Cancer’s Ketogenic Kryptonite with Patricia Daly

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You're listening to bulletproof radio with Dave Asprey. Today's cool fact of the day is that in 1931, the Nobel Prize was awarded to Dr. Otto Warburg for discovering that cancer cells have a different energy metabolism than normal cells in your body and. And that tumors feed on sugars. And in more recent years, researchers figured out that cancer cells not only feed off glucose and fructose, they also use fructose to divide and multiply. It's one of the reasons that a ketogenic diet can be effective against cancer. And we've learned now that tumor cells can't use ketones because they just can't use oxygen that way, which is very interesting. Before we get going on today's show, if you haven't had a chance to check out the new bulletproof collagen bars, it's time. We've got upgraded chocolate and vanilla max. And These things have 11 grams of protein. And this is protein that doesn't have the inflammatory amino acids that you probably get too much of. Collagen is a building block for joints and skin, but they also have brain octane in them and only 2 grams of carbs that come from cashews. So what you end up getting is something that helps you stay in ketosis and get in ketosis and actually raises ketones more than they should. But it tastes amazing and it turns off hunger for crazy amounts of time. So if you haven't had a chance to try the new bulletproof collagen bars, I'm telling you, you will never, never want to eat another kind of bar again because you just. They turn off food cravings. They turn off hunger in a way I've never experienced. It took two and a half years to formulate these because collagen is a weird material. And you'll love them. You can get them on bulletproof.com now. Today's guest is Patricia Daly. She's a certified nutritionist, therapist, and an author based in Dublin, Ireland. She's worked with cancer patients around the world using a mix of traditional and complementary methods. Is a member of the British society for integrative oncology and had cancer herself. She hacked her own cancer. She had eye cancer and got rid of it. And she did this with the power of ketones and a few other tricks. Patricia, welcome to the show.

Hi, Dave. Thanks a million for having me.

It's my pleasure. Because you've done something interesting. It's one thing to say, oh, I'm a cancer researcher. There's lots of people doing research on cancer. In fact, sometimes I wonder why. Why have we not solved this problem yet? Because there's so many people working on it. But at least we're all, like running in circles and things like that to raise money for awareness of cancer. Maybe, but who's going to do something about it? And there's nothing like having cancer to motivate you to do things. And it's similar for me. Nothing like having obesity and realizing recommendations simply don't work and then doing something about it. So I was really intrigued by your story there and I wanted to get a chance with you, a chance to talk about it with you, tell me about what happened. Like, how did you become a cancer hacker here?

Yeah, I mean, as you said, I basically I tried the conventional route and then when this didn't really have the desired results, that's when I started to hack the cancer. Yeah, exactly. So I was diagnosed with malignant melanoma in the eye at the age of 28. So that's exactly eight years ago now. And yeah, initially, really didn't much have an idea of what I actually was getting myself into. And the treatment was very rough. I had a radioactive plaque stitched to the eye for four days. And initially it worked really well. The tumour shrank fairly quickly. But then I had a relapse about 20 months later. I mean, the tumour, just within the space of a few months, it just grew so aggressively that I had to have surgery again. And this time I had then proton beam therapy, another form of radiotherapy, but much more aggressive. And that was in 2010. And so far, so good. I mean, obviously I had a lot of side effects. It is full on treatment. And the tumor had moved so close to the optic nerve that they had to radiate the optic nerve. And they said, okay, you know, chances are, I mean, it's pretty much guaranteed. That's what they told me. Expect to lose your vision within sort of 12 to 18 months. And then fast forward to 18 months later. I had nearly lost my vision. But not only that, there was a lot going on in the eye. I mean, I had oedema, I had excessive angiogenesis, so the growth of lots of blood vessels. And I had cataracts, I had the onset of glaucoma. So the pressure in the eye was rising. And my consultant said, okay, we need to do something. There are two options. We can try Avastin injections. So Avastin is an angiogenesis inhibitor straight into the eye or. Or then if that's not working out down the line, you have to look into getting the eye removed, and it's when you're very young. I had two very young kids at the time. My son was eight months and my little girl was two and a half. And being faced with a decision like that, on top of obviously all the chaos that young children bring, it wasn't easy. But in a way, probably it saved me as well that I really started to research. I mean, I had started looking into the ketogenic diet in 2011 already, just to suss out my options. And my consultant kept saying, just don't do anything radical.

Have some sugar. Don't do anything radical.

So I had a very. I mean, to make that very clear, I had a really clean. Was, you know what? We sort of in mainstream medicine look at a very good diet. I mean, I started studying nutritional therapy a month after finishing radiotherapy in 2008. So, you know, I had some idea, but obviously the whole notion of ketogenics, that's just not taught in colleges. It's starting to be taught, but at the time, forget about that. So I did, you know, the usual. Lots of juicing, whole grains, loads of vegetables, meat. I pretty much ditched a little bit of oily fish, just, you know, the usual. So it was a very. I didn't have any processed foods, I didn't have any treats as such, you know, that would, you know, cake and biscuits and stuff. So it was really pretty decent diet. But then in 2011, I started researching and being from Switzerland, I turned to a lot of the German research, which was very much at the forefront at the time. So Johannes Koi, Ulrike Kemmerer from Wurzburg, and Rainer Clement, he came on the plan as well. So at the time, Tom Seyfried and Dominic d', Agostino, they weren't as present online. So it was mainly the German research. And then I just gave it a go. My consultant said as well, okay, off you go. Try your radical thing. And we keep an eye on the eye, literally. And I had to go in for monitoring. And that's the. I think it's fascinating with eye tumors and people just look at me, wow, you're a weirdo. But I find it's fascinating because you can actually watch the tumor. I think it's the only type of cancer, one of the only ones where you can actually look into and see, wow, what's going on. And literally, it was probably four or five weeks after I started, I went back in and my consultant Sat down, he looked into the eye and he sort of said, wow, it looks like the calm after a big storm. What are you doing? And it really. He said, it's almost similar effects to Avastin, you know, really reducing inflammation and angiogenesis and all of that. That was pretty much. That was it. I mean, I didn't do it perfectly at the beginning. I was, you know, struggling because there weren't. There were hardly any recipes. The ones I had were very much dairy based, nut based. And it wasn't anything like the ketogenic diet that I follow now. But, you know, it's. I started with about 60 grams of net carbs a day, so I just basically split 20 grams with each main meal. And that was pretty much what I was doing, but it still worked. So even though it wasn't a radical ketogenic diet, which I find very interesting in hindsight now with what I know, and. Yeah, and I had an extra ocular tumor as well that was forgotten about and that completely. It didn't respond at all to radiotherapy. It just stayed the same size. And I had a CT scan last year because it was forgotten to be monitored, and it's completely gone. It just disappeared. Yeah. And that was outside the eye, so I don't know if it's classified as an eye tumor or a brain tumor. Not sure. So rare. Yeah.

