Reverse Aging with Exosomes: Think BETTER, Heal FASTER | Dr. Edward Park

Exosomes have no inflammatory response, but the healing response happens.

21 year old tore his meniscus last year and after two shots, he's back to 100%.

Anytime they say that something is junk, they're always wrong.

You could take any cell and introduce seven genes and cells will become stem like. And it really upgraded my brain actually my sleep quality is different. I went from two to nine languages on Duolingo.

I want to get some exosomes in my. What's it going to run? You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey. This episode is recorded live here in the studios in Austin, Texas. And our guest today is going to teach you everything you wanted to know about exosomes. And we'll talk about some of the reasons. There are issues with stem cells in the US Right now. And exosomes are tiny, called cellular messengers. In my books I call them stem cell poop. So healthy stem cells make exosomes and exosomes cause the benefits. So you can short circuit the need for stem cells and save some money. I'm a big fan of stem cells done properly. There's lots of episodes on that, but exosomes are a unique thing. So we're going to go deep that with Dr. Edward Park. Welcome to the show.

Thanks so much for having me excited.

Edward is a Harvard trained physician and a pioneer in using exosomes from stem cells. He's also got about 10 years in regenerative medicine and he wrote a book on exosomes called Exosomes Song of Healing. Were you eating mushrooms when you named your book? I'm just wondering.

No, I don't need mushrooms now. I'm completely connected to source all the time.

All right, talk to me about exosomes. What are they?

Well, as you stated, stem cells make exosomes. A lot of cells make exosomes, not just in us, but in plants as well. So it's how they communicate, just like you said. So interesting you mentioned poop. I just found out that electron microscope's been around since the late 30s. So they've been seeing these bags of, you know, one or two dozen exosomes being excreted and they assume that they were poop. But it turns out that in the last 16 years they've been saying, well, what if it wasn't poop? What if it were messages? What if like Internet packets or sentences or songs? And so the analogy I use is songs of healing because imagine we ourselves, but we don't have the ability to understand the messages. So that would be like an alien looking at us and saying, well, what does Dave make? He breathes CO2. He makes pee and poo. That's all he's good for. And they never heard your message or your podcast or your writing.

Interesting.

Yeah. So it's really. They just chose to ignore it for 30 years and then they started studying it. Now we know that. Oh, we got to catch up. You know, there's all this stuff that you have to do to isolate the exosomes, which are invisible. Actually, they're too small to see. And if you melt the capsules, like the supermarket toy bubbles, and you look at it, you go, oh, my God, there's rna, there's microrna, there's proteins, and that's what causes cancer, cirrhosis, kidney disease, yada, yada. So we're playing catch up. We knew they were there, but for 30 years, they thought they were poop.

It's kind of funny, in western medicine, anytime they say that something is junk or poop or whatever, they're always wrong.

Yeah, DNA. Exactly.

Junk DNA. Or junk sugar on the surface of cells.

Yeah.

That's called cellular immunity. It's not junk at all.

Glycocalyx. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Or. Or junk melanin. Like, oh, we don't need that in the brain. No. The body doesn't make stuff that's of no use because we are energy conserving mechanisms first.

Yeah.

So everything has a reason or it wouldn't be there.

Exactly.

And the fact that we don't know it is. That's just hubris.

Well, I like what your other guest biohacker, newcomer Brian Johnson, said. He's like, so much of our human thought is just parsing out what we think we already know and holding on to that. But there's so many assumptions that could be challenged for sure.

And I would say the assumptions around exosomes, oh, these are probably useless things to sell, say, well, that's dumb. So the, the real curious question is, well, what do they do? And what you've learned and others in the field are learning is they, they're a message to do something, but they're also actually directly healing compounds. It's like, do something with this material. That's what they're saying.

Let me dumb it down. So they're not FDA approved, but anytime, like, you're t teaming with exosomes right now, I don't know if the numbers, trillions, quadrillions, or quintillions, but plants, animals were teeming with exosomes. Sometimes they're doing good stuff, sometimes they're doing bad stuff. But let's say you get a paper cut or you twist your ankle, or you get hit by a truck, your stem cells will start pouring out exosomes against the FDA approval process. But this is how we normally heal. So the premise of what we're doing is rather simple. It's not even hacking, it's just mimicry. Okay, so we're just taking from a newborn baby placenta and then the company will isolate the stem cells and, you know, completely isolated from any environmental toxins. They're just secreting all these exosomes that they filter them out. And the premise, which I think is founded, is that if a little is good, a lot is better. If you're trying to heal an old, you know, injury, or even with the mice experiments, you know, they do things like give them heart attacks, you know, knee arthritis, strokes. So the biological premise is simple, just mimicry.

So they give them a condition, then they add in exosomes and then they heal in a way they otherwise couldn't heal.

Correct? Yeah.

Okay, that's pretty potent. So then let's say someone listening has a knee injury. So you're going to say, all right, let me do some P.T. maybe, maybe you go into upgrade labs and you do light therapy and you do pulsed emf, but it's still hurting. Right. You've taken your turmeric, you've taken your herbs. All right, I've got something that, that isn't working right. And some people would say, well, just do platelet rich plasma. What's your take on platelet rich plasma as a step one? It's the cheapest of all these inventions.

I'm so glad you asked that. Yeah. So prolotherapy has been around for 30 something years. So the premise is if you take the blood from your, from one of those large veins and you spin it down in the middle, there's platelet rich plasma, which has its own exosomes, but it's very inflammagenic. So you put in the knee and it causes inflammation. That's why they tell you you can't take Motrin or Advil because they want the inflammation, they want the immune response. But part and parcel of that is that stem cells will release so much of exosomes. So now we can just forget the stem cells, we can forget the inflammation, we can forget the PRP and just cut to the chase. And the effect seems to be predictable. Pretty good. I'd say about 70% of people get better the very first thing I did six years ago was inject my knee meniscus and it's been good for six years. My 21 year old tore his meniscus last year and after two shots he's back to 100%. So I mean, the premise is that there's niches, they call them, which is stem cell neighborhoods. So your knee, when it gets injured, it tries its best, but it's poorly vascularized. And then those chondrocytes, or the collagen producing cells that will make the hard cartilage, they copy, they copy, they copy, they copy and they get tired out. Either the telomeres shorten or the epigenetic silencing and they just quit. So it's not arthritis, it's arthrosis. So, and just like osteoporosis, arthrosis, tendinosis, there's no longer inflammation, it's just the cells are done copying. So sometimes when we put exosomes in, they have de differentiation and they start acting more primitive. And so they can copy, they can express the extracellular matrix just like a newborn fetus would be growing.

Okay, so let's do a cost effective knee regeneration protocol.

Yeah.

Step one, PT movement therapy. Step two, red light pulse, dmf. And those are upgrade labs, things where they're available and you can get devices at home. And you're going to be taking anti inflammatory herbs, probably glucosamine sulfate or something like that. You like that for nice?

I like infrared. I'm hearing good things. You know, we're all just flying by the seat of our pants. What's anecdotal, right? Yeah. So my friend's mom, she had a torn meniscus, she put the infrared. She's good. I mean, probably in the future they'll have Star Trek beds and they'll put some frequency to match something and the songs will sing themselves. But yeah, I do like that I'm glucosamine. Not going to hurt. Panth is part and parcel. It's kind of like prolotherapy. It's causing temporary inflammation. So one thing I learned from a doctor who was injecting her shoulder with exosomes, a lot like 20, $30,000 worth. She kept on hitting it with modalities, ultrasound, light energy. So I kept on thinking, well, why isn't she getting better? It's because she's going to day zero for the inflammation. So that's why sometimes even 10 years out, if you've had a bad knee or tendinosis of the rotator cuff, it can pick up where it left off. So that's what we really want. We don't want to start day zero inflammation. So I don't encourage adjuvant sort of energy therapy once the process, not once.

