. Would you rather only be able to use a fork, no spoon, or only be able to use a spoon, no fork.

Oh my goodness. I'd have to go with a fork, no spoon. Because like, interesting. I mean, like, I feel like I can eat a lot of things without a spoon. Like, I don't know, like applesauce would be weird, but then it's like, I guess I'll just slurp it from the cup with no spoon.

See, that's interesting because my, my brain immediately went to soup. I was like, no spoon. Because you could sort of cut things with a spoon. But then again, steak would be really hard with a fork. So these are the probing questions that we ask on this podcast. These are the hard hitting investigative questions. So let's, let's start with something a little bit more personal. Tell me about your upbringing. How'd you grow up?

So I grew up in Queens, New York. I have four younger siblings. All. Well, one of my siblings is like literally a year younger. So I've just been like really close with all of them because we're not that far apart. And my dad, he would like fix computers sometimes and because of that there is always like electronics in the house. And like, he also liked playing video games. So there was consoles in the house and so that was. Video games have always been a part of my life since I was like three years old. Playing games on Disney Channel or like playing on the GameCube with my siblings. It's been great.

That's awesome. So did you have every game console available to you? Did you have a Switch and you have a Wii? And did you like, were they all over the place?

I mean. Yeah, sort of. Like for a while we had like two Wiis in the house because like we thought that one of them was broken. And then all of a sudden it started working, but then my sister kind of broke it again because like the Wii fell and one of the games got stuck in it. So it was just that we was only for One game for a while.

And did. Did you have a favorite game growing up that you obsessively played?

I'd say so, but I'd only say, like, it was like Pokemon Coliseum and Paper Mario and A Thousand Door. I only played those two because we had two memory cards and my siblings would keep overwriting my save files, so I'd have to keep starting from the beginning.

Damn them. Did you have a favorite Pokemon character?

It's kind of hard, especially now, because there's, like, so many Pokemon. I guess, like, when I played the Mystery Dungeon games, I like, they have, like, a little quiz to be like, what Pokemon are you? And one time I got Munchlax, and so I, like, felt really attached to Munchlax for a while.

And. And for some reason, I like Charmander. I don't know why. I have no. I have no attachment. I don't know really know anything about it, to be honest with you, because I'm old now, but still, I like the name. So. So you grew up playing games and your parents were supportive of that?

Yeah.

Did you have any other exposure to video games or. You can. You know, when was the first time you thought, God, if I could design one of these, it'd be so awesome?

Well, honestly, for a long time I didn't know that people made games that never, like, clicked in my head. And even after, like, there was this one time in middle school where I was messing with, like, Adobe Flash because I would like to animate on there, but then I saw videos where you could make your own games. And I like. I followed the tutorial, but really I like, copy and pasted code and was like, oh, snap, I made a game. But even then it still didn't click that people make games and that this isn't just, like, a thing I did as a weird experiment.

Right. So when was that first experience when you had that aha moment?

It was when I was going to NYU's Future Game Design program, which is like a high school program that I was in, in sophomore year of high school. And basically what happened was like, it was like, basically one day they brought in this guest speaker named Maddie Bryce, and she was telling us about, like, how people, like, the way people play games reflects, like, their personality and stuff, because you can, like, you know, in some games, you can decorate, you know, your characters or you can like, choose how, like, your strategies and all of these other things. But she also, like, talked about the engines that were made for certain games. And, like, that was when I was like, ooh I should search this up at home. And I saw that they were free, or, like, some of them were free, or some of them were, like, super cheap. And that was when it clicked, because I was like, wow, I can make games at home.

I mean, cool, right? I mean, that's amazing. Then you. Did you have any coding experience or any design experience?

No. Anything that was related to coding? Like that one time where I copy and pasted code was, like, the only.

Time that was it.

Yeah. All the other times I was really focusing on being an animator because that's what I thought I wanted to be for a long time.

Got it. So do you grew up drawing on sketchbooks and doodling all over the place?

Yep.

And were you the type of illustrator? Were you drawing characters or, you know, designs? What was the thing that you found yourself naturally doing?

Yeah, I made, like, just a bunch of characters. Like, especially, like, when I started high school, like, almost every time it was math class, I would somehow create a new character or, like, draw more characters, interacting with each other, having their own stories and stuff. And it was a mess, especially for looking through my notes.

Did you have to turn those notes into your teacher and they would say, like, geneva, most of the time, focus more on the formulas.

Yeah.

No.

Most of the time, no.

