EPISODE #996: Breakthroughs, Stacks & Solutions – Matt Gallant

You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey. You might have heard me talk about sleep before, but there are so many different things you can do to improve your performance in sleeping. What performance? Yes, I just want you to get better sleep in less time, which is why I have a variety of guests on the show talking about sleep and all the different things you can do, because it has the highest ROI of anything besides maybe eating the right way. And it turns out eating the right way makes you sleep better. Sleeping better makes you eat the right way. So it's kind of like the ouroboros, the thing, the snake that eats its own tail. Our guest today has been on the show a few times and is working really hard on creating biohacking formulations that do very specific things that you probably haven't seen before. His name is Matt Gallant. He's trained in kines in kinesiology and strength and conditioning coaching for professional athletes. And you've probably know him from the times he's on the show before. Matt, welcome back.

Always great to be here, and I'm excited to record the greatest sleep episode that's ever happened on your show.

I'm glad that you have low standards, as do I, because if this isn't the best, most informative episode ever, I'm going to be very, very disappointed. And then I'll have to go take a nap because I won't have slept even more efficiently.

Very few people that I've Met have spent 45 grand on improving their sleep. So I'm ready. I'm ready. To all the best of the best and share what worked, what didn't work, and more importantly, help people get better sleep tonight.

You and I are both veteran sleep hackers, and I think you've got some cool stuff to teach about how this works. Talk to me about why sleep is what you're working on next with bioptimizers. Because there's a lot of sleep stuff out there. There's tech, and there's even sleep supplements. So why this?

First, I'll share my sleep stories. In my 20s, I was obsessed with being productive. I was working 80 hours in the gym. I was recording a hard rock album, studying marketing, training twice a day, and trying to live life. So my strategy was let me try to decrease sleep by 15 minutes every few days. My thought was, I can adapt and function. It worked pretty good until I got to sub five hours. It was a really interesting experiment because if I ate the wrong thing, I instantly crashed. If I became even dehydrated like a micro amount, I'd crash. But if I kept everything optimized, I could function. But when I got to four hours, it just crashed and burned. I read a book called Power Sleep by James Moss.

Ah, that old book.

Yeah, it was kind of a revolutionary book at its time and talked about sleeping nine hours a night. So I started doing that. Took me about two months to recover from all the sleep deprivation. And then fast forward a few years, the Zeo comes out, the oura ring comes out and I started tracking my deep sleep. It was zero minutes. It was zero to 15 minutes and a good night. I get 15 minutes and I was sleeping nine hours a night, waking up feeling like crap. And I was three to four pounds dehydrated. I went to get my testosterone tested. It was in the low 200s. It's in my 30s. My body fat was the highest I've ever recorded on a DEXA scan. I just didn't feel good. And I remember I was in Vancouver and I just had that epiphany that the number one thing I can invest in that's going to level up my life on every level is sleep. So since that time, since that moment, I've just been obsessed with enhancing my sleep. And that started the journey. So it was just kind of a gradual thing. I started investing in custom made mattresses by Essentia, which by the way, I think is one of the best mattress companies there is. They were at your show. They're awesome.

I've got a couple of them.

Yeah, great, great technologies. Then the chilipad was a game changer. We'll talk about the sleep disruptors in a little bit. You know, I've got Faraday cages, I've tried all the PEMFs and a lot of stuff works. And one of the most important principles I think, in biological optimization is compounding and stacking. We talked about that before, Dave and you know, each thing was improving. You know, it was going from 15 minutes to 30 to 45 to 60 to 75 and so on and so forth. However, it was only until I started playing around with sleep molecules and targeting different sleep pathways that I really started to get 90 plus minutes of deep in two hours, two and a half, three hours of remaining. So we'll talk about those a little bit. But I think that when you talk about sleep, it's one of the few things that of course, long term, if you look at the longevity data, if you don't sleep enough or if you sleep too much, your longevity is compromised, which is interesting. So I Think if you sleep too much, and I remember you said this on one of your shows, it's probably because you're not that healthy, right? And I've noticed that as I become healthier and healthier, as I optimize my body, I need less sleep. So now I sleep about seven to seven and a half and I feel exponentially better than I did sleeping night. So all the things we're going to talk about today are going to help you again get more efficient sleep, which I know you're a big believer in, Dave, and I am as well, so that you can wake up and feel awesome. But the interesting thing about sleep, it's not just long term. If you have one poor night of sleep, you are compromised the next day. We're talking about damaged DNA. Your neurotransmitters are compromised. Your ability to burn body fat is compared to muscle mass is completely destroyed. Your mood, your ability to exert willpower on the right things, it's just this cascading negative effects and it's immediate. I mean, it would be arguable. Is going to McDonald's and eating a Happy Meal less destructive than one night of bad sleep? Probably not. So it's a really big one. We're talking about some of the damages of sleep. Your hippocampus gets destroyed. When you're too stressed out, your hippocampus will be compromised. And one of the ways you can know that's happening is your short term memory shot. And I've noticed that in my own life, if my stress gets past a certain point, I'll start to notice my short term memory gets compromised. And typically that's your hippocampus. We're talking about DNA damage. Here's an interesting stat. During daylight savings time, when we lose one hour of sleep, heart attacks go up 24% the next day. During the fall, it goes down 21%. So that's how impactful just even losing or gaining one hour of sleep is on our health. I spent six months in Japan. I lived in Japan for a while. It was always shocking to me to see people like literally micro nap on the subways. It seemed like 40, 50% of people were just napping standing up. And yeah, but 38% of people unintentionally fall asleep during the day, which is definitely a sign that you're tired. But the scarier stat, and I remember experiencing this when I was in University. But almost 5% of people admit to falling asleep at the wheel at least once during the past month. So, yeah, sleep is Key. And I think it's kind of the ultimate biohack. I think it's the ultimate. You know, it'll level you up in every single area of your life, both cognitively, mood, body fat, muscle building. Like, it's really the ultimate.

I think it's funny. I would agree with you there. I came at it in a very similar way to you. Like, I'll sleep when I'm dead. Less sleep is better. And I still believe that to a certain point. Not that I'll sleep when I'm dead, but less sleep is better as long as you're getting really good sleep. So that if you're deep sleep and your REM sleep are off the charts, it is better to get more free time as long as you're not paying for it later. And what we were both doing in our twenties was burning ourselves out, getting really bad sleep and probably not enough. And the overtraining thing doesn't help us sleep either, which is something we both did at various times. And it's funny, we both ended up well, God, this is such a pain point. Let's do it. So the goal of this episode is to make it so that if someone has done the same thing, they know what to do. But more likely, most people aren't as weird as you and me to go that far out to say, all right, what do you do to not go there? So you can just fix your sleep, which gives you a lot more power so you don't have to hit the bottom the way we did. So what, what did you spend 45 grand on?

Yeah, let's go through that list. So first was a mattress. Again, we talked about essentia, spent ten grand on their procore, which is a custom made mattress. I would say if you're a side sleeper, it's absolutely the best mattress. We'll talk about pressure points in a minute. But if you're a side sleeper, you need more weight distribution because you're going to have more compression on your shoulders if you're a man. If you're a woman, might be your hips. So one of the ways that you can disrupt your sleep is pressure points. If your shoulder is getting filled with blood and the blood's trapped, your body's going to toss and turn as a way to release the blood flow, and that's happening while you're sleeping, and that will disrupt your deep sleep. So when I realized that, I thought, well, I need a memory foam mattress so that it'll spread the weight out evenly. When I started doing it all the Research on memory foams. Essentia was the one that stuck out to me because again, they're not using materials that off gas for six months. And I love the fact that I could customize each zone so they'll literally look at your body and say, okay, well, you're this height. Your shoulders are this width. And then you can customize your wife's side or your partner's side. And my wife has white hips because she's a Latina. So let's customize that zone for her and both sides feel differently. And it just feels like you're sleeping in a cloud. I think it's amazing. And I know they're coming out with a new mattress. I tried it at your show, which was just phenomenal. So, yeah, I think a great mattress is key. If you're a back sleeper, then the Samina mattress is another viable option. But I'm just a super fan of Essentia and again, not paying me to say this, I'm just a legit super fan.

I've had the CEO of both Samina and Essentia on the show talking about mattresses. Matt, so totally like your recommendations there. And look, if you're not going to replace your mattress, which is okay, you know, that's an expensive, big investment, sometimes there's toppers, there's other things you can do, and that's why there's just a whole set of knowledge. But you're basically saying the surface you sleep on matters greatly. And we could talk a lot about toxins and softness and all things, but you said something that listeners should understand. Side sleep versus back sleep. Give me the pros and cons as you see them, and we'll see if we line up on what we see there.

If you ask any chiropractor what's the best, they will tell you it's a back sleeper. Here's one of the interesting things about your brain, though. Your brain's position will activate or deactivate certain parts of your brain. So for me, if I'm on my back, I'll actually go into a pretty intense theta wave experience. And I can't really hit that next wave. So I like, usually I'll hit my head on the pillow, I'll go on my back, drop down to theta, and then once I feel my brain's in theta, I'll flip over to my side. Because if I just stay on my back, my brain will continue being active. So I think optimal, probably back. But for some of us, it's just not feasible or doable. So, yeah, let's talk about the perfect way to be a side sleeper, which is a bit of a different point. So what you really want is you want from your neck down to your feet to be as aligned as possible. So there's a couple of little tricks you can do to do that. One is, ideally, you've got a really thick blanket or some people use a really thin pillow between your knees so that your hips are not pulling down. And again, you're trying to straighten out your hips as much as possible. I use a really thick weighted blanket which achieves the same effect. And again, in terms of using the memory foam, it'll help if you got the right density, you should have a straight line from your neck down to your sacrum. Now, here's another tip. If you our side sleeper, hug a pillow because your shoulder will start slumping over while you're sleeping. If you can hug a pillow, you're not going to get that weight pulling all night long, which again will help prevent some back. Back problems, shoulder problems, et cetera, et cetera. So those are some good tips for any side sleepers. But what I brought up earlier, Dave, I'm curious what your opinion is. And I was looking at research on brain positions and how it impacts and activates different parts of the brain. And I knew experientially that was true. And the research says that it is. And what I said was, if you're on your back, for me, I go to this theta brainwave state, which is great to get primed for sleep, but I'll tend to just stay there and hang out there. So as soon as I flip on my side, that's when I pass out. But yeah. What's your opinion on sleep positions?

Well, I would say one pillow probably isn't enough if you're a side sleeper because your arm needs to be in a natural position. So putting your arm all the way across because you have one of those thin pillows that they oftentimes have, especially if you have shoulders, isn't going to work. So you actually might consider what I do. I have two pillows and one pillowcase, so it's really firm. That'll hold my arm up if I'm side sleeping. And then same thing, you want to draw a line from your spinal cord through the top of your head. And when your head's on a pillow resting, your head should be straight so you don't have a kink in your spinal cord and block cerebral spinal fluid recirculation. So that usually requires a couple pillows and probably an ERGONOMIC pillow on the top that provides just a little bit more support for your neck so your head rests. And that is all the difference for side sleepers. But I haven't seen research. There may be some. I just haven't seen it about sleep position and whether you're more likely to have a dream or go into deep sleep. But what we do know is if you're a side sleeper, you get a lot more wrinkles on your face because of gravity and because you're smushing your face. So any of the anti aging people we've talked to will tell you sleep on your back, except most people when they sleep on their back. In today's world, we'll snore a lot because we have narrower palates than we should because of a whole bunch of stuff we've covered in detail on this show before. We also have sleep apnea. And your tongue can fall back. So what you want to do is tape your mouth and maybe put in a bite guard that stops your jaw from falling back. So if you can actually go to sleep and stay asleep and you can measure using something like sleep space or anything that detects snores, you can say, all right, how much snoring do you have? If you have five or 10 minutes, it doesn't matter. If you have 45 minutes to an hour, you got a problem. And I used to have tons of snoring. I don't anymore. I can back sleep, but it took me fixing my diet as well as fixing my bite and taping my mouth before I got my snores down. So I would say I would sleep, I would trade off wrinkles, I'd have wrinkles to have a good night's sleep. But it shouldn't be necessary. If you are going to side sleep, you want to sleep on your right side because when your heart is higher, there's less work for it to pump and it seems to work better. And there was actually a study about that that I cited in Probably Superhuman, but actually no, I cited that one in my brain book. I believe in head Strong. And that was the one that talked about changes in all cause, mortality from which side you sleep on. Uh, that's probably what it is. And then you do want the head of your bed to be elevated so your cerebral spinal fluid can more easily circulate. And there's good evidence for, I think, Alzheimer's with that. Uh, and that means that you put blocks under the, the front of your or the head of your bed, but not the foot of your bed. So you're at about a 6 degree incline. So those are kind of the. The tricks there. But I would love to know if there was an association between side sleeping and deep sleep that works for everyone or whether that's just for you. And for you, is one side better than the other to get deep sleep?

If I go on my right side, and that's more of a shoulder issue because my right shoulder is a little jacked, I can't do it, so I have to go my left side. Just a comment on what I was mentioning in terms of head position. I'm not saying correlates to more deep sleep. I'm saying that I have trouble falling asleep if I'm on my back. My brain's just hyperactive.

Oh, you just can't fall asleep. I thought you were talking about the amount of theta, which is typically dreaming. Oh, in that case, it's probably some kind of trauma response where the body doesn't feel safe on its back. And this is entirely unconscious stuff. We all have weird things that our bodies do that are by design entirely invisible. So somehow it figured you couldn't do it. If you look at how animals and cavemen sleep, there's a couple studies of those. They usually sleep on their side, not on their back. It's unnatural to sleep on your back with all of your organs exposed for the tigers to eat. So the aboriginal cultures that they studied. In fact, there was one guy who wrote this great paper. He looked at all of them who still slept. Traditionally, they slept on hard surfaces and maybe a little bit of padding. They always slept with their head slightly elevated if they could. So no one ever goes backpacking and puts your head downhill if you can possibly avoid it. You want to sleep at least sideways to the hill or with your head uphill. And they'd sleep on their side and they'd use their arm. So for about three months years ago, I slept on the floor just on a really thin hard mat. And I didn't use a pillow, which is what they did. And I found I could do it. It took me about six weeks to learn how to do it. My neck still hated it, and I said that was dumb. So I tend to like a very firm mattress, like a firm essentia. And I do use a pillow, but I try the aboriginal stuff, and I think that's our most natural historical thing. So that could just be your. What do you want to call it? Your ancestral knowledge in your nervous system. Just saying there might be a tiger.

Let's talk about the perf. How to pick the right mattress density. You just brought that up. So again, the goal is to minimize and even out the pressure per square inch. So the heavier you are, the more softness you need. The wider you are. If you have wide shoulders if you're a man, or wide hips as a woman, the more softness you need. The shorter you are, the more softness you need. So I'm not surprised you're a tall man that you prefer hardness because again, you've got more surface area to spread out. And if you're a back sleeper, you again can get away on the harder surface. So if you're a side sleeper, you want more softness. If you're heavier, you want more softness. If you're wider, you want more softness. And the opposite is true on the other side. One last comment too, on the pillow. If you are using a mattress and you're a side sleeper and you're sinking in, you tend to want to use a thin pillow. So my pillow going to use a essentia pillow. This is the thinnest one they have because prior to that, when I was using normal mattresses, I needed a thicker pillow. But now, because I'm sinking in so much, if I use a thicker pillow, it's going to tilt my neck.

Awesome. There's a whole thing around alignment of your spine. If I sleep on a typical hotel soft mattress, and some hotels have them now, usually they've been pretty firm, I get back pain that lasts for a long time and there's just not enough support there. There's also the glymphatic circulation system in the body that pumps your lymph, but also pumps your cerebral spinal fluid. If you're on a hard surface and you breathe, you're probably getting more movement of lymph tissue just through the the breathing and relaxing than if you're on a super soft surface. But that's getting kind of out there. So bottom line is you want to find the mattress that makes you sleep really well and sleep on that one. But there's some directional clues about which one that's likely to be based on what you just said.

So, yeah. So the next major investment I made, and they actually rarely talk about this for sleep, but is the Nano V, which is about $15,000. So here's how you use the Nano V for sleep. You run it for about 90 minutes before bed. And what I found, and I've recommended this to a lot of nanov users, and they pretty much all said the same thing, around 75 to 90 minutes, your nervous system really shifts over. And one of the ways to just get better sleep is to shift your nervous system from sympathetic to parasympathetic, right from fight, flight, freeze to relax, calm, healing. And the nanov is very effective if you run it that long. Like, I know typically a session's 20, 30 minutes, which is great, does all kinds of good things, but that nervous system shift is pretty profound. Again at that 75, 90 minute mark. The cool thing is you can run it while you're sitting on the couch chilling, playing with your kids, doing whatever. So it's kind of one of those hacks you can use and live life. But I would say that anything that shifts your nervous system is a very, very good thing. Again, shifting over to parasympathetic. So I was ten grand, I use this oxygen ionization machine from Australia called Elanra, something that not a lot of biohackers know about. And it's a really powerful machine. Now, again, this is not an oxygen machine. If you use an ORP meter. And ORP meters means that it's an oxidative reduction potential meter. And what it does, it means.