Identity Hacker: How I completely changed my personality in my 30s

You might be the first guest out of almost 1300 guests who's talked about personality changes after giving birth. What gives you the right to change your own personality?

Anyone can change their own personality.

What if your personality isn't who you are? What if it's just who you've practiced being? Anxious, neurotic, introverted? We are told those traits are hardwired, fixed. But what if that's just a story, One you've been living inside for too long? Olga Kazan is a celebrated journalist at the Atlantic, author of Me But Better, and one of the only people to test track and intentionally change her own personality.

Because my family was just so different from everyone around us. Up until college, I was told directly or indirectly that I was weird.

Using science, not self help or wishing. What did she discover? Most people feel stuck not because change is impossible, but because they don't know where to start. They mistake their habits for identity, their anxiety for truth, and their personality for destiny. You can rewrite the way you think, feel, and show up in the world, but it starts with, with one simple question. What if you are not your personality? You are not stuck, you're not broken. You're not doomed to live life through a filter of anxiety or self doubt. Your personality is changeable, your mind is plastic, and the story you tell yourself can be rewritten.

Your personality is sort of not real. There's nothing about it that is set in stone. Most people's personality changes more over the course of their lives than their happiness, their church attendance, their health status. So our personalities are always changing.

Do you know what's actually better for you? If your personality is telling you a bunch of lies. You weren't born to be someone else's idea of you. You were born to edit yourself. So start rewriting. You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey. Okay. Any final last words before I die?

No.

Cool. This is funny. You don't get nervous easily. I always try to put people to make me nervous beforehand so they'll relax, but you just don't do it. Like, what's up with that?

I get nervous. Do you get nervous? Yeah.

Did you change your personality?

Yeah, I changed my personality, so I'm never nervous anymore. See, I'm nervous right now.

I finally brought it out of you.

Yeah, exactly.

No. So you're listening to this going, what is going on? You wouldn't know this unless you were in the Upgrade collective group, but when guests come on before we start rolling, I usually like, tease them a little bit and just, just so they can get a little bit ramped up and then it causes a relaxation response afterwards. So we could be more chill and like, oh, whatever my worst fear was happened. Right. Not necessarily worth fear, but you're just like, super chill. Is this your native state or did you build that?

So this is not my native state. I. I am extremely neurotic.

Really?

Naturally.

Okay.

And then I have worked extensively to reduce my neuroticism. And so I think what you're picking up on is a slightly reduced level of neuroticism. Okay.

On a level of 1 to 10, with 10 being the most neurotic person there is. How neurotic were you?

I was actually over a 9. So I was at a 9.3. I was more neurotic than, I think, 94% of the population. Yeah.

And where are you now?

So the last I checked, I was low on neuroticism, so I was probably, I think, in the 40, like, 40th percentile, which is not bad for me. Yeah.

How do you measure how neurotic you are?

So for this project, I have been. I have been taking personality tests on this science based personality testing website called personalityassessor.com, which is created by a SMU psychology professor. So it's. It's not a Scientology thing. It's. It's legit. And it will tell you where you rank on personality compared to everyone else on Earth.

Did you just attack Scientology?

Sorry, I'm.

I mean, I'm not going to tell Tom Cruise, but just saying.

Yeah, I mean, people. When someone says personality tests, some people are like, I don't know about that, but this one is legit.

I'm totally teasing you. I'm. I'm a huge fan of personality tests because awareness of your unconscious traits is so important because you will think everyone else is just like you, because that would be normal. Because you only see the world the way you see the world and knowing, oh, I'm totally neurotic, otherwise you would think you're normal and everyone else must be as neurotic as you. And that's not real, is it?

No. And the other thing that I fell into was I'm not neurotic. Bad things just always happen to me or my life is just unusually stressful.

Oh, you had a victim story or ye.

Or, you know, or I'm not too introverted. Other people just suck and.

Well, that might be true.

Yeah. I mean, sometimes that is true. But, you know, but that. Those kinds of stories are also not totally accurate.

How often do you Test your neuroticism using personality tests.

So during this project, I was testing it probably every three months or so now that I have a baby and less time, I've probably every six months.

Every six months. What would you do if you suddenly found that you were way more neurotic now than you were six months ago?

So that happened. So after I had Evan, my son, I took another personality test in the immediate postpartum period. And I had made all this progress with changing my personality, with reducing my neuroticism, increasing my extroversion, and all of my scores cratered because of the postpartum period. Can be so rough hormonally, psychologically, it's sleep deprivation. And so that. Yeah, so I. I did have that experience.

You might be the first guest out of almost 1300 guests who's talked about personality changes after giving birth. And thank you for doing that because, I mean, many years ago I wrote a big fertility book, and it totally happens. There's nutrient changes, there's mitochondrial changes, there's hormone changes. And you weren't tracking heart rate variability like a biohacker. You're saying my personality changed?

Yeah.

