No Grain, No Pain: Remove Gluten to Improve Your Health – Dr. Peter Osborne | 1140 | Dave Asprey

How much dairy and gluten allergy do you think is tied to other environmental things that mimic it, like mold?

I think a lot of things. I think where a lot of people could probably get away with eating some gluten periodically, even if they were gluten sensitive. Genetic predisposition. They react because they're so unhealthy in so many other ways and so many other choices. Right. They don't exercise well, they don't get sunshine, they don't go to bed on time, they don't have a good diet overall. They just have a bad plan for good health. And so they are less resilient to their ability to take a hit or to take a punch. Gluten is going to give you a punch. My opinion is gluten's going to give you a punch really, no matter who you are, even if you're not really genetically predisposed. Not because gluten is doing the punching, but because there are so many other elements of grain, as you mentioned, mycotoxins. I mean, it's a very heavy, mycotoxin laden food. You know, the different types of toxins that mold produces. And, and so you get exposure to mycotoxins through heavy grain consumption. So if you are mold sensitive or if you also have mold in your home, you're. You're getting it from your environment, you're getting it from what you're eating. Then you're feeding the wrong kinds of microorganisms in your GI tract that are producing chemicals that, you know, drill microscopic holes in your gut lining. Then you start becoming allergic to everything.

You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey. You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey. Today we're going to talk about big foods, fight to keep gluten in your diet even if you don't want it, and why they're doing it, why they're actually bad people. Okay, we're not going to actually talk about why they're bad people. Maybe they're just misguided people with a profit motive. Whatever the deal is, we'll talk about what gluten does for you and doesn't do for you, despite the fact that gluten is a plant based protein. And our guest today is Dr. Peter Osborne. He's known as the gluten free warrior and he speaks all over the world about nutritional health. He's a doctor of chiropractic, doctor of pastoral science and board certified with the American Clinical Board of Nutrition for whatever that's worth. Dr. Osborne, seriously, the American Clinical Board of Nutrition. Aren't these the guys telling us to eat a bunch of crap?

No, that's the American Dietetic Association.

Oh, no, those guys are like the cancer causing people. The nutrition guys weren't that good either. The dietitians are. They're out to lunch. They're like McDonald's and Jello and hospitals.

Like, screw those guys.

But are nutritionists like, aren't they tons of eat like soybeans and whole food and plant based nonsense now?

Pretty much. And their biggest sponsors are Oreo cookies and, you know, Nestle and some of the other, like, junk food that, you know, gets put out there and gets pushed as healthy or even if it's not as healthy as not dangerous. Right. So sometimes it's the lie that's not spoken that's the bigger liar, the bigger threat.

There are a lot of people listening who believe that if you don't have celiac disease, gluten's fine for you. And I was one of those many, many years ago before I determined that it was a major contributor to a lot of the problems I was having. It turns out I had a major toxic mold exposure, actually multiple ones. And I developed gluten sensitivity and dairy sensitivity. And when I eat gluten, I just do not do well cognitively. You know, I. I don't get wrecked. If I eat European gluten in the US I get wrecked immediately. And that's probably glyphosate plus gluten. But is it, is it true that if you feel okay when you eat gluten, that it's just not harming you because you're not sensitive?

Not necessarily. So there's, there's different nuance to this question because there's gluten sensitivity, which is not a disease, but a genetic predisposition. And then there's celiac disease, which is the active autoimmune disease that affects the small intestine when you eat enough gluten over enough time and create an autoimmune reaction. But there's a whole huge body of literature on something called non celiac gluten sensitivity, which. Gluten can cause neuropathy, can cause nerve damage, migraine headaches, fatty liver disease. Gluten can cause myalgias, muscle pain. It can mimic rheumatoid arthritis and scleroderma and dermatomyotitis and ankylosing spondylitis. So you may not have any of those things. Right. There's a, there's a, A Protein, when you digest gluten that's broken down, called exorphin. Some people call it gluteomorphin. And it looks like morphine. It attaches to morphine receptors. And so what happens with some people is when they eat gluten, it, because it behaves like morphine, it masks its own toxicity. Very sneaky thing, right? And so you could, you could have this affect and really be okay until the damage is so great that the morphine effect kind of wears off and no longer works very well for you. And then symptoms start to come in. This is why a lot of people eat gluten for 20 years. And then all of a sudden they're like, well, why now? Why did it happen now? Well, because your body was so inflamed by it for so many years that it could no longer put the fire out. And so it decided to let you know in a much more aggressive way by expressing symptoms.

That makes a lot of sense. In, in my case, I was one of those people with a gluteomorphin or exomorphin problem with gluten. So when I was in my twenties, desperate to lose a hundred pounds that I've lost, and I'm trying what we called the Atkins diet back then, which is an early version of the keto diet, but it allowed artificial sweeteners and bad oils and soy proteins. Like, it's not a carb you can eat, it doesn't work very well, but you can lose half your weight on that. And I also had learned about cheat meals. And you'll see guys like Tim Ferriss, who's been on the show a couple times, you know, in four hour, Body talks about, I'll just have a cheat meal once a week. And I still see people doing this. So I'm like, I'm going to do my cheat meal. It was Friday nights, I go to a place, a steakhouse in Silicon Valley that was kind of an institution there for a very long time. And I would get this grass fed ribeye, lots of fat, gorgonzola butter, but I eat a loaf of French bread and then I'd be fine. The next day I'm like, see, I'm bulletproof. You know, not really. Didn't have the company yet, but you get the vibe. And then on Monday I'd have the worst brain fog and I would crave bread. I'd have to have bread just as one piece, one piece. And I'd have like three or four days of cravings and I just stand up to Them usually. And I finally noticed after like a year of this, you know what, it's like an addiction. I get it, and then I want it all the time, but if I just have some other kind of carb, I don't get the addiction. And it was a couple years later that I learned that gluteomorphine. So the cravings for bread, like the ones you just can't let go of, those are probably a little bit more morphine oriented than most people admit, right?

Yeah, I would say definitely morphine. Darren does the same thing. There's caseomorphin, which is a byproduct of casein breakdown. But you. You have that. And then what a lot of people also have, that's a little bit different, is they have a candida or other type of yeast overgrowth. And those microorganisms can hijack your vagus nerve and really send a message through it to tell your brain, give us some food, eat sugar, eat carbs. And so that too. Yeah.

