Innovative sex toys help close the pleasure gap with Alexandra Fine

Better every single day using biohacking and all sorts of other stuff, including stuff that we are going to talk about on the show today. You've heard me talk about sex pretty often on bulletproof radio because there's these four F words that drive everything we do. There's fear comes first, food comes second, and another F word is a third one. Fertility. That's what you're thinking of, right? And there's friends, our supportive community. This is the order of operations for all life forms. And if you ignore the energy of sex, you actually won't perform the way you want to perform as a human being. Like, you want to show up for yourself and for the world. This stuff matters, and that's why we just did the Sex Energy series, and, you know, we talked about sexual fantasies from a scientific perspective. And today I'm picking that conversation up again with Alexandra Fine, who's a credentialed sexologist who has a master's in clinical psychology with a concentration in sex therapy from Columbia, who took that passion. See what I did there? And combined it with engineering to start a company that's really looking at how do we use tech to get more out of sex and to make it more satisfying? Alexandra, welcome to the show.

Thank you. It is a pleasure to be here.

I saw what you did there.

Yeah.

This is one of those shows where I'm going to try my best to not let my inner seventh grader come out, but I usually fail, just to be honest.

Why? Why hold it back? You know, I think that that is, like, that inner child is so rejuvenating, and I think kind of like tapping into our curiosity. And the silliness and playfulness of sex can be really. I don't know.

I thought holding back was something you wanted to do.

This is gonna be fun.

I guess the question I have is, okay, you are, in addition to very well educated. You talk about something called the pleasure gap, which we're going to get into. But you also said, all right, I'm going to go out and partner with a woman engineer, and we're going to make meticulously designed technology to improve sex pleasure. But I've talked to other people who are like, toys maybe, you know, they're not going to do everything you want to do because they focus pleasure in the wrong place or because you become reliant and all that stuff. Why did you go in the direction of tech with all the things you could have done given the knowledge you have?

Yeah, well, first of all, I don't think for any issue that you have, tackling it holistically is really important. I don't think sometimes it's just you just need one thing to help you. I don't know. I can't think of a good analogy of a problem right now. But just because a tool isn't going to solve education necessarily doesn't mean that it doesn't have value and can help you on your journey and on your path. In fact, I think tools can in themselves be educating. So I think for me, especially because I wanted to be a sex therapist for a long time, I have my master's in clinical psychology. I was excited by working with one people one on one. But ultimately I think I just, I was so excited and tend to be a little have a natural sense of urgency and I wanted to do more and I wanted to do it faster and by creating tools I can just touch more people. So I was really excited by the idea of what I can do through the marketing and by creating a brand, not just the actual vibrators themselves. So yeah, I think that both being able to impact more people through a brand through capitalism was really exciting to me. And then I also did feel, and we are now doing a lot of education and a lot of the other components that I think bringing them to the masses while therapists can only do things like one on one is really exciting to me.

The idea of building content and education as part of a brand is relatively new. They call it content driven E commerce and certainly that's a big part of what I've done with bulletproofs. Like, guys, I'll teach you how to eat and I'll make stuff you want to eat and. Right. But the teaching has value in and of itself and you've done some pretty crazy stuff. I mean you're on the Forbes 30 under 30. You were the first sex toy allowed on Kickstarter, which is a really hard thing to do because see what I did there because lots of people are, I've been trying to do it forever but they could never get away with it for some reason. What did you do to get Kickstarter to say, oh, this is actually like a high class product? Like how did you do that? Because that's business wise. A very difficult.