About five years ago, I had breakfast with a guy who swore me to secrecy, but he's CEO of a very sizable company, and he'd been diagnosed with inoperable pancreatic cancer. This is what killed Steve Jobs. And this guy's definitely a biohacker, because the day of the diagnosis, he's like, oh, I'm going in ketosis, like, all the way in ketosis. And it took him about six months to shrink his tumor until it became operable. He never told anyone. He never told his family. He never did. He basically went into the hospital after it was operable, stayed in ketosis the entire time, had it operated on. And ketosis speeds recovery. Right. So he was basically back up on his feet in a few days and kept doing things and completely eliminated his cancer. It's one of those things where he did a bunch of other stuff as well. But you look at stories like that, that's supposed to be impossible, like, for you to just get rid of this cancer outside your eye that might have been brain cancer that people forgot to pay attention to. You're like, oh, it just kind of went away. That's kind of cool. Like, I hope listeners listening to this go just realize how profound ketosis could be for cancer. Why is it so successful in cancer?

Yeah, I mean, the reason why the ketogenic diet was formulated, we have to go back to the sort of 1920s, when they realized that epileptic patients who were sick and had to fast, that they stopped having seizures. So they realized, oh, fasting could be really good for epileptic patients. It does something to their brain. And that's how they actually came up with the ketogenic diet. It's a diet that mimics fasting, basically. And I guess, you know, there's. There's so much research now coming out on the whole fasting as well. How much benefit in terms of inflammation, oxidative stress, and also, you know, lots of other aspects in terms of autophagy. So getting rid of rubbish in layman's terms. And that's basically probably one of the powers of the ketogenic diet. And I think it's reductionist to say it's just about blood sugars. And once blood sugars are low, then the cancer cells can't be fed anymore. And end of the story. And they say, that's too simple. And I say, yeah, of course it's too simple. It's a lot more. The ketogenic diet has effects, so many different pathways. And I heard Dominic d' Agostino recently talk in a podcast that there's probably. I think there's around 20 that we know of, but there's at least as many that we probably don't know of yet.

20 pathways for ketones to affect cancer or just in general?

Yeah, mainly also in terms of cancer as well. There are so many pathways that are important for cancer, like insulin, like growth factor and ampk. Then how that's affected as well, you know, the list goes on and on. Antigenesis, as was very well demonstrated in my example, as well. We also know that the ketogenic diet has an effect on gene expression. So there's quite a lot of research going on there because that's obviously linked to cancer. So there's a lot we still need to discover and we need more research. Definitely.

Well, there's a convenient thing about ketosis, and for listeners who have never been in ketosis, there's an easy way to experience a little bit of it. When you do bulletproof coffee made with the right ingredients, Brain octane is the largest source of exogenous ketones. Probably that's sold right now because so many people put it in their coffee. So if you don't have a Bowl of corn flakes with it. You can raise your ketones enough to feel the effects on your metabolism just by having a cup of bulletproof coffee with brain octane in it. In fact, if you're watching on YouTube, I'm drinking my morning one right now. It's got collagen, which is free of methionine, or almost free of methionine, which is one of the amino acids associated with extra cancer. I'm not saying methionine causes cancer. I'm saying if you get too much of it, it contributes to inflammation that contributes to cancer because inflammation lowers your mitochondrial function. But the difference in the quality of my life from having some ketones present is enough that I probably don't have cancer right now. I have no idea. But I can tell you I like how I feel when I do that. And part of what I'm doing with bulletproof is just showing people, look, you're a better person when you have more energy in your cells. And the fact that you're probably not going to get cancer when you have more energy in your cells is a side effect. And if you have cancer and you've heard this podcast or someone you know does, there's no excuse for not going into ketosis. I mean, you can talk to your doctors and decide if there's some strange corner case. But I would challenge a doctor to find a reason why you shouldn't try ketosis if you have cancer that's threatening your life. Ketosis is not dangerous compared to dying.

Yeah, I mean, that's the whole debate. I mean, you probably saw or I hope you got a chance to look at the book that we just published, the Ketogenic Kitchen that I published with Dominique Kemp. And the backlash we got is quite amazing. You know, it's so in Ireland, mainly.

In Ireland and uk, there's a lot of very weird. Like, I'm just gonna be a little bit rude here. There's a lot of very fat politicians. And the British, I think they call them the British diabetic. No, I'm sorry. Dietetic association that give you recommendations to make you diabetic. And they just come out there. Anytime someone says high fat, they always, like, stand up and kind of waddle around about it. And I'm done with those people. Like, I hope they're listening. And, like, everyone listening knows what you guys are doing. Like, you cannot hide. Okay. And we're not gonna be polite about it, even though that's, like, the UK thing to do. No, sorry. Don't tell people to eat sugar. It's bad for them. Okay, sorry.