You'Ve injected stem cells or once you've injected.

Let's say you have knee surgery. Standard meniscal repair after 10 days or so. I recommend exosomes because whatever you're trying to do with that inflammation will just be enhanced. But not in the first 10 days because of infection risks.

Okay, okay. That makes a lot of sense. And so someone's on a limited budget, they've done that stuff doesn't work. You could spend, you know, 1500 bucks or something on PRP, but you might as well just get exosomes injected in the knee directly for sure. And that's going to be a lot cheaper than stem cells. And then, you know, they're on par.

It just depends on who you go to, what brand they use. But yeah, I always say if PRP worked for you, that's great. It works for a lot of people. The next pumps will probably work, but the same, there's a crossover with stem cells too. Right? Stem cells, Even though your body, the studies show, will get rid of them in a few days, they're still around for a few days and they're making a lot of exosomes. Okay. Yeah.

I had Rob Whitfield on the show, who's a renowned surgeon here in Austin, talking about breast implant illness and talking about something called a no cut facelift. Just really innovative, cutting edge stuff. And, and he trained for years with a guy who created the first protocols for platelet rich plasma or prp. And he said basically it doesn't work very well at all and he doesn't use it compared to things like exosomes. So it seems like our protocol for knees would say if the normal stuff doesn't work, then go straight to an exosome injection and you're likely to get the best results there.

Again, I think that's accurate. I think that, you know, if people come to me, say I did prp, it worked once, but then it didn't work. If platelet rich plasma worked for you, there's no reason why exosomes wouldn't. The people that exosomes don't work are the ones, and this is not a well known thing who are immune suppressed like lime mold, steroids at high doses biologics, because you need a intact immune system to be part of the process. Yep.

It's funny, people with Toxic mold, which is usually the root cause of Lyme. And I have a whole episode about that guy from UCI looking at genetics like that's, that's a well back statement at this point. I've had active Lyme disease and I've had a lot of mold poisoning in my life. And you just don't heal and nothing heals when you've had mold. And that's because of this. So you want to deal with your immune stuff, maybe do some toxin binding and then go straight to exosomes and skip PRP if this is someone new. Because PRP is expensive and it's less likely to work compared to exosomes and they're a similar price.

My opinion, but I'm biased. You know, you're a practitioner, like what works. Yeah, but I think that PRP and exosomes, there's a huge overlap. Okay. Now we don't need that inflammation. So if you remember, Kim Kardashian had the vampire facial.

Yep.

Her face was very red. But in contrast, exosomes are so anti inflammatory that most people, even with fair skin, you can't tell they had anything done the next day.

I've had a vampire facial. Actually went out to dinner with it still on my face because I'm that kind of guy.

No, it's like, yeah, it's like Kim Cattrall at the Golden Globes. Like you gotta time it right. You need at least like 10 days to get over it.

Yeah, that was years and years old.

Reference. Yes.

And then I've also had exosomes in my face and stem cells and exosomes have no inflammatory response. But the healing response happens.

Right. So it gets you right through that inflammation. That's what they're designed to do. And so it, we can go technical if people want to learn more. It's in the book. Just remember 1 to 2, M1, macrophage, M2.

Okay.

Th1 phenotype to Th2. So it takes you from that infectious hot inflammation, sterilizing to regenerating, recovering anti inflammation.

And you're saying exosomes do that now?

That's just fundamental. Yeah. Nobody's going to argue that, you know.

Beautiful. Let's talk about hair.

Yeah.

What do we know about hair and exosomes?

You know, it's a lot of people are doing it. If I'm being honest. I don't do a lot of it because it requires, you know, multiple treatments, a commitment. I did get really lucky once with a guy. I used regular MSC exosomes and amniotic fluid Exosomes, which they don't make anymore. But his head grew like a Chia Pet. It was crazy. But the greatest thing is he thought it was the Costco propitia that he'd been on for years. But you know, that's the thing about attribution bias. But a lot of people do use it. I mean, you have everything from red light caps, right. To follicle extraction and transplantation. There's a lot of ways. But you know, alopecia is a mixed bag. Sometimes it's autoimmune, a lot of times it's just androgenic. In other words, the cells have copied too much, they're no longer stem, like. But yeah, out the people out there doing it, I mean, and the people paying for it, they're getting results. I mean, I just treated my bitcoin gazillionaire patient and he's like, oh, it's barber's, like, hey, you know, you got some new hair growing back there. So it's, you know, definitely an observable thing phenomenon.

So Alan Bauman came on the show a while ago and right before the pandemic, he moved 10,000 hairs from the sides of my head to the front. I never had any hair loss, even though all the guys in my family are bald by 25. And then I got a testosterone pellet.

Yeah.

And I just like lost an inch of hair because testosterone should cycle up and down and the pellet doesn't. So he did a great job. He also used exosomes in it. So I, I've had at this point, I'm guessing 60 vials of exosomes.

That's a lot. I mean, you know, sometimes more is more, but you know, over time it's timing. You know, people can. It works sometimes, not all the time. I mean, I had inadvertent darkening repigmentation in a 92 year old. We were treating her for symptoms related to long Covid arthritis and she's sprouting all these black hairs. So people love hair regrowth, they love hair repigmentation because they think of it as a visceral sign of getting younger. But yeah, hair can be tricky, you know, so nothing. There's no stem cell. Well, let's, let's back up and talk about Yamanaka factors or whatever. So that's. Well, they won a Nobel Prize about 15 years ago. A Japanese scientist found that you could take any cell, even differentiated skin cell, and introduce four genes. Now it's seven genes and cells would become stem, like pluripotent and so that's amazing. So that teaches us that we really don't know that much about how cells decide to be not stem like and stem like. And there's a conversation sort of like a beehive. There's one queen, but if the queen dies, maybe someone else becomes the queen. So this stuff is still not figured out, maybe never will.

I wrote about Yamanaka factors and editing stem cells in my big book on longevity called Superhuman. And there are a couple of companies working on that right now. And I'll probably one of the be one of the first people to get gene edited stem cells introduced, which is a pretty exciting thing. And as that happens, I'll share information about it. But in the meantime, you know, every time I see you or another friend with reliable exosomes, like, well, I should at least do some intravenously or stick it anywhere that hurts. So right after this. Yeah, you're going to treat me. We're going to do some stuff and we're talking about a sinus thing. Tell me about stem cells in your sinuses.

Well, I'm not sure that I would say it's sinus. It definitely goes up through the nasal mucosa. Okay, so like seven and a half weeks ago I did mine. There was a girl that was scared to do it. So I was like, oh, it's okay. But I was thinking like, you're kind of a hypocrite. Like, you haven't done this in six years. Like, what's the deal? So I thought, I'll just do it for her. And it really upgraded my brain. Actually. My sleep quality is different. Like I went from two to nine languages on Duolingo. But the thing that I was most worried about, Dave, was, you know, my dad died of brain cancer 20 years ago. And because it, it gave me permanent like, ability to, it unlocked the ability to do goosebumps at will. So I'm like, what am I going to change in my brain? I thought, okay, if I get a, in a intel like Pentium whatever upgrade, I'm just going to spend more time in the past, in the future and have depression and anxiety. Right. But no, I found out to my delight it doesn't work like that. No, I was, I'm much more present because the, the resilience is there. Like stuff that would just trigger me. It's there, it's gone in six seconds. So this has been like the most productive seven weeks of my life. So it's just more reserve. And that's what we talked. We were Talking about Tourette's. But I went to a great lecture. A woman whose son developed tic disorder. And she said that it's only when the mind is overworked, like there's too many programs open in the system tray, that the ticks discharge.