Yeah, yeah. So we had a brand at the time, so we were already selling products. We had a website. There was like a visual component and understanding of what we were doing in the public space and we were working. We actually like, honestly, our offices were down the block from Kickstarter so we started having Genuine relationships with the people who worked at Kickstarter. And when we would talk to them, you know, nobody individually had any issue with what we were doing. It was kind of like, oh, this is just our policy, you know, kind of stuff. So we read through their mission statement and we constructed a letter before we were about to launch our next campaign. And you know, they are out there trying to help makers create products, content that, that are going to make other people's lives better. And that's exactly what we were doing. So we really framed our ask and our position in alignment with what they were doing. And they immediately saw it. We were like, look, we are women designing products that predominantly help people just like us have more fulfilling lives. This isn't about prurient behavior. This isn't about being lewd or crude. This is about living a healthy life. And that resonated with them. And within like 24 hours, they came back to us and we're like, we'd love to work with you and we'd love to understand how we can like, open up this category in a way that still feels, feels, you know, safe for people. And I think that's like something that's so fascinating about sex is on the one hand, you know, it's about creating safety. And there's so much unsafety too. Or unsafety. There's so much trauma that really. Fear. Yeah. Going back to your apps, there's so much fear in sex. And some of it's really founded too. You know, I think some of us have our absolute worst experiences in a sexual space as well as some of our most profound and beautiful experiences in an erotic consciousness. So to me, that is only a. That is like the reason that we should be focusing on it. Yet I think that power that it holds is, is so scary for people.

I love that. So you're talking about sex being both shameful or fear driven or fear ridden for some people and also being transcendent for other people. And it's that combination of the two states where it's one or the other or sometimes both. And as a trained sex therapist who studied this, why is it like that? Do you have any theories, like, what do they teach you in school about that?

Well, they don't teach you much about it in school. You know, like, I have my master's in clinical psychology, so, you know, I definitely took all the courses that were interpersonal or related to sex. But ultimately a lot of like the like. So don't talk too much more about like sexuality and how it, like it Comes up in our lives almost outside of the bedroom. One, I think that the power sex holds in all of us can be traumatic or transcendent for anybody. You know, I don't think it's necessarily these two groups of people. I think that, like, it has that power for all of us. And it's just kind of a matter of the experiences we have. There are lots of. There's lots of ancient wisdom around this, but I do think that we're tapping into a different state of consciousness that is incredibly somatic, really tied to our physical bodies. So that those experience, experiences that get like, hardwired into us in a way that I think can both be really powerful and create like, you know, a bond or be really traumatic. And for the rest of your life, you know, every time somebody touches you in a certain way, you, like, just cringe and it just brings you back to this, like, one awful moment. And I think that, yeah, I mean, I've definitely had both of those experiences.

So what's the role of solo play? Masturbation. When you're looking at, okay, transcendent, traumatic. What changes when there is a partner or more than one partner in the room with you?

It's a great question. So much changes, of course. Like it is. I think they're both really important. I think they both have their roles. I think it's very much like dancing alone or dancing with a partner. I think that you can. You of course, can really experience this rise of energy within you on your own and find a lot of healing and understanding and education about your body. But to be able to pass that energy back and forth between you and somebody else is, I think, a very cool experience that I don't. I think that it adds like, this element of healing for me, simply because somebody else is witnessing my experience of pleasure and joy and because I'm also bringing somebody else that experience simultaneously. So not that one is better or worse. I definitely find more time for the solo play, as I think many of us do. But they both. They. I don't know, they both really hold powerful places in our lives. But I do think that there's something about the empathy, the learning how to connect with another person, this back and forth that you have in non solo sex, or I guess we call sex, that's really powerful and beautiful. You know, I do think that, like, we live in a world where we don't have to have sex in order to procreate. And I love asking a group of people, like, okay, who wants to live in that world? Nobody Everybody wants to be having sex with somebody or not everybody. That's not true. There's asexuals. There's lots of people out there who don't, but I think the majority of us do. We want that connection.

So there's insects, there's an act of being selfish, and there's an act of being of service to your partner. And we know that being of service puts you in a flow state. We also know that just sex puts you in a flow state. So there's all kinds of altered states that people go into. I've seen a study that something like 20% of people report having, you know, out of body experiences, you know, meeting God kind of things during sex. Their partner just sees them laying there twitching around, so people go places.

I definitely found God during sex, which is so funny because so many people feel like God is what prevented them from finding sex. Yet I'm like, that's where, that's where I was positive. We were like really connected.

I'm pretty sure that if you believe in God, then you believe that things were engineered by God and he made sex or she made sex, depending on.

Which God you're into. Yeah, I would say. Yeah. I kind of like, you know, the concept of God. We didn't get in there. It's probably not the way my feeling that there's like this, this power that connects us all. That there's something. Yeah, like that. That we are all God and maybe even, you know, I had that feeling, you know, during an orgasm once. And that really is definitely, I think, a big part of why I do what I do. And yeah, you were talking about that back and forth too. I just kind of feel like that's really what it's all about, this push and pull in life. And then when you realize like, oh, when it comes together, when the masculine and feminine kind of spin together in this beautiful way where it really becomes one, like that's. There's just something there that's so powerful and beautiful and healing.

Sex is definitely cathartic for so many people. And, you know, there is an act of being vulnerable. There's an act of surrender at some point, the act of pushing and being selfish and all of those all in kind of in order, but that end in a. In a very high alpha brainwave state, which just so happens to be very effective at canceling out trauma. So that's, that's one of the reasons that it can be really healing. And I'm curious because you have a lot of data about how people are Using toys. And if you go back, you know, 20 years, sex toys pretty much they all, you know, smelled like cheap plastic and were not something that most people were that highly motivated to use. Just there were quality issues all over the place. In fact, I, I actually told one of the companies that wanted me to partner with him. I'm like, your product smells like a cheap sex toy. Like it's not clean. So we don't want, we don't want to be putting phthalates and all that stuff in products that are meant for humans. And so you clearly are using the high end materials and all that stuff. But what I want to know is for people who are buying nice toys, like the dame stuff, how many of them are for use with a partner versus for solo play? Do you actually get that data?

Yeah. So I mean I can tell you, well, we designed some with partners in mind, more so than others. But, but I don't. Here's the data I do have. 35% of my purchases come from people that Google thinks are men. So we definitely have a pretty strong male population that is a part of our community that's buying products from us to use with their partners. I believe something about 48% of people have used a sex toy with their partner report using a sex toy with their reporter. So it's definitely fairly common. And I also think it's like what do we consider a toy or a tool? You know, I think that so many, there's so many, of course, like we're talking about vibrators, but you know, a candle lighting, music, like all of these things are things that we use to change our experiences to put us in the mood and help us connect.

So and if you, if you heard the interview about the largest survey ever done of people's sexual fantasies those a few episodes ago. People use all kinds of stuff. I had no idea.

I actually didn't. I listened to so many of that. I listened to a few things in that, that series. I'll have to go listen to that one.

Yeah, that's probably one that would design four new, four new products for you, including one with wiggly ears and. I'm kidding, I have no idea. But there's definitely. I was kind of blown. Like I had no idea that there was such a high var. It was so common, just all these different fantasies. But just seeing the data is really interesting to me to see what people are actually doing because this isn't something you normally talk about at a dinner party unless it's really close friends and you're all pretty drunk. So it's one of the things where it's a common behavior, but it's in the bedroom. So I feel like sharing knowledge about what people actually do is of service, because if nothing else, then people are like, maybe I'm not weird. Maybe this is just normal, even though we don't talk about it. And that. That seems important.

Mm. I also think, though, that, like, whatever we do is. Is normal. You know, there's this constant idea that, like, oh, am I broken? Like, you know, 70% of women need clitoral stimulation. In fact, a lot of the research shows that's probably even higher than that in order to have an orgasm. And, yes, the data is very normalizing. People feel this feeling of, like, oh, my God, it's not just me when I. When I tell them that figure, but whatever gets you off is wonderful. There's boundaries on that. But, you know, for the most part, it's okay if it is a little weird. And it's not what the data says. It's okay if you don't want to have sex once a week. You know, the data says that that's, like, generally what is average. I will say the data also says that there's correlations between having sex once a week or more and satisfy. Satisfied. Being satisfied in your relationship and in your life. So that doesn't mean that's true for you.

Do you think cancel culture has negatively affected people's sex lives?

Think cancel culture is just. I got into such an argument the other day with a close friend about cancel culture. I think cancel culture, not canceling people. Sometimes that's totally called for. But the culture of wanting to call people out versus wanting to call people in I think is negatively affected everything, but. Or a lot of things. So, yeah, I can see that relationship. I definitely also, I think that there's definitely, as we're going through this big societal shift that I think is really beautiful and cool, and I'm excited to see. There's also some confusion around how, you know, I think me, too, has made a lot of men really afraid to initiate sexual experiences. And women also are like, do I want this? Do I not want this? Do I consent? Do I not consent? And I think that these are really important questions that we should be asking ourselves. I do also think that they're so important that we're asking ourselves this question. It also is definitely, like, creating a barrier. Like, it's okay to, like, it's okay to have it to hit a boundary. It's okay to have an Experience that you don't love at the end, you know, it's okay to do something and then say, oh, you know what? Take your finger out of my butt. Turns out I don't like that. You know, like, I learned that now. It doesn't mean that, like, you know, something bad happened or that it's inherently traumatizing. It's like, okay to have experiences that we don't like and to learn from them.

The way I grew up, it's like one of the two partners would generally say, let's go have sex or do whatever, and the other one says, yes or no. And it was always okay to ask, but I wouldn't want to be dating if I was 20 right now. No idea how I would be able to deal with that. That seems like normal behavior to me.

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, like, that is normal behavior. I do think that, you know, it's really just about learning how to read each other's body languages. And, you know, there's a lot more. There's so much information around it that that information can almost, like, stop you from. From just listening to your body and, like, listening to this other person's body and connecting in a really, like, authentic way. That being said, like, these are great conversations, you know, like, so many women, including myself, were sexually assaulted and maybe if, you know, like, it is so much easier for me even just to say that sentence now than it was in 2010, so.

Yeah, because we removed a lot of the shame from it just by acknowledging that it happens. And, you know, just sexual assault is a bad thing. The guys who don't participate in it, honestly, there's no way that we'd know about it unless a woman told us it was happening. Right. Because if it's a secret, it's a secret. And so I'm. I'm intrigued, though, because when we move, we move past that and we're talking about just normal relationship initiation and things like that. You documented something called a pleasure gap.

Yeah.

Can you talk about what that is?

Women are four times more likely than men to say sex has been not at all pleasurable in the past year. Yeah, I mean, like, I think the reason why we really focus on pleasure over orgasm is because I think that orgasm isn't the only way of understanding pleasure.

Fair point.

Yeah. I think. I would argue it's a fairly male centric way of understanding pleasure, but that was an argument.

I've seen a few women orgasm in my day. They seem to like it.

No, they orgasm. And in fact, they can orgasm A lot more too. So just because they had an orgasm doesn't even mean that it was good sex for them. Their subjective experience of pleasure is different. And to just measure it, whether or not you had an orgasm can be a little binary or reductive of our experience of pleasure. That being said, men are twice as likely to orgasm during a sexual experience than, than a woman. So. And I'm also using being very binary in my male woman language here. But for.

Honestly, we can talk. It's okay. Just if we're looking at statistics, statistics work.

It's also what the research has been done in. You know, the research just hasn't been done with like sex versus gender in mind. They were just lumping it together for so long. And yeah, I am probably just talking about CIS women and CIS men.

Now. You talked about or you had this idea for a wearable vibrator. How does that actually work?

So, I mean, I happen to have it. So this is kind of, this is our flagship product. It's called Eva. It's a hands free control vibrator that you can wear during sex. It has bendable wings that tuck underneath the labia majora. So like my mouth was a vagina and you could see me and it pushes against, it pushes against the labia, the outer labia. And that little bit of tension keeps it in place. So it provides clitoral stimulation, which we were just talking about is so important to women. And you can wear it while you're having penetrative sex with your partner. So we launched it on Indiegogo in 2014. We raised $575,000 in 45 days. Yeah, I went from like my parents being like, what are you doing? To like, so proud. And yeah, this is the second iteration of it now that we sell. So it's called Eva. And there's really nothing else on the market like it. It's a fantastic product if clitoral stimulation is something that you need in order to really experience the full potential of your pleasure. And I'm really, really proud of it.

All right now. Now I'm going to get my engineering side all happy. So you partnered with a mechanical engineer from MIT in order to do this. So did you guys actually like measure the frequency of vibrations against a set of clitoris to figure out like how intense and how many cycles per second? Like how do you go about designing a science based vibrator? Because that's fascinating to me.

Yeah, yeah. So I mean like motor technology is. It's fairly set. We definitely spent a lot of time trying to understand like. So there's like the frequency and amplitude of when you spin the motor. So a motor, what creates vibration, it's like a motor for anything. But then you put a weight on the motor and it spins the weight around, which is like the opposite of what you would want from any other motor. You'd want it to be balanced. Ours is not balanced very intentionally. So it's not just. It's a matter of cycles, which is like how often it goes and how fast it goes. So we will measure that. And then I believe it's called like a G. And you end up measuring like the G, which is a combination of them. And it's just like the experience of.

How the G force, not the G spot.

Yes, the G force, to figure out like exactly how strong that motor is. But for us, like I would say a lot of the engineering kind of went into the wings and getting this product to, to stay in place. It was a little bit more of a mechanical engineering feat than it was necessarily the motor, motor technologies, you know, we've continued to explore them as we've expanded our line to figure out like what, what motors do people like the most? I can tell you that, like, in my experience, whatever products you have, after you use it for a little bit, they're going to wish that it was a little bit stronger.

So people wanted more strength there. You mentioned definitely. I mean, you're, you're going to use your own company's products just like, I drink bulletproof coffee all the time. But you mentioned your parents were like, what are you doing here? But you actually hired your mom as a product tester, right? What was that like?

Yeah, I mean, I actually did also hire and fire my mom, but my mom was a product tester. She. The quote I like to tell people is she said, well, if your daughter makes apple pie, you try the apple pie. So shout out to my mom. Yeah, she. So there's other products on the market and she wasn't really sure. She doesn't love. I mean, gosh, sorry, mom. She doesn't. She is one of the 30%, not the 70%. So she really likes internal stimulation. And I got to have like this really amazing conversation with her about what she likes. And for me it's totally fine as long as I don't really imagine her and my dad together. Which is also kind of silly because I actually. Well, it's getting really intense about my parents life, but they're never gonna listen to this, so it's fine. But they're no longer together. And I think that, you know, you want your parents to be having sex like it is really beautiful, or you want them to be, you know, whether it's having sex with each other or having sex and feeling good in the world, that's something that you want. You might not want to think about it in too much detail, and I think that's fine. But, yeah, it was great to have my mom's experience documented. And she came back to me after trying the prototype and was very much like, I really see what you're trying to do and why this is going to be, like, a successful product.

I'm pretty sure that we have a biological drive. Once you get about 13 or 14, suddenly your parents become really stupid. And anyone else's parents are pretty smart, and we're wired to leave the tribe. Like, you have to be so fed up with your parents that you're willing to face lions, tigers, and bears to go to another tribe to spread your genes around. And it's a biological imperative. And once you're about 23, 24, suddenly your parents are smart again. And, like, we do that so we don't get inbred in small tribes. Back when we were in tribes, I'm pretty sure that same. That same wiring is at play where, you know, the idea of a teenager thinking about their parents, I'm just going, ew. That probably prevents all sorts of bad things from happening the way our sheep would let them happen, because sheep don't have that.

Yeah. But it's probably a good thing real big. So there's also that.

That's a fair point.

Yeah. But I agree. I hear what you're saying. It's good that's hardwired into us. I also wonder if that's how we pass on our traumas. I'm pregnant. I'm very excited to learn about all my flaws for my child. I think they'll be the best therapist I ever have.

Oh, you said you're pregnant. Congratulations.

Thank you.

That's so cool. My first book was on fertility, and it's such a big way to learn. One thing that that's really interesting is that a lot of, especially women, experience if something rough happened to you when you were a year old. When your child's a year old, it'll reactivate your traumas from when you were 1, when you were 5. If something bad happened when your kid's 5, it'll just pop up in your life. And it's the weirdest thing, But I've heard that from so Many parents, we've experienced that as well. And it doesn't have to be sexual trauma. It's any kind of trauma.

Any trauma? Yeah.

All of a sudden you're like, why did I just lose it today? Like, go back. So there's all kinds of intergenerational stu that probably is tied up with sexual trauma as well as any other trauma. So pregnancy is an incredibly amazing time. Well, then I have to ask. Sex toys while you're pregnant?

Pros.

Cons.

Yes. Pros. Pros. Pros. Pros.

Sex toys while you're pregnant.

Pros.

Cons.

Yes. Pros. Pros. Pros. Pros. I mean, I think, I think that's sex to can be a little bit. Well, one, everybody experiences their own changes in their sexuality, in their libido, in their physical experience of sex while they're pregnant. I do think that it can be a little bit more uncomfortable. It can be harder to do certain positions. And a lot of women do report having just a harder time orgasming, especially in their later, like in the third trimester. So having some extra oomph can be really effective. I mean, I've been finding them really helpful too, even from earlier, just because like I was actually really uncomfortable in first trimester, just more so than I am now. So not wanting to do certain positions and being able to kind of rely on something extra was really helpful for me and my partner to stay connected and still feel good.

That's fantastic. It's usually the second trimester is pretty comfortable. The third trimester, not so much. So you're following me.

I'm not there yet.

As a first time mom, that's kind of how it usually works depending on all sorts of variables. The stuff you learn writing a fertility book is a lot. But I wrote the book because my wife was infertile when we met. So you know that that was hackable. And yeah, those are things that oftentimes you don't talk about because also people like ew and oh, I'm getting a comment from Mona, says your hair is back on the mic. There you go. Thank you, Mona. I love having a live audience. Helpful guys.

Thank you, Mona.

Now share with me some things about sex and pleasure and longevity because there's some studies about that. Have you read those?

Yeah, a little bit. I know that there's some research that says that having sex will increase the longevity of your life. I think that like in. Right, that's what we're referring to.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, you know, in daoism, the idea that like your Qi is your life force. Like your sexual energy is where you continue to create. I mean, it's literally how we create other human beings. I think that there's not just scientific, but there's also ancient wisdom that points to this. I definitely feel like it keeps me young. Right. Like sex isn't something we need to do to stay alive, but it is something we certainly do to feel alive. And the way we feel alive when we're having sex, to me it just makes so much sense that that would then also lead to having a fuller and longer life. But, Dave, do you know more about the research? Tell me more.

I've looked at it a lot and the Daoists, and I love that you bring this up. They say for men there's an equation, and it's age in years -7 divided by 4. And don't ejaculate more often than that number of days. If you want to maintain your health and if you want to live a long time, just ejaculate once a month or less and keep your male orgasm to less than an hour. And so I'm like, I have to disprove this, of course. So I spent a year following those rules and testing my daily happiness and discovered, yes, there is an orgasm hangover for men, but the. The Taoist would write for women that they walk away undiminished. Like, it actually builds QI for women to have pleasure and orgasms. And for guys, it is depleting of qi. It doesn't mean you shouldn't have sex a lot.

You can build G with sex life force.

Yeah.

Don'T quite finish. They also talk about being able to orgasm within. So you hold in your ejaculation. I don't know if you've been able to accomplish that. But that is in the readings.

It's in the readings. And I thought it was all bs. I was like, I'm going to disprove this with biohacking and technology. And I believe they're totally right. But I can also say that whole part about, you know, having orgasm for. As a man, you know, for less than an hour. I'm like, what. What kind of garbage is that? And having had ones that last for at least 20 minutes, it's actually not even pleasant. I'm like, could it just stop already? Like, like, I'm going to, you know, like, my abs hurt. I'm done. But you're not done. And I'm kind of afraid of that at this point. So there's all kinds of stuff going on that's longevity Related. But there's a study that says the size of difference in well being for people have sex once a week versus once a month is greater than the difference in wellbeing between making 75,000 a year and making 25,000 a year. In other words, if you have sex once a week and you make $25,000 a year, you're likely to have better well being than someone who makes three times as much and doesn't get laid. And that's why I'm a fan of toys or whatever else you need in order to bring pleasure into your life, because I think it's incredibly important, because people don't have well being, act like jerks all the time, and we're building a world of people who are wired to be nice to each other.

It literally, it just extends beyond the bedroom, too. You know, if you can get better and better at finding pleasure with your partner, I'm telling you, the sky will actually be bluer to you and the world will see. I just think that you're cultivating, you're practicing your ability to tap into a pleasurable state. And that leaves the bedroom. Yeah, it's really, it's wild that we don't talk about it as part of our. Well, like as part of a wellness practice.

At least we can talk about getting a good night's sleep now, which for a long time wasn't even part of it. In fact, I interviewed Montauk Chia a while back. We talked about this as well, which was. Which was really fun and something else that goes hand in hand with that. So if you're a guy listening to this and you're saying, all right, you know, how could I possibly have sex and not have an orgasm? Or not ejaculate? You guys make a vibrator that you actually put on your fingers. So if you're saying, okay, this time, I'm not going to ejaculate, it comes down to more like, okay, now I have, I'm going to say, a toy to play with. Now you have a woman who, you know, clearly, or maybe a man, whatever, you know, whatever your relationship is like. But now since you're like, I've had enough pleasure for right now, now what do I do? And then it becomes a little bit more playful and a little bit more partner focused. It's more of an act of service, right. And then like, oh, you can play that like a violin. And like, you end up practicing on that because you're not practicing the selfish part of it, because, like, I've had enough. And if I go any further, I'm going to ruin the experiment. Yes. When I publish my data, I'm like, yeah, I was going to go 30 days. I only did 24 days. And how do you put that next? Oops. That's what it says in my, my little graph that I published.

I think that it's so accurate. I know, you know, so many people who tell me about. And I've had this experience too where you can't have sex or intercourse, you can't have penetration after some surgery or something. And that opens up a whole world of creativity for you and your partner. And you can actually have the best sex when you're, when you're not doing that. And I also just, I want to double click on what you said too about like, I think so many men have such a script for sex. And just to break that script and to focus on being in service.

I.

Think will just, I mean, not only change the game for your partner, but really change the game for you, you know, and your ability to then like, go back and really enjoy all these other aspects of sex that your script might be passing over and you're not even noticing.

The other side benefit for guys is that if you don't ejaculate all the time, you generally want to have a lot more sex. And you probably do have a lot more sex, which is actually just building for both partners.

Right.

You're more interested and you don't get the ejaculation hangovers and like, hey, can we go again this afternoon? And things like that happen, which probably wouldn't happen.

Yeah, I talked about that with my partner. I've definitely been upset when I found out sometimes if he masturbates or something, you know, it's, and it's, you know, I, I know there's some people who are like, oh yeah, like, I don't feel like he's cheating on me or anything. I just want to make sure he's going to have energy for, for me later because it does impact his energy.

Is dame going to make like a male chastity belt or something like that?

Probably not.

It says right on your blog you make stuff for people with vulvas. But wouldn't that be something for people with vulvas?

I mean, it would be in fact, like, you know, we are looking at things that are, you know, for penises because ultimately, you know, 90% of vulva havers are having sex with somebody with a penis. So if we can change the, you know, it's partnered you know, so it does matter either way. It's kind of for both people.

If you do come out with those, I'm gonna laugh my ass off. I just have to say, because that came up in this.

I can just. I'll send you one. They certainly exist, but we really, you know, and to be honest, we're really focused on this, not necessarily because of the health or scientific backing, but we're focused on creating, you know, sexual wellness products that squarely fit into this idea of what sexual health is. Because so much of what I'm doing is trying to change a narrative. So while I personally believe that a lot of BDSM kink fantasy products are. I'm positive they're healing. It's amazing what kink can do and fantasy can do. But, you know, like, I'm currently in a lawsuit with the mta, which is a New York City subway system, and I'm happy to tell you more about.

What'S going on there.

Okay. So they. We worked with them for, like, six months. They said they would run advertisements for us. And then when we sent in our advertisements, which they had approved, we made them, like. We sent them, like, rough drafts of what it would look like. They said this was fine. We sent them the actual assets at the end, and they said, oh, you know, we would not and would never work with any sexually oriented business. Meanwhile, they're running advertisements for Hims Roman erectile dysfunction medicine.