Okay, that's. That's good. And had you taken art classes when you were growing up?

So I had, like, an art class in middle school because it was just, like, an elective. But when I went to high school, I decided to go to art and design, which is this art school in Manhattan. And so they even had, like, majors there. So that's why I was like, oh, I'm going to go to the school and I'm going to go do animation. And then I was like, animation is kind of exhausting. Games are better.

Why is that, by the way? Just because of the time that it takes.

I feel like. Yeah, it's like with animation, I'm, like, doing the same thing for several hours, and I feel like making games, it's kind of the same, but for me, since I kind of dabble all over the place, I can switch to drawing or programming, writing or making music, because, like, those are all things that go into.

Right, yeah, that's totally correct. That. I totally get that. And when you were in school, did you gravitate towards a specific subject where you, like, did you, like, math and science or English and history or.

I feel like I didn't really grab it because I was just, like, kind of okay with them all. I feel like, for example, I'd like English more if I like the books I was reading. All right, math. I. I think I liked it because it's like problem solving and programming is a lot of problem solving, which I enjoy. Yeah. I feel like I didn't have once place where I was like, all right, I love this specific class. This is the one I look forward to. I feel like what I look forward to is lunch to take a break.

Well, actually, I asked the question because a lot of creative students that I've met over the years don't always love school, but there are elements of their subjects that they like. So kind of like you said, you kind of like math because of the problem solving and you kind of like art for the creative or the reading because of the storytelling. So it makes a lot of sense that video games would appear because they bring all of these disciplines together, but you actually are able to make something. It's not like you're sitting learning geometry for apparently no reason.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, so. And a lot of. A lot of gamers or programmers have told me what's really interesting is when they create something and hit enter or whatever it is when they. When they finish, they actually see the product.

Yeah, I think that's honestly my favorite part because it's just like, working hard to finally see, like, something come out of it.

I can't. I can't imagine because I don't do any programming, but it sounds really cool. So what was the first game that you tried or that you made?

So, like, the first, I guess I consider official game that I made digitally was when I was at Future Game Design Program. So it was this game called Aphrodite's Calling. And it was like a group project. But basically what me and my group member did, like my teammate did, was make this game about a cenotar that was collecting apples from Aphrodite. So wait, no, it was a horse collecting apples from Aphrodite to become a centaur. And like, there were like, different centaurs you could turn into that had different, like, power ups. It was kind of weird, but.

And did you. Did you like mythology or was that just a random, Like, I know what we should do.

I feel like we might have gotten a theme, but I don't exactly remember.

That's fair.

Yeah.

It was so long ago. Four years ago. Wow.

Yeah. Oh, my goodness.

Unbelievable. So, okay, so you made this game and was it. How long did it take you to make that first game? Were you there for a week or three weeks?

Yeah. We were there for a couple of weeks. I don't exactly remember how many weeks we had, but I know it was like we had a few weeks to work on it and it was only on a Saturdays when we were there, so. So yeah.

And when you were at this NYU program, how long did it take you to make this first game?

So it took a couple of weeks that we were like working on it. I'm not. I don't remember the specific number, but I do know that we were only there on Saturdays, so that was the only day we had to work on it.

Got it. So you were like, you were already living in the city basically. So you were just commuting.

Yeah, it was.

To the program.

It was so long because from Queens to Brooklyn, it takes like an hour to. Especially on weekends.

Well, and a lot of people think that NYU is only in the city, but in actuality, the game design program is actually in the new. The newer building in Brooklyn, right?

Yeah.

So you had to go from borough to borough. How fun for you. So were you happy with this game or did it spark something in you? Say, wow, this is something I might want to continue doing.

I feel like it wasn't the game that sparked like, I want to keep, like making games. It was just like the program as a whole. Because I feel like I learned like a lot and I like saw a lot from different people and like made cool friends there. And I think it was just like, really cool. Like, what I think is even funnier is like, one of the people that was in my class is like a Jr. At NYU's Game center right now. So I feel like that program sparked a lot of us.

I think that's the purpose actually, especially for, you know, that was the game program. I don't remember. It's not all that old at nyu and they're building it. Right. So they want people to come into the industry.

Yeah.

So you go back to high school and now you're a junior and now are you making games? You said you found some engines and why don't you tell everybody what an engine actually is?

Yeah, so a game engine is like the actual, like, application that you open up on your computer that helps you make games. So there's a lot of different types because there's a lot of different genres. Like, are you going to make something like Mario? Are you going to make something where it's more story based? And so there's like a couple of free engines out there, like twine for narrative based games. Ren' Py which is like visual novel, basically. So it's narrative, but, like, you can add your art in there and it's, like, really easy to use. And then, like, the most popular one, I'd say right now is Unity, because you can make 2D and 3D games for free.

That's really cool. And did you. How did you learn how to use these engines?

So for, like, twine and ren', py, I learned by watching tutorials and, like, going online in forums and trying to figure things out. But for unity, like, I tried, like, I feel like after the NYU program, I kept trying to learn unity, but I kept, like, getting confused being like, this is too complicated. So eventually, when I was like, in junior year, there are people who came to my school that were like, oh, we are the School of Interactive Arts. We have a game design program for high schoolers and we teach unity and. Etc and so forth. And wow. Like, what? What? Like, a lot of people when we were watching the showcase were worried about because it was like, oh, yeah, so we're going to be here with you for, like, the rest of your high school career. And, like, because, like, I was in my junior year and it was like, oh, man, college and stuff. Like, a lot of people are like, well, Geneva, I don't know if you should join because, like, you need to focus on college and stuff. But I was like, no, this is going to be fine. Because they had college advising, which I don't think I knew at the time.

Nice. So you really went after what you wanted to do as opposed to, like, the safe route, go academic and get into colleges. You're like, no, this opportunity is right here. Why not take advantage of it?

Yeah.

Nice. And it seems to have worked out for you so far.

Yeah. Like, honestly, I feel like from that point on, like, the rest of my high school career, I feel like, like, revolved around being like, at SA because that was where I learned about the Games for Change Student Challenge and like, the STEM National Video Game Challenge and a bunch of other opportunities that are, like, in the city and national and stuff like that, which I think was really great.

Nice. So let's talk about those. So what are. What is the STEM Challenge and the Game Challenge? What are they?

So the National STEM Video Game Challenge was like a contest that happened in 2017 and a few years prior, but think it happens anymore. But basically it was like a competition where people could. Well, students, like high school students and I believe middle school students could enter their games for specific themes, whether it's like, based on the engine you're using best based on like what's the overall meaning of the game and things like that. And then the national, national. The Games for Change Student Challenge is like, like it happens in a few states, I know it happens in, I believe, New York and California I think, I'm not entirely sure, but it happens in like about four states. And basically it's to push high school students and middle school students to make games that can help make an impact on problems that are happening in the world. So in 2017 I made this game called Green Hero that was basically like, all right, like here's a hero without powers trying to battle climate change in like these little ways. And basically what I wanted for the game, for it to be like warioware esque. So like having like these mini games inside the game. So basically you're one mini game. You're planting trees to like, you know, create more oxygen. Like there's a lot of air pollution around.

That's awesome.

And there's the second one which is basically you're in like the main villains house where you're trying to turn off all the electronics because they have every electronic.

I mean, that's funny. I love the fact that they have no powers whatsoever. It's the anti marvel. It's like, let's get real here. Let's talk about the real villainy out in the world. That's amazing. And how long, first of all, why did you choose this as your topic? Where did environmentalism come from?

So I feel like I can't remember what the other themes were, but for climate change I feel like it means a lot to me because as you can see, you can turn on the tv. The world is going through some mentality mess right now. Like, and I felt like this would be really important to like make a game about. And also because like I feel like sometimes people don't like, like understand things or care about things because it's like. But like I have to do a bunch of research and that's boring. And I was like, well, if I can make this like a fun experience where it's like you can learn stuff that you can do like literally right now, like I felt really attracted to doing something like that.

I mean that's great too because if you can teach kids at an early age to form good habits, they're gonna continue those habits, you know, on throughout their life. So that's amazing. And how long from start to finish do you think it took to make this game?

I feel like it took like two to three months. But I can remember I, like, would take a lot of time after school going to SAA because they had, like, open office hours and being like, oh, I need help with this bug, or, oh, I'm just sitting here because, like, at home, since I have three siblings and then I have cousins who come by sometimes, it's not a good place to be working. It's very loud. So I wanted, like, a quiet place where I can, like, get help if I needed it. But, yeah, it took a while.

And, you know, was it just, oh, I had this idea and I sat down and it took me a couple or a few months and look at the game. Or was it, you know, continually learning or having to learn something new and work out the bugs and things like that?

