Simple Lifestyle Changes to Prevent Dementia with Max Lugavere | 1174 | Dave Asprey

Once you've been diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease, you are essentially in late stage Alzheimer's disease, even at the very beginning. This is a condition that's been simmering in the brain for years prior to the onset of symptoms.

I've interviewed a few firefighters to ask what causes fire, and they're all convinced that smoke causes it. That's where we are with Alzheimer's right now. They're looking at things that are outputs of Alzheimer's and assuming they're the cause without any clear evidence that they are the cause.

Yeah, I mean, you might as a, as a non fireman might be inclined to think that firemen cause fires. Right. Because they're always there at the scene of the fire.

It's a conspiracy, see, isn't it?

Must be.

You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey. You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey and none other than my friend Max Lugaver. We're going to talk about dementia because Max cares a lot about dementia and actually so do I, because dementia sucks. Max, welcome back on the show.

Thanks, Dave. It's great to be here.

All right. You just did a big documentary that just came out called Little Empty Boxes talking about dementia. Just from a really personal perspective. You and I have Both been on Dr. Oz talking about Alzheimer's and mitochondrial function. You've written books, I've written books on this. And we both just don't want brains that are dysfunctional. Why is it a big deal for you?

Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me on the show. It's always a treat to get to talk to you, and it's kind of a homecoming for me in a way, because you were the first big podcast to have me on back about 10 years ago now when we first launched the crowdfunding campaign for this documentary, which is now coming out 10 years later.

Ah, that's so cool.

Yeah. So I just want to say thank you for being an early adopter of me and my work and for supporting from day one. It's really special and this documentary means the world to me. It's. It's really the first ever feature length film covering the topic of dementia prevention. So it's really, I think, paying homage to the science of dementia prevention, which is still in its infancy, I think, but very much in a place where we have garnered actionable insights that pave a roadmap in terms of how we might live, how we might eat to reduce our risk for this awful condition, which now affects 55 million people globally. And as you alluded to, for me, it's incredibly personal. The film captures what I went through with my mother over a span of four to five years, beginning in around 2015, where she started to exhibit the earliest symptoms of what would ultimately be diagnosed as a rare form of dementia called Lewy Body dementia, which is akin to having both Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's disease at the same time. And it was heartbreaking and traumatic to witness. My mom was the most important person in my life, and it was a film that really, I think I. I think it's the most intimate portrait of dementia that's ever been produced. And I think part of that has to do with the fact that I, the filmmaker, was living with it for five years with my mom. And. And I think anybody. Anybody who's ever, you know, suffered from the. From having a family member with the condition will certainly relate to it.

My grandmother.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we, we. And that was actually the impetus for my first book, Genius Foods, where I realized that, you know, the. The same steps that you can take to batten down the hatches and buy yourself additional years, if not decades, of cognitive health also improve the way that your brain works in the here and now. And, you know, we can look to the burgeoning field known as nutritional psychiatry, which is showing us that, you know, a whole foods diet, a diet rich in healthy fats and fatty fish and the like, actually can improve mood, you know, can reduce symptoms of depression to the point of remission in some cases. And so, yeah, that was very. A very empowering insight and one that I, you know, essentially exploited to Trojan horse this, you know, this concept of dementia prevention into the millennial zeitgeist, you know, because I figured the only reason why I care about dementia is because I'm seeing it in my family. But had my mom not developed it, I probably, like other young people, would have, you know, continued to consider dementia as some far off abstraction that might affect me when I'm in my 80s. And, you know, at that point, who cares? Right? But. But no, it's absolutely true that the same steps that we can take to reduce our risk today also seem to improve the way that our brains work, which is an amazing value add.

I have shifted my. My language use around that based on my audience. And when I talk with people in their 20s, which is a big audience for me, like, here's the stuff that I wish I knew in my 20s, and, like, you don't have to be tired at the end of your meeting, right? You can be the only one in the room who still has all your faculties at the end of the day. And you'll probably get a raise because of it. And it's almost like seeing it. Oh, and by the way, you won't get Alzheimer's, right? But I, I just had a hard time selling it. And I like your documentary because you make it really personal. And it may be that for a lot of us, the first time we're going to use the information in little empty boxes is to show it to our parents and say, look, you know, you got to do some stuff now so that we can help them. And as that happens sometimes, at least in my case, if I want my parents to do something, I can say, you should do it. And then of course they're gonna say, well, why would I do that? You know, but if I say, well, look, I did this and it made a major difference, then they're more likely to do it. Or I guess very specifically in my case, I can also just say, oh, it's not for you. And then they'll do it. Because reverse psychology does work on parents. Here's something for you. If you dread allergy season, it might make you forget it's even happening. It's armor colostrum. Colostrum is one of nature's powerful bioactive foods. And it's the first nutrition that everyone receives when they're born so they can thrive for their entire life. Armor colostrum has over 400 bioactive ingredients that strengthen your body's barriers and create cellular health. There are thousands of research backed benefits. And when it comes to allergy season, you want to get some armor of colostrum. Colostrum strengthens your respiratory barriers to change how your body interacts with allergens. When you strengthen your body's barriers in your nose, your sinuses, your lungs, you can manage how your body responds to those environmental allergens. So if you want natural support during allergy season and beyond, Armora Colostrum is your friend. Go to tryarmra.com Dave and get 15% off your first order. That's T-R-Y-A R M R A.com Dave.

I made the film to be watched by anybody. I mean, it's a film that anybody will relate to. I mean, in fact, we, we've had a series of premieres, theatrical premieres at this point in New York, in Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago. And the people that show up really run the gamut in terms of demographics. I Mean, we, you know, young people, like people, kids who are still in college studying, you know, nutrition, for example, or exercise science. Older adults, like senior citizens, will show up to watch it. Kids with their parents come to see the show, which is, by the way, a very powerful watch, to watch it with a parent, a loved one. So, yeah, it is. It is a film designed to really get under your skin and show you what it really is, what having dementia really is like. And, and, you know, if that doesn't call, compel a person to act, I don't know what will. I mean, once you, once you see what dementia is really like, I mean, it is. It's a. A beast of a disease.

What's the incidence of dementia look like in the general population?

Well, today, about 55 million people have it globally, dementia. And within that, you know, most cases are Alzheimer's type dementia, which is the most common form of dementia in the United States. About 6 million people have Alzheimer's disease alone. But I think the important thing to note is that Alzheimer's disease is not the only form of dementia. There's vascular dementia, Lewy body dementia, Parkinson's disease, dementia, frontotemporal dementia. And, you know, I focus a lot on Alzheimer's disease in my research because it is the most common form and therefore there's the. The most research, you know, tends to, you know, be sort of investigating why people develop Alzheimer's disease. You know, there's a lot less research, for example, on the form that my mom had, which is called Lewy Body Dementia. Although that research is starting to come out in terms of prevention. But, yeah, a lot of people are experiencing it. A lot of people. We're seeing increased rates across the age spectrum.

Right.

Which I think is important to note that this isn't just that, you know, we're living longer. We're seeing higher prevalence across different age demographics. And so there really is an aspect of the modern world, the modern diet and lifestyle that does seem to be increasing our risk for this, for this category of conditions.

All right, I've got to ask you something that's not related to this. And we'll get back into this. You spoke at the last biohacking conference, and at the time you were single, and all the women in the audience were just like, oh, my God, you know, Max, Max. So you have a large following. Are you still single, actually, as we record this?

No, I've met a wonderful girl and I've been dating her for the past six months, and her name is Stephanie and she's Amazing. And actually, it's funny. She's a huge fan of yours.

Well, let's all go to dinner sometime. I'll bring my girlfriend, too.

