EPISODE #989: Do You Have Cancer? A New Whole-Body MRI Scan Sees Everything - Dr.Raj Attariwala

You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey. You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey, and I'm recording this show live at the biohacking conference right after having had a new kind of AI powered whole body MRI at Prenuvo. So I thought, why wouldn't we spend some time sharing knowledge with you from a guy who has a PhD in biomedical engineering and in his spare time, a med medical degree in nuclear medicine and radiology. So, really smart guy who is changing the face of MRIs. The reason I want you to know that this is possible, even though your insurance company probably won't pay for this yet, but your flexible spending account might, is that this kind of scan could detect nine of the top 10 cancers in stage one. In other words, when they're easy to knock out, it detects about 500 other medical conditions and it tells you how your spine is doing over time, as well as body composition stuff. So this is like a new source of data in the human body. I'm exceptionally excited about this, and I wanted you to learn about it from the guy who did the hard work. His name is Dr. Raj Atariwalla and he's not related to Atari, the video game. I already asked. So if you're thinking that, you can just stop. But I'm calling Dr. Raj Raj. Welcome to the show.

Thank you. Pleasure to be here. Pleasure to be here.

So we just did my scan. This is my second scan because I met you probably four years ago. Five years ago.

2019.

Yeah, 2019. Okay. I'm not good at my. Three years ago, right before the whole pandemic thing, and I got my first pre nouveau scan and it was really excited. It taught me some stuff about my body that I didn't know, explained some long standing things that I've had since I was a teenager, like weird spinal cord things related to my mom's intake of grains and lack of folic acid or folate, as the case may be. So all sorts of things like, aha, you've put pieces in the puzzle and we didn't find any massive risks then, which is awesome, right?

Exactly. Well, that's what we want to know. You know, is there anything bad going on? Any tumors or surprise tumors? That's a key thing we want to see. Do we have cancer? Yes or no? That's the biggest question everybody wants to know. And that's the beauty of mri, is that it allows us to look through the entire body without any radiation. It uses radio waves that are around us all the time to see what's going on in the body. And so that's what we set up as pernuvo as, you know, MRI scans, they typically just do little bits and pieces of your body, and so you can only look at a little window of a person, like just your brain or your pelvis. Whereas what we put together, using the engineering skills, as well as a lot of my colleagues in the world of mri, we actually put together the ability to scan from head to foot and be able to see everything in one scan. And that allows us to get an incredibly powerful baseline, as you had in Vancouver originally. So you can see where you are, and we can see how things change. And, you know, I think when we met back in 2019, you were. There were a lot of new things that were a surprise to you. And the thing that's really important about that is from a medical point of view, you know, let's say, heaven forbid something bad happens to you and you have to get an MRI or any kind of imaging, you have a baseline when you're healthy, so you can actually use that to compare how things change. And that's incredibly powerful because, as you know, the MRI is like the best. It's the pinnacle of medical imaging. And if we want to talk about all the different kinds of imaging, I know that stuff inside and out.

Well, I mean, you have a PhD in that stuff or a medical degree in that stuff, so you're definitely going to know that. And I actually think it'd be great for listeners to understand that, and we'll get to it. But I wanted to address something first. Everyone's worried about emf. And, guys, you're swimming in this stuff, so worrying about EMF is actually dangerous. But EMFs themselves aren't always good for you. They can be bad for your mitochondria and all that. So I want to talk about the specific kind of EMFs that are inside an MRI machine. Can you walk me through what's going on there? You're a guy who can actually qualify to answer this.

Definitely. And you're correct. Like emf, or radio frequencies like to call it, is around everything. You know, basically your cell phone, WI fi, everything runs off of emf.

And even if you shut all that down, there's Starlink, there's cell phone towers. You can reduce your exposure, but you're not going to be free of it. So you need to be resilient and you need to be able to manage your own health, and you can actually put signals in that reverse the harm too. And there's a bunch of technologies I've covered on here that help with that. But this isn't the same as WI fi. It's a different frequency. Walk me through the frequencies and how that's working.

Exactly. So the frequency is basically, we run it the same as a AM radio. So, you know, AM radios are the first type of radio ever invented, and the amount of power that it requires is quite low. And so when you go into anywhere where you get radio frequency, there's a calculation called sar, Specific absorption rate. That's basically how that radio frequency energy is being absorbed. And so a long time ago, we actually did the calculations on how much SAR is somebody getting during one of these scans, and it's actually less than talking on your cell phone for a couple of hours. So it's very little. Now, the. The other key thing is that when we look at a cell phone, we're typically looking at a high frequency. Right? It's a much, much higher frequency. And if you want to meet again to the physics of E equals H nu and Planck's constant. But that will actually tell you the amount of energy that frequency gives you based on the higher the frequency, the higher the energy. Okay. And so MRI is actually quite a low energy because it's, again, AM radio. So it's long wavelength as opposed to short.

And guys, if that went over your head, which it didn't for some listeners, for other people, know amplitude modulation, which is what AM is means. We change the power levels, but it doesn't happen that many times a second. It's a low frequency. And what FM or frequency modulation does is you change the frequencies, and they're very high. So it happens many, many, many times a second versus a gentle wave. So I looked into this as well, because there are some scans, like PET scans, maybe, that increase cancer risk. And so I even talked to Dr. Ted Achacoso last year or the year before at the biohacking conference here, and he said, you know, I feel better every time I get an mri. And he looks at it as a form of PEMF that's actually beneficial. And I feel really good having gotten mine. So I'm not convinced that there's any meaningful risk unless you have metal implants from an mri. I could be wrong. You could be wrong. And if any of you have info, let me know. But this appears to be quite safe compared to the risk of potentially getting cancer. A substantial number of people do. I do not have tumors. Didn't have them last time. Don't have them this time. I'll bet you I don't, because I do all the mitochondrial stuff I talked about. But if I do, I'm going to know about it and I'm going to lick it in the bud, actually. You don't want to lick your cancer in the bud, do you? That's kind of gross.

No, you. Pretty much the whole thing with cancer is you want to detect it early as you know, like that. That's the key thing, is to find cancer in stage one, because the outcome is always better. And that's one of the biggest problems with the field of medicine today, unfortunately, is that we find cancers late, typically stage three or four, where the survival is much poorer. And that's what we want to prevent. And so that's the goal of Prenuvo is to do that, to find early cancers in addition to all the other 500 things that we can find.

Okay. There are several companies that make large MRI machines. They're in hospitals all over the place. And a lot of people have had an mri. You have an injury or they're looking at something in your back or whatever, and it's just a thing. It's a very different experience to do what you're doing at Prenuvo and you had to do, as a fellow engineer, just an insane amount of work in order to do what you're doing. Can you walk me through what's different about Pre Nouveau?