And, and, and it's funny, both sensitivity to dairy and gluten and candida are linked to having toxic mold in your home. They're not. It's not the only cause by a long shot, but I had, at the time when I was doing all this, I lived in a home that had stachybotrys, which is one of the really bad molds. And it's. It's amazing. Since then, I've had mold in so many houses. Once you know it, you know how it makes you feel, you know what it does to your immune system, you start. Start becoming aware of it. I did a documentary, moldymovie.com, it's a free thing, but I flew over the country, guys. This is real. And I interviewed doctors, I interviewed people who'd been affected, like me, just normal people doing their life. And all of a sudden, it's like someone punches you in the face and even you develop food allergies you didn't have. How much dairy and gluten allergy do you think is tied to other environmental things that mimic it, like mold?

I think a lot of things, I think where a lot of people could probably get away with eating some gluten periodically, even if they were gluten sensitive. Genetic predisposition. They react because they're so unhealthy in so many other ways and so many other choices, right? They don't exercise well, they don't get sunshine, they don't go to bed on time, they don't have a good diet overall. They Just have a bad plan for good health. And so they are less resilient to their ability to take a hit or to take a punch. Gluten is going to give you a punch. My opinion is gluten's going to give you a punch, really, no matter who you are, even if you're not really genetically predisposed, not because gluten is doing the punching, but because there are so many other elements of grain. As you mentioned, mycotoxins. I mean, it's a very heavy mycotoxin laden food. You know, the different types of toxins that mold produces. And so you get exposure to mycotoxins through heavy grain consumption. So if you are mold sensitive or if you also have mold in your home, you're. You're getting it from your environment, you're getting it from what you're eating. Then you're feeding the wrong kinds of microorganisms in your GI tract that are producing chemicals that, you know, drill microscopic holes in your gut lining. Then you start becoming allergic to everything. I lost a house to mold. So when we were in mold and my, my wife was starting to have major, like, breakdown because my wife's very healthy and she's a crossfitter and she eats well. She eats like we do. Right? She eats fantastically well. And she, and she cares about her health. And so all of a sudden she can't get off the couch, she can't finish the sentence. She's starting to start to have food allergic reactions. So I run some food allergy tests on her. She's allergic to everything, the whole test, everything. So it's at that point, you know, we started to get this waft of must odor that was coming through one of the wall cavities. And that's, that's what turned us on, obviously, to, to looking at mold or looking for mold as a potential reason. And we had two in one of our wall cavities. 250,000 spores per cubic meter of airspace as we pumped it out. And it was a mixture of Penicillium, aspergillus, stachybotrys, and I mean, it's one.

Of the two most dangerous. So that stuff will really mess you up. And I've had all three of those in my homes as well. And yeah, they make you actually kind of feel like you're going crazy. You get strong anxiety, you get nightmares, you get nosebleeds, and you get mast cell activation syndrome, which is basically your immune system reacting to everything, including all the food. It's the root Cause of chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia. And it, it's that mast cell activation syndrome is also the same thing that happens in long ovid, which you could never say.

Yeah, I've seen, I've seen about a hundred cases of that in the past year. And every one of them was people that went home to try to recover from being sick, and they had a moldy house and they couldn't recover. So, yeah, the mold, the. The virus, if you will, sent them over the edge. And the mold kept them over the edge.

Yep. And so the interactions between mold and environmental toxins, your immune system and gluten and to a certain extent, casein from milk. It's a real thing. And a lot of functional medicine doctors know this. I feel like some longevity doctors know this, but they're like the A4M longevity doctors, not the, you know, the. I'm a longevity doctor, but all you can do is exercise and take statins kind of. Of longevity doctor. I find some very Western guys are trying to infiltrate functional medicine and longevity and say they're doing longevity when they're actually lites. So I'm doing my best to identify the people making us live longer versus the people who think we can't. So you should lift, because that's nonsense.

Yeah, yeah.

Now, when you're talking to those audiences in the functional medicine and longevity worlds, um, what. What percentage of. Of those practitioners do you think are really, truly aware of. Of the role toxic mold is playing in their patients?

Oh, less than 10%. Easy.

Less than 10.

Yeah.

I, I try to find the good ones. Like, like, Ann Shippy's been on the show, Jill Carnahan's been on the show. Like, like really people understand environmental toxins and mold. Had a couple guys talking about mold testing, and it's an important part of biohacking. Right. Change the environment around you and inside, you'd have control of your own biology. The environment around you is full of mold. So now you're allergic to gluten more than you already were because it wasn't good for you in the first place, but you could probably handle it. And those interactions are the ones where I never trust big pharma or big food to know or care about those glyphosate.

It's in your soil, water, and food. It's awful for people, and it's just as bad for your pets. Dogs spend all day with their noses down. They're scavenging and sniffing in glyphosate heavy areas like lawns, po parks, apartment Common areas where no one should be allowed to spray that stuff anyway. But your dog probably gets more exposure to glyphosate than you do. The good news is that you can biohack your furry friends too. Beam Minerals makes a canine mineral supplement specifically designed to detox dogs from glyphosate. Beam Minerals contains humic compounds. They originate in the soil and bind to glyphosate to deactivate and remove it from your dog's body for good. Best of all, it's a flavorless liquid. So all you have to do is add a few drops to your dog's food in about 30 seconds a day. You can help your dog detox from glyphosate and live a longer and healthier life. Not a rough one. To enhance your pet's microbiome and support its overall well being, give Beam Mineral pets a try. Go to beamminerals.com dave2024 and save 20 off your first order.

We have some other problems going on with gluten in in the US And I think you're uniquely suited to talk about them because you started the gluten free society. Tell me a little bit about what this society is, what it does, why you started it. And then I want to go into some of the nefarious things that Big Food is doing.

Yeah, I started originally because in my practice I was observing people initially would go gluten free. You know, we test them, they were gluten sensitive. We take them gluten free. And this was like 20 years ago. So this was before every grocery store had a gluten free aisle. Right. But there was this transition period when the grocery stores were starting to come online with processed gluten free garbage food. And so people would just go and they would buy the cornbread or the rice, pasta or you know, whatever it was. Right. Usually corn or rice. And what I would see clinically was these people would start to regress. Like they would, they would go gluten free. Initially there would be this analysis paralysis cause they didn't know what to eat. So it was, they were largely, they were eating meats, vegetables and nuts and some fruits. And so they were feeling tremendously better. And then they would find the gluten free substitute aisles and then they would start digressing. And so I started looking at corn and rice a little bit more meticulously because you know, the FDA would tell you that gluten is only found in wheat, barley and rye and that oats and corn and rice are all okay. And then I started looking at molecular biology in terms of plants. And so there's another doctor by the same last name, Dr. Osborne, who's known. Known as the father of plant protein chemistry. And he actually is the doctor that isolated glutens and kind of defined them as the protein family of proteins found in the seeds of grass that are soluble in alcohol. And so I started looking at corn. I'm like, well, corn has a gluten protein called Zane, right? And it fits that category. And rice has a gluten protein in it called orzonin. And oatmeal has a gluten protein protein in it called avidin. So I'm like, why are we saying these ones are safe? Where's the research that actually shows that they're safe? And so I start combing through that literature and it's like, it's not at all definitive. And then I got a hold of some papers from researchers down in South America who are really studying corn because their concern was that people with celiac disease down there, where corn is a major staple, wouldn't get better. And if you looked at the literature on two and five year studies of people on traditional gluten free diets, which traditional I just refer to as wheat, barley and rye, true gluten free diet is a grain free diet. And these people, 92% of them failed to have remission or a healing of the villus atrophy. So if you look at celiacs going two, five years out, like, still not healing, they're symptomatically better because they've reduced quantitatively the amount of gluten that they're eating. Because if you look at, at how much gluten per protein, like if we look at wheat, 69% of the protein in wheat is gluten. If we look at rice, 5% of the protein in rice is gluten. So there's a, there's a dose. What.

How does that work?

It's. It's a type of gluten. Again, when we say gluten, it's a.

Glutenin, is what you're saying?

No, a glutenin is a specific sub fraction of the family of gluten protein.

So there's in the broad family of gluten. And do all the broad families of gluten do the same thing?

My. In my clinical experience, absolutely, yes. When you look at, at the medical le. When you look at the medical literature on. Okay, if we take a celiac, for example, and we do ige, iga, IGG IGM testing to see what they're reacting to. Generally they're only testing gluten, which is actually technically gliadin, which is gliadin is the name of the gluten found in wheat. So when, when somebody does a celiac test, they're only really, technically, they're only measuring for the gluten in wheat, they're not measuring for the gluten in rye, they're not measuring for the gluten in barley. Right. Because there's, there's 40 in, in, in barley. And, and, and so you, you have a lack of accurate testing that gives kind of a, a false interpretation of what a person's actually reactive to. And everybody makes the assumption that it's gliadin, which is found in wheat. But because barley and rye have proteins that are very, very similar to gliadin, they fall in the same category of inflammatory. For celiacs, it's a generic message to say, go wheat, barley and rye free. And then you have the food industry that makes all this gluten free garbage food. They're funding money into these celiac research facilities. I found this out one year I had a patient that was at University of Chicago got a diagnosis and she got a gift basket that was full of ooties and char's bread. No offense to those companies, I don't care one way or the other. They're out there trying to do what they're trying to do. But to me, when you have a university that's supposed to be the expert in the diagnosis and they're not even at least broaching the conversation of corn and rice as a potential to cause inflammation, when there's at least a dozen studies that show that celiacs react to corn just as aggressively that they do to wheat and they're totally ignoring that. And there are people funding their research facilities who are selling corn based products. Now my mind starts turning into, okay, this is. Now we're getting into the realm of poor ethics and bad form. Right? Because these people with celiac disease have a fourfold increased risk of death, meaning there's a 400% chance they're going to have an early death when they're still eating gluten. And corn gluten I would include in that category. Rice gluten I would include in that category, even though again, rice by concentration is the lowest. Corn is 55% gluten protein called Zane.

Of the total protein of the protein, it's 50. The corn isn't 55% protein.

So no, no, no, no, no, no, it's of the protein in the corn. 55% of that protein is the gluten. Zane. Okay, and, and, and likewise with wheat. It's 69% of the protein in wheat is gliadin. And with again and with rice, it's 5%, et cetera, et cetera. So, you know, you have different grains that contain different types of glutens that nobody really differentiates. And, and, and they just assume they're safe without adequate or ample study. But when you do look at the studies that have been done, many of those show corn gluten causes inflammation in celiacs. We see oats, we know oats can cause inflammation in celiacs. We know that rice joke. We know that rice causes it.

I mean, there's brown or white, there must be a difference. Brown rice has more.

About the same. About the same, yeah. There's actually a condition called food protein induced enterocolitis, which rice is the most common food that causes that condition. Interesting. Yet most GI doctors will tell you that rice is hyperallergenic. And it's the one that you should choose of all the grains, if you, if you are celiac for that reason.

Well, quantitatively, it is the one you should choose. If you're going to eat a grain, it's 5% versus 55%. Right. So you're going to get a much smaller dose. Does the, does the variety of rice or cooking method matter?

Nobody's really looked at that. Nobody's really studied that and said, hey, does cooking this long reduce, you know, or denature the protein and disabled bread?

It doesn't mean it wouldn't in rice. And my, my gut says that white should be a little bit lower than brown. And I would bet you money there isn't a study that I'm aware of that short grain rice has less gluten than long grain rice, both from the way it feels in the mouth and just from the way it behaves in cooking. I'm a fan of white rice because especially if you cook it with, with oil, then like when you steam it, it makes a resistant starch that's generally good for the gut. And I, I, I found that most people tolerate it. So now you got me asking, like, lectins? You know, Dr. Gundry's a friend, he's been on the show, just was just on with Instagram with him, and he's like, all lectins are bad. I'm like, well, most people don't react to cucumbers. Almost everyone reacts to bell peppers or gluten. Right. So I'm wondering, we haven't differentiated the severity of the problem for each of these gluten type compounds or gladin type compounds. They're not actually glad, but they're in the gluten family. We'll say, has anyone done that work? Just say, how toxic is rice? Rice gluten versus corn gluten versus wheat gluten. Even based on genetics. Is that, is that just. No one knows?

No one knows. Nobody's. Nobody's dove that deep into the nuance of it clinically. What I can tell you is anecdote, right? Story after story after story. Like with, with rice. One time I had a little girl as an example. Her, her mom took her gluten free, traditionally wheat, barley, rye free. But she kept feeding her this, this like rice based protein mix. And, and it was mostly rice. There wasn't a whole lot of other like sugar and junk in it. And it was organic. But the little girl kept having these mysterious fevers. She'd spike like 104. She'd be in the ER every other weekend. And I'm like, quit giving her the rice. And the day she quit giving her the rice was the day the fevers went away. And I've got hundreds of hundreds of stories like that where, where rice.

Same thing with oats.

Same thing with oats, Same thing with corn. Corn, probably the worst.

Yeah, corn ruins me. I, I don't, I just don't touch corn. It's just not worth it.

The again, going back to one Del just to. Because you asked the question about has anyone delineated one. One study came out in 2012 on corn gluten. And it was a, it was a dual study. They were looking at mechanism of inflammation, but they were also looking at the genetics. And so they were looking at the genetics of celiac. And what they found is that people with celiac genes, actually the majority in the study that was done, reacted more to corn gluten than they did to wheat gluten. And so, you know, in that particular small scale of a study where they were looking at those different parameters, you could actually make an argument that corn gluten is actually worse. But nobody's done it with all the different types of.

I would rather. Geez, this is tough in the US they're both soaked in glyphosate. But if I'm going to eat something that's going to make me feel like crap, man, give me a good old crusty sourdough because it tastes better if I'm going to feel like crap the next day. And popcorn. It tastes good. That stuff is just ruinous. Like, I'd rather. Yeah, I'd rather have sourdough than cornbread, but I don't either. Either one. But I got to ask you this. In the US we have hard winter wheat or hard red wheat, which is higher in gluten. And apparently it's a more aggressive form of gluten. From what I understand, there's some nuances there I haven't read into. You go to Europe, you get soft red wheat and it's not soaked in glyphosate the way they do it here. So I can go over there. And I'm proud to say that on a recent trip to Turkey and uae, I might have eaten a couple kilograms of baklava, that it contained gluten and I didn't have any side effects from it. I didn't even gain weight from it. And it was delicious. I'm sure. My blood sugar went up and I advanced, glycated my tissues a little bit, but now there's drugs for that and it was well worth it. And I would do it again, just wouldn't do it regularly. So why did I not just get wrecked? Like, why didn't I get the. The morphine effect from that that I would get if I did that?

In the US there's so much nuance to beyond gluten as the conversation. So one we could argue, Dave, maybe you're not gluten sensitive, but that maybe you're actually reacting to some of the other things that, that are in certain types of grains. So. So for what you mentioned just now about, about the winter wheat soft, and some of them have more gluten in them. Part of it is what kind of fertilizer they use. There's research that shows the more nitrogen fertilizer that they use, you know, synthetic Haber Bosch produce nitrogen fertilizer, that you get a higher gluten content in that grain than you do from poop as a fertilizer. For example, less water, equal less water availability to the crop can equal more, more gluten to the crop. Then there's the, the research that is prior 1950, because we look at glyphosate, a lot of people just strictly jump right to glyphosate and say it's just glyphosate.

No, it's not.

Okay. It's not. Because in 1943, during World War II, there was a doctor by the name of William Dickey who had a wing of Celiac children that he was treating. And there was a grain ration because of the war. And all of you know, back at this time, celiac disease had no known cause. So you have to understand celiac disease, you would vomit and diarrhea until you were dead. So, you know, unless they figured it out. And he figured out that when grain was rationed, his patients recovered and when the ration ended, his patients got sick again. And he actually made really one. It was one of the first to make that observation. Now there were other researchers in Germany were making a different observation. They were making an observation with schizophrenia. So there's bread madness, which is classically, ergo, which is a type of mold that can contaminate bread. But that's not what I'm talking about. We're talking about schizoaffective disorder from exorphant. So this is going back to the gluteomorphin protein. And what they noticed during World War II and grain was rationed was that there was a dramatic decline in schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder. And when the war ended, the numbers went right back up. And so they also published that data in the 1940s. We didn't get glyphosate really heavily on any of our crops until the 1990s to any great extent. So how do you explain that, that 50 year gap without glyphosate and the effects that we were seeing on human health? And how do you explain too that the fact that we look at, if we look historically at the history of cereal. Cereal was invented in 1895 by post. He made grape nuts. And then Kellogg came along and he created corn flakes in his sanatorium where he had patients come, would come all over the world. And he was a Seventh Day Adventist, a staunch vegan, vegetarian type guy.

He was a religious radical who helped infiltrate our food system to put their religious beliefs to make us, to force us to eat what they believe is, is righteous for perverted reasons. Right?

Yeah, for the most part, yes. And so I'm not saying current Seven.

Day Adventists are perverts. I'm saying Kellogg was and his ilk and Post.

Yeah, good, good clarification. So, yeah, because I've got a lot of really good friends who are seven day.

Yeah, this is 120 years ago. A lot of religions were like still killing people, whatever.

Yeah, yeah. So he, he brought up, he brought up cornflakes and then, and then B.B. crone, who was a, who was a doctor in the early 1900s. It was about 10, 15 years after the advent of cereal started. That's why they named Crohn's disease. They named it after him because before that, there really wasn't this massive amount of inflammatory bowel disease that was occurring. So it was the cereal that was being processed. And then. And then by 1943, you've got, like, 40 years of processed cereal. The US government steps in and bans the sale of processed grain unless you add vitamin B1 and vitamin B3 and other other vitamins to it. Because it was responsible for about 9,000 malnutrition deaths per year from berry, berry and pellagra.

Oh, wow.

And that history has just kind of been erased. Like, the cereal industry kind of tried to erase that. Because what they said, instead of saying, hey, don't. Instead of saying, eat our cereal, rather, instead of saying, don't eat our cereal, it will kill you, they said, eat more of it now because it's fortified with vitamins and minerals. So you know how marketers do. They get a hold of something and they make it sound better than it is. And if you all. If you go back in as a kid when you grew up, and you remember the commercials, the cereal commercials, what did they say? They didn't say, eat cereal as your balanced breakfast. They said it's part of a balanced breakfast. It's because they couldn't say it's a balanced breakfast because it would malnourish you. So it was a play on words that they used. It was a very successful campaign, along with Tawny the Tiger and Lucky Charms and, you know, all the other cartoon caricatures that were aimed at targeting to your kids. And that's why people so vehemently hang on to grain. That's one of the big reasons why they so vehemently hang on to grain, because we've been indoctrinated in our social culture to believe that it's always been there, when, in fact, cereal wasn't really there before 1895. So if you look at quantitatively the calories in the US alone, 50% of the calories in the US diet is wheat. We don't even account for corn and rice in that 50%. So when you look at the total caloric value of what people are eating today versus what they ate, you know, 60 or 70 or 80 years ago or even a hundred years ago, it wasn't anywhere near near it. And so I think part of why we see so much more gluten sensitivity and gluten reactions and grain reactions is because of quantity, not and also quality, but also quantity.

Was it, was it. Were they eating sugar for their carbs before that?

Most.

Is sugar better for you than, than wheat?

No, probably not. I mean, I. I mean, I think it is. You think sugar? Pure, raw, processed sugar cane.

If you're gonna give me like a thousand calories of, of white flour from American wheat or a thousand calories of raw cane sugar, dude. Or even processed cane sugar, I'll take the sugar. My body can burn that perfectly clean. It doesn't have any immune stimulating molecules. It might cause some yeast to grow. If I have yeast going on, my, my gut bacteria isn't healthy. I'm just gonna get high blood sugar for a little while, but my metabolism works and I'll clear it out within two hours. Like, there's, there's no residue left over. It doesn't trash your brain the way wheat does. We humanize sugar. I don't think sugar's particularly good for you, but sugar is a thousand times better for you than most grains.

I would say it varies person to person. I'd say one of the biggest side effects of sugar that I would get concerned by is the candida overgrowth, because you have candida in your gut, but when you dump sugar in like that, in a bolus, you're going to have a feeding frenzy of Candida. And if we're going to tie that into gluten, Candida produces a protein on its surface called a hyphal wall protein. HWP1. A hyphal wall protein molecularly looks like gluten. So if you feed a candida overgrowth, you're actually making proteins that mimic gluten. And your immune system is now engaging with those immunological proteins. So we could argue that eating sugar actually is bad as gluten because it creates that, that frenzy from Candida.

Okay. There aren't any drugs you can take that help you after you've been exposed to gluten and have that systemic inflammation. Because, like, aspirin isn't going to do much for you.

Right.

If I'm gonna eat a thousand calories of sugar, why don't I just take a little nystatin and just be done with things? My statin fills you. I'm serious. Like, like we're talking about, do you want to be punched or kicked in the face? Like, I'll take the punch, not the kick. And I think gluten's the kick and sugar's the punch.

You could argue that. I, I would argue just don't eat the sugar or the gluten.

Well, yeah, you should duck if you can, and we both agree on that. But it, it's, you know, it, it's a tough one because. And there's also times when your body wants carbs, right? And you actually. Carbs can be anti stress.

Right?

And, and there's, there's good evidence for that. Like, I, I have a lot of people who've learned how to sleep with me. By the way, the website for that is sleepwithdave.com which is the best URL of my entire career. That's how I teach people, like the sleep challenge. Like here, it's totally free, guys, but you go there and I teach you stuff about sleep. And some people who have a blood sugar drop, you give them a tablespoon of raw honey before bed, which goes to liver glycogen, and then they sleep through. They don't wake up three or four with racing thoughts because of adrenaline and cortisol. So, like, if I need carbs, I'm not getting grains, I'm not getting potatoes because of lectins and oxalates. Well, geez, what's left, man? Like, are we just going to be, you know, huffing sugar or huffing honey or pineapple juice? Like, what do you do?

My, my opinion of that is person can't get through the night without waking up with anxiety because their blood sugar's dropping. Then they have another underlying biochemical problem that needs to be assessed and addressed so that they can sleep through the night like a normal human being. And, you know, taking honey might give them an appeasement of those symptoms. But I would call that green medicine, because what they're doing is they're taking something to have a biological or biochemical effect that they shouldn't have to take because they should be able to make it through night. Their blood sugar should be stable enough that they have enough liver storage that their liver could kick on and pump out some glucose for them while they're sleeping to be able to not get the adrenaline and the noradrenaline and the cortisol increased to wake them up. So, so why is that happening? Why is it that they can't metabolically activate that so that maybe they have some other problems going on?

Like paramenopause is a good example of a problem where, you know it's going to resolve. And other times people just need. Their metabolism is profoundly broken, like mine was when I was £300. And it's going to get better, but it's going to get better if I sleep all night. So I don't mind doing.

Work. Right, yeah, agreed. It's a trade off temporarily, as long as the person's willing to engage in the truth of the pursuit of improving themselves to the best that they can instead of calling it even and saying, you know what, this honey thing works pretty good. Let's just do that from now on, you know. But they're ignoring everything else they shouldn't be ignoring. So, you know, again, I, I, I, I don't want to sound too stoic because I don't, I get your point. But at the same time, a lot of people, I know human nature, just like in the clinic, I know human nature when you give them something that works and it makes them lazy. Right. You know, today's, today's, what is it? Today's luxuries or tomorrow's necessities? Right. So when you, when you create something that makes their life easier, then they, they, they are willing to pay a convenience tax at the cost of their longevity. And so as long as you're honest about that with them or that person's being honest with themselves about, about that trade off, then I think everybody gets to make their own decision. At the end of the day, it's.

It'S definitely a temporary hack. But given that a bad night's sleep reduces your ability to handle blood sugar swings by about 40%. You can be pre diabetic on four hours of sleep. Like, you know, we gotta get you sleeping so you can heal everything and you're gonna quit eating gluten first and probably milk protein. And I, I say this kind of with sadness because I think there's a lot of benefits to milk protein if you're not sensitive. And it's not the garbage industrial milk product that reduces fertility in humans. You know, skim milk and, and powdered milk and all that crap. If you're getting real grass fed milk, it's probably good for you unless you're allergic. And so many of us are allergic. So I see people out there going, oh, just have Greek yogurt and cheese. They're great. Like, I don't really see that in at least 50% of people. So if you're the grilled cheese and pizza kind of person and you just can't stop eating them, I guarantee you it's one or the other or both. And I'll bet on both. Good bet.

Very good bet. I mean, especially if the milk you're referring to is a one.

Yeah, of course. Which is grain and corn fed, right?

Yeah.

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E what about soybeans? You haven't, you haven't shit on soybeans yet.

I don't like them. I mean I think if you're going to eat them, you know you need to ferment them. You know, you need to break down a lot of the garbage that's in them and you definitely need to make sure they're organic. Um, you know 90, I think it's 95, 98% of the soy grown in the US is, is quite the state and GMO. So I'm not a fan of it for, for that reason. But I mean there are some, there are some medicinal benefits to soy like postmenopausally mentioned menopause earlier and because it acts as kind of pseudo not, it has, it has molecules in it that kind of mimic the action of estrogen or will bind to estrogen receptors. So it can be used kind of to appease hot flashes or other types of symptoms during, during menopause. But as a, as a general healthy whole food, if you're, if you're crunching down on edamame and you're eating processed soy based products, it's a bad idea. Is soy evil? I think farmers use soy a lot to improve nitrogen retention in the soil when they're rotating their crops. So I mean it does have utility and purpose beyond food as well, but just not a food I would encourage people to, to use as a staple and if you're going to eat it, ferment the hell out of it, you know, and reduce some of the detriment that's in it.

I've actually changed my tune on soy milk. And it turns out there's times I just love soy milk. Like, if I notice that my man boobs are not as big as I want them to be, then I just drink some more soy milk so I can have that full look that I'm going for to have enough cleavage. Right?

So, I mean, in today's gender fluid society, that might come in handy. Right?

Do you think we should start a brand of soy milk called Gender Fluid just to be real straightforward?

It would probably sell. I don't know, I just thought of.

That when you said, I was like, what's a gender fluid? Oh, wait, that's what you're talking about. But that'd be a great name for soy milk. So I've now pissed off someone who's gender fluid. Look, I don't care if you're gender fluid. You literally, I'm a biohacker. I support your ability to grow a third ball if you want to, and to put an ovary on your forehead. Like, I'm all in on whatever you like. But the idea that gender fluid as a name for soy milk, that's just freaking funny. And there we go. So not a fan of soy. Neither am I. What I haven't heard you talk about in wheat, that's not gluten that I wanted to go deeper with you on, if you're familiar, is oxalate. Are you familiar with the amounts of oxalate and wheat and particularly soy and corn and all of that, that, yeah.

All grains are high in oxalate, except for white rice. I would argue, even if that's a problem with oxalate, I've seen it elevate people's oxalates.

I, you have white rice. It's got almost none. Like, like, like 1 milligram kind of a thing.

Yes. The species of rice, it, it's gotta be. I, I, I agree. Because if you look at the oxalate research, it's very like, not, not. It's like gluten research. We know some things. Yeah, but we know, we know a lot of things. We also don't know a lot of things. And with oxalate. Oxalates. Let's tie this in the mold. I think that would be a fun conversation. So, candida, the species of yeast that pretty much grows in everyone's microbiome, we call microbiome which is fungal biome, produces oxalate. There's actually a metabolic pathway for, by which mold can produce oxalate inside of you. And so what we see a lot of times is people that have yeast overgrowth, they can tolerate oxalate in their diet if they didn't have a yeast overgrowth in their gut. And the yeast overgrowth combined with the rapid and excessive quantities of grain coming in, create an oxalate burden. And so basically they've got little tiny glass shards circulating through their system that just lodge into every tissue. I just recently saw a paper, it was a very interesting paper on Parkinson's disease where they actually found oxalate crystals in the substantia nigra of the brain, which is actually crystallizing the area of the brain that is responsible for the production of dopamine. So I think oxalate's very important for people to realize because, especially if you're going on a gluten free diet, because one of the other foods that are extremely high in oxalate is almond. And so if you're going to almond flour, almond milk, almond butter as the kind of, as an alternative, we've seen people actually get oxalate flares as a result of going gluten free, thinking the gluten free diet was harming them. When in effect, it was actually the, that they were just making food choices that were driving up their oxalate levels.

Yeah, I, I really regret my, my time as a raw vegan. I was doing spinach, kale, beets, almonds all the time, and red raspberries, which are almost as high as spinach. And I, I did have all the symptoms of this. The tartar on my teeth, the crusty crap around my eyes, the, the gout, like the pain in the joints. I didn't get kidney stones, thank God. But I mean, now that I realize that and it takes years to get rid of that buildup, I'm, I'm so much better off since I don't eat high oxalate foods. But it turns out soy is particularly high and so are most of the grains. And chocolate's also high. So I've actually backed way off on that. But what I do know for a fact is that I can feel oxalate and most people who are listening can as well order a spinach salad. You'll have to throw it away after you see what I'm talking about. Cause you don't want to eat that. But take a couple bites of it and then rub your tongue against the bottom of your back teeth and you're going to feel how it's kind of rough. You know that spinach salad feeling I'm talking about, that's oxalate crystals forming on the back of your teeth. And it's complexing with, there's two glands at the bottom of your mouth where minerals are secreted in saliva. And it'll complex with that and make those little, little complexes so you can feel it. And I'll tell you, some batches of chocolate, some brands of chocolate have a lot of it. It's not a tannin feeling, it's an oxalate feeling. Tannins dry your whole mouth out. Like if you eat a persimmon, that's a tannin feeling where everywhere feels that this is just on your teeth. And so you do that. You rub your tongue, go, oh. That's what it's like. And you realize sometimes you eat a food, it doesn't have lots of it. So some chocolate's lower than others. I know in kale, there's one research thing that says it's low and there's many others that say it's high.

Right.

It probably depends on, we know certainly the species of kale and also how it's grown, how stressed it was. The more stressed the plant, the higher the oxalate. You look at wild blueberries, they're relatively moderate. Organic blueberries that are not wild didn't have any bugs eating them. They're very, very low. So you end up going through and realizing, oh, we don't really know it's on a per batch basis. Uh, so I, I, I haven't seen an oxalate reaction from white rice. I'm, I'm really surprised. But I also wonder if the white rice fed candida that fed oxalate, that I'd bet that was the, the issue.

Yep, possible.

Interesting.

I, I think that's why carnivores become so popular, you know?

No, I'm 100 certain. It did also make you sick after a few months for most people. It did for me. I, we didn't call it carnivore. Back when I was testing the bulletproof diet, I, I went on an all meat, I did have butter and coffee, but just meat and butter and coffee. For three months.

You had butter and coffee for real?

Who would have thought? Right?

Who would have thought?

Yeah. So if some carnivores will say it wasn't carnivore because, you know, you had salt or whatever. But sorry, guys, it's close enough. And man, the first Few months I was like, I feel so good because oxalate drops. But then you do get these flare ups when your, your body starts secreting oxalate. But man, after three months, sleep is no good. Like it, it was, it was not good. My stress hormones went up. So that was why the bulletproof diet was clean. Low inflammation plants. I don't care if it's fruit or, or, or some plants like arugula. I'm cycling in and out of ketosis and I've found that rice and if you tolerate it, honey are like the, the safest sources of carbs. But the mold people tell you that you shouldn't have any starch because there's an amylase problem that happens when you're exposed to toxic mold. In which point rice would be taken out as well. Do you have any fears of starch versus sugar and in terms of plants you eat?

I don't. As long as I'm not in mold and as long as I'm doing my part to stay healthy and eat well and eat balanced, I'm a fan of a really, I know it sounds cliche, but I'm really a fan clinically and personally of what I just label as the rule of thirds. I'm, I'm aiming for my macros to be a third carb, a third fat, a third protein. And I find for me that works extremely well. And for the vast majority of the.

When you say one third protein, that includes gluten and Zane. Right? Because those are protein.

No, no, no, no.

It's actually not the rule of thirds. It's high quality protein and then canola oil for the fats. Oh no. And it's high quality fat. And then what plants do you like?

Yeah, I like all, I like all kinds. But I mean mostly I eat. If I'm going to eat something, I like root vegetables. Okay. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not afraid of potatoes the way a lot of people are. I think, I think it's, I think it's a quantity issue. I think for a lot of people it's a quantity issue. You don't, you don't go gorge on a baked potato with margarine all over the top of it. You, you know, you have some food and you, and you, you, you rein it into what your needs are. Right. And your needs may be different than mine. Your needs, if you're, you know, if you're going and working out, doing two a day football practices in 110 degree weather, your diet needs are going to be a little bit different than somebody who's just trying to get through a normal day where that's not part of their physical, you know, their physical acumen. So I think, I think part of it is, you know, you have to, you have to biohack yourself to a certain extent. But I think when you're biohacking yourself and you haven't figured it out, I think one of the most important and smartest things a person could do if they're just trying to figure it out is low hanging fruit. Right? Get rid of grain. Get rid of all grain, not just wheat. Get rid of dairy, those two. Get rid of processed sugar, get rid of processed foods and get rid of GMO and get rid of seed oils. Let's not call those foods and just start with real meat that's grass fed, you know, free range organic. Start with real fresh organic whole produce and, and fruit and limited quantities. You know, don't eat the whole watermelon kind of thing. And, and nuts to your ability to tolerate them. But, but nuts. Be cautious with, because there's some nuance with, with nuts. If you're trying to climb out of the chronically inflamed hole like, like many people are trying to do there. There's oxy in a lot of nuts and they're oxidated.

Omega 6, right?

Yeah, Omega 6.

We're very aligned. I mean that, that's, that's like on the bulletproof diet roadmap. It's like the, the free download of the bulletproof diet book. Daveasprey.com roadmap map Guys, if you don't have it, we would probably be 95% aligned. I'm probably more positive on white rice than you are, but you make a really clear point. Like if it's 5% inflammatory gluten, like proteins, then there's a case to limit that if you're exceptionally sensitive. And same thing with dairy. Like you could probably handle butter, grass fed butter, but it does have dairy protein in it. And some people have to go to ghee, some people have to eliminate rice. But I'm just like, how do we, how do we get you so you're, you're healthy enough to recover, but you're still living life in a way that's, that's sustainable for you. Like, like locking yourself in a cave and doing everything perfectly. It might be faster, but you probably can't afford to do that for very long. So I just remember there were times when I was spending 20% of my income on supplements and doctors in my 20s, because I was like, man, I'm not gonna be able to keep working if I don't fix this. And it was like my most important thing even affected one of my relationships back then. She's like, why do you keep spending so much money on your health? I'm like, because I don't have my health. And I know so many people. I think you do, too. In your patient population, People have gone bankrupt just trying to get over mold, trying to get over gluten sensitivity. Any advice for people who are just, you know, at the end of the rope? Like, I don't have any more money to, to buy supplements and, you know, I'm having a hard time here.

What, what would you do?

Would you first?

I, I changed my diet first. It's the lowest hanging, easiest, most controllable factor that you have the, you know, in terms of your choices. Don't worry so much about exercise when you're in the hole, but try to move. Try to have some motion and some movement to tolerance. Go outside for a walk regularly, you know, put your feet to the earth. Get some sunshine every day, you know. You know, don't be scared of skin cancer. Get out there, you know, based on skin tolerance. Again, use good judgment and common sense. But the sun's not going to give you cancer faster than your health is being destroyed. If you're, if you're trying to dig out of that hole in the sun, there's so much evidence it's the freest medicine and it's one of the most powerful. So get it and get it often. And if you live in a more northern climate, consider, you know, consider red lights. Consider even ultraviolet lights in the winter months. You know, again, those things cost money. Sunlight is free. So again, get that sunlight where you can go to bed on time. You know, if you're struggling with sleep, at least try to set patterns and habits where you're consistently getting in bed at the same time, even if you can't fall asleep right away. You know, set your body up for success so that it can rebalance its circadian rhythm. I mean, this, again, is something you can choose to do on a frequent and daily basis and filter, filter your air and filter your water. You know, if you do those, I call them my six non negotiables. You know, eat well, sleep well, exercise to tolerance, you know, breathe clean air, drink clean water and get sunshine, because those things don't cost you more. Those things are easy and accessible to everyone. And if you're Doing those things consistently and you're still struggling. Now's the time to use technology to enhance your knowledge base about what you need to do as a unique individual. Right? That's where you work with somebody. I encourage anyone to work with a functional doctor who's got a great reputation. There's. Look, as you were mentioning earlier, there are a lot of charlatans out there. There really are. And there's a lot of western medical coming on board of Functional Medicine, not because they're passionate and they love to help people, but because they found a profitable business model that doesn't enslave them to the insurance model. And they're doing it for the wrong reasons. And I know a lot of them. I'm not going to name names, but just, just, you know, people that have good reputations usually have really good reviews. So look for that kind of thing. If you're trying to pick a good one and ask a friend, ask somebody who's had success working with somebody and just get a good name and work with somebody. Because I love it when people can heal themselves with just doing their own research and just biohacking their way to better health. But look, if it's taking you longer than two years, if it's taking you longer than two years, by your five years into this or 10 years into this, quit it, stop it. Because you're ruining, you're ruining your opportunity at wonderful years of life by not humbling yourself well enough to accept guidance into your life. And so, you know, find that person that you can trust and accelerate your timeline with technology. There's laboratory technology that can give you so much insight about how you can manipulate your diet. Even better than just generally saying, cut these things out, right? Because I've had. I mean, I wrote about it in my book no Gray, no Pain. You know, one of the first stories in that book is a little girl who was terminal. She had six months to live. She had juvenile rheumatoid arthritis. She was nine. Those doctors had pumped her full of methotrexate for seven years. She had a port embedded in her arm. It was permanently embedded because she was in and out of the hospital so frequently. So for seven years, this little girl struggled. She was gluten sensitive and allergic to blueberries. And every morning her mom would give her a blueberry smoothie. And, you know, blueberries are perfectly fine and perfectly healthy. But in her case, you know, it was holding her back. And it was technology that allowed us to discover that. And how else would you discover it? Because Every website that you go and look at calls Blueberries a superfood. So, I mean, it's a very confusing world out there. And just recognize that everyone has a unique blueprint. And if you're not finding it with your own biohacking, you know, tap into some great doctors and some great minds and some great technology that can help you kind of get over that plateau. I mean, that's. That literally is the best advice I can give. And if you find your health biohacking, you're right and your doctor's wrong. If your doctor's telling you you need to do it differently but you feel fantastic, he's wrong. And I would own that, too. If a patient came in and said, you know, Dr. Osborne, I disagree with you. This is. This is what I've done and it's worked fantastically well for me and I'm abundantly energized and I feel fantastic. How can I argue with an outcome or a result? Because everyone's an n equals 1. And nobody's going to love you more than you love yourself, and nobody can care about you more than you can care about yourself. So be a biohacker. Be in tune with your body. But also, again, if you hit a limitation, humble yourself enough to seek out an expert and find that person who can co author your next chapter of great health.

You actually have a gluten masterclass. That's pretty cool. There's like 10 modules, 14 hours just to teach people really the nuances. So if you're listening to this and you're saying, man, this. This gluten thing seems like it might be at the root for me. We've got a world class expert here. So where do people go to get the gluten master class?

That's glutenology.net forward/registration. It's free, no charge. We just want. I mean, you asked me earlier, why did I start Gluten Free Society? It's because all of the celiac research facilities in the world weren't talking about the other grains and they weren't talking about how to be healthy. They were just saying, you have a disease, change your diet. But they weren't reflective of how persons should change your diet and what they should be eating to be healthy. They were just saying, eat as much corn and rice, junk food as you want. You just have to avoid wheat, barley, and rye. And I felt like that message was killing people. And when I met Ginger, the little girl I was talking about earlier, she actually is who changed my trajectory in my course for my life, because she's actually the reason why Gluten Free Society was started. And that's where that glutenology masterclass comes from. I made it free so that people could access it because I don't have 14 hours to give to each individual in the world who needs to hear it. But if somebody can find that information and find value in it, then, and it saves their life or changes their life for a better way. That's what we were about.

I. I like it. This is one of those things that I wish I'd have known when I was about 19 because there was so much going on with my health. Gluten was a part of it. Mold was a part of it, dairy was a part of it. But gluten was very central for me. And it still is. I mean, it still wrecks me. And maybe it's not gluten, maybe it's some other aspect of wheat, but it sure feels like it's gluten to me. Whatever it is, I know consistently if I have it, I'm not doing so well. So if I'd have just known, it would have really reduced the amount of money that I spent on all kinds of health stuff, trying to get better and just made my brain work better, I probably would have had much better grades. One of the things that people don't understand is that the amount of time ADHD or just brain fog is tied to gluten and dairy and these other grains. It's meaningful. So if you're in, in high school or college and you're, you know, you're, you're trying to. Trying to focus and it just isn't working. You might look at your diet because this was a, a major, A major thing that happened with me as well. And it's funny, I. I was on the Jay Shetty Show, I believe, recently, and I talked about an Uber driver who had dropped me off at actually to get a blood test. And he'd been in the school lunch system, like, designing menus, like head of the cafeteria for 30 something years. He was just driving Uber in the morning before he went into the school, and he said, you know, this year and last year, I've never seen so much wheat. It's just wheat, wheat, wheat. They got wheat and everything. You know, they, they have trends over time. Used to be corn, now it's wheat. And he was kind of shaking his head, but he had, you know, multiple decades of looking at this. And I talked about on the Jay Shetty show and funny enough, a few People online like, you're making up that story. I'm like, no, I've got the receipts from that, that ride. It was just so fascinating to hear someone who's watched how we've fed our kids for generations. So we know wheat's going up in our diet, we know it's bad for us. And I think you're one of the guys with the biggest voice in that specific thing saying, look, look at the science. Here's what it's doing to us. And as a biohacker listening to the show, by controlling this variable in your environment, your food environment, you can magically give yourself energy back, give yourself, your brain back. Maybe your knees don't hurt anymore either, and stuff like that. But whatever it is, you don't have to be young to do it. It just counts more when you're young because you have to undo the damage that eating this for 20 years is going to do. So if you're a teenager and you realize, you know what, screw the pizza and probably screw the corn and soy and oat based gluten free pizza as well, and order the steak or the chicken or the burger with a, with a lettuce bun, which is what I usually do, you probably feel a lot better, probably live longer, you'll probably make more money and frankly, you'll probably date more attractive people because you'll be a more attractive person because your skin will look better and you'll probably smell better too. Your pheromones will work. All of this is tied to like what's on your fricking plate. It's not that hard, but no one told me. So now we are here to tell you this. Is anything I said there wrong?

No, not at all. I think you'd be a great ad spokesman for why to change your diet away from grain.

Yeah, Axe Body Spray tried to hire me one time to write copy. No, they didn't. But could you imagine? I would never.

But.

The reality is different people, different stages of life. Gluten is going to affect you. It's easier earlier on to deal with it. And if you're one of the half of people who now has the stuff that I had when I was in my teens and twenties, you don't have to do it anymore. You can be done with it by the time if you're 20 right now going, this sucks, I can't control my brain. I'm all over the place. By the time you're 21, you can be done. Because when you're young, you change so fast and if you're 35 and you're just figuring this out, which is when a lot of people do, might take you two years. If you wait till you're 50, it might take you three years. You can still do it. It just takes more investment because you took more time to screw yourself up.

Yeah, it takes, scientifically, it takes 30 to 90 days to get 20 parts per million exposure of gluten out of your immune system's memory. So, you know, when we look at half lives for gluten antibodies, it's, you know, 30 to 60 days. So if you get, if you go get, you know, if you cheat have that, that's, that's, that's a cheat meal you were talking about. Right? Or I think you said Tim Ferriss was talking about the cheat meal. If now this is true, if you're gluten sensitive, if you're not gluten sensitive and, and it's something else in the grain that's bothering you and it's not the gluten, this doesn't apply. But if we're talking specifically about gluten in the immune system, it takes, you know, it takes about three months to get that stuff completely out of your system. So 20 parts per million rule, which has been well established for years, which is 20 parts per million of gluten exposure, can cause inflammation for up to three months. So if you're gluten sensitive, cheat.

Yeah, cheating doesn't work. And also eating something because it says gluten free is one of the dumbest things you can ever do. It's almost as dumb as eating something because it's plant based. Oh, it's an impossible burger. You don't care what's in there. You just care what's not in there. Most of the gluten free stuff that I see out there that's highly processed is at least as bad for you as gluten containing things. There's a whole array of other grains in them that trigger different things. There's usually a bunch of sugar and quite often a bunch of oxalates. So I don't touch that stuff. But what'll I do if I want a cheat meal? I'm fine on white rice. I can make really good desserts with white rice if I want to.

And.