You know, it is, it's very obviously it's a very new concept, especially here. I think you guys in the States, you probably. And especially also in, you know, in Germany, Switzerland, you know, you go to clinics, they're sort of, wow. We've been doing that for a long time and it's just, you know, it's not even talked about. And obviously in integrated clinics, not sort of in the mainstream. Was. Yeah, it's, it's just, it is intriguing how, you know, ketogenic diet is dangerous and how they. I think there's still this massive mix up with ketoacidosis, which I find really sad, you know, that we haven't moved on. And that's one of the, I think that's one of the beautiful things about the ketogenic diet. We have a safety record from epilepsy and in epilepsy we have the randomized control control trials. But I know for a fact that in epilepsy we were actually, you know, about 10 years ago we were at the exact same stage than we are with cancer now. You know, everybody said you're crazy doing this with epileptic patients. There is no, it's not safe. There is not enough evidence. And I think we just have a bit of, you know, catch up to do in terms of the clinical trials. But it is happening and it's no point just sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the evidence that we have at the moment.

It's one of those things where doing chemotherapy versus trying ketosis, maybe even ketosis and chemotherapy together.

Exactly.

They're willing to do some stuff that is incredibly shockingly toxic for a 5% improvement in outcome. And it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. And the difference is really not that big. And it creates enormous suffering. You don't really suffer very much by trying ketosis. You might have sugar cravings for a couple days as you get into ketosis and then you don't care about food. It's awesome, right? The downside is so small, but I.

Think we have to sort of take it from an approach. Okay, let's try and combine ketosis with conventional treatments because that's the only way to really get it into mainstream. And Adrienne check in Arizona, she's doing absolutely amazing work with her team showing how ketosis, or even just giving it can be exogenous ketone bodies. I mean, we don't know, but that's what they have been doing in pre clinical trials. And what effects does that have on radiotherapy and chemotherapy and the results are astonishing. And Colin Champ, he does a lot of research as well. Ryan Clement, he even just, you know, even just having, like you said, with the bulletproof coffee or a shake that raises your glucose in the morning before you go into radiotherapy, that can make a difference that people don't have to put their, put everything, you know, just in terms of diet. They have to absolutely, radically change everything. With some, sometimes it's not realistic. With somebody who has to start treatments, it can be just too much to face treatment, to completely overhaul your diet, to have things in your fridge that you've never ever even heard about or seen before. So it can be a lot. So I think we have to really take steps and take measures now to start integrating it into the mainstream. And in my view, that's the way to go.

It is. And you're definitely a voice for pushing that. And we know a lot about cancer treatment. So if I had cancer right now, I'd be cranking out my ketones, I'd probably be minimizing my carbs more than I am now. And I would be talking with cancer specialists about what's most likely to work. I'd also be doing aggressive antifungal therapy because there's great evidence for that. But hyperbarics and things like that, the last thing I would do is, is just go on a special diet and hope my cancer goes away. Like that's the ostrich thing for cancer there you look at all of the things that are likely to make you get better and you probably can.

Yeah, I mean it's a whole cocktail of different things. As you mentioned, hyperbaric oxygen has been shown to enhance the effects of ketosis. And there's so many other things that I've just learned bit by bit and that I'm, I mean, I keep changing things and tweaking and implementing, doing more testing and okay, how can I actually make this really sustainable especially and really optimize? And I've just recently started to exercise a lot more again. I used to be a semi professional triathlete and trained a lot, endurance training, the usual stuff, and then carb loading till the cows came home, which sometimes I wonder, okay, was that a good thing to do? But anyway, that's the past and I'm just trying as well. I haven't been exercising intensely ever since I was diagnosed, so I'm only just recently now. Since end of last year, I've started to see, okay, what effects does that have on ketosis? And how do I have to adapt? And it's really almost like starting from scratch again, which is exciting. Yeah.

Are you going to stay in ketosis forever?

I do really well on it and I keep monitoring. I have to go for regular ultrasounds of the whole abdomen as well, because one thing with malignant melanoma in the eye is that it likes to spread to the liver. That's sort of the first organ that it would go for, and to some extent also spine or bones. So I do regular ultrasounds as well and just to make sure everything is fine. And you know, some people say, well, kidney stones can be an issue or, you know, in terms of digestive function. And there's absolutely. I mean, it's really so clean there. I mean, the girl who does the ultrasound, she's always, wow. It's just really all very, very clean, your liver and kidneys and everything. So absolutely not an issue. So as long as I'm not running into trouble and my markers are all great, I mean, I'm doing my bloods regularly and check on other things, so there's no reason why I wouldn't be.

This is a fantastic opportunity to ask you some more personal questions if you're up for it. I've been talking about ketosis for a long time and there's hundreds of thousands of people who've tried the bulletproof diet. And it's a cyclical ketogenic diet where I say every week or two come out for a day. And one of the populations that seems to benefit the most is women, because some women, in fact, I would say more than half of women from a non scientific sample size, but just observationally, tend to get adrenal dysfunction or hormonal irregularities if they stay in ketosis all the time. But there are others who just like, I've been in ketosis for 10 years and I love my life and I don't know know what the difference between them is. It's probably genetic. I don't know what else it could be. But have you had any problems with hormone levels or adrenal dysfunction when you've been in ketosis for a long time?

I mean, it's very interesting, it's an interesting question because I think my hormones due to my sports have always been, let's put it that way, I've been lagging behind. So I think I was 18 when I had my first period. So totally a lot of things going wrong. And I was also thinking, you know, when I first researched it, oh, is that going to work for me? Because I obviously have this history of hormonal imbalances, clearly. And it's, it's really interesting how my cycle is just perfect. I mean I can literally almost, I can almost set my watch. Yeah. And, and I, I had never experienced that before on a, on a carb based diet.

Was PCOS part of, part of your issue?

I don't think so, no. Which would be. Yeah, I mean there's some good studies into pre clinical studies into PCOS and keto. Yeah. But I don't think. But estrogen dominance, I could almost swear that was an issue.

Got it. It's interesting when we look at ketosis and cancer and then hormones, because hormones have an effect on cancer and ketosis has an effect on hormones. And this is why hacking the human body, it's a complex system and so much of research is like, well, I'm going to look at adrenals. It's like, well, they're controlled by the brain, the brain's controlled by mitochondria. And you just kind of look at this where you look at using 10 different modalities for cancer all at the same time. And the researchers and the experts, well, this is my modality and this is the only system I work on. Like, yeah, but I wanted all of those effects at once because it's a complex system. Do you ever wonder about that?

Definitely. I mean, I wonder how in oncology we're so focused on the tumor, what is the tumor doing and how is the tumour affected by this or that? And I think that's part of the problem of our medical system at the moment. It's this compartmentalizing and just looking at one system alone and not being aware of the knock on effect it has on the entire body. And that's why I love functional medicine, which really connects it all and joins the dots, basically. And for me it's always been clear the more I learned about cancer and I studied it very intensely and read a lot of things about it, it's a very, there's no one reason, so why should there be one treatment and one thing that works? So it's so multifaceted that we have to really attack it from so many different angles. And I'm talking especially also about emotions and, you know, sort of creepy stuff like energy. I'm a strong believer in stuff like that. But also looking at, you know, when we talk about hormones, when I get emails from my clients at 3 o' clock in the morning, okay, what are you doing at 3 o' clock in the morning on Your computer, you should be sleeping. And there's some really simple things that people just don't know or they. They're not aware of them and they can make a huge difference. And it's just piecing all this together. And I think as nutritional therapist or any practitioner, you really have to be aware of this. And. Okay, where do we start? Of course, that's always the big question. But as you say, you know, everything then has a lot of implications. And I always had to laugh when my oncologist was in the uk. He's in San Francisco now. And when I went for checkups, he usually came in and asked, so how's the eye? And I sort of. I am fine, thanks. It's just, it's.

That's a great. That's a great line.

The accessory of the tumor is fine. You're going to tell me now what the tumor is doing and how the eye is doing. But it's so funny that. Just get completely focused on the body part where the tumor is. And we know that the environment is equally important. The environment of the tumor.

That leads in two very different directions. For the next question I want to ask you, I've got to make sure I remember both of these questions. One of them, let's talk about the environment. I am particularly concerned about blue light exposure and cancer and macular degeneration in people. I manufacture filters that I have on my phones that take out some of the blue light. The stuff that most suppresses melatonin. And we know melatonin is anti cancer, so if you're staring at a bright white iPhone before you go to bed or Android, it doesn't really matter, then you're suppressing melatonin. And melatonin in part helps you not get cancer. So you shouldn't be staring at bright white lights and you really should be wearing dark glasses and dimming your phone and doing all sorts of crazy stuff. How important do you think light is on the skin and in the eyes when it comes to cancer and cancer metabolism?

I think it's hugely important. Yeah. Not just for eye cancer, but obviously particularly for eye cancer. And yeah, you mentioned melatonin, which is one of the major antioxidants as well, and hugely anti cancer. So I know a lot of cancer patients who actually supplement melatonin. And yeah, I think it goes a lot further. I think there's so many effects of light and especially light exposure. I think it's both extremes. Getting the light exposure in the morning, first thing in the morning. And obviously here in Ireland, It's a little bit trickier sometimes, but it's still bright. Obviously, it's the brightness and trying to turn towards the sun and just having. Having that in the morning, it's almost like, okay, we're awake now. And then obviously in the evening. Yeah, just reducing that blue light. And I mean, it's interesting that the World Health Organization, they classify shift work or irregular sleep patterns as a probable carcinogen. And I think that says it all. You know, if somebody. I was at the. Recently at a cancer talk, and it was organized by the Irish Cancer Society, and somebody asked about, so how important is sleep? And, you know, the person doing the talk said, oh, well, we're not quite sure. It could have some impact.

Good God.

Well, the WHO is super conservative and.

We need more evidence.

Yeah, we need more evidence. We need more randomized controlled trials to actually show how the effect of blue light can really affect us in terms of cancer especially. So, yeah, I'm a strong believer in it. And also, I don't know if you're familiar with Dr. Jack Cruz, so he's doing a lot of research into light and he's actually convinced mostly Nick Lane.

It seems like whenever I read Nick Lane's work, Nick is the one who's originating a lot of the.

Could be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not 100% sure. I'm listening to some of his. And it's interesting, you know, how it affects.

Nick was the originator of a lot of this stuff because he wrote a big paper in 2013 around eyes specifically and light and mitochondria. That kicked a lot of that off. So I'm a huge fan of just going to the source on that stuff.

Yeah. So I've only very recently actually started to really look more into it, especially when it comes to receptors in the eye and all of that and how it affects us. So it's an area with huge potential when it comes to ketosis, especially as well, how to optimize ketosis for you.

After this, I'll send you Nick's paper because it's specifically about mitochondria in the eye and around how light changes mitochondria. So he's one of the top thinkers. Nick Lane and Ling are the two who I go to because there's so much going on with the color of light. I have red lights, I have for years in the house at night instead of amber or instead of these other things and wear unusual colored lenses and just do all this because, like, the evidence is out there around sleep quality around circadian signaling and specifically around what happens with cellular production, with cellular energy production in the eyes and just in the body. But I'm profoundly concerned about macular degeneration, much less cancer, because of the changes we've had with LED lighting. And it's one of those things when I hear like an alternative cancer researcher say, oh, it's about. Say it's about your food. It is about your food. It's absolutely about your food. And if you eat junk food, your chances of getting cancer go up. But if you eat junk food or you get rid of your junk food and you're still living with junk light, the odds of getting cancer are really, really profound. So I look at junk light as a problem, one that I manufacture stuff to help reduce the impact on myself. But I simply don't believe that that light is more important than food. What is most important is food, and light helps to modulate what your body does with it.