She has mold sensitivity, and she hails your documentary about mold as one of the most illuminating works that she's seen that really gave a voice to this condition, that she felt really sort of isolated.

Wow, that makes me really happy. I. I know how crazy you can feel when you have mold because mold causes symptoms of dementia. It'll go away when you get rid of the mold. And even Dale Bredesen, I think, is a mutual friend who wrote the book the End of Alzheimer's, came on the show and talked about some of the causes, including toxic metals like mercury and lead and aluminum, as well as toxic mold and, you know, things that involve your metabolism and all these other various. I think he has five. Five things. But what comes out when you look at all the Alzheimer's research is that women get it twice as often as men. And. And that's why Maria Shriver has been on the show. I support the. The women's Alzheimer's movement. Why do you think that women are getting Alzheimer's more than men?

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I've spoken to Dr. Lisa Moscone at length about this, who is.

She's been on, too. She's great.

Yeah, she is great. And, you know, I don't think that we. No. Although that. That menopausal change does seem to alter hormones in a way that does seem to present a threat to the brain. And as you mentioned. Yeah. Two thirds of Alzheimer's patients are women. Being female increases your risk by twofold as compared to men. And my mom was, you know, obviously, she was one of the. She was a. She was a statistic. And it's really heartbreaking. I also think it's not because a lot of people have the misconception that it's because women live longer. That's not the case. I think part of the milieu that puts women at higher risk is that estrogen seems to be protective over the brain. And then when, you know, during menopause, that rug is essentially pulled out from beneath, you know, a woman's feet. And for those who are vulnerable, you know, Apoe 4 carriers, for example, women who might already have pre existing insulin resistance, I think that that just presents sort of like a perfect storm for dementia risk. But, yeah, that is a. That's a. An area of ongoing research, and we certainly don't have all the answers. But. But yeah, Lisa's research is. Is fantastic in that regard.

I always go back to mitochondrial function, and around menopause, a lot of women end up gaining weight because of this estrogen change and oftentimes because of thyroid changes, both of which affect mitochondrial function negatively. And this is why bioidentical hormone replacement in men and women, it seems to reduce. Not seems in studies, it reduces risks of all kinds of things, including dementia and cardiovascular events. And that's for men and women, obviously, different hormones at different amounts. Was your mom using hormone replacement therapy?

She wasn't. No, she wasn't. She was. She was actually quite afraid of it because of the early studies that seemed to link it to an increased risk of cancer. So my mom was not on any kind of hormone replacement therapy.

I consider that to be sort of a crime against women, because a pharmaceutical drug that's not actually estrogen increased cancer risk. When people use bioidentical hormones at the right doses, they still think about cancer risk, even though the data is that it reduces cancer risk. So it's like the old story sticks, and the new research shows that when women go on bioidentical hormone replacement as soon as possible during perimenopause, that the lifelong reduction of risks from all kinds of things go down. But if you start it, you know, 20 years after menopause, you still get benefits, but they aren't as long lived and as dramatic. I think it has to do with that mitochondrial swing.

Yeah, I mean, that's. That's consistent with the conversations that I've had on my podcast. And, and, yeah, I know that there are a lot of factors that go into that decision of whether or not to take it. But. But, yeah, I mean, I would. You know, almost every man, every guy that I know is on TRT at this point, and there's. There seems to be no stigma about that. And yet I think there still continues to be a stigma for women and hrt. And I think that's something that we need to actively work to unravel because, you know, we are living longer today, and a woman spends more than 50 of her life essentially now in that postmenopausal state. So this is definitely something that we should be, you know, investigating, considering. And, you know, if I ever needed trt, I would without hesitation go on it if I ever wanted it. And, and. And I think women should. Should feel the same degree of. Of comfort about that decision.

I'm happy you said it that way. I. I know that some Luddite doctors swear about me. Well, Dave, you made TRT cool for men. I, I don't think I was the only one, but I will just say when I was 26 and I had lower testosterone than my mom, the cognitive effects of low testosterone that was driven by toxic mold and obesity and all sorts of other stuff, you don't have the zest for life and it affects cognitive function. And when women are low in testosterone or men, it's your tissues don't rebuild themselves as much. I feel like this is an important conversation. I'm glad you said that. There isn't a reason to be afraid. There is a reason to get your lab tests and work with a functional or a longevity doctor, I mean a real one. If your longevity doctor says I'm going to charge you a quarter million dollars and tell you you can't extend your life, that might not be a real longevity doctor. And there are some people out there doing that. What I'm talking about is one who says, well, you know, at a minimum, let's make sure that you have health for a normal lifespan. But our real goal is like, let's, let's give you a few more extra years and let's do our best. And I feel like anyone on that path, whether you're a man or a woman, whether you're 25 and having the symptoms of low testosterone, number one, fix your diet and your lifestyle, your sleep, all the biohacking stuff. And if it doesn't work, there's no shame in doing things to make your biology last as long as you want it to. And for me, I was interested in longevity as a young person because I'm a nerd, but I just wanted my brain to work. That was my first area of fear, because feeling your brain go away is terrifying. I was already. I'd been fat, I had arthritis since I was 14. But I just remember sitting in a meeting going, I wouldn't hire myself right now. And my career was just taken off and I got to do something. And so that was what led me down. The smart drugs and nootropics and cognitive enhancement stuff, which led me to becoming active in the longevity, the longevity movement maybe. Geez, in the late 90s. And it's been such a gift because I learned biohacking, including the brain and the body from my elders. And I, I just have this dream of, of women and men, you know, your mom's age who have their full mental faculties, but they have the energy that we have. Because imagine the wisdom if, like, if you go to any hundred year old out there and like, oh, yeah, I've seen that five times. And they're just so supercharged and willing to share. And, and that's the dream that I have is I, I want wisdom to return to the world and you have to have a brain without dementia. Because if you've earned wisdom, probably through a lot of suffering in your life, we all go through painful things and then you're not able to share it because you're too tired or you can't remember it. That's just wasteful, like the worst way. And so I think your documentary is going to make a difference in that maximum.

That's my hope. I mean, a lot of people feel hopeless about conditions like dementia and we certainly don't have all the answers. You know, my documentary doesn't present a magical diet. You know, we try to paint with very broad strokes what, you know, what prevention might look like from, from a really holistic standpoint. I mean, we do touch on diet because I think it's important. But we also mentioned, for example, the fact that, you know, people that have chronic surgeries, you know, putting, putting, you know, undergoing undue surgeries puts your brain at risk, you know, and my co director in the project, Chris Newhard, he, he began editing the project and just as he had begun working on the film, his mother in law underwent a surgery and she was cognitively healthy going into it and she came out of it with dementia and she had to be basically, you know, she needed subsequently round the clock care. And you know, so he, he, from one day to the next had, you know, had his own personal dementia story. And that gave him, I think, a, a passion for the film that's evident when you watch it. And, and yeah, so we, we try not to point a finger at any one single variable because I mean, dementia is, there are, it's a, it's a multifactorial condition, you know, and I don't think that, I think for, for each dementia patient there's likely, there are likely unique causal players. You know, for some it might be mold as you suggested. For some it might be, you know, chronic exposure to air pollutants. We know now that exposure to air pollution, particularly 5 fine particulate matter, is a newly identified modifiable risk factor for dementia. Obviously diet plays a huge role in terms of its ability to create other modifiable risk factors like obesity, like type 2 diabetes, like hypertension. We know that hearing loss is a newly identified risk factor for dementia. So there, you know, there are lots of variables at play here and we try to, with broad Strokes, paint, you know, sort of a picture of, of, of, you know, how the modern world seems to be increasing our risk across the board for this condition. But there are no easy answers. And that's kind of what I want people to take away from the film. It's that, you know, we don't have a magic bullet solution at this point. I wish we did. But nonetheless, we are at a point where we no longer need to sit idly on our hands as we await, you know, whatever, whatever is in our sort of family lineage or our genetic hand of cards. We do have a degree of a roadmap and I think that's what's, what's important.

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Well, you know, my mom was the most important person in my life and I was in my, I think I had just turned 30 and I was really timing wise, in the prime of my career, or at least a point, the point in life where I should be putting all of my focus on my career. But because My mom was a woman who, you know, she was just really, the disease really took a toll on her and she was scared. And like any patient suffering the fog of war of chronic disease, which I know you've experienced, Dave, you know, you go into these doctor's offices and you're frightened, you're confused. You only get about 15 minutes on average with your average physician these days. Right. And so for me, I felt that it was really important to put my life on hold so that I could show up and support her during that time and become essentially her patient wingman. And so I was living in la, I was kind of doing my thing, trying to make it as a on camera journalist, which I, you know, had done previously for that, for the, for Current tv. But there's nothing more important than family and particularly when a loved one gets sick, you know, your world stops. And I experienced that firsthand. And so I decided to pack up my LA life. I moved back to New York and this is all documented in the film, and I started going with her to doctor's appointment after doctor's appointment and in every instance with my mom, you know, because I'm not a medical doctor, I, and at that point I didn't know a fraction of what I know now about this condition. I was just as scared as my mom. But, you know, I was an investigator of sorts, having spent the prior six years as a, as a journalist. So I knew that by going with her to these doctor's appointments, I could ask the questions that she was unable to. And that proved really helpful for my mom and my family. But nonetheless, what I experienced in those doctor's offices time and time again, I've come to call diagnose and adios. You know, a doctor would run a battery of esoteric tests, you know, titrate up the dose of a prescription or maybe give her an add on drug. And in fact, by the end of my mom's life, she was on about 14 different pharmaceuticals and, and it was really hard. And so that's actually, you know, that's part of the reason why I felt compelled to stand up and to learn as much as I possibly could as a citizen scientist, as a journalist and to spread the information that I was learning. And you know, I'm very grateful that, you know, I had a certain skill set and certain abilities that for one reason or, or another caused people to gravitate to the work that I was sharing. But, you know, and I'm super grateful for that. But at the end of the day, at the end of the day. I mean, the whole mission really was. It was actually quite selfish. It was about how I can better help my mom, better help my mom, support my family through this and provide solutions.

As a science journalist, how do you respond when people say you're not a scientist?

That's a, it's a, it's a really difficult criticism to receive because, you know, for one, journalists, like, they cover issues, right? Like, we live in a world where health and nutrition, it's so polarized, as with everything else today, seemingly in the modern world. But, you know, as a journalist, you're taught you, you are trained to investigate, you know, that is what the, what you're trained to do. And in fact, being a journalist gives you, I think, an advantage because, you know, PhDs are obviously essential, right, to scientific inquiry. But to become a PhD, you have to focus on these really small aspects of, of science, you know, whatever it is that you happen to be investigating. You know, molecular pathways, for example. Like some PhDs, they earn their PhD by investigating and publishing on really minute mechanistic pathways that are, I would say, you know, often fairly useless to the general population, provide very little in the way of actionable steps that one might take. And so we rely on their research, right? But in terms of actually providing a public health good today, with today's public health problems, right, I think that they're fairly limited. You know, oftentimes they. What I find is that they're very prone to losing the sight of the forest for the trees. And I didn't come at this with any sort of preconceived notions. And, you know, as a storyteller and as an artist, I felt very empowered actually, to be able to connect the dots between all these areas of silence that were science, that were, you know, that are, you know, to the, to the average person and even to the PhD, to the average PhD, very siloed. You know, they exist in these silos, right? And then medical doctors are very much technicians these days. You know, they're trained to operate by script and, and alleviate the symptomology of these conditions. But, you know, most of them don't think like scientists, and there are obviously are exceptions to that. But I think, you know, that my position as a journalist and, and as essentially an outsider gave me a very, you know, powerful advantage. And, you know, I don't, I'm not forcing anybody to listen to me. You know, if, if somebody feels compelled to only listen to people that have MDs or PhDs after their names, well, that's fine. You know, but that's not the person that I'm trying to reach. So.

Wow, that was such a mature response. I get so to two groups, like when I lecture at the American Academy of Anti Aging Medicine, like, I'm on stage in front of 3,000 doctors. And like, guys, just to be clear, I'm an unlicensed biohacker. I'm not a doctor. You guys know stuff I don't know. But it means that I can say things that are true that would get your license taken away if you said them. And then about a half the room is like, this guy's a jerk. And the other half is like, oh, this is interesting, right? So it creates this dichotomy. And then online, usually that's just a cheap shot from bullies. And I finally found, like, the ultimate response to that. And I just say, your mom, because if we're going to do seventh grade bullying, like, I'm just going to go right there. And I truly like. If you look on my comments on Instagram, you know, if someone's like, you look old and you're not a scientist, I'm like, that's not what your mom said. And then the, the issue was solved. Because if we're going to be adults asking adult questions, if someone says, well, you don't have any scientific background, like, what makes you think this is real? Then okay, we have a conversation. But it turns out most of the time those are people who don't like cognitive dissonance. And I think with your documentary, you're telling a story, right, that really connects with people, so that way they can be curious instead of experiencing that cognitive dissonance. And end of the day, you don't need a license to science because the scientific method is something we all learn in about sixth grade. You know, you make an observation form a hypothesis and test it. You know, a journalist background is great for that. So I, I, I appreciate that you've just stuck, stuck with your guns. And there are people who will say both of us are unqualified to ask questions. I would just ask them what makes them qualified to say that. And it turns out they don't have a degree in telling people they can't talk either. So it just becomes like an E chamber. So I'm glad that, that we both have a way to respond to that, because if the questions we're asking were easy, they'd be answered.

Yeah, well, they're, they're wrong. I mean, science is a method. It's, nobody owns science.

I thought the government owned Science.

No, I mean, as much as they, they, you know, love to proclaim or suggest that they do.

Right, right.

No, I mean, and I find that, you know, many PhDs, you know, again, there are exceptions to this, but most are terrible science communicators.

Yeah.

And, you know, we do need to be thinking outside of the box with a condition like Alzheimer's disease because, you know, thinking inside of the box has just, you know, continued to fail time and time again. I mean, Alzheimer's drug trials, for example, have a 99.6% fail rate. And there's widespread fraud even in science. I mean, with regard to Alzheimer's disease, we saw two years ago, you know, news broke that, you know, for one, journalists, like, they cover issues, right? Like, we live in a world where health and nutrition, it's so polarized, as with everything else today, seemingly in the modern world. But, you know, as a journalist, you're taught you, you are trained to investigate. You know, that is what the, what you're trained to do. And in fact, being a journalist gives you, I think, an advantage because, you know, PhDs are obviously essential, right. To scientific inquiry. But to become a PhD, you have to focus on these really small aspects of, of science, you know, whatever it is that you happen to be investigating. You know, molecular pathways, for example. Like some PhDs, they earn their PhD by investigating and publishing on really minute mechanistic pathways that are, I would say, you know, often fairly useless to the general population, provide very little in the way of actionable steps that one might take. And so we rely on their research. Right. But in terms of actually providing a public health good today, with today's public health problems, Right. I think that they're fairly limited. You know, oftentimes they. What I find is that they're very prone to losing the sight of the forest for the trees. And I didn't come at this with any sort of preconceived notions. And, you know, as a storyteller and as an artist, I felt very empowered actually to be able to connect the dots between all these areas of silence that were science, that were, you know, that are, you know, to the, to the average person and even to the PhD, to the average PhD, very siloed, you know, they exist in these silos, right. And then medical doctors are very much technicians these days. You know, they're trained to operate by script and alleviate the symptomology of these conditions. But, you know, most of them don't think like scientists, and there are obviously are exceptions to that, but I think, you Know that my position as a journalist and as essentially an outsider gave me a very powerful advantage. And, you know, I don't. I'm not forcing anybody to listen to me. You know, if somebody feels compelled to only listen to people that have MDs or PhDs after their names, well, that's fine, you know, but that's not the person that I'm trying to reach. So.

Wow, that was such a mature response. I get so to two groups, like when I lecture at the American Academy of Anti Aging Medicine, like, I'm on stage in front of 3,000 doctors. And like, guys, just to be clear, I'm an unlicensed biohacker. I'm not a doctor. You guys know stuff I don't know. But it means that I can say things that are true that would get your license taken away if you said them. And then about a half the room is like, this guy's a jerk. And the other half is like, oh, this is interesting, right? So it creates this dichotomy. And then online, usually that's just a cheap shot from bullies. And I finally found, like, the ultimate response to that. And I just say, your mom, because if we're going to do seventh grade bullying, like, I'm just going to go right there. And I truly like. If you look on my comments on Instagram, you know, if someone's like, you look old and you're not a scientist, I'm like, that's not what your mom said. And then the issue was solved. Because if we're going to be adults asking adult questions, if someone says, well, you don't have any scientific background, like, what makes you think this is real? Then, okay, we have a conversation. But it turns out most of the time those are people who don't like cognitive dissonance. And I think with your documentary, you're telling a story, right, that really connects with people, so that way they can be curious instead of experiencing that cognitive dissonance. And end of the day, you don't need a license to science because the scientific method is something we all learn in about sixth grade. You know, you make an observation, form a hypothesis and test it. You know, a journalist background is great for that. So I, I appreciate that you've just stuck. Stuck with your guns. And there are people who will say, both of us are unqualified to ask questions. I would just ask them what makes them qualified to say that. And it turns out they don't have a degree in telling people they can't talk either. So it just becomes like an Echo chamber. So I'm glad that, that we both have a way to respond to that, because if the questions we're asking were easy, they'd be answered.

Yeah, well, they're, they're wrong. I mean, science is a method. It's. Nobody owns science.

I thought the government owned science.

No, I mean, as much as they, they, you know, love to proclaim or suggest that they do.

Right, right.

No, I mean, and I find that, you know, many PhDs, you know, again, there are exceptions to this, but most are terrible science communicators. Yeah. And, you know, we do need to be thinking outside of the box with a condition like Alzheimer's disease because, you know, thinking inside of the box has just, you know, continued to fail time and time again. I mean, Alzheimer's drug trials, for example, have a 99.6% fail rate. And there's widespread fraud even in science. I mean, with regard to Alzheimer's disease. We saw two years ago, you know, news broke that one of these seminal studies that seemed to continue to perpetuate this idea that amyloid beta, the plaque that aggregates and clumps, you know, in the brains of people with Alzheimer's disease, you know, one of the seminal papers that seemed to make that link and continue to, you know, funnel billions and billions of dollars down this funding pipeline for drug discovery, was completely fraudulent. And, and Alzheimer's disease, again, it's a, it's a condition that begins in the brain decades before the first symptom. And, you know, for somebody suffering with the condition, there are no tools to effectively treat the condition. So we do need to be thinking outside of the box. And I'm not saying that, you know, again, there's a magical diet or, or, or, you know, supplement or blueberry that's going to solve all of our problems and, and, and, you know, put an end to this condition once and for all. We're not there yet, but, but I'm very happy that, that we have, you know, forward thinkers in the field and out of the field to help broaden this conversation because, you know, to, to just like, have a, continue to have a bias for pharma. I just think it's, it doesn't serve the patients at the end of the day. I saw this with my mom and, and yeah, we, we, we do need to be thinking about it differently.

It's funny you said earlier, well, there, there isn't really any one cause. You don't think there's one cause. And that makes so much sense if you think about it the way Pharmaceutical companies do like, well, we're trying to figure out what causes bread. So we baked some yeast, we baked some water, we baked some salt, we bake some flour. Therefore there is no bread. Like, oh, you mean you need a recipe to make bread? Well, there's also a recipe for dementia. And in fact, there's probably a hundred thousand recipes for bread of all of its different types, and there's probably a hundred thousand recipes for dementia. And to think we're going to undo all of that with one super drug. The basis assumption that there must be one cause for something, most of the time it's just an untested assumption. And if you spend a trillion dollars in research looking for a single cause without any evidence that there is a single cause in the first place, maybe you're doing science wrong.

Yeah, I mean, if you were to, if you ask, you know, most, I think, medical professionals, what causes Alzheimer's disease, they'll typically say there is one cause and that causes amyloid beta and the misfolding of tau protein. That's, that's the cause. The same way that if you ask, you know, a cardiologist today, what causes atherosclerosis? It's LDL cholesterol. But what's causing the aggregation of LDL cholesterol in our arteries? What's causing the, the aggregation of amyloid beta, you know, around our, in the, in the space around our neurons? That's the question that, that we need to be asking because that gives us a window of opportunity to intervene. Right. I mean, once you've been diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease, you are essentially in late stage Alzheimer's disease. I mean, you know, even at the very beginning, this is a condition that's been simmering in the brain for years prior to the onset of symptoms.

It's funny, I've interviewed a few firefighters to ask what causes fire, and they're all convinced that smoke causes it. That's where we are with Alzheimer's right now. They're looking at things that are outputs of Alzheimer's and assuming they're the cause without any clear evidence that they are the cause.

Yeah, I mean, you might, as a, as a non fireman might be inclined to think that firemen cause fires. Right. Because they're always there at the scene of the, at the scene of the fire.

It's a conspiracy, isn't it?

Must be. It's a, it's a, it's a big problem. And, you know, I think from a, from a dietary standpoint, I mean, you know, obesity, we know is a risk factor. We know that type 2 diabetes is a risk factor. We know that hypertension is a risk factor. We know that diet and lifestyle can, you know, profoundly reduce our risk for those conditions. You know, those. Like, obesity is a choice. There are genetic influences, certainly, and there are socioeconomic influences and the like. But obesity is something that, you know, you don't. You don't have to be obese. You know, just because your parents were obese doesn't mean that you have to be obese.

Hold on a second here. Are you telling that. Tell me that obesity is not a genetic condition.

It's not primarily a genetic condition. No.

Don't tell any of the fat activists that, okay? You might trigger them.

Yeah, I mean, it's a. We live in a time where I think victim mindset is certainly encouraged, if not applauded. And. And it's a problem. And we're now seeing that the brain is connected to the body. It's intricately connected to the body. And studies show that as your waistline expands, you know, there seems to be a correlation between total brain volume, that a larger waist circumference seems to be correlated with, you know, lower brain volume.

It's funny because the. There's another similar data point that goes the opposite direction. So the bigger your waist, the lower the brain volume. The bigger your booty. Assuming it's muscle, the greater your brain volume and the more neurons you have. So it turns out muscle mass is a major thing that's affecting our brain positively, and fat mass is affecting it negatively.

So you're saying thick thighs save lives?

I saw it on the Internet. It must be true. There was actually a study about it. Now, brain atrophy is a thing, and it's something I was really worried about because my. Many years ago, I went and I got a brain scan from Daniel Aman after his first book because I was failing out of business school, and I was. I was really worried about my brain, and I knew it wasn't working right, and. And that fear was there. And I remember the psychiatrist, when he. He saw his go to a tech bro wants Adderall. Like, I know this. This thing. And he saw my brain scan when it came back, and he just said, inside your brain is total chaos. You have the best camouflage I've ever seen. I don't know how you're standing here in front of me, and I was like, finally, like, it's not me just not trying. It's something going on in my brain. And I'm hoping that when people See your documentary that they understand this is a physiological thing. It's not an effort or a desire or a willpower or a moral judgment like it, it's a hardware thing that we can, we can affect by anything that affects our hardware. Even if it's a few squats, right?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when you realize that the data seem, tends to suggest that a certain way of eating, a certain way of living can reduce your risk for Alzheimer's disease, a disease for which there is no cure, then the question is, what are you going to do about it? What are you going to do about that? You know, that revelation that you can live and eat in a certain way that reduces your risk for this terrible condition, then the ball is really in your court. And that's the empowering message that I hope to get across with my work ultimately, but particularly, you know, with this documentary. When people really see what, what having dementia is like and how, how hopeless a situation it can be, to me, it's, it's a really, I think, powerful call to action to do things a little bit differently. You know, we live in a world where, you know, we have certain genetic risk factors, but most of those risk factors are not. They're essentially, they're, they're, they're that, they're, they're, they put you at increased risk, but they're not deterministic in the sense that, you know, for the vast majority of people who will develop dementia, Alzheimer's disease, that's not something that was written in your genome as destiny. You know, it's something that plays out over many, many years of exposure to the standard American diet and lifestyle. You know, chronic consumption of ultra processed foods, for example, chronic sedentary lifestyle, chronic exposure to excessive air pollution. I mean, these are all factors that, that fall within our control. And I think that that's so crucially empowering. You know, a lot of people, when they develop a condition like Alzheimer's disease, Lewy Body dementia, Parkinson's disease, they show up to their neurologist, and once they receive that diagnosis, the next question typically is, why me? And I'm not victim blaming here or patient blaming. That's certainly not what I'm doing. But if we have this insight that provides a roadmap for how to live in a way that can reduce risk, then the question, you know, the, the obvious question is, why aren't you, you know, following these suggestions, particularly if the suggestions are safe? You know, we know that ultra processed foods, you know, every 10% increment in ultra processed food Consumption increases risk for dementia by 25%, increases risk for early mortality by 14%. Right. I mean these are like big increases in relative risk. And I get it. We live, you know, amidst a food supply that is by and large ultra processed. 75% of the items in your average supermarket today are ultra processed foods, which are making a lot of people a lot of money. But they are negatively, I mean they, they're, they're, they pose a substantial threat to the brain and the body. And so, you know, these are just the questions that I think are really important for people to ask and, and talk about with their, with their family members and loved ones.

If you had to choose between eating 25% ultra processed food every day for a month or smoking one cigarette a day for a month, which would you choose?

H. Well I wouldn't smoke cuz smoking is a risk factor. Although I am a fan of the nootropic effects of nicotine, I will say that.

Me too. Oh, I just sprayed some. Yeah, well you have to, you have to pick here. So you'd pick the food?

I would pick the food, yeah.

Really?

Well, because I mean, 25, you know, 25 ultra processed foods, your average American today is consuming 60 ultra processed foods. So that's a big, so that is a big improvement. Actually, you know, if my diet was 25, composed of ultra processed foods, that would be a massive improvement over what they, what the average American is consuming in England. In the UK they're doing a little bit better, about 50% ultra processed foods by calories. But yeah, I would not, I would not recommend smoking also, you know, smoking is highly addictive and ultra processed foods are just as addictive as cigarette, as cigarettes. But, but you know, even, even within the, the. I think there needs to be a little bit of nuance brought to the conversation about ultra processed foods because some ultra processed foods actually are not bad, are not that bad. You know, I think as a general, as a general screening tool, we want to avoid ultra processed foods to the best of our ability. But, but you know, like protein powder might be considered by some an ultra processed food.

Yeah, I'm happy you said that because you can demonize the processing of food, but I'm pretty sure that we take the shell off the walnut and we cook our food and we chop it and we blend it and we preserve it and we add herbs and all of these are processing, they're just traditional processing techniques. And then ultra processing, well, you could actually remove something bad from a food via ultra processing. And you mentioned air Filters. And you haven't mentioned it, but obviously water filters. So if you clean up your air, you clean up your water, but there isn't such a thing as a food filter. And food processing is, is a food filter. We ferment food to reduce plant toxins. Right. We. We do different things to it. So some processing is bad and some processing is good. It becomes highly nuanced. But as a general rule, if it's been through a factory, it has a bunch of ingredients, it's probably not good for you. But I'd rather eat. This will pains me to say it, but I'd rather eat soy protein powder than a whole bunch of whole soybeans because there's less toxins in the powder, even though they're both toxic, right?

Yeah.

Well, he might not even say soy is toxic, but I would just disagree with you if that was your position.

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't. Look, I don't eat much soy, if, if any. I do enjoy the occasional tamari sauce with my.

Yeah, that, that's not a. That's not a big enough dose to matter. And it's fermented. Right.

Well, what do you think about natto? I enjoy natto. I think natto is a.

You enjoy natto? Are you a masochist?

Well, from a, from a health stand, I do enjoy with a little tamari sauce, but from a health standpoint, I mean, natto is like a pretty amazing food. Do you not agree?

Yeah. So natto, if you're listening, you've never had it. It's a traditional Japanese dish. And I'm a huge fan of sushi. We've gone out for sushi together. And natto, it's like eating almond flavored snot. Maybe it has the worst consistency, like boiled okra, but more crystallized. I don't know. And so I take natto kinase, which is an extract of natto that contains the health benefits of it. But if you like the taste of natto, you should totally eat it. And that level of fermentation takes out the oxalates and even a lot of the estrogenic effects of soy. So it's not like you can't have some that's processed the right way. It's just most of it's not.

I mean, natto to me is a. Yeah, you're right. The fermentation. Fermented soy and tamari is fermented as well. Fermented soy, I think is actually not. I wouldn't call it a, A bad food. I I think that there are potentially some health benefits to be derived. And natto is a food that has, it's the highest, it's got the highest concentration of vitamin K2 of any food. It's a rich source of nattokinase, which you mentioned, which is being studied for its, its anti aging effects. And also spermidine, which, you know, I've got to brush up on, on, you know, the research on spermidine. But spermidine also has some really interesting health benefits associated with it as well.

It's a notable longevity compound. It's, it's a, a postbiotic that's formed in your gut or in some foods and it's a fasting memetic and it's something that I take as part of my longevity stack for brain function as well. Like it, it's, it's good for you. So I would just say with, with soy though, as a caution if you're someone with allergies. Allergies are correlated with Alzheimer's and dementia because you get inflammation in the brain from an allergic response. And soy, fermented soy anyway, is one of the highest sources of histamine in the diet. And so you might want to steer clear of fermented soy and fermented fish sauce if you have allergies and you're worried about dementia. But if you eat them and you have no tiredness afterwards, no runny nose, no coughing or hives or any of that, you're probably not that sensitive and it's probably fine. And most people aren't going to know these nuances.

Yeah, I mean, the histamine thing, there's, there are certainly people who are sensitive to it, but I've never been sensitive. And allegedly avocados are really high in histamine. And I think avocados are one of the perfect brain foods.

They're only high in histamine if they have black spots. So just overripe is when they're dangerous. But properly ripened avocados aren't particularly high risk. And it's, it's funny because, you know, you can go down all these rat holes and if you eat something, whether it's ultra processed or not, if you have cravings or you're really tired or agitated in the next two hours afterwards, it's a pretty good sign that something didn't work. And that that choice probably moved you more in the direction of metabolic dysfunction and Alzheimer's and everything else than if you ate food that kept your energy stable. Right. So end of the day, you know, we can talk about mechanisms and theories and maybe provide good guidelines. But how do you feel? Do you have cravings and are you tired or do you have brain fog? And if those don't happen, then have more natto and if you can stomach it.

Yeah, it's not, it's not a regular feature in my diet, but it's, it's something that when I, you know, whenever I see it and if I could find organic. Because I think when buying anything soy related, good God. Yeah, you certainly want to opt for organic, you know, to reduce your exposure to, you know, petroleum based pesticides if nothing else. But, but yeah, I, I do feel like it's a, it's a food that has like some pretty significant health benefits, assuming you're not sensitive to histamine.

Let's go back to your smoking habit, Max, the one you don't have. So I've never smoked. I don't think breathing, burning stuff is good for you. But when I started studying mitochondria in the brain, well, people who smoke, they get cardiovascular disease and they get cancer, but they don't get Alzheimer's and Parkinson's very often at all. In fact, there's a substantial protective effect from smoking, which is not something I would ever recommend. And I had, I call him Dr. Nicotine from Vanderbilt University on the show a while ago. And he said he published his first study in 1986 showing that pharmaceutical nicotine, apart from smoking, dramatically reduced chances of and symptoms of Alzheimer's disease. And that wasn't the only paper he's been publishing for 30 years. And I, that was one of the things that inspired me in my longevity book to say, look, if you're over age 40, you know, 1 to 5 milligrams of pharmaceutical nicotine as a cognitive enhancer, as an exercise memetic, something that makes your body get the compounds of exercise. And as a nootropic, it's probably pro longevity and it's probably not harmful. Right. You don't want to do exceptionally high doses of, of nicotine like that. But microdosing it is something that I've recommended for people with Alzheimer's. Likewise MCT Oil. There is a phase 2 clinical trial I could not talk about when I was at Bulletproof. And I don't know if you've heard, I've got nothing to do with the company. I don't own any of it. It's been bought by VCs and stuff. So I can say this MCT oil in phase 2 clinical trials prevents and or reverses Alzheimer's, especially early stage Alzheimer's via metabolic effects. So I'm like, there's these two things that if you're starting to get signs of dementia, those might be worth considering, but you'll never hear about them from big pharma. Are there any other hacks like that that like, okay, you just felt the first effects of dementia. You put your car keys in the fridge, you went to the doctor and they said you've got some kind of, some kind of thing just starting. What would you do first to get your brain back?

Yeah, well, the, the, the nicotine thing is super interesting. I mean, I've been. That's a rabbit hole that I've been, you know, going down recently, you know, because of one. I noticed some pretty profound cognitive benefits for my, for myself. And I just want to be clear. I'm not suggesting that people go out.

And try it because don't try nicotine or don't try smoking.

Well, definitely don't. Don't try smoking. And nicotine, I think you've got to know your. If you have an addictive personality, you know, it's not something that I would recommend because it's highly addictive. And, you know, so I'm not, I'm just, you know, not suggesting that people go and try it. But from a research standpoint, it, you know, we know that it activates these nicotinic acetylcholine receptors in the brain. There's lots of evidence on its cognitive boosting effects. And there was a paper, actually that I tweeted recently from 2015 that has a really great synthesis of the research on how it might potentially help prevent potentially and to alleviate symptoms in Parkinson's disease.

Yes.

It was published in Frontiers in Aging Neuroscience 2015. Beneficial effects of Nicotine Cotinine and its metabolites as potential agents for Parkinson's Disease. And, you know, I just thought that that was super, super interesting because Parkinson's disease is like this big question mark, like, where we have very little insight with regard to that condition. But it does seem to be the case that smokers, you know, have. There's an inverse relationship in terms of risk profile, which is so crazy to consider because smoking just destroys your body in so many different ways. But they seem to be protected against Parkinson's disease.

I feel like we, we throw the baby out with the bathwater. Like ultra processed foods, generally they're bad for you, but processed protein powder that removes some bad things. It's ultra processed, but it's not bad for you. So categorically speaking, tobacco is not good for you. It doesn't mean that a component of tobacco in the right dose at the right time couldn't have profound effects. And I may be a little bit more aggressive than you in that. Would I recommend low dose nicotine for cognitive enhancement? Yeah, I would. Don't vape. It's worse for you than smoking. Don't smoke, don't chew. It's bad for you. But if you're doing 1 to 5 milligrams, that's between 5 and 25% of what's in a single cigarette. And you don't have a bunch of artificial sweeteners and things like that in it and you're willing to stick to a dosing regimen. I, I think that the preponderance of evidence is that it's probably good for you. The risk. Nicotine is addictive. Without all the crap that tobacco companies put in cigarettes. Nicotine by itself has a three day biological washout period, same as caffeine. After that. It's all physiological or psycho.

Sorry.

It's all psychological addiction where, you know, you're like, oh, I just kind of reach for it because I like it.

Yeah.

And what I found is I use 1 milligram for five years, 1 milligram a day. I'm starting back in about 2015. And then I said, you know, I'm just going to do a little bit more than that because I like it. And I use it kind of on a as, as desired basis. And if I find that I'm using it too much, then I go off of it for three months. And the fact you can go off of it for three months and then go back on it, you say, well, it's because you can't give up an addiction. You can stop exercising for three months and decide to exercise again. You feel better when you do it, and it's got physiological benefits. I just do my best to not have an emotional judgment about something. I want to look at the numbers, look at the science. And I know that I couldn't get my grandmother to do it because, you know, care providers aren't trained in this. But if she could have had a nicotine patch for the last five years of her life, doing 5 or 10 milligrams a day, it probably would have improved her quality of life. Right. And, and if you're already on that path, it seems like it's a good idea. But, you know, your mileage may vary. It's all we can say right now.

Yeah, I mean, I, I Definitely am optimistic and, and hopeful that it, it plays some role in, in protecting the brain. But I think we, you know, to say with certainty, we, we, we definitely need a lot more research. But for me, cognitively, I enjoy it, you know, as a, as a, it's a stimulant and it, I feel like it, you know, it's a, helps dial in my focus and it's, I think importantly compared to caffeine, it has a much shorter half life. So the half life of caffeine is about 8 to 10 hours. The half life of nicotine is like 2 hours. Although its metabolites stay in your, in your system for, well, you know, for way longer than that. But the metabolites don't seem to have any negative impact. Like cotinine stays in your system for like 16 hours. I think that the half life is in the range of 16 hours or so. And actually studies have shown, animal studies have shown that it can help with fear extinction, which might play a role in, you know, helping fight ptsd, for example. And I could take nicotine in the afternoon and it doesn't affect my sleep because of the really short half life, you know, relative to caffeine. So I think it's a, I think it's a fantastic tool. But I'm not, you know, recommending that people go out and do it. But you know, but to have it in your toolkit, I think it's a, it's a, it is a, an incredible win. Especially now you have on the market all of these non tobacco sources of it.

Exactly.

Clean products and the like.

You know, I'm a fan of, of Lucy Gum because it was the, the first, as far as I know, only brand that didn't have nasty sweeteners and at least some other flavors because I, I don't want to take aspartame or NutraSweet because that's not good for your brain. Do we know anything about artificial sweeteners and Alzheimer's?

There was a study published in 2017 that linked artificial sweetener consumption to artificially sweetened beverages to increased risk of dementia by about 30%. But I think that there's, you know, correlation doesn't equal causation. And so I would be hesitant to, you know, with certainty say that we know that artificial sweeteners can increase dementia risk.

So you're not a fan of the Blue Zones diet, apparently, because correlation doesn't equal causation.

Well, that for sure I'm not, because I think, you know, that that's been totally those Diets have been completely mischaracterized and agree. But I, I typically avoid artificial sweeteners. I just think, you know, I, I abide by what is called the precautionary principle. You know, I just would much rather trust, you know, put my trust in foods that, and then, and supplements that are food derived that have been around longer than these kinds of synthetic compounds. I just think, you know, it's, that's more of a value of values decision that I've made. But I don't know if we can say with certainty that there's a risk. Although it depends who you ask. I had the, you know, the authors of a new book wrote the relative of the daughter of Martha Claire Morris, who pioneered the mind diet. I've had her on my podcast recently and they, you know, have suggested that artificial sweeteners are worth avoiding from a brain health standpoint. But I haven't really seen any, seen any convincing evidence that it's something to be afraid of from the standpoint of dementia.

I've definitely noticed the effects on my clarity. I remember in my, that must have been 23 and I was just finishing up on my degree and I was really on this like health kick. I'm like, I'm just gonna lose this weight. So I went and I got like a, a 32 ounce Diet Coke and I, and I drank it. It was a hot day. I'm sitting there trying to pay attention in class and I'm like, something trashed my brain. Like I cannot think. And I just went back like, wow, I'm chewing, you know, 20 pieces of, of aspartame gum a day and I'm doing these Diet Cokes and that stuff is addictive. But when I dug in on the science until recently, the number one complaint to the FDA about adverse effects was from NutraSweet or Aspartame. And what happens is it along with MSG in brains that are susceptible to this, and they're probably more likely the brains that are susceptible to dementia. These two compounds cause uncontrolled firing of neurons because they activate in the synaptic cleft. And so by avoiding those two things, I dramatically increased my cognitive function and reduced food cravings. And it made a lot easier to lose weight. And then there's studies on microbiome. So like you, I'm like, pretty sure there's evidence that these are not good for us. And if you can do anything to move your needle towards the direction of health, it will also reduce the likelihood of dementia. Doesn't mean it'll protect you from it. You're just playing an odds game there. So I, I like to think those are a poor decision. But there are some people get very triggered by that. It's only about the calories you eat. And that's been debunked so many different ways that I, I just kind of almost at this point roll my eyes. It's not just about calories.

Oh, it's certain. I mean, it's not just about calories at all. And, and again, in full disclosure, I, I personally avoid artificial sweeteners to the best of my ability. But, you know, at the population level, when you see studies where, for example, artificially sweetened beverages are, you know, associated with a higher risk of dementia, there's always like, you know, what's called confounding or residual confounders and reverse causation. Like, people with type 2 diabetes are more inclined to drink beverages with artificial sweeteners. And we know that having type 2 diabetes increases your risk for developing dementia by, you know, at least two to four fold. And so, you know, those are always kinds of the kinds of questions that you need to, that you need to ask. And I would love to have more research to definitively, you know, causally link artificial sweeteners to dementia, but, you know, I haven't seen any. But nonetheless, I think, you know, with what we know about their impact on the gut microbiome and, you know, the oral microbiome, which we have yet to even begin to explore, which we know plays a role in systemic health, my, sort of, my take is that they're likely, you're, you're, you're obviously better off drinking water and, and likely best off avoiding artificial sweeteners. But that's, you know, primarily influenced by my, just my value, the, the values that I have about, you know, who I'm more likely to trust with regard to the foods that I should be eating every day.

One of the things I've been really interested in over the last four or five years, as I've been talking about danger, coffee isn't actually coffee, which we could talk about with Alzheimer's, but it's electrolytes and cell hydration, particularly in the brain for cognitive function. Are you aware of any studies on dehydration or hydration and Alzheimer's or Parkinson's or dementia?

I'm not. But if you have any, you know, any insight to share, I would love that. I mean, I do know that even mild dehydration can impair cognitive function. So, I mean, hydration is super important. But you know, I'm not aware of any connection to dementia.

I'm not aware of any specific studies. But we do know that having enough hydration in the cells in your brain and it's different, drinking water doesn't create hydration. It's getting water into cells that creates hydration. And we know that, that, that will increase brain volume because you have more water in your brain. And there's an intriguing study, I want to say it was either in mice or rats of a compound that drives cell hydration called Tre. It's a, an unusual structure of sugar and one that I've used for years in various things. Andrealose in mice had really profound neuroprotective effects, but they haven't been replicated in humans. So there's probably something to do with hydration and almost certainly something to do with adequate minerals, including trace minerals, things like zinc, potassium, magnesium, and having good functioning cells which are more immune to dementia. But we don't have direct studies that I'm aware of.

Yeah, I mean hydration is important and minerals are super important. I'm actually a big fan of danger coffee. I think it's, it tastes amazing and it feels quenching in a way that, you know, regular coffee doesn't. Although regular coffee is still great. And you know, assuming it's like mold free and the like, you know, we see that people who drink more coffee seem to, there's a inverse correlation with coffee consumption at risk for dementia, Parkinson's disease, multiple sclerosis, cardiovascular disease. It's like an amazing, an amazing elixir of life, it seems, it kind of.

Makes me laugh because you could say humans are drawn towards things that are bad for us. Right. But historically we didn't have that many things that were bad for us and we weren't drawn to them. Maybe like we knew it, but humans have been using tobacco for a very long time, even though we know it's bad for us and at least in some ways, and we've been using caffeine forever. Like it, it's, it's literally between tea and cacao and coffee. Those are, I would just say at this point, traditional foods that do, and they do change brain function and they seem to, at least in the, the case of coffee and chocolate, they seem to be good for you. And tobacco is very mixed where you feel good from it, but you get the, the long term effects. And now I think the more modern ways remove all the negative stuff. But I just, I kind of wonder why we've come to believe that things that are good for us are bad for us. Even things like, you know, eating a steak, the dieter's plate. When you and I were not born yet in 1950, it was real straightforward. It was a piece of steak and two scoops of cottage cheese and a piece of tomato. It was a low carb, high fat, high protein meal. And people would do that and then they would lose weight and like, this doesn't seem that hard. But now we believe all that's bad for us. Why do you think it's so backwards?

Yeah, I don't know. You know, and the thing about tobacco is that it probably was something that was primarily used ceremonially, you know, for, for much of our time on this planet. It wasn't, it likely wasn't something that people were just like, you know, people were just like smoking cigarette after cigarette the way that they are today because of the ubiquity of, of cigarettes, you know, thanks to, thanks to big tobacco. But yeah, I mean, tobacco, I think initially was, was used ceremonially and it still continues to be used for that purpose. But, you know, there are just so many competing voices and special interest groups and it's, it's a real mess today. I mean, we see that some of our most trusted organizations, for example, the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, you know, not only do they take gifts from the Ultra Processed food company, but they actually have stock in many of these companies. You know, our mutual friend Anahat o' Connor has done a lot of really important investigative journalism for the Washington Post recently, looking at the, the, the strange bedfellows that Big food and, you know, some of our most trusted and credentialed health experts make, you know, when there's, that, when, when there are dollars at play. We saw recently that, you know, the American Beverage association was secretly funding certain registered dietitians and even medical doctors on social media, you know, in a way that was very poorly disclosed to the degree that the FTC actually had to send warning letters to the, to the health experts that, you know, that, that were taking paychecks from the American Beverage association to promote aspartame. Now, I don't have a dog in that fight. I'm not, you know, the research on aspartame, I get it, it's equivocal. But nonetheless, if you're going to promote aspartame to your millions of followers, they deserve to know where you're, you know, who's paying you to make those recommendations. And, and we see this time and time again. How big food is, you know, really the, you know, underlies a lot of the messaging that you see now on social media about all foods fitting. You know, all foods fit, food is food. There's no such thing as a good or bad food. And I get that that message is therapeutic for a certain population, people who have struggled with their relationship to food, for example, but for the general population, a population that is now overwhelmingly overweight to the tune of one in two Americans being not just overweight, but obese, you know, do all foods really fit?

I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to lie to make a certain population feel better. It's wrong. And I'm just willing to say that. And if someone has emotional issues or orthorexia or anorexia or any of the other eating disorders, it's a mental illness and we can treat it, but you don't treat it by telling them that what they're doing is okay and eating a lot of junk food isn't good. And feeling shame about eating junk food when you choose to do it isn't okay either. But pretending that all foods fit when some foods clearly cause obesity way more than others, and you just ignore that, to sweep it under the rug, to save someone's feelings, I won't be a party to that. And some people will get really mad that I said that. But I have empathy and compassion because I've, I've been obese and I've eaten foods that I heard because of this marketing that I thought were good for me that weren't. And I've also had emotional eating issues. Fasting in a cave for four days made that really apparent for me. I would eat when I was lonely, right? And so I just want the truth. And if the truth hurts, then I need to do work on my hurt versus do work on the truth to make the truth more palatable to me. And that's at the core. That's what's going to help us beat all the diseases of aging, including dementia, because we've got to look at facts. And so, yeah, I, I worry about the all foods fit thing quite a lot. And I, I can't imagine telling that to my kids.

Yeah, it's a, it's a rigged game. I mean, that's, that's the issue. And it's gaslighting, you know, this idea that all foods fit. What it does, it deflects blame from the manufacturers of these ultra processed foods and it points the finger at the consumer and it says, you know, you don't have you clearly don't have enough willpower to moderate your consumption of these chips and our cream and the sugar sweetened beverages that we're putting out. The, the ball is in the, you know, it's, it's up to you to moderate your consumption of these foods that you know aren't designed to be hyper palatable and the most calorie dense foods that, that human beings have ever had access to 24 hours a day. And that's simply BS. It's Gaslight. It's gaslighting. It's, you know, our constant, it's our constant proximity to these foods that is what is really driving the, the epidemic of obesity and associated chronic conditions.

I love it that you called out registered dietitians. There's I, I've seen the rise of functional dietitians recently, which I just applaud so much. The registered dietitian lobby. These are the people who make school food that makes our kids have add and they're the people who make hospital food that I wouldn't feed to someone I didn't like in the hospital.

Troll.

Right. And it's based on some very strongly held beliefs that are not backed by science. And every now and then you'll see one of them coming out as a troll. I'm a registered dietitian. I'm like, congratulations, thank you for recommending diet soda and ho hos to my kids. But that doesn't give you standing. If we're going to have a scientific discussion, we're going to talk about individual ingredients, individual foods and science. And at that point you realize counting calories and saying all foods fit is just a way to sell peasant food to people as if it's healthy and to charge more for it. And I'm just not okay with that. I would like us to just know which foods are good. So that's the food that we all demand and that's then the only food that the big companies can sell. And I think when we do that, your mission to solve dementia is going to be a lot easier versus pretending something is true. That's not true. And the way you go about this in your documentary of just telling a story, making it real and visceral and felt it's, it's an important part of what journalism does. And I'm, I'm really grateful that you, you put all this time and energy and love into this project and like, like my film on toxic mold. Right. It's something that people might not know that you'd want to pay attention to, but I Think you just make it worth watching because it's. It's. It's entertaining. Not in a, you know, superhero entertaining, but entertaining. Like, wow. It's a story that it grabs people. So I just want to say thanks for doing the hard work of translating not just science into advice, but a story that people can connect to so they can be curious about the science. And that, in and of itself is a big act of service, Max. And thank you.

Thanks so much, Dave. Yeah, I mean, I've put my entire heart and soul into this project, and again, it's a. It's been a labor of love, and I've been working on it for 10 years, and I'm so excited that it's finally out and that people can watch it@littleemptyboxes.com and. Yeah, and I'm just so over the moon that my mom, who suffered so immensely at the hands of this awful condition that her story is now going to live on in the hearts and minds of anybody who chooses to watch it. And in watching, you're going to learn about her, you're going to learn about the condition, but you're also going to walk away with some really actionable steps to institute in your own life and to share with friends and loved ones that I just think is, you know, I mean, that's priceless. It is.

Got a final question for you. If you could have the energy and health you have now or better, how long would you want to live?

Oh, that's a good question. I don't know if I'm going to say that I want to live forever, but I think, you know, I think I feel like I'm just getting started and I'm. I'm pushing. You know, I'm about to be 42, so, you know, I feel like if I could at least live with robust health and stay jacked and be a centenarian, I mean, that would be. That would be pretty epic, you know, to at least make it to 100. My mom passed away at 66, and so I don't really have a model for what longevity looks like. And that's really sad. And I know a lot of people are. Are, you know, in similar shoes. So for me, if I could just, you know, make it. Make it, you know, beggars can't be choosers. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna say 100, and I'm gonna leave it at that.

Who's your oldest friend?

My oldest friend, man. I don't want to call him out, but I kind of feel like Mark Sisson is. Is maybe one of my.

I don't know how old Mark is. He's definitely a generation before you or me.

He's in his 70s. I'm trying to think if there's anybody.

Yeah, he's. He's made a lot of change in the world. Full.

He really has. Yeah.

I mean, I'm a little bit upset at him, though.

Why?

Well, he has his new toe shoe brand and he and I are both fans of Toshis, but they don't make them in size 16. And I've got big feet, so I can't wear Mark Sisson's new shoes. Mark brother can help me out. Man, that's hilarious.

I wonder if he's going to. If he's going to feel flattered or. Or like I threw him under the bus by mentioning him.

You know, one of the things that happens with aging is people feel like they're losing mental stability or mental autonomy or bodily autonomy. Like it's a very deep fear that all humans have. And I'm working really hard to just say, look, being an elder is a sacred obligation. And if you can just have the brain function and the energy and a well enough working body to say, well, you know, I've been around for a long time. Like, that's, that's a precious thing. Like, the village elder is a role we always had. And I'm. I am here today. I'll just be straightforward about it because I stumbled when I was 26 into a longevity group where most of the members were 70 or 80. And I learned from them. And my friend Mike was 88 years old and he was on the board of directors for this longevity group. It's called the Silicon Valley Health Institute, still running. And Mike would call me at 11:30 at night, just full of passion and excited, all these ideas. I'm like, man, this guy has more energy than me. Like, I want to know what he does. And, and these elders taught me what at the time was called orthomolecular medicine and was the emergence of functional medicine and the longevity movement. I wouldn't have been able to do biohacking had I not just been fortunate to have friends more than twice my age, actually three times my age. So I, I just would encourage you if you want to model for healthy aging, like going out with Mark or anyone else who's find someone in their 90s whose brain works, like Eric Kandel in, in New York. Nobel Prize winner for neuroplasticity. My God, the wisdom. In one hour of conversation with that man. Like, whoa. So this is a call for everyone you need to not have dementia so that when you're a hundred, you'll be the elder, and you will know so much cool stuff, and you'll have suffered a lot learning all the things you learned. And every time you can tell someone who's 20, here's what's coming, and here's how to avoid it, that is one of the coolest things you can ever do. So sign up for that. Like, that's why little empty boxes really matters to me.

Oh, man, I love to hear that. Yeah. I mean, we're all in this together, and I think so in so far as we can continue to light a candle for one another in this, you know, weird time that we seem to be sharing a timeline, you know, together, I think that that's. Yeah, that's the best that we can do, you know, I like it.

All right, guys. Littleemptyboxes.com Check it out. Totally, totally worth your time. And I have a favor to ask of you. If you're listening to this on YouTube, subscribe. And if you're listening to this on whatever podcast platform you like, just make sure that you follow the podcast and you're subscribed because it helps you know when the next cool episode comes out, and it helps me show other people that this show is worth your time and their time. So I truly appreciate every subscription. You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey.