Ex-Dominatrix: Use These Erotic Secrets To Dominate Your Life! | Kasia Urbaniak

I can talk from my head. I can talk from my heart. I can talk from my pussy.

Wow, look at that. When you talk from your pussy, it hits you. Hits me right here. I'm like, I can feel that these.

Celibate nuns have more pussy power than all of the sex workers.

How does one relax into anger?

You eroticize it.

All right, you be the dom.

That's nice.

You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey. This is an episode that I have wanted to do for about three years with a very elusive guest. In fact, she's almost impossible to track down. And she's the author of, and I'm not joking about this, the number one most important book for women that I've ever read. And I've recommended her book to at least a thousand women, especially entrepreneurs, women working on personal development, working on understanding the differences between female power and male power, which are different things. And God, so many of my employees have read her book. And I've also recommended it for men who are saying, I don't understand what's going on with my partner, assuming their partner is a woman. And the book is called A Woman's Guide to Power. And you might say, okay, what's so special about this book? Well, the author of the book who's sitting here at the studio in Austin, Texas, live with me today. She spent more than a decade studying Taoism, and she studied it at China's oldest female led monastery and with other experts in the field. But that's expensive. So she asked herself, how can I pay to basically become the equivalent of a nun? Well, the obvious answer is by being a professional dominatrix. I mean, why not, right? So there is no other person on the planet with this kind of experience. And what it comes down to is it's the study of inner power and outer power and understanding power dynamics. And the book, it's a little bit spicy in the first chapter, but it's literally a map to the voices in your head and why there are traps. It is absolutely brilliant. As I said, the book is called Unbound and the author's name is Kasia Urbaneik. Kasia, it's an honor to finally get you on the podcast.

Thank you. Pronunciation.

Did I say something wrong?

Kasha Urbaniak.

Oh, my gosh. Does that mean I get a spanking?

I'm just kidding. It means you get three words.

All this time. Urbaniac.

Urbaniac.

Urbaniac. Like maniac.

Like maniac.

All this time I've been saying it wrong. At least I say Kasha, right? Kasha Urbaniac.

That's right.

All right, guys. Remember that. So the way we connected is I've been reaching out via various channels, and, well, there's a lot of people reaching out to you. We'll put it that way. And no answer. And then one day, I get a DM on Instagram saying, hey, this crazy person is trying to pretend like they're your podcast producer and trying to schedule an appointment for me. And I know it's a scam. I'm like, no, that's not a scam. Here's my number. We should talk. And you were kind enough to call me and like, oh, my gosh, it was real. And then it finally happened.

I'm so happy to be here.

Yeah. And what worked even better is you were saying, I might be in Austin. Are you available? I said, no, I'm going to the We Deepen Love Mastermind. And, like, can I come? And this is something that my girlfriend runs. And so it was amazing. We got to know each other a little bit better over the last couple days of just deep work, and now we get to do a podcast.

It was fantastic.

Which came first, the dom or the nun?

You know, the funny thing is, I thought I was working as a domme for money, so I'd say the nun came first.

Oh.

But as I deepened that discipline and saw what I saw, I realized that even my desire, maybe, like childish, whimsical desire to become a superhuman and acquire all these magical powers came from a desire for power. It was just hidden in me. So I would say they probably coexisted, and the way in which they informed each other was the thing that actually probably determined the trajectory of my life.

Okay. Do you have an unusual desire for power, or is this something everyone has?

I'm convinced it's something everyone has, but I don't know that I can't prove that. I feel like it is part of the human condition, and it is part of how we're built. And that because most things that are made covert or taboo become dangerous. And I think that is a prime example. How money is used, how sex is used, and power, those are so important to bring out into the light.

One of my favorite books is called Power, Sex, and Suicide, and it's a book about mitochondrial biology.

Wow.

It has nothing to do with what you think. And I've come to the understanding that a lot of our unconscious desires are driven inside ourselves by the same things that all life ultimately looks for. And power is another word for energy.

Yeah. And that's very Taoist too.

Yeah. It's the currency of life, of energy. So it's no wonder that all humans, when we take away shame and guilt, of course I want power. And it's funny. What's the definition of biohacking? Let's see. Change the environment around you and inside of you so you have full control of your own biology. Control's another word for power over, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And why did biohacking take off? Because we all want it. Even if we might feel guilty about power.

I think people have a really bad idea about power because they see power when it's not working. They see power dynamics when they've collapsed, not when they're actually functioning. Every human being should, should want to thrive and have the resources they need to grow. And there's no ceiling to that growth. And power is energy, it's vitality, it's the resources you need to expand. That's like part of human evolution. It's self love in action.

Why do you think so many people, men and women, are scared to say they want power?

Because most of the time what we see is power dynamics collapsed. Most of the time we associate things are when a power dynamic is working in perfect harmony. We don't call it a power dynamic, we call it connection, we call it conversation, we call it synergy, we call it lots of things. We have lots of names for it. We call it power when it's not working. So we're pointing to the right direction, but at the wrong moment.

So we notice a lack of power versus noticing power.

Yes. It's like you don't notice the lights are out until the lights are out. You're like, we have a power problem.

And if they're slowly dimming, you won't see it until they're pretty darn out. And that's what happens in mitochondria. Running at 70% of your potential capacity, you'll never know it. And if you're running at 30%, you won't know it. And when you get to somewhere around 15, I feel like crap all the time and I don't have any energy. And that's usually when people get a wake up call to say, I better do something about my health. But you're pretty far down and no one knows how bright the lights can go, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A really course extreme example of how we associate power when power is actually not working is the autocrat, the tyrant. So like a dictator takes over, a country has to use an excessive amount of force. And the military to keep the people down.

Like Trudeau. Sorry, keep going.

What happens is, over time, the people rebel, there's a revolution or a coup, and then who comes back to the top is a replica of that. Right. Usually so incredibly inefficient. You call it power, but it's actually powerlessness. It's a waste of power. That is so much force to keep one thing going one way. It doesn't use the talents of the people. There's no innovation. There's no ingenuity, there's no art. There's no. There's so many things that fail because the actual resources available in those human beings, the energy, the power of the collective, isn't being topped. So we're like, oh, that's like an excessive abuse of power. And I think we have our concepts and our language about it is a little bit wonky because that is an incredibly inefficient expression and waste of power. It's like hemorrhaging.

Did you have to learn Chinese in order to study?

A little bit.

A little bit. Are there different words for power when you're studying Taoism?

You know, actually, my Mandarin's probably too weak for that. I think, though, there that the. In every language I speak, power and love have the same problem.

What is it?

It's. They're vague, blanket statements around a whole area. They're not specific enough. And there could be, you know, so much more detail and nuance. It would be helpful.

Eskimos have something like 35 words for snow.

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Is there a language that you know of that has the most words for love or power?

No. I don't know. I don't know.

I kind of want to ask ChatGPT, like, what language has the most words, but it would be interesting because whatever language that is probably a culture that has studied these and gone deeper on them. And language really structures society in a big way, even structures how your brain is built. Wow.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What is the most surprising thing you learned at the Chinese monastery setting Taoism?

Well, I think that there's an overall surprise that happened, and it had to do with the confluence between the two things I was doing. Cause I was going to study all of the magical practices I could find I really did have. It wasn't even spiritual for me. I was like, I want Hogwarts in real life, I'm gonna find the people who levitate, not the people.

We have some commonality. I respect that.

So I'd have these really intense, concentrated periods of study, and I'D be, you know, reading the body, looking at the organs, like learning to read energy. And then I'd be doing these marathon sessions in a BDSM in a New York dungeon. And I would be, after looking at, you know, volunteer patient after patient after patient, that I would be looking at a man on his knees. And it became really inevitable that there was just this moment where there's two things sort of clicked and everything became 3D. And I started seeing that in this game of power. This is fake, right? I'm doing it. I'm doing it because I don't want to. I don't want to. I have to. And I'm pretending to be powerful and I'm acting. I started realizing that I'm looking at a human body that has emotion, emotion that I've started to understand how to perceive visually the movements of energy and that something beautiful and new was possible. If I actually committed to being in authority, if I committed to holding this man energetically and naming what I saw. And you know, you know, I'm using a fake name, we're using a fake scenario. The words don't matter. But the direction of energy started to really matter. All of the sudden, this human being started to open up in front of me. And I started realizing that what I had been hearing about men and women and about power was not only wrong, but what I was seeing was so simple and so human and so beautiful. And the ability to. To step into a position of authority in order to put my attention on someone in a way that had them unfold in front of my eyes and their secrets reveale like, as a function of attention, as a function of nature was such a gift. And then I started understanding the gift I was giving if I allowed myself to surrender in the presence of one who was interested in holding me that way. And then the definition, the whole idea of power became so much more generous and generative because it no longer became. I started seeing. I mean, I gave you that dictator example because it became so clear that there is true power that has synergy, that is generative. When the person in the position of authority is paying attention to see how their authority is landing, how that attention is working, how it's impacting that person. Words aren't even necessary because you can see what's happening to that person and calibrate accordingly. And then a dance happens that is so much more powerful than a set of rules, that an agenda that. A fake name or a title or a status position, and that in that sense, the person who's Leading is functionally the giver, and the people being led are functionally the receivers. And then when I went out into the world and started looking, I realized human. Humans need both. And we're sort of in this weird place where status and roles and hierarchies and people pretend they don't exist or they do them badly. And that it really is a lot more like in a. In a dance scenario. You want someone who's leading and you want someone who's following. And you can agree to switch. You can organically switch. But if everybody's trying to be themselves or lead or surrender all at the same time, it doesn't work. You have victims, you have collapsed Power day, right? So people who are complaining, you have people who are trying to force each other's behavior without actually looking at the impact of what they're saying or doing. It ends up being chaos and wasteful and not effective at all.

This notion of power and waste, it's so important at every level of what we do, whether it's what you choose to eat, is how you choose to sleep, and even how you set up society. And everyone knows when a person with genuine power, when they walk in the room, you can feel their presence. They don't have to say anything. As you were saying, what is it that gives that person that kind of power? Versus I have an army behind me.

That is the kind that makes the animal of everyone's body feel safe to offer their genuine resources, their intelligence, their caring, their devotion, their creativity, their. Their. Their labor. Right. Like a person who. So animal kingdom examples can go wonky because there's always a biologist who's just like, actually, wolves are at the front of the pack, not at the back of the pack, or vice versa. But generally, when you look at animals that are, like, in, you see that their attention's out on the group generally. Generally. And the ones that are under their care, their attention tends to be on whether they are being compliant or how they're being right. So inward and outward, inward and outward. A person with presence, that kind of authoritative presence is usually one that's practiced in the art of expanding their field of attention and holding everybody and calibrating accordingly. So if somebody's practicing that and they enter a room, you feel it, and you're able to shift into a slightly more surrendered position. Relax. People like that. It feels good. People also, there's also great power to the person who knows how to surrender well, because when they don't know how to surrender well, there's like an Uptight, nervous, guarded defensiveness. It's really, really, really beautiful. The feeling is really beautiful. To be able to give. Who knows how to receive well, who knows how to take things in, who knows how to savor things. And that's the surrendered position. It's beautiful. And I feel like those two streams, those two ways of sharing attention are really powerful. If we understood them better, we'd have much less conflict.

So it's sort of like dancing. It's exactly dancing with someone who really knows what they're doing. If you're leading, then they're going to just effortlessly follow. And it's beautiful. But if they resist because they don't know how to do it. So it sounds like people would benefit from learning how to hold power, this authentic, calm, peaceful power. That means watching everything around and being peaceful. You do it. And from learning how to surrender, not in a I give up surrender, but just in a okay, like I'm calm, I'm peaceful, and like, you lead. How does one learn either one of those skills?

Yeah. So, okay, so one of the caveats is being able to be embodied is a primary requirement for this.

What is being embodied?

Right, right, right. People talk about is in your body that you're going to feel if you're on or off or if you're on the spot or putting someone on the spot.

So somatic work.

No, I'm going to take a stand. Yes, yes. But I'm going to take a step back because I think on a larger scale, what's happening is that we're coming from a long history of believing that our body is a problem. So I'm going to give you an example. In the Catholic faith, we have the seven deadly sins.

Mm.

So it's like greed, lust, gluttony, envy, pride, sloth.

Those are all mitochondrial behaviors, by the way.

Oh, I have to hear about this.

Keep going.

If you are embodied, if you are in touch with your body, if you are aware of what's happening in your body, if you can feel your body, all of those self regulate. So gluttony self regulates. If you greed. Right. If you feel, if you are in a state of excessive greed, you're also disembodied because you're not feeling satisfaction. You're not actually receiving the experience of getting more. So we come from a long tradition, especially in Western culture, of being like, there's a problem with my body. I can't trust it. It's going to destroy everything. So first thing is getting over that and maybe entertaining the idea that what comes up inside has a use. If it's uncomfortable, it's just not given its proper role yet. Embodiment is really important because it's where the information is landing about what's going on in others, in yourself.

So if I was dysregulated neurologically right now, where would you feel in your body?

I don't know. Can you just regulate yourself?

Yeah. You feel that?

Yeah, I feel it here and here.

Okay, that doesn't feel great. Let me re regulate.

That's so cool. You have, like, a lever, like a switch.

Yeah. All right, I have to re regulate a little bit more.

There.

Do I look regulated now?

Yeah, but actually, I'm gonna. Let's just play a quick game. I'm gonna take your energy in so you'll be the dom just for a second.

Okay.

Actually, that's calming me down.

Yeah, I saw your eyes shift. That was pretty cool. Yeah, I was doing a peaceful thing.

That's nice.

All right, you be the dom.

There you go. That's beautiful.

Now, that was relaxing. Now, if you're watching this on YouTube, we'll cut in so you can see each of our faces and all that stuff. There are subtle shifts, and if you look at Kasha's eyes during both of those, or you look at mine, you'll see that there's a real subtle shift. But most of it was felt. Not.

Yeah, but you know your stuff. Because your eyes went soft and peripheral. Like, your pupils may have dilated. I'm not sure. That moment, we're both like, oh, yeah.

And these are not skills that I knew when I was young. In fact, I would have said everything below the neck. Unless it's bones are sticking out or something. Just ignore it. Like, I've had constant body pain, arthritis in my knees, GI stuff. Like, all the horrible back pain all the time. It was only when I was about 30 that I'm like, oh, God, there's a signal in there. I'm gonna have to sort all this out. And so you could say I've spent 20 something years becoming embodied, if that's the right word for it. And a lot of it I did with technology just to, like, well, let me see what's actually going on in that muscle in my leg. And, oh, look, I never have fired that muscle. I guess now that I can see I'm not firing it. I can wiggle around in my br. Until I learn how to connect that thing. I never connected when I was a little kid. And so I kind of went through the body and the mind and the heart, and did a lot of maybe fast path stuff just to be able to say, I want to be connected to it. And then I've done a lot of esoteric study like you, probably not to the same extent, but in multiple lineages, which is why I can shift my state away and so can you. And it's actually really beautiful. So if you're listening to this going, what the hell are these guys talking about? There's a word, it's my favorite word in the English language. It's called ineffable. It means there isn't a word for it. And everything I do, even at 40 years of Zen, with neuroscience, I would just tell you what to do. But in thousands of years of study, like, well, imagine the Buddha sitting in this pose, and there's all these things, and they're trying to use words to tell you a state that isn't a word. And I just find the fastest. Make the light turn green, make the bell ring, and then you've found the state.

Yeah.

What's the fastest way that you know to teach people this state?

Hmm. Well, I find that one of the things that is an obstacle in terms of embodiment is emotion. So people check out of their bodies when they feel an uncomfortable emotion. However, uncomfortable emotions are a really wonderful way to start learning about energy because different emotions have patterns of movement.

Oh, do tell.

So anger moves upward. You can tell because your face gets hot. And if you're really angry and you're trying to take action or you're fighting with somebody, you're all eyes and forehead. It's all up here.

Okay.

That is one stage of anger. We can call it the uncooked state. Right. There's the emotions that we consider positive are sort of, like, ready to be consumed. And the ones that we consider to be negative need some cooking. They need some alchemy. When you feel anger, it rises. When you feel sadness, it sinks. It's downward. It's pretty universal. Your tears move downward, your chest heaves, it's downward, Right. Fear moves inward in all directions so much that your butthole, butthole, even goes up. You go, right? The beautiful thing is sadness is a wonderful way to hit your ride into the submissive surrendered state, because it's already moving inward. And if you follow it without hesitation, it'll take you to your most tender needs and desires, the needs that you wouldn't even have admitted to yourself. And it ends up being this beautiful, kind of like, romantic nostalgic lake at the bottom of your being. Full of knowledge, full of self knowledge, anger, moving upward and outward, wants to go out into the world. It's not cooked, should not go out into the world in its state. But it will definitely, once it's approved of, lead you to a state where you know what's worth fighting for and is the clearest way to find out what your passion and your purpose is. You just have to switch from what you're fighting against to what you're fighting for. And that's really hard for people to do. I don't know why, but it is. And it leaves us in this in between state. So, like in stage one, in like the most hidden anger state, I find that my female students are. They don't even identify stage one as anger. They're just lost, tired, don't have a sense of purpose. Then stage two, when that anger starts waking up, it's chaotic, it's unusable. It's the state where it's kind of unbearable and dangerous to others. And so the moment that she realizes that, she shuts back down into stage.

One, because anger is dangerous and no one wants other people.

And then a lot of people spend time just going back and forth between stage one, stage two, and stage two. Apathy.

Anger. Apathy, Anger.

Yeah. And stage three is where you have clarity of purpose, you have passion, you're not mad at anyone anymore. You are just all that energy. It was designed for your purpose. It's getting used for your purpose. And all of the emotions I found have those three stages. They have physical movement and they have three stages. So if some, if I have a woman who's really having trouble accessing a dominant state where she puts her attention on others and holds it, I work with anger because it just. It's already going to want to come up. And I'll often find that she stops herself at a particular point. She won't go all the way. So we work on that from what she's fighting against to what she's fighting for. And other. And also women who won't surrender, who get stuck oftentimes the key is to allow them sadness, sustained sadness, because many get uncomfortable with both. So they pivot between the two. Anger and then sadness. I'm hurt. Then I'm mad that someone hurt me.

When I'm teaching this similar stuff at 40 years of Zen with the neurofeedback, if someone's stuck in apathy, like it's the lowest level, and once they get past it, they're going to have some anger. And like, boy, there's sadness hiding my anger. Or is it anger hiding the sadness? Which one do you think comes first? Or how does it work between those two?

In what order will they put. I have not put them on a scale in terms of. And part of that is just because of my Taoist Chinese medical orientation. So there'll be their organ correspondences. Anxiety and worry and sadness, fear, anger. The primary ones. And many of them are offshoots. All the rest are sort of offshoots of those. I don't have an order, but I will say that it is really important to stay with one and relax into one for as long as possible.

How does one relax into anger?

Oh, you eroticize it. You enjoy. I mean, that is really the secret. You either find something adorable or you find it sexy. Because. Okay, this is to be done just to be clear. Very big difference between trying to influence others and working with yourself. So with yourself. It is incredibly positive to approve of every, but not just approve of every emotion in terms of. I accept its existence, but find the heat in it, find the life force in it. Find the erotic in it. It's that that will give you the most empowering idea and sense of why, what it's for and what it's good for, what you can use it for.

So if you're really angry, you should angrily masturbate?

Yes. No, it's like. It's like I'm so. You know, really. Sometimes we get mad at stupid things. I'm so mad that they didn't tell me that they were having a party and I wasn't invited or something really dumb, right? Oh, my God. I think it's so hot that I'm getting so mad that I just. I want everybody to want to invite me all the time. I really advocate. I really care about. There's love in everything.

What the fuck are you doing? Like, when you said that I got turned on. Like you did something with your voice or your, like. Yeah, that was. That was crazy powerful.

So then, I mean, this is a fake example, but I would be getting to the bottom of what the use of this is.

Were you acting or literally transmitting when you did that?

What's the difference?

Okay, so you're a method actor, huh?

We all are.

Okay?

I mean, even our, you know, look at the world right now. Most of the people who have really, really hardcore ideological positions. And I don't want to piss anyone off because you believe what you believe for a reason. And there are, you know, there is ext. Reality that has impact. But, like, most of us are Riding an ideology hard based on unacknowledged emotions.

Yes, indeed.

And so we think we have all these ideas about who we are and what we're doing here and we're wrong. Nobody knows what we're doing here. Like we're all method acting our personalities, you know?

Don't you think like the hidden books in the back of the monastery have some knowledge about what we're really doing here?

I. I think the idea that there is. There is an answer you can put in a book is extremely exciting. But I think the answer is probably right in front of our eyes. We're just designed to not be able to see it until we see it.

I've been to monasteries where there is a locked part of the library and you're not allowed to go in there because reading those books has a great chance of making you go insane.

Go insane. Yeah, yeah.

Have you read those books?

No. No, I don't. I don't know.

I want to.

I cannot speak to the existence of said l. I know it exists.

I just don't know what it is. It's probably all in the Vatican archives anyway.

Yeah, I mean, I mean, I don't think. Ineffable.

There you go.

You know, it's in the things we know that we can't explain. And it's in those moments where, you know, even just looking at you right now, there are just moments where I forget what I'm doing and like I'm me, I'm you, and I'm our conversation.

Yeah.

And that's. I mean, the fact that we don't wake up every morning just freaking out over the miracle of our cells dividing. Like, what is this place? It's just awe on steroids. And I think if we were a little bit better about realizing how good we have it.

Wow. The role of gratitude and awe.

Yeah.

I have found, in fact, my next book called Heavily Meditated. I write about the process that we use at 40 years of Zen to create this wr. Rapid healing transformation. And I found that it's almost impossible to deeply let something go without experiencing gratitude or awe. Ideally, both those seem like they're the thing that unlock the door so that you can really step into it. What is the role of gratitude and awe in your training?

Yeah, I'm going to say something controversial and mind you, because I primarily teach women. A lot of my. A lot of my work is skewed to correct for the way women are raised.

I love this about your wife.

So I am against gratitude and I'll tell you why? If you watch a woman. If you tell a woman. Tell me what you're grateful for, watch her body. Her body contracts. She gets a smile on her face, and she starts shooting all this energy out of her eyes and face like she's paying back for what she doesn't deserve. I'm so grateful for. Oh, I should be grateful. I'm so grateful.

That's not gratitude.

So we do something else. We talk about having what you have, but fully having. Fully receiving what you already have. I deeply receive. I deeply have this moment here with Dave, who is brilliant. I deeply, deeply receive this moment where all these lights are shining on me and I'm in Texas for the first time, and I just had such a marvelous weekend. I so deeply, deeply have what I have. Received what I have. And it's different. It's different in posture. It's different in energy. It's different in state. And it makes me expand the taboo around that is. Like, I might look like I'm full of myself, right? But we were playing with that edge here so that I don't make myself small in the presence of how lucky I am. Like, it's a fluke. This is paradise, man. It's not a sin to partake of what we were given. Our beauty, our greatness, our joy. Joy.

Why do women in particular have a hard time with gratitude and receiving and being as big as they can be?

I think it's just history, really. Like, we're just getting. I mean, you know, I think we're just getting used to not being property. You know, I. It's. It's just a long, long history of. Of, you know, am I. Am I marketable enough a product to be marriageable and picked by the person who will ensure my safety and my. My life and my children's lives? And. And it's. It's a little. We. An awkward position now because we're in a shift, and it's not very graceful. It's just like, is it okay that I'm here? Oh, wait, I should be proud of myself. It's neither here nor there. And the inside of those roles, it gets a little tricky. Also. One of the greatest lessons I learned, which was shocker, was the role of the erotic in Taoism and how that impacted how I saw women. Women. One of the most profound Taoist teachers I had for a short while, but she was a sect of celibate nuns. First time I saw this woman, small woman, I thought I was gonna fall over. The air would bend around her. And when you look when in her presence, you get this sense that her body is the top 8 or 10% of what you're actually actually seeing. 90% of it is underground. And that if you were like, tip her over, the whole planet would have to go with it.

Wow.

And my mind was searching for, like, how is this possible? How is this working? What am I seeing here? I'm seeing something. I'm witnessing something, I'm feeling something, and I'm trying to make sense of it. When I learned that these nuns do erotic practices every day, even though they're celibate to circulate their sexual energy, I thought that might be a clue. But after, I think it was like two weeks of really intense training with them, I returned back to the States. And the first thing that became so obvious and apparent to me was that every woman I saw looked like she was wearing an imaginary corset. Her breathing was so high, her voice, everything was up here, so easy to tip over. And then I realized the whole pelvic, erotic, energetic, center tight. And if it was. If it was like open, still not rooted at all, and opening mine, even though I was like a liberated sex worker, was just the release of so much shame. Not even mine. I almost feel like it's like ancestral lineage. And I feel like when I work with women, women, I always add the erotic because in it, it, like, lubricates the power. It roots it without. Without it, power is not authentic. It's performative. I mean, you know, you probably know a lot of things scientifically about why having access to your enteric nervous system makes sense from a martial arts perspective. Center of gravity, balance, how your brain operates when you're. When your whole body is at, you know, in a different nervous system state. But all I was thinking was, you know, these celibate nuns have more pussy power than all of the sex workers I know. Like, what's up with that? It changed my voice. It changed the. The. The, you know, the presence and the bearing of the women I with and in the dungeon. It changed the way that I started training other dominatrixes once I got to that position.

About your voice, I will say, having recommended your book a thousand plus times, every person I know who gets your audiobook, they're like, I don't know what it is about her voice. And I've got several female friends who said, I actually have masturbated to her voice in the book. What did you do to make your voice this way?

One of the things that you learn in a daoist Monastery is sound healing and learning how to speak from different centers in your body and learning how to aim for different organs. Normally you're just starting with the healing sounds. They're like vowels almost. But once you start playing with that and you start realizing, oh, wow, I can talk from my head, I can talk from my heart, I can talk from my pussy.

Wow, look at that.

It changes how things feel. And when you were asking me the.

Method asking question, like when you talk from your pussy, it hits you. At least it hits me right here. I'm like, I can feel that. Wow, that's a power.

It's so.

I'm sweating. What is up with that?

It's so much fun. It's so delightful. And also, even though I'm conscious of it, when people are congruent, they're really feeling what they're saying. They do the same thing. They speak from their heart or they speak from their pussy or their lower centers. A lot of people are speaking from their head. And listening to someone speak from their head is only pleasurable if you already agree with everything they say. Whoa.

Say that one more time.

If someone's speaking from their head said, it's only pleasurable to you if you already agree with everything they say.

Wow.

And the problem with that is, if you already agree with everything they say, there isn't a lot of value in listening to them. However, if they're speaking from their heart, you don't need to agree with them because you're getting two streams of information. You're getting their heart and you're getting their ideas. And you can start understanding who they are a little bit better, why they believe what they believe just on an intuitive level. And if they're speaking from their power centers, their pussy, their cock, their belly, it has a presence and a force and a staying power to it so that you can feel what it's like to be them. So it gives people who have very little access to empathy, it gives them an education and empathy and people who are already empathetic, it gives them the whole damn book.

Wow.

And one of the most beautiful things about watching people's energy and feeling this way and interacting this way, I mean, you're so much fun because you're a total empath. So, like, the amount of conversation that's happening between our bodies anytime we we're talking is phenomenal, right?

Yeah.

Humans are an open book, and this is an open book test. Like, if you're paying attention, you can see everything you need to know about another person and the opportunities There are so rich. We're just so afraid of like hearing no or disagreeing that we, we look at each other like that with our, you know, through closed. How do you say this for, you know, through your fingers?

Through a filter?

Yeah, yeah, through a filter. Through a self protective kind of like ah.

Electrolytes are tiny charged minerals that your body needs to stay healthy. They help electricity move between cells in your body, they keep your body hydrated and they support your energy levels. That means that you need electrolytes so your heart can beat, your muscles can work, and you can have a brain with balanced moods. The main electrolytes you've probably heard of are sodium, potassium and magnesium. They're also minerals. In order to perform at your best, I Recommend you get 4 to 6 or even more grams of sodium per day, 3.5 to 5 grams of potassium, and at least 600 milligrams of magnesium each day. When you take those minerals in the right amount, it keeps water in your body and it supports how cells talk to each other. I know because I track my cell hydration every single day when I'm at upgrade labs. Using advanced medical technology, you can see what happens to your hydration when you have enough electrolytes. You'll find a few of these minerals in things like fruits and vegetables and meat and nuts. But your best bet is to just use an electrolyte drink like element to fill those gaps and make sure you get enough electrolytes. It's gonna boost your energy, it's gonna improve your sleep, and it'll improve your mood. In fact, try it before a workout and you won't believe how effective electrolytes are. Find an element flavor you like, like citrus salt or raspberry salt and try the new element sparkling electrolyte water. It is a very low cost way to radically increase your performance physically and mentally. Go to drinkelement.com Dave to get a free sample pack with any drink mix purchase. That's drinklmnt.com Dave did you know that you can use Zebiotics pre alcohol Probiotic to enjoy an occasional night out without feeling wrecked the next day. Zebiotic is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic designed to prevent rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol turns into a toxic byproduct in your gut. And that's a major part of what makes you feel awful the next day. It's not just dehydration. Zebiotics, which is created by PhD scientists, specifically makes an enzyme that breaks down alcohol's toxic byproduct. So you wake up the next day ready to crush it instead of really just wanting to go back to sleep. For best results, you make zebiotics, your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you'll feel much better tomorrow. If I am hosting a party with alcohol, I always put zebiotic out for guests because, well, I'm a good host. Go to zbiotics.com dave and use code Dave when you check out. They'll give you 15 off your first order disorder. This stuff really works. I don't think alcohol is something you want to do a lot, but when you do it, you might as well not pay the price. One of the things I've learned is that I would call it your mitochondrial distributed consciousness. Others might call it your ego. It has the ability to stop you from seeing things.

Can you say that one more time just for my benefit? Your mitochondrial.

Your mitochondrial distributed intelligence.

Okay.

Your mitochondria are. They have their own intelligence, their own consciousness that's not yours. And they're in charge of keeping your meat alive. And they are a distributed quantum system that also uses light and chemicals to communicate with each other and probably electricity and magnetism too, we think. So. They have their own stuff, and their job is to take an infinitely complex universe and dumb it down to hand it to your brain.

Wow.

And they have a third of a second to do this. So even when I'm speaking right now, the sound reaches you, and a third of a second after it reaches you, your auditory cortex lights up, and your mitochondria are sitting in there going, should I let her hear this or not?

Wow.

And the same with your visual.

Are you telling me there's a scientific location for ego?

I believe based on all of my 25 years of looking at this, yes. The ego is an emergent behavior from mitochondria.

Wow.

And if you look at what mitochondria do, they're basic processes of life. It's fear comes first, so nothing eats you. Right. And then eat everything so you don't have a famine. And then fuck everything else because you got to have more bacteria out there. And this works for trees and all life, complex or not. And then after that is friend, which is support your community, but only if the first three are handled. And after that, at least for humans, it's forgiveness, but for all life, it's evil. Evolve, like, to transform.

Wow.

And this describes every single one of the seven deadly sins. It describes the Buddhist hindrances. It describes all of the dark Stuff.

Oh, yeah.

But we think we're that network. And that's where a lot of the shame comes from. Like, oh, my body wants all sorts of really kind of stupid stuff, you know, that would.

That what I'm saying and what you're saying together would redefine embodiment as being able to feel your body enough to be able to not be attached to what it's saying.

I think that enlightenment is actually just having full awareness of all of the sensors in your body. And the sensors in the body are 100% mitochondrial. At the very front edge, all the nerves powered by mitochondria, they're the thing. There may be some other subcellular components that matter, but this idea that a single cell has a consciousness and that when you have trillions of them all voting with each other and then letting you see some things and other things, that's why your body can say, I'm not going to hear what he said. I'm going to subtly change it because what he said was too scary. And you will swear in court with a lie detector that the person said this and they didn't. But it's what you perceived because your mitochondria that was too scary. Right. Or I was in lust. So he said yes, even though he didn't really say yes. And so this awareness of the fact that this is running all the time and. And is actively trying to deceive you is for me, it's been the thing that's been most liberating and it aligns with so many of the different spiritual disciplines I know of. And again, I don't have science to prove that ego is a distributed phenomena. It just is the only solution that fits all the things.

I know I have something a little off the wall I want to share.

Yeah, please do.

Just when you said they decide what you get to see and what you don't. In the magical training path that I underwent, so much of it was remembering that I had witnessed a physics defining miracle. So, like really, really, really simple example. The first one was I was in charge of a branch of one of the monasteries in America just to take care of it while everybody was on a mission in Burma. And my job was to refill these cups with water and meditate in front of them. And when I did one day I was sitting in front of them and those cups bubbled.

Wow.

And then I heard water in the pipes and I went. That was just water in the pipes. And my mind erased it. And the only reason I know that happened is a Week later, I was meditating in front of the cups. The water bubbled, and not only did I have that experience, I had deja vu. And then I was like, oh, that wasn't deja vu. That attachment to the way things are in physical reality started to kind of.

Wow, that's advanced magic stuff. There's a place, a cave in India, where there's handprints on the wall, where Milarepa just realized he could put his hand on the rock and make a handprint just by understanding the nature of reality. And we're both interested in superhuman kind of magical stuff.

Were you like this as a kid? Were you into superheroes or myths or just in the idea that there was more?

No. I had Asperger's and oppositional defiant disorder and ocd, and I was mostly pretty angry, and I just thought everything was so incredibly stupid.

So it came from desperation, not inspiration.

It came from desperation. Yeah. And I'm not at that point now. I do believe there's a lot of things where. Why did we set it up that way? Because it's so incredibly wasteful and it creates human suffering for no reason. It's done out of unconsciousness.

Yeah.

And part of creating biohacking is, well, let's turn up the power in people. Because when you have more power, you can have more awareness.

Yeah, right. Yeah. 100%. 100%. I want so much for people. I mean, I want so much for myself, but I want so much for humanity. I want so much, like, we could have it so good.

Oh, yeah. You seem really optimistic. Are you?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

So am I. I think optimism is sanity. Wow. Because people who are like, pessimism is more realistic don't realize that we are making this as we go along.

Yeah. A lot of the dark stuff, it's done out of unconsciousness. But is there such a thing as evil?

I don't know. But I know that most of the things that people consider bad are absolutely not bad at all. They just need their rightful place. If we were really smart, we'd even give serial killers the rightful role in society. There's a use for everything.

I think one of the things you do with serial killers.

That's a good question. I know there's a use for them. There's a use for everything.

I mean, I kind of like the idea of taking the sociopaths and serial killers and putting them all in a big pit and selling pay per view for that. I'd be okay with that.

There's probably a series of experiments that we could Conduct that would both make a better reality TV show but also give us more wisdom and knowledge.

There actually is huge wisdom from. You believe in evolution? Yes. I don't think straight up evil, you can't have good without evil. Like they're polarities.

I think because I do so much work with shame and how people really hurt each other when they think there's something wrong here, that one of the most empowering positions to take in any situation to go is to go, what is right about this right now? And how can we use this? Like this whole idea of something being wrong, amputating it, cutting it off, getting rid of it, even though even our own sometimes we want to like get rid of an illness. We want to get rid of the problem. We want to. It. It is, it's wasteful, but also it lacks imagination because so often. Okay, can't give you a serial killer example, but really, really silly example. A friend of mine, substitute teacher, had a trick for how to deal with the bad kid. He'd go into a classroom and he'd identify the kid that was causing the most problems.

That would have been me.

And he would give them the most important role and responsibility. Usually it was something like taking attendance and bringing it down to the principal' office. Kid would transform like this. He'd have total control over the classroom for the rest of the hour.

And this is because the kid probably had shame and self doubt and all of that which was causing them to be bad.

The kid had energy that was always being used to disrupt. Now it got used in a different way. So that disruptive energy was used in an authoritative way or in like a service. And any power unused will turn against you. You know the saying, a God ignored is a demon born.

Ooh, that's a great quote.

So when you ask me, is evil real? I'm like, I don't know. Is it a demon that was meant to be a God?

Are demons real?

Okay, so that's a different conversation because you're also talking to a trained exorcist.

I know. I think that was a yes.

But I think, yeah, but I think that those things can be distracting. A lot of my training happened when I was much younger and I didn't know what I know now. Now I feel like the most beautiful things, the most magical things are actually quite simple. The most powerful things are quite simple. And a lot of the really fun at first. Esoteric, magical, metaphysical things can become a distinction distraction.

If you look at the yogic cities, it's a list of powers that Humans can attain. It's a remarkable manual for superhumans. Joe Dispenza has a great book about it. Alberto Viotto does. In fact, they're both speaking at the biohacking conference, biohackingconference.com guys in Austin that I'm putting on when it's May 28th.

Wow.

We have 4,000 people expected. And it's funny, they both study this and they tell you humans are capable of. Not a lot, but enough are capable of with meditation, of reading someone's mind or feeling someone's energy the way we just did with each other or all sorts of healing and other things. The footnotes though, say, by the way, all of these are things that may or may not happen on the path to enlightenment. And they're all distracted actions and if you seek them, they're like candy and you'll just get addicted to it and you'll stop evolving. So the wisest people, like, I'm meditating and I noticed like you did with water bubbling, you didn't go, oh my God, I can make water bubble. I'm going to bubble the oceans and just get stuck in that. You're like, I noticed.

Oh, I didn't tell you the next few years of that path.

But what happened? Do tell.

No, no, I think there is an element of what you're saying though that. Distractions. Yes. But I do think we do have a birthright to some really important.

We have a birthright to all of those and all people. I don't know if I can say that. I don't know that all people can do all of them in this life. Because there's probably for some of them some lineage stuff. If your DNA doesn't have that, it doesn't have that.

Well, a really basic one is intuition. Intuition and telepathy. Being able to predict where things might go.

Yeah.

Develop so quickly. If you're tracking it, that's one thing. If you're tracking it. If you're tracking it, and it's so funny because it's very yin and yang. Like you need the opposite, precise, scientific minded awareness to journal. This is how it occurred to me. This is the time that it occurred to me. This is, this is where I feel it in my body. Is it, you know, which senses is it coming through my mind, my body, my hearing. Right.

I do intuition training for personalities, but.

With women I'm like, why are you pursuing the path of trusting your intuition when you don't even trust your own feelings and thoughts? Just work on being right with the emotions that Come up with the preferences that come up with the boundaries that you feel like you need, the needs, the wants, you get right with those. Well, the need for intuition is first of all decreased because a lot of people want those things so they don't have to do that work. Right. It's like self protection. But at some point self trust ends up being more important than what you're, you know, whether you're trusting your intuition or your feelings.

That's fascinating. I want to know the difference between female intuition and male intuition.

Intuition, you know. I don't know because I'm not a man.

You've been a man in past lives, maybe. Come on.

All I know is, really, all I know is that it's hard for me to find a woman who comes into my school whose intuition doesn't develop once she starts trusting herself. And when you have a group of women who are in positive affinity, they feel safe enough, they trust each other enough, enough. The collective intelligence of that group, through the roof it becomes. When I teach, the thing I prioritize is making sure that the container is solid and structured enough so that everybody feels really healthy and safe. And when the energy in the container coalesces, it reaches this kind of point where there's like a center, like a heart, it's the collected energy. And when I'm teaching, I'm letting that tell me what's next. I'm having a conversation with the collective. It's so wild too, because I do these demos in my classes where like a woman will get up and she'll role play. We'll have a man volunteer and she's a woman who is, she is in that state of anger that's chronic but repressed. So it's biting, it's bitchy, but it's soft voiced and it's bitter and it's brittle and it's harsh. But she's nice. Her eyes could kill you, but she's nice, right? So bring her up and she's talking about, you know, a horrible relationship. She has a really huge conflict with a man. And then I'll bring up a male volunteer and I'll say, you can say to him, now pretend it's him and give it to him. Be nasty, be gnarly, be. This is a male volunteer who's come here, you can take it. And we're all watching, right? A whole lot. Sometimes it's, you know, know 200 people in the audience and, and we, we set a scale, 1 to 10. She yells at him. I ask her scale of 1 to 10. How. How fully did you manifest? Reveal your anger. She'll say, eight.

Wow.

And then I'll say, on the count of three, everybody raise the amount of fingers one to ten that you felt her do. Two. Every single time. Everyone in the audience, once we get to that place where we're all in the same energetic vibration, everybody agrees. I used to do a slapping game, which.

What could go wrong there?

No, I. Audiences have gotten more and more conservative, but, like, there was a contest, and the winner would get to slap me, and it's a status reversal. Right. So she would try to slap me on a scale of what my body needed anyway. Same thing. Anytime I say, like, what do I need? Scale of 1 to 10, everybody agrees. Like, the collective intelligence of a group of people that are resonating at the same frequency has such incredible intelligence. It surpasses what any one human can do. And yet it can also be the dumbest animal, like a big riot mob.

Lynn McTaggart is a friend who's been on the show, and she wrote a book called the Power of Eight that talks about what happens if you get eight or more people in a group focusing on something. Like things that are very. Not random happen. So there's something I need to look her up. Yeah, it's a really powerful book. She has another book called the Field that talks about this.

You know, I've been thinking that field might be the field. Like the field phenomenon. Like it.

It's a field.

It could be the way we govern ourselves.

Don't you. Don't you see that with your Taoist powers? You don't see the field that governs us?

The field that governs us, because what I'm talking about is the field that you can create with intention, with a group of people, people that has its. It's almost like a genie that will fulfill the needs of that group. It has that intelligence. I see ancestral fields really easily, but that's also part of my training.

So what happens when the woman thinks that she's expressed in an 8 out of 10 and everyone perceived a 2 out of 10? What do you do next?

Well, first she's shocked. She thought she had given it to him. But then she has to go through a process where armor doesn't just keep things from coming in, it keeps things from coming out, and it keeps feeling from happening. It's just a thaw. And underneath that rage is usually just a series of unexpressed desires that were hidden, that were scary to reveal. And women are so beautiful. I understand why they're a nightmare for many. I understand it because it gets so complicated. It's just like, how do you serve and honor a human who absolutely refuses to receive? Because it feels like she's giving her power away. But she won't find what it is that will make her happy. She'll only, you know, there's like negative desire where people will. Only women, they don't feel like they can ask for what they want, so they'll complain about its absence.

Some of that inner governor I believe is also mitochondrial. And there's a couple examples of this that I can think of. At one of my biohacking conferences, we had a three story tall stunt pillow where you could jump off a platform and fall three stories onto one of those puffer pads.

Wow.

And this is a level up from walking on coals like you would at a Tony Robbins event. And Tony Robbins, walking on coals is very powerful. No dig there. If you're stepping onto hot coals for the first time or you're jumping off, every fiber in your body will scream, you can't do it. The first time you go to inject yourself with a peptide, poking a needle through your skin, it took me an hour because there weren't a lot of people doing it back when I did it to start. And I remember the first time I needed an IM injection, I was going to do it in my thigh. It took me an hour to push the needle through my skin. When I did, it didn't hurt. But what was all that resistance? It was my armor. And it's mitochondria, they're keeping the body safe. It's their job to do it as if you're not in there. And if part of keeping the body safe is not saying something, they won't let you say something. They won't let you feel something because it's not safe. And so the more you become embodied in your word, the more you become aware of the nature of this, then the easier it is to say, oh, my system is warning me about this. But it's not a warning that's necessary given context. Because you and I know there's a refrigerator full of food, but the mitochondria don't.

They don't.

You eat all the time, Right? And you know that there's a pillow there. But mitochondria know that if you jump off a three story thing, you're probably going to die. So they're not going to let you and they're going to fight you. And I saw one billionaire stand up There for probably five minutes, shaking. And finally for him to jump off of that, he had to kind of take a step back and run and close his eyes and jump. And we've all felt this resistance. And the idea that it's not you, it's your protective automated system that is necessary for life. So there's something in there, and I think intuition rides in that network. I believe there's a fundamental difference between male intuition and female intuition.

What is it?

Well, I look at mitochondrial density, I'm pretty consistent this way. And there's lots of other things involved. But in men and women, we have the most mitochondria. So these are environmental sensors and they're little computers and they're power producers and they're factories. They do all of it. We have the most in our neurons in our brain and in our heart, and the cells that make energy there. And it's 15,000. And in most literature say, well, that's the most in the human body. But in women, your ovaries have 100,000 mitochondria per cell.

Oh, wow.

And that is a scientific theory about why female intuition is different.

Do you think that's why almost everything that I do in the school that works also links at least a little bit of the erotic?

100%.

Wow.

And you look at life force energy, which is the English words for tea, right? It is erotic.

Life is erotic.

It's where life comes from. And it's funny when people are doing the deep reset Mode work at 40 years in, which is. It's scientific. It's also very spiritual. People have great spiritual experiences there. But when they get stuck and like, my brain won't make any more energy, I just. I can't do this anymore. Like, that's great. Have a fantasy. Like what I'm like, sit there with electrosome, just have a fantasy. And pretty soon the sounds from electrodes like, bong, bong, bong. And like, that was a really good fantasy. Like, oh my God. Right? And then they can do more of the deep work, right? So you can turn on the erotic when your energy strained and the body will refill with energy. How in your teachings does a woman turn on her erotic.

By deciding to.

Just by deciding to. So you can just think about it and you get. What is that?

Well, it's always in the context of something, right? So it's in the context of. Usually it's.

It's.

One of the most powerful words, I think, in self development and in the journey inward is welcome. Something comes up, you know, that Resistance to jump off a cliff or inject yourself with peptides or a gnarly feeling, a fear. The immense power of being able to turn inward and just say, welcome, come sit at the table, tell me your stories, tell me what you need to hear is super, super powerful.

Welcoming your body, welcoming your emotions, welcoming.

The, welcoming the sensation. Right now you say it like welcome.

Oh, I see.

Right. So in a context, just like earlier when I was talking about anger, you know, finding yourself hot for being angry, finding yourself sexy or adorable or just like so for being sad and for being worried, oh my God, it's so, oh my God, I'm so worried, stressed out about this. I want this to work so bad.

Every time you speak from that voice, I'm like, what is going on here? I'm hoping listeners feel that too. It's not just me.

I mean, I don't know what it's like for men, but a woman's pussy is her best barometer, her best tester.

I do know this to be true. I think maybe I'm channeling past lives or something. But in private coaching, I have one of the members of my Apollo group, my highest level, level mastermind for entrepreneurs is just a world renowned obgyn. And we've had those conversations like there is so much intuition and groundedness and magic that women have and men have their own magic there. It's just a very different energetic. So you can sit there and when you're teaching women this, you're teaching them how to really alchemize these emotions using erotic energy.

Yeah, I mean there's a few things we do. The first thing is just learning to breathe from lower. If you're a chest breather, knowing how to breathe from lower down is really, really helpful. Another thing we use a lot of, and it's so playful and fun, is just Personas. So say it like a bimbo, say it like a dominatrix, or what would you do if you were really, really bad or if you were a con artist or if you were a thief or it just like so, you know, wigs, costumes, stop being yourself. People are like, be yourself, be yourself. I don't know if you know who you are in that kind of intrinsic way without playing with, not being yourself, getting unstuck from the idea of who you think you are and all of that can be really, really sexy, really, really hot.

I mean, that's why role playing is such a big thing, right?

Yeah. I mean role play is like 80% of my in person classes just role play a Traumatic scenario from your childhood or roleplay and ask you want to make that you're afraid to. And then when we like make it super sized, exaggerate it, shrink it and see how it feels in the body.

Why do you only work with women?

I didn't intend to start a school. It was women around me who were interested in my experiences as a dominatrix. And it got rolling that way. And once it did, I realized that I am actually really and have been, well, now it's been so long, interested in the hidden wisdom of women's bodies and how they are as a group, in a collective. That changes a little bit when men are present and people have asked me to teach men. And I like staying in my lane. I like speaking about the things that when I first started the school, I stopped listening to audiobooks, books, psychological series. I really wanted to create a pristine laboratory where all I was doing was I was doing with the women that I'd done with men for 17 years. I'm just watching their bonds, bodies in roleplay context. Except these contexts are them asking for what they want. Mainly, primarily it was about helping women say, ask, speak first, discover what it is they want and then speak it, but oftentimes testing it out, saying it, then saying a bigger version of it, a weirder, a more inconvenient version of it. And I was like, I want to see the same way I saw in the monasteries and in the dungeons, how women's bodies work when they speak about what they want energetically, emotionally, and especially after I had seen what power dynamics look like and how women were so often at the unnecessarily accidentally falling into the silenced, speechless, frozen, submissive end. You know, like one of the big questions to me, it's not a question anymore, but one of the big questions was how is it that a powerful woman can get herself into a scenario where a man says something to her and she loses her voice and she's sitting there going like, I'm going to say something, I'm going to say something. And she can't, you know, and the hand's going up this way.

I've heard this from many people.

And my ability to see what was happening energetically became really, really useful there because I'm like, oh, she's moving her energy inward to look for the problem. He's putting his attention on her. Two people are using their energy and attached to attention to using their attention to put their energy into. Of course she's stuck. And then the more pressure she feels, the more she's going deeper inward. She can't speak. So the. The first thing I started teaching was make a comment or ask a question about the person in front of you, even if it's stupid. Is that a tie you're wearing? Just to move the attention outward, put them on the spot. So for that moment, they have to put their attention on themselves. And the pattern's broken. And it worked.

Your book is so good that I actually tell my daughter she should read it. I'm like, there'll be some weird stuff. She's 17. There'll be some weird stuff in the first chapter, though. You can skip that part, but read the rest of the book because of those things. Like, if a guy's being a douchebag, ask him about his shoelaces, and it really shifts.

So practical.

Yeah. The 4,000 women you've taught, you didn't train them all to be dominatrixes. You were teaching them to have embodied power. So what percentage of your training is BDSM versus just how to be.

Okay, so first 0% of my training of how I train people's BDSM.

Yeah.

Entirely informed by my experiences.

Yeah.

But what I saw there. What I saw in the dungeon didn't stay in the dungeon. I saw it everywhere. I mean, there was a terrible period of my life where I was so energetically sensitive to what I was seeing that I couldn't sit at a New York City restaurant without being physically upset by the power dynamics I was seeing between men and women at tables around me. Poor guy. Floundering, trying really hard, but violating her boundaries that she didn't know. Like, such an innocent violence, such, you know, innocence on both sides. And then when MeToo happened, I was like, oh, man, there's gonna be so much pain. And I hate saying, me, too. Cause actually, Tarana Burke's original idea was awesome. It's just like, hey, I was sexually abused. Mm.

But did get a little bit bullying at one point.

There is nothing worse than victim privilege. And right now, everybody's doing it.

Mm. Thank you for saying it. Yeah.

Just lost opportunity.

How do we heal victim privilege?

I think. I think that if we start talking about it loud enough, we can start policing it and using it against each other so that there's more victims than perpetrators. I'm just kidding. That's like, what not to do?

I was like, oh, my God.

What not to do? Well, okay, so victimhood is real.

Yes.

Right. People hurt, they're impacted, and all of that pain is information for them. How you go and influence Someone who is hurting people is completely different than your experience as a victim. So you have to pass through the stage of victimhood for sure. How do we.

How.

But how do we get people to start seeing what victim privilege is? Soften the differentiation between victim and perpetrator. If you're going, oh, you hurt me, you're both victim and perpetrator at that, at that moment. I know that's a controversial thing to say, but like attack is attack.

It is.

The next thing is to really. I would reframe it as a matter of greed.

Greed for what?

Your emotions, your pain, your suffering, your desire to be healed, all of that is for you and is your power. And the moment that you see, start prematurely handling the perpetrator, you're giving your energy to training that perpetrator instead of using those resources for yourself. But that means being able to see that your anger is a gift, your hurt is a gift, your grief is a gift, and knowing how to alchemize them. So when you're feeling, when you're feeling all these things, if you're moving through those states of victimhood and you ask yourself, what is this experience inviting me to become, what is the opportunity here for me? What is the nourishment here for me? You go through that process completely. How you handle perpetrators and if you even bother is a different, It's a different game. It's a different, it's, you know, you. It's a different state of attention. It's different if somebody steps on your foot and you go, ow. Right?

Yeah.

I have seen, seen and been facilitator to and held space for women who have created such miracles with their perpetrators.

Wow, that's very high level stuff.

Women who have loved fathers through jail who went there because of what they did to them. I'm not saying that that's a requirement. I'm saying that's an opportunity.

And it's not condoning anything that a person did. You can't condone those things in an energetically clean way. When I'm teaching forgiveness, forgiveness is ultimately about setting down your own grudge so it doesn't affect you energetically anymore. And then you can interact with or not interact with whoever did something bad to you. And if you have the courage to do that and you're fully healed of the responsive scarring that I would say, your mitochondrial network or your energy field, it actually was injured. It was an energetic injury. Right. And when you fully healed that, you can be in the presence of an abuser and it doesn't hurt you anymore. And that's massive level healing. It's very hard to achieve.

I'm also a big fan of the next step, which is actually rehabilitating perpetrators and abusers with love and courage. And I know that that's a really tall order I'm not putting on anyone. But actually, if you're under the effect of someone and you've healed, you have a lot of information about how they roll. Oh, yeah, a lot of wisdom.

And canceling them isn't going to make them do better. It's kind of common knowledge that if a child is bullied, they become a bully.

Well, that's the thing. The tricky part about the word victim is most perpetrators are those two. I know. It's like there's something practical about putting people who are committing crimes in jail. There's like, there is an immediate get off my foot. Is that it depends on what the investment is. It depends on what the intention and the commitment is. If you're committed to human beings, you know, you're committed to paradise.

Yeah.

I also think people, women, because I know them, are a lot stronger than they think they are. And they're a lot more capable and they're a lot more loving and they're a lot more excited to be not the bigger person, but the superhero. You know, it's. It's beyond, like, there's. There's a settling for crumbs even in the Pyrrhic victory of being like, you know, I declared a boundary and I know that I'm in the right. And there you. It's. There's more, there's more. There's more. You can take. Take as much as you can, but, you know, when people are full, they're full, but there's so much more. This is such a fun game to be in life, you know, even with. Not even with, like, when we die, we will never be able to cry with a broken heart. When we're gone, we're never going to know what it feels like to wonder if the thing we're worried about is going to happen it or not.

So those are parts of having a human body.

Yeah. And they're. You know, we're a lot better at choosing what movies we like than accepting our human predicaments. Like, we want an exciting movie, but what we want a boring life.

I like to think that half the reason that people choose to be reincarnated is because, well, there's dancing and music and sex and steak and chocolate and wine and, you know, all the things and love and all the. The emotions that you don't get to experience if you're not here.

Yeah. And then there's thinking that you're you and then merging with the infinite and there's going back to thinking you're you. There's falling in love. There's losing yourself in music. Yeah.

One of the quotes that. That really landed for me and I. I have a lot of friends who are very energetically powerful women, and they're some of my dearest friends. And one of them said, we're the daughters of the witches they couldn't burn. Have you heard this before? Do you know where that comes from? No, I don't know who said that first either. But it's the idea that we've actually been selected to be powerful women. Right. Do you believe that?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I also think that. Am I really saying this publicly? I think that the suppression of women for millennia has proven an advantage in these times, as times change.

It would make sense if you. I study intelligence and power and all that stuff. The highest IQ race that we've identified is Ashkenazi Jews. And there's a book out there called something like, why are Ashkenazi Jews so Smart? Written by an Ashkenazi. And he said, it's really simple. For 2000 years, our people have been hunted and only the smartest ones could live. And we've kept breeding with each other because that's part of the religious faith. He says, it's no wonder only the smartest ones could get out. And I'm like, wow, that's kind of dark. But it also was a good explanation, so it would support what you're saying as well. Okay. You mentioned that you don't work with men, but you worked with men for 17 years when you were a professional dominatrix. You mentioned also that you have men who are volunteers in your group.

Yeah, that's really important.

Those are not normal men you're choosing.

I am.

These are just regular people off the street.

This is. They're not off the street. But I make such an effort to choose a really wide, unexpected group.

So you're not choosing guys who can hold space. You're just. Just using guys who are going to get triggered.

So I have to admit that there is a group of people that just won't come to a class like this. They just won't volunteer. Right. But I really look for the alpha male, the disconnected tech bro, some jerky dudes, you know, some rich dudes, some really dorky guys who are super lovable Like, I really like some effeminate guys. First, I want. First I want to provide the women in the classes with the ability to choose someone who resembles the person they're role playing with. So it can be an uncle, or it can be a boss, or it can be a brother, right? Also, we do a lot of our role plays with men. Of course, we can do them with women because there are women in the room, so we need to bring men in. But I usually start with men because whatever's going on with the woman when she sees a male body gets exaggerated. With women, women do this thing where they help each other out, right? They level with each other. Nobody's too high, nobody's too low. They negotiate in these energetic ways and kind of anticipate ways they can care for each other that are so subtle that it doesn't allow whatever the woman's afraid to say or afraid to share, it doesn't allow it to become big enough for everybody in the room to see. So the amazing thing, this is the thing that just blows my mind about men. I get these guys in and a lot of times they don't know what they're in for. Sometimes they're recommended by a student who, you know, they have a crush on or whatever. They're there and they spend hours sweating in this room while women are yelling at them, crying before their feet, like being emotional in a way that the average man cannot handle for 10 minutes, much less like three full days. And afterwards, they go into the green room and we have a few senior students hold space and ask their questions, make sure that they're okay. Every single time they say the same thing. I had no idea. I had no idea. I had no idea. They had no idea what women go through. They had no idea how beautiful it can be. They had no idea that listening, just holding space for a woman, freaking out in all these different ways, all he has to do, the reason that they're there, so we can watch their bodies react, where they start to cringe, where they get blocked. It's a more scientific test in the sense that this person has nothing at stake and they're still responding to where her voice is coming from, what frequency it's coming from. If she's disowned it, if she's not fully legitimate about it, it's going to be shrill or it's going to be whiny and start pulling at his intestines. It's going to pierce his head and his body will react. So it's like it's a scientific. Not scientific, but it's visible. It's visible and we feel it. We're all in the audience, we're watching. We're getting on uncomfortable. And we let her. I tell her how to try this, try this, try this. Change her body position, shift her state. Imagine that she's, you know, role playing it essentially. Until we get this moment where everything clicks, everything sings. His body releases, our bodies release. Her voice is free. And whatever she's saying, you want to say yes. It feels so good, and you feel free to say no. And sometimes the actual request is so outrageous. You're like, how am I even okay with this? But it works because it's congruent. It's what she really wants. It's just speaking it from a state where she's connected and the whole room is connected. It's so powerful. And then the man, the men, you know, backstage, they talk about it. They're mostly in shock, and they're like, wow, I had no idea. I had no idea. I had no idea. Wow.

It feels like there's a need for men to learn how to be able to hold space for that, to be able to be calm and centered even when there's a lot of emotion coming their way.

Yeah, I think that it's. It's. Again, don't like to move out of my lane, but I suspect it's easy. It's a lot easier than they think because it doesn't require. It doesn't actually require solving a problem. It requires presence. I don't know how hard that is, but it doesn't seem as hard as I would think.

It'S hard because I also don't viscerally understand all of the things that women go through for that I can have empathy for guys to be able to get to that grounded state. It's pretty freaking hard. Because we were talking about this at the wedeepin thing. A guy's hearts are actually really tender. All it takes is a woman in ninth grade to say the wrong thing, and for 20, 20 years, the guy is carrying that. We just don't show it.

Yeah, that makes sense. I'm just wondering how these guys that I pick can get through it. Maybe it's because it's not about them, but they are still under the impact of what's going on.

Yeah, I'm wondering that too, because it does rattle you. Even if, you know you're just holding space, that helps a lot that you're there as a proxy. But to just kind of be cooked in all of that emotion for a long time, it has to be life changing. But the guy guys too? I think so, yeah. It's interesting. I've had a lot of women in different groups that I lead just ask, how do we find men who know how to do that? And they're not saying, I want alpha men. They want grounded men who are emotional but not emotionally reactive.

So I don't teach men, but I teach women to teach their men.

How do you do that?

Everything I teach is women teaching others how to, to connect and share power. So one of the things I had said earlier about how difficult it is for. It's difficult to listen to somebody talk from their head if you disagree with them. It's also really difficult to listen to someone talk when they're not agreeing with what they're saying. So when women clean up the way they communicate, men have an easier time time listening.

Oh, that's for sure.

So one thing is a really, really common one and I don't want to shame anyone, but it's so common when you ask someone for something and you are not fully okay with that desire, which is going to be like most of the time for most of the women I know you're going to be looking at that for that person's yes to find, validate what you want. If I feel someone asking me something and they're also asking me to approve of the fact that they want it energetically, I'm going to feel cornered, I'm going to be afraid to say no. And even if I want to say yes, the fact that I know that I can't say no easily is going to piss me off. That is not energetically congruent.

So you get a yes, but it's not a good yes.

So in the language of attention, the person is asking me if I can do something for them, they're putting their attention on me. So I have to figure out, can I do this? Am I going to be able to do this? Does it fit in my calendar? Do I have the resources? Do I feel like it's worth it? Do I want it? There's a saying, right? Even if I say you want to have coffee tomorrow, you have to go inward. But if you're also being like, is it okay that I'm asking for coffee? A coffee date, you then have to go, you have to worry about the other person. So your attention is split because their attention is split. And the moment you have splitting of attention, you have incongruence. It's really hard to stay rooted and grounded so women will, instead of asking for what they want, complain about what they don't have. They'll ask for things. There's just so many ways in which the communication, especially between partners, from a woman to a man, that's going to upset his nervous system, not because he's a man, but because he's a human being. And if she was asking a woman, it would be exactly the same level of upset. Maybe she would be able to relate to the twisting of of it. So she would anticipate some of it and like, soften some of it. But generally, you know, someone's angry and smiling at you, feels incredibly bad. Somebody is, you know, not. It's about choosing a state. Choose whether you're influencing someone or whether you're expressing yourself. It's not the same thing.

We've all heard someone ask for something and you know that if you say no, that it's going to cause an emotional reaction. And it never feels, it never works. So when a woman's gone through your program, what does she do different when she asks?

First, she prepares. And so to prepare to make one ask, I tell my students this because I'm saying you're going to spend a lot more time than you think is reasonable preparing this one ask. Whether you actually go ask it or not is another story. But you're going to prepare because once you do that work, other ones will be able to cross that bridge. You're building. Building a bridge. So getting right with what you want means being able to feel, receiving it in your body and really being able to imagine the joy that it would create for you if you would have it. Also, what that would signal to you, what that would mean to you, what that would enable to you to do. So you allow yourself to actually get your hopes up, you know, make it big enough that it sits in your system as fully legitimate. So there's no part of you that goes, well, maybe I don't want it, or maybe I don't need to have it. It's like really important. And when you connect to the joy of it, you want to tell the other person. You want to make sure that you get them to feel the joy you would have if they said yes, just the joy. So it's a really good invitation. It's about being able to extend a really beautiful invitation. And the paradoxical part, part is instead of that creating pressure, it has the opposite effect. I'm like, I would so love for you, Dave, to buy me a house in Austin.

Nice try.

I would love, like it would be so phenomenal.

But it doesn't come with any ick.

No ick. Because I already know that I'm going to have such a great time getting someone to participate in the party of me getting a house in Austin, that I have nothing but joy. I'm like, you. Say no to me. I'll get to continue savoring this and asking other people, does this mean we've.

Finally convinced you to move to Austin? Can you feel my joy?

I'm never leaving. I'm never leaving. No. But really, the way kids do it, they're utterly shameless. And it's so delightful. They're like, buy me a pony. I want a pony. I want a house. I want a tree house. Obviously, you know, we have different things to consider in terms of adult relationships. However, the energy of it, you have no say in what you want. You have no say in it. You don't make it up. So when you are. When you're asking or inviting, you're just confessing a desire. You had no parting, creating. It's just something that comes through you.

That might be the most important thing you've said. Because you can ask someone, why do you like that? And we believe we should have a reason for liking things. And if you can ask questions all day long into the day, I like it because I like it. It's an emotion. It's not a thought. And just understanding that and being at peace with, I want a Lamborghini. Why? I don't know. I just want one. If that's what you want, you say, well, it's because I want power. I want status. Those are all different stories. But end of the day, because it's something that you want, and it's same thing. I want a spanking. Why do you want that? There is no freaking reason. We can make up all kinds of stories, but it's what your body wanted.

I think there is a reason. It's just ineffable. And it has to do with destiny. These things don't come through us randomly. They take us on a path. They're like breadcrumbs. And a Lamborghini can be substituted with a Ferrari or a photo shoot that feels like you just got a Lamborghini. But our bodies are onto something. They're moving us collaboratively towards a future. And your desire and somebody else's desire are gonna have a resonant match. It's but ineffable because putting words to it is like defending something that you received from the higher power in the mail.

It's also. There's a difference between a want and. And we'll say a manipulated desire. So you have an ego and. Well, I had greed and I had sloth and I wanted all the pizza and all those things.

Those are compensatory.

Yeah. Tell me the difference between a wand that's just a demon. That's what I want because it's what I like.

Actually, you nailed it. Because if you can't explain it, it usually is the ones that move through you. The rest of them are there to fix and change things that you perceive are wrong. So there is. And you know, you don't have to get into your head about it because you can kind of feel it when you're aching for something to fix something. If you imagine yourself having it and it just makes you feel at, like, relief. That's not the full story. If it doesn't expand you. If it doesn't take you a little bit higher than you are rather than fixing you.

Right, okay. So then expansiveness to it. Okay.

Yeah. And actually that's why complaining feels so bad. Because usually complaint hides a desire, and usually that desire is bigger than the size of complaint. So it feels gnarly because it doesn't fit. You know the woman who's just like, pick up your socks. I just want you to pick up your socks. She doesn't want just the socks picked up. Sometimes she does, but it doesn't feel icky if she does. It feels like, pay more attention to the space where we make love or pay more attention to me or pay it like. Or do more. There is a bigger story at play. So those are incongruent.

That's one of the reasons that I recommend your book so frequently. It's because in the book, you have a set of exercises to help a woman get more in touch with what she really wants versus what she thinks she wants because of societal programming. And it's a really fast and actually a beautiful process you describe in the book. And once someone's clean on what they want, then the aspect for it is relatively easy to do. My girlfriend who runs wedeeping and does these deep relationship things, she's a relationship expert. She's convinced that one of the primary drivers for men is to make women happy. And if you tell us what you really want and it's true, we probably want to do that. And you listen to John Gray, another good friend, the guy who wrote A Minute from Mars one wrote From Venus. He's like, well, when a man gives a woman what she wants, Our testosterone goes up, our dopamine goes up, and we're better off as a result of that. And so there's this beautiful way of serving each other and relationships get tangled up. When you say, I want you to pick up your socks, but what you really wanted was something else. And then you get what you thought you wanted and you're still not happy. And the guy's like, where's my testosterone?

That's so interesting. I didn't know about the testosterone, but I keep saying that 99% of a desire is 100% wrong.

Wow.

Because if you're, if you're like, if you're asking somebody to go through the trouble of actually making an effort to hit the spot and you tell them something that doesn't quite reach, they're gonna know. Human bodies, men aren't stupid. They know. They know if they've hit the spot because we light up and we're either let or we're not. There's no image between. It's either. Oh, yes, yes. That's what I wanted. Thank you. Right. Like really, really, really taking it in. Or it's thank you. Right. You feel it? Yeah, you feel it and it feels nasty. Feels like, you know, he's being humored, he was lied to. And I'm not blaming women. I'm just saying I understand, I understand. You know, I've been through it, the conditioning.

Even though you teach women primarily, they interact a lot with men. Is there a way that men can ask for what they want from women in a way that's energetically clean?

I tend to find men's requests to.

Be pretty clean interesting.

More often than women. And I think that there's a little bit of resentful envy.

Oh, wow.

There's a lot of envy and resentment as there is. But women, when they get resentful, they're usually envious. There's a piece where they're like, oh, why does he just let himself lay on the couch? How is it that he can just say, do this in such a matter of fact way? Like it's a fact, like it's going to happen. It doesn't even feel like a request. It just feels like reality came out of his mouth and just happened. This is a wall. Look, there's a wall. I can't move there anymore. I, I, I. When women are, when women are in difficult dynamics with entitled men that just, like, aren't going to learn how to be more receptive, I say hire that man as your coach. Learn entitlement from him.

Wow.

Just learn how to say things in a way where it's like, this is reality. See how it lands. You know, there's nuance there because there's certain things women will be less likely to get away with. But follow the energy.

Well, you've convinced me to ask for something that I want.

Okay.

I didn't plan this. I want you to speak on stage at the biohacking conference.

I would love to. Really? That was a really clean ass.

This was not a setup. Like, truly. It just popped into. I'm like, oh, my gosh. People need to hear more from you. Thank you. All right, I will make a hole on the main stage.

Should we do demos?

Let's do a demo. That's a good idea. Okay, let's do a demo. All right, guys. Biohackingconference.com Kesha is literally the best author of personal development books for women I have ever come across in lots of of reading. You're a master, so it would be an honor to have you. Thank you.

Thank you.

Wow, you are so fun to interview.

Oh, my goodness. I'm so glad to hear you say that, because I haven't done something like this in years.

Really? Wow, you're natural. I'm having so much fun.

Me too.

Maybe it's because what you're saying is congruent. Could be. We've talked about power. Power. We've talked about relationships, and we've talked about healing, but we haven't talked about one of the manifestations of power. It's money. What is your take on money and power?

Well, first, women and money, but also money in general. Since I am very, very interested in emotions and emotional alchemy, the first thing is that we have this idea of that money should be emotionally neutral. And this creates a lot of problems.

Do people really have that idea? I never thought money was emotional.

Hold hard cash. Stay rational. Be logical. Ask for what you're worth, not what you feel you're worth. All of the. And when emotions around money do come up, it's usually very quickly self incriminating. Like, I just don't believe in myself, so I'm not asking for the salary I want. Right. Like entitlement, tight. Is this okay? Not okay. So there isn't enough space. Right. Also, it does create a situation where the more sociopathic element feels more comfortable accumulating lots of money. Because we don't have an emotional language around money. Women are in a difficult position when it comes to money. And I witnessed this in the first money class I ever taught. It was the wildest. One of the wildest things that's happened in a classroom I'm teaching. I'm starting to teach a class about money. And we're about talking, talking about money, right? And then about 20 minutes in, the room gets really heavy. It gets really hot and sick. And some of my most intelligent students are like, raising their hands and basically saying nonsense. Like, I stop the whole class, I say, what is happening here? What is happening? We start talking about what's happening. And from that, it became clear that many, many women have a total fog when subjects about money come up. One of the women in the class was an engineer. There were incredibly, incredibly mathematically financially adept women who can't look at their own financial statements. They fog. And I think there are. What we came to is that there are a lot of mixed messages. There's a lot of status confusion, role confusion, men being the provider, that sort of need to be unpacked and allowed to come into feeling before we can do anything else. So what ended up happening was the focus of the first, most important Power with Money class became the ability to shamelessly speak about money, talking about money. So first thing, they learned to get really shameless, like really shame free. Right. Just, this is. So this is what I want, this is what I need. This is what I have really like money confessionals, things I'm. Things I'm hiding, things I'm avoiding all of those things. And they started getting really good at their money shame. But the next thing that came up was the moment they started having money conversations with other people. All of these beautiful, empathetic women who are courageous and now shameless would witness the other person's money, money shame come up.

Wow.

Money conversations are a lot harder than people realize. Getting rational is a way of bypassing all of that. Yeah, this is just the way it is now. So many people have different private money micro cultures. So you do actually in relationships in, in so many instances, have to have an ability to communicate about money. And then the other thing is the people who are least comfortable with money from the get are usually the people who are most interested in doing really good things in the world. That's not 100% the case, because there's a journey people can, can go through. But the way that I've come to look at it is, yes, there is huge economic injustice, but we inherit what we inherit from our ancestors, as flawed as it is, and it comes into our hands for our reweaving. So whether it's like government or law or medicine or the economy. There is no sitting out. You can be like, I'm not playing the game of the economy. I'm not playing. I'm going to go live in a commune. Guess what? You need to buy land and that's private property.

You're still playing the game.

No, out. There's no way to sit out. And that's the thing. I really want the women I teach to get stupid rich or become very powerful with whatever money they do have and learn to wield it like really, really own that power. It is how we've organized the world. It's super important and really, really, really just. It's really first and foremost about handling the shame that comes around it. And also being able to forgive the fact that the things we inherit, like the economy or the government or medicine are flawed. We're all idiots trying to figure it out. And we're inheriting things that are, that are toxic and non toxic, enlightened and stupid. And like we're here, we have our turn on the mic. It's an eye blink of a lifetime and this is our turn to take it fully, reweave it to the best of our ability and leave something different. But that's never going to happen with the economy. If all of the people who are squeamish about money try to sit it out in a game where there's no, there's no side bench.

There are a lot of young people being kind of apathetic about money, saying I don't have a chance. Like I can't afford a home, I can barely make ends meet. How do they shift their energy with money?

Well, this is the thing you. Yeah, it's, it's also one of the reasons where their, why their energy is going against the system and against institutions and against order. It's because there's no place inside.

Yeah.

So you can't force it when there's no soil for them to plant in. But wait until they get kids. You know, it's like it's inevitable that they're going to take an interest. But is it going to be an empowered one is a different story. I don't think people feel like, okay, so again, I'll speak about the students who come into my school. They don't realize that there is no door actually closed on Earth in which they don't belong. Like, this is your entire planet Earth. This is my entire planet Earth. All of the rules and all of the laws are made up. Money's made up, up. It's all made up. It doesn't mean you can do whatever the hell you want. It does mean that everything was created in conversations, agreements made. And there's no inherent reason why you're not cut out to have a conversation about how our world economy works. Because there's a feeling that that is so. So many people opt out. Why aren't there more people trying to create a new kind of economic, economic system?

We have all the bitcoin people.

You know that that audience is skewed masculine, right?

Sure. Okay, now I'm going to be a little controversial.

Go for it.

I mean, the guys who build bridges are usually guys, right? I mean there are things that guys tend to build in the world and not that women can't do it. It's just if you're looking at the statistics, 80% of engineers are men, right? And there are great women engineers. My grandmother was a PhD nuclear engineer. So it runs in. So when I look at that though, maybe is there, I don't even know, is there some masculine, feminine thing going on there around building economic systems? I have no idea. Never thought.

Well, here's the interesting part. The beautiful thing I think about life is the more attention you put on something, the more it blossoms and unfolds and shows you all its layers. And I think attention is our superpower. We sustain attention on something. It hooks and it opens, it does. So in recent years, there's a lot of evidence that when women are in charge of money, it's better for everyone, everybody and the economy. Like there is evidence. You know, you, like look at, you know, certain tribunals of countries fixing economies in Iceland or Finland or you look at the Grameen bank where 99 of the micro lenders, they're all, they're only the women who only. It's only women that are allowed to borrow money. And you see the repayment rate is higher than any bank in the world. Like there is, there is evidence. I'm not trying to be a female supremacist on here. I do think that there is very, there are very good reasons and we don't even need to get into biology, just conditioning alone. There are very good reasons why men, humans raised one way and women raised another way would be better and worse at different things. Again, put more attention on it. And how that shakes loose, how that pans out as we look at it deeper, has more nuance.

Because I'm dating someone who studies all the different kinds of relationships we've come across. People in female led relationships, women's in charge of finances, women's kind of the head of the household, and not necessarily the men, are effeminate, but it's a submissive role. It doesn't mean weak, it just means submissive. But when you talk to the vast majority of women out there, they don't love managing household finances. At least the ones I know don't. So what's going on? Is this a new trend? And why is it that so many women are saying, I don't want a managed household finances? That's right.

A lot of them hit the fog.

Oh, is that why?

Yeah, it's the first thing we came across in the money class. So difficulty talking about money. We divided up the class into, well, they were first four quadrants, but then we realized heiresses are their own category. So we had women who are married to somebody who makes more money, women who are dating people primarily who make more money, women who are married to somebody who makes. Makes less money, women who primarily date people who make less money. And then we had to add heiresses because they had their own.

What is that?

Well, women who inherited a lot of money got it from their family. So, you know, they have wealth, but they're not like the women who are making more money and dating people or making more money and married.

They have more money, but they're not making it. Okay, got it.

We did this game where each woman, each quadrant had to team up together and talk about what it was like, oh, wow. And what we got was what we call, like, they didn't know this was coming. But what we got was the suck fest.

Wow.

So the women who were dating were married to be to men who made more money, Felt compromised, infantilized constantly. Yeah. The women who were making more money felt bitter, angry.

Can't win, can't win.

But the thing is, yeah, the men can't win, but the women can't win. Right. And then we asked them what they thought about the other quadrants, and it was like, super grass is greener. Super grass is greener. I just want a man to take care of me, says the woman who is right. Running the household, the heiress. I just want money not to exist. Right.

Wow.

And then when we started getting together, they started teaching each other strategies for how to communicate with our partners. Because the suck fest only was happening because they weren't able to communicate. Right. You feel infantilized if your partner has more money. If you can't communicate about money, hey, you think this, you know, like, so. So when a woman starts to make more money, she feels, wow, I have independence. But also, when she starts relating to men. She's like, wow, I'm never going to be protected the way that I want to. This whole thing doesn't have to be about money, but it ends up being the elephant in the room nobody talks about. I mean, I think there's a huge percentage of relationships that end because of money or divorces that happen because of money.

Certainly divorces are very expensive. That's one of the reasons it's a good idea to have relationship skills. Someone asked me that at the last biohacking conference. If you go back and tell yourself something when you were 20, what would it be? I would have said, you should study relationships as a skill as much as you do entrepreneurship. Because then I would have picked more appropriate or compatible partners, and I would have had the skills to navigate that. And given that I had Asperger's syndrome and I was. Was kind of an idiot, that would have been really smart. But I didn't know that there were skills to study. I just. I don't know. My parents did.

I mean, most people. That's the wild part. The most important things that human beings have to do, communicate, be in relationships, breathe and sleep and eat. Are the things we assume those things just happen. You just know. You just fall in love. It's a skill. It's skill.

Wow.

It's so.

And talking about money is a skill. And this is one of the programs that you have so specifically.

It's actually one of the most popular ones.

Interesting. Okay, I wasn't aware of that one, but wow, that sounds like a really potent thing to do.

So many social experiments. And the first one I ever taught, the tuition was, I think it was a hundred dollars that you get from strangers. We were doing a beta test, so it actually was free. But, like, the only women who were allowed to come in who could prove they had asked strange strangers for money.

Wow.

So one woman wrote a sign on her chest and stood in the street and asked people to safety pin money to her outfit. Like, people did crazy, wild things. Yeah.

And.

And by the time they got to a class, a woman stood. This was a bad move. She stood beside an ATM and just asked people who were withdrawing money if she could have some.

Oh, my gosh.

She explained it was for a class and this was a social experiment, but, like, people thought she was nuts, but by the time they got into class, they were thinking about things in a very different way. So it created some cool things.

That reminds me of rejection therapy. I did a podcast on that years ago, and there's A guy, I'm wishing I could remember the episode off the top of my head. And he, for 30 days, every day would ask for unreasonable things until he got a no. And by the end of it, he was really frustrated because he'd go into Burger King and say, can I have a burger refill? And they go, okay. And he's like, damn, I was drinking, like, all these ridiculous things. And he was just trying to over overcome a fear of rejection.

Yeah, right. But he got really good at legitimacy.

He did. And so getting over fear of asking for money is a really potent thing. Wow. You do some incredibly wise and edgy in a good way things in your classes. It's fascinating. Your whole body of work is intriguing. I am so grateful we got to go long on this episode. And if you're listening now, I'm grateful for your time and attention. And I think you are still listening because this was such a cool interview. Where can people find out more about your work?

I have a website. The website is WeTeachPower.com Ooh, that's very straightforward.

I can remember that. WeTeachPower.com and I have an ask for you if you're listening to the show. If you are a woman, you need to read Kasia's book. And this isn't because she's trying to sell a lot of books. It won't change her life. For almost any author, it won't change her life if they sell another hundred bucks. You don't make real money from books, but it will absolutely change your life. Just read the book, and if the first chapter is too spicy for you, you should probably deal with that trigger or just skip it. It doesn't matter. But read the book. It'll change your life. And if you are a man who's in a relationship or wants to be in a relationship with a woman, you should read the book too. When I read it, I just understood so many things in my life that never made sense. Relationship things and just what was going on. And it gave me more empathy for why. Why don't you just ask for what you want? Because I'm happy to give it to you. And when I read Unbound, I'm like, oh, that's why she's not doing it. And so then I could feel just more patience. So truly, from the bottom of my heart, thank you for writing that book. It's a meaningful work.

Thank you so much. You're a gem of a man.

Thank you. Kasia. I would say your last name, but.

I'm afraid Urbaniac Urbaniac. Urbaniac.

Well, I also would ask you, if you like this episode, go to biohackingconference.com in May in Austin, and you'll get a chance to see Kasia on stage in an interview or a talk. And we'll do some demos and we'll have a lot of fun. Along with Joe Dispenza and along with Alberto Villodo, one of my shaman teachers, and many other amazing speakers. And 4000 high vibe. People would love to see you there. See you next time on the Human Upgrade podcast. Emotional reaction. And it never feels.

It never works.

So when a woman's gone through your program, what does she do different when she asks?

First, she prepares. And so to prepare to make one ask, I tell my students this because I'm saying you're going to spend a lot more time than you think is reasonable preparing this one ask. Whether you actually go ask it or not is another story. But you're gonna prepare because once you do that work, other ones will be able to cross that bridge. You'll be building a bridge. So getting right with what you want means being able to feel, receiving it in your body and really being able to imagine the joy that it would create for you if you would have it. Also, what that would signal to you, what that would mean to you, what that would enable you to do. So you allow yourself to actually get your hopes up. You know, make it big enough that it sits in your system as fully legitimate so there's no part of you that goes, well, maybe I don't want it, or maybe I don't need to have it. It's, like, really important. And when you connect to the joy of it, you want to tell the other person. You want to make sure that you get them to feel the joy you would have if they said yes, just the joy. So it's a really good invitation. It's about being able to extend a really beautiful invitation. And the paradoxical part is instead of that creating pressure, it has the opposite effect. I'm like, I would so love for you, Dave, to buy me a house in Austin.

Nice try.

I would love. It would be so phenomenal.

But it doesn't come come with any ick.

No ick. Because I already know that I'm gonna have such a great time getting someone to participate in the party of me getting a house in Austin that I have nothing but joy. I'm like, you say no to me. I'll get to continue savoring this and asking other people, does this mean we've.

Finally convinced you to move to Austin. Can you feel my joys?

I'm never leaving. I'm never leaving. No, but, but, but really, like. Like the. The way kids do it, they're utterly shameless. And it's so delightful. They're like, buy me a pony. I want a pony. I want a house. I want a tree house. Obviously, you know, we have different things to consider in terms of adult relationships. However, the energy of it, you have no say in what you want. You have no no say in it. You don't make it up. So when you're asking or inviting, you're just confessing a desire you had no part in creating. It's just something that comes through you.

That might be the most important thing you've said because you can ask someone, why do you like that? And we believe we should have a reason for liking things. If you can ask questions all day long. End of the day, I like it because I like it. It's an emotion. It's not a thing thought and just understanding that and being at peace with. I want a Lamborghini. Why? I don't know. I just want one. If that's what you want, you say, well, it's because I want power. I want status. Those are all different stories. But end of the day, because it's something that you want, and it's same thing. I want a spanking. Why do you want that? There is no freaking reason. We can make up all kinds of stories, but it's what your body wanted.

I think there is a reason. It's just ineffable. It has to do with destiny. These things don't come through us randomly. They take us on a path. They're like breadcrumbs. And like, a Lamborghini can be substituted with a Ferrari or a photo shoot that feels like you just got a Lamborghini. But our bodies are onto something. They're moving us collaboratively towards a future. And like, your desire and somebody else's desire are gonna have a resonant match. Like, it's. It's. But, you know, ineffable. Because putting words to it is like defending something that you received from the higher power in the mail.

You know, it's also. There's a difference between of want and, we'll say, a manipulated desire. So you have an ego and. Well, I had greed and I had sloth, and I wanted all the pizza and all those things.

Those are compensatory.

Yeah. Tell me the difference between a want that's just a doing that's what I want because it's what I like.

Actually, you nailed it. Because if you. You can't explain it, it usually is the ones that move through you. The rest of them are there to fix and change things that you perceive are wrong. So there is. And, you know, you don't have to get into your head about it because you can kind of feel it when you're aching for something to fix something. If you imagine yourself having it and it just makes you feel at, like, relief. That's not the full story. If it doesn't expand you, if it doesn't take you a little bit higher than you are rather than. Than fixing you.

Right, okay. So then expansiveness to it. Okay.

Yeah. And actually that's why complaining feels so bad, because usually complaint hides a desire, and usually that desire is bigger than the size of complaint. So it feels gnarly because it doesn't fit. You know the woman who's just like, pick up your socks. I just want you to pick up your socks. She doesn't want just the socks picked up. Sometimes she does, but it doesn't feel icky if she does. It feels like, pay more attention to the space where we make love or pay more attention to me, or pay it like or do more. There is a bigger story at play. So those are incongruent.

That's one of the reasons that I recommend your book so frequently. It's because in the book, you have a set of exercises to help a woman get more in touch with what she really wants versus what she thinks she wants because of societal programming. It's a really fast and actually a beautiful process you describe in the book. And once someone's clean on what they want, then the actual ask for it is relatively easy to do. My girlfriend who runs wedeepin and does these deep relationship things, she's a relationship expert. She's convinced that one of the primary drivers for men is to make women happy. And if you tell us what you really want, and it's true, we probably want to do that. And you listen to John Gray, another good friend, the guy who wrote a Menifer Mars one Reprimand Venus, he's like, well, when a man gives a woman what she wants, our testosterone goes up, our dopamine goes up, and we're better off as a result of that. And so there's this beautiful way of serving each other. And relationships get tangled up when you say, I want you to pick up your socks, but what you really wanted was something else. And then you get what you thought you wanted and you're still not happy. And the guy's like, where's my testosterone?

That's so interesting. I didn't know about the testosterone, but I keep saying that 99% of a desire is 100% percent wrong.

Wow.

Because if you're, if you're like, if you're asking somebody to go through the trouble of actually making an effort to hit the spot and you tell them something that doesn't quite reach, they're gonna know. Human bodies, men aren't stupid. They know. They know if they've hit the spot because we light up and we're either lit or we're not. There's no in between. It's either. Oh, yes. Yes. That's what I wanted. Thank you. Right. Like really, really, really taking it in. Or it's thank you. Right. You feel it. Yeah, you feel it. And it feels nasty. Feels like, you know, he's being humored. He was lied to. And I'm not blaming women. I'm just saying I understand, I understand. You know, I've been through it, the conditioning.

Even though you teach women primarily, they interact with lot with men. Is there a way that men can ask for what they want from women in a way that's energetically clean?

I tend to find men's request to.

Be pretty clean, interesting.

More often than women. And I think that there's a little bit of resentful envy. There's a lot of envy and resentment as there is. But women, when they get resentful, they're usually envious. There's a piece where they're like, oh, why does he just let himself lay on the couch? How is it that he can't just say, do this in such a matter of fact way? Like it's a fact, like it's going to happen. It doesn't even feel like a request. It just feels like reality came out of his mouth and just happened. This is a wall. Look, there's a wall. I can't move there anymore. I, I, I. When women are, when women are in difficult dynamics with entitled men that just, like, aren't going to learn how to be more receptive, I say hire that man as your coach. Learn entitlement from him.

Wow.

Just learn how to say things in a way where it's like, this is reality. See how it lands? You know, there's nuance there because there's certain things women will be less likely to get away with. But follow the energy.

Well, you've convinced me to ask for something that I want.

Okay.

I Didn't plan this. I want you to speak on stage at the biohacking conference.

I would love to.

Really?

That was a really clean ask.

This was not a setup. Like, truly. It just popped into my head. I'm like, oh, my gosh. People need to hear more from you. Thank you. All right, I will make a hole on the main stage.

Should we do demos?

Let's do a demo. That's a good idea. Okay, let's do a demo. All right, guys. Biohackingconference.com Kasha is literally the best author of personal development books for women I have ever come across in literally lots of reading. You're a master, so it would be an honor to have you. Thank you.

Thank you.

Wow, you are so fun to interview.

Oh, my goodness. I'm so glad to hear you say that because I haven't done something like this in years.

Really? Wow. You're natural. I'm having so much fun.

Me too.

Maybe it's because what you're saying is congruent. Could be. We've talked about power. Power. We've talked about relationships, and we've talked about healing, but we haven't talked about one of the manifestations of power. It's money. What is your take on money and power?

Well, first, women and money, but also money in general. Since I am very, very interested in emotions and emotional alchemy, the first thing is that we have this idea, idea that money should be emotionally neutral. And this creates a lot of problems.

Do people really have that idea? I never thought money was emotional.

Hold hard cash. Stay rational. Be logical. Ask for what you're worth, not what you feel you're worth. All of the. And when emotions around money do come up, it's usually very quickly self incriminating. Like, I just don't believe in myself. So I'm not asking for the salary I want. Right. Entitlement, not entitled. Is this okay? Not okay. So there isn't enough space. Right. Also, it does create a situation where the more sociopathic element feels more comfortable accumulating lots of money. Because we don't have an emotional language around money, women are in a difficult position when it comes to money. And I witnessed this in the first money class I ever taught. It was the wildest, one of the wildest things that's happened in a classroom room. I'm starting to teach a class about money, and we're talking about money. And then about 20 minutes in the room gets really heavy. It gets really hot and sick. And some of my most intelligent students are like, raising their hands and basically saying nonsense like, I stop the whole class. I say, what is happening here? What is happening? We start talking about what's happening. And from that, it. It became clear that many women have a total fog when subjects about money come up. One of the women in the class was an engineer. There were incredibly, incredibly mathematically financially adept women who can't look at their own financial statements. They fog. And I think there are. What we came to is that there are a lot of mixed messages. There's a lot of status confusion, role confusion, men being the provider, that sort of need to be unpacked and allowed to come into feeling before we can do anything else. So what ended up happening was the focus of the first, most important power with money class became the ability to shamelessly speak about money, talking about money. So first thing, they learned to get really shameless, like really shame free. Right. Just. This is so. This is what I want. This is what I need. This is what I have really, like money confessionals, things I'm. Things I'm hiding, things I'm avoiding all of those things. And they started getting really good at their money shame. But the next thing that came up was the moment they started having money conversations with other people. All of these beautiful, empathetic women who are courageous and now shameless would witness the other person's money shame come up.

Wow.

Money conversations are a lot harder than people realize. And getting rational is a way of bypassing all of that. Yeah, this is just the way it is now. So many people have different private money micro cultures. So you do actually in relationships in. In so many instances, have to have an ability to communicate about money. And then the other thing is the people who are least comfortable with money from the get are usually the people who are most interested in doing really good things in the world. That's not 100% the case, because there's a journey behind people can go through. But the way that I've come to look at it is, yes, there is huge economic injustice, but we inherit what we inherit from our ancestors, as flawed as it is, and it comes into our hands for our reweaving. So whether it's like government or law or medicine or the economy, there is no sitting out. You can be like, I'm not playing the game of the economy. I'm not playing. I'm gonna go live on a commune. Guess what? You need to buy land, and that's private property.

You're still.

There's no out. There's no way to sit out. And that's the thing is like I really want, I really want the women I teach to get stupid rich or become very powerful with whatever money that you have and learn to wield it, like really, really own that power. It is how we've organized the world. It's super important and, and really, really just. It's really first and foremost about handling the shame that comes around it and also being able to forgive the fact that the things we inherit, like the economy or the government or medicine are flawed. We're all idiots trying to figure it out and we're inheriting things that are, that are toxic and non toxic, enlightened and stupid. And like we're here, we have our turn on the mic. It's an eye blink of a lifetime and this is our turn to take it fully reweave it to the best of our ability and leave something different. But that's never going to happen with the economy. If all of the people who are squeamish about money try to sit it out in a game where there's no, there's no side bench, there are a.

Lot of young people being kind of apathetic about money. They're saying I don't have a chance. Like I can't afford a home, I can barely make ends meet. How do they shift their energy with money?

Well, this is the thing.