So what steps did you take to change it back to the way you wanted?

Yeah. So I think a lot of it was just the gradual kind of leveling out that happens after the first couple months or so with. With a new baby. So he started sleeping more, and I really started to prioritize my sleep and self care and just honestly, like, getting enough of it, like really sleeping when he sleeps. I also had to just, like, let go of some of the uncertainty that is inherent in having a child. I really. My approach to most things in life had been that I have to control them perfectly and they have to unfold in a very specific way or else I would kind of melt down. And babies don't work like that. Babies kind of do a lot of their own thing a lot of the time. And once I accepted that and that, you know, he hasn't read the baby books, he's gonna act the way he does a lot of the time. I kind of just started to relax a little bit naturally.

Wait until he starts walking, because you're gonna say, I put padding on everything in the room. And babies have this radar. They'll like toddle into a room and they'll find the one corner that isn't padded, and they'll just run right up to him, bang their head on it.

Yeah.

And you're like, there's 500 pieces of foam in the room. Like, how did you know?

Yeah.

Yeah. So that's a whole new phase.

Anything dangerous, anything dirty, he loves it. Yeah.

As they should. Like, it's how they learn.

Yeah.

Are you neurotypical?

So I don't know. I always wonder this because I. So we, I guess, like, to. To get really candid, we took him to a developmental pediatrician because he's. He's missing some milestones, basically. And she was like asking us. She was kind of describing some of the symptoms of. Of autism.

Yeah.

And I kind of realized that I have some of those symptoms. And I mean, it's pretty high functioning, I think, if I do have it. But I definitely have like some of the. The triggers that autistic people have.

I have pretty good. I just made up a word, Adar.

Okay.

It's autism radar. It's kind of, I guess like gaydar or radar or something. But I just made that word up and it makes me happy. So adar. And that's because I used to have Asperger's syndrome.

Okay.

So I grew up with all sorts of neurological symptoms, including like, things have to be a certain way or like, I'm just kind of meltdown. And I was able to change my biology and then rewire my brain and my whole nervous system and all. And it's such a wide spectrum that when you describe some of those things, I'm like, ADHD is the beginning of. I'm not that neurotypical. And then the control thing. So I'm like, there might be a little bit. Plus, you're a really good writer because you write for the Atlantic and all. So you're good at structuring words and structuring language. Hey, I'm a good writer too, right? So there's superpowers that come from it. And I was like, the neuroticism, it could just be self judgment and self criticism, or it could just be like my body and my mind do that. So what does it mean to be neurotic anyway?

So neuroticism for me was really defined by negative emotions. So just a feeling of worry, worrying about things that had happened, worrying about things that will happen and then never really enjoying. So you finally reach some goal that you had. It happens. Yay. It's all, you know, the COVID story goes to press, the whatever. You get the thing, you finish the 5K, and there's just no positive celebration of that moment at all. It's just worrying about the next thing or why wasn't it better? So it really kind of, for me, sucked. A lot of the joy out of life.

Okay, now I'm really curious. When you get the COVID story or you have some big thing happen, do you sit in a bath of golden joy for a couple days from that?

I mean, I should. I think that a big part of reducing my neuroticism was trying to kind of just embrace positive moments. And. And I mean, again, this is all science backed, but I think gratitude can sometimes seem cheesy or people kind of look down on it. But honestly, just having gratitude for things that did go right as opposed to, you know, suddenly hyper focusing on the things that went wrong.

I love it that you're talking about gratitude. It's a core part of the book that I am publishing pretty soon and yours just came out and it's called Me but Better, which is such a great title. I love it because these personality traits that we think are locked in, they're plastic. We can change them. So thank you for writing it. It's cool. And thank you for including gratitude.

Sure. Yeah.

I used gratitude to say thank you. I thought that was.

You're so welcome.

But for real, talking about gratitude as a practice and people talk about gratitude journaling and all. Do you gratitude journal?

So I did a lot for this project. I have to say that my gratitude journaling and my meditation have really fallen off with we have a baby, like.

All that goes away.

But I will say that that was one of the things that I did for my project and it honestly was one of the more quickly kind of like snap you out of a negative thought spiral is even just like writing a letter of gratitude to someone who helped you is such a incredibly powerful thing to. For people like me who can really get down in the dumps quickly. And then it just kind of builds on itself and builds on itself to just express gratitude for someone who did help you or someone who did something positive in your life. It's. It's a really great way to break out of that.

Okay, that makes. That makes a lot of sense. Do you write like three things you're grateful for in the morning or do you like, sit down and like, you know, do a spoken gratitude practice? What's the actual thing look like?

So when I was doing this most regularly, I would write in a journal and I like, I would physically write and I would sort of just, you know, write. Usually three things I was grateful for. And it was a hard thing for me to wrap my head around because I'm actually Russian and Olga kind of gave. Yeah, yeah. In my culture, it is Considered like tempting fate to express gratitude. It's considered like you are inviting God to like, punish you by. Or Russians don't believe in God, but like, whatever the universe to punish you because you're being too happy and you're kind of appreciating what you have. So it was a big step for me to have to like, accept that that's not going to happen and that expressing gratitude benefits me and doesn't actually, like, invite any negative stuff from the universe.

So if Russians don't believe in God, they must believe in some kind of magical power to give you negative things. What's that magical power?

So they. So sorry. And I'm speaking here of like, Soviet Russians, like my parents, not modern day Russians, who I think there is a lot of orthodox Christianity, but So Russians believe that there is like, fate, and fate is like always watching. And fate is basically like this really mean God that makes bad things happen in your life. And if you're like, not careful and if you express happiness or positivity, then fate gets like extra mad and is extra likely to make bad things happen.

Do you think neuroticism is passed down through generations by training?

So I do. So both my parents are very neurotic and most personality traits are about 30 to 50% genetic. So you have a little bit of a set point. You can think of it like, if both your parents are very overweight, that doesn't mean that you will necessarily be overweight, but you might have to, like, skip an extra order of French fries more than the average person. Right. Like, your body's kind of like, naturally trying to be a certain weight. And it's the same with personality where, like, my mind is naturally kind of wanting to be a little bit neurotic and I have to kind of struggle with that.

So there's a voice in your head that's kind of an angry critic all the time.

Yes. Yeah.

Do you think you can ever make that voice just go away?

I think I have made it go away. I believe you a big way. A big part of doing that for me was actually loving kindness meditation, which I thought was so cheesy. I know, right When I first started, I was like, what? But it really is, I would say for beginners, that is like a great way to just get started meditating. And it also doesn't take very long, which is a bonus.

I'm all about meditation that takes less time. Because who has time to spend 20 years in a cave meditating? Right. Loving kindness or similar gratitude and forgiveness practices are at the core of what I do with CEOs at 40 years of Zen. And there's a structured process for it, and similar to you, I was able to turn off the angry, critical voice in my head. It's just not there anymore, which is astounding to me because it was a major part of what I thought I was. And it's really actually triggering for some people. Even when you say it can go away, why do people get mad when you tell them that they can just shut up the voice in their head?

Because people think they need anxiety to function. A lot of people think that without anxiety, they wouldn't achieve anything, that they wouldn't want anything, that anxiety is responsible for all of their success, that it helps them remember things, that anxiety is basically like their fuel. And especially anxious people tend to think.

That, right, I need my anxiety or I'll die.

Yes, right, yes.

Which is just a funny statement in and of itself. Right. Because it's so not real, but it feels. Feels real.

And it's really because, like, you're always anxious. So, like, everything you do is inflected with anxiety. So. And I say you meaning anxious people.

I feel.

No. So, yeah, I mean, that's. That's really what's going on there.

Okay. If someone's really anxious, like right now, and they're going, what is the fastest thing they could do to be less anxious?

To be less anxious? I would recommend deep breathing. That. That's honestly the. I think if. If you don't have a mindfulness practice, if you don't have a meditation practice, just sit there and take really deep breaths. You know, try to hold it in for a few counts, exhale for a few counts, and honestly, do that for five minutes and see how you feel after that.

That is fantastic advice. The other thing that might work for some people is you find the source of your anxiety, like so many don't like, and you put them in a wood chipper. Is that a good idea?

I would not put someone in a wood chipper. I would think about why that person is making you anxious, though.

I like your answer better. Yes, that was just a little bit dark, but it did make you laugh. So people get really angry when they're anxious. Right. So anxiety is fear, and then you get really angry, and then you want to punish another person. What's going on with that and how do you change it?

Yeah, So I really found that for me. So neuroticism has an element of anger in it and, like, irascibility, and it can also affect Your. Another trait called agreeableness, which is sort of how you treat other people. So it's almost exactly like what you described. You get angry, you get scared, and then you lash out at someone. Right. Because maybe that'll fix the problem. So this happens a lot, you know, at work. Someone does something wrong at work, you get anxious that it's going to derail the whole project, the whole whatever is happening, and suddenly you're yelling at your co worker. Right. Or you're. You're not behaving in the way that you should in a place. And really like, the thing to do there is to remember that it's a you problem. Like that it is, it is anxiety that's coming up for you and that that other person didn't have the intention of derailing the project, causing you stress, causing you anxiety. It's. It's really remembering kind of what is, what is yours and what is theirs, and, and, you know, it's hard to do in the moment, but that, that was one of the things that I, that I had to do for this project too.

So if someone does something you don't like at the Atlantic, does the voice in your head say they're an asshole or they're having a bad day?

Yeah. So this is key, right? So this is inflammatory labeling. This is what scientists have found. People who get really angry use a lot of inflammatory labeling. So it's. They jump straight to, they're an asshole. Right. They forgot to send that email because they hate me and they're an asshole. They want to, like, undermine this whole thing. They want us to be late on our deadline. And it's, it's really a matter of stopping and thinking, okay, what else do they have going on? How many other projects are they juggling? Have I ever forgotten to send an email on time? And really just kind of trying to have a generous interpretation of other people's actions. And I'm not saying that's not difficult, but that's really what's going to keep you from going from 0 to 60 on anger.

Don't you work with at least one person who's actually an asshole?

I have definitely worked with actual assholes, but yeah, I've tried not to express that to them.

Now I'm just trying to get you in trouble at work.

Right?

So this, this whole thing of inflammatory labeling is going on in society, right. People like, oh, like, they vote this way, they vote that way. They're all this stuff. How do you turn off inflammatory labeling quickly?

Yeah. So the thing that really Worked for me and that. So I took an anger management class as part of the book. And it was kind of funny because it was. It was very. The blind leading the blind. Because it was all people who struggled with anger. And we were like, I don't just get angry. But one thing we all found is that when we understand or try to understand the motivation for someone's actions, we all get less angry. So one woman in the class had a friend who was always late, always late to meet up. You know, she was tired of waiting around for her. She would get really angry at this friend. Finally, she asked the friend, why are you always late? What's the deal here? The friend was. Had been in a house fire. And she was so emotionally scarred by this house fire that before she left the house, she had to unplug all of her stuff that was like, her toaster, her coffee maker, all of that stuff. She had to go around and check all that because she couldn't bring herself to leave the house with anything plugged in. And so she was always late. And for me, I don't have anyone in my life like that, but I. What really worked for me was trying to remember that everyone has sort of a hidden motivation for whatever it is they're doing. And it's not often bad. It's usually pretty understandable. So when I would get mad at my husband for not doing the dishes, honestly, it's often because, like, he's just really tired, because we're both really tired because we're new parents. And sometimes when you're really tired, it's hard to do the dishes instead of stare at your phone for a couple minutes, like, after the baby goes to bed. And so trying to have empathy for other people can really kind of talk you down from that anger of, like, why might they be voting that way, doing this, saying that, what's going on in their head? For me, that was the most effective thing.

I've come to the belief that it's never personal what people do. Like, I've got a few people who I've fired for stealing money. Like, people. I would say, okay, there's problems here. And they're out there right now, like, trying to set up some business things because, like, they have to prove that they were right. And I could easily say, oh, that's about me. It's not. It's about their desire to be the good person, even though they did something bad and maybe they'll work. It's just not about me. Right. And I'll manage it. However, I manage those things. But for me to do that kind of transformation from where I used to be with this angry, like, I will destroy them. Like, I don't actually sit in that energy anymore. And it's. It's just more like I'm really glad I'm not in that situation right now.

Yeah.

Because, like, they're living a hellish life. How many times a day do people push your buttons now versus before you change your personality?

So I would say that my button pushing, I had it pretty well contained to just my home life and specifically frustration with my partner. And it was always, you're not doing enough. You're not doing the dishes on time. You're not. You didn't. You haven't swiffered for the past two weeks. I did it the past two weeks. There was like a lot of score keeping and kind of like keeping track of who's doing what. And I took everything that he didn't do as a, like, personal affront.

Oh, wow. That's toxic.

Yes. Yeah. So just like, he's not doing this because he doesn't love me. He's not doing this because he doesn't care about our house, about our life. Yeah. I would really extrapolate a lot. I feel like the biggest thing that's changed since we had Evan is that I really get into that mode a lot less frequently. I just have a lot more empathy for what he's going through because I am also going through it. And the fact that when you've gotten up at 5:30 in the morning to like feed someone oatmeal and they're throwing the oatmeal back in your face like you just aren't in the mood to swiffer sometimes. And so I would say that's been the biggest change. And I also have more motivation now to not act out in anger toward my partner because I don't want my kid to see that. Like, I don't want him to see us yelling at each other or to see that, like, anger is like the mode of the world or like the way that people should relate to each other. So. And one thing that I found in doing this book is that having like a personal project or like a big goal that's really important to you is a huge motivator for personality change. So I think for me, honestly, that was a big thing is just like now when I start to get angry about Swiffering or whatever else low level thing, I kind of am like, okay, is this worth Evan watching, you know, us blow up at each other and usually it's not.

Is your husband the same?

He is not, no. But he seems that way in the book and multiple people have said that.

Did you convince him to change his personality as well?

So yeah, I think I did. And great question. So he is not conscientious and he is still a lot less conscientious than me. One thing that I expressed kind of early on in this project was that I needed him to step up his conscientiousness.

What does that even mean?

So conscientiousness is organization, timeliness, getting up early, getting places on time, kind of finishing what you start being productive. It actually includes eating healthy and exercising. It's sort of just being kind of type A, for lack of a better word.

You'll be more anxious.

Well, no, it's actually not related to neuroticism, but I don't know, I guess they co occur in a lot of people. But he's really not like that. He's, he's really show up when he feels like kind of really disorganized, doesn't like intrinsically exercise. And I was like, hey, you need to really make some changes. You're, I mean he's in his 40s. I was like, you can't not ever move your body as a 45 year old man. Right, right. Like you can't just sit on the couch like you did when you were 20, you know. So I really was talk to him about, you know, can we try to be healthier? Can we try to be more organized, can we try to be less cluttered? And I, I really feel like he did kind of make steps to doing that.

Very cool. And you were less judgmental when he didn't.

Yeah. And I, I kind of noticed him trying and for me that was like a big sign is that he, he even like makes an effort, you know.

Okay, very cool. What gives you the right to change your own personality?

Anyone can change their own personality. Your personality is sort of not real like it, there's nothing about it that is set in stone. Most people's personality changes more over the course of their lives than their, their church attendance, their health status. So our personalities are always changing. You can kind of decide what your personality is going to be like.

What if you pick the wrong one.

You can change it again. You really are never stuck being a certain way. If you have sort of decided that you're an introvert and suddenly you're spending way too much time alone, you feel withdrawn and lonely, you can always change that.

Who's happier. Introverts or extroverts?

Extroverts are happier, according to the studies. Introverts get mad when I say this, but I think there is still a way for introverts to get those happiness. That happiness boost of extroversion without necessarily being the life of the party. Just surround yourself with other people, even if you're not talking very much.

It seems like if you wanted to be less introverted, the first step would be learn how to deal with anxiety when you're in a group. Right?

Yeah. Some of the people that I interviewed for the book did have that problem, so they wanted to be more extroverted, but they had a lot of social anxiety. This one guy that I talked to, Robert in particular, had that. And basically what he did is he just decided to live with the anxiety. So he would feel anxious about going out and he would just tell himself, I am having the feeling that I am too anxious to go out. And then he would just go out anyway and whatever happened would happen. Usually it was fine because most things are fine. And he would socialize, he would have a decent time, and then he would go back home. And, you know, maybe he was anxious that whole entire time, but he kind of just decided to live alongside the anxiety. And I found that that can be more effective for people than using the anxiety as a signal that you shouldn't do something.

Anxiety at the end of the day is fear. And using fear as a signal to not do something is usually a bad idea.

Exactly.

Unless it's actually dangerous. Like, don't go fight the tiger.

Right, right, right. Yeah. Like, we develop this instinct to keep us safe from like a saber tooth tiger, but we don't actually need it to like avoid talking to other people.

One of the techniques that works really well for people who don't want to exercise. Well, go to the gym. Even if you don't feel like it, just go there. You don't have to work out, but once you're there, you'll do it. And it can be the same thing. You know, go to the party, you don't feel like going to the party, but because you're working on this aspect of your personality, you just go to the party. And you can go there and leave it five minutes later, but you probably won't. Right. And so then you realize, okay, over time you've changed this. So is this like exposure therapy that makes you change your personality or is there something deeper?

So it can be a type of exposure therapy if you're really afraid of whatever you're doing and then you're kind of gradually building up a tolerance for it. That happened with me and improv class. So I was really afraid of improv. I. It made me nervous every time I went, but honestly, it was exposure therapy. I just did it enough times that it didn't make me nervous anymore. But it's also a concept called behavioral activation, which you probably know about. But so a lot of the personality change literature is kind of basically behavioral activation, and it just means go do something even if you don't really feel like doing it, because you're not going to initially feel like doing it. So the gym is a perfect example. You know, when people are depressed. A lot of the non pharmaceutical interventions for depression is to just, okay, go outside and with your running shoes on. Like, you don't have to actually run, but like, you will find that once you're outside with your running shoes on and it's a, you know, beautiful day, you might, you know, you might just run a quarter mile and then you'll feel a little bit better. So that's really how a lot of the personality change literature works.

It makes so much sense. I was going to do an improv class, but then I was afraid that I would embarrass Joe Rogan by being a better comic than he is, so I couldn't go.

Hear that. Joe.

I'm totally kidding, totally kidding. I did sign up for an improv class, but I don't have any anxiety about public speaking, not for many, many years. Just because I was terrified of it. I'm like, I'll become a teacher. So I taught for five years and after a while I'm like, I just, I'm okay.

Yeah.

But it, it for me, the first time I was terrified and it took a long time to just like, relax. But then they canceled improv class because not enough people signed up. I was like, damn it, one of these days I'm gonna do it.

Oh, man.

I don't think Joe has anything to fear, though. You called your book you but better. How do you know what's actually better for you if your personality is telling you a bunch of lies?

Yeah. So scientifically speaking, what's kind of a better personality is to be more open to experiences, more conscientious, more extroverted, more agreeable, and less neurotic. Right. And so that's like the people who are super happy, healthy, kind of well adjusted, they tend to be have those that collection of traits don't have to be all the way on the, on the far end. You don't have to even have all five of those, you know, kind of going the same direction. Just having, like, a couple of those going for you would be good. But another way to tell, you know, what's better for me or what should I be doing is just like, if you don't feel good in some domain of your life. So I started this. I actually noticed that I wanted to change before I took the personality test. And it's because I felt really anxious all the time. I. I wasn't enjoying my life, and I felt really socially isolated. Those are related to personality traits. But once you identify the. The issues that you're having, you can pretty quickly kind of see what traits are responsible for those issues.

Aren't agreeable people easier to take advantage of?

This is a common thing that comes up with agreeableness. So I was trying to become more agreeable, but not many people like select agreeableness as the trait that they want to change in the personality change literature. Because there's an impression that being agreeable means being a people pleaser, and that's really not what it means because of a concept known as bound change in the personality change literature, because there's a impression that being agreeable means being a people pleaser, and that's really not what it means because of a concept known as boundaries, which I love the way you say that. So we all have to have boundaries, and they help our relationships work. And a big part of being agreeable is having really strong boundaries. You cannot be agreeable without good boundaries, because people will walk all over you. If someone tells you, hey, you have to spend $10,000 to come to my bachelorette weekend. It's not necessarily agreeable to say yes to that. If you don't have $10,000, you could say, hey, I'm so excited for you to get married. Congratulations again. I don't have $10,000. How else can I celebrate you? You know, whatever your version of that is. But, you know, it's also not agreeable to say yes and then back out at the last minute because you, like, can't take it anymore or can't stand the. The bride or whatever. So, yeah, having strong boundaries and having inner kind of definitions of what you will and will not do is really the key to keep agreeableness from becoming, like, sure, whatever.

What's the difference between your book you, but better and just normal personal development work.

Yeah. So with me, but better, I really wanted to show how personality change is the root of a lot of self Improvement. Because a lot of times we think that the external world needs to change in order for us to feel better or for our lives to go a certain way. And I wanted to really show that you actually have the ability to make these changes day to day without, you know, getting a bunch of money or changing your job or moving or anything like that. It's. It's all within you and it's all. It all can be done with science.

I've been testing your agreeableness this whole time.

Okay.

I've been saying you but better on the book over and over, and you never corrected me.

Yeah, yeah, that's true. I just said me, but better myself. But that's accurate.

I was waiting. I'm like, is she gonna say this?

Yeah, the book is me, but better.

Okay. I also was just making that up. I was just. I remembered it as you but better, so I just said it wrong. But when you corrected me subconsciously or maybe intentionally, I was like, oh my go. Did I say it backwards? I did.

So it's totally fine.

Me but better. Guys, you should come on up. If you could just take a pill that changed your personality, would you?

So some pills do change your personality. There's like one small study that found that Lexapro and I think Zoloft reduce neuroticism kind of over and above reducing depression. Not everyone likes SSRIs. Some people don't respond to them very well. Some people don't like the side effects. I honestly didn't really like the side effects of Lexapro in particular. So that's why I kind of went the kind of mindfulness and meditation route and kind of more cognitive interventions. But you, you can take a pill to change your personality.

I'm always torn because there's so many things that feel innate and they're actually just hardware problems. It's that your body or your brain are doing this. And for me, I had all kinds of chronic fatigue and my brain was all over the place. When I got a brain scan. The doctor said, inside your brain is total chaos. I don't even know how you're standing here in front of me. I'm like, oh, no wonder I'm feeling anxious and just all over the place. So I worked on fixing the brain biologically and then I learned, oh my God, my body doesn't make cortisol and adrenaline or handle them the way normal biology does. And many people have genetics like this, methylation issues, MTHFR comt long term biohackers know those terms. And you're like oh my gosh. I could take a Russian derived herb, an adaptogen, right? Something like a rhodiola or ashwagandha and things like that. And all of a sudden you were anxious the day before and today your stress hormones didn't do that thing. So then you didn't get the angry voice in your head as much. So then it was easier to change your personality and you're like oh my gosh. I could take a Russian derived herb and adaptogen, right? Something like rhodiola or ashwagandha and things that. And all of a sudden you were anxious the day before and today your stress hormones didn't do that thing. So then you didn't get the angry voice in your head as much. So then it was easier to change your personality. I have a hard time knowing am I dealing with a hardware thing that I should deal with nutritionally, have a good breakfast, get a good night's sleep or whether it's a thought process or a personality trait, how do you know?

So there's definitely a brain body connection, right? So there's pretty good evidence now that.

I've hard time knowing am I dealing with a hardware thing that I should deal with nutritionally, have a good breakfast, get a good night's sleep or whether it's a thought process or a personality trait. How do you know?

So there's definitely a brain body connection, right? So there's pretty good evidence now that what you eat does affect your mental health. Pretty. I mean not directly like ah, like you know, but. Right, right. Like you know, over, over you know especially like a, you know eating a more Mediterranean diet has been shown to what you eat does affect your mental health. Pretty I mean not directly like ah, like you know, but can depending what's in your.

What's in there.

Right, right. Like you know, over, over, you know especially like a few months, you know eating a more Mediterranean diet has been shown to improve mental health. Health. Eating fewer processed foods can improve mental health. So I think it's both. I mean there's. There's definitely a brain gut connection, you know a microbiome that influences how we feel and then how we feel. We often kind of use those, those feed improve mental health. Eating fewer processed foods can improve mental health. So I think it's both. I mean there's. There's definitely a brain gut connection, you know a microbiome that, that influences feelings as stories to tell us kind of what's really going on, how we feel and then how we feel. We often Kind of use those, those fe. So if you're constantly feeling tired and sluggish, you might start to tell yourself like, oh, my life is just really hard, or I'm not handling things well, or, you know, my life is bad. So I think, I think it's actually both. Like there's. There's hardware feelings as stories to tell us kind of what's really going on. So if you're constantly feeling tired and sluggish, you might start to tell yourself like, oh, my life is just really hard, or I'm not handling things well, or, you know, my. That you can change through things like nutrition and exercise. But there's also life is bad. So I think, I think it's actually both. Like there's. There's hardware, software, I guess is the. The extension of the analogy, which is your cognition, your behavior, and sort of the things that you're telling yourself.

I was with a highly neurotic person many years ago, and every time she would eat food that was high in MSG, about 10 minutes later, I was the devil. Right?

That you can change through things like nutrition and exercise. But there's also software, I guess, is the extension of the analogy, which is your cognition, your behavior and sort of the things. Things that you're telling yourself.

I was with a highly neurotic person many years ago, and every time she would eat food that was high in ms, it was like this rage. And it was already a high level of anxiety or neuroticism that you're talking about. But it seemed like the dysregulation of, in this case glutamate in the brain just made everyone else in the world worse than they. About 10 minutes later. I was the devil, right? And it was like this rage and it was already a high level of anxiety where before that specific meal. And do you find that in your own personality experiments or neuroticism that you're talking about? But it seemed like the dysregulation of, in this case glutamate in the brain just made everyone else in the world worse than they. That there are certain things that make you highly anxious.

That's interesting. So I found this is not a food thing, but is related. So for a while I thought so Xanax exists and is like a drug that many people take to reduce anxiety.

Were before that specific meal. And do you find that in your own personality experiments that there are certain things that make you highly anxious?

That's interesting. So I found this is not a food thing, but is related. So for a While I thought so, what I found is that it actually was not helping because it was making me feel depressed. It was giving me a story of the world that was very dark and unhappy. Xanax exists and is like a drug that many people take to reduce anxiety. It could be I actually was in a beautiful setting overlooking a beach. What I found is that it actually was not helping because it was making me feel depressed. It was giving me a story of the world that was very dark and unhappy. Beautiful weather, not a care in the world. This is before I had a kid. And if I had taken Xanax, I would actually see it really negatively. I would notice, like, all the flaws in the room or like, why isn't it sunnier out? Or why is this or that? You know, So I definitely. There are definitely things that I could be. I actually was, you know, in a. In a beautiful setting, overlooking a beach, you know, beautiful weather, not a care in the world. This is before I had a kid. And if I had taken Xanax, I would actually see it really negatively. I would notice, like, all the flaws in the room or, like, why isn't it sunnier out? Or why is have taken that? I don't take anymore because I felt like they weren't actually. They were like, papering over one problem and creating another.

Okay, that makes so much sense. So you can numb yourself in a way that's not helpful.

Yeah. And Xanax, one researcher described it to me as like this or that, you know, So I definitely. There are definitely things that I have taken that I don't take anymore because I felt like they weren't actually. They were like, papering over one problem and creating another.

Okay, that makes so much sense. So you can numb yourself in a way that's not helpful.

Yeah. Of alcohol in pill form. And you notice this happening with alcohol too. Like, people drink in order to feel better. Temporarily over the long term, it absolutely brings your mood down.

You ever try Modafinil?

I have tried Modafinil.

Did it help with anxiety? Did it change your personality?

Modafinil didn't do anything for me.

Oh, you're one of Those. Xanax.

Xanax. 1. One researcher described it to me as like, alcohol in pill form. And you notice this happening with alcohol too. Like, people drink in order to feel better. Temporarily. Over the long term, it absolutely brings your mood down.

You ever try Modafinil?

I have tried Modafinil.

Did it. It's like my favorite drug. I've been on it for 25 years. I made it part of the biohacking movement and was on Nightline years ago for it and 80% of people, it works for them. And for 20% of people, they take it and they're like, I didn't. It didn't do anything.

It didn't. It didn't do much. Yeah, I'm one of those, like, non responders.

But Modafinil can't help with anxiety to change your personality.

Modafinil didn't do anything for me.

Oh, you're one of those. Gen X. It's like my favorite drug. I've been on it for 25 years. I made it, like part of the biohacking movement and was on Nightline years ago for it and 80% of people, it works for them. And for 20% of people, they take it and they're like, I didn't. It didn't do anything.

It didn't can do. Do help people stay more alert.

Yeah, it also strangely helps with anxiety for some people, just because if you're having, like, dips in energy, that can make you feel anxious as well. So, yeah, I do my 100 milligrams pretty much every morning and my wife is much better for it.

That's great. It didn't do my. Yeah, I'm, I'm one of those, like, non responders. But Modafinil can, can do. Do help people stay more alert.

Yeah, it also strangely helps with anxiety for some people just because if you're having, like, dips in energy, that can make you feel anxious as well. So, yeah, I do my 100 milligrams. Does sleep change your personality?

For me, sleep absolutely changes my personality. I think for most people it does. So getting a good night's sleep is one of the best things you can do to reduce anxiety and depression. It can also make. Make you feel more extroverted because you.

Feel it's pretty much every morning and my life is much better for it.

That's great.

Does sleep change your personality?

For me, sleep absolutely changes my personality. I think for most people it does. So getting a good night's sleep is one of the best things you can do to reduce anxiety and depression. More rested. You don't want to necessarily retreat back and kind of spend a ton of time alone because you feel like you have the energy to give to other people. So I would absolutely look at your sleep if you feel like your life is not going the way you want.

I couldn't agree more.

It can also make you feel more extroverted because you feel more rested. You don't want to necessarily retreat back and kind of spend a ton of time alone because you feel like you have the energy to give to other people. So I would absolutely look at your sleep if you feel like your life is not.

Does nicotine have any effect on anxiety or on your personality just being more.

Focused nicotine, as far as I know. I don't know about personality, but I think it does improve focus.

Oh, for sure.

Not advocating smoking cigarettes.

Not me either.

I. Going the way you want.

I couldn't agree more.

But nicotine does have, like, cognitive alertness properties.

And neuroprotein. Does nicotine have any effect on anxiety or on your personality just being more.

Focused nicotine, as far as I know. I don't know about personality, but I think it does improve focus.

Oh, for sure.

Not advocating smoking cigarettes.

Not me either. Protective things for Alzheimer's and all. Have you ever tried it?

I have. I used to vape, but I stopped because I. I know.

Well, you're a mom, right?

I stopped because I got pregnant.

Well, if you start again, may I humbly suggest, don't start vaping because it's bad for your organs. You can just do the oral thing and it works pretty well.

But nicotine does have, like, cognitive alertness.

Properties and neuroprotective things for Alzheimer's and all. Have you ever tried it?

I have. I. I used to vape, but I stopped because I. I know.

Well, you're a mom, right?

I'm. I stopped because I got pregnant. Yeah. Okay.

Well, if you start.

Yeah. Some people I know chew like quitting smoking gum.

Yeah.

In order to, like, tailored.

It works, but it's got bad sweetener in it usually. Okay, so what I'm using is called knickknack, and it's a little lozenge that just goes in there. It's kind of. Again, me, I humbly suggest don't start vaping because it's bad for your organs. You can just do the oral thing and it works pretty well. I don't like that. But there's nothing bad. And the little pouches have microplastics and all, so. This is like a mint.

Yeah. Some people I know chew like quitting smoking gum.

Yeah.

In order to, like.

It works, but it's got bad sweetener in it usually. Okay, so what I'm using is called knickknack. And it's a little lozenge that just goes in there. It's kind. That just goes away. But then you're like, everything works.

Yeah, yeah.

And a lot of people do smoke because they're anxious and like it calms them down.

Yeah, that's what people say.

It depends on their brand.

And.

And if I just reduce my anxiety, does that change my personality or are you talking about going deeper? So like that. But there's nothing bad and little pouches have microplastics and all. So this is like a mint.

That is a type of personality change. So going that just goes away.

But then you're like, everything works.

Yeah, yeah.

And a lot of people do smoke because they're anxious and like it calms them down.

Yeah, that's what people say.

It depends on their brain. And if I just reduce my anxiety, does that change my personality or are you talking about going deeper?

So therapy changes people's personality. That's actually one of the biggest interventions is, is long term therapy really does reduce people's neuroticism by I think a whole standard deviation.

That's a big deal.

Um, and so that people tend to see a lot of personality change from therapy. Um, but there's other things you can do beyond reducing anxiety. Um, that is a type of personality change. So going to therapy changes people's personality. That's actually one of the biggest interventions is, is long term therapy really does reduce people's neuroticism by, I think, a whole standard deviation.

That's a big deal.

And so that people tend to see a lot of personality change from therapy. But there's other things you can do beyond reducing anxiety that changes personality. You can become more open to things, you can become more extraverted.