Kids vs. Big Food: Food Babe’s Playbook for Healthy Choices - Vani Hari | 1099 | Dave Asprey

You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey. Formerly you're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey. This is going to be a really fun interview because it's with someone that I've known for almost 10 years now and someone who's pretty well known. And you probably either love her or hate her. And I think over the course of the last 10 years, it's become more and more love. Someone who has campaigned tirelessly for pulling really inappropriate ingredients out of food, especially in the US where we just have very low food standards. Her name is Vani Hari, also known as the Food Babe. Welcome to the show.

Thank you so much, Dave. It is so good to see you today. I used to see you all the time before I had kids and I just stopped traveling for all the extracurricular activities that where I would see you. So it's just nice to see your face.

It has been quite a while. I think probably Michael Fishman, who's been on the show is maybe one of the last times we saw each other. But yeah, having kids takes you out of circulation for a while. I mean, I have two minor teenagers now, but when they're young, they want you present. So then you do more stuff online. And of course the last three years a lot of people did stuff online against our instar will say, yeah, one.

Of the things that I've appreciated so much about you, Dave, is you were such a courageous and loud vocal presence during that time. And I feel like I connected with you even more because I felt like we were so like minded in the way that we thought about how things were going on. And so I just want to praise you for the stance that you took because you put a lot on the line to tell people the truth.

Oh, thank you for recognizing that. I definitely got Shadow banned. Didn't lose any of my accounts. But if you don't speak the truth, you're just not acting in integrity. And there's times when you might just choose to say nothing because it's safer. And that's okay too, if people do that. But if you lie, that's really bad. And even before any of that stuff happened, you've been very vocal about stopping big food companies from doing things that are just bad for kids and bad for people. And I'll say I don't always agree with everything you do. Just to be really clear, we've had this debate about bht going on forever. I'm like, you can use it to stop herpes. And you're like, Never use it again.

I know. Your producer asked me what I had for breakfast, and I'm like, oatmeal. He's like, what?

Oh, my God. You probably eat kale, too. Oh, my God.

I love kale. It's so good.

Oh, my God. Okay, you have to eat kale. You don't love kale. I mean, you actually love it. Like, you. You choose to eat it on purpose.

Like, there's some good kale salads out there that are really yummy.

So you like.

Like maple syrup, because that's what makes it taste good.

This isn't a conversation about, you know, the ways we would agree or disagree on stuff like that, but it. It's a conversation about the fact that the big food industry is just doing so much bad stuff.

And.

And it's very hard because when you stand up and you say something, they will try to shut you down. They'll use PR techniques. And what you've done is you've persevered. I know how difficult it is because you and I have both faced enormous backlash for saying things that are provably true and work and help millions of people. There's people to this day will say, you know, Dave, you know, you're a con artist, and your stuff doesn't work. I'm like, people have lost £2 million on my diet. Like, it's. People stop me in the streets, and it changed their lives. I know what I did. But if people don't believe it, you've done the same thing because you got your Subway to pull chemicals out of their bread, right?

Yeah. And just to take your audience and your community through the story, this was over 10 years ago now. A lot of people didn't really know about all of these chemicals in our food. This was something that was just getting shared and acknowledged on social media, and that was really how this information spread. Bread. And there was an ingredient in Subway bread called azodicarbonamide. It was banned all over the globe. If you got caught using it in Singapore, they would fine you $450,000 and put you in prison. It's one of the same chemicals they would use in yoga mats and shoe rubbers. So, like, when you look at a yoga mat sideways and you see the evenly dispersed air bubbles in a yoga mat, that's what azo dicarbonamide does. But it also does the same thing in bread. So, like, when you go to a Subway sandwich shop, they wanted their bread to be super uniform. So it's the same thing every single time. That's what gets us hooked, by the way. And kids hook to processed foods. It's the exact same thing every time, where when you're eating a fruit or a vegetable, it can be different every single time. It can be sweeter, it can be sour, it can be, you know, juicier, it can be different. It's different. And that's one of the reasons why fast food manufacturers use these chemicals to create that uniformity. But this was definitely not a chemical that was necessary for our health. Right. And it was also problematic in the fact that when it was heated, it turned into semi carbicide, which is a carcinogen. And then also the factory workers that dealt with this chemical, if they inhaled it, they would get asthma. So this was a very hazardous chemical. And when I started a petition to get Subway to remove this chemical, and the reason I started a petition is because they were using this chemical here in the United States, but not in all the other subway chains all across the world. And they were the number one fast food chain at the time in the world at that point in time. They dramatically dropped from that after this campaign because it went so viral so quick. I was on the front pages of worldwide news and on every single TV station talking about this to the point where they made the decision to remove azo dicarbonamide. But what it did is it forced, actually, every bread manufacturer in America to remove azo dicarbonamide. And so you can only imagine the company that sells this azo dicarbonamide and all the people who are making bread, like the huge bakeries. There's a bakery called Bimbo that makes like, the majority of bread here in America. And you might have seen their trucks.

But I'm sorry, is there a food bimbo brand? Because that would just be so funny.

That would be funny, but so you can only imagine the amount of money that was interchanged in that just one transaction of one campaign. And there's been several that we've led in terms of getting chemicals out of food. And so billions of dollars are in play. And so when you talk about all of the pushback that you've gotten for saying the things that you say, I resonate with that so much because I became a target and actually wrote an entire book about this. It's called feeding you lies about how I was targeted by the chemical industry to make it look like I didn't know what I was talking about. I was a bimbo, right? Actually, one of the top lobbyists in Washington who lobby for the alcohol and tobacco industry. He wrote an article in the Washington Post and labeled me a food bimbo. No, I had my Wikipedia page taken over. I had talks.

Still has taken over. Yeah.

That's awesome. Yeah. So, like, the talks that I would give at these different universities when they would hire me to talk there, and they would literally be run down, like, the websites with, like, troll comments and, like, fake tickets and things like that. Like, people would just go and, like, try to buy fake tickets so it would look like it was sold out. So nobody could buy a ticket.

They played dirty. These big chemical companies, I mean, it was.

It's crazy. To the point where I've had to have security at events because of the amount of trolls and people who are hired by the chemical industry to kind of track me and show up at all my talks.

I remember I was in counter protesters and stuff like that.