Yeah, yeah, I agree.

Do you see cancer researchers in the next 20 years telling people, well, okay, you've got to change your diet to be in ketosis? Do you think that's going to happen in your life?

20 years?

I'd say your life is probably longer than 20 years, but yeah, no, I shouldn't say your life in 20 years.

I sincerely hope so. And I think we're going in the right direction because there are so many really brilliant people working at it and motivated, passionate people working on it. And there is, I think the pre clinical data has become too compelling to simply ignore it. And I mean, whether it's going to be applicable for all types of cancer, I think that's the other thing. We have to really study very hard which types of cancer respond best to the ketogenic diet. You know, if we could find something, you know, and I know in some. I was at a conference in Fulda in Germany last November, and they're starting to do metabolic typing of tumors. And I think that's where it's going, you know, okay, is that tumor mainly predominantly glutamine dependent or glucose dependent or a mix of the two or none? You know, there are probably tumors that, you know, don't respond to the ketogenic diet. We just simply don't know enough about it yet and we have to study it. But if somebody says, well, you know, I'm not trying the ketogenic diet, I have cancer because it's not safe, then that's not an argument. The safety argument is simply not valid. So that's why I think, you know, Any practice or any patient who has the support and who has the energy and the motivation. Motivation to do it. I strongly encourage them to study and look into it. Definitely, yeah.

Having cancer is not safe. We've established that.

No, it's not very pleasant. It's not my list of good life experiences.

That's a great tweet. Having cancer is not safe, but it's what it comes down to. When they say ketosis might not be safe when you have cancer, you're like, yep. But it probably is. Right. Because living isn't safe when you have cancer either. Like, you've got to solve the problem.

It's all a matter of perspective, isn't it? Yeah.

So that was one question about light and the environment of cancer, where it's a question of food and temperature and light and air pressure and oxygen and all the things that you can change as a biohacker if you want to. You can change light, change the pressure, sit in an ice bath, get in a hyperthermia chamber. And I find almost no focus on those things in mainstream cancer research, even though it seems like they should be. But the other thing you mentioned, though, is you mentioned energy and emotions and things like that, and I'm all over that. One of the biggest bulletproof recommendations I have is really expensive. It's that every night before you go to bed, write down three things you're grateful for, because gratitude, it changes your sympathetic nervous system, which changes your metabolic state. It actually does, yeah. Do you meditate? Do you have a practice of some sort around managing your emotions? And do you think it has any impact on cancer?

Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting question because I actually started chanting when I was diagnosed because I simply. I didn't just want to sit at home and twiddle my thumbs. I couldn't work, obviously, for a long time because I literally couldn't look into the computer without having some major reaction, meaning I had to throw up. So it took a while for the brain to resettle. Yeah. And to get used to looking into screens, reading without. For a long, long time. So I was sort of, okay, what am I going to do? Chanting. And I was always drawn to Buddhism. And funny enough, a lot of my friends here in Dublin, they were actually practicing. So that's what I started. And I did quite a bit at the beginning, morning and evening routine. And now it's more sort of moved towards. I do emotional freedom technique and I do more sort of walking meditation. So in the morning, after dropping the kids, I walk home through a nice Little forest. And that's where I do sort of the grounding and just being basically. And breathing. So it's for me, sort of. I can't really have sort of a really strong practice. It's really in terms of time management as well, with two small kids and all of that. So incorporating it into my day. And also breathing techniques I use a lot and just basically just coming back from time to time to, okay, where am I? And just stop being all over the place and being totally immersed in work and just drag myself out of that. And especially running really helps. And exercise helps me big time. So these are sort of my main techniques that I try to really incorporate. And emotional freedom technique I do as well.

For listeners, Emotional freedom technique is also known as tapping. You can check out the tapping solution. It's a part of tapping. And I've seen profound changes in people without cancer from EFT or from tapping. And also from emdr, which sometimes uses tapping, but doesn't. These are ways of addressing those core emotional traumas that affect our metabolism. Like, for lack of a better word, it's awesome that you've gone down all of those paths. And you mentioned grounding. I started talking about that as a treatment for jet lag. Like in 2010. I started blogging about it and people thought I was nuts. Now it's a little bit more accepted. A lot of people have kind of glommed onto that idea. Way back in the day, though, it was considered pretty weird. But I would fly from San Francisco to Cambridge, England, every month. I would spend a week there, which is just horrible jet lag, like some of the worst you can do flying east like that. And I was doing all these experiments, like, okay, if I get there, do I fast on the airplane or not? Do I exercise in the morning to raise my body temperature? And one time I exercised in the morning, the one time it was actually sunny in the uk, I get there, there's a park, right? So I probably got some sun exposure, but I probably had sunglasses on, so it didn't count. But I did yoga in the park and I was earthing. And I just remembered this was in 2008 or so before earthing had really come out. And I remembered, okay, exercise works. But it wasn't ever exercise. It was the earthing, the grounding that worked. And that was why I wrote about that early on. And last time I was in Germany, I was there outside the hotel with my feet on the grass. It's, you know, 40 degrees outside Fahrenheit and just kind of cold. But you do it because it works. Right? And you mentioned that you do that when you go for walks. You take off your shoes and go for a walk somewhere and meditate all at the same time.

Yeah, I guess I actually grew up sort of not wearing shoes that much. And my mom is still. She's even in the deepest winter, she's usually barefoot.

Is that a Swiss thing?

I don't know if it is. I don't think so actually. Does it sound Swiss, a family thing? Yeah. And I'm actually. I've sort of probably just taken. Taken this habit as well. And I like to be barefoot for whatever reason. It must make me feel better, otherwise I guess I wouldn't do it sort of subconsciously. So. Yeah. And also just. Just walking in, in the garden and. Yeah, it's. I think it just helps even just connecting. I mean whatever you call it, if it's earthing or grounding, I think it definitely, it is a great thing. But some people, they probably would feel a bit weird taking up this. I mean, I'm on my own there in the morning, there's hardly anybody coming that way. So it is okay. But I think it's just this connection with nature that I really crave and it's always been there, but I think with cancer it's become even more pronounced. And obviously growing up in Switzerland and with pretty much a view to the mountains from the classroom, that I think is just an innate thing as well that I have. Yeah. And that really helps.

It's hard to quantify that because it's double blind trials for nature exposure. They're all very forced and weird. But anyone who tries it for a while realize nature is a pretty potent drug in and of itself. Right?

Yeah.

Good thing they can't write prescriptions to keep you from getting it.

Yeah, that's exactly it. And I had to move a bit from the mountains to the sea now. So whenever I get a chance I go swimming in the freezing Irish Sea. And initially I found it really hard to even just get in the water. And now I'm pretty used to it and I get in very quickly and I probably. I managed to stay up to sort of of 20, 30 minutes sometimes. And yeah, it's so life enhancing. It's absolutely fabulous.

There's lots of good reasons to do that. I'm not far from a cold ocean, but it's just long enough that it takes too long to get there and back. When I have kids I have cryotherapy though, so I have the liquid nitrogen that cools the air, right?

Yeah.

I used to weigh 300 pounds, 50% more than I do. I don't know how many stone that is, but it was a lot of stones. And I. And I had toxic mold exposure, which inhibits mitochondrial function way more than light or bad food, actually, like, it's a direct mitochondrial poison and chronic Lyme disease and all these things. I don't have those anymore. Occasionally I breathe some mold or something, but, like, it reverses very quickly. So I just do all this stuff because I'm planning to live to 180. Like, when you realize how much control you have of your metabolism, like, oh, my God, this is awesome. But. But when we talk about this, you're someone who's dealt with cancer and is looking at living a long time now that you've managed it, and you're making changes to your environment in order to have more control, in order to make your body and your metabolism do what you want. And what we do doesn't sound too dissimilar. I am 1000% convinced that controlling your mitochondrial function is one of the ways that you can stave off aging. And you can feel really good the whole time you stave off aging. So, like, that's what I do because I like my life this way.

And I think that's why it's so important that we start in cancer research, we start addressing this question, is cancer really a genetic disease, which I actually really don't believe it solely is, or whether it's a mitochondrial, a metabolic disease? And the work of Thomas Seyfried, who's based in Boston, is absolutely brilliant. And he's showing as well that the major hallmarks of cancer, you know, there's a direct link to the mitochondria as well. And it's just. It really saddens me and it's very frustrating that not more money is being put into researching all this when it comes to cancer. And that really, every single cent, almost is invested into finding more genetic mutations that we can possibly target with drugs. And, you know, when we see the potential that if we just shift that mindset and I mean, it's a chicken and egg situation. You know, what was it? The DNA mutation or was it mitochondrial damage? But Tom's. The nuclear transfer experiments, I'm sure. Are you. Are you familiar with them? I think they're absolutely mind blowing. When I first saw this, I was sort of holy Moses. I mean, this is just.

Some of our listeners probably aren't. Walk them through for listeners.

Yeah. So basically, they did experiments where they had. They had healthy cells, and when they replicate, you have two healthy cells, so nothing new. And then you have a cancer cell that is the nucleus is cancerous, and also the cytoplasm, so the area around the nucleus where the mitochondria are is cancerous too. So that replicates. And then you have a cancer cell. So not much surprise there. So what happens, though, if we transfer cancerous nucleus so with DNA mutations into a healthy cytoplasm? And that's really interesting because. Because then the cell replicates then, and basically then the DNA or the cell is still. Okay, it's functional, or it gets. It's being. Basically, apoptosis happens, but it's still a functioning cell, and the tissue is still working as well if the mitochondria are healthy. But what happens if the mitochondria are cancerous and there's a healthy nucleus with no DNA mutations? When that cell replicates, then basically the whole cell then becomes cancerous very quickly. I actually, we have it in our book as well. It's very nicely demonstrated there, also with colors and everything. It sounds a bit abstract when I explain it, but that sort of really shows. It demonstrates that, okay, mitochondria, they possibly protect the cell from DNA damage. And when the mitochondria. When something goes wrong with the mitochondria, then that's when we have a real problem when the cell replicates. And that's why it's frustrating that this is not sort of researched a lot more by mainstream cancer researchers.

There's so much going on. One of my areas of expertise is around mycotoxins, as well as just, like, fungal infections and water damage to our environment. One of the things that we now know mitochondria does, and this is going back to Nick Lane's work, mitochondria use photons for signaling between each other, like very brief bursts of light biophotons. And when you are exposed to microtoxins that inhibit respiration, okay, that can be cancerous. But if you have a fungal infection itself, it affects light signaling between the cells. So I'm a hacker by training, literally a computer hacker. And one of the things you do if you really want to hack a system is you mess up signaling between things. About 100 years ago, we decided that we're mostly chemical beings. This was kind of a big split in medicine, where half the people at the time thought we were electrical, half thought we were chemical, and we're both, and we're magnetic, and we're light based and all sorts of other things and it's all simultaneous. But it was that division where we focused, especially cancer research is chemical, chemical, chemical and now genetic. But they're forgetting about the signaling side. And as a hacker, it's like, well, that's how you disrupt a network, is you just get in there and you kind of gum up the way things talk to each other and pretty soon the whole thing falls down. And it seems like a pretty good descriptor of what's going on in cancer. So I look for things in the environment like light or like fungal toxins you breathe that break the mitochondria and say, what did that do to the whole system? Well, it kind of breaks it.

I mean, there's a care oncology clinic in London actually and they're looking quite a bit into antifungals as well. They're basically repurposing old drugs. So they're using a mix of metformin and then also antifungals and very low dose antibiotics in case there's anything else. And low dose statins as well. Very surprisingly. Which is surprising. Yeah. Which is very interesting that they're basically old drugs that aren't really. I think they can. They could potentially be patented again, but they've run out of patent and they're designing whole cocktails and then basically just tailoring them to the individual. And it also means that some people they. It actually makes it a lot easier to follow a ketogenic diet that they can have a little bit more carbs, obviously because they're on metformin as well. But it seems to, for some people it seems to just work incredibly well. And it's interesting that you mentioned the antifungals because it is definitely a big thing as well. I mean, it's not just. I can't remember the doctor's name who sort of came up with the theory is cancer fungus.

It was Av Constantini. Yeah, Av Constantini. I bought his books. They were $500 in about 2006 from his daughter and they had to ship them from Germany. But yeah, in fact, he's one of the people who's informed me the most in my exploration of how the body works. So it's amazing that you know of his work, but based on his work, if I had cancer tomorrow, I would be doing all the things we're discussing here, but I would also be doing oral amphotericin B, which is a very, very old antifungal drug. But it's one of the broadest spectrum, heaviest duty ones. Intravenously, it saves people with AIDS quite often if it doesn't kill them because it's so bad, but orally, it's relatively safe. I just don't know where I get it because it's hard to find. But that would be something that, if you have cancer, talk to your doctors if you're listening is what I'm saying. But there is definitely amazing research on what these things could do and whether those drugs are mitochondrial. I don't think anyone's. They've overlooked, but maybe they are. I don't know.

Yeah. And I think it's, again, it's the whole cocktail of things. I think relying on one strategy too much is probably not wise when it comes to cancer. And also I think constantly changing, it's such a dynamic process. Like some people, they say, oh, can you just design a ketogenic diet for me? Meal plans? And then I just keep repeating them. And I was, that's not really the way it should work. You have to adapt. You have to adapt to. You are changing all the time, your environment is changing all the time. So I think this is so important to just keep very flexible and adapting whatever protocols you have, especially with cancer patients.

One of my favorite guests on Bulletproof radio was Glenn from Alder Spring Ranch. This guy's a soil biologist turned grass fed cattle rancher. And he describes how he has 100 square miles where he grazes his cattle. And he says, well, the difference in my cows and his cows taste better is that his cows will look at the grass and they'll choose exactly the tuft of grass that's right for their body. So they're literally like, there's a difference between what's growing here and what's growing here, even if they're 10ft apart. So they're connected. They're kind of semi wild cattle. I think we have some of the same stuff going on with us too. Your body knows what it needs. And the ketogenic meal plan that one person just thrives on might not be quite right for another person. They might still need ketosis, but maybe they needed more broccoli, who knows? But if that's what your body wants, give it more broccoli. Broccoli is good for cancer too, right?

Yeah. And that's the thing. And there's also no one way of doing the ketogenic diet. I mean, like you say, some people absolutely thrive on cyclical, and others they're fine in deep ketosis. And then there's people who are actually doing really well on Just low carb. And they're not necessarily in ketosis or during, maybe in very, very sort of light ketosis after fast a little bit or, you know, so it's, it's really. There's. There's no one size fits all, definitely in the ketogenic diet. And I think we also have to be careful that we just don't constantly focus on the macros and that micronutrients are sometimes getting a little bit sort of forgotten about. For some people, they're just so focused on getting the macro, the carbs, fat and proteins. Right. That they forget. Okay. There's a whole range of other foods that we should include and sort of make ketogenic, obviously. So that's. I think that's very important. And that's what I work on a lot as well.

So let's talk a little bit more about, about macros, because I have a book, it's the Atkins Diet, the original first edition of his book. And I have it on the shelf around here somewhere because it came out the year I was born. And I'm like, oh, it's just a reminder that this knowledge has been out there. I was covered in stretch marks. I was obese, because that knowledge was completely ignored and shunned. Even though literally tens of millions of people lost £100 million on the Atkins diet before I was 12, it made a difference. It was the original ketosis diet used on a very broad basis. Even though we didn't know why it worked and it had mistakes in it. And you could eat cream cheese and pork rinds all day long, which I don't necessarily recommend. But what are the macros and what are the types of proteins maybe that. That people ought to avoid, even if they're hitting their macros?

Yeah, I mean, in terms of macros, what we look at is. And again, this depends if somebody has to lose weight or is gaining or has to gain weight. So that always obviously then makes a difference in terms of the fat intake. So if I work with somebody, it's obviously the goals determine then the macros. Especially also when it comes to. If somebody going to treatment, for instance, then I have to adjust protein probably a little bit. And with carbs as well, it's usually what I find is starting sort of reducing to 12 grams over maybe two weeks or so, depending on where they start from, obviously, and then keeping it at the 12 grams for a little bit. So that's usually. It's around 4% of total calorie intake, sort of on a standard ketogenic diet. And then protein is around sort of 12 to 15%, so not very high. And again, there's quite a bit of research at the moment being done into insulinogenic foods and protein rich foods. So that's, you know, the certain amino acids, as you mentioned earlier, are probably a little bit less preferable. But it's also interesting that there are certain foods that they have no carbs, but they raise insulin. And I think that's what like whey.

Protein and things like that or what do you think?