For sure it is. It's quite different. Now, the actual technique, obviously, is MRI is all the same. So that any part of the image, if we were to take. Take them and break them into individual pieces, it'd be the exact same thing as you'd get in the hospital in terms of detail and resolution. But the way I look at an mri, it's effectively, it's a smartphone. So there's basically all these different apps and programs that you can build to run on it to make it go faster. And one of the things that I discovered during medical school and residency is that as an engineer, starting with that area, there's a lot of MRI physicists in the world who build these amazing programs, but they don't have the knowledge or language to be able to cross pollinate into the field of medicine and talk to what doctors want, because they're not doctors.

You can put a marshmallow in there and they're great. I saw the marshmallow and you could put a body in there, but they wouldn't interpret it. And you have the rare mind that can do both, because very few Doctors make great engineers.

Right. And vice versa.

Yeah, exactly. So why can you do both?

Well, and, you know, I started out as an engineer as a child. I always wanted to be an engineer. Never wanted to go into medical school at all. And then went and did my PhD in biomedical engineering at Northwestern, did machine vision, surgical, robotics, and applied physiology, working with a lot of doctors. And they tried to convince me and my colleagues to go into medical school. So I'm the dumb one who did. Okay. And then in medical school, you know, I kind of realized, wow, you know, there's a lot of things that we can understand from an engineering point of view that are really difficult to understand from a medical point of view, because the mathematics or the physics is just not there in medical school. You know, like, for example, an mri. The way it works, we actually take radio waves from your body and we actually convert them using something called a Fourier transform that then goes and creates an image. And. And most physicians haven't a clue what a Fourier transform is. They barely actually know how to do calculus, whereas an engineer. It's like, I've done the most advanced calculus you can get at graduate school. And so, as a result, I've been able to put on one hat, saying, this is what I want the images to look like from a medical point of view so all my medical colleagues can look at them and understand exactly what we're seeing. But then from a physics point of view, I can tell the physicist, this is how I need you to make it in order for my medical colleagues to understand and for me to understand what I'm looking at. Because medicine is, particularly in radiology and nuclear medicine is very much, you see it, you recognize it, you know what it is. Right. You know, it's one of the things we say we don't know what we don't know. And so medicine is all about pattern recognition, looking at things, understanding them. And, you know, you can. I can look at a simple lesion, say, okay, that's benign, nothing to worry about. Whereas I can look at something and say, well, this is something to worry about. Now, where did I learn that? Well, that's upon the shoulders of all my medical colleagues who basically looked at this and said, okay, this is what this is. Somebody sees a problem, they get it removed. And then the pathologist looks at the cells underneath the microscope, and then they say, yep, that was a problem. And that iterative feedback trains the next generation. And that's kind of the slow cycle that is medicine.

Yes. And it can go sideways, too, if everyone thinks it's supposed to look like this and it's not. We can make really big mistakes, like believing that Alzheimer's is caused by plaques even though the original study was wrong. Or believing that depression is caused by a serotonin thing. Oh, sorry. That was wrong, too. And that can lead us down for decades. The wrong track. I'm excited that with AI and with data and with actual technology, that we can take the mistake curve that sometimes is 40, 50, 60 years in medicine and get it down to two years ago. It doesn't work, so we change it. And what you did, which is just fascinating to me, like, oh, let me just write some code, or have your team write it, that uses the data from the MRI in a new way. And what that means is I can go there, I can spend an hour and a half kind of immobilized. It's actually very meditative. I kind of doze off a few times, and then you can see everything. And I have it on my phone. I show people. I was going to see Dr. Marcella, who is doing some work inside my spine of stem cells, and she's like, you don't have an mri. I go, actually, I do, and it's on my phone. She's like, what is this? Because it's that cool. So let me ask you this, because people are already kind of wondering. You've opened now. When I first went there, you were just in Vancouver. You've now spread. You're in multiple cities, you're just opening in la, you're in San Francisco and some other places you told me Dallas. Dallas, okay.

Minnesota.

Minnesota, of course, because there's all the testing stuff there. So what does it cost? I mean, it probably varies by city, but what's an approximate number to get my MRI done?

Yeah. So we have three studies, but the comprehensive one, which is what you got, is $2,500 for that scan.

Okay.

And then the most inexpensive one, where we just look at the torso, is 999. So $1,000. Okay.

And it's covered in the US by flexible spending accounts, right?

I believe so. That basically depends on the insurance. But we don't understand any of the insurance. That's not my focus.

Let me be straightforward. So if you have insurance, great. It's good if you get in a car accident or you have a critical thing in the us Everything else, your insurance company's job is to bore you and waste your time and energy by saying no until you give up and go away. So it's not useful for regular stuff. And there is no reason except history that you should look to your employer to provide insurance. It's a stupid thing from the time when there was a paternalistic, almost ownership view of companies to employees. So you shouldn't have to go begging for coverage there. You should just be able to buy it. The US Is hopelessly broken, but what you can do is you can take pre tax money and you can put it in your flexible spending account, up to something like four or five grand a year and spend it on almost whatever you want. That's medical ish. Which what that means is that you could get a whole body head to toe, know everything that's going on, have a baseline for $2,500, depending on what tax bracket you're in. You were going to give 1000 of that back to the government anyway. So it's a pretty good deal given that cancer detection tests. If you wanted to detect just one kind of cancer right now, what does that run?

Well, it depends on what you're going to look at. So, for example, you know, things like ovarian cancer are very difficult to find. The best way to detect that is going to be with CT or mri. And those can typically range from like a low low of $500 to we've seen things as high as $3,000, $4,000 for a study.

Okay, so you can look for one kind of cancer for at best 500 bucks, or you could look for all of the Torso cancers for $1,000 and you can do it pre tax. So I just think this is not cheap, but it is terribly inexpensive compared to 5 years ago. You couldn't do all this kind of cancer detection, all the other 500 things. My advice has now changed. I tell everyone, when you're in your mid-20s, get your hormones done, advanced hormone panels. So you know what you should have because your testosterone levels, when you feel great, they might be different. They might be twice as high or twice as low as normal in a study. So if you don't know when you have to correct your hormones later, you won't know. If you were to get a picture of your spine and your organs and you're 25, you have that forever, right? And that means when you're 40, you can say, oh, that's weird, I'm seeing advanced acceleration in this. I better address it. Otherwise you just don't know. So this is one of those snapshot to stay young forever. That's pre nouveau. That's why I'm pretty excited about this.

Yeah, well, and as you say, you know, that's the real power of the baseline, where we can actually start to see these subtle changes that occur over time. You know, one of the things which is really fascinating, for example, in my case, I have my images of my spine over the course of 11 years, and you can actually start to see how by sitting in a chair all the time, I'm starting to get a bit more and more of what we call kyphosis. I'm more hunched over. And as you know, when you see a lot of older people, you'll see that, you know, they're quite hunched over again because of posture. Now, one of the problems with the medical system is that we basically wait until it's broken. So it's quite reactive. We don't really start to address the problem before it becomes an issue that needs, you know, surgical intervention or something bad. And that's kind of what we want to do, is try and find it before it becomes a surgical problem, is to try and find things early. It's not just cancers. It's almost in everything where you want to find it early because the outcome is better and you can actually change and course correct before it becomes a problem.

Wow. I'm of the opinion that over the next five years, Pre Nouveau and some other technologies coming along as well in concert are going to radically change our ability to spot cancer before it becomes a problem. Like cancer should be 20% of the problem it is today. In five years, if a large number of people get this kind of scan and do the other things that are coming along that I think are they just work together. Things like the VI M test to do oral cancers, things like a liquid biopsy and this, you can pretty much know you don't have any of the cancers that are likely to happen. And that means you just got rid of the four killers. These are the four things from my anti aging book. It's cardiovascular disease, cancer, diabetes, and Alzheimer's. Of those, which ones can you sense with Prenuva?

So we can actually see Alzheimer's or actually not Alzheimer's. We actually get a baseline of your brain so we can actually look and see how it changes over time. And that's really quite important because again, if you have a baseline of your brain, the goal is to basically see how it changes over time. We know that the brain volume or the brain volumes start to shrink slowly. We've seen about a 3% per decade decline in brain volumes. But now, for example, people with Alzheimer's, that's going to be much faster. But the whole Thing is, like, typically when we wait for amyloid plaque or something to develop, it's effectively like scar. It's too late. So the whole goal is to try and find it when you're just starting that decline again. The only way to do that is to have a baseline and compare over time. And that differential is far more powerful than just a single point in time when you're wondering, do I have it? Do I not?

So the speed of change in any body system is a great indicator of what's happening. And if you're like me and you're saying change is unacceptable unless it's in the direction I choose, that means you can take the system that's going the way you don't want and say, well, that's the one that needs the most attention first. So then you apply the interventions. Maybe you do something from upgrade labs, Maybe you change how you eat, you change how you sleep, you change how your posture works. With a functional movement person, there's all kinds of stuff, but if you know, you know. So my goal is to keep everything completely level. I probably will fail at that goal, but that's okay. That's my goal, and maybe to even make it look like it used to look. Except I don't know because I don't have a baseline scan from when I was in my 20s. So if I did, it probably would have been worse because I was so sick back then anyway. Do you see people improve over time when they get a scan and then they come back a year or two later?

We do, actually. And I think a lot of it has to do with just knowing. The biggest question is to know, what do I need to work on? What do I need to, you know, what's going on under the skin? Because it's basically, you can't see it. And that's where a picture is worth a thousand words, where you're actually able to see what's going on, you're able to understand it. And that's one of the other pieces that we do in Prenuvo is we actually put together a report that's understandable to patients and consumers. So I don't know if you remember, but back in 2019, I was meeting with every single patient who came into the clinic in Vancouver. And as we have a lot of medical speak that can be or jargon that we use in the field of medicine, but actually learn to simplify it so that everybody can understand it. And that's really the goal.

You can't do that. It's the goal, you Realize if doctors spoke in normal language, they couldn't charge as much. I mean, come on, man.

Well, no, the goal is that when anybody, doesn't matter what they have, have a problem, we are all going to go online and search it up to try and understand it as best as we can. And people, unfortunately get lost. And the whole goal is to provide them with like some kind of solid background that they can actually build on to sort of understand what's going on. Because when you're ill or a loved one is ill, there's nothing more important than trying to understand and help them.

It's true. So people can go online, not to Google, and they can look around and they can find something, but if you've explained it to them well, they're going to know what they're seeing. And if you haven't explained it well, they haven't. So what's changed over my last appointment in this one?

So when we actually look at things, obviously there was a surprise. Oh, you just have the solitary kidney. Now. One of the things which is amazing is that, as you can imagine, the kidney, as we all get older, starts to change and decrease in size. Basically, its function and output starts to decrease. So one of the things that in medicine, really all we actually have is a single line or a ruler to be able to measure top to bottom. We've actually built all these AI algorithms that actually allow us to look at the volume of the kidney.

Oh, that's important.

The volume of the organs, to see how they start to change. So in your case, looking at the kidney, it actually looks like it's held really nice. And still.

I can tell you why.

And more importantly, we know that because of that single kidney, your kidney is actually compensated to be larger than normal to be able to handle the amount of diuresis that the kidneys normally do.

Got it. So I have a super mega kidney because I'm more evolved than anyone else. I was born actually with one kidney. Didn't know it till I was 30 because my kidney's twice as large. What that means, though, for me is that if I did have a problem with my kidney, I'd want to know it early because I only have one because I have a spare bay for another one if I needed it. But what I want to know is if what I'm doing is keeping my kidney healthy and strong. And we know high blood pressure is destructive kidneys, I don't have that. In fact, I have low blood pressure, which isn't a good thing either, but I have it and it's a genetic thing. I've had it for my whole life, and it sucks, but I manage it. And so then most people over time, like, say they decline. But I think it's because they're eating kale and spinach and grains and a bunch of other things that are nephrotoxic, including ochratoxin A, which is the primary toxin in beer and wine and coffee. Well, not the coffee I drink. But the bottom line is, if you know your kidneys are a weak point and they're a common cause of death. Right. Maybe you could protect them. There's a supplement called bemphotiamine, which is a derivative of vitamin B1 that's shown to be protective of the kidney. Have I been taking that since I found out I had one kidney? Yeah, I have. So there's stuff that you would know if you had a prenupo scan, and then you can take corrective action. But if you don't know something of that magnitude, well, then you're just going to go out and drink the beer and the moldy coffee and whatever else, and that's what it is. Talk to me about pancreatic cancer. This is the Steve Jobs cancer, right?

Yeah. As you know, it's like one of the most deadly cancers that there are. And the reason why is typically, again, because it's found late. And the whole goal, like any of the cancer detection that we do with Prnuva, is for early detection. And so with pancreatic cancer, we're able to see the pancreas beautifully. We're actually able to see the pancreatic duct. So as you know, the pancreas, it's a gland that basically secretes enzymes into the small bowel to basically be able to digest food. And so that there's a duct that all of these, I guess, excrete directly into. And we can actually see and trace that duct back. And so the earliest form of cancer is where that duct will actually have a little branch off of it that starts to become cancer or it gets blocked, and we're able to pick that out. And now one of the keys to be able to doing that is, again, if you find pancreatic cancer in stage one, there are procedures called Whipple's procedure, that actually is potentially curative.

Wow.

Whereas quite often you find it again stage three, where pancreatic cancer is wrapped around the blood vessels that drain all the blood from your stomach and abdomen and small bowel and feed the liver. And you can't now remove it because you're no longer able to digest food and process it through the liver. So that's where stage one pancreatic cancer is really important to be able to detect in early stage.

So you can do that for people. And that is a major killer. And it's, like I said, it's very hard to treat. Now, back when I first started Bulletproof, I met a professor from UC San Diego named Dr. Larry Smar. And he had taken his colonoscopy data and he 3D printed his colon because he was having colon problems and went on essentially a clean keto cyclical diet and magically fixed his colonial. But having that, all the doctors are like, how could you possibly have a visualization like that? Like, we see images, but we can't do it. So why do I want to know? That was almost 10 years ago in your case. How soon do we get a honey, I shrunk the kids kind of VR experience where I can go in and like cruise through my own body and see what it looks like. Because you have the data.

We do have the data. The whole idea is that right now the data is in the regular medical format. So more importantly, if a doctor or somebody who's trying to help you needs to see it, they can look at it in a way that they can understand it. Now can you actually go and take that data and manipulate it to make a 3D model? Sure, you could. We don't do it now, but anybody could take that data because once you get a scan, you have access to your data. It's on your cell phone or it's online, on the web, where you get entirely able to see it, download it, do whatever you want with it, manipulate it as you want, but the whole goal of it is to give it to you, the patient, so that what you want to do with it is your choice.

Guys, if you want to inspire a generation of biohackers, do that. Just allow a 7 year old to go in and fly through their own body using VR goggles. You want to do some powerful meditation, even healing meditation. You can do crazy stuff with this level of visualization because we just never had this before. So I'm pretty excited. And I know that what you're doing is you're saying, well, I'd rather see the organ volume because that's really indicative of a medical thing. And that's just not, you know, not, not what we're worried about. Right?

Well, you know, it's, it's, it's still, the whole goal is like, you know, number one, to, to Help patients prevent, you know, we don't want to detect cancer late, obviously, number one. But we also want to empower people to understand what's going on in their body and to be able to be able to talk about it in a way that, you know, us in the medical profession can understand. So the communication is quick and easy because there's nothing more stressful than getting a diagnosis and not knowing what to do, you know, like, you know, I've unfortunately had to give people those types of diagnoses where they're like, look, you've got, you know, stage four metastatic disease. And I asked them, you know, do you have this symptom? This symptom? And I'm stunned. They're like, no, you know, I feel perfectly fine, or I have shoulder pain, or that's why I came in. And you're just like, well, this.

Yeah, shoulder pain might be a little worse than shoulder pain. Right?

Yeah. And unfortunately, we've, you know, we've all seen that all too often. And that, that was really like the impetus to, to start doing this with mri. Because the benefit of MRI is it's, you know, the pinnacle of imaging. You know, we have X ray, which is ubiquitous, which looks at bones. We have ultrasound, which looks at blood flow. We have CT scan, which is a three dimensional X ray. But then at the very top of that is mri. And the beauty of MRI is that there's no radiation, but you get the greatest amount of detail.

Very cool. There's also SPECT scans, right? Which are. And there's FMRI scans. Can you talk to me about MRI versus FMRI versus spectrum? For sure. And by the way, I'm on Dr. Amen's board of directors, so please don't shit. A lot of respect. Unless you want to, in which case, I'm curious, but I like spec.

I know the answer. Remember, I'm a nuclear medicine physician, so.

I was assuming you would not. You respect them.

Oh, boy. That's a good one. That's a really good. I like that. But no, the real power of nuclear medicine is that we actually look at functional how things work, right? And that's the real power. So when we look at radiology, it's more like anatomic, like, what is a structure? And so what we've done with Pernuvo is we've actually gone and take the functional imaging that's present in nuclear medicine and we apply it to a MRI scan that radiologists understand. So that power of synchronizing, like a nuclear medicine functional type study without radiation, with the radiology studies is basically incredibly powerful. And so with spect, what we're doing is we're depending on the type of radiopharmaceutical we're using, we can look at all sorts of things from brain perfusion. And so brain perfusion can be looked at multiple different ways. FMRI is effectively a similar MRI to what we do. We're just now looking at how it functions. So SPECT and nuclear medicine, we look at how things function. And this is where the real beauty and why my fascination with MRI came about is because, like I said, it's a smartphone. We can go and take a sequence that looks at functional blood flow and apply it on the machine that we have at Pernuvo. We can apply any of these things to it. It's a matter of like, what is sort of the optimal balance of time for yield of information that we want to get. And that's one of the things that we've been able to solve is that that issue of time. Most MRIs, like, if you were to try and do what we did today, it would take you well over three hours and you just get little bits and pieces like a jigsaw puzzle not put together. Whereas our scan is just under an hour. And we're able to see everything with a level of detail that you would expect from any hospital, high quality hospital in the country.

It was not a lot of time. It's like a gel cushion thing. You lay in this thing and yeah, you're required to hold still and hold your breath occasionally. So you can be still, but it's just relaxing. I would say there's some noise, but you have headphones on that are blocking it out. So you just lay there and you're like, there's nothing to do. You just have to not move. So for me, it's just kind of a meditative thing and then you're done. And it was very minor. I also don't have claustrophobia. What do you do if people claustrophobia?

Actually, I don't know if you noticed on the machine. It's like we actually have the ability to watch Netflix on the back. And so for some people.

You didn't tell me that. And I could have watched Breaking Bad again.

So for. For people who are claustrophobic, actually, we found that with this, they really don't have much of an issue as well. The bore is a lot more open, so you can actually see out through both sides. And so you don't have that sort of claustrophobic feeling. A lot of other older machines, people describe them to be like in a coffin because it's just long tube and the front of it is like three, three inches from your face. And it's quite disconcerting. Whereas, you know, I've had so many patients who come in and say, you know, I had one at a hospital and it was like a frightening experience. I came here, it was like, as you said, relaxing. And more importantly, they come out and they get all of this information about what is going on. And that empowerment is so valuable to patients. And that's what you can get with Prineuvo.

That's incredible. I know that. We just did my scan and I'm gonna be a little selfish here. So pancreatic cancer. Did you look at my pancreas yet?

I did. Looks fine.

Oh, see? Told you so. Just probably because I didn't go on the zero fat ornish diet, which is what Steve Jobs was eating. Perhaps high carb, low fat, plant toxin, heavy diets increase pancreatic cancer risk. You think? You don't have to answer that.

I was going to say, like, one of the biggest things is that, you know, we just don't know. Right. And there's this randomness to a lot of it. And this is the beauty that we can eliminate that randomness. Like, there's. There's nothing, nothing worse than, you know, a single mother sort of dying from pancreatic cancer or any cancer and having no idea it was there until it's too late, you know? And like, that's the goal. Like, that's the goal of what we're doing is to prevent that kind of tragedy.

What about aneurysms? That's another really big thing. You would never know if you're at risk for an aneurysm because it hasn't popped yet. Right. And if you're listening, you don't know what an aneurysm is. Basically a thin blood vessel in the brain that could pop and is probably stretching. How small can you see them? Walk me through the prenuvo aneurysm story.

Exactly. So what we do is we, as I mentioned, MRI is this equipment that allows you to look at all sorts of different things. And so what we do is, is we actually look at the blood in the brain and the blood vessels within what's called the circle of Willis, which are the blood vessels in the center of the brain. And so if there's like a small balloon, which is what an aneurysm is, if it grows the larger it gets, the Greater the risk of it rupturing. And unfortunately, if it ruptures, more than nine out of 10 people will die from that almost instantly. And these are the people who basically quite often will have, like, a severe headache. They'll go in and out of hospital, and if they don't get the proper type of CT sequence, called an angiogram, they might not even know it's there. And then they pass away, unfortunately, at home. And so with a prenuvo scan, we can actually go on screen for that to see if there's an aneurysm. And if there is, it can be treated ahead of time to make sure that it doesn't rupture. Or if it's small, we can actually monitor it and make sure it doesn't grow.

How often do you find those? Like, what percentage of patients have an aneurysm who didn't know about it?

I believe it's about 0.8%. So under 1%.

Okay, good deal. And so I'm assuming you didn't see any big smoking aneurysms. For me, no. What's the worst one you've ever found?

The worst one was actually. And this is actually a frightening story. So we actually found a lady who had a 6 millimeter aneurysm. And so typically, anything over 5 millimeters is go to surgery.

And this is a brain one in the brain.

And so she had a 6 millimeter aneurysm. We sent the report off to her and her doctor. And then what we decided to do is follow up with all these patients to see, you know, what happened. And so we called the patient. Thank goodness, she answered the phone, and she said, oh, my doctor told me this is nothing to worry about.

Holy crap.

And we're just like, oh, my God. And so we wound up sending her to a different physician, who then sent her to a neurosurgeon who treated it.

Wow.

You know, and it was actually quite frightening. And, you know, it's just one of the things that, you know, information is power. And when people know what's going on and they understand it, you know, they're very, I guess, empowered to know what to do. You know, sometimes it can be scary. But more importantly, it's like the scariest part is just not knowing what's going on. And that's what we're able to provide, is what is happening at a level that any patient can understand and any of the doctors can understand. And that's where we see pernuvo being the great equalizer in the fact that Actually helps doctors treat their patients better because doctors don't know what's going on under the skin because the physical exam that's used unfortunately finds things late.

If you poke someone to see if they have cancer and you feel it, it's probably pretty big, right?

Exactly.

That's what they're doing in an annual checkup. It's pretty much useless, unfortunately.

Yeah. And the thing is, medicine has really not had a lot of tools to really do much beyond that. There's things like people using ultrasound to try and look around, but things like pancreatic cancer can be very difficult to see on ultrasound because ultrasound cannot penetrate through bowel gas. And so therefore, you don't see the pancreas quite often.

Oh. So vegans are at higher risk because when you do an imaging study on them, they fart all the time, so you just can't see as much.

Well, if somebody has a lot of bowel gas from, I don't know, whatever diet or who knows what they ate, but the whole idea is that the ultrasound beam can't pass through it.

I'm sorry, that was the stupidest thing I've ever said, but I'm still laughing. It's my seventh grade sense of humor, but technically it's true. But no, there's other reasons that you want to eat animals because you love Mother Nature, for instance. But we won't get into that.

I was going to say that. And this is the beauty of mri is that it can actually see right through all of that.

Ah, okay.

Bowel gas is not.

Did I have a lot of bowel gas?

No, you're pretty normal. You're pretty normal.

This is a fun interview for me.

Anyway, you know, and like that. That's the interesting thing with the mri. It's like you. You can't hide anything.

Exactly.

You know, like, there's no surprises.

So what's the most embarrassing thing in my mi.

Wow. Asymmetric prostate gland.

Asymmetric prostate gland. It was like, one side bigger than the other. And what is that from?

I have no idea.

It's not like a tumorous sort of thing. No, it's just probably some recreational things.

It's just the. I guess the way you were made. I have no idea. But it hasn't changed in three years, and that's the important part.

So I just have an idea. Unusual prostate, a little bit bigger on.

The left and the right.

If I wanted to get, like, the data and then make a 3D printing, like a necklace of my prostate gland.

Could we do that for sure you can do that. We'll give you the date of what you want to do with it. It's so cool.

Do you guys know how cool that is? You get a 3D print of any of your organs, even your prostate. I don't know why you'd want that. But, I mean, as a matter of fact, you could probably do that and give it to someone as a gift.

If you'd like to. You can do that. But it just sort of tells you about how amazing the human body is. Like all different parts and bits and pieces and how we're, you know, it's not just our fingerprint that's unique. Everything inside is unique. And this, the pernuvo scan, allows us to see all that and more importantly, to see how it's changing because we evolve and see how. How everything is evolving with time.

It. It's the delta change over time that is the holy grail for anti aging. And I've written a big, well received book on all the stuff for anti aging. And the problem is your ability to detect those four big killers. Well, diabetes, okay, that you can see. Blood sugar changes again over time. So if you're using continuous glucose monitoring, like my levels thing here, or you're looking at a few things like HBA1C, you can start to see that one which is a precursor to the others. But after that, cancer is like, I don't know. Right. And that's a massive one in cardiovascular disease. What's the prenuvo take on that? Like, what could you see? What could you not see? Because that's another one you probably don't know until it's too late.

Right. Well, and realistically, when we look at cardiovascular disease, what we're actually looking on, on the prenuval scan is more microvascular disease. So we can actually see small blockages, particularly in the brain, whereas the actual heart, the coronary arteries, the plumbing of the heart, which is what everybody's interested in for heart attack risk that we don't see because of the fact that the heart is always moving.

Right.

Earlier you were saying I had to hold my breath a few times. Well, that's because MRI doesn't like motion.

You could have told me to stop my heart during that time. I would have.

No, thanks. But that's why we get you to hold your breath. So we can look at the lungs and we can actually see the detail that we need to see. Whereas in the heart, obviously, it's beating during the course of the study, so we can't look at the Coronary arteries. Well, but we can see if the heart is big. We can see if there's a fluid collection around the heart. We can see if there's any aneurysm in the aorta.

What about calcium score for cardiovascular? That's something that I did a while ago. It was like 0.6 or something like that. Almost like it goes from 0 to 100 or something. How does a prenuva scan compare to a calcium scar?

Right. So for looking at, so the core, the calcium score is really again looking for coronary artery calcification. So because MRI isn't looking at the coronary arteries, we're not helpful. Where we are helpful is once you get to the smaller and smaller blood vessels, particularly at the capillary or pre capillary level in the brain when any of those are blocked due to, you.

Know, the usual soft or calcified plaque. Either one.

Mainly soft.

Mainly soft.

Okay, we'll actually start to see the impact of those small blood vessels being blocked because we see these little white spots in the brain. And that white spot in the brain is basically like scarred or injured brain tissue. Now the question is, what is it caused by? And that's typically due to the atherosclerotic disease. So diabetes, high blood pressure, smoking. So we'll actually see that, that impact.

How was my brain? Did I have lots of white spots?

No, actually your brain looks good. Again, hasn't changed.

And this is an important thing. I had toxin induced brain damage that was showing up on a SPECT scan with Dr. Amen. I had big problems there and just really a dysfunctional brain. And to know that it looks normal, I don't have any of that stuff. And guys, I'm sort of the grass fed butter king. You could say I have been eating meat, grass fed, animal meat, Butter, at least 50% of my calories from fat and 50% of my fat or more is saturated fat for about 15 plus years. And I don't have any white spots in my brain. Clearly what I'm doing is very dangerous.

Well, that's why it's good to have a baseline to see how it changes.

If it was, I would change. That's also why I got a calcium scar. The reason I did that, I started drinking a bunch of mineral water because there's studies showing mineral water is good for you. But I'm concerned about too much calcium because calcium will deposit all over the body and that's a problem. So I said I want to see whether what I'm doing works. After two Years of that. And it turns out, who would have thought that if you do vitamin D, A, K and E, strangely, the K and the D and the A in particular work together to keep that from happening unless you're taking a ton of calcium. So I knew that I was doing it right. But I wanted to verify if you're sitting here watching this going, oh, I went plant based because I heard someone say that eating less animal protein would lower mtor. Guys, carbs increase MTOR more than animal protein. Let's just be straightforward. But okay, if you do that for a year and then you get your prenupo before and after. Let's see the data. And if you don't like what you see, then you change what you do. And for me, I was a raw vegan, so it's like I've been down these paths and just waiting till you feel like crap is hard. And I think Prenuvo offers a reasonable way to do this. And really, for my next checkup, I could do just the torso one, which is under $1,000.

Right.

And I could do pre tax money on that. So that's really about 600, 650 bucks, depending what state you live in.

Okay.

That's in range with most blood work that I do and it's kind of neat, so I'm pretty stoked on that. And you're doing one in Dallas. I'm moving to Austin, so it's not a two hour drive. I could do that.

Right. Well, and I was just going to step back and sort of talk about the calcification. So.

Yeah, tell me about that.

MRI doesn't see calcification because basically when we think of an mri, it's a hydrogen imager. So we're basically, we're looking at water and fat and interplay between those. Whereas calcification that you would see, it's invisible. It's invisible.

It's an empty spot.

Right, exactly. So we see a black hole. Now this is where a CT or X ray, that's what they excel at. They actually excel at looking at calcification. That's what X ray. X ray sees bone. We see the calcium in the bone. And CT is a three dimensional X ray, so it picks up that calcium really well. And the benefit of a ct, for example, is to look at the coronary artery calcification is because it's so fast. But again, the faster you go, the more radiation you need. So it's a risk balance. Right. And it's the type of thing that, you know, we know that to Screen with something like CT is not a good idea just because of the radiation involved. Plus you don't get the level of soft tissue detail that you get with mri. So as a result, in the past a lot of people were screening with ct, which is a very bad idea.

Lots of radiation, right?

Lots of radiation, lots of false positives. You had no idea what you're looking at because you don't have the tissue contrast. And that's where we're able to reduce our false positives because we're combining form and function, the radiology and the nuclear medicine. And that really allows us to be very specific about what we're finding, which is quite unique to what we do.

Okay, that's really cool. And I would say from what I understand about imaging, which is nowhere near as much as you, but as a biohacker, I think your baseline regular stuff is actually electrical heart rate variability. You could do that pretty cheap, come and do an upgrade labs and we've got some very high tech stuff to look at mitochondrial function from an electrical perspective. It's awesome. But the resolution of that data can tell us a lot metabolically, but it has no bearing unless you're very, very sick on any of the 500 plus things that you can spot. So those are like basic. If your heart rate variability is going down and down and down, look for some kind of disease, right? Maybe do a pre nouveau something isn't right, so you can detect that. But then what else are you going to do? You need to do your thyroid and your sex hormones on a regular basis. And given the cost now, if you're on the type of program where you're saying, I'm going to spend a few thousand dollars a year on your health now you could hear that and go, screw you, Dave. How dare you do that. I can also tell you that there's tons of people who are willing to do it. For much of my life, when I didn't make a lot of money, I spent 20% of my income on my health because I was so sick from toxic mold. It was actually a fixed budgetary item. So I just want you to understand this is what it costs. Now. Do you think this will be cheaper in 10 years?

I hope so.

Well, do you think this will be broadly available? I think it will, yeah.

And what's actually starting to happen in the, particularly overseas, in Europe, it's becoming the new physical exam. There's a group in Italy as well as UK that are actually now starting to bring this into the forefront because again, as we Talked about the clinical exam, where you're going and pressing on different organs. It's just too late. And by detecting things early with mri, we're able to find things earlier. And that's the movement that's starting in Europe.

So you're looking at taking the prenova software and actually using it in Europe. That's what they're using at some point.

Yeah, the analysis software. The analysis right now is still done their traditional radiology way, where we look at the images and we go through every single detail. But the goal is to actually get AI to start to look at those subtle changes, like volume changes and organ changes over time that the eye is not good at, whereas imaging is very good to reproduce. And so that's what we're bringing in is what we call quantitative reproducibility, where we can actually start to see these subtle changes over time. Like, for example, on your study, we were looking at the curvature of your spine. Now, normally in medicine, we wait until there's a problem and we never really worry about it. Whereas in yours, we were looking at your thoracic curvature. What we call the kyphosis was like 30 degrees. We're looking at your lumbar lordosis, that was 35 degrees.

So how do those rank according to normal?

Perfectly normal. Okay. But the whole idea is that now we have these numbers that we can actually start to track and start to see when they change.

So if I go to 32 and I'm hunching, you're going to see it and then you're going to tell me.

Exactly.

Okay.

And so, for example, in my case of 11 years of scanning, we actually, you know, we built this AI algorithm that we're allowed, we're able to then apply to my data. And you can see that over the course of the past few years by sitting more, that my curvature is actually getting worse and worse. And what's that going to do? It's going to start to induce things like abnormal shear. Abnormal shear can now start to possibly induce arthritis. And I think arthritis is one of the fascinating things. It's like it's so ubiquitous, but we have no idea how it develops.

Most of it, I think, is autoimmune. To be honest, I think there are people who'd be arguing about that. But it's interesting how it gets turned on by certain foods and other things.

Well, but the thing is, it's so common. We talk about getting older in the 60s, 70s, 80s type of thing. It's, you know, kind of. Oh, well, that's sort of normal for age. Well, if we want to live older and healthier, we don't want that to be there in our sick.

I don't believe anything is normal for age. It's all pathological for age.

Right? Well, yeah, and that's the goal is, like, with imaging, we can actually understand where we are and kind of see what triggers change. Right. And that's the beauty. You know, it's like kindergarten. It's like show and tell. We can see what's going on, you know, can explain it with a single picture, and we can understand. Oh, well, this is what changed. Why did it change? Oh, was I sitting too much? Was I not exercising? Was I, you know, getting too fat? Who knows?

What eating fake meat? I mean, who knows?

Yeah. Is my visceral fat increasing? You know, you know, as you know, that's the more of the deadly fat. And so that's typically very difficult to measure. Whereas with our AI algorithms, we can actually now go and pull out all the visceral fat.

How was my visceral fat?

That looked pretty good. Looked really good. Okay, I don't have the number because I.

You're downloading it. Okay.

Yeah.

Now, are you doing it in volume or pounds? I guess Volume of fat. Okay, just fine. But you could correlate that because it's the same density. Well, slightly less dense if they eat more Omega 6, but not enough to matter. Right. It's like a 1% difference.

Yeah. Well, the whole idea is, you know, right now nobody has a real measure of it, so the goal is to basically start to pull out something as a volume and then say, well, here it is. How has it changed? So, you know, let's say you decide to change your diet. How is it going to impact your visceral fat, your muscle mass? What's going to happen?

We track it electrically. A pretty accurate algorithm. At upgrade labs, when people come in, we're looking at some people who are skinny fat. Oh, it looks so good. You don't look good inside. Right. And that's when we can track on a daily or whenever you come in basis, which is really cool. But the level of accuracy and, you know, is it all around the kidneys or is all around the liver? You're going to see so much more from a prenuvo. But I like knowing when I go in whether if mine shifted by 5 or 10%, I would know because every time I come in, I get a little graph and it says, how do you rank? And right now I have slightly below average visceral fat. For an 18 year old. Good. That's where I want to be. That's on that scan. But if you'd have told me it was really high on prenuva, then I'm like, okay, were my feet dirty when I did my electrical scan or what's going on? But this is for me, more curiosity and for people listening, visceral fat. It's fat around your organs. It's super dangerous that you can't see. So how would you know? Well, you actually wouldn't unless you did an analysis in detail at Prenuvo and we'd give you a pretty good directional number at upgrade labs, but we're not going to do anywhere near the level of detail you get from a full whole body mri. And I think that's normal and healthy just to get a baseline number. Same thing electrically. If you're getting your heart rate variability, it's not the same as getting your heart rate all day long from a chest strap, which is different than getting an ekg, a portable ekg, which you can do. In fact, I worked Geez. At a company called Corventis many years ago, which was the first portable take home works over the Internet. Portable ekg, I guess. Really cool. So we're getting better and better, but none of that is going to do what an MRI does. But I think it all works together to give you this picture that says, holy crap, I'm doing really well, or let's pinpoint this one spot that's the most important. And let's work on that. Now that's my question for you. Given what you've seen in my mri, if you were to tell me to work on one thing, what would it be?

Actually, I'd have to look at the analysis today, but from last year, you had asymmetry in your left and right leg muscles of your iliopsoas.

Yep, that's right. In fact, I'm dealing with a psoas issue right now. So some functional movement that's probably related to a foot injury that I had repaired last year, I did a document on how to heal fast from surgery. Daveasprey.com heal if you guys didn't see it, all the tech that I used to recover super fast, so maybe that helped. But I know I still have functional movement and retraining to do. So it's cool that you can spot that. It's actually really fascinating.

And that's again, the benefit of the AI. Our AI is actually able to go and track your muscles. And again, those subtle changes look at asymmetry left to right, that me as a radiologist looking at it be like, well, you know, that's just you. And don't worry about it because not a real medical issue to worry about. And so we just pass over it. But the AI can actually go through all these things and start to quantify these different pieces of muscles, fat, organs, everything to see how it changes. And that's the real power of AI. And I think to your earlier question, will the price of MRI come down? Well, it's really going to be when it becomes better, technologically enabled to extract more and more of this information. And that'll bring the cost down. As scans get faster and as the analysis gets quicker, that'll bring the cost.

Or as you get nicer because you actually for listeners, guys, you know, anytime someone comes on the show who's running a company, I'm like, come on, share with listeners. So he's giving you $300 off a whole body scan at Prenuvo. Go to Prenuvo P R-E-N-U V-O.com Dave and it's 2199 instead of 2,500 bucks. And you can still use your FSA if you're in the US and what that means is you can get a baseline. And yeah, it's not cheap, but it's also very cheap compared to just cancer diagnostics for each of those things to see if you have something. So it's the bargain of a lifetime if you were going to go out and spend $20,000 on other stuff. So it's crazy effective. It's huge amounts of data. But There you go, 300 bucks off. Thank you for the savings. It's super cool. And let's get through. March 10, 2023. Six locations in the U.S. and Canada and some more coming around after that. So I think you're going to see a good number of listeners who are saying, I'm going to prioritize this in my annual spend because it's just removes so many uncertainties like dozens and dozens of them where you just don't know. Knowing more means you're more relaxed and you just don't have to pay attention to that. And when your attention on your health is dispersed as a biohacker, I don't know what should I do? Should I sleep, Should I eat? Should I exercise? What about this? And you can fall into this like it's a FOMO thing. I'm missing out on something. I know this is going to remove like 50 things from your should I think about that list so you can focus on doing the stuff that matters most to you. And I'm going to say, so do your prenuvo scan. I'm also going to say, come into upgrade labs. Let our intake survey work with you on that, and we'll help to prioritize the results you want to get, and we'll tell you the interventions to do to get there the fastest. So one with prenuvo is, let's remove medical risk by knowing what you have, and so you just don't have to think about it anymore. And then the other side of things is, hey, what should I do first? I don't want you to sit around going, biohacking's overwhelming. It's not. What you want to do is get rid of the big fluffy cloud of not knowing and then pick something and go do it. And what you learned in this interview, you could actually do both of those. And it's remarkably cool. You just got to know Raj. Raj is a true nerd. And the PhD engineering guys, they're always nerds. I'm only a bachelor's degree degree in computer science, so I don't really count. Actually, I'm a super nerd. But on top of that, the medical doctor side. So this is just a unique time when you can take the data and you can take the doctor brain and do it. But now the hard kind of closer question for you. The history of radiology is mostly like guys or women trying to look at pictures and say, that's a good one, that's a bad one. Right? And then write up a report that's expensive, but that's kind of what it is. So about 10, 15 years ago, insurance companies were like, wait a minute, what if I took the X ray here and I sent it to anywhere in the world there's a radiologist who can look at this picture. I'll just email it to them. Essentially, isn't AI going to put all those guys out of jobs?