Yeah, I feel like for some reason, like, with this, with that first idea, it kind of came naturally to me. But definitely when I was like, oh, I want to do this thing, it was big learning experience for me because I was just learning like, oh, so this is how you switch scenes? Oh, this is how you, like, make someone, like, speed up, like, do a dash type of thing or other things like that? Yeah.

So was there ever a time that you didn't want to finish or that you doubted yourself as to whether you could ever finish it?

I'm not really sure because I feel like since I was like, my first. I feel like that was my first, like, finished, polished project I made at that program. And because, like, I felt so comfortable there and, like, I felt really supported, I was like, all right, I'm gonna do this and this is gonna get done. Like, I'm sure I might have been stressed about, like, school and other outside stuff, but I feel like, because I kept going to the office to just be like, all right, I'm gonna calm down and we're gonna work on this game and it's gonna be okay. And.

And do you find that when you're making a game that you get completely and totally hyper focused, where you forget about everything else in your life and you can just focus on that?

I'd say for the most part, yeah. It's like, just like, I'd say it depends on, like, you know, if I'm in the right space where I'm like, all right, I can focus here if I'm, like, not stressed about a bajillion things that might be happening the day after and things like that. But yeah.

And so what was the feeling like when you actually ran the game and it worked for the first time?

It felt. Felt Pretty great. I was just like, yes, I am done. This is complete.

And did anybody play it right away? Did you see their reaction or did you test it out?

It's like, I. I think I was the only one who tested it because I didn't, like, think about letting other people play test it. Like, I feel like at that age, I was very like, oh, I'm too scared to show it to anyone besides, like, the people who helping me. So, yeah, like, even, like, my parents and my siblings never played it until, like, the, like, festival that happened, like, where people are like, all right, we're gonna give out awards. And.

Yeah, that's really common. Actually. A lot of artists or creators that I've interviewed or know, they. They don't want to. They would rather show a random adult their work because they don't know that person, then show their family or their friends, because then they know they gotta hear about it. They gotta hear about what might be wrong, or they might feel that they're gonna be judged. Right. And that's very common. So it doesn't really surprise me.

Yeah.

So, okay, so you enter this game for this challenge, right?

Yeah.

And you. So. And then what? How long do you wait to hear something?

So I think for Games for Change, it was due in May, but the STEM Challenge might have been due earlier. But I just remember I submitted them. Submitted the game to both competitions at the same time, and I hear about Games for Change. I pretty sure close to June, because June is usually when they have their award ceremony and the STEM Challenge. I think they. They might have emailed my parents or something about it, and then I found out about it, like, still, like, probably before Games for Change, but, like, around the same time. But I was.

Yeah. I mean, did you have any expectation that you were going to win?

No. This is my first time, like, submitting to, like, any contest. I feel like, yeah.

I mean, how cool is that? You're just sitting around one day, don't expect anything, and then all of a sudden, you get the call. You're like, oh, by the way, yeah, you won first place.

Yeah. That was like, wow. Like, I mean, like, for Games for Change, it was because, like, they just said that I was a nominee and that to come to them. But for the STEM Challenge, they were like, yes, you've won for. I think it was the. It might have been the Unity category, but I'm not entirely sure. But, yeah, it was. It was still amazing.

Was there prize money, too, for the STEM Challenge?

Yes, for Games for Change at that year they hadn't started giving out prize money, but they invited me to the Games for Change festival, which was really amazing.

And tell us about that.

Yeah, so that was, like, my first time going to a games festival. And it was also my first time speaking because they invited me to speak at one of their panels, which I was like, whoa, I didn't think I would be doing this for several years. Years. And here I am.

You're a junior, right? You're at the end of your junior year, right?

Yeah, yeah, that was. Yeah, I was super. That's.

And where was this. Where was the.

The conference the conference was at? It was in New York, so at the New School Parsons, like, in that area, basically. And it was just like, really amazing. Like, I got to meet a lot of people, got to play a lot of games. They also, like, had like, an after event for VR world, so that was really cool. I haven't liked. Did like, at. At that point in time, I never really messed with VR much. So that was really interesting.

Nice. So these connections that you made at these presentations and these conferences, have you kept in touch with them?

It's like, I sort of have. Or at least I've been, like, following certain people on social media and being sure to, like, support them and things like that. But, yeah, it's been.

Yeah. Okay, so a lot of times, like, you bump into somebody in college that you met two years before randomly. It just like, the more connections you make. And I think you'll find this too, when you get even older. Somebody that you met four years ago will pop up someplace. I remember you, which is great. Okay, so you win this award at the end of your junior year, and now you are starting to think about college and did this really validate your desire? Hey, you know what? I really want to go into game design. Or did you have second thoughts or were you having other people tell you, you know, maybe that's not the way you should go?

No, I was just like. I was just like a train just chugging towards game design. Like, further. Oh, faster and faster.

Like, that was it. That was really like, hey, I actually have talent in this. I can do this.

Yeah. And like, I feel like even, like, because when it was time to, like, start preparing for college and whatnot, I was like, all right, I'm going to, like, put together my portfolio. I'm going to, like, because just from all of, like, that experience from making the game and also being in that program, I found out about, like, websites that hold, like, a little events and things like that like, there's things called game jams, which are basically, you know, you're making a game in a short amount of time. And a lot of them happen online. Some of them happen in person. But I joined a few online ones, like, in the summer after I did after, like, the Games for Change festival and stuff. I remember I made, like, a character creator and, like, I eventually made, like, some, like, interactive fiction games and things like that. And I was like, all right, I'm building up my portfolio. I'm going to be ready for this.

Nice. And how did you balance? I don't know if this is true for you, but video game designers, I know it starts to take over their life because it takes so much time. So how are you balancing making these games and going to school?

So I feel like, well, specifically in the summer, because I think I was like. I was like, SA also runs through the summer, so I. I think I was also there. But specifically when school started, I know that I started using programs that, like, I can be like, okay, I'm recording my time, and I'm like, I have a planner, so I can be like, okay, so at this hour, I'm going to do this, and this hour I'm going to do that and things like that. And I try to just like, get most of my. Any homework I knew I had done early sometimes in school because, like, we kind of like, specifically senior year, I feel like, was a very calm year for me, and I tried to move, make sure, like, in the summer I got my schedule. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not taking any APs this year. This is senior year. I'm focusing on games. That is it.

Okay. That's actually a really important point, since my job for the last 15 years has been a college counselor. You just said that you chose not to take APs for the last year. For the last year, but yet you still got into nyu, and I believe you got a full scholarship. Is that right? Right. So the reason why this is important to people listening to this is because everyone thinks, oh, my God, I have to take every AP class, every single year to have an opportunity to go to, quote, a select school. But in actuality, if you have a passion or a talent, you do need to balance. It's not like you don't have to take challenging classes, but it's really about developing that skill set. Right. Because your portfolio is probably one of the more important parts of that application.

Yeah, I feel like that. And also, like, besides Focusing on my portfolio. I was also focusing on making my SAT grade go up. Like, I took the SAT several times because I was like, my grades are good. I'm working on my portfolio. SAT is the only thing that I'm like, you know.

That was smart, though. You were prioritizing.

Yeah.

Got it. And so did you apply early decision to NYU?

Yep.

Nice. So that means you applied by November 1st, and you got in by the middle of December and you were done.

Yeah. Basically what happened was, like, I, like, set up everything because I was like, okay, I'm gonna apply to NYU first, and I'm gonna have all these other applications ready. So, like, if I have to, like, do extra stuff to apply, if I don't get a full ride, I'll do that. But once I saw I got a full ride, I was like, all right, I'm done. I'm not applying anywhere else.

So. Did you have to? Did you have to. I know my. I had to wait to. My dad was sitting with me in a McDonald's parking lot, I remember, and he said, you know, if you get into Stanford, I don't think you're gonna be able to go. We're not gonna be able to pay for it. So I had to wait and wait and wait for my financial aid to come through. And then I was like, oh, thank God. Oh, yes. They gave me money. Right. Was that the same thing for you? You had to wait. Do you apply to a specific scholarship or was it just filling up?

No, it was just, like, when I saw that I got accepted, I looked at the financial aid, and. Because I already gave it, and it was. It was a full ride, like, Because I didn't even realize it at first because I was just like, okay, that's a lot of money. But. But what does that mean?

Well, it's amazing because NYU is well known to be one of, if not the most expensive college in America. So thank you very much. Nyu.

Yeah.

Let me ask you about. You know, traditionally, the video game industry has been traditionally male. I would say probably traditionally white males. White men. I am one. But, you know. But it's. Is it. Have you found nowadays that it's still a challenge not being in the majority to get into the industry or being accepted, or is it better now?

I'd say it depends on a lot of different things. So, for example, like, when it comes to, like, people of different genders, sometimes they don't accommodate, like, you know, being like, oh, what pronouns do you want to be referred to as? And what, this and what that do you want? I think that specifically sometimes, like, people can get in the industry, but then it's hard for them to stay there because then, like, some studios have just toxic culture or some studios just don't, like, because they're, like, used to just having, like, the majority there. Once they have someone who's not of the majority, they can't, like, feel comfortable and they can't, like, connect with other people. So I feel like, yeah, it's like the studio, the games industry definitely has a lot of work to do, but I also feel like there's a lot of game developers out there. There are a while a wide, diverse amount of of game developers out there that just people don't know about.

Got it. And so do you think that over the next 10 years, it's going to continue to evolve and change?

Yeah, and I hope that it changes for the better.

Well, I know, to be honest with you, that's why I love this podcast, because I want to get the message out there. We've had girls on who, or I should say women, but now because they're in their 20s, everybody's younger than me. But, you know, there are women out there who are in stem, who are in engineering. I've had authors on now we have game design, and they all have a message for other girls or other women who want to get into this and saying, listen, you can do this no matter what. You might be the only person in your calculus class in your high school, but that doesn't mean anything. I can serve as a model for you to show you the way. Yeah, that's my goal anyway. So thank you for. I appreciate it. No problem. So, you know, now you are actually in a video game program. Yeah, it's well known. And, you know, I was talking to you before, you also told me that you want to promote inclusivity around your games. Why is that?

So I just feel like, you know, like, it's hard to see a lot of people that are like, people of color. It's hard to see, like, bunch of LGBT people in games. And it's frustrating. And like, I feel like the main reason, like, that became like, my main focus is like, that sophomore year, like, end of sophomore year, beginning of junior year, like, time frame where I was trying to figure out how to make games on my own. I was finding online communities and I was finding games that other people are making, and I was like, wow, this is so good. Like, oh, my gosh. People, like, it's really sad because, like, some games that, like, are near and dear to my heart. A lot of people don't know about because. Because it's like created by these small creators online and things like that.

Right, right. And so what games have you designed in the last couple of years?

Oh, my goodness, that's a lot. So I guess, like, so after Green Hero, like I said, I made a character creator for a game jam called like, I Dream of ocs. Like, so I Dream of original characters. And then I made. I made this interactive fiction game called Saturday Fright. So, so it's like you're playing as this monster girl going to a party, but like every time you talk to someone it becomes like a battle and you have to like, type out the right words to like, attack and.

Yeah, that sounds like high school, actually.

That's.

Yeah, that's amazing. Okay.

Yeah, so I really enjoyed making that. A lot of people seem to like it, which I was like, oh, wow, thanks.

Well, how do you. How do they know about it? Like, how do they get access?

Oh, so it's like on the site called Itch IO. So that's usually where I like upload all of my games and like they host game jams on that site. So I submitted that game for like this monster type themed game jam that was happening in.

Got it.

And so then people like saw and like, like gave it like ratings and stuff and it was really nice.

That's cool.

Yeah.

Okay, so there's the monster girl.

Yeah.

What else? What else have you made?

So then after that was when I was like, I guess basically I was in this game jam called yuri jam in 2018. And so that was when I started making this game called Skate and Date, which would. I was like, all right, this is going to be like my main portfolio piece because, like, making a rhythm game is so hard. It is like bananas. And like, specifically like the teacher I had that year, he was like kind of trying, like, he wasn't trying to just give me the straight answer to like, figure out my problems. He was like trying to like, help me like understand like, specifically how sound works and how to like make things literally to the beat. And I like, got to learn a lot of cool audio stuff because of that, which was nice.

That's cool.

But yeah, so basically I was like, all right, I really love rhythm games. So like, things like that's Guitar Hero or Dance Dance Revolution and stuff. I like roller skating. And I was like, all right, I'm gonna just put them together. Together. And so that's how Skate and Date came about, which is basically a Roller derby, rhythm game, dating, sim. So that's a lot of words. What?

But that I do not. I honestly, I do not think that's ever been done in the history of gaming. Those combinations of words together. Let me go back to ask what you. Roller skating. How did you get exposed to roller skating?

I feel like what I think is really funny is, like, my family likes to watch, like, old movies, like, over and over again. So I remember just, like, I have a vivid memory of just watching this movie called Roll Bounce. And I was like, oh, man. I like roller skating because, like, this movie's so cool, and, like, they're doing these cool dance battles, and so. But also, just sometimes for birthday parties, we would go roller skating at a roller rink, like, somewhere in Long Island, I think.

But, yeah, so I didn't know they still had those. That's awesome.

I think there's, like, one in Brooklyn, too, but I haven't been there. But, yeah, so that's how I was like, all right, I like roller skating. Let me, like, combine this stuff together. And so basically, you're playing as this high schooler named Maggie who's, like, dodging people to the beat of the music, like, when she's doing the roller derby stuff. But there's also a story to it because she's, like, trying to impress a girl on the other team.

I mean, I seriously kind of want to play that right now. I just want to. I just. I just do. I want to see what that's like. So is it. Have you finished that game?

It's not complete yet. It's, like, most of the way there, it's just been, like. I feel like, as of late, it's been even harder to balance things because I have, like, right now, like, essay, the program I went to. I'm working there. And then.

Nice.

I have school and then the game. And then I also have, like. I'm a part of this internship at the studio called Glow Up Games. So I'm, like, a programmer there, and I thought it was only going until the end of the fall semester, but they were like, hey, we want to keep you for the spring semester. Which I was like, oh, that's great. But now I'm like, okay, that's kind of awesome. Yeah. But now I'm like, how did you.

For those out there, how did you get that internship?

So basically, NYU sends out a lot of opportunities all the time. And so one of the professors at the game center was sending out, like, oh, I'm looking for internships for my studio. And so that's. I, like, applied and now I'm working there and it's been really cool.

So let me get this straight. So you are going to classes, you are volunteering back at the program that incubated you. Basically, you're going on an internship, and then in your spare time, you're making this rhythm game, which is one of the more complicated things to create.

Yeah. So, I mean, like, most of, like, the base stuff is done. It's just about, like, fixing bugs and polishing certain things that I'm working on right now because I really want to have it released for this year. Like, I've been working on it for three years now.

Wow.

Another thing like, that I didn't get to mention is, like, the program that I was a part of, like, they choose two seniors each year to launch a Kickstarter, which is like a crowdfunding campaign so people can get money and stuff. And so I launched my Kickstarter game that year. I was lucky enough to be chosen and, like, be one of, like, projects we love and stuff. It was crazy. But, yeah. So I. 1.

How much. How much money did you raise?

I feel like it was like 2000 something I cannot remember.

And what was that? That was to go to. To, like, be able to make the game.

Yeah. So basically to, like, I wanted to, like, officially release this. So, like, on Steam, like, there's a Steam page for it now because that's one of the official stores. Also to making any merchandise that I would send out to backers. And then also for, like. Like, I was able to, like, showcase at a lot of places.

And this was for which game?

Oh, Skate and Date.

Oh, this is for Skate and Date. So you ran the Kickstarter for this? Yeah, because that actually got to my. I was going to get to my next question, so. Thank you. Which is, you know, for people making a game out there, you've got this amazing game you've spent years making, and how do you get it out into the world? Right. And so you're saying that you put it on. There are different sites that can showcase the games, basically. And can you charge for the game or is it everything for.

Oh, no. Yeah, you can charge for games. Like, so far I've, like, just had everything free because, like, there were smaller games. There were games that are made while I was in high school. But yeah, for Skate and Date, when it's officially released, I'm going to be selling it, like, professionally.

Got it. And so. And then. So there's some marketing involved there too. So is that Instagram again? You have merch. How are you going to set the. To let everybody know about it? So other than this awesome podcast, well.

There'S like Twitter and Instagram, there's reaching out to like, let's Players on YouTube. Because that's like, I think that was like, like I reached out to some people when I was like getting ready to launch the Kickstarter because like, my teachers are like, this would be good practice because you'll have to do this later on. And then also reaching out to like, anyone who like, writes things about like indie games and things like that. So.

Yeah, got it. And I imagine that it makes sense to reach out to reviewers and people like that because you get in a relationship with them and you give them a little teaser, here's my Kickstarter campaign. And then when you finish the game, you're going to be able to go back to them and say, hey, would you check it out now?

Yeah.

You know, they're kind of already mini fans, hopefully.

Yeah.

Right. So that's, that's fantastic. And you're, you're only a sophomore now at nyu, right. So you've got two more years to work on things as well.

Yeah.

Do you have a big goal? Because I know or I've heard and you can speak to this. You know, the video game industry is weird.

Yeah.

You've got very, very big companies who make a lot of the games and then you have all these small little upstarts, whether it be individuals or small creative studios. What is it that you see yourself doing and what would be the best possible scenario?

Gosh, that's what I'm still like, kind of trying to figure out because it's like, I love doing like independent work and like working in small, like groups and things like that, but I've never gotten to experience like any AAA studios and things like that. I've been applying to internships, so I can like, figure out that and figure out if that's something I'd be interested in. But like, so far I'm still like, nope. I think I would be like, I would love to work at an indie studio or start my own, something like that.

Nice. And I can't wait to see. We'll follow up with you in two years when you graduate to see what the heck that you're doing. Let me ask you the questions that I ask every guest, which are, so how much of your success so far do you feel is natural talent and how much do you think is hard work?

So I feel like I feel like it's probably more hard work than natural talent because it's like, I guess for like my ideas, it's just like I'm just trying to think, I'm trying to just smash things together that I like, I'm trying like, I feel like a lot of games I'm sort of almost making for me that. But like what I like a lot of other people, like, you know, but then like I put in a lot of hard work by like, you know, for example, like with music stuff, I don't know a lot about music. So I'm like, all right, well I'll see if I can take classes at school or I'll practice and like look up YouTube videos. I'm like doing a lot of work, just trying to either get help from other people, get help from online practice on my own time and things like that. Yeah, so that's what I feel.

That's a great answer. So let me ask you the next one. If you could give advice to an 11 or 15 year old listening to this who might be interested in game design, what would it be?

I guess what I tell them is like one, see if there's any cool opportunities in your area. I know that there's girl make games, that there's girls who code. There's a lot of like, like middle school and high school programs for making games. I'd say like if you're in middle school or high schooler, like apply to the Games for Change student challenge. It doesn't hurt to try. It doesn't hurt to like, like have your, have this be your time to be like, all right, I'm going to make a game in scratch. People make games in scratch all the time. Which is like a website online that's free where you can drag and drop things to, you know, make games. I'd say definitely. Like what I'd also say is like, you know, maybe try to manage your time or, and don't be hard on yourself if you're like, all right, today I'm gonna learn how to program. And then you try and then you get frustrated and give up. Don't be upset that you gave up. Like, give yourself some time to like, like figure out what went wrong and then maybe think of like how you could approach that in a better way and things like that. Like especially like I have, oh, I have a 12 year old little brother right now and you know, if he wanted to make games, I would say, all right, I can like help teach you. Or I could be like, here's some resources that are online. Online has a lot of other stuff that you can, like, learn. I see people on forums sometimes being like, I'm 13 and I want to, like, learn C. So it's not hard. Just go and give things a try.

That's fantastic advice, because I've met a lot of kids over the years who do get started, and they, like, when you said in the beginning, like, beginning, you didn't know how to use Unity, and it's complicated, and it gets frustrating. They have this design to make a game, but they kind of stop because they kind of hit a wall. But it's okay that in the beginning, if you're making something that isn't amazing, that's the steps that you have to take in order to build to get to amazing. Even if you fail a bunch of times, that's the way that you learn.

Yeah. And I feel like one last thing I'll add is if anyone's listening for. From, like, New York or New Jersey or Connecticut and they can travel to Manhattan, like, that's the School of Interactive Arts. We have applications open all the time. You can come in the summer, you can come during the fall. You know? Yeah.

Nice. You're a good spokesperson. I understand why they wanted you. They wanted you part of it. Geneva, what is the biggest obstacle that you think that you faced so far in getting to where you are right now?

Ooh, like, the biggest obstacle just along my journey.

Yes.

Okay. So I feel like I'm very, very hard on myself sometimes. Like, for a while, like, when I first started, I was like, oh, yeah, I'm just, like, learning and it'll be fine. But, like, I know that after I submitted to the Games for Change competition, like, the second year in 2018, I, like, stop. I, like, once I, like, knew I got into college and I was done with high school and I graduated and stuff, I kind of just started dropping, like, the habits I had because I was like, all right, I don't have to be stressed anymore. But then I would be angry at myself for being like, oh, well, why aren't you planning all the things you need to do? While I was also, like, starting to work at SA, so I was working, like, 9 to 5 on, like, during the summer, since the summer classes are, like, five days a week. And I was exhausted, and I was like, oh, I should be making games. And I'm like, no, I need to sleep. And it's like, I feel like the obstacle is, like, learning that if I need to rest, I need. I need to rest. I need to like listen to my body or else it'll backfire and I'll just be sick and not working on stuff.

That is good advice actually. And you're also probably more creative when you're relaxed. Yeah, right. When you are taking care of yourself. It's hard to get those ideas flowing when you're stressed all the time.

Yeah.

Geneva, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate having you and we look forward to sort of tracking your progress in the years to come.

Alright. Thank you for having me.

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