EPISODE #926 Natural Landscapes That Will Restore Your Energy Emma Loewe

You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey. Today on the show, we're going to talk about nature. And the guest that I found for you today is a senior sustainability editor at mindbody Green and she's an environmental journalist and she's done a lot of research in how nature, human health and helping the climate actually interact with each other. And it'll be a very, very interesting time to chat. Her name is Emma Lowey, and with no further ado, Emma, welcome to the show.

Thanks so much for having me. Dave, excited to be here.

You actually wrote a book called the Spirit Almanac, A Modern Guide to Ancient Self Care. That plus a book on nature and the environment. Are you the ultimate hippie? Is that what's going on here?

I mean, I'm trying to get that title. Yeah. Of, yeah. I mean, what can I say? I love nature. Who doesn't?

How did you get the interest in ancient healing modalities? I mean, you go pretty deep on some of the stuff. You talk about ancient spiritual practices, ritual, things like that, and you went from there to the environment. But I wonder, how did you get into that side of more esoteric biohacking?

Yeah, so I mean, I've been at mybody Green for about going on seven years now, and in that time I've had the pleasure of speaking to people sort of on all walks of wellness, including a lot of yoga teachers and people who come from different spiritual lineages and things of that nature. So they sort of piqued my interest in the ritual self care side of things.

Okay, so you got into it that way, you learned about it and you decided that it was worth writing a book about nature landscapes. We've had several guests talk about forest bathing, about benefits of times in nature. It's in my book Game Changers as One of the 46 things that high performers do. But, but I've not come across anyone who's really thought about, okay, this environment creates this state. And I think that's a unique way of thinking about it. When did you realize that different environments were creating different states?

You mentioned forest bath, and I think that research was really instrumental to me to start thinking about landscapes in this way. A lot of times when we refer to getting out in nature, we sort of use the word nebulous, like, oh, we're going out in nature. But there are obviously so many different sorts of landscapes we can experience and ways that we can interact with them. So I was curious if there was a way to compile the existing research into different Sort of buckets, depending on what landscape someone might have access to or be interested in visiting. And I was pleased to find that the research does exist. It just hadn't been put together in quite this way before.

What percentage of time does the average person spend in nature now?

Oh, gosh. So the most recent data is from I think the late 1990s, but it was something like 6% of every day, which I think is maybe even high in a post Covid world. So not enough for sure.

Well, that's definitely the numbers that I came across was 87% of the time indoors. The rest of the time is in cars. Other than that 6% where you might be outdoors. But being outdoors doesn't mean you're in nature. If you're in a typical city and walking between skyscrapers in Shanghai probably doesn't count as nature. In fact, it's probably worse than being indoors. At least that was my last experience in Shanghai because of air quality. Right, so how did you go about putting together the research for your new book called Return to Nature? In fact, it launches the day that this podcast comes out and we share a publisher. But how would you know? Where did you find this information? Because I haven't come across it before.

So, I mean, I think, you know, like any sort of journalistic project, you start by reaching out to people who are really, you know, spearheading the research and ask them, you know, who in the space should I be talking to? You know, who is doing interesting stuff right now? So that was sort of my first avenue into it. And I would say there are sort of two main, maybe three main clusters of researchers who are doing this. That I think about it, it's people who are studying green space. So that's the sort of more typical, like the health benefits of getting out into parks, for example. Then you have blue space researchers, there are a fair amount of those in the UK specifically, and then forest bathing researchers, who are obviously over in Asia and researching forest landscapes specifically.

So which benefits when you're exposed to nature? Where do you see it first? Is this a physical well being? Is this a mental well being? Is it spiritual? Kind of break down the percentages of each. I know it's not quite that rigid, but kind of which one's bigger or smaller?

So I think a really big one that is probably obvious to people right away is just that getting outside in nature, we tend to also be moving when we're outdoors. We go on walks in a park, for example, and there's, you know, obvious benefits in moving Your body, you know, in any landscape, indoors or out. But there is some pretty interesting research to show that, you know, when people do what they call green exercise, it actually does tend to be more beneficial in the sense that people report less exertion, so it feels easier to them than perhaps if they were doing it inside. Their blood pressure also tends to return to normal incentive faster after outdoor green exercise, which is kind of interesting. So that's a definite avenue. There's also sort of the cognitive benefits of getting outdoors seem to be very interesting. A lot of research finds that once you return inside from a trip outdoors, you score better on things like working memory tests. You tend to have less brain activity in certain regions that are responsible for things like negative self talk or rumination. So that's a definite component. And then the emotional part of it, I think that it's across the board. People are report less stress when they, you know, get back from time outdoors. It also shows in their physiology. You know, they have lower cortisol levels, lower blood pressure, lower heart rate. So I think all these things really come together, you know, in a formative outdoor experience.

So there's no way to really say you get more mental benefits or more spiritual benefits or more physical benefits. Because, I mean, moving is moving. You can do that on a whole body vibration platform, in a basement, on a space station, if you want to. But I think it's more than that, definitely.

And I don't know if it would. I think it just depends so much on the experience. You know, if you're in a landscape that really, for example, makes you feel an emotion like awe, I think there's reason to believe that that will sort of stick with you longer and it might be more beneficial to your body than if you're just taking a walk around the block, the same walk around the block that you've taken every day of your life.

So there's some differences there. One of the things that impressed me about your work is you had 30 pages of references to what you're saying. I think everyone listening has heard me and countless others say you should spend time outdoors. It's good for you. So we all kind of know it. Also, you should eat healthy and you should exercise. But how exactly can you exercise to get the most benefits? Well, I'm working on that with upgrade labs, and there's a lot of new knowledge about these things. And do you understand the mechanism of action for nature? I mean, is it because you're getting natural light, is that you're seeing green colors, is that Your eyes relax, like, what. What are the big things it's doing physiologically? Do we understand that?

We don't have a super clear picture of it. But you know, people obviously have some, some guesses as to what's happening. You know, I think one theory that's, you know, sort of the main accepted one is called the attention restoration theory. And it sort of posits that, you know, when we're indoors doing, you know, things on screens or focusing, you know, on the task at hand, it's very cognitively draining. But for whatever reason, when we get outside, it sort of gives our brains. They call it like soft fascination. So something to sort of like rest your attention on in this landscape. So that's obviously a very visual interpretation of it. But then there's also this interesting research that I walk through in the book to show that everything from the sounds of ocean waves to the smell of certain trees can also sort of build upon that initial restorative effect. So I do think it's kind of a culmination of a lot of different pathways.

It seems like it's not one of those things you can get down to one variable or even maybe stack rank what it's doing. Because we have this concept of polypharma research like, oh, what happens if you take two drugs together? Well, I'm working on, we'll call it poly exercise theory with data at Upgrade Labs. It says, what if you do this and this, what order? How do you combine them? And it seems like when you're getting a prescription for nature, it's a bunch of different things that are all happening simultaneously that are doing it. And I would call out the visual field stuff you talked about. One of my regular practices is I'll work at my computer. And I have different depths of vision for that. But I also make sure that I turn, I look out at a vista, which I have out my window so I can see Salt Spring Island. And when I worked as a venture capitalist on Sandhill Road, cause I was the lowest guy on the totem pole, they put me in a couple others and they called it the Fishbowl. It was this kind of dark room in the midd with a couple windows where people could see in, but you could see no natural light. And I'm looking at the first Mac I got. This was a while back, but with a real bright screen and bad fluorescent or LED lighting, whatever it was. But after an hour or two in there, it was just like zombifying. So I'd go outside and like get some sun and, like, see at a distance, and then your eyes would relax and then your body would chill, and then you go back in and do the work. So maybe it wasn't the best working environment just physiologically, but I found I couldn't go eight hours sitting in there because I would just kind of zombify. And it's that visual relaxation that you get from being outdoors, unless you're in a dense forest and then you can't see far, but you can see detail. And that seems. Seems really important way more than we give it credit for. Any specific research on that?

On the forest side of things or.

Just on the relaxation of the brain because of what you see?

Yeah, I mean, I think there's some really interesting research that sort of, you know, talks more about what you were experiencing and that job where you sort of got out and saw this and you're like, oh, my brain is restored. In terms of things like creative thinking and problem solving, there's research to show that actually helps to look out onto more open, expansive space that, like, focus in on your computer, for example. So I think that's sort of part of another reason why getting up and taking breaks, looking out the window, even looking at a blank wall, if you don't have access to a window, can be helpful to sort of help your brain make those more creative connections.

Where do you live?

I live in Brooklyn, New York.

I was guessing you have, like, the perfect New York apartment set up behind you.

Thank you.

How the heck do you actually get nature in Brooklyn?

So, I mean, one of the chapters of the book is, you know, the urban landscape chapter. So it's definitely something that I think about a lot is how can I live in a city that, you know, like you mentioned, it's, you know, New York isn't as bad as other places, but you have things like air pollution, you have things like noise pollution. You are surrounded by concrete. You know, I live in a high rise, so I wanted to think about how I could, you know, experience nature in this place. And, you know, thankfully enough for me, the research really does show that it doesn't have to be some sort of, like, grand, you know, forest to get away in order to, like, really, you know, change you on a physiological level. You know, access to things like pocket parks or even street trees. They're finding that can have a really similar effect if you. If you let it. You know, if you. Instead of getting outside and just listening to, you know, going on a phone call or just sort of tuning out in your head, can have a really similar effect if you. If you let it. You know, if you. Instead of getting outside and just listening to, you know, going on a phone call or just sort of tuning out in your environment, I think it's important to really make that outdoor time like your outdoor time, and just, you know, look up at the trees, see what you can spot. You know, take out your headphones, smell the air, just let it sort of sink in. I think that especially important for city dwellers.

That is kind of sad, though, because at least when I'm in cities, there's that one tree, but it's the dog's favorite tree. It feels almost worse than no nature. There's one poor sad tree. I mean, isn't that maybe not good for you?

I mean, it makes me sad sometimes. And then the trash obviously drives me insane. But, you know, it's funny. I actually went on a walk for a story that I'm working on last week with a naturalist who works in New York City. And I asked her the same question. You know, do you feel deprived of nature and this place? And she said, no, never. And I think she said it's because she thought she was always looking for it, and she was always attuned to it. So I thought that was a powerful example.

You came up with eight different landscapes that do different things. Can you tell me what those eight are? We've mentioned one, which is city and built environments, which is a kind of landscape that actually has a specific effect. But tell me about the other seven.

Yeah, so the first one is grasslands and parks. Then we have forests, mountains, desert, ice and snow, rivers. And I am missing one. Did I say mountains?

You didn't say wetlands? No. You had parks and gardens, mountains, mountains, and highlands.

Okay, yeah, I'm still missing.

So how did you end up.

Sorry?

Oh, ocean, of course. Oceans and coasts. So the coastal stuff? More like where I live, I get forests and trees and oceans and coasts and not much else. Why did you end up with those eight buckets?

So I think that, you know, just given the research that's out there, they made the most sense. I should also say that, you know, there's been a lot of studies in places like parks, especially considering a lot of this research is done, you know, on college campuses. So they've been, you know, green spaces on college campuses and, you know, things like that. There is a lot less research on, you know, the tops of mountains or in desert environments. So, you know, just sort of seeing where the research exists and also seeing if there are any sort of cornerstone Experiences that people might have in different environments, like a mountain, for example. And sort of teasing out like, okay, well, there's this really expansive research on awe, and that's something that people do tend to experience on mountaintops. So that probably belongs in that chapter. So making those sorts of, those sorts of decisions, I also just thought they were places that a lot of people could identify with.

One of the reasons that until recently, California was a state where people wanted to live. And you can figure out why until recently, depending on whether you're paying attention to either economics or social policy. That's a different podcast, but people like to live there because you could get all of these environments within basically a two hour drive. And that was one of the really special things about whether it's northern or southern. There's just so much available, but a lot of the world, and I'll probably localize this to the US just a little bit because we have most of those environments. I remember talking to a friend from Kansas and she was taking her three year old and they went for a drive and it was the first time he'd seen a tree. And he goes, look, mom, giant broccoli. Because he'd never seen a tree. So there are people who live in places where there are no mountains, there are no coasts. Like half these environments just aren't accessible. What does that mean for them?

And that was something that, you know, was another sort of jumping off point for the book I wanted to explore. I wanted to make this book accessible and like actionable to anyone, no matter where they lived. I think that, to answer your question, it is a real, like, in my mind, it's like a public health crisis that, you know, so many people, especially, you know, city dwellers, really don't have access to green space. And, you know, there's research to show that it actually has an effect on things like mortality. You know, if you don't have a park within walking distance of your house, it might really affect your longevity. So I think that it's a huge area of concern and it's something that I try and be very cognizant of. And I try and share practices that really anybody can use no matter where they live.

Okay, so let's say you're in Kansas and you read your book and you're going, wow, I'm deficient in coastlines. Is this like mandatory vacation sort of things?

No. And I mean in every chapter too, there's also a section on how to bring that landscape to you. So, you know, with coastlines, for example, there's actually some cool research to find that even listening to the sounds of waves, you know, on like YouTube or what have you kind of listed a similar relaxation response if you have a positive association with the sound of waves? I know, you know, that's sort of a trigger for some people, but. So that's one example of, you know, it is possible to bring some of the benefits of these places to wherever you are. Obviously it's not quite the same as getting out there, but, you know, I still think it can be helpful.

So I have a super high resolution. I think it's like a 60 inch monitor I'm looking at you on right now. And when I'm not looking at anyone in particular on it. The background is a picture of Big Sur. And interestingly, I have it set up so that it changes with the time of day. So if it's at night, I see stars over big surf. It's sunset. You see sunset, Sunrise, you see sunrise. Because I think that actually really does tie in with your circadian rhythm. Is there some value to having pictures of nature or having a TV set up like that that lets you see the stuff that isn't in your environment?

Absolutely, yeah. I think it's telling that a lot of the preset desktop backgrounds are of like Yosemite or wild natural places. Yeah, there definitely is. It's funny, I actually interviewed one AWE researcher who is doing a lot of interesting stuff on studies on the top of mountains, for example. And when I asked her how she experiences awe, she, like a lot of us, spends a lot of time at our computer and she said, oh, I have an AWE folder on my desktop, which is photos of things that elicit awe in her that she'll open when she sort of needs some inspiration. So I definitely think there's something to that.

There's something to that. I think so. And even if you just have an Apple TV or something, they have all these amazing nature shots that just randomly show up as a screensaver. My kids for years have been playing a game if they're looking at that because the thing's gone to sleep. And whenever the same picture comes up twice, they get all excited and see the first one to call it. So there's something it's talking to, I think in our very low level operating system, things that weren't really conscious of where our body's like that, even if we're not necessarily conscious, you might think, well, it's kind of dumb cognitively, but your body's like, no, I like seeing a picture of the sun, even if I'm not seeing the sun. And there's actually studies showing changes in people just from looking in their brainwaves, from looking at a picture of the sun, even though the sun isn't in the room. So I think there's deep level communication happening and I want to get into what the eight environments are and what they do for you. And we're going to twice they get all excited and you know, see the first one to call it. So there's, there's something it's talking to, I think in our very low level operating system, things that weren't really conscious of where like our bodies like that, even if we're not necessarily conscious, you might think, well, it's kind of dumb cognitively, but your body's like touch on probably a couple of those in detail. And we've already talked about what the eight of them are. But do you think that people have like their environment? Like, are you a tree person? Are you a coastal person? Is that something that's set by where you're born? Where does that come from? Or is that not a real thing?

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I started this book, I'll admit, sort of thinking that in doing this research I'd find, you know, sort of like the ideal landscape or the place that seems to be, you know, most restorative and beneficial to the largest group of people. But I really did find that your sort of, you know, past experience, your memory, you know, it really does play a role in the types of places that you are most drawn to. You know, there's interesting, a lot of the research that I refer to in the book is, you know, done in English speaking countries because I speak English and you know, more in Western civilizations. But there has been some really interesting work to show that, for example, indigenous populations actually have different landscape preferences than the Western college students that they were compared to. So I don't think that it's an ideal nature across the board. I think we all sort of have our own space or spaces. I think that those are flexible though. I think it can definitely change over the course of your life as you get out there and explore more.

I have a theory and it's certainly not one that's in your book, but it's worth just discussing. So there's a couple of billion eggs that your mom could have chosen to mature. And the ovaries are the only part of the body that has 100,000 mitochondria per cell. Your brain has 15,000, your heart has 15,000. The rest of you has a lot less. And we think mitochondria are power plants, but they're actually environmental sensors and manufacturing plants that also make power if they want to. And they're the ones driving the selection process to pick an egg that's going to survive best in the environment the mother was in for three months, or the three months before, you know, that egg came to the surface. So I think that there's a wonderful symmetry and just evolutionary design for survival that way. And then the egg selects the semen. And it's not that it's the first to get there. We have lots of videos of dozens trying to get in, but then one gets in that that's clearly selected by the membrane on the egg. So there's all kinds of cool intelligence going on around conception. And if you live within probably 10 degrees plus or minus on a latitude away from the equator, you're going to be wired for that. So if you are conceived and born near the equator and you go to the far north, you're probably not going to like the dark because your body was actually selected for more of a bright environment. And I've often asked myself, does that correlate to the environment that just feels best at a low level in your body? I was conceived and born in a desert, and every time I go to the desert, I'm like, oh, man, this feels so much better than all these damn trees. They're everywhere. I can't get away from them. But other people go there and say, it's a dead landscape. I'm like, you don't know where to look. Do you think there's anything to. Maybe it's not just what affects all people, but it's. It has to do with where you're from, maybe where your ancestors are from.

I think that, you know, it's funny, I actually had this conversation the other day with someone who. She was describing certain landscape, and she said it did feel like sort of a homecoming. And she had a conversation with her father, who had had a really transformative experience in a similar landscape. And, you know, he had never told her that. So I think that idea that it sort of somehow maybe passed down is really intriguing. I also just think it's pretty obvious that a place that you grew up in would have a certain resonance with you. But, yeah, just sort of thinking about what more there could be to it, I think is interesting and could be a cool place for some research, for sure.

I'm watching the comments from our live audience from my mentorship group. And they're all saying, I'm a coastal person or I'm a desert person, I'm a tree person. And most people I know who spend any time in nature know that one kind of nature is. Is better for them than another. Did you find that in your research that different people are just like, that's the one, or is it that we really need all eight of them in some kind of ratio?

Yeah, I mean, I think that people can definitely identify as, like, liking one over the other. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all. One of my intentions with the book was sort of to challenge folks to consider why that is and maybe what is sort of in that landscape that they feel kind of repelled by or, like, don't necessarily want to go in, that they might actually need to sort of borrow a spiritual idea. So I think that that was a fun sort of thought exercise for me too, just to consider, like, why do we feel drawn to these places? And what is there to see in the places that we don't necessarily think of ourselves as being thriving in? For example.

So your last book was about some of the more esoteric stuff, including astrology and whatnot. Do you think that there's any truth. I'm a water sign, my astrological sign, and Mars and Aries were having a dinner party when I was born, so something special happens. Any correlations there that you've heard about.

Between astrology and the nature stuff?

Yeah, I mean, you've written books on both. You're the one person on Earth to ask this question of. You might go on a limb here.

Oh, well, I mean, in astrology, every sign is associated with a certain element. So you could say that maybe that has something to do with what you feel, what you think that.

Have you seen any evidence? Have you, like, seen anything, do you think come together for you as you're writing the book?

No, but I also wasn't necessarily looking for it. I mean, I think this book I really wanted to focus in on a very specific type of research, and astrology did not fit the bill for it. But I think that, you know, whatever people feel drawn to, it's more power to them.

Okay. And I would support that. If a certain kind of environment makes you happy, then you should probably spend some time there, at least on occasion, and have a picture of it or something. I think that's an important part of changing the environment around you, so that it makes your body work better, even if it's not really that easy to explain. I'm just thinking about it. Yeah, give.