It's actually a great question because that was sort of the assumption and that AI will actually put them out of a job. But it's much harder than that. You know, I think actually AI is going to make us better radiologists because of the ability to bring in this quantitative reproducibility so that we can actually take, like, the best from one institution and apply it to everybody. Right? Because one of the problems with medicine, unfortunately, is that there's a lot of siloing. And that siloing, you know, it's great for one institution to say, yeah, we're the best at this, or another institution to say, we're the best at this. But the goal is to really take the best of all that and give it to everybody. That's why we all go into medicine, is to really help people. And so one of the key goals of Prenuvo is to basically take the best from everywhere there is, apply it to the MRI scan to show people what's going on, to be able to help them. And so it becomes like the great equalizer, sort of eliminating that reactive medicine that we have and turning it into active, patient engaged and patient focused health care.

Okay, I like that. That was very well scripted. Politically correct answer.

There was no script I just made. That's what we do.

I'm messing with you. I do think there probably will be the baseline boring work of a radiologist that goes away like the very simple screening stuff. And that's not a bad thing. Drudgery. And I've talked to radiologists who are like, God, sometimes I'm looking at these images all day long and it's just boring. So if we can get rid of drudgery, that's what AI ought to be doing for humanity and leaving us to look at that one's juicy what's going on here, and then to pay more attention to that and to let us focus our time in a better way. So I'm hopeful that it goes in that direction.

Exactly. That's the goal of what we have, is to basically eliminate the drudgery, the boring stuff, the hard stuff that basically can be not hard, but the stuff that kind of gets in the way of actually doing the tough diagnostic detective work. And so that's exactly what our AI team is doing. It's of kind getting rid of all the repeat, repeat, repeat stuff that waste our time. And that allows us to focus more on what matters.

It absolutely does. And I'm very excited. Just even the last three years, the change in pre nouveau since I did my first scan, I'm like, this is kind of interesting, but I'm just going to wait and see and to see how you've expanded the number of locations and the capabilities. And you go in and I feel like that old game, was it operation or operator?

Operation.

Right, Operation. You have the tweezers and it like buzzes if you don't pick things up. You see a picture of your own body. Do you have one up on the screen or turn off?

I can bring it up.

So you see a picture of your own body and everything's outlined by AI So here's all the vertebra, here's all the organs. And I want a custom operation where I could just go in and have my own actual organs taken out. So I want to gamify MRI so the kids will be more interested in the human body because it's so hackable, it's so interesting.

Well, you know, with Prenuva, you get all the data and you can do what you want with it.

You know, I do have a 3D printer sitting there.

All right, but that's, you know, like I said, the goal is to empower you to do whatever you want with the data, but most importantly, understand it.

You're probably the only person who might be able to answer this offhand. Is there a portable data format to take the MRI data you have and get it into blender?

You can.

Yeah, guys, blender is what you do for 3D modeling, for 3D printing. All right. I'm going to make my 13 year old son do that.

And interesting. We've actually tried. Does work. Yeah, There's a little bit of image pixelation which you can actually completely smooth out, but it works quite well.

Oh, my God.

And it works really well with the brain. Take the brain, the volumetric brain data, and you can basically take your brain, print it out and rotate it around.

I could 3D print my own brain.

Correct.

What color would it be?

Whatever color you like.

I always try to throw you the sideways questions and you're like, I am an engineer. I will not laugh until after. It's pretty good, Raj.

But one of the other really cool ones is actually to. To go and take the circle of Willis, the arteries inside the brain. So these are the main arteries that feed the brain. And you can actually go and print those out and you can see how they all connect together. And what's really amazing is just a uniqueness that the body brings, you know, Like, I don't know if you're like a real sort of engineering kind of person like myself, who just sort of sits there and looks at your. Your hand and looks at all the creases in your palm and see how they change.

It's amazing.

It is. You know, and as an engineer in medicine, it's like that's why I went into medicine from engineering. It's because the body is the ultimate engineered device. But most of our tools are not great to understand it or analyze it. Okay. And that, and you know, that's the benefit of the prenuvo scan, is that a picture is worth a thousand Words, you can see it, you can understand it. And you know, that's the power of imagery.

Well, now we're getting into some like art and there's those old kind of a little bit disturbing museum pieces. I think they're fascinating, but where they take a human body and they'll stick it in plastic and do thin slices of it. What's it called? Body image or something. You know what I'm talking about. It was in Vancouver for a while. Body works.

Thank you.

Well, you can get your own version of that without having to be dead, which is nice. And so there will be art based on this. I'm already thinking. Not that I'm a very good artist. I'm not. And I'm also an entrepreneur with six companies. That's my art. But I want to print out my own circle of Willis and then have it gold plated or something. And I want to name it. What you talking about?

All right.

Okay. There you go.

You could do that to.

Everyone my age understands what you talking about. Willis is a famous line from some old TV show I forgot which was different strokes. Thank you very much. So anyway, there we go. There's my absolute engineering sense of humor. But you got it. So that means you are definitely a nerd. Thank you, Raj. Prenuvo.com is your company the code or prenuvo.com Dave or just mention my name on the phone, they'll give you a good discount. It's. This is cool stuff. And if it's within reach for you, I think is worthy. Even if you only did it once every 10 years, it's still worthy because the original scan is gold and you'll never get it again. You only get that that shot the first time you have it. And it's your change from there. So consider it as a biohacker and if it's not there for you yet, put it on your bucket list and it'll happen. You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey.