Finding Radical Wholeness With a Modern-Day Master - Ken Wilber | 1074 | Dave Asprey

You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey. Formerly, you're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey. Each week on the show I talk about biohacking, the art and science of changing the environment around you and inside of you so that you have full control of your own biology. But our guest today is legendary, and it's been decades, understanding how humans are all interconnected with each other, how you fit into the world. He's an absolute pioneer, a visionary, a philosopher, and that barely scratches the surface of his work in the world. I'm talking about none other than Ken Wilber. Ken, welcome.

Thank you, Dave. It's a pleasure to be with you, Ken.

You're known, and I think for listeners, many of us have heard of Integral Theory, which I would say is a North star for seekers of knowledge. And you've written a bunch of books like A Theory of Everything, Sex, Ecology, Spirituality. And your newest book, Finding Radical Wholeness, is coming out soon. So you're not slowing down. If anything, you're accelerating your writing, right?

Yeah, it's. It's one of the things that when I look back on my career, I'm sort of happiest about. So I can. I've written like over 30 books and they're all on my bookshelf and I can see them all, and that's great. But I do notice that I have sort of increased the frequency with which I write, and that's a little bit odd to me because I would sort of just naturally think that I would sort of slow down a little bit. I mean, I'm 74 years old now, and so. But it just seems to sort of increase. And in part it's because I continue to think of different ways to explain the general ideas, and I seem to think of different ways to explain it with a fairly rapid amount of turnover. And so I'll finish one book and I actually have another way that I can say essentially the same stuff. So I'll finish one book and then usually I'll wait like three or four months and then I'll start the next book. And that's just kind of continued. And I'm very pleased with it. I like the different outputs that I've produced and the different types of explanations. And I've continued to discover different aspects of human beings that can be approached in a more holistic and whole mind way. So I now include growing up, waking up, opening up, cleaning up and showing up. And each of those refer to a different type of wholeness that you can Have. So just to give a simple example, if, say, a thousand years ago, when it was thought that the Earth went around the sun and the Earth itself was flat, and we didn't have any understanding of atoms, molecules, or cells, you could be studying, like, Zen or some meditative practice. And maybe you're walking through the woods one day, and you're aware of the sun out there, and you're aware of the Earth down there, and you're aware of all the trees in the forest, and all of a sudden, you can have an actual unity experience. So you don't see the sun anymore. You are one with the sun, and you don't see all the trees. You're one with all the trees, and you don't feel the Earth underneath your feet. You are one with the Earth. But the fact that you're one with the sun or one with the Earth or one with the trees won't give you any understanding of the atom that are fundamental components of each of those. And they won't give you an understanding of the molecules that atoms fundamentally build. And it won't give you any understanding of cells that are in each of the trees, but you don't have any understanding of the cells, and that's what the molecules tend to create. And then, of course, there are multicellular organisms. We have a whole tree of life that includes fish, amphibians, reptiles, mammals, humans. And each one of those gets more complex, and increased complexity can lead to an increased wholeness. If you draw them all together into a unified whole, those wholes become greater the more complex they are. And so none of that is obvious. And yet each one of them can give us a different type of actual wholeness. And when we become aware of this wholeness, we actually experience this unity with, whether it's the planets or the universe or the Earth or all the organic molecules and trees and animals and so on. And this increased feeling of wholeness is a very satisfying because it's a very filling experience. And so that's why, generally, people like to call themselves holistic, because that's another word for whole. And people like to be whole. They don't want to be fragmented and broken and split. They want to be whole and unified. And that's essentially what my writing is about, is how to discover all of these areas of unification, whether that's growing up or waking up or opening up or cleaning up or showing up.

Okay, what was the first time in your life you experienced that sense of wholeness? Tell me the story about that.

Yeah. Yeah. I was in my early teens, maybe 12 or 13. And I was meditating because I'd been doing Zen practice since I was about 10 or 11. And as I sat down and started to concentrate on a topic, and at the time, I was concentrating on a Zen koan called mu. And mu is the Japanese word that simply means no. And it's become one of the most widely prescribed koan exercises for the largest number of Zen students. Because a famous Japanese Zen master by the name of Joshu was asked, does a dog have Buddha nature? And every Buddhist knows that all sentient animals have some degree of consciousness. So the correct answer would be yes. But Joshua famously screamed mu, meaning no. And the Zen koan is, why did he say no? And you. Basically, the way you theoretically do that is you concentrate on mutual until there's no separation between you and mu itself. So you become one with that mental object, or subject and object become one. And that oneness permeates your entire life. And you become one with everything you experience is out there. So you become one with the universe, one with the forest, one with the earth, one with everything that you're experiencing as a separate object. And that's what happened to me. I was meditating on mu. And then when you were 12. I'm sorry, when you were 12, you.

Were meditating on MU?

12 or 13, yeah.

Okay, wow. Okay. So you were into this as a kid?

Yes, I was. And I started meditating, like when I said about 10 or 11. And I would do that because when I found out about Zen, because I read the books of D.T. suzuki, which is the sort of the leading Zen scholar of the time, and he wrote books like three volume books called Essays and Zen Buddhism. And when I first read Essays and Zen Buddhism, I couldn't help but notice this term satori, because that's what sin was all about, was getting a satori. And a satori is a Japanese word that just means unity, experience. And so you have a satori when you feel one with the entire universe or one with everything that's arising. And that's what happened is I continued to meditate on mu, and I'd been meditating on mu for a year or two by then, which is usually it takes a couple years to crack through to the unity of mu. And so I was about normal progress for somebody who's practicing Zen. And I just became one with moo. And that meant I wasn't thinking about moo, I was simply was mooing. And whether I was thinking about moo or not, there was just this unity of moo ness. And I was one with that unity. And that was a profound awakening for me. It was such a strong sense of unity and wholeness and oneness wherever I looked and whatever I sell. And so my separate self sense, the separate can that was aware of all of this stuff going on out there, there wasn't any can left. There was just everything out there, and I was one with all of it. And that's the feeling of satori, or awakening or ultimate oneness. And that was a very, very important, direct experience for me. And it changed my view of religion entirely, because religion used to be something that people would think or something that they would do, like prayer or something like that. And so there was a subject, object differentiation between the subject that believes in religion and the religion itself. But this wasn't like that. I wasn't separate from spirituality. I was one with that spiritual realization. And that oneness just completely turned over everything that I learned about religion up to that point. And, of course, I had also started, because of my meditation practice, I started studying the works of, like, Aldous Huxley and Alan Watts, and people that wrote, wrote about direct spiritual experience or direct spiritual unity or oneness or wholeness. So I was very much aware that those types of oneness experiences were the core of spirituality. Namely, the core, whether you had a Christ consciousness experience of oneness, or God conscious experience of oneness, or unity, awareness, or Zen satori, they all carried this unitary experiential realization. And that was very profound change in my theoretical understanding.

And how does it feel that today people would count, they would add your name to that list of masters with Aldous Huxley and people like that.

I mean, it's terrifically honored by it. And I'm very glad that I have been able to write over 30 books that each of them has been essentially a bestseller. And so I'm glad that I found ways to word this understanding in a way that a lot of people seem to appreciate and they can seem to understand it. And that makes me feel great.

It. It's a gift. It's a gift to know the States. It's another gift to be able to somehow share them. I. I do it with neurofeedback at my. My neurofeedback company. And I. I write books as well.

I've written eight, like Bulletproof Diet.

Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, it's a good book, by the way.

Oh, thank you. It's a huge honor.

Yeah, it's a great book.

Oh, thank you. And the idea is to somehow share some knowledge that people don't have. And that seems like much harder than gaining it. But you've, you've trodden some new paths. And you talked about the first time at a very young age you experienced this. The only other one who comes to mind like that is Sri Sri Ravi Shankar was on the show a while ago, and when he was 3, he memorized the Bhagavad Gita. You know, he beat you by a few years. But I mean, these are unusual things for a 10 or 12 year old or to do or anyone who's still a kid. So you got into it early. Do you think that's because of some past life? You came in semi enlightened or something? Or like what, what's your story about why you did this so young?

I was just born with an intense intellectual curiosity.

Curiosity, okay, that keeps you young.

I just wanted to know. Whenever I study, I come across a new idea and whether it was something like the Perennial Philosophy or Unity Consciousness or Christ Consciousness, I want to know what is that? And so as soon as I started reading DT Suzuki and like essays in Zen Buddhism, he was such a clear, beautiful writer. And when he would talk about satori, he was talking like it was the most precious gift that humankind had. And I just had to know what that was about. And so I started reading all the people that had written about some type of spiritual unity, and that included like Aldous Huxley and DT Suzuki and Alan Watts and Christian Murty and a whole long list. And I stumbled on something called the Perennial Philosophy. And that was the great philosophers of many cultures. And, and there are an enormous number of philosophers that have had these awakening experiences. And the sum total of them was called the Perennial philosophy. Because once you've had this experience, you tend. Everybody that has experience tends to feel similar things. So they no longer feel like they're a separate self sense. They've transcended the separate self sense. So all of Buddhism, for example, is known as a no self religion. And that's because all of them have had this satori like experience. And therefore their separate self has just disappeared and they feel one with everything that's arising. And so I knew theoretically that those type of experiences were there. And once I knew they were there, I of course wanted to have one. And since I started reading DT Suzuki and Aldous Huxley and that when I was quite young, I was 8 or 9 or 10 when I started to read the Perennial Philosophy. So Ananda Kumar, Swami Aldous Huxley and all of these great perennial Philosophical writers, many of them I had fully studied and read. So as I began practicing what they talked about and began using Zen koan. And for people that don't know a Zen koan is a saying of a famous Zen master and they're used as objects of meditation. So if you are assigned a koan, most Renzai Zen masters assign their students a koan and it might be they're usually questions or stories that don't make much rational sense. So a famous then koan is what's the sound of one hand clapping? And you actually meditate on the sound of one hand clapping until you become that sound. And it's a very real experiential realization.

And how long does it normally take when you're meditating on the sound of one hand clapping? Is that another two year experience?

Yeah, about two years.

I've been interested, I've been interested in ways to get to those states faster. I mean I'm using neuroscience and lasers and sounds and lights and all the things. I mean you've got, you are a master of this. Is there a faster way than to just meditate in a cave for two years on the one hand clapping? What's your fastest way?

Yeah, electromagnetic brain stimulation. Yes, definitely the quickest of all the paths out there. And anybody can buy a brain mind machine. They're everywhere. I mean you can get online and just type in brain mind machine and you'll find hundreds of them. And they generally use a type of neuro linguistic programming where if you play something that's like 8 hertz in the right ear and 4 hertz in the left ear, your brain will start to focus on the difference between them.

Right.

So it'll focus on a 4 Hz brain wave. And the 4 Hz is a very deep theta state. So it's a state of. Yet we generally have waking, dreaming and deep formless sleep. And 4 Hz is a deep formless state. And that generally we know from the brain states that we've actually studied of real Zen meditators that the lower megahertz wavelengths such as 2, 3, 4, 5 hertz are where most of the deep dreamless, or so called causal, which is ultimate reality type of experiences tend to occur in those very slow wave states. And when you buy a brain mind machine and just put it on your head and set whatever speeds you want, it'll create these two different wavelengths that you'll hear and your brain will actually focus on the difference between the speed of those wavelengths. So if you have a 10 hertz going in one ear and a 5 hertz going in the other. Your brain will focus on the difference between 5 and 10, which itself is 5 hertz. And that's a fairly low state. And of course, you can set your brain mind machine to 1 MHz or 2 MHz or 3 MHz, and it'll send the correct amount of different wavelengths into your brain. And instead of taking like one or two years to yourself, get into that state, the brain mind machine will put you in that state in less than an hour.

Wow.

So they're very effective. And I recommend them definitely. They're terrific for just somebody who wants to try once a day or something like that. And you will definitely get in those states very quickly.

I started using that kind of machine probably when I was 20 years old, which for me is 30 years ago. And today Brain tap is probably the most common one people have heard of on this show because, because I've interviewed the founder. I've also used the electrical currents flowing between the ears Right. In those same states. In fact, I wrote the bulletproof Diet with electricity running between my ears, putting me in a gamma state, which is also associated with advanced meditation. So, you know, as a. When you're kind of downloading and organizing and going into these altered states of creation to write a really good book, I found that helped a lot. You ever run electricity directly over your brain? You almost must have.

Sure. Well, it produces the desired state very quickly, and that's because it's applying a direct current to your brain.

Yeah.

And that's a very powerful, explicit way to do it. And did you have good luck when you tried it?

I did, but it requires having the right equipment. And we do it sometimes even at 40 years as end. But it's clinical grade gear. I was lucky. I had a piece of equipment that was very programmable. They only made 2,000 of these things. And then the guy making them turned out apparently to. To run a con because he just kept selling them but never shipping them for the next generation of it. So I have one of these units. So I was maybe 15 years ahead of where things are today. So today we have clinical grade ones. And you put the electrodes in the right places and you can, you can profoundly change someone's state. I even have an experimental one where something like 6% of people use it. Experience God. Like, like the. Call it the God helmet. I don't use that one clinically. It's. It's very finicky. And you have to check the space weather before you can use it. But you know, people have really profound things. So I just realizing you can access these, these states with breath, work with electricity. And for me the biggest one has been focusing on open heartedness, gratitude and forgiveness. And that's at the core of what I teach at 40 years of Zen. But to me that all feels heart based. And you talk about the mind, I talk about the mind. Talk with me about the Ken Wilber perspective on what does the mind do versus what the heart does.

Well, one of the most important things when you have a so called heart experience is the lack of duality. I mean it's just inherently a unified state.

Right.

And so Zen will say, although Zen does talk about big mind versus small mind. So Suzuki was famous for his big mind talks. And that all that means is big mind has transcended the small separate self mind. And so big mind means an experience of ultimate unity with the entire universe. That's what a big mind experience is. But it's actually in terms of physiology, the big mind is a direct heart experience. And heart experience is inherently unified. And that's why when you're feeling the heart, you can feel a great deal of closeness with other people. And so that's a heart experience. Because when you feel another person, you're not feeling them as a separate set apart person, you're feeling a state of unity or love with them. And so that's a very heart based experience. And love is the core of the unitary experience. Because that's what you feel when you're in love. You know, even if you love a particular piece of cake, you love it because you love it so much, you're becoming one with the taste of it, one with the flavor of it, one with the whole cake experience, so to speak. So love and unity experience are virtually identical. And so that's why when you drop into the heart and you're feeling this enormous love of everything that exists, you're feeling a oneness with everything that exists. That's why you love it, because you're one with it and you feel that oneness. So you can actually feel that loving unity. And that becomes a very, very powerful experiential realization. And of course it's emphasized in a lot of spiritualities. Like Christianity is known for its loving embrace of the world and other people and so on. And Buddhism and Hinduism don't talk as much of love as they talk of compassion, which is essentially the same thing. Compassion is. You feel a compassionate, caring for others because you're one with them. And so of course you want to take care of them, and you feel a compassion towards them. So love and compassion are two very powerful core experiences of the unity satori experience.

What's changed in the last 10 years? We had all kinds of new understanding of consciousness, FMRI brain scans, eeg, things about the quantum spin of protons in. In the brain. I mean, it's so interesting. So what has caught your eyes the most? Wow. In the last 10 or so years?

Yeah. Well, I think the things that have impressed me in my awareness has been the increase in technology or brain mind machines or brain heart machines. I just was surprised how effective and how quick they can affect brain waves and brain consciousness. And the more people have even small sort of unity experiences, they're going to be aware of any type of theoretical position that gives some sort of explanation to that unitary awareness. And that includes, most famously, quantum mechanics. And I've always been somewhat suspicious of people that write about quantum unity as being the foundation of satori units.

Me too.

They're just. It's not quite there. And they like to quote Schradinger and Heisenberg and de Broglie and Eddington and all of these founding physicists, because the founding physicists all had an understanding of the unitary field of the universe. At least one way to interpret quantum field is as a unitary patterned awareness. And so a lot of people started putting them together with quantum mysticism. And there's just the actual amount of evidence that supports that kind of interpretation of quantum mechanics is very, very thin.

It. It definitely drives me nuts because people, you know, here's my quantum bathtub, and, you know, they just throw it around at the same time. I saw a study in the last year or so that did show that for the first time, they could look at the spin of. Of protons. I'm remembering right in a living brain. And they found that every time the heartbeat, they would change their spin all simultaneously, which is really strong evidence that we are a quantum system. In fact, it's almost undeniable. And then you look at the heart Math Institute work. I used to be an adviser years ago. They'll show you that you walk into a stall with a horse, the horse's heart rate variability will change to match yours, which is why tweakers can't ride horses. They throw you off because you're, You're. You're unstable. Now, is it a magnetic field or is it a quantum field or an information field? No one's actually measured that. Right. Is it a decent supposition that when you Have a chance, an experience of oneness, that you become more quantum, entangled and resonating with reality or other people or things around you. And that that's a communication mechanism for collective consciousness? I can't say that it is that way. I think there's more evidence than there used to be, but we don't know for sure. Would you agree with that, or would you just still be more skeptical?

That's what I mean when I say I'm a bit skeptical is many theorists talk about this as if there's hard evidence that this is the fact. Now, there's hard evidence that quantum fields exist. And there's hard evidence that unitary states of consciousness exist. But there's very little actual evidence that quantum or that unity consciousness has a quantum state foundation. Because, like you say, hardly anybody's even measured what's going on in those states. And while there is some more inferential types of awareness about this stuff, there's nothing. There ain't much of it, as you yourself have pointed out. Always. It's bothered me.

Yeah, it. It's always bothered me too. And I. I've had a few people come on the show with products that they make quantum claims. And the products provably work, right? So I can't say they work via quantum, but that's how they think they work. And they might work by quantum, but as long as they work, I'm okay with it. Because sometimes you don't. You know, we might not know why walking works. We just think we know. But there could be a whole magical thing we haven't figured out yet. So it's always a theory, right?

I know that unity states of consciousness exist. There's an enormous amount of evidence that those are real. They exist. Thousands of people worldwide have had these direct experiential realizations. And entire movements are based on the discovery of these. The entire Zen and entire Buddhist movement. And in fact, mystical religions around the world all depend on. And they have practices that produce unity consciousness. And there's just no questioning the reality of that. But the number of people that have measured the actual state and come up with some sort of quantum field, that's pretty rare.

We suck at measuring quantum fields is the problem. And what I find is that when people are having those kind of experiences, I can measure the electricity coming off the brain. And I can use that as a guide to help the next person get into the state more quickly. That's an electrical field. It's a pattern of electron signaling in the brain that probably has a quantum Signature that I can't measure yet. Right. I imagine in the next 15 or so years we'll actually have quantum neurofeedback where we'll be able to measure the quantum spin in your brain. You'll be able to sit there and think of that image or whatever you do that changes the spin. And all of a sudden, you know, you'll be walking with angels or something, I have no idea. But we'll probably get there with our imaging so you could provide feedback on it. But we just, we're not that close and neuralink isn't going to get us there. Speaking of neuralink.

And I think that that will happen and I think that we will get almost computer screens out of the state of our brain. And so we can see when we're getting closer to a unity state.

We have that today electrically but not quantumly.

Right, Right.

Have you ever done a quantified eeg, a QEEG on your brain to see what your brain's doing in there?

Done several different electrical like measurements. And one that was really interesting is I had a small version of an EEG machine and I connected it to my brain and it took me about two hours to put the machine together. And when I finally got it together and turned it on, what came up was an incredibly deep and profound theta state because I had been concentrating so intensely for two hours. And so my brain had already worked itself down into a very deep concentrative, low wave like state. And I could just see it on the screen. It was just alarming to me because I thought, oh, I've got to work to get into this state. But I had been working for two hours in a meditative like state of awareness. And so I've had several of those types of experiences. And one of the theories that has been suggested to me is that when you're in a deep sort of unity state, you're in some sort of deep theta state, essentially.

That's what my research also leads to. You learned how to get there naturally kind of all by yourself when you were young.

Yeah. And that takes several years of practicing to get into that deep meditative state.

It's, I want to point out for listeners before you continue on that thought, there is a type of theta state where you're dreamy, like, like you were traumatized, you're caught in daydreams, you can't focus, you can't get things done in the world. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about an intentional theta state where it's more downloading information, access to akashic records, an inner knowingness. Am I reading your state right on that?

That's generally known as the fate of formless state because formless means no thought, no images, no pictorial thinking going on. It's an actual formless state of emptiness. And that is a very profound state they get in. But you're right, it's not a dream type of state. It's frequently called a deep dreamless state. Right, because there's no dream or anything, any thought process going on.

I think Joe Dispenza, who's also been on the show, calls that nothingness. You step into nothingness. I call it the unmanifest at 40 years then. But it's a weird state where, yeah, it's like dark but there's nothing in it and you can make something out of it. But it's very hard to use words to describe it. And I like the way you're describing it. That kind of a dreamless dream state.

Let's actually call it shunyata, which is a Sanskrit word that means emptiness. And the first great founder of Mahayana Buddhism, which is the second major form of Buddhism after its beginning, our founding form, which is generally called hinayana. And hinayana just means small boat and Mahayana means big boat. So the Mahayana people chose the big boat term to refer to their process, and they used the little boat term to refer to the original type of meditation. But both of them result in a state called shunyata, which Nagarshana introduced. He was the second major founder of Buddhism. And Nagarjuna gave very explicit, detailed instructions on what that state of emptiness was and how you got there. And he had a whole philosophy based on it which was if you take any definition you want for ultimate reality, like its radical formlessness, or it's a God consciousness, or it's a unity consciousness. Nagarjuna took dozens of those types of descriptions. And he showed, if you want to say that God is a theistic being, for example, Nagarshana, because he was based on an absolutely formless emptiness belief, he would show that ultimate reality can neither be described as theistic or non theistic, or both or neither. And those four emptinesses constitute the overall emptiness of the world. And so you cannot say it's God, or you can't say it's not God, or you can't say it's both, or you can't say it's neither. Nagarshana would shoot all of those down and very effectively, I mean, very logically, in that sense, and that's what he was doing, was giving an outlet for all forms of mystical realization because all of them are formless or exposed, an emptiness. And those are often called godless or trans God or godhead or other terms that try to get those points across. But Nagarshana wouldn't allow even those types because he would show that it's neither God nor not God nor both nor neither. So that pretty much eliminates all your possibilities that you can state.

Sounds kind of quantum. Like. Well, it's not. Yes. It's not. No, it's sort of, kind of in the middle, but not really there either. And like every time you look, it moves until you end up going into whatever that space is where every time you look at moves and eventually you're looking and it moves. It doesn't matter.

And there were some founding quantum physicists, most notably Erring Schrodinger, who wrote entire books. He once he had this sort of. He was instrumental with Heisenberg in formulating the quantum principles. And he particularly showed like. Heisenberg used a very complex S matrix to indicate how to. To describe ultimate reality. And Schrodinger showed it could be reduced to a simple. What's now called a Schrodinger wave. It's a simple wave function. And once he got onto that, he eventually of course, stumbled into the Upanishads. And he would use massive numbers of direct quotes from the Upanishads to describe his version of what the Schrodinger wave equation demonstrates. Because what it demonstrated was an absolute nothingness. And that was known as shunyata by the Upanishad.

It. It's very interesting. Some of the early quantum physicists, even Edward Teller, you know, the guy who built the bomb, he quoted the Bhagavad Gita when they set off the first form. Like these guys were all studying esoteric Indian stuff while doing quantum physics. And it, it's fascinating and that you also studied that and you studied quantum physics as a part of getting into integral theory.

Yeah.

I have to ask you this as an interviewer. I already know, I think, what integral theory is. I've read some of your books. But if I were to try to describe it to someone, I would probably butcher it because it's one of those things where every time you try to explain it, you missed it. Almost like our whole conversation here.

How do you.

When someone in an elevator walks up and says, huh? What's integral theory? Explain to me like I know nothing.

Well, I would say it's a philosophical way or a particular way of thinking that shows how all forms of mere thinking don't really work. And they can be demonstrated to not really work. But another way to say that is that all forms of thinking take a different perspective on the same thing. So if we include all forms of philosophy, we get something that's called the perennial philosophy because it refers, it unifies all of our different perspectives into one wholeness. So we have a subject in singular form and we have a subject in pluralistic form. So when we talk about your state of consciousness or my state of consciousness, that's a first person singular approach to consciousness. But we have second person and third person perspectives, and we even have different pronouns with I, we, us, ours, they, them, he, she, it. And those major perspectives constitute what I call the four quadrants, because there are four of those major views. So the upper left quadrant views a first person singular. So it's pronouns like I, me, mine, and so on. And then you can take that individual singular perspective, which I call the upper left quadrant, and you can see it in its plural form. And then the plural of I is we, and that includes us and ours and things like that. And those are first person plural. So they're what I call the lower left quadrant. So the upper left quadrant would refer to studies like psychology, the individual study of an individual consciousness. And the lower left quadrant studies things like societies or cultures or group collective forms of consciousness and awareness. And that includes a you awareness, so that's the second person, you, thou, don, and so on are all second person or plural perspectives. And then there's a third person which refers to the upper left and upper right quadrants. So they include things like he or her or it. And in the lower right refers to third person collectives. So that includes something like systems theory and includes its or the plural form of a singular it, which is the upper right quadrant. And so those include things like individual quarks, individual atoms, individual molecules, individual cells. Those are all looking at something from an objective perspective. Either a singular, like the upper left is a singular I or a plural, which is the lower right. Like the lower left is a plural I, so it's a we or an us or so on. And the lower right is an objective plural, so it's a they or them or an its rts. And what's interesting about those four perspectives is that we already have pronouns for each of them. So we develop those pronouns over thousands of years by referring to what they actually represented. So there was an I, a me, and a mine, because there's actually an individual state of consciousness. And there was a we, an us, an ours, because there actually were plural odds. So there was an actual us or ours. And then we could also look at any one of those from an objective perspective. So when we look at an individual whole on a whole, on is a whole that's a part of another whole. And everything in the universe is made of holons. That's a basic tenet of integral theory. So I got that tenet from Arthur Kessler, who, in the Ghost in the Machine wrote about what he called a holon. And all holons exist as a whole. That's a part of a yet larger whole. And so quarks are whole lawns for atoms. Atoms are whole lawns of molecules. Molecules are whole ons of individual organisms. And the plural of an individual organism is a species, a collective form of consciousness. And so we have these I, we, it and its pronouns because over the millennia, we develop them to represent real things in the real world. That's why we had actual words for them. That's why we have an I and a we and a he and a her and an it and an it's because those things really exist. And so one of the ways that we talk about integral theory is we talk about including all of our perspectives on reality. And since there are major philosophical schools, you can demonstrate that each of those schools relies on a particular quadrant. So empiricism generally relies on individual I empirical experiences. And hermeneutics is the art and science of interpretation. And interpretation is a group of symbols that we use to interpret many different collectives. And that's the lower left quadrant. And then we have individual objective realities, which particularly includes most forms of science and their methodologies. So science particularly focuses not so much on an eye consciousness, although there are forms of psychology that do that. But it also depicts an eye as seen from an objective stance. And that's things like an atom or molecule or an individual cell, an individual organism or multiple cells and multiple organisms. And those are the upper right and the lower right. So an individual it and a plural it. And there are types of methodologies that have been created that give access to each one. Four quadrants. So we have empiricism, hermeneutics, art, and systems theory, for example. And those are very real methodologies that you can use to gain access to one of those realities. And all of them are very real.

How would I use it? Would I. So let's say that I'm working on studying, say, hypnotism. Or, or I'm just picking or accupunch, something like that. I would then sit down with that. I would take integral theory and I would say, what perspectives of integral theory from all four quadrants can I use to understand what I'm focusing on and then get a deeper and more connected understanding of it and how it fits into the whole.

That's right, because once you have like four quadrants and you have different fundamental particles making up each quadrant, then you have access to four fundamental types of realities. And all of those are real. And you can use their methodologies to give you access to them. So when you study hypnosis, for example, you can study it from the upper left quadrant, or you can study it from a so called first person perspective. And then you'll try to figure out what is the person directly experiencing when they're in the hypnotic state. And that will be a very real experience. And so that's your I state of consciousness that's having an hypnotic experience. But you can also look at that I state from the outside in an objective fashion, and that will give you the upper right or an it state. So from the objective viewpoint, hypnosis is an electrical brain wave, the particular type of brain wave. And a brain wave is an objective reality. It's not particularly subjective, except if you experience it, it's experienced as a subjective first person experience. And so you'd call it an I state. But when you're just studying it as an exterior event, it's an object and you see it as an object. So maybe you actually measure the brain waves, the electrical brain waves that are producing that state. And each of those, the I state and the is state have plural forms. We also have like cultural consciousness and where we have experiences of what sometimes called a social organism or a collective group. And then you can look at those in an objective fashion as well. And you have not only the subjective state, you have an actual objective event. And we often call those they or them or its experiences. And that's what happens when we look at an individual brainwave in a large number of people. And so we'll get a social objective view. So there are important things that you learn about hypnosis, whether you're looking at a group hypnosis or an individual hub hypnosis, or a subjective hypnosis or an objective hypnosis.

It takes, I'd say, many hours of study to get a full understanding of how to use integral theory. And, and for listeners, I was looking at what's the best example. So when you Talk about the eye. It's a sensation I'm feeling irritable or an emotion. You look at the it, you're saying, well, it's a limbic system or a reptilian brain system or something, something. And when you talk about we, it's myths and magic and rational things like that you're talking about. It's, it's galaxies and planets all the way to communities and groups. And it, it is mind bending to study integral theory. I'm not an expert on it, but I, I've certainly read your books. It's, it's a bit of a mind warping experience to go deep with Ken Wilber, even just to talk with you, right? And so listeners, if you've never read any of Ken's books, his, his newest book, book is going to be worth your time. What I find is that when, when you're, you're learning from your elders, people have more wisdom than you do. I'm, I can do what I do because in my, my mid-20s when my brain was trashed, I hung out with people in their 80s who were doing anti aging before it was acknowledged to be possible. And they taught me what I know. And so I got this huge leg up and I always want to talk with masters. And the later the book in your 30 books, the more distilled wisdom will be in it because. And that's why it's easier for you to write books, because you have more wisdom, right? Because you can see more clearly. And so you want to read the later books by Ken Wilber. And if you're a biohacker and you're completely unaware of Ken Wilber, look, personal development is integral to biohacking because once you get yourselves working right, they themselves have a collective consciousness. Now we're getting into the it. It of biohacking, right? And then you get up to the it, which is probably looking at mitochondria and things like that. And those generate the eye, at least in my understanding of it. So you need to read at least one Ken Wilber book in order to call yourself a biohacker, I would say, because you cannot separate the body from the mind from the spirit. And you were like, well, of course you can't. So I spent, actually you spent 60 years figure out how to put all that stuff together and you're still going strong, which I find impressive. I gotta ask you though, after 60 years of studying consciousness, are we living in a simulation?

KEN WILBER well, it's certainly we're living in a type of experience that lends itself to that type of description. So you'll often hear people that are very familiar with computers say, well, we're just, this is all a simulation. We're all living in a computerized, externalized worldview. And the only reason they can get away with that is they're describing one of the quadrants. And to the extent that we look at the objective world, we are, there is a very real perspective from which that objective world is a projection of our own consciousness. It's a third person experiential reality. And all these objects are real and they're there and they're external to us. And we can trace their origins back to subjective experiences as well. So again, the four quadrants are there from the big bang all the way to stages of evolution. And that's what each one of my books sort of takes. A different version of the universe and explains how all four of those perspectives, first person, second person, third person, have a reality. And they're very real realities.

Are you familiar with, with Donald Hoffman's work on the user interface theory of reality?

No, but it sounds familiar.

You've got to read his book on this. It'll, I don't want it to blow your mind because your mind's already been blown since you were a kid head, but it'll, it'll, it'll plug in. And in. His theory, if I numb it down, is that we evolved to create a user interface on reality because.

Right.

Unless we're in the wholeness state you talk about, you know, I'm seeing you on my screen, but I'm not seeing the individual electrons that are transmitted over Google fiber optics and all that stuff. So I'm, I'm seeing a picture of you inside my brain that isn't you. And so you could argue that we're living in a simulation, but your body and your brain generate the simulation of what's really going on out there.

That's right. Okay, well, and, but you can still take that perspective of an objective view. And when he's describing the user interface, that's the reality he's describing. He's describing a third person reality looked at through a third person perspective.

Right.

So he's giving you a third person description of this third person reality. And that third person reality is in a sense a projection of our subjective brain state because we can take that first person perspective of it and then we can look at that first person itself from a first person perspective or a third person. We can look at it from a subjective perspective and we can Also look at it from an objective perspective. And when we introspect, what we're doing is taking our subjective experience and looking at it objectively. So we're actually looking in and seeing our subjective states. And those all appear as objects. So again, all the perspectives we can take have a foundation in one of the four quadrants. And they're all very real realities, which is why we can take these very real perspectives of them.

So I believe that every time you read a good book, whether it's a good science fiction book or a Ken Wilber book, it gives you a new user interface to reality and a new way of seeing reality. So the more books you read, the more user interfaces you can switch between. And when you go deep with integral theory, that is kind of like a master switch to help you flip between ways of seeing things instead of seeing them only through an emotional or an eye perspective and to be able to see them all simultaneously. Now, next time I'm in demonstration, if I bring my qeeg machine, would you be up for letting me look at your brain waves? So it takes about an hour and there's no, not even any glue to mess up your hair. It's a 3D printed cap. Most of the great masters, especially spiritual guru types that I've managed to, to get brain scans from, most of them actually you can't get a brain scan when they go into the really deep states. The equipment just gives you static. It's like you go somewhere where the equipment can't see you anymore and it drives me crazy. Do you do that?

Yeah. Well, one sort of immediate experience that comes to mind is I use this small computerized brain, mind machine and I would get myself into different states of consciousness. And one of the few states that I could reliably both get in and get a reading from was the witness state. And for those who aren't familiar with Vedanta or Buddhism, the witness state is often called the fourth state of consciousness because it's the fourth. It's just very unimaginatively called the fourth state because it's actually the fourth state. The first state is waking, then the second state is dreaming. The third state is deep, deep, formless, dreamless state. And the fourth state is the ever present witness that's looking at each of those states. So if you just right now look within and just give a sense of yourself looking at your small self, what's doing the looking is the witness. The witness is the big self, capital S or it's called the turia, which is the Sanskrit for fourth. Because it's the fourth state after the first three states that Vedanta recognizes. And whenever I would get in to that witness state and what I soon found is that I was almost always in the witness state because it would show up as an ever present baseline on the computer screen that was always functioning no matter if I was in first person. If I was in the first person state, I'd see like alpha or beta waves. I see a lot of those. And then I see this very bottom, very low level theta state which was like first or second wave phenomena. It was a very, very deep theta state. And then if I switch to a second person state, I just see the first person would disappear and there wouldn't be any third person. There'd just be a second person state of consciousness which was a beta state and not an alpha state. Alpha was first person. But I see the second person banned. And then I still see that very basic witnessing stance. It was still there. And the same thing when I would get into like a third person sort of specifically formless state. I was witnessing that formless state. So there'd be a third person state and then there'd still be that same bottom witnessing band. And I just found that I was almost always. Because I had practiced meditation and witnessing so long that it was just kind of an ever present state that was conscious. And that always surprised me. And I was very proud of it. Which is sort of counter the whole state itself. You're not supposed to feel even egoic sensation like pride. So I wasn't too happy with that.

Here's a Zen Cohen that, that I invented. At least I think it's a Zen Cohen and it's one of my favorites because it messes with my brain all the time. But your ego is smaller than my ego.

Yeah.

Which of course makes your ego go up, which then makes it not smaller. And it's like, no.

Right. Oops.

That leads to the idea.

And further. I'm proud of that fact.

Exactly. And it takes you out of state of small ego. So how do you deal with spiritual ego? It seems like that's the hardest one to deal with. And it's taking down great masters and gurus. So what's your personal practice? To not be like, I am the great Ken Wilber. Everyone look at me would take you out of your witnessing state.

Yeah. That is a difficult one. And I found of all my various religious practices and I've done practices from virtually every major form of spirituality. So I've done Vedanta and all Three types of Buddhist meditation and Christian mystical tradition and Jewish Kabbalah tradition. And I mean, I just had an enormous experiential revelation of those. And, and the one that I found handles this problem the best is Zen. And I mean, it's just sort of a cliche to say that because Zen is such a powerful inducer of shunyata or emptiness experience, a nothingness experience, an ultimate turiya or even turiyatida, which is in, in most of the mystical traditions of the east, there are five major states of consciousness. The first, second and third are referred to as waking, dreaming and deep formless sleep. And then the fourth is turiya, or the pure ever present witness or awareness itself. And then the fifth is called turiya tita, which is a Sanskrit term that simply means beyond. So it's called the fifth state because it's beyond the fourth state. And the experience there is that you are deeply aware of the fact that you are aware. So it's also described as a great sense you're witnessing because you have close contact with the ever present awareness of the witness, but you're also witnessing the witness. And so that in a sense wipes out any separate subjective feeling because the moment you're a big subject aware of that small subject, that small subject tends to just go away.

It seems like it's generating an infinite loop in the brain because you witness witness, then you witness your witness of your witness, and eventually your brain is just witnessing what's. And, and eventually you go into this state of oneness because you realize nothing's going on.

And that's Right.

Yeah. Okay, so.

So I'm fall out of the witness itself, right? Because you're witnessing the witness of the witness of the oh, what, I forgot. And it's just gone, right?

And then you launch into that and it, it feels like for me, the, the first, or at least the, the easiest way to get to the first step is any form of biofeedback back. And it can be just a temperature sensor on your finger or stress response or heart rate variability, or my favorite obviously is neurofeedback. But even blood flow training in the brain, all of those things, that's the first level when it's like, oh, look like I'm watching myself, watch myself. And then that's the first one. And then you go, well, what part of me is watching me watch this? And that can be the launch pad to get into this, this magical state. Talk to me about drugs. I mean, you, you've hung out with all of the great masters of psychedelics. And. And now they're coming into it on trend again and maybe being a little bit more legal. What's your experience with psychedelics and consciousness?

Because I went to that period where I first got introduced to the perennial philosophy thinkers, a fair number of the modern perennial philosophy thinkers. Aldous Huxley, Alan Watts, people like that had taken, not only taken drugs, at least mescaline, but often psilocybin and an lsd. But they had written books about the entire experience. And they've also had separate mystical experiences.

Yeah.

So they would compare the two and what I found is that almost all of them felt deeply that when they had a very profound psychedelic experience, it was indistinguishable from the deep mystical experiences that they had had even when they weren't doing drugs. Correct. So it was very believable that their psychedelic experience was very close to a deep mystical experience. But all of them would, in a sense, worn away from psychedelics because they would simply say, well, it's too much of a shortcut and it cuts out, it frequently cuts out too much of the full mystical state. So I always had both a profound respect for the psychedelic experience because it could induce types of mystical, authentic mystical experiences. But I was always sort of shy of getting really into them because of the warnings that these great writers would almost always give you.

Yeah.

And they would say, no, meditate, that's what you have to do. I started out and I first tried LSD and I had some very deep shadow stuff come up, which often happens in lsd. And if you just have the shadow stuff, it's called a bad trip because it's just a full fledged experience of your shadow. And that is a bad experience. And so I had some bad parts of the LSD experience, but I'd always come out of them and get the good stuff. So I only did like three or four trips on LSD because I felt that that was enough and I didn't want to get into where it was detracting or thwarting my mystical experience.

Thank you for, for sharing that. And one of my concerns is that psychedelic therapy has great value and I've had the mystical experiences without the drugs before I ever tried a psychedelic, actually. I tried mushrooms in my 20s one time. But it, it's one of those things where if you're relying on it and you know, there, there's a guy out there with a podcast is, oh, I've done a hundred ayahuasca ceremonies. I'm like, well, he's not in training to be a shaman in the jungle. At some point it's gotta be the poor guy, it's not working. Right, right.

So that's right.

And, and then you have Stan Grof and I've been honored to actually co host a breath work session. Stan Grof used LSD in his, in his licensed psychiatry practice and replaced it with meditation and breath work. Because you go to the same places and, and I, I do that. I go to those places with electrodes on my head. You don't need the drugs. Drugs, but maybe using the drugs once so you know the state is of value. But relying on them, it seems like too much of a shortcut. And I'm like the king of shortcuts. I, I'm biohacking. Like get it done faster. Yeah, I don't know.

Yeah. Well, I'm good friends with Stan Grof and I really appreciated his work. Early LSD work, very good. And it not only was it just really profound research and almost always produced exactly the great chain of being. So you went from really broken egoic, fragmented experience to very real unitary, unified spiritual oneness. And Stan was always alerted by the LSD experience itself to those fairies deep unity experiences. I want to just mention that I however, had a great deal of hope and promise for the so called psychedelic revolution. And mostly for the reason you said even if you can take one good dose of LSD and have a unity experience, at least you know it's there.

Right.

And is real. And I had, that was my hope for the psychedelic revolution. Even though I myself didn't continue doing that kind of drug. I'd had like one or two experiences of mescaline and a few experiences of psilocybin and those all gave very unique types of mystical experiences, genuine mystical experiences. But I was hoping that LSD in particular, because it was such a powerful psychedelic, that it would induce a sort of mystical revolution in America. And oddly what seemed to happen instead is people would take it and many of them would have a profound mystical experience. But they'd either fall into one or two of two different paths, neither of which were very helpful. One was they just take it like once a month, forever. So they would get up to the hundred times I've had the experience and at that point he's just wiping out. It's just becoming much too almost symbolic. It just lives its reality and its real function. And the other way is that many people just stopped taking it entirely. And so we had this sort of two different branches. One, people which were overusing it and another set of people which were under using it, and neither one produced the middle of the road I take in. It may be two or three times a year, and I have profound experiences, and then I use those in my meditation practice to further it. And that just didn't seem to happen. And I found lots of people that went one extreme or the other, but very few people that seem to balance out their use of psychedelics to prolong and increase their meditative experience. That was always very disappointing to me.

It. It's kind of like. Like when you wake up from a dream, you forget the dream until you tell someone, write it down. And I feel like there's a big challenge with integration after a psychedelic experience because if you write down and you were to record everything during that and then study that in your meditation for a few months, you're going to get all the value. But if you just keep taking it and you forget 90% of it, it's not like your ego is there listening. See, I think it strengthens the ego to take drugs over and over and over unless you do the integration. So your conscious brain gets it and your ego gets it. So you're at par with your ego. Because we all know people who've done way too much.

Yeah.

Or acid or something. And something's not right. And you can feel it. Right.

And.

And I also know people who've done it maybe 500 times who are profoundly enlightened and just happy people. Not that they don't have their little. Their scars or whatever, but. But they're the exception, not the rule, right?

Yeah, exactly. And then there seemed to be a sort of resurgence of psychedelics when ayahuasca came along, because I talked to an enormous number of people that swore by their ayahuasca trip, and they had taken it two or three or five or ten times, and they were having some very real and very profound mystical type of experiences.

I. I kind of feel a little guilty about that. In the. In 1999, I went to Peru and I sought out ayahuasca because I've done extensive reading like you. And I went down there and there was no tourism industry for this. And I. Yeah. And I asked him and they looked at me, they said, you're white, you won't like it. And I said, well, I know that I'm white, but I've done my research. I've read dmt, the spirit molecule. I even know one of the guys in the study. So I was introduced to the right shaman and I had a ceremony I didn't do it again for almost 20 years. Right. But I talked about it a lot in the early days of biohacking in 2011, 2012, just as like one of the paths to consciousness. And, and there are certainly others who talk about ayahuasca. I'm not alone but in, in the world of biohacking, I started biohacking. So I know that that helped to bring it out there. And I think there are predators using ayahuasca, especially on billionaires, to try and kind of co opt their consciousness. And like it's not that is it's it, it's with. It has risks. Even meditation has meaningful risks. Like Buddhist meditation in Buddhist literature can drive you crazy. Especially fast Buddhism. Right. So can Aya. So I appreciate your perspective on, you know. Right. Use of these very powerful substances. So thank you Ken. I think you're a leading voice and people need to hear that they're not good, they're not bad, they're somewhere in the middle. Which is funny because you teach that nothing is all good or all evil, that everything is on a slider switch. Right. Is that part of non duality? Do you believe in non duality? Talk to me about that.

Yeah, I think non duality is a very good attempt at trying to state Sunyata or it's neither God nor not God nor both nor neither. It's a psychedelic. No, it's. You can't say it is or isn't or spoke or neither. It's just emptiness, period. And so that, So I think Shunyata, particularly in the hands of somebody like Nagarjuna, who sort of introduced it as a major conceptual formulation of Buddhism, which is to say it's neither conceptual nor not conceptual nor both nor neither. And he was always repeating those so called four inexpressibles or the four negations of reality, although he would negate that and say, no, you can't describe it as four negations either. It's not that or not that or both or neither of that. So in his hands it always left you in a state, something like sunyata, something like emptiness, because you just even blasted the notion of emptiness out of your mind because it can either be called emptiness or not emptiness or both or neither. And that sort of wipes it out entirely. And so you could come away with some pretty good experiential experiences from Nagarjuna. And I think that's why he is sort of single handedly credited with founding the entire second major movement of Buddhism. He was the original Gautama Buddha, he was just a brilliant theoretician and a brilliant sunyata realizer or realization that it's neither a nor not a, nor both nor neither. And so I believe in Sinatra or theory of non duality. And by non duality, Nakarshana means it. It's neither dualistic or not dualistic, or both or neither. So he's just really getting rid of all forms of duality. Although he would deny that that's what he's doing, but that was in effect what he was doing. And your experience of satori or awakening or enlightenment is a feeling of non duality to the extent it can be spoken of at all. Because you feel that your subject is one with every object it's aware of. And that way your separate subject disappears and separate objects disappear. And everything that's in your awareness right now, this computer screen, this table, the chair you're sitting in, your own body, all of those are objects and they all disappear as something separate from you. And your whole subjective awareness just becomes one with everything you're aware of. And that's a non dual experience. Although it's neither non dual nor not non dual nor both. So as long as you sort of keep the real shunyata in mind, I think non duality is a very good approach to this ultimate reality.

Wow, Ken, you are, and I mean it in your introduction, a living legend. You spent more time than almost anyone alive working on this. It's 60 years legitimately, which just gives you an ability to communicate it in a, in such a beautiful way. And it is a mind bending thing. I mean, it bends everyone's mind, including yours, as far as like a dog. You're still getting on top of it.

Yeah.

And, and I'm, I'm so grateful that you're accelerating your, your capturing and structuring of knowledge by writing more books more quickly and getting this level of mastery that almost no humans will ever do. So I'm, I'm really excited to read Finding Radical Wholeness. I hope I get an advanced copy. And I know it comes out in April, so for listeners, I want to just remind you, pick any of Ken Wilber's books to read. Now, Ken, what is the number one first book people should read if they want to get into your work?

Well, I actually think the one that I've just finished writing is probably the best overall summary of the integral approach.

It's not out.

Yeah. And the reason is what you've already described that sort of each year as I use whatever my present theory Is to look back at the previous theories. I sort of transcend and include everything I've done. So each successive work gets sort of more inclusive in terms of my explanation. So finding ultimate wholeness, it goes through five major different types of wholeness. So it goes through waking up, which is an experience of individuality, Finite individuals with infinite reality, or the ultimate unity experience. And then there's growing up. And of course, that infinite unity awareness is an expansive form of wholeness because it's basically a oneness of the entire universe. And then we have growing up. And growing up is generally. Well, it was introduced this by one of America's greatest psychologists. Not many people know his name, but his name was James Mark Baldwin. And he wrote around 1900s-1912, 1920. And he was very good friends with William James at Harvard. And of course, William James was writing books on states of consciousness. So William James spoke books like the Variety of Religious Experience. And he went through almost every great mystic in history and showed how they all had this similar ultimate unity experience. And so he was writing about altered states of consciousness. And what James Mark Baldwin was writing about was altered structures of consciousness. And a structure of consciousness is different from a state of consciousness, Because a state of consciousness is a direct first person experience. So if you have a waking state experience of being one with the entire universe, you know, I mean, I'm one with it on directly aware of that oneness. But stages of growing up are the actual stages that each and every one of us goes through as we grow through our multiple intelligences. So Piaget, for example, would describe them as six or seven major stages of development. And we start out with a type of natural intelligence of which PI DSR outlines six stages. And even a cat gets to stage number four of those six stages. Because all of these stages that we go through are evolutionary stages that we went through as we evolved through the entire chain of being. So the full evolutionary stages include quarks to atoms, to molecules, to single cells, to multiple cellular organisms, to the entire tree of life. From fish to amphibians, to reptiles to mammals to humans. And those are all experienced in their sensori motor form at these early six major stages, of which all animals go through some version. They go so far up those six stages, like I say, a cat reaches stage four and an ape reaches stage five, or even stage six on occasion. And then it goes through a stage that he called pre operational. And this is because it's an early cognitive stage that can't actually operate on reality the way we do. Like when we're thinking about something, we're actually operating on that thing we're thinking about. So it's a mental operation, but we operate on our thoughts. But pre operational is before we do that. So in pre operational, we still haven't differentiated subject and object very well. And that's a stage that's also called the magical stage of development, because in magic, because subject and object are not well differentiated. If you change the subject, you'll magically change the object. And that's what all magic does. It manipulates the thought of an object, and that actually magically changes the object. It's sometimes called word magic. So that's a magical stage of development. And we go through that, and then we get to what Piaget called concrete operational thinking. And that is also called a mythic stage of development. And the difference between magic and mythic is that in magic, which happens from ages 2 to 4 or 5, we actually think that we can magically change things. So young children have what's called word magic, where they think that they can operate on and change reality and all of that. And that's the pre operational stage. When we get to concrete or mythic thinking, we can no longer do magic, but some supernatural God or goddess can perform magic. So Zeus can perform magic, and Yahweh God can perform magic. And if we know how to correctly pray to go, we can convince him to produce magic on our behalf. So we think God can actually get us the new car, or God can actually buy us something, or goddess can make the crops grow. And so our early mythic forebears would often do rites of sacrifice to the goddess, and those rights would induce the goddess to make our crops grow, or some sort of mythic being that could perform magic. And so that runs in human beings from around age 6 or 7 all the way to around age 11 or 12. And at that age 11, 12, 13, we shift to a stage called formal operational thinking. And that's thought that can operate not on the objective world, but thought that operates on thought. So we get the emergence of logic and mathematics and highly advanced thought forms like that. And that produces multiple universal systems. So we have chemistry, biology, geology, and so on. And often those are so intense and experienced that they kind of fly apart. So it becomes very hard for us to see how they're unified into one overall system. But if we keep cognitively growing and we grow to the next stage, which is often called polymorphism or pluralism, because it unifies all of these different pluralistic systems. So you'll have a unity of biology and chemistry, often called biochemistry, or we'll have a unity of geology and chemistry. So we have geochemistry. And so that's actually very unified forms of thinking. And thought can operate on thought to produce these very unified or global systems. And then if we go even further, it's usually called an integral stage, because that takes any remaining fragmentations that exist in our thought and unifies all of them. It integrates all of our thought systems into a single unified integrated system. And that's often what systems theory, for example, operates from. So these are all important stages of our own growth process. And each stage is more inclusive. It transcends like all stages we're aware of, it transcends the previous stage, or it goes beyond. It can do something that the previous stage couldn't. Like concrete operational can operate on the external world, and pre operational thinking can't do that. And formal operational thinking can operate on concrete operational thinking and therefore produce unified systems, which concrete operational thinking can't do. So that's another type of wholeness, is the wholeness that we get from growing up. And each of us goes through the same types of stages. If we continue to grow, some people stop growth at an earlier stage. So some people stop growing at concrete operational or mythic thinking. Some people stop at formal. Many people stop at formal operational thinking. About 50% of people make it to a formal operational capacity, so they can do mathematics and logic and stuff like that. And then fewer people get to the pluralistic stage, which integrates those previous formal operational stages. And only about 5% of the population makes it to integral stages, which fully unifies all forms of thinking. And therefore, if you're thinking about different schools of philosophy, for example, example, integral thinking can integrate virtually every major school of philosophy. And so that's waking up and growing up. And then there's something we call opening up, which everybody has upwards of around. Psychologists differ, but around 12 multiple intelligences. So we have cognitive intelligence, which is our typical cognitive thinking as it goes through its various cognitive stages of development, pre operational, concrete, operational, formal operational, pluralistic and integral. And each one of those gets bigger or more inclusive until you get to the integral stage, which is all inclusive. And each one of those stages transcends and includes the previous state. So when you get the concrete operational, you're transcending a merely pre operational thinking, which is just a string of symbols or symbolic words, but it has access to all of those words, but it can operate on them and operate on the world around it in a way that pre operational thinking can't do. It's just a magical type of thinking. And informal operational thinking is thought operating on thought. And that includes thought operating on concrete operational thinking, which is the stage that preceded formal operational thinking. And then pluralistic can include all of the different forms of formal operational thinking. And integral can include all of the pluralistic gives a complete wholeness. So that's another major form of growth and wholeness. And then we have what we call cleaning up intelligence. And that's usually associated with the names of like Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung. And what happens according to all of the major cleaning up theorists, including both Freud and Jung, is that we all have a separate individual self sense. We all have an ego or a separate self. And that ego can itself be fragmented or split off. So we can have a Persona and it splits off a portion of itself called our shadow and the shadow. All the shadow elements gather in the so called unconscious. And we get it back by reidentifying with what is really part of our own thought system. And if we keep it split off, that separate thought shadow that we have is often projected onto other people. So if I might be attracted to a woman and have a lot of lust for her, but if I'm unaware that this lust is mine, I can project projected onto her. And then I'll think that she is after me. Because that's what happens when we project. Some of our motivation is they get on. So if I'm angry at you and I project my anger onto you, I'll think you're angry at me. And that's what projection is all about. It's one of our major defense mechanisms.

That's also where the roots of narcissism likely come from, right?

That's correct. And as for narcissism, what we want to do, narcissism can get so intense that it splits off part of itself accidentally and that becomes shadow material. So, and Freud was the first to spot this. Not many people know that the terms often associated with Freud, like the ego and the is. Freud never once used either of those terms. He used the actual German pronouns that are translated in Latin terms. The I is translated as the ego or self, and the shadow is translated as the it or as Freud, the Latin term that his translator used for Freud, Both the ego and the ID are Latin terms and they were used to translate Freud's pronouns into their Latin forms. So Freud would actually say things like the I is often feels hurt or damaged from the id, and that's actually how they'd write it the I and the id. And his major translator, James Strache, translated those into Latin. And so in English, those Latin terms read the ego and the it. And so Freud's statement that the I is often hurt by the ID would be translated as the ego is often hurt by the id. But that's not what Freud ever wrote. And so what he means is that the I has to reunite with the id. And the real master of doing this was a guy named Fritz Perls, who became very famous at Esalen Institute, which Mike Murphy had founded as the first growth center in America in the late 1950s. And by the 1980s, there were over 300 growth centers, all copied off of Esalen Growth Center. And one of the stars at Esalen was Fitz Perls. And Pearls famously said, I can cure any neurosis in 15 minutes. And what he would have the person do is they'd come up to work with him, and he'd have him sit in a chair. And in front of the chair they're sitting in was just an empty chair, a chair with nobody sitting in. And so the person might say something like, well, I have this terrible anxiety, and it's always overcoming me. And so they're actually using the terms I and if it often overcomes me or the I. And so what Pearls would do is have them put the it or their symptom, whether it was depression, anxiety, compulsion, obsession, depression, and so on, actually put it in the empty chair and talk to it as if it were a real sexual second person. You. So the person with anxiety might talk to its own girls would say, put the anxiety in that chair and talk to it. And so they'd say, okay, anxiety, why are you picking on me? And then you say, okay, answer it. So you play like you're the anxiety, Sit in the empty chair and have a conversation with yourself. And the more they would talk as the it, they were becoming the it. Because I'm not talking to my anxiety as an it. I'm talking to it as an I. Oh, I want to know why you're always feeling anxiety or whatever it was. But their I would identify with there is so what Freud says, where it was their I shall become. That's what would happen. And the person would actually re Identify with their it shadow because they're now talking as if they were actually one with it. And that's why in about 10 to 15 minutes, their anxiety would start to go away because they're reintegrating with. With that feeling. And that's why Pearl Said I can cure any neurosis in 15 minutes. And even his critics agreed with him. He was amazing fellow that this kind.

Of idea, it sounds kind of crazy. And what I found is that the body or the ego, whatever you want to call it, it does all sorts of stuff that's invisible to our conscious brains until we develop the faculty to see it it. And then there are these mystical states, the ones that we've talked about, that allow you to go in and kind of change your settings. And that practice is a very potent way of doing it. And it, it, on its face, it's entirely irrational when you look at it, the rational mindset. And just once you realize that a lot of what your body does is not rational based at all. It's motion based or it's based on phases of the moon or, you know, magnetic fields and all sorts of stuff. You just don't even even know. So all of a sudden you can go in and change the settings. And it's funny, probably a, a seventh generation after that process is a part of the reset process I use at 40 years as end. There is an actual chair there and it's done with neuroscience signals, but they visualize a thing in a chair because it's so powerful to bring and to reintegrate and to create. When it, when it comes back in, you have a spiritual experience. It's a heart opening thing and, and all that. And, and I'm, I'm always looking for the faster ways to help people do that without using psychedelics. I don't care if they have used them, I don't care if they're going to use them again. But it, it feels like the really deep sensations I've experienced, the sense of oneness with the universe, they never came from psychedelics as strongly as they did from a process like that where you just reintegrate as soon as it comes in. You're like, oh my God, look at how big I am right now, now. And, and so I'm, it's very hard in a podcast to talk about these mystical states that there aren't words for unless you've been there and we agree on what the words are. And, and that's why Buddhism has, you know, 10 million words written from the masters about it and they're still not done. And you know, but, but I think this conversation is going to be very helpful for people who are saying look, is all this mumbo jumbo woo. Nonsense sense or is there something. And I say guys, here's a master who spent 60 years studying this stuff and Ken Wilber, you're different but you're not nuts. I think few people would say you're crazy. You just have developed faculties that most of us haven't and thankfully you're teaching it and I'm so grateful for that and I want everyone listening guys read finding radical wholeness when it comes out and I'll definitely re release this or I'll put out out some stuff when your book comes out. In the meantime pick up a Ken Wilber book or listen to some of the audios that you've got out there because it's, it's powerful stuff and and I, I especially want to thank you for coming on the Human Upgrade and just sharing your wisdom with me and with all of our listeners and, and with the world. I, I genuinely appreciate you.

Well I, I've enjoyed this immensely and I'm delighted that you asked me to do this.

You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Aspen Free.