EPISODE #1030: How to Get & Stay Sober—Even if You Don’t Think You’re an Addict – Luke Storey

You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey and if you're watching the video or hearing unusual licking sounds here, that's because I have a cookie on my lap. This is a gluten free cookie named Cookie, A wonderful kind dog who just happens to hang out most of the time with today's guest who is none other than Luke Story. Luke and I have known each other for a long time. He was a consulting coaching client of mine many years ago and has done 40 years as N and is a big voice in the biohacking movement and has really grown as a person since we started and changed from being the school of style into talking about a broad range of metaphysical and other biohacking things. And I wanted to chat with you today on the show mostly because we're in Austin and so it's easy to do guests together and we just did a podcast on your show and so guys, you, you should check out Luke's story show and listen to my interview there because we went to some really cool stuff I haven't talked about anywhere else because he asked good questions and so many. I want to talk about psychedelics and addiction and recovery because Luke has been very public about his history with addiction. And the reason you might say, oh, I don't care about this is like, I don't have addiction. You actually may. A lot of people have addictions that are just more socially acceptable, like a work addiction, sex addiction, gambling, social media. In fact, it's exceptionally common. But more importantly, what we're going to talk about in this episode is why and how your body does that and how it could possibly be. So I'm going to go deep on this with you. You're going to learn something about how you're wired in a way that's invisible to you. Plus, talking about psychedelics is always fun. I mean, it could be even trippy. Who would ever, who would ever get that?

It's certainly that.

My friend Luke, welcome to the show.

Thanks, man. It's good to be back. It's been a while since we, we dropped in on your show. Yeah, that's like several hundred episodes.

I was just looking on my notes.

It was quite a few ago.

Yeah, you were. Episode 562 on spirituality, hacking and negativity fasting.

Yeah.

And we're at about 1,000 and change, so. Yeah, that's probably four or five years ago.

Yeah.

So long overdue.

And a lot has, has changed, you know, especially in the realm of finding different ways to heal trauma and work on One's emotional state, you know, specifically in the realm of psychedelics, as you alluded to in the intro, you know, so, yeah, I've lived. I've lived a lot of lives since we did that last podcast.

I've been watching you online. You've definitely. That's the word for it. You've become more grounded and just well rounded, just in your approach, your approach to things. So I think you're doing really good work and it's awesome.

Thank you, sir.

Your show has grown and I can definitely see it. And you're one of the voices in biohacking, and it is a global movement and we need people who are spiritually paying attention in addition to looking at the latest in ketones, because, I mean, frankly, if you get your ketones right, you'll have more energy. But what are you gonna do with it? Well, eventually you're gonna realize you gotta, like, hack the invisible parts of your body. And I feel like anyone who's successfully dealt with addiction and recovered from it ends up having some aspect of spirituality come in. And I've become more and more convinced that a lot of what feels like spiritual stuff, and thus is spiritual stuff, is our interface with our body and our body's interface with reality. It's just the stuff that we don't normally see. It's hidden because it's too big to pay attention to all the time.

Yeah, absolutely.

Does that make sense?

Makes perfect sense. Yeah. Yeah. And I think right now it's. You know, it's interesting as someone who was a very committed, die hard addict who suffered for a long time. Well, I'll be honest, I had fun for a little bit of it.

I mean, people drink alcohol for a reason, right?

There was a few months maybe where I kind of had it in balance. But, you know, the thing is, when you. When you sober up, which for me was 25 years ago, when I was 26 years old, you kind of go into this bubble because you surround yourself with hopefully, at least, I think people are more successful when they do. So you surround yourself with other people in recovery and other people that are supportive and getting healthier and happier and doing all the things right. And so you sort of lose touch with the fact that there are still untold numbers of people who are still stuck in that trap. And I sort of forget. But in the past three years, it's come to my awareness that this has become an even bigger problem than ever. And I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that one of the main underlying Issues in addiction is just loneliness, right? A disconnection from other people. And so many people have been separated from their loved ones. And specifically within the model of recovery, so far, the best we've done are 12 step groups. And, you know, a lot of the success there has to do with teaching people fundamental spiritual principles by which to live so that you feel better. And when you feel better because you have a connection to something greater than yourself, as you alluded to, you don't feel the need to use drugs, but a lot of it is just the unconditional love, like that field of energy that's present in a group of people that all share one purpose, and that purpose is to get sober, right? And you're supporting one another. So you had all of these people around the world that were losing touch with their community and people in recovery that were losing touch with their very insulated community of people like them, right? And relying on Zoom meetings and things like that. And I know for myself, in the beginning, I mean, it took a lot for me to walk into a church basement. You know, I had to really want to get well, and to do that sometimes two or three times a day just to keep my feet on the ground. So to get me to log on to a Zoom meeting or go back to the bar or call the dealer, I can imagine a lot of people fell off, and I know they did. And then you have the prevalence of fear in the air, especially in the beginning when it was kind of unclear and we didn't know what was going on, and there were so many conflicting ideas about what was happening. So you have people who are very often living with a lot of unresolved trauma who are now being traumatized by the experience and the media and all of those things. So you have traumatized people being more traumatized who now don't have the ability to connect with supportive communities. So, you know, now, I think, is a really important time. And it's one of the reasons that I've been more outspoken about this is just to remind myself, just because I made it out of the, you know, abyss of addiction doesn't mean that everyone did. There's still people out there on the streets that are really stubborn, and also people running companies and heads of families and everything else. I mean, all walks of life, as you said, are prone to addiction to something. And I would argue that even if we don't have an addiction to a substance or behavior, many of us are addicted to false thoughts that we continually think that we can't stop. Right? It's like, if you say, do you.

Mean like a plant based diet is good for me despite the fact my teeth are falling out of my head, the plant based diet is good for me.

That could be one false thought. Yeah, but. Right. It's the rumination. It's the limbic system just continually feeding oneself thoughts and feelings that are disempowering. You know, and sometimes we can't stop even doing that. Right. Like try to not think a thought. Right. Now everyone stop thinking. Good luck. Right. So we're all habituated to something.

So you think of that as an addiction. That's actually kind of profound, Luke. I had never thought of that. I teach people a lot now, especially within the 40 years of Zen. And some of the stuff in Smarter Not Harder on my newest book that just came out, I teach them how to turn off notifications in the brain. But I've never thought of that as an addiction. Because if your brain constantly gives you an alert, well, alerts kind of feel good because like they get a little dopamine, a little bit of attention, a little bit of cortisol. So if you have a belief system like I am a victim because I am a member of X, or I am a victim because something happened to me, or I am amazing for no reason, therefore I deserve. These are all facets of narcissism. They are. Ye. Yeah, it's the. I deserve even though I didn't do something. Right. But the idea that those little alerts. So you get a little squirt of anger every time someone else has something you don't have, or every time the world didn't match your inner story, you get angry. Maybe that's an addiction.

Yeah, I mean, it's like an addiction to one's own biochemistry, right? To cortisol, to adrenaline.

Did you just explain the whole woke movement?

Possibly inadvertently, yeah, but this is from my own subjective experience. It's totally true. I mean, when I got sober, which was in and of itself, I mean, it's not overstating to say that it was a miracle. I mean, there was no statistical probability of a guy like me being free of addiction. I mean, it just.

You broke all the rules.

It's exceedingly rare.

And by the way, just for listeners, crack and heroin were part of your story, not just alcohol.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Especially heroin for that one. I'm actually really grateful because I think if I had just been an alcoholic and I also just smoked weed like it was air, you know, I mean, just literally 24, 7 for years. But with heroin, it just gets so dark, you know? And what happens when you go through withdrawal from opiates is a very unique experience, and it is nothing short of torture. Right. So thankfully for me, things like crack and heroin sped up the process so that by the time I was 26, which is when many people start kind of experimenting and going into it, I was already looking for the exit door, you know. But yeah, it was like that, but to the earlier point of addiction to negativity. And just like you said, those hateful thoughts or fearful thoughts. It took me about one day to realize when I walked out of rehab that drugs and alcohol weren't really what my problem was. Oh, wow.

What was your problem?

My problem? Well, now I perceive that it was unresolved trauma. Right? And also the compounding trauma of being an addict because you put yourself in situations continually in which you are victimized or in which you are a perpetrator of harm on others. So the whole cycle of behavior, it re traumatizes you. Yeah, the drama and destruction and the compounding of the shame of knowing that you're doing something that's antithetical to your well being and the well being of those about you for whom you have love, family, friends, et cetera. So this compounding shame. So when you take the drugs and alcohol away, or at least in my case, it's like having a raging migraine and you just removed the aspirin, you know, it's like you just ripped the band aid off. And that's where the real work begins. Which was a shock to me, much to my chagrin, because everyone externally in my life had always said, luke, you know, you're an addict, you're an alcoholic. All your problems are because of that. If you just got sober, you'd be a great guy. So I eventually comply with that, just out of my own suffering and being at a real dead end, you know, I like to call it a subterranean bottom. It's like the bottom that's underneath the bottom. I mean, emotionally. So. And. Yeah, and that's when the real work began. And, you know, things before there was a word, biohacking. I mean, I started doing hyperbaric chambers and infrared saunas.

Yeah, we needed a word for.

Yeah, but you were just called a health nut then, you know, but making kombucha, getting into herbalism. So, you know, I realized, wow, I'm so physically toxic and sick, I can't think, my emotions are so erratic, and I was so obsessed with thoughts that were harmful to myself and that's why I have that idea of like being addicted to one's thinking where I might have a grievance or a resentment towards someone. Right. I mean, resentments are classic for people in recovery. Everyone knows that that's the road to relaps. So say somebody cut me off in traffic. A healthy, normal person that had a brain that functions properly would be afraid for a moment, feel threatened and then self regulate and move on with their day. I literally haven't thought about this in a long time. I would fantasize about tracking that person down, hurting them, you know what I mean? I would be thinking about that interaction all day.

It's crazy. I was the same way. I had toxic mold induced brain damage and yeah, I was. I mean, my middle finger was very strong.

Yeah, yeah. And you know, well exercised.

The amount of rage that that would bring up for me at that time, it was pathological, absolutely pathological. And I'm not proud of it at all. And it, in fact I was ashamed of it when I would like, why would I do that? Well, I did it because my brain wasn't working. I had a hardware problem and I had a forgiveness problem too. Resentment comes from that. And it's interesting. Why do you think some people hold resentment but don't become addicts? Or do you think they're just addicted to that feeling of resentment?

You know, it's interesting, I've of course pondered this, why you have, I mean even siblings, like I have two siblings, right, Two half brothers. And they had a different set of childhood circumstances and their own set of what I would consider to be trauma. I'll let them label it for themselves, but, you know, went through a divorce and parents with their own issues, as many of us have, one of them is like me, he's now sober too. My brother Cody, thankfully 12 years or so. But they both had very close in age, very similar circumstances. One sort of withdrew and became a little bit insulated in his personality. That's my brother Andy. He's still somewhat that way, just kind of an introverted person and doesn't. He's not very expressive and he had his own way of coping with his childhood. You can't get that guy to drink half a beer. He just doesn't like it. Whatever bothers him is not medicated by drugs and alcohol. My other brother, case study, basically the same experience externally. The minute he tried drugs as a young teenager, like me, just, it was the answer. It just solved all the problems, you know, So I think it has something to do and this is just a guess. I think it has something to do with just our biological makeup that some of us seem to find ease and solution with certain substances for our trauma or unresolved emotional pain, or just disconnection from spirit or people or whatever that is that causes us to suffer emotionally and mentally. And then you can have the same exact person with the same circumstances and they have another coping mechanism. And for them, for some unknown reason, drugs and alcohol don't provide a remedy and they just find a way to cope.

It's interesting that you chose two of the most addictive substances. I mean, heroin and cocaine. And cocaine removes your ability to feel happiness without it. So you feel pain without it.

That's. Sometimes it does. There's nothing worse.

And even someone without trauma who does cocaine for a while is going to fall into that because it's neurochemical. But if you're predisposed to having trauma, and there are people who are genetically predisposed to having higher vagal tone, for instance, or just like a nervous system that just naturally goes more towards fight or flight. And then you also had heroin, which opiate receptors, we all have those. And you get anyone addicted to heroin, even if they don't get predisposed to it, you just give it to them every day for a few weeks.

Yeah, you see this a lot with people that go on pharmaceutical opiates and synthetic opiates and whatnot. Right. Where they're not a drug addict type person and they get physically dependent on it. It's really interesting.

It's an interesting business model, isn't it? Like, you force people to inject stuff for a while until they just can't live without it. You might be onto something there someday. You're gonna make something of yourself.

My entrepreneurial mind is taking note. But yeah, man, it all boils down, Dave, to me and my experience, I mean, in the couple decades plus, that I've been somehow able to not be addicted to anything. Well, maybe other than nicotine. I think if I'm really honest, I have a nicotine habit with these, these Lucy Snus.

I don't think it's that bad.

Well, I, she, I'm going to say classically, I would say I'm addicted to it, but it doesn't have any deleterious effects on my life. Where like my, my model of addiction is that you're doing something that is harmful to you and the people with whom you share your life and the consequences outweigh the benefits, and you still can't stop doing it.

You just said the consequences, benefits and all that, because one of the things people say, I don't want to drink coffee because I'd be addicted. Okay, let me just put this narrow out there. There's something you do every day that makes you feel good, and when you stop doing it, even for a day or two, you don't feel good. Are you addicted? And they say, yes. I say, great. I'm talking about exercise. Like, that's not an addiction. I'm, like, triggered much. So what's going on here is risk and benefits, right? Is there a downside to drinking coffee? Yes. It's very small compared to the upside, but I'm sure that you can find some. And then with nicotine, high doses of nicotine, hair loss, erectile dysfunction, you might not want to overdo it, Right? But low doses of nicotine, really good for you. I find after having used it consistently for 10 years, never having smoked. Okay, maybe I smoked a cigar at a wedding or something, but I've never been a cigarette smoker. I've never smoked a cigarette in my life. I'm like, you know what? I've gone through phases, the first five years. One milligram a day. Just one a day. And I'm like, yeah, I love it. I'm gonna do more.

What form of nicotine comes in 1 milligram? Cause I do the gum, and they're like 4 or 6 milligrams. I find that I get a lot of cognitive benefit, and I experience just feeling more grounded when I use nicotine. And then thinking about the shamanic perspective, which my wife pointed out to me, she said, well, it's no accident that human civilizations, especially in the shamanic realms, have used nicot nicotine and continue to do so.

We have to talk about that on.

This episode for their. For their. The grounding benefit. Right? I mean, the tobacco plant is a sacred plant for good reason. So. And that could also sound like a justification. You could say, well, the opium poppy is also sacred, but. But there is some utility value in nicotine. So I'm not hard on myself about it, but I'm also just honest. If you said, like, hey, look, what if we throw away all your nicotine gum tonight? I'd probably be fishing it out of the trash can.

I get it. I'm kind of the same way. One milligram nicotine, you can buy Nicorette mini lozenges. They have the least amount of bad sweetener of anything available in the US Aspartame issue. Those don't have aspartame the mini ones don't, but the full size do. And you break them in half and you get one.

Oh, there you go. Good to know.

But what I use now is Nicorette spray that you can buy in Europe or Canada, and you can also buy it in the US but it's not approved here, so you have to buy it on ebay or somewhere. That's a 1 milligram dose per spray, but it's really kind of convenient. You have something in your pocket. People see me do it on the show all the time. And it is a great cognitive enhancer. Oh my God. It's almost as good as modafinil in coffee. And I believe almost every great work of writing authorship has been done on coffee and nicotine.

I saw a tweet the other day that said the United States was built on nicotine and caffeine.

It was. Wars have been won on it. In fact, literally, the supply chain for coffee is a deciding factor. From the Civil War war forward. It's crazy. So these are fundamental drugs, but when it comes to nicotine, I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna take the gloves off. I just like my life on a little bit of nicotine. And it's an anti aging drug and anti Alzheimer's at low doses. And smoking's bad for you, so guys, don't smoke, don't chew. It's bad for you.

Yeah, if I was smoking cigarettes, I mean, it'd be a different.

Yeah, we'd be cooked.

I smoked for a long, long time. And I think that's why I have wrestled a bit with the guilt of using nicotine in different forms that are much more safe and that from which I derive benef. Cause when I quit smoking, it was like quitting drinking and all the other drugs, it was just a hard stop, I'm done, never again kind of thing. But then I heard people like you talking about the cognitive benefits of nicotine. I was like, well, I mean, I'm not gonna start smoking, but what's a little gum?

You know, as long as it's a little. And what I found is that when I just said, okay, I'm not gonna self regulate, I'm just gonna take it whenever I want to. I'm like, I got to the point I was probably doing like 40 milligrams a day, like 40 sprays a day. And I like it until you get to a point where they don't work very well and you get a little bit nauseous from it.

Bleh.

Still, that's two cigarettes worth of nicotine is. There's 20 milligrams per cigarette. Maybe you don't absorb all of it, but anyway, it's still not that much. But it was too much, so I went cold turkey. The physiological washout for nicotine is three days. After that, it's all psychological, but the psychological is strong. So I was like, okay. So I did it. And I found I could take any other kind of essential oil spray. So the habit was done. I found that using a patch works great. Use a patch and just keep cutting the patch in half every two days and pretty soon you're just, you're off of it without cravings. Now what I do is I have my little spray thing and I have a time box, like a little box that has like for cell phones or something. And I toss my supply of nicotine in there and I just set it for 24 hours and it doesn't open again. So even if my meat operating system is like, use more nicotine, it's like, oh, I can't. And you're fully in charge when you decide to spray nicotine. I like it later in the day or some other time when I'm focused and just this little voice in the back of my head is like, wouldn't your brain work better on nicotine? And the answer is yes. But it doesn't mean that I choose to do it. It means my body is trying to get me to choose to do it. So I might listen to my body. Then I'm like, it's not available. So now I'm on my dose, it's one spray. And if I'm like, today is going to be a heavy day, I'm going to do, I'm going to set the box for 12 hours. But. But if I'm going to do shamanic work or journeying work with substances or neurofeedback or big energy medicine work. And yes, guys, I do that kind of thing. If you didn't notice this, I had yak butter tea on the side of Mount Kailash. I've interviewed Alberto Vioto. I have a very strong and potent practice that is cross lineage. Anyway, when I do that, bring on the nicotine. I might do 20 sprays in a session. And it re ups whatever substance I may be using for medicinal purposes or for neurofeedback. Although certain forms, like 40 years in nicotine is counterproductive for other forms, it works better. So I reserve it for the times when it has shamanic uses. And one of the Things that convinced me of this was just trying it while I was doing curated, medically supervised vision work with substances like ketamine. Also, there are tobacaneros. These are basically shamans who, instead of using ayahuasca, they're using tobacco at high doses to hallucinate. And a friend of mine who's a very, very powerful shaman, some people may guess who it is, but it's up to him to tell the story in full. I convinced him to try nicotine for the first time. He'd never done it because of purity and did not want to be addicted and all that kind of stuff. So he takes a spray, flies back on the couch, literally flies back, starts speaking in a language he doesn't know. And literally, according to him, the spirits of the ancestors of North American indigenous people came into the room and they had a two hour conversation that I was witness to. It was brought on by the sacred spirit of tobacco as concentrated in a pharmaceutically pure spray of nicotine. What the hell? The world's complex. Maybe we're all crazy, but I think nicotine is awesome. Just I don't want to overdo it. So I outsource the decision of saying no to myself all the time.

I like that. That would work with nicotine.

Yeah.

If, if it was heroin, you'd be hitting that, that box open with a sledgehammer about every four hours to be like, plan canceled, Boom.

I respect that. We talked a little bit about addiction and why, why it's exploded in the last three years. Just the lack of human connection. And you've talked about how 12 STEP programs, which provide community, have been very successful. But you said the most successful. What about ibogaine? I've seen so many powerful neurological arguments that ibogaine is very potent for addiction. Do you think it's not as strong as 12 step?

Well, I've not worked with ibogaine, so I can't speak to it directly, but it is widely known specifically for opiate addiction. And then, you know, the iboga, in terms of traditional ceremonial use, is widely revered for its ability to alleviate addictions. And so I think there's some truth to that because there's enough evidence to support that fact. But I think, you know, my case is a little bit unique, Dave, in that I went with the most trusted model.

Yeah.

Based on the historical reference that we have access to outside of indigenous peoples that throughout history that have probably done all kinds of things to alleviate addictions. And there were probably fewer things to be addicted to back then anyway. Right. Yeah. But when I got sober and what's prevalent, and I think wisely so in the 12 step model, is that complete abstinence is the key to long term sobriety. Right. And it has to do with this phenomenon. And it truly is a phenomenon. It's called the phenomenon of craving. And it's when you have an addicted person that say addicted to alcohol, right. Which I was. And if I drank alcohol, I could not control the amount that I drank or the duration that I would drink or the frequency with which I drank. But additionally, if I drank alcohol, I had zero resistance to taking other drugs that I really didn't want to take. And this is this kind of thing that I like to refer to as switching seats in the Titanic, right? It's like you see this a lot when people are trying to get sober. Well, I'm just going to use cannabis or I'll just have a few beers, or I'll just do a little blow on the weekend. And inevitably, no matter what seat you're on, the ship is going down. So because of the phenomenon of craving, that's very common and I would say universal really to most addicts, that if you quit one thing, try to substitute with another substance, you'll eventually get addicted to that and likely get back on the first thing that you tried to quit. So based on that idea and my own experience of that year after year, just trying to just like in my case, I just wanted to use cannabis. I liked it still function. And I was like, at least it.

Felt like you could still.

Yeah, I mean, I was brain dead. I mean I functioned at a minimal level, but it didn't destroy my life and put me out on the street at four in the morning in dangerous situations and things like that. So I experienced that myself. So then the answer is complete abstinence. You don't do any drugs or any alcohol if you want to be sober and you want that sobriety to last. So that's what I did for 22 years. And I became deeply immersed in all types of different therapy and 12 step groups and going to India to learn to meditate and just anything I could do to better myself and just feel more comfortable in my skin. Because as I said, when I didn't use drugs and alcohol to feel comfortable, it was wildly uncomfortable just to be me and my sober body. And at 22 years after interviewing a number of people on my podcast and just running with people in similar circles that you and I share, I started to meet people who had been former addicts and went and did iboga or ayahuasca, and were essentially struck sober from the sort of transcendental experience. The potency of that experience would render them sober. And this was even ayat.

Very few people I know got cured by using ayad. I met a few of them interesting.

Enough to pique my interest, but still, it took me a few years of just kind of being like, well, that's good for you guys, but. But I don't trust myself. And the kind of addiction that I had that I'm not allowed to play in that sandbox, like, oh, that's interesting. It's intriguing. And the stories I would hear were fascinating. And not just people getting sober, but people just being absolved of their trauma and their problems and just fundamentally having a change in their character and their whole perception of their reality and their lives dramatically improving as a result of working with psychedelics and plant medicine. But it was still not off the table for me. But I interviewed enough people, I met enough people that, as you often hear, you hear the call, right? That's something people say. And this ayahuasca just kept coming into my awareness to the point where it was like getting ridiculous just meeting someone, and they could be talking about an infinite number of things, and they would start talking about ayahuasca. This happened for a while, and eventually I just started getting this intuitive feeling that it could benefit me. And even though I had been sober for 22 years and had a great life, I was a celebrity fashion stylist in Hollywood and doing all these great things. A musician. And I mean, by outward appearances, I was successful. But there were still areas in my life in which I was stuck, particularly around romantic relationships. Just clueless, not successful, and making those work in a healthy way. Codependency issues and whatnot.

A lot of addicts have codependency. I had to deal with being a codependent when I was younger. It's rough.

It's. It's a real thing. And. And speaking of, like, addictions that aren't a substance, being addicted to other people is very real, as is codependency. So, long story short, eventually I interview someone who's got a ayahuasca center in. In Costa Rica.

And they invited my show, too.

Yeah, they invited me down there. And I interviewed this channel named Paul Selig, and he taps into these entities or beings, and he asked them questions, and the answers that they reveal are quite profound and seemingly trustworthy and based in truth. It's not really as wacky as it sounds, because when you hear the channel speak through him. You're like, that rings is true. So we were interviewing and I said, hey, can I just go off the script here a bit? I said, paul, would it be appropriate to ask your guides if it would be appropriate for me to go to Costa Rica and sit in ayahuasca ceremony? And he listened for a sec and he goes, yeah, yeah, I think I can do that. He asked the guides and essentially the message was, it will be safe for you to do. As a recovering addict, it's likely that it would benefit you, but you could not go and you'd still be okay. Right. And I was like, bing green light and went in and had four really incredible experiences over the course of a week. And in so doing, I had to totally rearrange my whole model of addiction and what recovery looks like and what abstinence is. There was a lot of reconciliation within myself because I had built an identity, and rightly so, of someone who is a sober guy. I am sober. It's like when someone says, I am vegan. No, you're a human being who eats plants. I am sober is not an identity. But I needed to build that for my own self preservation.

It was a hack. Yeah.

So in those first few ceremonies, I mean, it was scary because I thought, well, what do I call myself after this? What are people in my recovery community going to think? And so on. But what became abundantly clear to me was that. And I've done, of course, a lot of research and just examination of this, because I've benefited so much from many different experiences over the past few years, is that higher states of consciousness can heal. Right. And there were parts within myself that didn't heal. And I found ways through meditation and neurofeedback and different things that had elevated my consciousness, but not to the point of sitting with Ayahuasca or 5 Meo DMT or some of the things that I've experienced. And what's interesting is the origin of the 12 steps. And many people don't know this. And let me give the caveat, this is just my story. I'm not telling someone who's trying to be sober that they should do psychedelics. I really want to make that clear.

Yeah, we can talk more about the most efficacious ones for that, but keep.

Going with your story. I mean, it's important to say that because this is not me promoting this. This is saying, I am shocked that this has been my experience. And it's fascinating and beautiful and it's benefited me A lot. I don't know that that would be true for everyone.

It can be dangerous, especially if you do it to be cool. If you don't have the intuitive calling and you don't check in with someone who's not you, I think doing ayahuasca is exceptionally dangerous.

Well, I contemplated this for about two years.

See, you did it right.

This wasn't like you were calling. This weekend we're gonna go sit with ayahuasca. Want to go? And I'm like, yeah, what the hell? So I'll just give that caveat and just really, this is earnestly from my heart. These medicines are not something to play around with. It can get very dark and things could go horribly wrong. And I know that because when I was an addict, I did LSD and mushrooms all the time and had terrifying, horrific experiences. And because I wasn't doing so consciously, there was no intention other than to try to numb the experience of being me. But anyway, the really interesting piece here is that if you look at the origins of the 12 steps and that began with the organization Alcoholics Anonymous, the co founder, Bill Wilson story is very fascinating. He was a drunkard stockbroker from New York City and he tried to dry up again and again. It never worked. Well, he checked himself into this hospital called Townes Hospital and went through a drying out process in which they administered something called belladonna, which was sort of a cocktail of the plant medicine, belladonna and some other sedatives to get him through the DTs. Because coming off alcohol addiction can be extremely dangerous and you can die from alcohol withdrawals.

Much more deadly nightshade.

Yeah, much more so than a lot of other drugs. I mean, coming off heroin is not fun, but you're not going to die likely. So he takes this plant medicine mixture, has all these wild hallucinations, and then a couple days later has the infamous white light experience upon which the entire program and the entire 12 steps is built. And that was based on a plant journey.

Wow.

Yeah. And it's a really interesting dichotomy. I just find this so fascinating. So he had this peak experience, then a couple days later, probably still in the DTs a bit. And the after effects of that integration and the way he described it in the book called Alcoholics Anonymous, is that the whole room filled with white light. And he felt the presence of God and the presence of love and. And from that moment on, the guy never had a drink ever again. So it was not the plant medicine, but it was the spiritual Experience, the transcendent experience that was a higher state of consciousness that allowed him to access God, source, whatever you want to call it, to give him the restraint and remove that obsession. So then he goes on to get these downloads which are codified within the actual writings of the 12 steps, which are essentially universal principles that are present in many different lineage of spirituality and religions and so on. Right. Just be a moral person, essentially have integrity. They're just, they're about building husky things. They're really just based on having integrity. So the purpose of him creating the 12 steps was to elicit a similar spiritual experience so that one could have a spiritual awakening and no longer have the need to use alcohol or drugs addictively. Right. So it's really interesting that. And then he later went on to experiment with LSD with Aldous Huxley in the 60s, which is crazy. And he wanted to bring LSD into aa and of course wisely. So I think everyone said, bill, you're nuts. We're not bringing. It was legal then. It was like a psychiatric medicine. Yes.

Stan Grof has been on the show, the guy who first used it in medical practice.

Right, right. So there's a history that's inconvenient for many in terms of recovery, and rightly so, and I respect that, because complete abstinence was the path for me. But what I can say after some years of venturing into the realm of psychedelics with some degree of consistency, is that there were traumas in my body and in my psyche that were preventing me from living my life fully as a sober man. Despite 22 years of very committed spiritual work, years of kundalini yoga, years of every 12 step group you can think of, for every problem, you might have a course in miracles. Reading Eckhart Tolle, reading Ram Dass, David Hawkins, going to India, meditating. And my life improved dramatically. But there were still things within me in terms of true acceptance and self love and just healing, abuse and trauma that I experienced as a kid that I just couldn't get to it until I explored that realm. And nothing has come close to being able to provide those benefits to me. And also when you say nothing, do.

You mean you've taken. I have, let's see, five meo, dmt, psilocybin, ayahuasca, peyote and ketamine.

That sounds like a lot when you say it like that.

Well, which of them are we referring to here?

You know, each one has had its own benefit. And I said, when you read that list, it sounds like you're A drug addict, dude, you're doing all these drugs, right? But that's over the course of four years, right? And it's like each. Each time that. I mean, I live in Austin, I could be doing plant medicines every weekend.

I find I do them more often now that I'm in Austin. It's kind of weird how that is.

So. So it's not something I seek out. I'm not looking for it. These experiences that you just listed have literally just fallen on my doorstep. Hey, Luke, I have this intuitive hit that you're supposed to be here at this retreat in a month. I take a few days, think about it, and 90% of the time, it's a no, because I don't have a good reason to be there. There's nothing I want to work on or manifest or heal or just the set and setting doesn't resonate with me. But out of those experiences, each different medicine has had such diverse benefits in terms of healing and realization and also just a deepening of my relationship with God, which is the very most important thing in my life. And the thing that got me sober in the first place. How I got sober, Dave, is I checked myself into rehab. I had never been around religion. I wasn't spiritual. I didn't believe in God. I guess I would be an agnostic at that time. Just, like, I don't. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but all I know of it is, like, from movies of people going to church. Like, I'm so disconnected from any contact with. With that realm.

Was that an Eddie Murphy movie?

But I check into rehab, and I'm going through all kinds of crazy withdrawal. And I'm like, can you guys give me some Dilaudid or something? You know, I go to the nurse, and she said, oh, no, you don't need that. You know, we checked your vitals. You're fine. You just gotta rough it. And I said, well, give me something. She said, luke, you have to go to your room and pray. Pray to God to remove your obsession. And that's all she gave me. So that's all I did. And I went to my little room in that rehab, and I literally, like, just from seeing it in the movies, it's the only way I knew how to do it. I got on my hands and knees. I put my hands in prayer position and I prayed the most humble, sincere prayer of my life. That was just, I want to be free. I just want to be free. I'm not asking for anything, but just take this freaking obsession out of my body and my mind. And from that moment until this moment right now, I've never experienced that ever again. Wow. But that was. There was work to follow up on that or I would have relapsed for sure. But I surrounded myself. I changed my whole life. But with each of those medicine experiences, I've worked through something different. Right. Because they each have their own flavor and each shaman or facilitator has their own unique energy. The sort of energetic grid, the container, the context of the experience.

That's why the shaman really matters with these medicines.

Right. So much. Yeah. And thankfully, I've never had a negative experience.

Don't do it with Newbie.

Yeah. Because I. I've been very discerning. I have a wife who's very experienced in these realms and is even more discerning than I am, you know, and I trust her, her vision on things. But with something like five meo, I mean, unequivocally, those experiences have by far been the most profound experiences of my life. I mean, outside of so far, so much so it's ineffable. Right. There's no words to describe the place that you access for that brief period of time. And even just having those experiences, sans any realizations or inner work or understanding, just being in a state of non duality for three to five minutes fundamentally changed who I am forever. And there's no going back. And in terms of the things you talk about, reactivity and being triggered and your nervous system not being able to be regulated and all the things that are also useful in the biohacking realm, neurofeedback and all of that, I mean, the things that I'm able to be resilient through when my nervous system gets triggered and there's a natural moment of fight or flight. Like, I'm shocked at how quickly I come back into my body and I'm me again. And. And I couldn't do that before neurofeedback, all these things help float tanks. I mean, I made a lot of progress, but some of those experience that you mentioned have just fundamentally changed me into a totally different person. Right. But some of it, I think, is also because of the fact that I did have 22 years of a model that I had created. Like, I know what the goal is. Right. I want a deep level of presence. I want a spiritual connection. I want loving, healthy relationships. I wanted to be an integrous, honest, authentic, loving, kind, patient, forgiving person. Right. I've been working on all of that and making progress. So going into those experiences. I'm not just kind of like, let's see what happens. Like, I know what I want to work on and I know what's blocking me. So in that first ayahuasca ceremony, I mean, I had no idea that it was going to be that powerful. I'm sitting there 22 years sober, sitting on my mat with my eyes closed, just waiting, waiting for it to happen. And it starts to happen. And I've never felt so free in my whole life, you know, and the freedom really came from learning to trust myself and that this isn't an excuse to get high or escapism.

It's like it's hard to get addicted to ayahuasca. You throw up like it's rough.

Unless you like throwing up licorice, you know, juice, essentially. Yeah. But anyway, you know, it's. To your question. Each of those experiences have been so unique and so beautiful and at times harrowing and, you know, facing things that are very difficult to look at within myself, Things that I'm ashamed of or still hurt by or areas in which I'm still stuck. There's still something in the subconscious and I need to go into that quantum realm in order to get in there and kind of do a psychic surgery and remove those parts of myself and evolve. Evolve and emerge as a different person. You know, I mean, I used to be terrified of having kids. It was like my absolute worst nightmare. I would never commit in relationships.

I had that too.

And now we're in the process of wanting to get pregnant and going through whatever is necessary to do so. It's a lot of work now. For example, just one small example. I'm more afraid now of not having a kid.

Well, you've done so much inner child healing work.

Well, yeah, that's profound. That's what it takes. That's really. That's it. So, you know, in summary, again, you know, this isn't. I don't recommend this journey for others, but I would be doing myself and others a disservice to not be open and honest about this. What for me is a unique experience. I'm sure there are many other people that are combining both of these realms, right. Of a addiction recovery and also using different medicines to heal. But to me, it's still just front page news in my awareness because the change that I've experienced has been so profound. Wow.

I think you did a lot of the personal work before you did the plant medicine. I see a disturbing trend in people saying, I'm going to go to ayahuasca which is one of the more dangerous substances. Actually, I'm going to do that first. And I have some friends who are like, oh, I've done 200 ceremonies. When is it not working?

At what point?

And so I do see kind of a disturbing trend. And because it is uniquely, I think, dangerous spiritually, it needs to be treated with reverence and respect. And I prefer to do it with someone who's exceptionally experienced at sitting with it. Because a good shaman's like a firewall 100% to keep the bad stuff out while you get rid of your bad stuff.

100%. I'm so glad you brought that up because I'm always conscious to give my disclaimers. But this one that you bring here is really important because when. And the veils of your, as you would call your meat os, right? When your awareness, your consciousness is no longer confined within your senses and you're in a realm where your senses are pushed to the side and you truly are in a quantum realm of no space and no time. Not only do benevolent angels and guides and God itself reside there, but because we're living in a polarity, we're living in a duality in that realm, there is also polarity. And there are definitely dark forces in that realm. And this is very traumatizing for many people that go into it sort of willy nilly and don't have the protection of a proper guide.

Those things will move right in and take up residence if you don't have.

Yeah, and this is, I mean, in circles I run in. I mean, I won't say it's common with people that I'm friends with and stuff, because I think they have the same level of discernment and caution around this or maybe, maybe prudence. But I mean, I do hear stories and I know they're true of people taking on entities or just almost becoming possessed and just having really dark experiences. You know, whether or not those gobs and goblins exist in those realms or not, they emerge worse. Right. And. And have a very difficult time finding their way back to this reality. So, yeah, it's definitely nothing to play with. But for me, you know, with when I've done so, with that prudence and being very mindful about it, I've had nothing but positive experience.

And you did your work first. You did lots of personal development work, lots of therapy, addiction recovery, neurofeedback, breath work, cold therapy. Like you did the preparatory work instead of just jumping in looking for a panacea.

Well, that explains why you hear these stories because I've benefited so much. I've been a bit naive in terms of. Of if I meet someone and they say, oh, I've sat with ayahuasca a few times, I would immediately trust that person because I think they've done the same work that I have. Right.

No, no, no, no.

But it's so interesting.

You see, it's such a sign they're weird.

You see people that have had a lot of these experiences, yet still really lack moral fortitude and just integrity. Right.

Which is you can lack integrity and do ayahuasca a hundred times. You won't get integrity that comes from something else.

Right. It's like, you hear these stories of these, you know, predatory shaman in South America and stuff, and they're drinking the All.