Yeah, yeah. And also in terms of the cheeses, there seems to be a bit of a difference. So the best ones seem to actually be the soft ones and then the very hard ones, some of them are a lot more insulinogenic. And then also beef seems to be more insulinogenic. Turkey apparently is, is highly insulinogenic.

Is it the tryptophan or something? Weird.

Okay, probably, probably, yeah. And I don't know how many really very, very solid studies are being done into this. And again, it's probably like the glycemic load where it is individual to some extent as well and people simply have to measure. But it still is interesting that there are certain proteins that obviously then in terms of the insulin that has an effect on the ketone bodies as well. So if insulin goes up, then the ketone bodies usually are affected as well. And so this is sort of things that people have to test. And I can eat certain cheeses and I see actually on the ketonics that my acetone, so what we measure in the breath, the ketone body, it seems to be affected, not for very long, but it is interesting. I'm using the ketonics just to test certain foods sometimes. And the longer I'm in ketosis though, the less it seems to really be a problem. So I think that also that's a very big question as well. How do we change the macros over time? So I'm probably back at about 50, 60 grams of carbs. Again, I'm not down at 12 anymore, so my macros have shifted a little bit. I also have a little bit more protein because I exercise more than I would have had when I was originally, when I started the ketogenic diet and I wasn't exercising and my focus was really on the tumor and getting it right for the tumor. So I think that's sort of the main thing. And then obviously fat, I always say it's the buffer. So it is, it is around sort of 75 to 80% of total calorie intake. But again, if somebody is Massively overweight. It's interesting that it's probably not really a super high fat diet, but you have to restrict calories a little bit somehow if they want to lose weight. Obviously not for all people, but for most. So that's the buffer then. So the fat intake really varies then from person to person. And I mean, some people I know, they can eat almost endless amount of fat and their weight stays stable or it doesn't seem to make a huge difference. And others, and I think especially women, they really have to, if they don't want to put on weight after a while on the ketogenic diet, they sort of have to keep a bit more of an eye on the fat intake, which is obviously, that's probably a controversial thing to say, but when I sometimes see, you know, oh, everybody has to eat more fat, like in the uk, you probably heard what's going on. Yeah. The past few weeks. And I think it can be also a bit of a dangerous message because people think, oh, I just put butter on everything, but I don't change anything else about my diet.

You know, that drives me nuts. Like, if you're gonna eat four croissants and wash them down with bulletproof coffee, you're not doing it right. There are basic things you've got to do around doing things. But that said, if you have bulletproof coffee, you probably won't want to eat four croissants. And that is a profound thing in and of itself. Right?

Yeah. Unless you have the four croissants first and then you're still hungry. That's the problem.

Yeah, it is a major problem. And my recommendations are really clear on that. Do bulletproof coffee, fat and protein in the morning. Don't eat carbs in the morning for anyone, even if you're not on, on any kind of special diet, just because it's inconvenient to be starving at 10:30. And it simply makes the quality of your life better when you do that. And if you're going to have your carbs, do them at lunch and more specifically towards dinner because they'll improve your sleep quality and you do this on a regular basis without any cravings. Okay, maybe you're fat, maybe you're not, but at least you have tons of energy all the time and that's a win.

Yeah. I think we have to be very clear with the message when sort of, I mean, we are moving with the public health collaboration and now in the UK we are moving towards, okay, something has to happen with the food pyramid and everything. And I think getting the message very clear is going to be very important to make sure people benefit.

Well, let's hope that this episode of Bulletproof Radio helps to make that message clearer. That being afraid of fat doesn't make sense. Being afraid of some fat does make sense and all proteins are not the same. And. And if you have cancer and you haven't thought about ketosis, you probably aren't considering all your options. I hope those messages are really clear.

Yeah, exactly.

I have one more question for you, and this is a question that every guest on Bulletproof Radio has answered one time or another. And it's if someone came to you tomorrow and said, look, I want to perform better at everything I do in life, this is someone without cancer, necessarily. But someone says, look, I want to kick ass at everything I do, what are the three most important things I should know? What would you have to offer them?

Stress levels, you know, finding way to manage stress, which is one of the things that is crucial for me. I find that as well. That's point number one. First we didn't talk about stress, but I think that's a huge one. Or managing stress. And the second one, it probably would be something diet related, definitely. So, yeah, starting with getting rid of junk food, depending on where they start from, and definitely looking at diet. And the third one, community. So make sure you surround yourself with people that actually. Yeah. That give you something and you give something back to them. That it's sort of. You have great relationships in your life. So that would be the three things.

Beautiful list. Patricia, where can people find out more about your work and specifically your book?

Yeah, my website is patriciadaily.com that's sort of the main site that then leads on to. I have a few really nice freebies as well when it comes to the ketogenic diet. So where people can actually just learn the basics and see. Okay, is this something for me for patients and practitioners? And that's on ketoforyou.com keto f O-R-Y-O u.com y-o u.com yeah, exactly. So the link that goes from Patricia.

Daly over there, Patricia Daly is P A T R I C I A daily D A L Y.

Right, exactly.

So all of that will be in the show notes. It'll be on the transcript of this. If you want to download the transcript or whatever else. But patriciadalY-A-L-Y.com that's right.

Yeah. And then we simply have for our book, the Ketogenic Kitchen. I actually have it here. It's the ketogenic. So and it's on. It's actually we're coming to the States in September. It's going to be published in the States with Chelsea Green.

Congratulations.

Yeah, thanks. So it's going to be on Amazon.com as well. At the moment it's just in the UK and on the book depository. But we're coming over now which is very exciting. Yeah.

If you're looking for some more recipes you can use that are high fat and lower in carbohydrate and delicious and full of vegetables, the kind of recipes I recommend, this is a good book to check out so I look forward to being able to get it in the U.S. thanks.

Yeah, great.

Thanks, Patricia. Have an awesome day.

Yeah, you too. Thanks a million again for having me. Dave.

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