I love it that you're putting it that way. I had Asperger's syndrome when I was younger and I say had, it is reversible. It's just an enormous amount of work and what brings on symptoms. I also had OCD and odd and I would like the facial scrunches and occasionally stutter and you wouldn't recognize me in eighth grade.

Yeah.

So what happens is you get too much environmental input and the brain can't make enough energy, but you can restore energy production. And I've done some really cutting edge stuff to my brain with stem cells and without stem cells as well. All the different stuff. 40 years is in lots of neurofeedback. And if I could just say one thing about resilience. Have better mitochondria in your brain and you'll be more resilient to stress. And strangely, you won't ruminate it. It's when the body feels anxiety because something isn't working right, it looks for a reason. And the reason is in the future, in the past, it's your partner. When you have enough energy, you can manage anything that comes your way and your resilience goes through the roof. And it's been such a gift for me. I've dealt with a lot of crap and I don't think I'd have been able to do it if my brain hadn't been substantially upgraded, including exosomes.

That's why, you know, I admire what you're doing. Like, nobody really knows. Like, in the kingdom of the blind, the one eyed man is king. But you're trying stuff. If it works on you, then you advocate and you take feedback and you can pivot. Yeah, that's what it's all about. Like, I was scared to do my own. This is the most commonly requested procedure. Over 500 of my 2500 procedures have been nasal injection. Wow. But I was like scared to do it because I'm like, am I going to like think too much? But again, it's like you said, you have the resilience. If you have more reserve, then you can do, you know, eight core, multiple threads. You know, it's like you don't worry about.

If you think about it, if you have a really powerful computer, your utilization goes down.

Yeah, that's it. But that's what people understand. You know, when you're two and when you're 102, you can't control your bladder. Why? Because your CPU is overloaded with anxiety and angst and things. This hurts and that hurts.

And it's underpowered when you're old and when you're young, the control systems aren't wired in right and we can wire in our control systems better. And I'm firmly convinced that anyone who's 80, with the right therapeutics, you can restore the brain to being a very, very high functioning, like you're younger. With the caveat that if you have actual damage to neurons, that's harder to reverse, if it's Parkinson's or Alzheimer's, but even those are reversible.

I think there's hope. You know, when we're, as a medical doctor, we're trained, you know, on the old doctrine that you don't regrow brain cells, but actually you grow like 5 to 10,000 a night when you dream. And so a video I did a couple weeks ago, I'm doing a provider training videos about the nasal injection and it showed a slide. It's a great slide with the Incredible Hulk. But there are two micrornas. Just as a thing for your audience, micro RNA is like 21 base pair anti sense. So if you have a messenger RNA to express a protein, it gums it up and keeps it from being made. So there's one that's M133B and that can cause neurons to sprout like little avocado seeds in a, in a glass. And then one is Microrna. What is it? 34A, I think. And that will cause cells to remyelinate. So this is science. This is not just like, you know, stuff we're asking Vishnu to do for us. You know, this is real in vitro, in vivo science. So there's ways that the body can regenerate nerves. It just. Does it happen often? No, it's easy to do. No, but I always am very cautious. You know, I just treated a doctor friend who I trained in Austin, and she's a true believer. You're a true believer? Exosomes work. They don't always work every time in the same way. But she's treating people with a binder. Have you heard of TB006? No. It's basically like a antibody that binds up this Galactin 3.

Oh, I want that. I know about.

Yeah. She says four out of six, you know, it's helping, but, you know, there's Some problem. When you reach advanced Alzheimer's, it's like a burned down house. Right. You can remodel if you had a kitchen fire. But it's just I. Even though I'll say I've never treated a stroke recovery patient who hasn't had some improvement, you know, you have to get that early. And people who have advanced Alzheimer's, maybe you need to do the collectin3 thing. But it's very hard to repair something that's so complex. It's better to just buy a new car than try it, you know, refurbish the. The DeLorean, you know.

Fair. Fair point. And Dr. Dale Bredesen's a friend who's been on the show a couple of times.

Yeah.

And he's written, here's the causes, here's the protocols for repair. And I feel like anytime I'm doing regenerative work on myself, exosomes are a part of the plan and that they, they really work. And some of the more esoteric parts of longevity, they're systems that we don't think about a lot. In my work, there's seven pillars of aging. These are the systems you've got to maintain if you want to stay young. So you don't do just one you, but one of them is telomeres. And you've got some interesting information in your book and in your practice around exosomes and telomeres. What do we know?

Well, that's really where I started. We met like 15 years ago, right around the time you were launching Europe. You're leaving and launching. So, yeah, the stuff that we've been taking, or I've been taking cyclist Trojan all 17 years. It's kept me in my hair black and pretty much no reading glasses. So from age 40 now to 57, that's I've been taking every night. This year I did add one more thing. Like someone at Radfest asked, well, if you're taking like 100 things, how do you know which one is doing it? So that was the only thing I took for 16 years. So that's what I attribute to. I mean, knock on wood, I try and stay away from doctors and dentists. You know, they all just want to do stuff to you. So that kept me the same. And actually, you know, speaking of Vishnu, if you read my books, the three books I have, I talk about aging models. So if you look at the Hindu cosmology, it's. Vishnu is preserving. Ramen is like stem cells creating and Shiva's destruction. So that guy Ned in The Pacific Northwest had his home run senolytic. We know senolysis is good. It's all about the economy of your stem cells. How many stem cells do you have Left? If you're 114 year old Dutch lady, you might only have 2 out of 10,000 left. Right. So this is what we're talking about. So I think it's important to note that telomeres. Okay. For those that don't know telomeres the ends of chromosomes. This is not any kind of wackadoodle theory. Every time a cell copies they lose 50 to 150 base pairs. So a cell can only copy so much before it's non viable.

It's like a wick. And it shortens every time.

Right. I call it like a. Like a fuse on a firecracker. Right. So when they get too short, it's very explained beautifully in the book with pictures. The chromosomes tear apart, they mutate and this allows cell death in most cases. So that's the main thing. So I started taking telomerase activator in 2007. Been taking it this year. I add DHE DHEA on the recognition of my biohacker.

Mom, that's a good idea.

That's all I've been taking and it's been keeping me relatively young.

But you've also been injecting exosomes.

Only when I get hurt because they're very expensive. So if I get a twisted ankle, rotator cuff, but the meniscus I only have to do one and done so that.

How much do exosomes cost?

I mean it can vary. I mean sometimes we'll do them compassionate care because you know, for the doctors out there there's enough margin. So sometimes people charge you know, 1.53x. I personally ethically don't like to charge too much because we like repeat customers. I was bashful to ask my bitcoin gazillionaire for just standard street market prices. But I mean this guy was buying up Bitcoin at 5 cents. So he's good. But it could be a couple hundred bucks. It could be several thousand if you're getting charged five figures. I would go elsewhere. As long as we're talking same brand.

Apples to apples and there's a lot of brands out there.

Yeah.

And I. I don't generally trust stem cells, umbilical cells in the US because the regulatory environment prevents you from getting good quality. But stem cells there is a range of quality. How do you know whether of iOS stem cells is good or not?

You don't I mean, but here's the thing that I want to allude to earlier. Why aren't platelets good? Because when you get older, your cells are older, their products are not as high quality. Same with stem cells. So why, if you're a young person like we were talking about, my 25 year old, if he gets the money, he maybe wants to bank his stem cells as you did eight years ago, so he'll have a repository of original stem cells, equipment, manufacturing software, so there won't be this problem. The problem is that cells have these self identifying antigens. So if I take it from you, even my sister, it's going to be rejected in a few days. That's what the studies show. If I take it from a black sheep in Switzerland, probably even quicker, right? But you're. Even though you're not a genetic match to yourself, day to day, we're changing, we're becoming mutated. It's pretty close. So you're unlikely to trigger autoimmunity or graft versus host. Host versus graft. Okay. So your best bet is, you know, if you're in your early 20s, to bank your stem cells and then some smart guy in the future, some gal will thaw them and differentiate them, give you replacement, whatever you need. Okay. Yeah.

So if you're young and doing well, you really want to get a hormone test, you know, healthy levels of hormones and you auto get your stem cells banked. And yeah, I mean they've, they've gone.

From the cord blood, which when I was delivering babies as OB was like, oh, maybe someday, you know, you might get a solid tumor in your sibling can help this. It was like a theoretical use case, but now you just freeze the placenta. Several hundred bucks and your kid 80 years from now can get a replacement, whatever, from their own OEM stuff. That's what it's all about.

You know, I wish I'd have done that for my kids. You think I would have? At the time I had kids, I hadn't started.

Bulletproof.

Yeah, I was living in Palo Alto and it was, it was just a lot of money with no provable benefit. Or maybe someday it would have been nice to have them. But my kids can just get stem cells now. And if you're going to bank your cells, you can get fat cells or you can get marrow cells. Which ones are better?

Oh, okay, so let's talk about this. So when you talk about autologous stem cell. Right, so we're older, you know, you're whatever version. I'm whatever version so there's mutation. So we are strangers to our 20 year old self. But when they take out your lipo, they get what's called the stromovascular fraction. And in that there's a lot of stuff. And there's some stem cells too. Not everyone is equipped or able to isolate the ones that you want, clonally expand them, store them like money in the bank. So it's kind of like an act of faith that it's going to help. Oftentimes it does help. I mean, anecdotally, people say I got better from my own stem cells, but again, younger is better. Bone marrow, there are MSCs in there. They're also hematopoietic stem cells, which is the name of the game. So I really think no one's working on the real problem. You know, you get all these gazillionaires who are trying to hack aging. But, you know, something that would really benefit us would be just getting better at handling stem cells. Right. Do a bone marrow biopsy. Get your, you know, the kind like rmi, they did the endothelial, they did the MSC type and the, the big one is the hematopoietic. Yeah. Because aging really is very closely intertwined with immune aging. It's when your immune system goes down, you get cancer. Jack Lalanne in his mid-90s, healthy as a horse, taken out by a common cold. So, yeah, it's all about your immune. So if we can do this relatively trivial engineering task of harvesting our own naive T cells, CD28 positive cells, expand them and store them away, we can just keep on recharging the cell phone instead of have burner phones as bodies.

So for, for listeners, if you go to daveasprey.com rmi that'll take you to the episode where I talk about how I got my actually 2 billion marrow cells taken out without tapping into my marrow. I have had a bone marrow biopsy twice. People say, oh, it's one of the most painful things you can do. It's not painful, it's just weird. I'll never forget the feeling of, you know, tapping on my bones. Yeah, like your whole skeleton sort of shakes it. What is that? And then the final thing is like this, like fingernails on a blackboard. But it's, it's when.

It's definitely fear factor stuff.

Yeah, it's weird. But on, on pain, it was like three out of ten. Pain. Yeah, it's not, it's not pain. It's just creepy. It's like, it's like letting A spider walk on your face that can't bite you. Like, you know it's not going to bite you, but you really don't like it.

Yeah.

So, okay. Now, those get to be pretty expensive procedures. You know, RMI has a unique technology to get it. Get your marrow cells, many of them, that you can bank. So I chose to do that. But that's out of reach for a lot of people. If you were to call up a local provider and say, you know, I want to get some stem cells, like, maybe they'll come to you. You're in LA most of the time. So let's say I'm in la. Say, all right, Ed, I want to get some exosomes in my knee. What's it going to run?

I mean, that could be 1500. Okay. Yeah. So it.

It's sub five grand, right?

I mean, a lot of people on the street are charging, you know, 2, 3, 4000, but I don't see it. I think it's a long game because the more. More of my patients are repeat customers, because once you get them and they go, oh, my God, my shoulders have been fine. Come do my knees. You really. There's no competition in this field for doctors because every patient is a repeat customer for life. Got it. So, you know, the attribution bias is interesting. Like, I treated this bazillionaire and his shoulder got 25 better. And he said, this stuff is terrible. And he, like, slandered me, but he didn't say it as, like, well, I've had pain for 20 years, it got 25% better. Maybe I can do it two or three more times. So, you know, sometimes people get rich because they're parsimonious. You know, it's like, if, you know, it worked, why didn't you just do it again? So that's why I had to learn. Attribution bias is huge. Like, you know, I showed Bauman the picture, you know, the hair restoration specialist, he does every thing in the silo from light to hfu, and he's like, no way. That's Propecia. This guy, really? You know, if people go to my book, they'll see it on my website. Recharge Biomedical. This guy grew a chia head, and it was just outrageous. But I'm not going to sit here and say, that's a home run for everyone. I'm probably like three for 10.

Well, it's also because the causes of baldness, there's so many. So if you have a mitochondrial or maybe an immune thing. Yeah, maybe It'll work. So I would say that's probably worth doing. And I. It's been a long time since I've had exosomes in my hair because it's actually doing great post. Post the transplant I did. It's. I haven't lost any on top where I was. You can't see the top of your head. But when I saw it, I was like, oh, my God. Like there's. I'm missing some stuff up there. And it's, it's back, it's still a little thinner, but all the transplanted hairs are there and I wouldn't mind. In fact, I, I will bet within three years we have differentiated stem cells for making hair follicles. And you'll be able to just have them wherever you want.

Yeah, probably. I mean, right now we just have the one trick, right? Msc, but, you know, you can make neural stem cells, hair follicle stem cells, kidney stem cells, liver, whatever, and extract their exosomes. So there'll be more specific ones in the future if we ever get some of these trials through. So the FDA is happy to cash checks. There's about a dozen trials going through for like long Covid infertility, yada, yada, you know, Crohn's. And it's because it's. People in the field are finding it's working. So once we get that FDA approval, then people exhale a little bit and be like, well, we can use these off label.

It's weird. Do you think that people trust the FDA to give them good medical advice even now?

Yeah. I mean, I think the FDA serves a good role, but, you know, the problem is that the majority of their revenue is from trials. So they really developed under the ecology of the beltway. Right? So lobbyists, drug companies, they're really looking at, you know, billion dollar products for small molecules. But because the effect is so natural and profound, they don't even have to do these giant enrollment studies. But they don't know that much about stem cell biology. But they're not alone. Nobody does. I mean, I went to the Exome conference. It's only, what, 11 years old? Because people didn't even know about. Actually 16 years old.

My biohacking conference is older than the exosome conference. Insane.

It is insane.

We're 13 years old.

But I'll tell you, you know, I. One of my. I wrote a graphic novel and I translate into a bunch of languages and one of my Korean translators, husband did a Silicon Valley startup thing. So it was like the three generations of The Drapers and some Korean companies. And. And so I remember thinking, what a weird culture. Like, people brag about how they failed. And so I. But I realized the wisdom of that. You know, it's like when I went to the Spring Melbourne, this is a thousand PhDs, some of the smartest people from 100 countries. And their biggest flex is I was publishing papers and it was totally wrong for years. So, you know, it takes a lot of wisdom to say I embrace my misunderstandings and now, you know, I'm better for it. So I think that's really great. I'm not impressed with people who just have one trick and one advice. It's always this or always that. It's like, can you change? You know, I've a million views on YouTube on telomeres, and now I don't even measure my own telomeres. You know, I'm not saying it's worthless, but, you know, you. Yeah, it's like I used to do my blood, send it to four labs simultaneously, and they come year over year, the same, but numbers like 7, 9, 11, 13. So they're totally different methodologies. That's the problem.

I've also seen people, you know, get 20 years younger on telomere, test in one week.

You send it to a different lab. That's exactly what I'm trying to tell you. So they have different standards, but what's your take on epigenetic age?

I think there's a lot of science behind your epigenetic age. The DNA methylation, huge amounts of data. And it's kind of funny because Peter Attia, he's a profound believer that you cannot extend human life. Like, that's the first chapter in his book.

It's ridiculous.

I don't know why people don't walk.

In front of a truck. That's one way of not extending.

Well, it's kind of funny. And he's like, well, yeah, there's no evidence that you can extend human life, so you're going to die at the normal age. But at least if you exercise all the time until then, then maybe you'll feel better. And I'm like, that's weird. But he just says it's not scientific. But I've talked to Steve Horvath, I've talked to the guys from Harvard.

Yeah.

And there are hundreds of doctors who've spent decades figuring out, how do we measure epigenetic age? And the crazy thing about this, if you get a true age test or something like that, they're so good, they can predict your grip Strength and your gate speed just on DNA methylation and grip strength and gait speed, how fast you walk are great predictors of longevity. But one of the signs that it's working is just by looking at your epigenetic age, you can predict grip strength.

Well, yeah, R squared correlation is in the mid-90s, so, you know, you can tell me whatever you want, live by your age, but it's like 95% correlation with the epigenetics age. So, yeah, I met Horvath years ago, and then I'm friends with a company that does the commercial implementation of all these different ABCD tests. Right. But the, the thing I asked once while I was in the board meeting, I was like, hey, guys, how good is. And we know that DNA makes an error in your, what, 7 billion base pairs only once every three replications. How good is this? And they all kind of shrugged. I'm like, okay, read the room. It's not that good. So I think my guess is that it's over 100 efficient. You know, in data, there's like lossless reproduction, right? This is gainy. So I think that that's part of the inherent bias towards gene silencing and getting old. And the senescence phenotype is that it would be dangerous, teleologically speaking, for you to open up gene expression because you're getting all these cancers and primitive behaviors. I think the bias is towards greater than 100% methylation copying. That's really hard to copy methylation. I mean, the guy I know, he actually invented the test for that. But it's not the kind of lossless reproduction that we have with DNA. But it's very highly correlated. You can't argue with that. But, you know, so what does it mean, though? What are the mechanisms? It's just data mining.

It's just like, you know, it is data mining. There's always cause and correlation. But if it's super highly correlated, I wouldn't argue that, you know, increasing methylation is a cause of extending your life with that much. We don't have the evidence to support that. No, but we do have great evidence that people with this set of DNA methylation things from their longevity protocols, they are aging less quickly.

Correlation 95. You don't get anything in nature that approaches 95% correlation. Call me before you do your CRISPR cast so I can talk you out of it.

Okay, so let's talk about that. Should we use CRISPR to edit our own cells? Would you believe there's an ancient plant medicine that might be the alcohol of the future. Except it doesn't impair your fine motor skills and it's not addictive. Well, it turns out there is and it's called true kava. Kava is a natural plant medicine that South Pacific islanders have used for over 3,000 years as a safe, non addictive alternative to drugs and alcohol. Kava naturally boosts your brain's main feel good chemicals like dopamine, serotonin and gaba. That provides you with more relaxation, more mental clarity, and it makes it easy to loosen up and connect with others in social situations. Maybe the most exciting thing about cava is that you get all of those mind soothing effects without any of the drunkenness, impairment, or addictive qualities that you might expect from alcohol or even some other substances you'll find at parties. Connoisseurs describe the true kava experience as a calm, enhanced state of natural sobriety. Trucava is a new form of stabilized full spectrum traditional kava that's third party lab tested for quality and safety. If you were with me at my bedtime, you would see me taking kava plex, which is Trucava's kava oil extract that I find just really improves my sleep. Visit trucava.com enter code dave15 and check out and get 15% off.

I'm not an expert in this, but it is, it is destructive editing. That's the thing. It's not precise.

Like that's the problem.

So you're introducing mutations to the genome. I mean, you, you and I both know Liz Parish somewhat, so she purportedly put what I don't know was follistatin telomerase, which is great. H. Turt, I think.

No, no, she wasn't doing.

Did she do Clotho?

No, Clotho's next. For a mini circle, she did myostatin.

Okay. Yeah, I mean, you know, I mean, good on you, mate. I just don't know that I would want to edit my genome. You know, that's the thing. I'm taking my chances just being alive and eating at 7:11, you know, why am I going to do that?

I've done the follow statin gene therapy with mini circle a couple times. I'm an advisor to them and the reason I'm willing to do it, AAV technology. No, it's not okay. It's. It's actually something that's very much like an exosome. It's a mini circle. So it's a tiny plasmid. Yes, a tiny plasmid. And it only lasts for two years and there's an off switch, so I'm not worried about that. And I'll probably go down and do something with Liz as well. But what I'm not going to do is edit my genome permanently.

Yeah.

And so I'm willing to introduce new genes in cells that then die so it doesn't stick around forever. So permanent changes, I'm not up for that yet, but I might be. But temporary changes that the mini circle stuff, my epigenetic age dropped by nine years from doing that and you see metabolic improvements across the board. So I mean, I'm, I'm all in on that, but there's a lot I.

Don'T know, you know? Yeah. So people love to say my epigenetic age went down X number of years, like the TRIM study people. But you know, I mean, there's many ways. You have seven pillars. I had four or five in my book that I wrote, the Telomere Miracle. But you know, to answer a question from 40 minutes ago, like, what can people do? Just don't do bad stuff. Like, you know, if you can help it. You know, we can talk about the ego and the spirit. But yeah, people who eat processed food, they don't move, they don't sleep well, they ruminate and perseverate over negative thoughts, they don't know how to breathe correctly. These are basic things that are correlated with increased telomerase activity, which then is increased with living longer and it costs you nothing.

There you go. Avoid toxins, eat good food. And that's probably not a bunch of random plants either. Like the kind of food that's highly nourishing and don't hate yourself or others. And that last part is really hard to do.

Right, Right. I never, I just was reading about Vipassana. Right. Which is. I think it's really cool that people pay. You don't have to pay because the people who benefited pay. But I don't really understand it. So it's like you just see the world as it is. But I think that's really, you know, the alchemy. Right. People have their trauma stories. I really think we talked about past lives before. But ego and trauma is like your story. And all this victimization, it really disempowers people. So if they can switch that, it's maybe spiritual bypass, but they can make something meaningful and a lesson and maybe something they even like invited into their life. That's great. But now my kick. You told me about what you thought was a past life and I've had another medical doctor tell me and several other shamans and patients. So this has been my year of visiting, like Brian Weiss and thinking about that. I was always a big, big skeptic. But the people are totally convinced and they're rational, they're not delusional. So I'm like, okay, maybe there's something. And I think maybe chronic illness is like echoes from past lives. Like, I know the ego stuff is the trauma that people carry is from childhood. A lot of times it really makes you wonder.

It's funny. I mean, I, I have been to a monastery in Nepal and I've studied with masters of different lineages. At that monastery, I did a ten day silent meditation. It wasn't a full vipassana, but similar. And I've, you know, I've fasted in caves and I've done shamanic training and been to South America and found a real shaman before ayahuasca was, you know, was something that, that anyone who wasn't native would do. This is back in 1999. So I've, I've really learned from lots of lineages and I'm fully convinced there are past lives. And as a computer science guy, I would have never believed any of that. I know I've. I've seen enough of them and I've correlated things that in ways that I could not otherwise have done, things that just wouldn't make sense otherwise.

But, you know, I'm thinking like, you know, because the thing, the math wasn't mathing for me for a while, as my kids would say. So I'm like, how many people can be Cleopatra, Napoleon? But then you think you take a drop of Napoleon. I think it's all. We're just like tying into that matrix. I don't even know what an akashic record is, but people are downloading these things and live and manifesting them. It's kind of cool. You know it.

There's clearly a lot of BS out there in that realm. But when I look at how much Pfizer is paid in fines, 10 billion and counting. There's a lot of BS in other parts of the world.

Oh, that was just Vioxx. Yeah. I mean, to address your question about whether people trust the fda, it depends, you know, like, I was trying to educate people in 2021, so I did nine blogs about what coronavirus is, what's immunity, what's the epidemiology. The upshot was all my Sardis friends who went to like my high school, my college, my med school, they're all like, how dare you, heretic you know, and then they passed a law in California, AB 2098. You can lose your license for. It was two paragraphs, poorly written. Covid disinformation will make you lose your license. And it was just like my, even my niece was like, you don't know anything. I'm like, okay, I got a medical degree, a master's in public health. But you're going to trust Anderson Cooper and Pfizer, who wants to hide their records for 75 years? Yeah, anytime someone wants to hide records for 75 years, there's a body buried somewhere.

I am really hopeful that Bobby Kennedy comes in. I've had a chance to spend time with him at a meal. And oh, my gosh, if he came in, he believes in real science. And I mean, I'm impressed.

The guy, you know, he's taken the culture from vaccines are safe. Like parroting. And now people are, like, questioning. But I think, you know, that's the thing about the human animal. We really thought it was going to be close this election. And no, politics aside, you know, I'm not, I hate politics. But actually, people are not as dehumanized as they appear. Yeah. Like, their brain is still connected to their heart. It's not just the root chakra. So people are like, well, wait a second. If cousin Timmy and Aunt George and his wife died within a week of getting a spike protein mRNA, maybe it wasn't good for them. They won't say it out loud because.

How dare you say the audience.

But, you know, it's, it's a thought experiment. And I, I was, my son was very proud. He came to me, I got vaccines, and I'm like, that's fine. I, I, you know, it says right there on the penultimate paragraph, you might get myocarditis. He did get a mild case of myocarditis, but, you know, people will fool around. They'll find out, but that's okay. You know, it wasn't that effective as a bioweapon, but was it a good thing? Did it prevent transmission? Probably not.

No.

So, you know, the jury is out, but now people, I think that's the thing that made them question the FDA, because it's still not FDA approved. It was emergency use authorization. But there's about 15, 20% of people who are just like, all vaccine's good. Yeah. But I'm not sure that's the case. All vaccine's not good.

The reality is every medical intervention, every food, every supplement has an upside and a downside. And if you're unable to talk about the downside, then you can't say, oh, here's the data that shows healthy young men have far more heart risk than, say, an older person. So wouldn't it be weird if you worked with your medical care provider to decide what medical interventions were going to be best for you? Isn't that shocking?

It was such an inflection point. And, you know, some of us were enough connected to our intuition that they're like, this must be what it felt like. You know, Germany, 1935, this was what felt like, you know, Pol Pot, Cambodia in the 70s. Like, yeah, the fear. Once they get you in the root chakra, you'll believe anything.

So it turns off your thinking.

Yeah. So I, I told people, like, they're like, what's the science? I'm like, I'm trying to explain to you science. They're like, no, it's, it's. The science became political, but the politics itself became religious. And religion is something that moves forward, you know, on axioms, on dogma. So people were just totally disconnected. Yeah. One of my best friends from high school, college, both their parents died in the same year, you know, so does that mean anything? It's anecdotal, but if you look at the mass numbers of excess deaths during those years, I mean, the, it's. The numbers are big. So you got to attribute it to something. I mean, we're being gaslit. LeBron James, own son, who I'm sure had a healthy heart, had a cardiac arrest on the court. Right. And they're like, oh, it's all good. Let's get our fifth, sixth booster. I'm like, this stuff is not really something I want to be messing with.

Yeah. It's the fact that it. It's even now somewhat politicized. I wrote a. An article. One of. One of my top career achievements was Getting listed in factcheck.org so this is a website where people.

Oh, it's a badge of honor. If they call you a misinformation, it's a badge.

Like, thank you, guys. I wrote an article called the Pandemic Business Model. And I said, let's look at. Every four years, they come out with something like SARS or bird flu or whatever, and each time they find a couple really sick people and they say the death rate is some high amount, and then they. They make a couple billion dollars. Rumsfeld usually makes a lot of money on those. And then magically, two years later, in the back of a medical journal, they report the actual death rate. And on average, it's 1 65th of. Of the initial published one. So my prediction for the most recent pandemic was, when all the data is settled, that the death rate will be 165th of what they announced. I was spot on.

Well, that's disturbing that you can predict the direction and the magnitude of the lie.

They didn't like an article about the pandemic business model, and my reach was reduced by 95% for a year or two.

Oh. I mean, but this is the problem with censorship in general. Yeah. Because, you know, there are a lot of white supremacists in the Deep South. You're socially unviable, so you got to go to, like, other states where. Because if you speak your mind, people can hear your thoughts. If they disagree, there are repercussions. But, you know, I used to be a dye in the wool left guy, aclu, you know, naral, the whole nine. And I'm like, this is something we should not compromise on. Like, there's a reason why. It's the First Amendment. People need to be able to spout their stupid ideas so that we can know who the idiots are.

But amen.

All the media is like, we need more censorship. I'm like, when did you guys become this crazy right wing? Like, no. Yeah, it's just nuts.

The aclu, their job used to be to fight for free speech, and now they're fighting for censorship. And I think that's why the election.

It's like npr. Just write a check. Yeah. You know, you now own the aclu, now own npr.

Or you can own the fda too, apparently.

Well, that's always been their business on the Beltway fair. You know, we'll see what happens with these dudes. I don't know if these.

I hope it changes.

Yeah.

What's going to happen with exosomes and stem cells? Assuming that, okay, Bobby Kennedy runs the fda, are we going to have, like, a renaissance of longevity in the U.S. oh, yeah.

No. I mean, he's got so many fish to fry. I mean, if you believe the conspiracy theories. And I don't know where you get off, but, you know, look at the. The over of Stanley Kubrick. Right? Remember the first movie before 2001?

Which one was it?

It was How I Learned to Love the Bomb. Stop worrying and Love the bomb. Dr. Strangelove.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

So the crazy guy with erectile dysfunction, you know, he was like, oh, the fluoridation by the communists is giving me ed. Right? What happened last month? They said, oh, we're going to take the fluoride which is a byproduct of smelting Kaiser Steel Co. Out of the water because it's a neurotoxin. I'm like, wait, we've been telling us fluoride is good for 70 years, right? Like, what the hell?

It's funny. Fluoride is clearly not good for people. And I've been saying this for many years after getting into the research because I was running a longevity nonprofit group, and we're all saying, huh, Adequate thyroid function is important for longevity, and fluoride stops your thyroid.

I mean, my 25 year old was like, I don't want my pineal gland to be calcified. I mean, there's. At least with these fringy voices, you get a lot of noise. But there's some signal there, too. Because, like, I. If you told us that fluoride in the water supply was good and not just a way of dumping, like, your smelting byproduct, why are you switching it up now? So Bobby King has a lot of work to do. You know, Stanley Kubrick, I wrote five screenplays. I like screenplays. But Lolita, Right. It's like, what's up with that? Like, now we're getting the P. Diddy, the Jeff Epstein stuff. It's like this guy was trying to tell us stuff about how the world is run, but there's a lot of.

Creepy stuff out there.

Yeah.

And I'm with you, though. You should have the absolute right to be the stupidest, most wrong person on the planet and say what you think.

That's it.

And anyone.

Right.

Yeah. Anyone who tries to stop you from doing that is an enemy of humanity. Because if I can tell you to shut up because I don't like what you say, you can tell me that. And then we live in a really uncomfortable world.

Yeah.

And it feels like the last five years have been this weird, maybe 10 years, this weird blip of, like, canceling people who say the wrong thing and just creating this fear. And it's affected the longevity world, the biohacking world. It's affected medical decision making, and there's no excuse for it. So at this point, if someone tells me to shut up because I don't like what I say, I just say, look, you look like you've been triggered. Like, yeah, what you said is wrong. Great. If you can be triggered, you're carrying a loaded gun.

Yeah.

And that's probably not legal in your state. Or maybe we're in Texas. It is legal, but it's probably not polite. So you should Get a therapist. And that's the bottom line.

You know, the problem is I'm not like a John Bircher or Heritage foundation guy, but, you know, a lot of these modern social justice movements that claim that there's one enemy, which is the cis, straight male, white colonist, capitalist, yada yada, when you really break it down, it's about division and conquering. So, like, people now feel like men are the enemy or white people are the enemy. Like, this is not the dream that Martin Luther King had in mind. You know, this is the exact opposite of what we're striving for. But, you know, I have three nieces that went to liberal arts colleges and they're all, you know, non binary. They're all allies of this, that and the other. But, you know, the monkey wrench was like, well, why are we doing this to civilians in Gaza? Like, that was the part that didn't compute. So. But as long as you tell someone who to fear, it's like 1984, five minutes of hate. It's like their life has meaning, it's enriched, it's purposeful. Like they don't see the big picture. They're just like passionate about, you know, taking down the patriarchy.

The difficulty with hating any group of people is that hate costs you too much.

Yeah.

And I don't care if you want to hate, you know, white men like me or if you want to hate anyone, it doesn't matter. It will make you old. It will make you have a shitty life. So if we could have classes on forgiveness. And I've, I've just gone on from cancel culture to redemption culture. People do stupid all the time. How do you make it right kind of stuff. I mean, I 40 years is in my neuroscience company and we teach just deep forgiveness. If you're, if you're ruminating, you know, this politician did this one thing or, you know, I, I hate whatever group of people, dude, life is too short to hate. And if you measure telomeres, you measure epigenetic aging, you measure brain waves, all of those. If you spend your time hating or thinking you're a victim, it makes you old.

I gotta see Wicked. You know, I love that I met Stephen Schwartz one time at a musical theater workshop. But you know, the, the whole take home point is like Elphaba is it she doesn't have to be green and have the nose. She chooses to be the victim because she's empowered, she's centered. A lot of people are really centered in their rage and it's just not healthy. I agree with you. It's like, open up a little bit, let different viewpoints in. And I think that's kind of the lesson of this election. I never imagined it would be this kind of landslide, but a lot of people just weren't buying that. You know, you have to be unequivocally in favor of unfettered immigration of trans rights. Even if, like, someone wins a gold medal with a micro penis for punching a woman, like, that's like, people are still connected to their hearts and their minds. So that makes me happy.

And I. I like to think of a world where we just embrace kindness.

Yeah.

And I'm all for people being whatever they want to be. I don't have any issues, totally fine.

With anybody doing whatever they want. But if you're going to come and have, you know, martial arts, like Joe Rogan says, and punch my daughter, I mean, there's a clear choice you have to make between human rights and women's rights, and that's fine.

The bottom line is you're allowed to. To identify as whatever you want to be and you're allowed to do anything you want to your biology to totally support that. That doesn't mean you could do what you want to other people or make them do things for you. Because if you can make other people do something, then they can make you do something.

And.

And then we're going to have a conflict. So I just like, kindness and tolerance and acceptance are the only thing that creates peace.

Yeah.

And that means that you can do whatever you want. You cannot do it to me.

Yeah.

And if we maybe there's going to be a return to that. I don't know. There's a lot of craziness in politics.

May all beings be happy and free. Right. So let them be at peace. Yeah.

Now, if someone gets their brain to work better, let's say that they do exosomes.

Yeah.

That sinus thing that I want to try. And they get more energy in their brain. My experience is that they generally are harder to program. They're less reactive, they're more peaceful. They can break out of the victim cycle. Have you ever noticed that?

That's what I'm living the last seven and a half weeks. Like, that's why I was like, oh, my God, I'm gonna worry more and be depressed. But there's just so much more reserve, like stuff that would have just set me off the deep end. And I'm just like, okay. Six seconds later, I'm just doing what I need to do somewhere else. And like even my dream state for the last 10 days has been totally qualitatively different. Wow. So like when I'm dreaming, I'm actually in a lucid state. I'm thinking of, you know, reading the social cues, I'm thinking of my choices, my options, my internal monologue. And it's very like experiential too, like sensory wise. So I'm like, that must be some kind of upgrade. I must have gotten a few more cores in the CPU or something.

There is, you know what they talk about an awakening in the brain. And I, I've seen this because we do a lot of deep spiritual stuff that happens at 40 years and people are there, they're getting a brain upgrade. But along the way, like, oh, I didn't realize the amount of energy that I was wasting on being angry at something old that I almost forgot about. So in, in my world, let's see, increase energy in the brain, increase neuroplasticity and exosomes can help with both of those, I think. So you do that and then spend less energy on old grudges or new grudges. And if you do that, like, wow, there's so much capacity in there. But if you waste the energy on grudges or you just don't have it in the first place, you don't have freedom and you don't have peace.

I think that's such an important point. And if you talk about like whether it be through plant medicine, as they call it now, euphemistically, you know, you can see people have never spent five seconds except dreaming, which is a different kind of. Their entire life is identified with their software, with their ego, their identity, their story. Yeah. And to just spend a few hours outside that, be like, oh my God, there's a whole new world and my consciousness is helping me parse it out or keep it out. It's transformative. So a lot of people are like recovering from ptsd, mood disorders with plant medicine. But I think that's such an exciting change. And even the medical establishment, instead of trying to mollify or just dull down symptoms of sadness, like look at the, the root causes because, you know, I didn't know what functional medicine was until three years ago. But I'm like, you know, the stuff they taught us in med school, we maybe got two hours of nutrition right. And it's mainly like vitamin disorders and stuff like that. Like, you know, deep breathing exercise, they don't even teach that at all. So we're experts at disease maintenance, recognizing rare zebras but like when you're really honest, you say what really causes illness? Usually it's the weird stuff in our head that we, we worry. Then our cortisol shoots up, we don't sleep, we self medicate our trauma with bad things, you know, so I think it's better to get into a peaceful place. That's the biggest hack, biggest upgrade.

You ever use ketamine in your practice?

I do not, but I know it's become popular last four years and I. There's two kinds, right. So there's insight oriented therapy at low dose and there's just complete dissociative.

Right.

I think it does, it's short acting, can be controlled. But I'm agnostic, I know people that are experts that use it. But I think maybe, perhaps psilocybin is more natural, I think probably LSD is less natural. But I'm not an expert in these things.

So we do medically assisted ketamine therapy as an option at 40 years of Zen. It's a recent addition, the world's first psychedelic assisted neurofeedback program. And the changes in neuroplasticity that it brings on are so profound. And like I said, we, we're doing low doses on some days and we do a higher dose on one of the days and it's a customized dose on a per client basis, working with medical professionals for it just because the results are better. And I've always wondered what would happen if you did exosomes and ketamine because the neuroplasticity gifts are so great. For 72 hours your BDNF goes up for from ketamine.

No. I know it's been life changing for a lot of people.

Yeah.

But I think it's part of, it's just that dissociative experience. Right. Being apart from your ego and your story while awake is very therapeutic. You know, there's another way. Yeah. So that's really helpful for a lot of people who are just in that.

Rumination trauma mode and, and separating your consciousness from your body is really important. Like you are not your body, you know.

I tell you. You mentioned shamanism. Right. So in Melbourne, my good friend Antonia Rule, she's treated rock stars, you know, but I mean, the first time she treated me at a 4m, I had no expectation. There was no, like, tell me about your childhood or how do you feel about your mom? She was moving energy and then she said, which I thought was not true, but it is true, if you say I healed you, I will sue you. So What I, what I came to elicit from that was that the body is connected to spirit and so the spirit knows what you need to do. So let me just tell you, in that 30 minutes when she was doing whatever, I went back to childhood and I saw all the things that were perceived traumas as like a, you know, Ebenezer Scrooge floating over, you know, Carol. Right. And it was like not anything I consciously did. So my point is the spirit, right, the subconscious, whatever Jung would call it, it knew what I needed to do to move forward. To alchemize.

Exactly.

So I saw my parents as just normal people that had really traumatic childhoods themselves. So that intergenerational trauma, I've seen it in my own son. You're right. The neuroplasticity, the ability to imagine a different way and the desire, the courage to take steps. Like the quote was, you know, nature loves courage, it rewards courage. So, but a lot of people, I mean the two most common things in people is what, laziness and fear. So a lot of people do not become the heroes of their own adventure.

You know, they don't. And it's, it's really kind of funny when you look at, at all the shamanic interventions. You take someone like me, Western trained computer scientists, grow up mostly atheist, agnostic, direct experience and then learning from people who've studied it for thousands of years and you just realize I might have been a little brainwashed where instead of being curious about something I've said, well, I know that can't be, therefore it isn't. And that's one of the things we're dealing with in, in Big Pharma. And what I've learned through just creating the biohacking movement is the body is an antenna for the spirit. And the healthier the body and the more power it makes, the better you can listen, the better you can tune in and then the more you can create because you listen better and you can take more action. And if, when you have more energy, you don't put the energy into being a victim or being angry or being a perpetrator. Yeah, like, man, there's a lot of good inside of people, but if the body is weak, it doesn't work. And so if you go down the longevity path and you know, you get your access homes and you do all the other longevity stuff I talk about, at a certain point you're going to have so much energy that you realize you probably believe something that isn't true and you'll start working on that.

No, now People as they. As their gravitas increases. And I'm not, don't know about sons and all that, but there's so many people that believe in. You start to believe in yourself and. And then you lose that ability to pivot. So it's really important to be always open to being wrong. That's why I think it's such a great flex for exosome scientists, for VC people at Google Ventures to say, these are my failures. You don't want to be failure, but, you know, keep your mind open because there's a lot that we don't know. I like what Brian Johnson says. Like, my first four ideas are probably derivative. I'm like, waiting for an interesting original thought. So that was cool. It.

It's totally true. And funny enough, we don't really know if you read a book. I've been teaching this to my kids. It's like installing a new app on your phone. It's a new way of looking at data. So every time you read at least a good book, it's a new way of seeing the world. Right? So you're kind of collecting all these things, but your brain will mix them all together and you won't necessarily know where you got it and you won't necessarily know all the influences. And we're seeing exactly that in AI.

I think that's so great. The rate all these silos are developing, the large language models, they're doing similar things. But I used to be really fearful of Skynet and all that. And I think it's really prone to type one and two errors. And it's not that smart as you were challenging ChatGPT. So it's gullible, but it makes some great pictures. You can come up with an idea and put it on Gemini or midjourney. I'm like, damn, that's good. I don't have to go hire someone to do that. There are a lot of good use cases. Would I get in a vertical takeoff and landing car with a old firmware update? I don't know if I would, to be honest with you.

It's getting pretty good. I mean, you can upload your lab test results to one of the AI engines and not one that's medically trained either, just a general one. And say what supplements or interventions are likely to move my parameters in a healthier direction. And he'll tell you, and. And it's right. It's pretty good. It's pretty good. It's not the same as a doctor, but.

But, you know, I still maintain that we are the best quantum computers. We live in a non determinate state, right?

Oh yeah.

If, if I told you, hey, Dave, the guy you thought was your dad was actually an axe murderer and he murdered your real dad, all of a sudden everything would totally change in your perception, right? So we live in this very fuzzy world. We're the best quantum computers. So I think that, you know, I'm not that trustworthy of it, just like I'm not that trustworthy of government agencies. But I think people can really trust their intuition. Like they know, they love to see the dark hair or whatever. But you know, when you're having a good day and like you said, most of the time when you have a good day, you're in gratitude, you're in abundance. But the main thing I took away from the nasal exosomes, which you can see if you go to tinyurl.com exosome EXO. Oh EXO. W E B45. You'll see me put my hair up on end. I can do that at will. Wow. Yeah.

So I think exosomes did that just gave you more control of my nervous system.

I don't know. It happened two hours after my first nasal shot. Hasn't gone away in five years. So it's like an ability that people have, but it just unlocked it. Like you paid the 4.99 and the app got unlocked. So we talk, we speculate as to what that is with the nadis and the chakras. But anyway, there's a lot I don't know. So it's cool that you're open to the Vedic traditions and you know, there's just a lot we don't know. And they probably have been thinking about it at a deeper level, a more scientific level than Western culture since Descartes.

So some of the great wizards of our time are into that stuff. Daniel P. Brown came on. He's a Harvard professor studying hypnotherapy for 40 years. In his spare time he translates 13th century science, Sanskrit, cave meditation texts.

That's hilarious.

And okay, like there's all this old knowledge that's just sitting there that, that we've been accumulating as humans.

And that's the thing, like yeah, the downloading. That's why I think my dream state has changed. Like it's so like the fifth and sixth cycle, you know, in the sleep architecture is totally different now. Qualitatively different. Wow. So I, I think like some guy was saying that he did Ivy dmt, some kind of highly something potent version and he was seeing interdimensional chipmunks that were speaking to him telepathically. So who knows what's out there? But once you connect to Source, it's like, you know, hundredth monkey stuff. Like, it's crazy now.

So would you say you've connected to Source?

I mean, we're all connected. I think all children till they're seven, are psychic. I mean, everyone reads nonverbal cues, so we're all kind of somewhat connected. I don't think I'd want to be connected all the time. I think that would be not just ego death, but personality death. Like, we'll get there in time. We'll go all go to the white light. But I don't know that I'm always connected. But I do know that, you know, writing screenplays, like, you have this feeling like it's not. You're not making. It's coming through you. And that's a pleasant feeling.

All right, let's talk about being a healer versus being a doctor.

Yeah.

The best doctors that I know of are also healers. And I know healers who aren't doctors, like your shaman friend. And when people have had a decade plus experience working with patients, how often do you rely on intuition when you're working with a patient?

I mean, always. Like, you know, when I wrote the teleplate for House md You know, he has a saying, everyone lies, right? So, you know, but even in the lies, there's truth. So you always have to parse out. That's why I don't really trust AI diagnostics, because, you know, people sometimes lie about what they're feeling and they don't know why. So it's important to use intuition. What are they really telling you? You know, and there's a lot of secondary gain in the way people access the system. In other words, the illness becomes their identity as well. So, yeah, I mean, it's very important to be able to read what they mean and then understand where their knowledge deficits might be. And a lot of times, you know, these days with Dr. Google and the Internet search engine.