Yeah. And I remember I was. I was giving a talk at Blog her, which is like a big blogger conference. I don't even know if they still have it, but it was back in the day and in the audience was like, Monsanto. Like, what is Monsanto doing here at my talk? And someone pointed it out to me before I spoke, and I pointed them out to everybody in the audience was like, look, Monsanto's here watching me here today. And in Monsanto, for those who are listening, is now owned by Bear, and they're the main manufacturer of Roundup, which is. Is the main weed killer that's spread on all of our food, conventional food here in America. It's what's linked to cancer. The main ingredient is called glyphosate. You talk about it all the time, Dave. I hope people know what that is now, because now there's been a million lawsuits, it feels like that have been in victory of showing that it causes non Hodgkin's lymphoma in people. And, you know, I just was at my local hardware store, and you'll never guess this, Dave. I just posted this on my stories yesterday. I'm in my local hardware store, and I asked the guy, I'm taking. I'm taking some background video for a reel I was making. I said, hey, where's the Roundup section? He goes, it's in the Isle of Death. I go, what? He goes, yeah, it's labeled the Isle of Death. And I look up at the top where, like, all of the, you know, the cry on, like, you know, uniform signs are. It says Isle of Death. And I'm like, this. This could be more accurate, right?

Yeah, if you're going to go into a store and they have stuff that kills other life forms, whether it's plants or animals. You probably don't really want to be breathing that or putting on your skin or your food. As a general principle, the glyphosate thing is something you've campaigned tirelessly about. I have as well. And you know, you can call these guys out. It's, it's just evil because they're removing the very basic of the food web. And from a human biology perspective, you can't eat a lot of food in the US and be healthy. And glyphosate is a major cause. And they're now infiltrating Africa, they're infiltrating Europe, and pretty soon there won't be any healthy food on the planet if we let them do it. So my perspective on Monsanto slash Bear is like, if someone says that they work for those companies, you should boo and hiss them. If you believe in canceling people, which I do not believe in canceling people, is stupid and it's what fascists do. But if you're going to cancel someone, anyone who works at any level for Monsanto, they're anti life. Like, get another job would be my recommendation for you.

Yeah.

And do not do violence or be mean or things like that. But seriously, like, if someone used to say, I work for Marlboro, you're like, you're giving people skin cancer. How can you work for Monsanto still? There is no excuse for that. And you will say that. I'll say that. But I don't think many people will. And if Monsanto wants to, I think.

A lot of people give away their souls in that respect because they're not healthy deep down. So when I think about my health journey and your health journey is very similar in that we came from very sick to very healthy. Right. Like, we experienced what it was like to be zombie. Like, you know, I was on nine prescription drugs, I was overweight. I felt terrible about myself, I felt depressed. I was, I was just not living life to the fullest potential. I was working for the man. Right. I was working for this big banking system, financial system, doing all this meaningless work that had no meaning in terms of like really making the impact in the world. Right. And it wasn't until I actually got my health straight, started eating real food, eliminating all the processed foods, learning about the chemicals in food and realizing like, wait a minute, you know, these chemicals are not for a nutritious purpose. They're actually just there to make the food companies More money, and it's like doing nothing for my health. And when I had that epiphany and my life changed, it's like I automatically wanted to do something that was good for the world. I wanted to quit my job, become a food activist full time. And now I started another company producing some of the cleanest supplements on earth. Right. I think it's so important to let everyone know that, like, when you realize your true health, I feel like you are able to open up your brain in a way that you actually give back to the world and you find your true purpose.

It does feel good, but it doesn't always. I remember when we actually first met, you were under attack and I'd already taken some big hits. I think Joe Rogan had already tried to cancel me. And we sat down like in the back of a bus going somewhere at one of these events, and you were kind of frazzled. Do you remember this?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you're like, how do you, like, face this? And you were facing organized opposition from like, paid chemical companies. I was facing basically disorganized opposition from a group of trolls who like, follow Joe Rogan around. But it was still like at a large scale. Like tens of thousands of people come to my social and trashing and stuff like that for economic reasons.

And I mean, you don't think there's any organized force behind that?

Oh, no, there. There is no organized forces. They call themselves the death squad. And it's a group of adults, mostly men, who were bullied in seventh grade or whose mothers didn't love them or something, and they get like, go pick on people's website. So overnight, as soon as, you know, Joe spread some stuff about me for economic reasons because he has an investment in a competitor. None. None of which was at all reality based. My social media went overnight from like, Dave, thanks for helping me lose £100 and saving my life or whatever, to like, you're a bad man. It was really unsettling and it was destabilizing actually for a little while because, like, my world just shifted from like, I'm helping people to suddenly like, like the sense of injustice of it. And I did my neurofeedback and whatever. Like, it doesn't bother me now. And to be honest, one of my favorite blog posts ever was the launch of my product, which is grass fed snake oil. Because we have. We feed the snakes grass and we spin them at low speeds to extract the oils. And like, we made fun of them. Like, it's like, I was like, let's troll. I love trolling, but it took me a long time to get there, and I was further along the path. And then you got even more resistance than I did. And so the resilience that you're showing now, you've launched a brand that's at Whole Foods. And congratulations. It's hard to get in Whole Foods. We've both done it. It's called Truvani. And you know you're succeeding, but you made it through the fire.

Yeah.

How did you make it through the fire? I want to, like, share that experience.

I mean, it was a very emotional time. It was 2015, and just to paint the picture for everybody what had just happened in. In the world. You know, I had just gotten the beer manufacturers to release their ingredients for the first time in history. I pitted Miller, Coors and Anheuser Busch. They were separate at the time, and pitted them against each other to release their beer ingredients because no one knew what was in a bottle of beer. We knew more about what was in Coca Cola and Windex than we did beer at the time. And it was like, the one thing in my fridge that my husband bought. Who loves beer? And I was like, why don't, you know? Knowing what we knew about the food industry and how screwed up it was, I knew they were doing the same thing in beer. And that's what I found out. They were adding all kinds of additives to make it more addictive. They were adding coloring agents that were artificial, made from ammonia and linked to cancer. So this was really important. And so I had just gotten that done, and then my book came out. And then Time magazine named me one of the most influential people on the Internet. And at that point, the food industry was like, we've had enough of this food, babe. We've had enough of this fani. She is going down. She's literally anything that is talked about positively on the Internet anywhere, we are going to have a cast of characters who we have hired and paid for that look, quote, unquote, independent, and we are going to unleash them every single time she is in the media. So, like, anytime a positive article would come out, like the New York Times doing a profile piece on me, for example, came out around that time. There would be three or four detractors in this piece of work, and the same three or four characters would show up everywhere. And one of those guys was Kevin Folta, who later we found out through a FOIA request, which is a Freedom of Information Request act, where you can request from any public University people's emails to see what the interactions are. And we got public emails between him and Monsanto and there was exchanges of money. And it was actually, it was so amazing because it ended up being on the front of the New York Times that he was taking money from Monsanto to badmouth people like myself. And it was just, it was incredible. I mean, another person on that article that just makes me laugh to this day because, you know, I push back with the New York Times reporter, like, hey, these guys are being fed, you know, paid for by the food industry that you're interviewing. It was Fergus Clydesdale. He was on the board of Sensient Technologies, the company that makes caramel color level 4, the ammonia based dye that's linked to cancer. So like, hello, he's getting $100,000 plus to be on this board. Of course he's going to be against everything I do. I just got caramel coloring out of pumpkin spice lattes at Starbucks, you know. And so it was just, it was this constant badgerment by these people who had all of these credentials behind their names and to make it look like like I was nothing. And I just remember there being a time where like I was on the COVID of a magazine and the magazine on Amazon had 5 stars and all of a sudden it had 1 star after I was on the COVID because it had been taken over by trolls. And it just was like this moment of like feeling so powerless and helpless and being like, that magazine's awesome. Why, like, why is this happening to them? It's not really hurting me, it's hurting them. And like now it's like, you know, collateral damage. And I, it's, I started to take it very badly. And I remember calling one of our mutual friends, Gabrielle Bernstein, who is an amazing spiritual. She's great person. And I just was like, what do I do? Like, I can't handle this anymore. Like, this is too much. The first thing she did was pray. She prayed and she brought in her spirit forces and she did all of her stuff that she does, the most amazing stuff that she does to bring in energy and to protect me. And she reminded me, and this was so important that the mission that we're on, Dave, is bigger than ourselves. Like literally it's just bigger than ourselves. And so if we have to take one for the team to take the brunt of all this force against us, to get the real message out there and the real truth out there about food and about health and technology and all those things and pharmaceuticals, then we have to be that vessel. And at that moment I turned off my Google alerts. And that was over 10 years ago now, or almost. It was about eight years ago. Eight years ago, I turned off my Google alerts and never looked back. And I was like, I don't care if someone says something nice about me or mean about me. I don't even want to know. I don't want it to influence my daily work. And that was the best thing I ever did.

It's the old Helen Keller quote. What people think about me is none of my business. Yeah.

So good. Like, yeah.

Getting to the point where instead of just saying that, where you actually feel it and it's, it's in integrity, like for your field, that's really freeing. But usually you have to go through a lot of pain to get there. And I still have, you know, big, big food industry forces working to undo the good that I do in the world. But if your motivation is actually to help people, it doesn't hurt the way it is. As if your motivation is, I want to go get rich or I want to be famous or powerful, like all the ego driven stuff. But it takes, I think, a good amount of pain for most people to get there. And I know you faced a lot. I was just knowing you personally, I was kind of feeling for you there. Because if you look at where PR agencies come from. Do you know the history of PR in the us?

Well, tell me.

Well, it came from the Nazis and literally they were doing propaganda and post World War II, what's his name? Edward Binet.

Oh, yes.

Came over and this is like Freud's brother or cousin or something, and literally said, well, the propaganda word is burned. So we gotta come up with a new name. It's called Public relations. And these guys, they would do like the most evil things. So these PR agencies, the ones who were hired to discredit you, one of them was hired by a cigarette company to say, we need to increase sales. And they said, we've got you. So they hired a dozen of these crisis actors, like the ones they used to come out and cause trouble for you. But obviously from a generation before that. And it was in the 1920s when early feminism or suffragettes was coming up, and they got these women to get in line in March and smoke and say, well, if men can smoke, women can smoke too. And they called them Liberty Sticks. And within a year, most women were smoking in the US this was a blatant manipulation by the, like, people who were manipulating, you know, war footing stuff. Like it's gross what? They do.

Yeah.

By the way, you have a PR agency, don't you?

Do. Do I? I don't know. I don't think so.

You probably do. I'd be surprised if at some point you didn't or if your brand doesn't have true value.

We don't actually.

You have none. You've never had a PR agency?

Well, no, no. So I mean, like, maybe with like the publisher, like when I write a book.

There you go. That's what I'm talking about. So it's not like advertising and all that, isn't. I. I hire PR agencies for various companies at various times because you need them to fight against the other guys who do it. But like, it's the war of culture and public opinion. But the fact is, like, the world's most ninja level PR people who are trained to destroy reputations got sent after you and you stood the force against that. And here you are 10 years later with a brand that's succeeding and a reputation that is still good. And congratulations. Few humans can do what you did.

Thank you. Thank you. And I think it's just, it goes to that saying that, like, we're on the right side of history, where the truth is behind our message, you know, we're not on the wrong side of history. I think when you're on the wrong side of history, you do give up much easier. But when your mission is literally, like deep into your bones to the point where you will do anything to see this information out, I think that's, that's where people succeed, honestly. Because again, I just don't want anyone to feel like I used to feel. And that's what drives me every single day.

Like basic tired all the time, brain fog and sick and all that.

Yeah. You know, and then now that I have children, I feel like I have this legacy and this responsibility and the ultimate obligation to teach them the truth about the food industry. Like, ever since My daughter was 10 months old, I remember we were on a business trip in New York and she was in the airport, and we were in one of those little airport stores where there's all the candy lined up right on the ground. And she was crawling on the ground. She was playing with the Snickers and the Skittles and all that stuff, those wrappers. And even at that moment, I took it as a time to like, imprint in her brain what that was. I told her exactly what that was. Right? I was like, this is poison. This is junk food. These are the chemicals. And of course, she doesn't understand at 10 months old. But I'm telling you, everything we teach our kids between 0 and 7 makes an impact on who they become. And I just feel like we have this amazing opportunity that our parents did not to teach our kids the truth about what they're eating. And that's one of the reasons I wrote my latest book, it's out in October. Food Babe, Family. It's about how I raise my children and what we do on a daily basis to like navigate this over processed world. What would you say the percentage is of the people that eat like you in the world or even the United States, what would you say? 1%, half a percent, 2%?

It's probably around 1 or 2% or there, there was a recent piece that just came out like in the New York Times. It said 12% of people are, are eating 50% of North America's beef. And at the same time another article came out that said 12% of Americans are metabolically healthy. So maybe it's 12%.

Yeah, maybe. I, I hope it's that high, right? I hope it's that high.

Yeah.

But I don't know if it's that high. We just have a lot of work to do is what, you know the point of that? Right. Everyone's got to know the truth about food. And they need to know what the food manufacturers are doing behind the scenes. Like for example, the FDA when they ban trans fats because it's linked to 20,000 deaths and heart attacks a year. You know, when they do that kind of work, well, you got to think, well, what did the food industry do when they took out trans fats? What did they replace it with? Well, they ended up placing it with mono diglycerides, which is a similar molecule in your body, still acts like trans fats in your cells, which are clogging your arteries, you know, disrupting your indigestion in your gut. So it's just like, it's unbelievable what's happening in the food industry. And then the majority of chemicals that have been invented over the last 50 years or so are there for just one purpose, and that's to preserve the food, make it uniform, make it taste better than it should because it's sitting on a shelf and it's not real food to make it mimic real food by adding flavoring to create an addictive quality of the food. Right. And so we eat more of it than we should. And so it's like made for all of these reasons, except for our health. You've been very specific on things Even real foods people should avoid. I've been more liberal, liberal with that definition in terms of. I really want people to just eliminate the processed foods. I really feel like the reason why some vegans and some meat eaters disagree so much because they do both probably feel really great because they eliminate most processed foods, right?

Unquestionably, if we eliminate processed foods first, everybody wins. What happened with me is I became a vegan, then a raw vegan with only unprocessed vegan foods. And it made me pretty sick. Sick as it does for a lot of people. But I was way better off on the vegan or the raw vegan diet than I was on the standard American diet. But I found it working sustainable. So what I, I don't want to do is guide people into a highly processed vegan food world because that the worst. Like, that's saltines.

Like, like, yeah, or beyond meat, you know, like.

And that's the worst possible thing. So what I'm looking to do is say I'm going to identify a set of things for my values which are I want to live way longer than you're supposed to and I want to perform really well and not everyone has to eat that way. But I want to identify like kind of a gold standard there and say, number one, that's what works for me. Number two, we all have different goals and different biology. And you as a mother of young kids, you have fundamentally different needs than I do. So we're starting to customize it. But truthfulness is what matters most and numbers and data. So that you cannot allow a big company to say monoides and trans fats don't make a difference. In fact, here have my, you know, plant based, you know, fake oat milk thing that raises your blood sugar as much as coke, right? Yeah, that probably isn't a good thing, but they're, they're using lies to try and convince us to do that. And what I'm looking to do is say, okay, let's have less processed food and let's know what each food does for each type of person. So what you're doing is you're teaching kids though, in your new book, which is interesting because you know who else does that trick? Tony the Tiger. Yeah, some listeners may not know Tony the Tiger, but when I was growing up watching cartoons on Saturday morning, Tony the Tiger would come on and tell you, what was he, what did he promote anyway? Tricks or something? Tricks or.

Oh, no, no, no. Frosted Flakes.

Frosted Flakes, thank you. I was more of like A Fruity Pebbles kid myself, but you know, there's all these, these things. And they know if they can get kids addicted when they're young. So my kids didn't watch tv, they just weren't allowed to. They could do audiobooks which don't have ads. And then I would also tell them to be like, oh, that's not food. Like that's a McDonald's. You just go there to pee, right?

Yeah. That's awesome. That's not food.

Yeah, they have chemicals in their food. But then something happened. My daughter was probably 6 or 7. Our nanny takes the kids to McDonald's drive thru not to get the food. She knows not to feed them fast food. But she wanted to get a latte, which is weird because there was free coffee, like bulletproof coffee. It was at my house, Danger Coffee, my new coffee brand. But it was funny. So my daughter's like, oh my God, you can talk to this box. And then like, and you can get food. And so the, our nanny orders the food and then my daughter rolls her winner and it goes, one Poopy Chemical latte please. Right? And then it's like, haha, I got away with it. But then our nanny was like, pretty pissed off, like, you know, feeling judged a little bit. My daughter's like, that's not food. So this is my question for you. Your kids, when they look at highly processed, you know, yoga mat bread and all this other nonsense that's out there, how do you teach them to be kind and accepting of people who don't know as much as they know?

Yeah, that is the name of the game right now. And it's, it's happening right now with my daughter, who's six. You know, she. An ice cream truck visits school and they sent out a note to parents ahead of time and they said, hey, we're going to have ice cream day this day. And I immediately, in like 2 nanoseconds, I was like writing back and I was like, I'll provide the ice cream for that day, right?

Yeah.

But the headmaster was like, no, we got it covered. And I'm like, should I push this or should I just let kids be kids? Like, you know, I just kind of let it go. And it was the end of the school year and the ice cream truck comes and Harley gets home from school and she says to me, she goes, mom, I want to let you know I picked the best option. I said, oh, really? What'd you pick? She said, I picked an ice cream sandwich because all the other things were brightly Colored. And I said, oh, that's great. Well, did you enjoy it? She goes, mom, it was double the size of the ones we get at home. Because, like, the little small ones are, like, organic, right? And then they have the big tall ones. And I go, oh, wow, it was double the size. She's like, yes, it's. It was so good. And I just left that conversation with, like, the best feeling in the world that she, at 6 years old, thought about her decision, chose something not brightly colored because of the fact that she knew it was conventional and it wasn't like, you know, it was a ice cream truck. And she made that decision on her own. But what did I do after she told me that? I went to the Internet and I typed in Good Humor ice cream sandwich. What would be in a typical ice cream sandwich? What do you think's in there?

Well, you've got to have skim milk full of glyphosate and no good fat. You gotta have canola oil, high fructose corn syrup.

I'm sorry, all of it, Right.

Thickener, gum, tons of.

Oh, yeah, Carrageenan. Yeah, yeah, Yep, all of it. Right? It has all the bad stuff, but then on top of it, they're putting dye to make it white. Vanilla ice cream. They're putting dye in to make the chocolate wafer caramel color level four. So, like, even though she thought she was making a better choice, she still was doomed. Right? And of course, I didn't have the heart to tell her because I want her to think critically and think about these things on her own. And I don't want to, you know, persuade her too much. I do want to educate her, but it was awesome because she made that decision. She didn't say anything else about anyone else's, and she was kind about it. Right? But there are going to be those situations where she asks me, and she has already where she asked me, why does this mom not know about this? Right? Why does this mom allow this and you don't? And why don't you buy this? Right? And that's the point in time where I tell her about values. Like, this is a value of our family. We highly value this. Because I've been super sick in my life, and I don't want you to experience that. And so this is a value in my life. That person probably hasn't gone through that lesson yet, and maybe they will and maybe they won't. But you're lucky in that I'm your mom, and you get all this information and so you get to feel the best.

You know, one of the things that you talk about in your book and one of the things that worked best for me as a parent, and I've got slightly older kids, so, like, I can share some stories that might be funny and relevant as a result of my kids, you know, being a little bit judgy, to be perfectly honest, about fast food. I said, all right, guys, we're going to go to McDonald's, and we're going to eat there. And I'm like, there's a reason people go to fast food. It tastes good. It's affordable, it's convenient. You know, they can be addicted to it. Maybe they just don't know. Like, there's all kinds of reasons. But let me be straightforward. It really does taste good. And you're going to get a toy, and we're going to have an ice cream sundae, and they're going to give you, like, a pie, and. And we're gonna have a hamburger. And I'm thinking to myself, I don't feel like shit for a week. Like, my stuff. But I'm gonna take one for the team. And I have these two cute little kids, and they look at me, and they look at each other, and they glare at me. Like, angry little kid faces. Like, really angry. Like, you know, kind of have kids. Like, they. They're cute when they glare because it's like a parody of a glare. And. And they go, what? Like, I'm gonna buy you, like, French fries. And they go, daddy, you can take us to McDonald's, but you can make us eat. And I go, whoa. Like, what are you talking about? It's gonna take.

How. How old were they at this point?

They were like six or seven.

Oh, my gosh. That's amazing.

But here was the reason they said, we know how we feel when we eat that kind of food. Food. We don't want our tummies to hurt. And it wasn't that the food wouldn't taste good. It's that they had learned the lesson that how you feel after you eat is what matters more than how the food tastes.

I mean, the food tastes good because it's engineered to taste so good. And it literally hijacks your taste buds to the point where it, like, triggers your brain to remember that flavor, know what it tastes like. When I still think of a chick fil. A chicken sandwich, which I haven't had in store so many years, my mouth starts watering. Because they use MSG as one of the first ingredients, right? And so it's what they do. And I have to laugh at the fact that it tastes good because I was doing a reel the other day for pumpkin spice latte. We, we came out with a new pumpkin spice truvani flavor. And so I was doing a reel where I was going back in time talking about what had happened at Starbucks and I, I had to buy a real PSL and take a sip of it and I spit it out as part of like the video. And it was so funny because I looked at my husband, I go, oh my gosh, this thing tastes so good. No wonder people are hooked on these things. Like, it's so good. It's like, you know, cocaine sugar into your veins. Right? So anyways, it was just, it was hilarious in that, like, you know, it, it was tasty.

So it's, it's funny. You mentioned Starbucks. Another time we went to some kind of a restaurant that wasn't supposed to be a fast food place. But so many restaurants now that don't look like fast food restaurants, they all buy their food from Cisco Foods, which is basically fast food, but it looks prettier. So it's a restaurant supplier with pre made crap and all this stuff. And by the way, my restaurant in LA that I shut down after the pandemic, that only did grass fed stuff, we also were forced to buy some barons from Cisco because they have monopoly on restaurant supply.

Right.

But a lot of their ingredients are just not okay.

Right. And they're, and they're the ones supplying like rice already made in a bag, where you put that plastic bag in boiling water to make rice at a restaurant instead of making it like the old fashioned way. And then you wonder why you had so much exposure to like plastics in your life.

Oh, totally. Restaurants have all sorts of nasty stuff unless you're really watching carefully. So we went to a place like that and they had MSG in the food. So my daughter's had exactly one migraine in her life and she was around that same age before the McDonald's experience. And she's sitting in the back of the car like freaking out because she's like, what is going on inside my head? I'm like, oh my God, this is a migraine. So we pulled over to a Starbucks and I went in and got a double espresso and three packets of sugar. I did sugar in the raw, which is nominally 1% better than white sugar, stirred them in there and gave them to her. Because it turns out that sugar and caffeine will treat a migraine pretty effectively. So she drinks it and she goes, this is the worst coffee ever. Blah. And then five minutes later, her migraine went away. And that's the only time she's ever had Starbucks coffee. And thank you, by the way, for fixing the PSL at Starbucks, for getting to take that caramel coloring out. But I wouldn't give her that. But it's funny, it was that experience of getting msg. So one thing I have done with the kids, like, okay, you really want that much sugar? Let's have a sugar day. Like, let's triple down on it. You want fast food, let's just do it. And then let's look at how you feel. It doesn't take very long for kids to know, oh, you're in charge of how you feel. It starts with what you put in your mouth. So I love the idea of using a book to help kids understand that. But talk to me about parents, because let's say parents understand it, but then the neighbors are shaming you, the teacher is shaming you for feeding kids healthy. I know how you would handle that. You'd probably just tell them to F off and like go light their house on fire, same as me. Like, how do you recommend normal people do this?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, now I'm kind of, I'm too well known in a way to like, people don't invite me places, right? So like, you know, if, if they eat conventionally and they're ordering Bojangles, if, if something like that's happening and it's a friend of mine, she'll text me in advance, she'll be like, heads up, we're ordering Bojangles for this. I know it's not food babe approved, but we're also getting these bagels from this place or this place or you know, we're doing this just to let you know, heads up, which is like so kind and nice that my, my close friends will do that, you know, and like, let me know what the food options are somewhere. But, but also, I don't always need to know. Like, because I am who I am. I like, come prepared in advance. Like, I don't ever show up with my food babe pants down, right? Like, I always have them up ready to go. I'm prepared. I got snacks in my bag. You know, I've got snacks hidden all over the house so that they're like ready. Like if I'm headed out the door, they're right by the door. Like, I have these like pre made packs of, of that. They're organic olives. It's this brand Gaia. And they have black and green. It's like three ingredients. Organic olives, sea salt and lemon. I mean, can you get anything better than that in terms of a snack that you can give your kids on the go? I have those little epic wild salmon sticks, like ready to go to give the kids, you know, so it's not like this, like, endless barrage of goldfish. Like, you know, goldfish are like banned in my house. Like, don't even fucking bring a goldfish in here. I don't want to see a goldfish. Right. There's a million better snacks than goldfish. And actually talk about that in the book. And I share a list of 100 more that are better than goldfish. Right.

Never give this to my kids. And not as a special treat or anything. They're just like, like scrambling your kids brains. Like you just msg, orange food coloring. Like, seriously.

Yeah. And not to mention, it's just pure white flour. It gets stuck on the roof of your teeth. And that's actually the reason a lot of dentists believe there's so many cavities in kids. It's not actually like candy or other things. It's like goldfish, because it's just it act. The white flour acts just like sugar, but it's much more sticky in terms of how it sticks into little children's teeth. Wow.

As a parent, one of the things that I don't think gets talked about enough, if you want to have peace of mind, don't feed your kids sugar, colors, chemicals, and additives, because it makes kids go insane. And then they act crazy around you, and then you don't get to sleep, and then they're farting all night and their tummy hurts, and you don't get to sleep, and you never get any peace in your life. But when you feed your kids. Right. One of my kids came home from school and was like, as soon as I get to school, the teacher tries to make us eat. She goes, I just had breakfast. I don't want to eat. I'm. I'm not hungry. Why do all the kids, other kids want to eat? I said, well, ask them what they had for breakfast.

Cereal.

Yeah. Or a green apple or cereal or something. Like, what did you have? Well, bacon and eggs. Well, maybe that's why you're not hungry, because they don't know to have breakfast anymore.

Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I just think about, like what my daughter had for breakfast this morning. She had a smoothie with coconut yogurt, avocado, spinach, mango, and then she Had French toast made from Ezekiel bread and pasture raised eggs, which, you know, I let the eggs, like, soak overnight. So there's like two eggs concentrated in that one little piece of toast, right? So it's like, awesome amount of protein first thing in the morning. And she's, like, ready to go, right? Sometimes I'll do chicken, sausage, some other things. I haven't eaten beef since I was in. In high school. I gave it up for religious reasons. And so I'm always looking for other ways to get protein in my kids, right? And my husband does eat beef and he'll make beef for, like, the kids. But I'm just not good at preparing it. So it doesn't show up in a lot of my recipes because of that. But it's like, I know it's super healthy, right? And we create. We created a Trubani collagen, you know, made out of bovine, because we know it's super healthy. But it's. It's so interesting. You know, you also mentioned cereal and Kellogg's and in Tony the Tiger, and I would be remiss if I don't mention this. Like, Kellogg's and you've mentioned this many times on your social media, is like one of the most evil companies of the world. Like, literally, I can't think of somebody. I mean, obviously there's Monsanto, but in terms of really targeting children, they are the worst. To the point where in 2015, I petitioned them to remove artificial food dyes in BHT from their packaging. And they said that they would do it. And they said that they would do it by 2018. Right? By 2018. They gave themselves three years to do it. They didn't do it.

Course not.

And they already make the same cereals overseas without artificial dyes and bht. They already make healthier cereals for everybody else in Europe, but not here in America, their own American citizens. And so I think this is so unethical and hypocritical. And then on top of it, what they did do is instead of, like, fixing what they said that they were going to fix and they lied about it, they started creating new cereals that were more hip to children today, like Baby shark and Unicorn, so that children of today that, you know, aren't used to the old characters would, like, you know, gravitate towards these new characters that are popular and create cereals with artificial dyes and just a bunch of sugar and a bunch of crap in it. And it's. It's amazing because when I tell people my kids have never had a cereal. They're like, what? Like, not Cheerios? Nothing. I was like, they've never had a cereal. Never.

And your kids are so much calmer than their kids as a result. Like this. This is a selfish act for parents. Feed your kids food like protein and good fats and unprocessed foods, and your quality of life goes up. They argue with you less. They punch each other less. They pull their hair less. They smear feces on the wall less. And all the gross stuff that kids do that every parent knows about, they. They get in trouble at school less. Their grades are higher. Your burden of trivial parenting, like, the gross parts of parenting that no one likes, that goes down dramatically.

Yeah.

Spend 10% more on higher quality food for your kids, and seriously, you will have peace in your life that you have before.

I know people always wonder, like, Bonnie, you travel all over the world with your kids. Like, how do you travel with two kids and not, like, kill yourself? And it's like, my kids are amazing travelers. You know, I give them good food, I bring good snacks. I'm prepared. And they are trained to be, like, good travelers because I've made them that way. And it's like, if. If parents realize. I just feel like there's such an amazing opportunity for parents to realize that, like, you really can mold your kids into whoever you want them to be. And, like, you can, you can even, like, hypnotize them in a way or like, you know, brainwash them in a way and tell them about the dangers of cigarettes and drugs and like, all of this kind of stuff. Like, when they're little, to the point where they can really, when they get older, they really. Those values will hold true later on in life. And that's. That goes for food, too.

They will hold. And for me, I've been just teaching them, like, you're in charge of how you feel, and there's no way that I am going to or can police everything that you're going to eat as a teenager. You just need to know what it does. And if you decide you're going to take the hit, you decide you're going to take the hit.

So have you been in situations with your kids where they want to do what the other people are doing? Like the, like, if they have a group of friends and they're stopping off at some fast food place, like, are they getting the fast food? What's happening with, like, their friend group? And like, what's. Because that's. I feel like there's a lot of peer Pressure during those years.

I'm not sure that I'm a good person. Asthma. I mean they are my kids and they're truth based and like reality based. So literally like there was a ski trip that the kids are going on and they're like, I know it's gonna be hard to get enough good quality protein and good quality fat. So I'm going to bring this. One of my kids has these two like three ounce vials that they bring to school. And one of them is full of amino acid and protein powders because schools just don't provide enough meat because it's expensive even though it's a very good school they go to. And the other one is full of danger coffee that's pre ground because the coffee at school is gross in high school. And she's like, I'll just brew my own. I'm like, okay, I taught her to do that at airports, right? But so it's, it's like they've become self sufficient. But the deal is at home you can have a really good breakfast and if you need, you know, steak or eggs or whatever, like let's get your protein, like get you satisfied and then let's make sure that you know how to eat the good stuff at lunch that's there, there won't be enough or the right stuff. And let's make sure that you have something with you if you choose. And if you just want to eat whatever's there, you can do it. But they know how good they normally feel and they know what happens if they don't do it. So even though they're at a really nice boarding school, even though they live at home and so they're eating at a high end cafeteria, looks like Hogwarts. The difficulty is the quality of fats and the quality of proteins and so they do their best and they know it's not perfect, but it's good enough. And teaching kids that making the best choice of what you have, like your daughter did, which is so admirable, you know, even though maybe she didn't win on, you know, the Good humor ice cream, but doing your best and choosing a graceful degradation instead of what most kids learn, which is either you do it perfectly, which is impossible because perfect is, you know, you can never quite get there or you've failed and you might as well just eat garbage. So there's a big line between like, you know, eating the lowest quality food you can get and well, you know, it wasn't grass fed so I couldn't eat. No. Okay, well Just eat the lean cut of non grass fed meat because it was the best you could do with where you were and just be okay with it. And it's right. There's not a sense of doom or gloom or failure. It's just like a sliding switch and you did the best you could. And you know, maybe you took some activated charcoal if your gut didn't feel good and you're okay. But just knowing that you're empowered and that you get to choose how you feel and how you eat and how you sleep are big variables. Whether you exercise a little bit, whether you drink enough water. So all those, all kids can do that.

Yeah. And that self empowerment was something that I was lacking. I definitely in my early years of life, I just was doing what everybody else was doing and teaching our kids that they're empowered to make these decisions and that they, that these decisions actually impact, you know, how you feel and how you look and all of those things. Like, it, I think is really important to teach because I remember I was like in the corporate world right out of college and they were catering in like breakfast, lunch and dinner so that we would bill the client, the big banks, like throughout breakfast, lunch and dinner. So we would just like eat really quick, then get back to work so they could build more hours. And so, you know, I was eating like big spreads of like, you know, muffins and bagels for breakfast. Then at lunch I was eating big spreads of barbecue with like, you know, the bun and like all of the fixings and the sides and the banana pudding and like all of that. And then at dinner they were bringing in Italian with like, you know, all the things that are just, you know, just super white, refined flour, heavy. And then at night when we would work late, the only thing that's open, Krispy Kreme, so the donuts would come in. And so like this diet that was so heavily processed and just devoid of nutrients made me so incredibly sick and actually led to my appendicitis. And at the time people thought appendicitis was like a random thing and like you don't need your appendix. Like it's not, it's not a useful organ. Like, well, why the hell did God put it there then, right? Like, why in the world did he put it there? And when I finally started researching my health for myself, I found out the appendix is there to populate your gut with good bacteria. You need your appendix, actually, and I don't have mine now. So I got to be extra careful in terms of how I handle that right. So anyways, it's just. All the bullshit that we're fed is just gotta stop.

In my career in Silicon Valley when I was a computer hacker before becoming a biohacker, there was a company called Sun Microsystems. And in the early.

Oh, I know, I interviewed in sun in Boston. I almost got a job there.

Oh, my gosh. Okay, so they were like one of the big companies that made the servers a while ago, like the. The Web 1.0, when it was the Facebook and Google and Hotmail and all that. You know, they're a major player and Oracle ended up buying them and, you know, they kind of whatever happened, but they were like one of the equivalent of as big as Google and as important as Google today. But in the 90s. So sun had offices right down the road. And what they would do is they would not allow a pasta salad lunch to be ordered for their employees unless it was in the executive briefing center in sales. So when someone would come in for a negotiation, they would feed the other side Fasta with msg so that they would be all stupid after lunch and tired and their willpower go down and they could get better deals.

That is amazing. That is amazing.

It's super cool. But check this out. I have a new product idea for you. It's an April 1st offering. It's called Evil Vani. And it's all of the bad stuff that you've had taken out of foods put into a special wafer to give to people you don't like. Isn't this a good idea?

It'll have azodicarbonamide carbocolor, level 4 MSG glyphosate. Yeah, it'll be great.

High fructose corn syrup. And it's like. But we'll put like, a tiger and like, like, I don't know, some sort of, like, mermaid pail. And like, it'll be attractive, you know, to give it to the kids of parents you don't like. Perfect.

No, Terrible. That's funny. That is really funny.

I think your April Fools is right there. But I mean, here's the deal. You can control how you feel this way. Big companies are trying to control how you and your kids feel because they want you to feel hungry and tired all the time so you'll buy more of their crap so, like, we can do better. And I think your book brings that out in a major way, even though.

I still think I wish I had your copy. I know you have a digital, but here's the real copy for anyone who's Watching this.

I don't know. The real copy.

Yeah. You're gonna be getting it soon. It just came up hot off the press. Just got it this weekend.

Oh, cool. Isn't it kind of a good feeling? I know it's your third book.

Fourth. Fourth book.

Fourth book. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah.

I think I'm on eighth.

Oh, my gosh. Overachiever.

Well, it's just like, when. When a book needs to be written, you write it. But, like, that feeling of seeing it in print, it's. I don't know. There's something special about that.

First time you see it, it really was. And, like, I got the galley copy that's like the flimsy, not hardcover, not awful color copy. And it was just, like, very underwhelming. And when. When this came, I looked at my husband, I was like, I think I have, like, 10 more of these in me. Like, it's just a feeling where, you know, this is, like, my legacy that I want to leave my kids. I want to leave their kids. I want people to know that, like, there is another lifestyle out there. Yes. We might be the 1 or 2% or 12% of people out there that, you know, eat this way, but there's a way to navigate this world. There's a way to handle all the tricky situations when you travel, when you're in schools, when you're at parties. And I want people to feel like there's a community of people that have each other's backs, and we're. We're in it together, and we're here to, like, share all the really good brands with each other so that, like, we know what we're eating. Right. There's so many great brands out there that are creating such awesome stuff. Like, so we were talking about Goldfish. I have no affiliation with this company at all, but I just was so impressed with it. What? They just came up with Simple Mills. I don't know if you know the brand Simple Mills, but they just came out with a. A goldfish lookalike that's a diamond shape instead, and it's called a pop Em. And the main ingredients in there are organic butternut squash and organic red bean.

Oh, wow.

And cassava flour. So it's like, wow. Like, there's actually, like, some nutrition in here. It's not just complete refined flour dosed with MSG and coloring. Right. The color is actually coming from the butternut squash. Right. So it's just. It's so cool. Cool to see.

It's amazing that if you wanted to replicate any Kind of junk food with healthy ingredients. It's oftentimes, but not always possible. You can also, like, make an Oreo if you really, really wanted to. This can be a lot better than an Oreo, but it's probably not going to be as good as, like, a properly made some other kind of cookie with better ingredients for parents. Look, you don't have to be perfect either. That's an important thing. Your kids are going to have some sugar sometimes, right? Just pair it with some protein and some good fats instead of bad fats. And, you know, if they had some, it wasn't honey, it was sugar. Look, they're going to be okay, right? So it's a question of degree, and it's a question of, like, forgiveness and relaxing of yourself as a perfectionist parent if you have those perfectionist tendencies. Dude, kids eat cat poop if you let them when they're little. You've probably seen them try, like, oh, Tootsie Rolls. No, those aren't Tootsie Rolls. Like, they do all sorts of weird stuff. So nothing bad's gonna happen if your kid skips a meal because they're misbehaving. And, like, I'm not gonna eat that. We're like, well, then let's intermittent fast. We can do that together. Yeah, do that once and your kids will stop being so picky. But then just not worrying about it if it's not perfect and just doing your best and just being okay with that and then monitoring how your kids did and realizing that wasn't worth it or it was worth it and just living your life. So that's something that, as a parent of kids who are, you know, preparing to go out into the world on their own, it's the lack of perfectionism in parenting that makes parents happier. And so I think that's worth talking about.

Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. And I'm definitely not a perfect parent and. But I try to just model the behavior that I want to see in my kids because they're looking at you and trying to figure out the world, and they're really modeling right after you. And it's like, you know the saying, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. It really is true. Like, your habits are going to create their habits. So, like, if you're going in the pantry before dinner and snacking on chips or whatever, they're going to want those too, Right? So you really have to model the behavior if you want to sit down for your meals without devices and all that kind of stuff. And to include Encourage, like, good eating habits. You have to do that, too. You have to put the phone away. Like, there's so many things that you know as an adult, like, you can have really bad habits, but when you have kids, it's like a mirror back into, like, your bad habits. And so you. You suddenly realize that, like, everything I do, they're watching and they're going to emulate this behavior. So, like, what can I do to create, like, the best little humans possible?

You're right. It starts with them copying and they're watching. I mean, how old is your oldest now?

Six.

Six. Okay. It starts to accelerate from now because around five, they kind of drop out of that delta state and they get more into, like a kind of a dreamy state and start entering into an alpha brain state, and they're more and more aware. So suddenly they're much more critical of your language and they notice the little things and they hold you accountable and you get a mirror of yourself. And it's such a miraculous time because they're still, like, worshiping you, but they're also doing what you said and reminding you of it. My language was already pretty good because I taught them we don't use the word, you know, impossible or can't because it just means you don't know how to do it. It doesn't mean you can't do it. And I'm very precise about that. And I was really good, but, man, they got the other 10% of the time when I would unconsciously use those words. And it was really good for me as a parent. But what you're going to find over the next little while is that they add another level of reflection to you as a parent, which is really beautiful. And if you have a bad habit that you're not aware of, they will find it and shine a giant spotlight on it for you, which is awesome.

Yeah.

As a parent, so my kids have taught me a lot, and I know yours will teach you something, too.

I want to meet your kids.

We'll make adsense time. Come to the biohacking conference. It's finally this summer. We can do it. It's end of May in Dallas.

Okay.

And if you come, I'm sure we can hook you up with some time on stage or something. But then I'm doing it so people can hopefully bring their kids during that time, because that's fun to let kids see. Parents biohacking.

Yeah, no, it would be really cool. Be great.

Awesome. Where can people find your new book other than obvious places like Amazon and.

Barnes and yeah, everywhere books are sold, you can get it on, you can come to the website foodbabefamily.com we have some amazing bonuses we're giving out for anyone who pre orders. And I'm actually giving out 50 additional recipes into the hundred that are already in here. Every single recipe has a colored photograph that was really important to me because I want people to know how they're how what they're making and what they're doing. And the first half of the book is all guidebook on what we do as a family. So it's an intimate look into my family and how we navigate this over processed world. So I'm really excited for people to check this out. I feel like together we can stick it to the multi billion dollar corporations out there that are continuing to feed us poison. And if we choose better, healthier options, we can really start putting our money in the right direction and continue to create brands that are really changing the landscape and creating really great products.

So we can indeed. I know that your your mission is, is for the right reason and for the right cause. And I think you've had a massive impact on food safety and quality, probably more so than the regulatory agencies responsible for allowing these companies to do it in the first place. And I know it's costs you a lot personally emotionally. It has me too because it you're going up against massive courses but you have the power of actually being right and of actually helping people that will keep your sales full whenever it feels like. It's just getting to be a lot. And this is an invitation to you for to do two things. If someone pulls some bad crap again on you or on me. Number one, you can always reach out to your fans because you have fans here amongst my fan base and amongst your own. They'll back you. And 95% of them never say anything, but they still back you. And I think you figured that out by now.

Yeah.

The other thing you could do is reach out. Just call me like and you can call other people like me like we know who the real people are and you're one of the real people. Even if you eat kale?

Yeah, even if that kale every day. No, I'm just kidding. I don't eat it every day, but.

All right. Thanks again, Bonnie. It was a really great reconnect.

Oh, it was so great. Thank you.

You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey.